Author Topic: aparently, adults want to go to programs too  (Read 31542 times)

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Offline T-Rex

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #120 on: August 15, 2010, 12:28:45 PM »
Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
I am confused.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #121 on: August 15, 2010, 01:14:58 PM »
Quote from: "T-Rex"
Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
I am confused.
See the following previous post, just a few back... Perhaps ya missed it! ;D


    Originally posted on 09 Aug 2010:
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "DannyB II"
    Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
    Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
    Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

    I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way.  :D
    [/list]
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    Offline Ursus

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    Services set for 2 who died in Ariz. sweat lodge
    « Reply #122 on: August 15, 2010, 01:28:02 PM »
    The Daily Courier
    10/14/2009 9:57:00 PM

    Services set for 2 who died in Ariz. sweat lodge
    The Associated Press

    SEDONA - Memorial services have been set for two people who died after being overcome in a sauna-like sweat lodge near Sedona.

    Services are scheduled Saturday morning at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, N.Y., for 38-year-old Kirby Brown and late Saturday afternoon at the Hubbard Lodge in Milwaukee for 40-year-old James Shore.

    Authorities say Brown, Shore and more than 50 other people attending a retreat were crowded into a sweat lodge for more than two hours on Oct. 8.

    Nineteen others were treated at hospitals. One remains in critical condition and another was in good condition. A third patient was released.

    Authorities are trying to determine if criminal negligence played a role. No charges have been filed.


    © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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    Offline T-Rex

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    Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
    « Reply #123 on: August 15, 2010, 01:41:43 PM »
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Quote from: "T-Rex"
    Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
    I am confused.
    See the following previous post, just a few back... Perhaps ya missed it! ;D


      Originally posted on 09 Aug 2010:
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
      Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
      Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

      I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way.  :D
      [/list]


      OK I don't get it, please help me out. I asked a question and you sent me to a different poster that asked a question that somewhat resembles my question.
      I am seriously asking a question, why are you cataloging all this material??
      You have been redundant with your postings and this incident happened a year ago.
      Does fornits have a purpose for all this information?
      I will say this, you really did not answer Danny's question nor mine in so far as Fornits need for this information, is fornits going to move into the adult special workshop arena.
      I have no judgment on this either way. I am not looking for confrontation, please I am just asking thoughtful questions, for my general knowledge.
      Thanks for answering any questions, you can.
      « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

      Offline Ursus

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #124 on: August 17, 2010, 02:04:17 AM »
      Quote from: "T-Rex"
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "T-Rex"
      Not to be confrontational but what is the purpose of posting a incident that happened over a year ago, we are well aware of the story going back to your first posting. Is this for archival reasons for this Web Site. Some of the posting are redundant stories copied by the same poster, Ursus.
      I am confused.
      See the following previous post, just a few back... Perhaps ya missed it! ;D


        Originally posted on 09 Aug 2010:
        Quote from: "Ursus"
        Quote from: "DannyB II"
        Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
        Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
        Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

        I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way.  :D
        [/list]
        OK I don't get it, please help me out. I asked a question and you sent me to a different poster that asked a question that somewhat resembles my question.
        I am seriously asking a question, why are you cataloging all this material??
        You have been redundant with your postings and this incident happened a year ago.
        Does fornits have a purpose for all this information?
        I will say this, you really did not answer Danny's question nor mine in so far as Fornits need for this information, is fornits going to move into the adult special workshop arena.
        I have no judgment on this either way. I am not looking for confrontation, please I am just asking thoughtful questions, for my general knowledge.
        Thanks for answering any questions, you can.
        Actually, I think I answered Danny's question quite well. It is certainly your and Danny's prerogative to disagree with my take on that issue. However, just because you don't like or agree with my answer ... doesn't mean that the question was not addressed.

        See also Buzz's post in the Suicide thread, emphasis added:

          Originally posted on 16 Aug 2010:
          Quote from: "BuzzKill"
          Understanding LGAT, what it is, how it works and why it is so dangerous, is very important to understanding how some of these programs operate and grow. Its covered pretty well in the book: Cults in our Midst. There is quite a bit on Rick Ross' web site too. ISAC used to have a bunch of links on the topic. I guess someone needs to try and recreate that links resource.
          [/list]

          As far as posting articles is concerned, I'm just doing my wee part for the Cassandra Project, that's all...  ;D
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          Offline Ursus

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          Resort near Sedona had previous sweat lodge incident
          « Reply #125 on: August 17, 2010, 02:31:44 AM »
          So... I take it this wasn't the first time that folk were carted off to the emergency room from one of James "Death" Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" bake-offs!


          [There are a ton of comments on this article, too many to post. I also suspect that they've been heavily moderated...]

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          The Arizona Republic
          Resort near Sedona had previous sweat lodge incident

          By JJ Hensley - Oct. 15, 2009 12:00 AM

          The scene that unfolded outside a sweat lodge at a remote compound near Sedona was not the first time paramedics responded to one of James Arthur Ray's seminars at the Angel Valley Spiritual Retreat Center.

          Records released Wednesday show firefighters also were called to the center for a sweat-lodge-related illness in mid-October 2005.

          Amayra Hamilton, one of the retreat's owners, said it was another Ray retreat.

          The records show paramedics treated a 42-year-old man who was unconscious after spending time in a sweat lodge. The man was taken to Verde Valley Medical Center about 20 minutes later. Hamilton said the man returned the next day.

          As for the events that left two dead and four hospitalized last week, records that the Verde Valley Fire District released Wednesday depict a scene that tested the resources of the emergency responders in the Sedona area.

          By the time the legion of ambulances, fire engines and helicopters reached the remote area at about 7:40 p.m. Thursday, emergency workers found "multiple people lying on the ground around a sweat lodge needing medical condition," according to reports.

          In addition to two patients in cardiac arrest, some were lying on the ground unconscious and others were "walking around not feeling well," according to reports.

          Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, were later pronounced dead at Verde Valley Medical Center. Services for both will be Saturday.

          More people who were in the sweat lodge had moved to the retreat center's dining hall and, according to Angel Valley and Ray's spokesman, didn't need any medical attention. Eight of those people later went to emergency rooms in Sedona and Cottonwood after paramedics assessed them.

          Others were feeling ill, but the doctor in charge of the outdoor triage scene determined that those who were not critical were "all becoming better fast" and instead recommended they call 911 or go to the hospital if they started to feel sick.

          The reports didn't say what caused all of the people to get sick, although authorities have ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning. Investigators have said there were more than 60 people in the 415-square-foot enclosure.

          Kim Moore of Verde Valley Ambulance Co. was one of the emergency-medical people called to the scene last week. She said one of her patients had burns. People didn't want to talk about what happened because the event was intended to be a personal spiritual experience.

          "The people weren't talking about it, the ones who could talk," she said.

          Ray stuck to his schedule of events this week. He told a Los Angeles-area seminar Tuesday night that his advisers told him not to, but he wanted to keep his commitments.

          Ray had another seminar scheduled for Wednesday and also was scheduled to begin his two-day World Wealth Summit in San Diego on Friday. His Web site says the two-day event costs nearly $1,000. Authorities said people at the Sedona event paid more than $9,000 for the five days of lectures and exercises that culminated with the sweat-lodge event.

          Howard Bragman, Ray's spokesman, said Ray wouldn't comment on the ongoing investigation.

          "There's more questions than answers right now," he said.

          Of the four people hospitalized after Thursday's events, two remained at Flagstaff Medical Center on Wednesday afternoon, with one patient in good condition and one in critical condition.

          The family of Liz Neuman released a statement that said she remained in a coma in critical condition.

          "Liz is still fighting hard and her family asks for everyone to keep her in their thoughts and prayers," according to the statement.


          Copyright © 2010, azcentral.com.
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          Offline T-Rex

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #126 on: August 17, 2010, 05:13:30 PM »
          Ursus,
          I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
          I am genuinely interested.
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          Offline Ursus

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #127 on: August 17, 2010, 10:08:13 PM »
          Quote from: "T-Rex"
          Ursus,
          I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
          I am genuinely interested.
          And I thought I had addressed your question in my post above. If you are asking about the organization of such material within this website, etc., you'd best take up such questions with Ginger...
          « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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          Offline DannyB II

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #128 on: August 17, 2010, 10:56:21 PM »
          Quote from: "Ursus"
          Quote from: "T-Rex"
          Ursus,
          I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
          I am genuinely interested.
          And I thought I had addressed your question in my post above. If you are asking about the organization of such material within this website, etc., you'd best take up such questions with Ginger...

          I don't know if you actually stay up at night and practice being a dumbass but your darn good at it. Boy I bet you get a big woody just being as stubborn as you can be.
          Once again, for you dumbass....no need to answer, just want to say it.
          WHY DO YOU POST ALL THE SHIT YOU DO EVERYDAY???
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          Offline Ursus

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #129 on: August 18, 2010, 12:30:18 AM »
          Quote from: "DannyB II"
          Quote from: "Ursus"
          Quote from: "T-Rex"
          Ursus,
          I am not disagreeing with what you are doing here or on any other thread my question is why are you doing the posting. Is this something that goes into a archive, wiki, or whatever. I really don't know. I have never asked the question before so I thought I would ask now.
          I am genuinely interested.
          And I thought I had addressed your question in my post above. If you are asking about the organization of such material within this website, etc., you'd best take up such questions with Ginger...
          I don't know if you actually stay up at night and practice being a dumbass but your darn good at it. Boy I bet you get a big woody just being as stubborn as you can be.
          Once again, for you dumbass....no need to answer, just want to say it.
          WHY DO YOU POST ALL THE SHIT YOU DO EVERYDAY???
          Lol, Danny... Such vitriol! Do you really get that hot and bothered 'bout somebody's posts ... that have nothing to do with you?

          Or... perhaps they do. In addition to being a diehard fan of the Mankind Project, do you also perchance subscribe to James "Death" Ray's brand of "spiritual warrioring?"
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          Offline DannyB II

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #130 on: August 19, 2010, 12:04:33 AM »
          Quote
          Ursus wrote:
          Lol, Danny... Such vitriol! Do you really get that hot and bothered 'bout somebody's posts ... that have nothing to do with you?
          Or... perhaps they do. In addition to being a diehard fan of the Mankind Project, do you also perchance subscribe to James "Death" Ray's brand of "spiritual warrioring?"

          You do understand how stupid this post of your sounds. You started the threads and you post on them everyday.

          I now have nothing to do with what you post, HHhhhhmmmmmm. Wow your universe is growing everyday.
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          Offline Ursus

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          Sweat Lodge deaths now a homicide case
          « Reply #131 on: August 25, 2010, 09:02:09 PM »
          The Daily Courier
          10/15/2009 3:46:00 PM

          Sweat Lodge deaths now a homicide case
          By Lisa Irish · The Daily Courier

          The investigation into the two deaths and numerous injuries that occurred during a James Arthur Ray "Spiritual Warrior" seminar at the Angel Valley Retreat near Sedona has turned from a death investigation into a homicide investigation, said Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said.

          "Because of information that we have obtained from interviews from participants in this most recent "Spiritual Warrior" seminar and from other past participants in them, we have elevated the investigation from an accidental death investigation to a homicide investigation," Waugh said.

          Sheriff's detectives executed search warrants earlier this week at James Ray International's offices in Carlsbad, Calif., with help from Carlsbad Police Department officers, Waugh said.

          "Detectives when they exercised that search warrant were looking for medical information on participants of the current Spiritual Warrior event and also other previous events," Waugh said. "We're also trying to determine if documentation exists on how to construct sweat lodges and the proper use of those lodges. Additionally, documentation on whether participants were advised of the risks before or during the Spiritual Warrior program," Waugh said.

          Waugh said investigators will focus on Ray and any other person who may have played a role in the deaths of James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, New York.

          Waugh said his office would like all participants who have knowledge of the Spiritual Warrior seminar at Angel Valley Retreat, or who have experienced something similar, to contact the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office by e-mail at http://www.ycsoaz.gov or Yavapai Silent Witness 1-800-939-3232.


          © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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          Offline iamartsy

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #132 on: August 26, 2010, 06:37:43 PM »
          I admit that I almost attended a sweat lodge two weeks ago. Then, during lunch the day before, a friend that had attended two years prior told me not to go due to my medical problems. I immediately canceled!

          I have adrenal problems, and had asked the "doctor" that ran it if I should do it. He said, "Why yes, I see no reason for you not to".

          Two nights ago I investigated this "doctor" further. I read between the lines of his CV, and guess what I found? It appears that he has been kicked out of every residency program he ever attended. I had asked him about his latest move to the NE, and he me brushed me off. I now know. He obviously, was discovered to be a QUACK, and I was damn near a SUCKER! The guy that discouraged me from doing the sweat lodge had gotten ill during the one he attended. August in the Southwest is hotter than Hell! Why make it even hotter. I am embarrassed to admit any of this. I think I would do damn near anything to get off of my numerous meds I take daily, but I don't want to die doing it. I actually like life too much for that! On top of it current state of residence is a constant sweat lodge!

          I am sick of hearing about herbs, potions, etc. What do people think meds are derived from? Simply, look at penicillin!
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          Offline Whooter

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #133 on: August 26, 2010, 07:02:48 PM »
          I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge.  Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic.  We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals.  We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember  feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

          Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.  

          I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck,  but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this.  Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.



          ...
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          Offline Anne Bonney

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          Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
          « Reply #134 on: August 27, 2010, 10:17:37 AM »
          Quote from: "Whooter"
          I think as we all read through these posts we should try to separate out the sweat lodge from the person running the sweat lodge.  Sweat lodges themselves can be very therapeutic.  We use to vacation on the Canadian border and would build a Sweat Lodge. We covered it in old blankets after the fire was really hot and filled it with stones. We were all teenagers for the most part and others who were vacationing and also some locals.  We use to smoke and try to solve all the world’s problems. If we got too hot we would jump in the lake and then go back in the lodge. I remember  feeling so good afterwards. We slept like babies.

          Looking back the magical effect was probably caused by heat, a lack of oxygen to the brain along with getting high.  

          I could see how someone would try to capitalize on that and try to make a buck,  but I think this James Ray guy showed us all that there needs to be some controls placed around places like this.  Its scary how people like him can get so many others to follow his directions like sheep.


          Yes, but that's not what we're dealing with here.   A simple sweat lodge without the psycho-babble LGAT bullshit isn't inherently dangerous, provided they have qualified medical help in case of heatstroke or the like.  Just as there is a difference between a traditional boarding school or summer camp and what the TTI does.  Get rid of the mindfuck and traditional boarding schools or regular summer camps aren't systemically harmful.  Amazing!   ::)
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