Author Topic: aparently, adults want to go to programs too  (Read 27573 times)

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Offline Whooter

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #60 on: July 01, 2010, 03:40:39 PM »
Something else to think about......Its just a sweat lodge for most of these people.  Like a trip to the spa.  They see it as a weekend of cleansing, not a life style.  It gets them away from their lives and gives them something to talk about at their next social event.  The $9-10,000 cost is meaningless to most of them.  The relatively high cost insures everyone attending that they will be hanging around with a certain social class and the cost eliminates the chances of having to sit next to some uneducated sweaty guys drinking beer they snuck into the lodge.  If they charged only $500 for the weekend not one of those people would have signed up.



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Offline Ursus

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in the company of "harmonic like-minded individuals"
« Reply #61 on: July 01, 2010, 04:28:00 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Something else to think about......Its just a sweat lodge for most of these people.  Like a trip to the spa.  They see it as a weekend of cleansing, not a life style.  It gets them away from their lives and gives them something to talk about at their next social event.  The $9-10,000 cost is meaningless to most of them.  The relatively high cost insures everyone attending that they will be hanging around with a certain social class and the cost eliminates the chances of having to sit next to some uneducated sweaty guys drinking beer they snuck into the lodge.  If they charged only $500 for the weekend not one of those people would have signed up.
Hmm. I disagree that it was "just a sweat lodge" for most of them, though I'd venture that your observation might well hold true for some of them.

If it was just a "weekend of cleansing," chances are, more than a few would have bailed when they began to believe they were dying. From what I've read, this sentiment was voiced by a number of folk during this experience. What caused them to stay, despite their bodies' signals of distress, and contrary to all common sense? James Ray's exhortations to push through the physical discomfort and to transcend it, that's what. And he — being the guru of "spiritual" wealth whose wisdom they were seeking — is who they listened to. Not to themselves.

IMO, for most of them, this was a several-day LGAT, filled more or less with 'round the clock indoctrination via a variety of means, in the company of "harmonic like-minded individuals." But sure, there *is* a certain elitism to that type of "spirituality."
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Offline Froderik

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Re: in the company of "harmonic like-minded individuals"
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2010, 04:46:21 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
they began to believe they were dying.
No pain, no gain.  :clown:
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Offline Whooter

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #63 on: July 01, 2010, 04:48:57 PM »
A lot of people love that stuff.  My inlaws still talk about how much it changed their lives and how good they felt for a few days after they attended est.  They realize it was a “mind fuck” but they liked it.  I am sure this guru had everyone on the hook and believing what he told them (not what their own bodies were).  If you have confidence in someone then its not hard to let them take over for awhile.  The LGAT, if it was used, was probably part of the high leading up to the sweat lodge.  The guy just screwed up or didn’t know what he was doing.

We people who dropped acid in the 60’s and 70’s knew we risked flashbacks or a bad trip or even death.  Maybe that was the lure.  We were careful not to do it often as to preserve as many brain cells as possible.  But it was fun looking forward to doing it again and recalling the experiences we had together.



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Offline Ursus

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Comments for "Sweat lodge victim's family says she was..."
« Reply #64 on: July 01, 2010, 05:06:42 PM »
Comments left for the above article, "Sweat lodge victim's family says she was in shape" (by Felicia Fonseca; Oct. 10, 2009; The Daily Courier/AP):


Article comment by: Cosmopolitan · Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2009
    Very sad story. However, i am shocked that the people who participating did not know the basics of saunas and related heat exposure to humans.A healthy person should never stay in a Finnish,Swedish sauna more than 10 minutes.It is a common knowledge to all who enjoy saunas. Well, we'll see the Sheriffs investigation results in a future. ...

(Site administrator's note: A portion of this comment was removed because it violated our Terms of Use Agreement, specifically paragraph one (1) of the Use of Service section: "You may not post, upload, or transmit any material or links to material that is libelous, defamatory, false, misleading, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, threatening, harassing, discriminatory, racist, vulgar, invasive of another's privacy, illegal, constitutes hate speech, or harms minors in any way.)[/list]
Article comment by: my salvation is free and my God is with me always · Posted: Monday, October 12, 2009
    True spiritual enlightenment doesn't carry a monetary price. A true spiritual leader doesn't hit the road after collecting the money when something like this happens. In fact, something like this wouldn't be happening at all...It's a shame these scams persist.
Article comment by: Happy now? · Posted: Monday, October 12, 2009
    I guess I don't get it. Isn't the whole purpose of this thing to "connect" with some higher level of existance? So why is everyone so upset? These people have achieved what they were looking for (we can only assume). I don't personally think there is anything more than what we have here and now, but from what I hear others saying they can't seem to wait to move on to the "afterlife" or whatever it may be. If it is so wonderful why is everyone so upset when someone dies?


© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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Offline Ursus

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Family Says New Yorker Kirby Brown was in Great Shape...
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2010, 09:25:00 PM »
This version published by CBS is pretty much the same (as the previous article); however, it does give some additional details on James Shore:

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cbsnews.com CRIMESIDER
October 12, 2009 9:41 AM

Family Says New Yorker Kirby Brown was in Great Shape before Mysterious Sweat Lodge Death
Posted by Edecio Martinez


Photo: Kirby Brown.
(AP Photo/Family of Kirby Brown)


PRESCOTT, Ariz. (CBS/AP) Kirby Brown seemed to be in the prime of her life. Her family says the 38-year-old New York woman who died after sitting in a sauna-like sweat lodge at a scenic Arizona resort was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," took self-improvement seriously and had a passion for art.

Brown of Westtown, N.Y., was one of two people who died Thursday evening after being overcome in the crudely built hut during a spiritual cleansing ceremony. Authorities on Saturday identified the other victim as 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee, who served as director of business development at an Internet marketing company in his hometown.

Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, suffering from burns, dehydration, respiratory arrest, kidney failure or elevated body temperature. Most were soon released, but one remained in critical condition Saturday.

Brown had no pre-existing health conditions that would have kept her from participating in an otherwise safe activity, said cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley. That two people died and 19 others became ill at the Angel Valley Retreat Center indicates that "something went horribly wrong."

"Our only thought is shock, sadness and surprise," McFeeley said. "There will be plenty of time to react to the truth of what happened here, but we believe it is pointless to be angry or to place blame or to make assumptions before we understand what occurred here."

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday that his detectives were focusing on self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role. Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state.

Ray is a polished self-help guru who was appeared on Oprah and Larry King, according to his own website.

Ray rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life." Ray has held an annual event at the resort for seven years without incident, according to property owner Amayra Hamilton.

Police are now looking at the large number of people who were asked to sit in a 415-square-foot super-heated structure. The 55 to 65 participants had fasted for 36 hours before sitting in the temporary sweat lodge. Authorities said participants were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire time.

The group entered the structure at 3 p.m. Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as Brown and Shore, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

Matt Collins, who knew Shore since seventh grade, described his friend as a wonderful husband and father whose life revolved around his three kids. "Everybody who got to know him absolutely loved him," Collins told The Associated Press.

Collins said he was stunned to hear of Shore's death, and the family remained in shock.

"Right now we're trying to focus on making sure that his wife, his children are comforted during this time," he said.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests. Authorities have ruled out carbon monoxide poising as the cause.

Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Geneseo, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.


Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.
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Offline minn kota

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Offline Ursus

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About James Ray
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2010, 10:40:34 AM »
Quote from: "minn kota"
http://saltydroid.info/who-killed-colleen-conaway/
http://saltydroid.info/james-arthur-ray ... favorites/
Such a contrast ... from what's on his website (!):

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About James Ray



James Arthur Ray is transforming the way the world thinks. As an internationally-renowned Personal Success Strategist, Visionary and New York Times Best-Selling Author who has traveled the globe dedicating over two decades of his life to studying the thoughts, actions, and habits of those who create true wealth in every area of their life, James delivers his practical teachings to hundreds of thousands of individuals and business leaders every year.

James is President and CEO of his own multi-million dollar corporation, James Ray International (JRI), which was named to Inc. Magazine's coveted Inc. 500 list of America's fastest-growing private companies in the September 2009 issue, reaching a remarkable 547.4% growth over the previous three years. JRI is dedicated to mentoring individuals to create wealth in all areas of their lives: financially, relationally, mentally, physically and spiritually. James' most recent book, Harmonic Wealth: The Secret of Attracting the Life You Want, reached number five on the New York Times Best-Sellers list in its first week in print.

Throughout his life, James Arthur Ray has studied and been exposed to a wide diversity of teachings and teachers – from his collegiate learning and the schools of the corporate world, to the ancient cultures of Peru, Egypt and the Amazon. Armed with this comprehensive and diverse background in behavioral sciences, coupled with his experience as a successful, entrepreneur, and an avid thirst for spiritual knowledge, James boasts the unique and powerful ability to blend the practical and mystical into a usable and easy-to-access formula for achieving true wealth across all aspects of life.

Seeking to share his unique way of living with individuals around the world, James presents his insights at public appearances and seminars over 200 days each year. His Journey of Power® events fuse together the wealth-building principles, success strategies, and the teachings of all great spiritual traditions and practices that he has experienced and assimilated over the last 25 years.

James Arthur Ray has made multiple appearances on The Oprah Winfrey Show and Larry King Live, and is a recurring guest on NBC's top-rated national morning show, Today. He has been featured in numerous publications, both regionally and nationally, including a feature article in a March 2009 issue of The New York Times on the growing success of his Harmonic Wealth Weekends and an April 2008 profile in Fortune Magazine.


© 2010 James Ray
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Offline Ursus

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Milwaukee Man's Death At Sweat Lodge Still...
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2010, 10:45:24 AM »
Here's an article from Wisconsin, from which James Shore originated...

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WISN.com
Milwaukee Man's Death At Sweat Lodge Still Under Investigation
Arizona Police Trying To Figure Out Cause Of Death

POSTED: 6:07 pm CDT October 12, 2009
UPDATED: 7:05 pm CDT October 12, 2009




MILWAUKEE -- The family of the Milwaukee man who died at an Arizona retreat last week is waiting for answers.

James Shore, 40, of Bay View, was one of two who died during a spiritual cleansing exercise called a sweat lodge.

Arizona police are still investigating and can't say if it was the heat or toxic fumes that killed Shore and a New York woman. James Shore attended the retreat run by popular motivational speaker James Arthur Ray. Ray called it the "spiritual warrior," which he described as "a heroic quest for higher consciousness."

More than 60 people paid $10,000 each to attend Ray's retreat at a resort near Sedona, Ariz. The retreat involved a 36-hour fast, followed by a sweat lodge. The sweat lodge is a Native American tradition, a spiritual sauna of sorts, where participants gather under a makeshift tent and pour water over hot rocks. 40 others ended up getting sick while at the retreat.

"We attempted to interview Mr. Ray at the scene. He refused to talk to us," said Sheriff Steve Waugh of Yavapai County, Ariz.

Shore was the married father of three who lived in Bay View. Shore also operated internet marketing businesses from an office on Capitol Drive in Milwaukee. No one there would comment.

"We are shocked and saddened by James' sudden death. Our primary focus now is to take care of our family and friends. We will continue to grieve for the loss of James and honor his memory as a dedicated husband, father, brother and son. We are awaiting the results of the investigation," Shore's younger brother said in a written statement.

The incident prompted criticism from some who question gathering that many people in such a small space, including Mario Black Wolf who owns a sweat lodge.

"Everybody has the right to believe and practice the way they wish to, but when it endangers the lives of others, or when you have to pay for it, that's not a spiritual belief," Black Wolf said.

Investigators say it will be weeks before they can determine if criminal charges are warranted against event organizers. They intend to interview Ray, who's only comment has been on his Facebook and Twitter pages where he wrote, "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."


Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.
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Offline Ursus

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Comments for "Milwaukee Man's Death At Sweat Lodge Still..."
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2010, 11:17:54 PM »
Comment left for the above article, "Milwaukee Man's Death At Sweat Lodge Still Under Investigation" (Oct. 12, 2009, WISN.com):


manystarswoman · Oct. 14, 2009 2:08pm
    OK- now I have heard it all- people paying 10 grand to go to a sweat lodge and fast. This guy is rediculous. You can attend a sweat lodge here in Alberta and all that is expected is an offering- not to the medicine man but to the "spirits" (or angels, grandfathers and grandmother spirits who help). The offering is something from the heart- not necessarily and very infrequently from the bank.....I have come with only a rock to offer, you give what you can. When you are asked for money BEWARE- this person is probably a fraudster....


Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.
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Offline Ursus

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Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru...
« Reply #70 on: July 04, 2010, 12:29:52 AM »
CBSnews.com · CRIMESIDER
October 12, 2009 10:20 AM

Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray

Posted by Neil Katz  


Photo: James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

PRESCOTT, Ariz. (CBS/AP) Police have now turned their attention to television self-help guru James Arthur Ray in their investigation of an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony that left two dead and 19 hospitalized.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said Saturday that his detectives were focusing on the self-help expert and his staff as they try to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the tragic deaths at the Angel Valley Retreat Center in Sedona, Ariz., on Oct. 9.

The town is a desert vacation spot two hours north of Phoenix that is popular with those seeking meditation and spiritual health.

Waugh said Ray refused to speak with authorities and has since left the state.

"We will continue this investigation down every road that is possible to find out if there is culpability on anybody relative to the deaths of these individuals," Waugh said. He said it could be three to four weeks before they knew if criminal charges would be filed.

Ray's recent postings on his Twitter account said he was "shocked and saddened" by the tragedy.

"My deep heartfelt condolences to family and friends of those who lost their lives," he wrote. "I am spending the weekend in prayer and meditation for all involved in this difficult time; and I ask you to join me in doing the same."

Ray claims to help people achieve both spiritual and financial wealth. "The real key to creating the life of your dreams is achieving true Harmonic Wealth?," he says on his Web site, trademark included.

The self-styled success guru, who has appeared on Oprah, Larry King and the movie "The Secret," says people are ready for his wisdom if "You simply (and deeply) want to make more money and become more successful" and "want to double, triple, even multiply by ten the size of your business."

It's not clear what type of financial wizardry was being taught inside the 415-square-foot homemade sweat lodge when a 38-year-old female surfer and a 40-year-old father of three dropped dead.

Ray's company, James Ray International, is based in Carlsbad, Calif. Ray's publicist, Howard Bragman, expressed condolences in a statement Friday but declined to speak about the deaths. Bragman didn't return a call for additional comment Saturday.

The Angel Valley Retreat Center is owned by Michael and Amayra Hamilton, who rented it to Ray for a five-day "Spiritual Warrior" retreat that promised to "absolutely change your life."

On Saturday, Amayra Hamilton said Ray has held the event at the resort for seven years, and there never have been any problems.

Hamilton said the resort remains closed to the public. The sweat lodge has been dismantled and a ceremony was conducted for those affected by Thursday's incident.

"The whole situation is very traumatizing for everybody," she said.

The people at Ray's retreat, whose ages ranged from 30 to the 60s, paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend.

Ray and his staff constructed the temporary sweat lodge with a wood frame and covered it with layers of tarps and blankets, Waugh said. The sweat lodge — a structure commonly used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events — was 53 inches high at the center and about 30 inches high around the outer edges.

Between 55 and 65 people were crowded into the 415-square-foot space during a two-hour period that included various spiritual exercises led by Ray, Waugh said. Every 15 minutes, a flap was raised to allow more volcanic rocks the size of cantaloupes to be brought inside.

Authorities said participants were highly encouraged but not forced to remain in the sweat lodge for the entire time.

Joseph Bruchac, author of "The Native American Sweat Lodge: History and Legends," called the number of participants in the lodge "appalling."

"If you put people in a restrictive, airtight structure, you are going to use up all oxygen," he said by phone Saturday from his home in Saratoga Springs, N.Y. "And if you're doing a sweat, you're going to use it up that much faster."

American Indian sweat lodges typically hold about 12 people and are covered with blankets made of natural materials, such as cotton or wool, and the air flow isn't restricted, he said.

"I don't see how the person running that lodge could have been aware of the health and well-being of that many people," he said.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet Thursday morning. After various seminars, they entered the sweat lodge lightly dressed at 3 p.m.

Two hours later, a woman dialed 911 to say that two people, whom Waugh identified as 38-year old New Yorker Kirby Brown and 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee, did not have a pulse and weren't breathing.

According to a family spokesperson, Brown was an avid surfer and hiker who was "in top shape," before the mysterious sweat lodge death.


Photo: Kirby Brown in undated family image. (AP Photo/Family of Kirby Brown)

A nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived, Waugh said. Shore and Brown were pronounced dead when they arrived at a hospital.

Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said authorities were checking whether there was a lag time between the first signs of medical distress and the emergency call.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted Friday, but the results weren't disclosed pending additional tests. Authorities have ruled out carbon monoxide poising as the cause.

Matt Collins, who knew Shore since seventh grade, described his friend as a wonderful husband and father whose life revolved around his three kids. "Everybody who got to know him absolutely loved him," Collins told The Associated Press.

Brown, a graduate of the State University of New York at Geneseo, had two sisters who recently got married, two new nephews and a focus on "making the world more beautiful for someone, not only with her art but with her heart," family spokesman Tom McFeeley said. Although the family is saddened by her death, he said Brown created a roadmap by which others should live.

"She was the least selfish, kindest person I knew," he said.

McFeeley said Brown had attended similar retreats, although he wasn't certain whether any were hosted by Ray. He said Brown, who grew up in Brooklyn and Westtown and spent time in Mexico, saw the outing as a chance to continue on a positive path in life.


Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.
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Offline Ursus

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Comments for "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation...," #s 1-30
« Reply #71 on: July 05, 2010, 08:49:07 PM »
This set of comments includes not only a reference to the aforementioned mysterious suicide of Colleen Conaway (whilst attending one of James Ray's seminars), but also former James Ray followers who want their money back!

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Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 1-30:


• by RenHombre October 12, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
    It was just a matter of time before a disaster of this magnitude occurred. There are too many "white men playing Indians" today, and putting lots of unassuming people at risk.

    Having been in sweat lodges run by QUALIFIED Native American elders, I know it is outright dangerous to put 60 people in a dark sweat lodge because there's no way to keep track of everyone, nor regulate the steam in a safe way (even if they had the right lodge coverings, which they clearly didn't).

    It's no surprise the investigation is now on James Arthur Ray...negligence seems so apparent, and meanwhile, his ego and aggressive self marketing tactics are out there on the Web for everyone to see.

    I would be fine if this guy would simply stay on a hotel stage like the rest of the self-help gurus, and take the easy money that comes their way from the new-age 'searchers.'

    However, it's appalling to me that a guy like Ray can hijack once-sacred rituals of Native Americans and charge $10,000 for a retreat that is based on them.
    • by meroe_9 October 12, 2009 10:48 PM EDT
      Sweat Lodge is a sacred tradition of many indigenous cultures (including Eastern European). It is not exclusive to Native Americans. I am of Native American descent and I accept the coming together of all of my brothers and sisters no matter what race they are incarnated into.

      I do feel a great loss because of this tragedy. This was a poorly thought out and executed event that lead to devastating consequences.
    • by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:41 AM EDT
      I believe we all have essential and meaningful, and unique gifts to give and share with others in this life - gifts that are authentically ours - gifts we are born with, gifts we are given. I feel it is our responsibility to use these gifts for the increase of love, of awareness, of healing, and of connection.

      This is a story of someone allowing their innate gifts to be guided by their lower nature and this always causes harm.

      My heart goes out to all the loving, wonderful, open-hearted people who were impacted by this event - especially the attendees and their families, and those left behind the people who left their bodies.

      They have provided such an important gift for all of us in the ending of their lives...Be fearless and follow the Knowingness of your OWN Heart, be guided by that which expands love and healing. Take your power back from those who seek to exploit you in the name of spiritual evolution or financial freedom, or whatever the buzzword of the day is!

      It is so very revealing to see how people respond to tragic events we are responsible for creating...

      how we respond essentially reveals our level of consciousness and our ability to live our Love, our Connection.

      If I were pretending to be a GURU and "my followers" were willing to trust me to guide them into their transformation - I would stand by their side, regardless of the circumstances I created that actually led to people dying. I cannot believe that James would text such awful, disconnected, harmful responses to the tragedy that he caused -

      Did you see the tweets that James left the night that his followers died?

      These were posted on James Arthur Ray?s Twitter account during the Spiritual Warrior Event WHICH HE TRIED TO DELETE! Yet, these tweets can still be found on searching twitter!

      "JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

      THIS WAS HIS TWEET THE NIGHT THAT HIS EVENT KILLED TWO PEOPLE! AND INJURED NEARLY 1/3 OF HIS "FOLLOWERS." Sounds like he was sitting comfortably in his hotel room while he left more than 60 of his followers traumatized, several- 29 or so injured and in the hospital, and two dead. He went to the comfort of his hotel, and his dis-connected mind to spout "spiritual" things - in complete denial of the damage he created!

      " JamesARay: Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next."

      " JamesARay: SPW day 4. Your actions often speak louder than your words. A life of honor is living you values above and beyond your moods."

      IF JAMES HAD ANY CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE WITHIN HIM HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW HIS FEAR AND REPTILIAN BRAIN INSTINCTS TO FLEE THE SCENE, ABANDON HIS FOLLOWERS AND TO GO INTO SPOUTING SPIRITUAL MUMBO-JUMBO AS YOU CAN SEE AND FEEL FROM HIS TWEETS THE NIGHT OF HIS SO-CALLED "SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" TRAINING.

      IT IS SO EASY TO SAY "that was their destiny, they created their reality."

      Yet, also just as true is the REALITY CHECK lesson that a charasmatic con-man who manipulates people into following him...his "wisdom"...his teaching...his program- promising innocent, vulnerable, good-hearted people that they will receive an end to their pain, a solution to their problems, a transformed life with higher brainwave frequencies, and "financial freedom!" all in the name of feeding his already ridiculous sense of masculine "power" or rather - force equating to dominance, control and the illusion of power.

      listen to your own heart...dear Ones reading this!

      follow the Knowingness within.

      allow your self to be your own savior - as in the end it is only you who can save you and all the "leaders" will abandon you - just when you need them most! They are not here to protect you, save you, help you - they are here to get energy from you to fuel their ego dominant intentions - masked as "spiritual wisdom"

      All is revealed through consciousness...and is palpably evident in response to the events they set in motion.
    [/list]
    • by jntlw October 12, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
      Any guru or preacher who professes to teach you the "how to get wealthy' is a crock. If you are a Chrisitan, money is not your goal and should never be first and foremost. These people were paying to get rich through some bogus guru offering bogus theories and methods and they end up dead. Stop looking to get rich and just be happy in life and work and produce at that which pleases you most and helps society - that is true riches.
      • by Cheryl_Laures October 13, 2009 7:39 PM EDT
        So very true... someone teaching "Spiritual Precepts" is not all about "show me the money." However, Mr. Ray certainly thought his "brain-child-teachings" were worth 10K... probably because HE is so focused on the money. hummmm... makes you wonder just how altruistic and pure are his intentions.

        His intentions seem rather ego-based to me. I've watched him from the sidelines and the "halo-effect" of media attention he received after The Secret was released. And I have only one comment about that, "Pride doth go before a fall."

        As for the safety of his 10K program... As an RN I must say that the RN he hired definitely missed the mark on the schedule of events in the first place. You just DON'T have people fast for 36 hours, give them a buffet breakfast and expect the body to normalize itself after 36 hours of deprivation. Let alone... subject the body to profusely sweating in extreme heat, which pushes the body even further out of balance.

        Sweat lodges or steam saunas are best tolerated when someone is well nourished and more than sufficiently hydrated... in order to tolerate the profound loss of fluids.

        I would guess these folks got in a situation of electrolyte compromise along with their core temperature rising too high for way too long. TWO HOURS?... good grief!

        And as a Spirit centered person, I think my biggest grief is that Mr. Ray hasn't even said he's sorry, or asked for forgiveness of the public on his Twitter posts. No.. instead he's still being the "guru" suggesting everyone join him in meditation. I guess asking for forgiveness would indicate blame and he doesn't want to incriminate himself.

        It's a shame that he's so very willing to fleece people of 10K yet not take responsibility for his actions.

        An author of a book, or cast member in a movie does NOT a Spiritual Adept make. Buyer beware, for there are many like this prowling the market, on the internet and elsewhere.
      • by hogi2 October 20, 2009 11:58 PM EDT
        Being a Christian has nothing to do with this.
      [/list]
      • by all_father October 12, 2009 2:34 PM EDT
        The numbers here are shocking. 60 people in a sweat room with less volume than a small living room! Someone needs to go to jail for this catastrophe. And Ray is first, followed by the Hamiltons. Sad, too, that the participants didn't think about their risk... proof positive that trusting any "guru" can be deadly.
      • by Awakened1 October 12, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
        That's really sad. I knew that guy had bad karma written all over him. Just goes to show you that the "powers that be" don't like it when someone uses their spiritual awareness and rapport w/ people to take advantage of what's supposed to be the most sacred side of people. I hope James Ray has gotten his "message" through meditation he was seeking. Maybe if he stepped outside of himself or his ego for a moment, he would see it plain as day. Come on....9 to 10 GRAND for a spiritual weekend retreat??? 65 people = $650,000! I have also learned that NO ONE should conduct a "sweat" unless they are Native American or have a tribe's blessing to do so and are being assisted. Some Native American's don't do it until they are "called" to. I do have to say, he had it coming to him...James Ray that is. Those people gave their lives, I hope he learns the lesson that they sacrificed themselves for him to learn.
        • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:50 PM EDT
          With that kind of money, one would think these people could have bought some blankets to cover the lodge and maybe a few cases of WATER.
        [/list]
        • by momofthreebo October 12, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
          Self help guro, my butt...He is nothing but a money hungry idiot trying to make a pofit off sacred native traditions. My heart goes out to all the families involved.
        • by TwistedFeather12 October 12, 2009 3:37 PM EDT
          Writer has been working with sweats for over 20 years and have not seen a death. With saying this writer has worked with Elders and people have to know there is a protocol to follow with sweats. Many people use native spirituality as a quick fix to make money.The regultions of having a sweat are earned and having a great abundence of people in the lodge is unnatural. It is with great sadness to the families who have lost their loved ones for a quick fix society for false healing. Please leave the native culture to the First Nations Elders and to the right people who earn the sweat rights. If needing to have a sweat for health please go to a reservation and give tabacco and monetary gift to an Elder for help. Thank you
          • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:45 PM EDT
            Well Said.
          [/list]
          • by Thousandoaks October 12, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
            This is a heartbreaking tragedy and all affected deserve our sympathy. And, yes it should be investigated to learn what went wrong. But accusing or imprisoning someone will not make it better. We aren't 'at risk' because someone hasn't been jailed in this event. Put your focus where it deserves to be; sympathy and support for those affected. Not on a lynching quest to find someone to sacrifice.
            It is so easy to trivialize the leader of this event, and to jealously demonize his success. I'd suggest you first consult those who he has helped through all of his teaching. This event is tragic but it is not James Ray's teaching that caused the deaths.
            There may have been negligence but it is doubtful that it was criminal or with malicious intent. And certainly it was not that way with James Ray or his team. These are good people who have been leading other people to lead more meaningful lives for years now. Stop the bloodlust and just help the healing begin. Now is not the time for hatred.
            • by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 8:02 PM EDT
              He was selling sacred traditions! If his arrest and conviction would put more of these cultural thieves out of business...good!
              Hasn't "American culture" taken away enough from the Indigenous people of this continent???
              They used to jail NDN's for practicing their religion and put their children in boarding schools (that still exist in some areas) to "americanize" them, now these New Agers want to steal the very things the people were crucified for!!
              Enough is enough!
            • by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:28 PM EDT
              I think you are forgetting that he lead the ceremony. Which means he was the LEADER!! which means he was negligent!! Which means, in the world today, that he will have to be accountable for his actions!!

              And to add Rocks every 15 mins. This was no real sweat. Which means he made it up! Which means it was his IDEA, Which means he is responsible for not clearly thinking this through or getting proper advice for this event.

              And to convince people into believing that they have to get through the heat of the sweat!! Something that never, ever would have been done with those who are trained in the REAL Ceremony, which has been done for Thousands of Years!! Means HE IS RESPONSIBLE.

              IF the man is ignoring REALITY, he and his team Are Super Negligent, and it doesn't matter if it was there conscious intentions or NOT. Negligence is Negligence if you are working at it or not!

              We can have all the compassion in the world for him. But he still has to be responsible for his actions, words and where he is taking people who are paying him in TRUST!!
            [/list]
            • by clhs2007 October 12, 2009 7:24 PM EDT
              55-65 people? WOW; Paying for a sweat? Wow, I'm at a loss of words. One of the dumbest things thats ever happened!
            • by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 7:55 PM EDT
              It was with great sadness that I read about the people who died in AZ in a sweat lodge run by an individual who was charging a fair amount of money to his victims.
              No charges have been filed against this person.

              Not that he intended for this to happen. Not at all. His intent was to help these people in spiritual health and his own capital gain.

              The trouble is he was using HIS vision of what is a sacred Native American ceremony. Now people have suffered for his lack of respect of Native traditions.
              He was selling those traditions as if they were some sort of of commodity. I wonder if he also offered Holy Communion and Confession complete with Rosary and the prescribed numbers of Hail Marys?? For these traditions and ceremonies must also be for sale, in his eyes.

              About five years ago, Arvol Looking Horse, a bundle keeper for the Lakota people and several other medicine people, elders and bundle keepers for many nations decreed that Native American ceremony is for NATIVE AMERICANS.
              You may be invited to attend, but the ceremony is to be conducted by NATIVE AMERICANS who are trained. They came to this conclusion after a similar tragedy happened in Redding, CA.

              I absolutely agree with this decree by the Plains Nations elders.

              STOP STEALING TRADITIONS! STOP SELLING TRADITIONS!!
              • by apachepat07 October 14, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
                you cant stop it. know matter what they say. White men will run all kinds of ceremonies. some for money some not. I agree but the question is how do we deal with the problem because like the life it will go on. Believe me I've seen it all living on the west coast. Just pray.
              [/list]
              • by parkrapidsmn October 12, 2009 8:39 PM EDT
                This is not the first time someone has died at a James Arthur Ray seminar.

                On July 26 of this year Colleen died during a James Arthur Ray Creating Absolute Wealth Seminar in San Diego. She had been emotionally broken down, starved and kept awake ungodly amounts of time. During a group "field trip" to Horton Plaza Mall she plunged to the floor from a third level railing.

                Colleen was a happy and succcessful woman. Prior to her death she had absolutely never given any of her friends and co-workers any signs of suicidal thoughts/intentions. She was making future plans...had a positive outlook on life...and was completely healthy.

                Colleen was brainwashed. She fell victim to Large Group Awareness Training. I believe James Arthur Ray and his company completely covered up their involvement in her death.

                There must be others who have been injured ect. by James Arthur Ray either physically, financially or mentally...please, please, please contact officials and tell your story. This must be stopped before more people are hurt!
              •  by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
                I also feel that the Retreat Center should be held accountable for allowing a sweat of that large to be RENTED out to participants of, obviously anyone, who want to rent their Center!!!

                They obviously built the structure, and rented it to Mr. Ray. So in all actuality, they all should be accountable.
              • by ChristopherBlackwell October 12, 2009 10:38 PM EDT
                Another greedy spiritual con man who making money was more important than reasonable safety of his followers. Anyone with sense would never keep anyone in a sweat lodge for so long. Fools running sweat lodges can kill people and con men are always fools when chasing enrichment.

              • by willwalden October 12, 2009 11:09 PM EDT
                Like others here in Sedona I live here and was saddened and angered by this tragedy which could have been avoided. I spoke to some local nurses about this tragedy and they told me there is some sort of loophole in the law that requires only "minimal" medical coverage for an event of this type. Apparently all that is required is to have one nurse on call, and not even necessarily on site, and the organizers are covered according to the insurance companies that deal with this sort of event. $600,000 plus revenue went to the guy and ONE NURSE was paid to be available. No equipment, no ambulance, nothing - just one poor nurse left to deal with whatever happens. This also needs to be looked at and fixed before another one of these guys shows up here.
              • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:21 PM EDT
                I have been working with sweat lodges for more than two decades. I have never seen a death. My Uncle told of this twenty years ago when people begin to sell sage. There was a time my Brothers would have visited this place and asked them to stop...or....?
                Someone running a business like this one in Arizona, offered me thousands of dollars to work for them. This was not the only "warrior camp" to try to solicit this writer. They are dangerous. As for the plastic covering, I would not stick my head into a trash bag and expect to breathe, not for any amount of money...these people did just that. Air, like Traditions should not be sold. Ten Grand is NOT going to manifest air in a trash bag. Obviously, this guy thought he could sell it, and sadly there were people that believed it could be purchased.
                • by SotaMabaTanke October 14, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
                  AHO MITAKUYE OYASIN,Pilamia
                  Thank you couldnt have said it better(plastic???come on folks,this is pure neglegents
                [/list]
                • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:36 PM EDT
                  STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS...that was four times. DOOR !
                • by DeleneSC October 13, 2009 12:31 AM EDT
                  My husband and I took a $750. weekend course from James Ray (not this particular 5 day retreat) and it was wonderful. We were shocked and saddened as everyone here is. James has been doing these retreats (of which the sweat is just one part) since 2003. I think there was carelessness and mistakes were made (too many people and session was too long), leading to tragic results. It is very unfortunate for everyone involved and my heart goes out to the families of the 2 people who died.

                  However, James is not a greedy "bad" person. He truly wants to help people achieve their dreams, but humans DO make mistakes. Tragic of course, but don't assume he is necessarily a bad person who just things of money. I think people here are making assumptions without knowing of his otherwise incredible integrity and knowledge about many different traditions, not just Native American. I also feel for him too because I see how he has improved so many people's lives.

                  Our hearts go out to ALL those affected by those terrible mistakes~yes, even James Ray.
                  • by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:44 AM EDT
                    Well said DeleneSC!!
                  • by NikEst October 16, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
                    If what James Ray preached actually worked, there would be more people talking about it. Instead, we hear "I spent thousands and now I'm just thousands poorer". Please do not say something like "You have to work at it!" because while true, the work you work on should show a glimmer of success early or what you're doing is probably a waste of time.

                    Also, James Ray isn't rich by his preached scheme. His rich because he preaches the scheme. Funny, he doesn't preach that get rich quick idea. He may not be a "bad" person, but he is greedy. Charging thousands per person just so they can hear you talk is greedy. Imagine if teachers could do that, they'd finally be paid something resembling the impact they have on the world.
                  [/list]
                  • by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:42 AM EDT
                    I send out my prayers and sympathies to all affected by this horrible situation, especially to the families of those who died.

                    I have to say it really amazes me that people use their time and energy to write things like so many of the above posts - no one even has all of the facts...we hear and see what the news reports and it may or may not be accurate and we don't even know 100% what caused this tragedy yet other than what appears to be the case. America is about innocent until proven guilty and you all are not the people to decide guilt, that is what the police and law were created to do - so I say leave your condemnation to the proper authorities and use your energy for something POSITIVE and helpful! How about putting energy into something like saying prayers or meditating for all involved or investigating how to send sympathies or something to soothe the families affected or maybe see if there is anything else you can do or say to help this situation versus spewing out negative words and judgments...this world is full of people who focus on retribution or anger about things and that doesn't help any situation...what helps is people taking action to help others rather than using their anger and words for negative purposes!! We're all allowed an opinion but use your minds and opinions wisely based on concrete facts and for the best possible use of the mind we've all been given. Don't get me wrong, I say let justice be served accordingly but by the people who understand & have all of the facts and were hired to do so!
                  • by sshakeri02 October 13, 2009 4:06 AM EDT
                    Thank you everyone for your posts. My prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones. I am one of the naive ones who has paid tens of 1000s of $$$ to attend many seminars of James Ray. I now realize what a big mistake I made. I must say that he is very charismatic and the energy really sucks a person in, especially during one of his high energy, high entertainment value seminars. Tomorrow (Tuesday) I am going to one of his free events to ask for my money back for the seminars since I no longer feel the seminars are in the best interest of my wife or myself. I am one of the few in the James Ray follower camp who actually has an authentic spiritual teacher. I was warned by my spiritual teacher about people like James Ray, but I did not listen... at least until now. My wife and I were oh so very close to attending the "Spiritual Warrior" event. That is the only event we did not purchase. We almost did. I am going to ask for my money back for the seminars in lieu of the recent tragedy. I will be interested to see how he or his office treats my request. Yes, they have waivers that say you are not entitled to a refund after purchasing the seminars, but I will be interested to see whether they honor my request with all the media attention and how everyone is watching his every move now.

                    As my spiritual teacher said when I told him about the $1000s I spent on James Ray's seminars which utilizes techniques drawing on the inner world such as visualizations to achieve worldly success, "...using visualizations and other inner techniques to get money is like raping the inner world. The inner world is for connecting with the sacred and not for making money."

                    I believe we must learn to differentiate between authentic, pure spirituality and pseudo-spiritual self-help techniques. In addition, I think we need to realize that this New Age eclecticism and superficial intermingling of spiritual traditions is for show and constitutes nothing but ego-trips.

                    I'll let you all know how it goes tomorrow at the James Ray event.

                    Blessings to all!


                  Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.
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                  Offline DannyB II

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                  Re: Comments for "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns..."
                  « Reply #72 on: July 05, 2010, 10:46:15 PM »
                  Quote from: "Ursus"
                  This set of comments includes not only a reference to the aforementioned mysterious suicide of Colleen Conaway (whilst attending one of James Ray's seminars), but also former James Ray followers who want their money back!

                  Jeesh now we have a mysterious suicide attached to this, wow I wonder what next Tuesday episode will bring.    :suicide:  :suicide:  :suicide: I see it is the 10 year reunion for Elian Rodriquiz, maybe Don Knotts will come back from the dead, Dick Chaney will become a Democrat, maybe Ron Paul became president after all.


                  -------------- • -------------- • --------------

                  Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; Crimesider):


                  • by RenHombre October 12, 2009 1:41 PM EDT
                    It was just a matter of time before a disaster of this magnitude occurred. There are too many "white men playing Indians" today, and putting lots of unassuming people at risk.

                    Having been in sweat lodges run by QUALIFIED Native American elders, I know it is outright dangerous to put 60 people in a dark sweat lodge because there's no way to keep track of everyone, nor regulate the steam in a safe way (even if they had the right lodge coverings, which they clearly didn't).

                    It's no surprise the investigation is now on James Arthur Ray...negligence seems so apparent, and meanwhile, his ego and aggressive self marketing tactics are out there on the Web for everyone to see.

                    I would be fine if this guy would simply stay on a hotel stage like the rest of the self-help gurus, and take the easy money that comes their way from the new-age 'searchers.'

                    However, it's appalling to me that a guy like Ray can hijack once-sacred rituals of Native Americans and charge $10,000 for a retreat that is based on them.
                    • by meroe_9 October 12, 2009 10:48 PM EDT
                      Sweat Lodge is a sacred tradition of many indigenous cultures (including Eastern European). It is not exclusive to Native Americans. I am of Native American descent and I accept the coming together of all of my brothers and sisters no matter what race they are incarnated into.

                      I do feel a great loss because of this tragedy. This was a poorly thought out and executed event that lead to devastating consequences.
                    • by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:41 AM EDT
                      I believe we all have essential and meaningful, and unique gifts to give and share with others in this life - gifts that are authentically ours - gifts we are born with, gifts we are given. I feel it is our responsibility to use these gifts for the increase of love, of awareness, of healing, and of connection.

                      This is a story of someone allowing their innate gifts to be guided by their lower nature and this always causes harm.

                      My heart goes out to all the loving, wonderful, open-hearted people who were impacted by this event - especially the attendees and their families, and those left behind the people who left their bodies.

                      They have provided such an important gift for all of us in the ending of their lives...Be fearless and follow the Knowingness of your OWN Heart, be guided by that which expands love and healing. Take your power back from those who seek to exploit you in the name of spiritual evolution or financial freedom, or whatever the buzzword of the day is!

                      It is so very revealing to see how people respond to tragic events we are responsible for creating...

                      how we respond essentially reveals our level of consciousness and our ability to live our Love, our Connection.

                      If I were pretending to be a GURU and "my followers" were willing to trust me to guide them into their transformation - I would stand by their side, regardless of the circumstances I created that actually led to people dying. I cannot believe that James would text such awful, disconnected, harmful responses to the tragedy that he caused -

                      Did you see the tweets that James left the night that his followers died?

                      These were posted on James Arthur Ray?s Twitter account during the Spiritual Warrior Event WHICH HE TRIED TO DELETE! Yet, these tweets can still be found on searching twitter!

                      "JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

                      THIS WAS HIS TWEET THE NIGHT THAT HIS EVENT KILLED TWO PEOPLE! AND INJURED NEARLY 1/3 OF HIS "FOLLOWERS." Sounds like he was sitting comfortably in his hotel room while he left more than 60 of his followers traumatized, several- 29 or so injured and in the hospital, and two dead. He went to the comfort of his hotel, and his dis-connected mind to spout "spiritual" things - in complete denial of the damage he created!

                      " JamesARay: Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next."

                      " JamesARay: SPW day 4. Your actions often speak louder than your words. A life of honor is living you values above and beyond your moods."

                      IF JAMES HAD ANY CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE WITHIN HIM HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW HIS FEAR AND REPTILIAN BRAIN INSTINCTS TO FLEE THE SCENE, ABANDON HIS FOLLOWERS AND TO GO INTO SPOUTING SPIRITUAL MUMBO-JUMBO AS YOU CAN SEE AND FEEL FROM HIS TWEETS THE NIGHT OF HIS SO-CALLED "SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" TRAINING.

                      IT IS SO EASY TO SAY "that was their destiny, they created their reality."

                      Yet, also just as true is the REALITY CHECK lesson that a charasmatic con-man who manipulates people into following him...his "wisdom"...his teaching...his program- promising innocent, vulnerable, good-hearted people that they will receive an end to their pain, a solution to their problems, a transformed life with higher brainwave frequencies, and "financial freedom!" all in the name of feeding his already ridiculous sense of masculine "power" or rather - force equating to dominance, control and the illusion of power.

                      listen to your own heart...dear Ones reading this!

                      follow the Knowingness within.

                      allow your self to be your own savior - as in the end it is only you who can save you and all the "leaders" will abandon you - just when you need them most! They are not here to protect you, save you, help you - they are here to get energy from you to fuel their ego dominant intentions - masked as "spiritual wisdom"

                      All is revealed through consciousness...and is palpably evident in response to the events they set in motion.
                    [/list]
                    • by jntlw October 12, 2009 1:46 PM EDT
                      Any guru or preacher who professes to teach you the "how to get wealthy' is a crock. If you are a Chrisitan, money is not your goal and should never be first and foremost. These people were paying to get rich through some bogus guru offering bogus theories and methods and they end up dead. Stop looking to get rich and just be happy in life and work and produce at that which pleases you most and helps society - that is true riches.
                      • by Cheryl_Laures October 13, 2009 7:39 PM EDT
                        So very true... someone teaching "Spiritual Precepts" is not all about "show me the money." However, Mr. Ray certainly thought his "brain-child-teachings" were worth 10K... probably because HE is so focused on the money. hummmm... makes you wonder just how altruistic and pure are his intentions.

                        His intentions seem rather ego-based to me. I've watched him from the sidelines and the "halo-effect" of media attention he received after The Secret was released. And I have only one comment about that, "Pride doth go before a fall."

                        As for the safety of his 10K program... As an RN I must say that the RN he hired definitely missed the mark on the schedule of events in the first place. You just DON'T have people fast for 36 hours, give them a buffet breakfast and expect the body to normalize itself after 36 hours of deprivation. Let alone... subject the body to profusely sweating in extreme heat, which pushes the body even further out of balance.

                        Sweat lodges or steam saunas are best tolerated when someone is well nourished and more than sufficiently hydrated... in order to tolerate the profound loss of fluids.

                        I would guess these folks got in a situation of electrolyte compromise along with their core temperature rising too high for way too long. TWO HOURS?... good grief!

                        And as a Spirit centered person, I think my biggest grief is that Mr. Ray hasn't even said he's sorry, or asked for forgiveness of the public on his Twitter posts. No.. instead he's still being the "guru" suggesting everyone join him in meditation. I guess asking for forgiveness would indicate blame and he doesn't want to incriminate himself.

                        It's a shame that he's so very willing to fleece people of 10K yet not take responsibility for his actions.

                        An author of a book, or cast member in a movie does NOT a Spiritual Adept make. Buyer beware, for there are many like this prowling the market, on the internet and elsewhere.
                      • by hogi2 October 20, 2009 11:58 PM EDT
                        Being a Christian has nothing to do with this.
                      [/list]
                      • by all_father October 12, 2009 2:34 PM EDT
                        The numbers here are shocking. 60 people in a sweat room with less volume than a small living room! Someone needs to go to jail for this catastrophe. And Ray is first, followed by the Hamiltons. Sad, too, that the participants didn't think about their risk... proof positive that trusting any "guru" can be deadly.
                      • by Awakened1 October 12, 2009 2:53 PM EDT
                        That's really sad. I knew that guy had bad karma written all over him. Just goes to show you that the "powers that be" don't like it when someone uses their spiritual awareness and rapport w/ people to take advantage of what's supposed to be the most sacred side of people. I hope James Ray has gotten his "message" through meditation he was seeking. Maybe if he stepped outside of himself or his ego for a moment, he would see it plain as day. Come on....9 to 10 GRAND for a spiritual weekend retreat??? 65 people = $650,000! I have also learned that NO ONE should conduct a "sweat" unless they are Native American or have a tribe's blessing to do so and are being assisted. Some Native American's don't do it until they are "called" to. I do have to say, he had it coming to him...James Ray that is. Those people gave their lives, I hope he learns the lesson that they sacrificed themselves for him to learn.
                        • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:50 PM EDT
                          With that kind of money, one would think these people could have bought some blankets to cover the lodge and maybe a few cases of WATER.
                        [/list]
                        • by momofthreebo October 12, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
                          Self help guro, my butt...He is nothing but a money hungry idiot trying to make a pofit off sacred native traditions. My heart goes out to all the families involved.
                        • by TwistedFeather12 October 12, 2009 3:37 PM EDT
                          Writer has been working with sweats for over 20 years and have not seen a death. With saying this writer has worked with Elders and people have to know there is a protocol to follow with sweats. Many people use native spirituality as a quick fix to make money.The regultions of having a sweat are earned and having a great abundence of people in the lodge is unnatural. It is with great sadness to the families who have lost their loved ones for a quick fix society for false healing. Please leave the native culture to the First Nations Elders and to the right people who earn the sweat rights. If needing to have a sweat for health please go to a reservation and give tabacco and monetary gift to an Elder for help. Thank you
                          • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 10:45 PM EDT
                            Well Said.
                          [/list]
                          • by Thousandoaks October 12, 2009 7:22 PM EDT
                            This is a heartbreaking tragedy and all affected deserve our sympathy. And, yes it should be investigated to learn what went wrong. But accusing or imprisoning someone will not make it better. We aren't 'at risk' because someone hasn't been jailed in this event. Put your focus where it deserves to be; sympathy and support for those affected. Not on a lynching quest to find someone to sacrifice.
                            It is so easy to trivialize the leader of this event, and to jealously demonize his success. I'd suggest you first consult those who he has helped through all of his teaching. This event is tragic but it is not James Ray's teaching that caused the deaths.
                            There may have been negligence but it is doubtful that it was criminal or with malicious intent. And certainly it was not that way with James Ray or his team. These are good people who have been leading other people to lead more meaningful lives for years now. Stop the bloodlust and just help the healing begin. Now is not the time for hatred.
                            • by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 8:02 PM EDT
                              He was selling sacred traditions! If his arrest and conviction would put more of these cultural thieves out of business...good!
                              Hasn't "American culture" taken away enough from the Indigenous people of this continent???
                              They used to jail NDN's for practicing their religion and put their children in boarding schools (that still exist in some areas) to "americanize" them, now these New Agers want to steal the very things the people were crucified for!!
                              Enough is enough!
                            • by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:28 PM EDT
                              I think you are forgetting that he lead the ceremony. Which means he was the LEADER!! which means he was negligent!! Which means, in the world today, that he will have to be accountable for his actions!!

                              And to add Rocks every 15 mins. This was no real sweat. Which means he made it up! Which means it was his IDEA, Which means he is responsible for not clearly thinking this through or getting proper advice for this event.

                              And to convince people into believing that they have to get through the heat of the sweat!! Something that never, ever would have been done with those who are trained in the REAL Ceremony, which has been done for Thousands of Years!! Means HE IS RESPONSIBLE.

                              IF the man is ignoring REALITY, he and his team Are Super Negligent, and it doesn't matter if it was there conscious intentions or NOT. Negligence is Negligence if you are working at it or not!

                              We can have all the compassion in the world for him. But he still has to be responsible for his actions, words and where he is taking people who are paying him in TRUST!!
                            [/list]
                            • by clhs2007 October 12, 2009 7:24 PM EDT
                              55-65 people? WOW; Paying for a sweat? Wow, I'm at a loss of words. One of the dumbest things thats ever happened!
                            • by Ahaseheset October 12, 2009 7:55 PM EDT
                              It was with great sadness that I read about the people who died in AZ in a sweat lodge run by an individual who was charging a fair amount of money to his victims.
                              No charges have been filed against this person.

                              Not that he intended for this to happen. Not at all. His intent was to help these people in spiritual health and his own capital gain.

                              The trouble is he was using HIS vision of what is a sacred Native American ceremony. Now people have suffered for his lack of respect of Native traditions.
                              He was selling those traditions as if they were some sort of of commodity. I wonder if he also offered Holy Communion and Confession complete with Rosary and the prescribed numbers of Hail Marys?? For these traditions and ceremonies must also be for sale, in his eyes.

                              About five years ago, Arvol Looking Horse, a bundle keeper for the Lakota people and several other medicine people, elders and bundle keepers for many nations decreed that Native American ceremony is for NATIVE AMERICANS.
                              You may be invited to attend, but the ceremony is to be conducted by NATIVE AMERICANS who are trained. They came to this conclusion after a similar tragedy happened in Redding, CA.

                              I absolutely agree with this decree by the Plains Nations elders.

                              STOP STEALING TRADITIONS! STOP SELLING TRADITIONS!!
                              • by apachepat07 October 14, 2009 1:45 PM EDT
                                you cant stop it. know matter what they say. White men will run all kinds of ceremonies. some for money some not. I agree but the question is how do we deal with the problem because like the life it will go on. Believe me I've seen it all living on the west coast. Just pray.
                              [/list]
                              • by parkrapidsmn October 12, 2009 8:39 PM EDT
                                This is not the first time someone has died at a James Arthur Ray seminar.

                                On July 26 of this year Colleen died during a James Arthur Ray Creating Absolute Wealth Seminar in San Diego. She had been emotionally broken down, starved and kept awake ungodly amounts of time. During a group "field trip" to Horton Plaza Mall she plunged to the floor from a third level railing.

                                Colleen was a happy and succcessful woman. Prior to her death she had absolutely never given any of her friends and co-workers any signs of suicidal thoughts/intentions. She was making future plans...had a positive outlook on life...and was completely healthy.

                                Colleen was brainwashed. She fell victim to Large Group Awareness Training. I believe James Arthur Ray and his company completely covered up their involvement in her death.

                                There must be others who have been injured ect. by James Arthur Ray either physically, financially or mentally...please, please, please contact officials and tell your story. This must be stopped before more people are hurt!
                              •  by JaclyneW October 12, 2009 10:34 PM EDT
                                I also feel that the Retreat Center should be held accountable for allowing a sweat of that large to be RENTED out to participants of, obviously anyone, who want to rent their Center!!!

                                They obviously built the structure, and rented it to Mr. Ray. So in all actuality, they all should be accountable.
                              • by ChristopherBlackwell October 12, 2009 10:38 PM EDT
                                Another greedy spiritual con man who making money was more important than reasonable safety of his followers. Anyone with sense would never keep anyone in a sweat lodge for so long. Fools running sweat lodges can kill people and con men are always fools when chasing enrichment.

                              • by willwalden October 12, 2009 11:09 PM EDT
                                Like others here in Sedona I live here and was saddened and angered by this tragedy which could have been avoided. I spoke to some local nurses about this tragedy and they told me there is some sort of loophole in the law that requires only "minimal" medical coverage for an event of this type. Apparently all that is required is to have one nurse on call, and not even necessarily on site, and the organizers are covered according to the insurance companies that deal with this sort of event. $600,000 plus revenue went to the guy and ONE NURSE was paid to be available. No equipment, no ambulance, nothing - just one poor nurse left to deal with whatever happens. This also needs to be looked at and fixed before another one of these guys shows up here.
                              • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:21 PM EDT
                                I have been working with sweat lodges for more than two decades. I have never seen a death. My Uncle told of this twenty years ago when people begin to sell sage. There was a time my Brothers would have visited this place and asked them to stop...or....?
                                Someone running a business like this one in Arizona, offered me thousands of dollars to work for them. This was not the only "warrior camp" to try to solicit this writer. They are dangerous. As for the plastic covering, I would not stick my head into a trash bag and expect to breathe, not for any amount of money...these people did just that. Air, like Traditions should not be sold. Ten Grand is NOT going to manifest air in a trash bag. Obviously, this guy thought he could sell it, and sadly there were people that believed it could be purchased.
                                • by SotaMabaTanke October 14, 2009 5:08 PM EDT
                                  AHO MITAKUYE OYASIN,Pilamia
                                  Thank you couldnt have said it better(plastic???come on folks,this is pure neglegents
                                [/list]
                                • by kwhitecloud October 12, 2009 11:36 PM EDT
                                  STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS STOP SELLING TRADITIONS...that was four times. DOOR !
                                • by DeleneSC October 13, 2009 12:31 AM EDT
                                  My husband and I took a $750. weekend course from James Ray (not this particular 5 day retreat) and it was wonderful. We were shocked and saddened as everyone here is. James has been doing these retreats (of which the sweat is just one part) since 2003. I think there was carelessness and mistakes were made (too many people and session was too long), leading to tragic results. It is very unfortunate for everyone involved and my heart goes out to the families of the 2 people who died.

                                  However, James is not a greedy "bad" person. He truly wants to help people achieve their dreams, but humans DO make mistakes. Tragic of course, but don't assume he is necessarily a bad person who just things of money. I think people here are making assumptions without knowing of his otherwise incredible integrity and knowledge about many different traditions, not just Native American. I also feel for him too because I see how he has improved so many people's lives.

                                  Our hearts go out to ALL those affected by those terrible mistakes~yes, even James Ray.
                                  • by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:44 AM EDT
                                    Well said DeleneSC!!
                                  • by NikEst October 16, 2009 12:21 PM EDT
                                    If what James Ray preached actually worked, there would be more people talking about it. Instead, we hear "I spent thousands and now I'm just thousands poorer". Please do not say something like "You have to work at it!" because while true, the work you work on should show a glimmer of success early or what you're doing is probably a waste of time.

                                    Also, James Ray isn't rich by his preached scheme. His rich because he preaches the scheme. Funny, he doesn't preach that get rich quick idea. He may not be a "bad" person, but he is greedy. Charging thousands per person just so they can hear you talk is greedy. Imagine if teachers could do that, they'd finally be paid something resembling the impact they have on the world.
                                  [/list]
                                  • by jewelz33 October 13, 2009 12:42 AM EDT
                                    I send out my prayers and sympathies to all affected by this horrible situation, especially to the families of those who died.

                                    I have to say it really amazes me that people use their time and energy to write things like so many of the above posts - no one even has all of the facts...we hear and see what the news reports and it may or may not be accurate and we don't even know 100% what caused this tragedy yet other than what appears to be the case. America is about innocent until proven guilty and you all are not the people to decide guilt, that is what the police and law were created to do - so I say leave your condemnation to the proper authorities and use your energy for something POSITIVE and helpful! How about putting energy into something like saying prayers or meditating for all involved or investigating how to send sympathies or something to soothe the families affected or maybe see if there is anything else you can do or say to help this situation versus spewing out negative words and judgments...this world is full of people who focus on retribution or anger about things and that doesn't help any situation...what helps is people taking action to help others rather than using their anger and words for negative purposes!! We're all allowed an opinion but use your minds and opinions wisely based on concrete facts and for the best possible use of the mind we've all been given. Don't get me wrong, I say let justice be served accordingly but by the people who understand & have all of the facts and were hired to do so!
                                  • by sshakeri02 October 13, 2009 4:06 AM EDT
                                    Thank you everyone for your posts. My prayers go out to the victims and their loved ones. I am one of the naive ones who has paid tens of 1000s of $$$ to attend many seminars of James Ray. I now realize what a big mistake I made. I must say that he is very charismatic and the energy really sucks a person in, especially during one of his high energy, high entertainment value seminars. Tomorrow (Tuesday) I am going to one of his free events to ask for my money back for the seminars since I no longer feel the seminars are in the best interest of my wife or myself. I am one of the few in the James Ray follower camp who actually has an authentic spiritual teacher. I was warned by my spiritual teacher about people like James Ray, but I did not listen... at least until now. My wife and I were oh so very close to attending the "Spiritual Warrior" event. That is the only event we did not purchase. We almost did. I am going to ask for my money back for the seminars in lieu of the recent tragedy. I will be interested to see how he or his office treats my request. Yes, they have waivers that say you are not entitled to a refund after purchasing the seminars, but I will be interested to see whether they honor my request with all the media attention and how everyone is watching his every move now.

                                    As my spiritual teacher said when I told him about the $1000s I spent on James Ray's seminars which utilizes techniques drawing on the inner world such as visualizations to achieve worldly success, "...using visualizations and other inner techniques to get money is like raping the inner world. The inner world is for connecting with the sacred and not for making money."

                                    I believe we must learn to differentiate between authentic, pure spirituality and pseudo-spiritual self-help techniques. In addition, I think we need to realize that this New Age eclecticism and superficial intermingling of spiritual traditions is for show and constitutes nothing but ego-trips.

                                    I'll let you all know how it goes tomorrow at the James Ray event.

                                    Blessings to all!


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                                  Comments for "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation...," #s 31-60
                                  « Reply #73 on: July 30, 2010, 10:44:34 AM »
                                  Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 31-60:


                                    • by bj1285 October 13, 2009 12:29 PM EDT
                                      Hi sshakeri02, I will be very interested if you get any money back! I have written a large comment myself and want my money back as well. I await your next comment about the refund!
                                      If not maybe we start a class action lawsuit with all people who feel like us!
                                    [/list]
                                    • by COURAGEOUSGURL October 13, 2009 4:22 AM EDT
                                      Being of Native American decent myself I appreciate the customs and traditions of the culture. I know many people who do. But I do not know where to go to experience things like a sweat lodge. This weeklong event included this ceremony and knowing myself I would be compelled to want to experience that. Even if I had to pay money. It is not the ceremony itself that creates the experience but the gathering of like minded individuals and what they each bring to it. It is so beautiful the comments made about the individuals who tragically died in what was meant to be a spiritual cleansing, healing. How they are described is as caring, giving, loving, joyous, and successful people. This is why they were there... to continue their spiritual journey. It is very unfortunate that this tragedy happened. The investigations are ongoing and there are so many questions and accusations being made. Patience is needed to get all the answers and people are still healing from injuries and families still grieving. I'm sure what ever caused this tragedy was an accident and nothing malicious was intended. Keep in my The leader of the event and his staff was in the sweat lodge right along with everyone else. I know if I had been a witness to this tragedy I would feel... such a sense of loss, grief and would be raking my brain if I could have done something to prevent it. If I could have seen a sign, acted more swiftly, etc. I am sure all the people involved are feeling this and much more. Battling their own inner demons. Really who is harder on us, than ourselves? Would this keep me from participating in a sweat lodge? Nope, but I will listen to my own intuition as to what is best for my body as well as be sure to be well hydrated and take breaks when needed. Maybe if native americans put up spiritual retreats like they do casinos I could experience something more beneficial for my money than just a gamble. Really why not, I think that could be amazing.
                                    • by mastereric1 October 13, 2009 8:12 AM EDT
                                      The wave became the particle.
                                    • by photolex October 13, 2009 10:34 AM EDT
                                      Could James Ray be a bigger coward? Instead of cooperating with the investigation, he refuses to talk to the authorities and flees out of state. He wasn't even considerate enough to stay around to monitor the condition of those who were hospitalized.
                                    • by bj1285 October 13, 2009 12:25 PM EDT
                                      I am someone who has also spent $1,000's to attend James Ray events myself. I was at the one in San Diego. I was shocked and horrified to read about the death at the one I attended and no one I know knew about that! Shocked as well that 2 died and 19 injured at the sweat lodge. I was emotional damaged myself at the event in San Diego. It took me a couple of months just to gather myself together again to be able to function. I sent a letter to him and ask for my money back and for a refund for the upcoming seminar that I am suppose to attend in Las Vegas. As of yet, I have not heard anything at all back from them.
                                      I have to say that I don't believe that he knows what he is doing and has no business taking people out on these "outings". It was the 2 "outtings" that threw me for a loop. We were dropped off in a city and told to "act" homeless. It was traumatic for me and then we were dropped off at one of the richest neighborhood in the US for a scavenger hunt. It was during these 2 events that I had emotional trauma. There was also an incident where the police were called. The reason I participated in these "outtings" was because I trusted him to do no harm to us. I was way wrong! I would love to be part of a class action suit against him, if not more anything else but to at least get my $6,000 back. I have felt like a complete idiot that I trusted someone this much and that he does not live up to this word!
                                      I sure to do hope that he is going to be held accountable for these deaths! I doubt that he will refund my any money even though he talks about how his seminars are satisfaction guaranteed! I have thought it was just a matter of time before something more tragic happened to someone else. I never thought that that would be death!
                                      Please anyone thinking about attending of these events, please think very seriously about it, wish I had. I'm now going to lose $1,000's because I will not attend the seminar coming up in Las Vegas.
                                      I hope the families of these people will have a very public law suit and not kick this under the table. Others need to be warmed!
                                      My condolences go out to the families of the death of 3 partipants.
                                      • by rsnchk October 13, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
                                        Wow! How easy it is to act like a victim...I participated in one of James events. It was Harmonic Wealth a few years ago. He is a very charismatic person & truly pushes your boundaries...
                                        Emotional trauma? and you continued signing up for the events? Nobody forced you to do that. You signed the papers & gave your credit card...Were you doing it unconsciously time after time...? Sounds like someone does not want to take any personal responsibility.
                                        I personally felt that James was very entertaining & mind provoking lecturer...I found his staff to be very unfriendly when I tried to get a discount for the next event. So I decided not to pursue this venue any further. I made a conscious decision that it was not for me...
                                        I think it is extremely sad that two lives were lost. It is sad that the lesson in humility comes at such a high price...
                                        I can not even hear about some kind of emotional trauma. That is absolutely ridiculous! Stop crying like a baby. Learn your lessons & cut your losses.
                                        No one will ever take responsibility for one's life & one's choices. We are talking about two people dead here...and you are venting about 6 grand, that you were so eager to pay...There were actually 2 people who died not 3.
                                      • by parkrapidsmn October 14, 2009 3:05 PM EDT
                                        I am shocked to hear that you did not know of Colleen's death! I wonder how on earth they could have possibly covered something like that up to the other participants.
                                        You mentioned that there was even one event where the police were called. Was that the "outting" to Horton Plaza where she died maybe? If you don't mind me asking- what events did lead up to the Horton Plaza outting...and what was suppose to be it's purpose?
                                        I hope you don't mind me asking these questions but, since her death I, along with many others have so many unanswered questions.
                                        Thank You.
                                      [/list]
                                      • by Susinn October 13, 2009 1:04 PM EDT
                                        The Native american Peoples are grieving and upset by this tragedy. The sweat lodge ceremony is for healing and cleansing, not a place of suffering. This is why the ceremony is led by the qualified medicine people with years of training.

                                        Anyone can pour water on stones, but to work with energy and know the spiritual, physical and emotional condition of all people in a ceremony, with usually no more 15 people, it takes a very experienced person. Almost every tribe that uses a sweatlodge has such a person.

                                        There are a lot of different aspects to Native American cultures, one of which is the cardinal directions and keepers of the rites to those directions.

                                        The Chumash Indians are the keepers of the western gate for what is known by most as Turtle Island. One of their traditional practioners, Mahiwo, is now in the Sedona area to help with the transition of souls and heal the hearts and emotions in this great atrosophy and for the participants of catastrophy.

                                        Many of the people in the incident have now returned home.

                                        You can contact us at [email protected] and ww will pass a message onto Mahiwo.
                                      • by fastrunningdog October 13, 2009 5:44 PM EDT
                                        I really am saddened by the deaths of these two people whose lives were missing something that required them to give $10,000 to this FRAUD. I've taken spiritual retreats and have been in sweatlodges and have found them to be moving and powerful experiences.

                                        One of my retreats was at Angel Valley (not run by Ray and no sweatlodge). It was a dump. It was miles outside of beautiful Sedona and down a winding dirt road. When I arrived there I felt like I was in some kind of cult camp . . Trailors, shacks, tents. I wouldn't go back there if someone paid me. I hope the owners of that place are held as responsible for this tragedy as Ray should be.
                                      • by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
                                        It is so very revealing to see how people respond to tragic events we are responsible for creating...

                                        how we respond essentially reveals our level of consciousness and our ability to live our Love, our Connection.

                                        If I were pretending to be a GURU and "my followers" were willing to trust me to guide them into their transformation - I would stand by their side, regardless of the circumstances I created that actually led to people dying. I cannot believe that James would text such awful, disconnected, harmful responses to the tragedy that he caused -

                                        Did you see the tweets that James left the night that his followers died?

                                        These were posted on James Arthur Ray?s Twitter account during the Spiritual Warrior Event WHICH HE TRIED TO DELETE! Yet, these tweets can still be found on searching twitter!

                                        "JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"

                                        THIS WAS HIS TWEET THE NIGHT THAT HIS EVENT KILLED TWO PEOPLE! AND INJURED NEARLY 1/3 OF HIS "FOLLOWERS." Sounds like he was sitting comfortably in his hotel room while he left more than 60 of his followers traumatized, several- 29 or so injured and in the hospital, and two dead. He went to the comfort of his hotel, and his dis-connected mind to spout "spiritual" things - in complete denial of the damage he created!

                                        " JamesARay: Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next."

                                        " JamesARay: SPW day 4. Your actions often speak louder than your words. A life of honor is living you values above and beyond your moods."

                                        IF JAMES HAD ANY CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE WITHIN HIM HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW HIS FEAR AND REPTILIAN BRAIN INSTINCTS TO FLEE THE SCENE, ABANDON HIS FOLLOWERS AND TO GO INTO SPOUTING SPIRITUAL MUMBO-JUMBO AS YOU CAN SEE AND FEEL FROM HIS TWEETS THE NIGHT OF HIS SO-CALLED "SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" TRAINING.

                                        IT IS SO EASY TO SAY "that was their destiny, they created their reality."

                                        Yet, also just as true is the REALITY CHECK lesson that a charasmatic con-man who manipulates people into following him...his "wisdom"...his teaching...his program- promising innocent, vulnerable, good-hearted people that they will receive an end to their pain, a solution to their problems, a transformed life with higher brainwave frequencies, and "financial freedom!" all in the name of feeding his already ridiculous sense of masculine "power" or rather - force equating to dominance, control and the illusion of power.

                                        listen to your own heart...dear Ones reading this!

                                        follow the Knowingness within.

                                        allow your self to be your own savior - as in the end it is only you who can save you and all the "leaders" will abandon you - just when you need them most! They are not here to protect you, save you, help you - they are here to get energy from you to fuel their ego dominant intentions - masked as "spiritual wisdom"

                                        All is revealed through consciousness...and is palpably evident in response to the events they set in motion.
                                      • by januaryguy October 14, 2009 12:39 PM EDT
                                        I have known James for nine years, and NONE of the negative and intentionally cruel comments left by others are true. James is a genuinely nice guy who made a success of himself the old fashioned way: long hours of hard work over many years. James has conducted similar retreats over seven years without incident. His clients/customers have served as his strongest advocates. James is truly saddened by what has occurred and is determined to find out the exactly what happened. The rest of you need to stop speculating and wait for the facts, unless, of course, you happen to have detailed inside information has to precisely what went wrong (which you do not possess.)

                                        I stand in support of James Arthur Ray and know that whatever happened he was doing his gut level best to be of service to others.

                                        Jeff Davidson
                                        Raleigh NC
                                        • by rahan77 October 17, 2009 12:46 AM EDT
                                          Well nice guy or not, two people are dead. Some poeple are responsible for what happened and as the leader James Arthur Ray is the most responsible. Being sorry is not enought. When you make a mistake that cause death, well being saddened doesn't excuse you. This is not speculation, this is right in front of your eyes. 2 people died. James Ray is responsible for the death of those people. I'm sure some other people have also to blame, but Jams Ray is the first person to blame. He had the final word, he took all final decisions. He was supposed to know what he was doing and yet it seems he didn't have the necessery permit, the sweat lodge was covered with plastic, with material that does not breathe. 64 people packet in this inferno for 2 hours... For this kind of mistake you can't say "He's a nice guy". It could have been easily avoided. It would be fair enought for him to do some time in jail.
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                                        • by Thousandoaks October 14, 2009 1:12 PM EDT
                                          I too have known James Arthur Ray for many years and I agree with Jeff Davidson. James' professionalism and dedication to serving his clients is impressive. He is a friend and a leader whom I trust.
                                          Jim Cathcart
                                        • by AConscience October 14, 2009 1:13 PM EDT
                                          Jeff, James Ray did not know what he was doing and was irresponsible, to say the least, in pushing these people into this sweat lodge experience while pushing them to go beyond their limits. He was playing around with people's lives so he could make over $500K off them.

                                          He fled the scene and refused to talk to authorities. What a nice guy. What integrity. What a spiritual warrior.

                                          His philosophy is exceptionally materialistic and he is WAY overcharging people for simple ideas that he ripped off from other people.

                                          If James was so saddened, then why didn't he stick around to be a spiritual warrior and support the people who died. Not even a trip to the hospital where more than a dozen people who trusted him ended up?

                                          His long hours of hard work are a joke. Working long and hard at selling a simple "change your life" philosophy that you ripped off from other people so that you can have lots of expensive toys is not an example of success. It's irresponsibility, childishness, and manipulation of others.

                                          He has attracted this unwanted attention with his enormous ego, his raging materialism, and his horrible hypocrisy. And now three people are dead. Two in Sedona, and one in San Diego from July according to a poster on page one.
                                          • by chiefmtn October 14, 2009 5:28 PM EDT
                                            The grandiosity of his Narcissism,His ignorance is exceeded only by his arrogance.
                                            We have been watching the new-agers attempt a transition to enlightenment via the lodge for years, myself for 34 years. And I am young but now I'm a grandparent 5x with anothe one coming. What will I tell my grandchildren about this James Arthur Ray that ran around stealing religion??
                                            Probably just that he was one of the lost children of the lost Pilgrims,still looking for Cortez's gold and he tried digging it out of the hearts of his brothers.
                                          [/list]
                                          • by apachepat07 October 14, 2009 1:56 PM EDT
                                            what a bummer. where do you start to comment? well, of course start w/ the family of those gone on to a better place. We have to believe they're in a better place. Now what. Do we blame the man in charge, the lack of oxygen due to plastic tarps, I'm sure we could find more but lets look at one fact. The sweat leader is responsible for all in the sweat. Being a sweat leader myself this is true. It is my responsibility to know how to recognize and feel a problem. then know how to deal w/ the problem like death. That being said should he be criminaly charged thats up to the law.
                                            Being a San Carlos Apache full blood its good to not charge for such things but i can't judge. Ive seen people have a hard time for doing such things and there families have a hard time in life. So I'm going by what i have observed. You don't want to make "the power that be" upset. You want the "power that be" to help you better yourself being careful how you word your prayers for those things. We can't question "the power that be". It all happened for a reason. We will all have to stay tuned to see what the outcome will be. All of his followers hang in there Im sure he's helped somehow to see smthing good for u all. Next time make sure the man running the sweat whether he is white,black or purple is qualified to do so. If u don't feel good about it don't go. If you have a choice go to one run by a native person first. then try othres if you choose. Always look for the positive
                                          • by SotaMabaTanke October 14, 2009 5:36 PM EDT
                                            I wish to honor the lives of((James& Kirby))and send heartfelt prayers to their families.I also will pray for the children left behind..
                                            I was in utter shock when i saw this pic of the lodge.I am Native American and have lived my whole life participating in sweat lodge ceremonies.I have NEVER seen one like this.I cannot believe the negligence of using Tarps(plastic)to cover.I have read all the comments here and would like to address some of the issues.
                                            One,yes everyone's responsible for self but its rather impossible to speak out to be let out of lodge if your unconscious.
                                            Secondly,He who was in charge of facilitating the lodge should be fully responsible for it.Like a vehicle so to speak with passengers.Therefore it was up to him to ask how everyone is doing and to make sure all are ok.
                                            I hope he is charged with negligence .Also,someone wrote there needs to be proof.Well I see plastic tarps right in the pictures,there's the proof.
                                          • by Mahtowa October 15, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
                                            It is sad that these 3 people have pass due to one mans greed. As kids learning the inipee ceremonies we were always told never play with or miss use the lodge. guess he didnt learn that or believe it. Now the creator has given another new-ager/neoshaman the message DONT MISS USE OUR SACRED TEACHINGS!!!! This is not the first time some one has died in a ceremony due to miss use. I pray for the families of those who have died. Susinn and Mahiwo ne'eshte 'my prayer are with you in the morning sky. aho
                                          •  by AniRoseWalker October 15, 2009 4:25 PM EDT
                                            Think about it, --Wealth is never "created," it is always a matter of having more than other people do... and therefore is always based on wishing others to be poor so that you, in contrast, can be wealthy. This is why I've always always thought that the "Secret" was materialistic trash, and I couldn't imagine how people could flock to fake masters who charge obscene amounts.

                                            On the other hand, transformation is real... spiritual existence is real... higher consciousness is real... all of these hopes and dreams are based on truth. Vision quests are real, and there are people who will assist you in undergoing a true quest. If you are humble enough and truthful enough, you will find a teacher.

                                            So sad. These were people in the prime of their lives. How could their common sense have so completely failed them? I can imagine how suffocating it was, and I feel along with them the sliding into unconsciousness and the nagging awareness that something is not right... I hope they come in dreams to help others.
                                            • by BenjaminRamsey October 15, 2009 10:13 PM EDT
                                              The situation with the deaths during the sweat ceremony in Arizona is certainly tragic, and I can't speak to the leader James Ray's personal integrity. But what's more tragic than the sad loss of those two people is the widespread belief that wealth is not created but only taken from others. It's called the "fixed size pie" belief, that there is only a fixed set of wealth in the world, one set "pie", and in order to have a large piece of the pie someone else has to have less. Nothing could be further from the truth!!! Almost ALL wealth is created! It's a natural offshoot of the miracle of exchange, both parties are better off (or the exchange wouldn't happen). The more business one perpetuates, the more economic growth occurs, and the better off EVERYONE is, including that person. If more people could understand how this works (and I admit it sometimes can be hard to see it), the world would be a much better place. It's part of why you never hear about anyone starving to death in America, the great wealth we've generated here, in the end, SAVES LIVES!!!

                                              As I work to create wealth for me and my family, I don't take it away from anyone. I must offer, or exchange, MORE value than I receive, plain and simple. In order to earn a million dollars, I have to put out MORE than a million dollars worth of value. Thus the overall economy is better off. You see?

                                              Here's a simple example: I want $1, so do some work by going into the forest and pick an apple and come back and sell it at the market for $1. Whoever buys that apple values it MORE than $1, which is why they decide it's better to give up the $1 and get the apple. Thus, in the economy, there is MORE value than there was before: the man has something worth MORE than a dollar, AND I have a dollar! If I want $100 I have to work to produce something worth MORE than $100 so that the market will gladly pay me $100 for that something. If I want $10,000 it might be hard to pick 10,000 apples, so maybe I'll come up with a plan to magnify my efforts. I could plant 100 apple trees, invent a new kind of apple picker tool, and hire 10 people to pick all the apples in a fraction of the time. They would all receive fair worker's wages they agree to, and I would get the benefit of having CREATED all the new value of all those apples to trade in the market.

                                              The whole entire economy works like this, wealth is CREATED one dollar's worth at a time. The only time it doesn't work like this is when people TAKE, such as when they steal, or when they receive welfare checks, or when they use up community pot resources without paying for them, etc. Takers expect the government or the community to provide benefits for them, they complain a lot, and they come up with false ideas about how the rich are somehow causing them to be poor. BALONEY! The poor should THANK the rich, because without them they would be POORER than they already are! It's thanks to the richest men in history, men who CREATED LOTS OF WEALTH, that the whole economy is as good as it is. We aren't starving. We aren't dying of malaria by the thousands like in Africa. We aren't literally freezing to death or being killed off by mudslides and tsunamis like they are in the poor nations of the earth. Hurricane in Florida? We EVACUATE! We have cars! We don't stay in little mud huts to die. It's mostly thanks to all the wealth which has been CREATED over the decades and centuries by entrepreneurs and businessmen. They are our greatest saving angels.

                                              Almost all wealth is created. We should strive to create as much as we can, for ourselves and our families, and at the same time for the overall economies of the world, which helps everyone live longer happier lives.
                                            • by NikEst October 16, 2009 12:14 PM EDT
                                              I believe that BenjaminRamsey may be a cover for James Ray. Sure, wealth might be created every now and then, but most is exchanged. For example, I pay McDonalds $6 of my money for food that costs them only $5 to make, prepare, and sell. McDonalds didn't create the extra $1, they took that dollar from me. I agreed to it, so it's not stealing, but nothing was created there. To get my money, I made an agreement with a company that they will pay me a certain amount for my work. The money I get is their money. Eventually we get to the point where the government printed the money and we find out where wealth is created.

                                              I can't quite understand how you equate welfare checks to stealing. We are helping those who need some extra money because everything around them is so greedy the put taking a profit over the well being of people. As it turns out, I have $28 to last me and my fiance two weeks and about four days worth of food in the pantry. Can you help me figure out how to make that last 10 days? See, I'm having trouble with the math because it looks like I can spend $2.80 a day, but that means I have to eat homemade muffins and two cans of spagettios a day. Muffins take milk though, so I guess I can't afford those, it'll have to be toast, assuming bread stays cheap. See, if the town I have to live in didn't rip everybody off in rent costs, this wouldn't have happened. Obviously we are better off than those in 3rd world countries, but to say the poor should thank the rich for setting prices out of reach, for keeping wages down to a point where they are below the poverty line, and for putting in place rental policies that make it impossible to have enough money to move is itself baloney, and lots of it. Apparently, you are well off. I can tell you as someone who is not, the rich are much to blame. Rich people run the banks that tried to make money off poor people. This caused the stock market (also run by rich people) to crash, which caused all of the companies that have a goal of making money to shed jobs. Do we know what jobs were shed? Most of those jobs were low income jobs, people that couldn't get by with a job, let alone without. You really need to take a second and think about what you are talking about before you talk about it.

                                              Also, money does not outdo the loss of life, especially if that loss of life was caused by greed and ignorance. Pay me $10k so I can stick you in a hot tarp after not feeding you for 36 hours? That is greedy, pure and simple. I'd go so far as to say it's stealing.
                                            [/list]
                                            • by hogi2 October 15, 2009 8:30 PM EDT
                                              As children we are taught never to put our head in a plastic bag...Why would someone put that many people in a plastic bag? You can see by the picture that the lodge was covered in plastic. What elder told him to do that? If he did not go to an elder to learn about running a sweat then what the heck was he doing? I have read that James Ray was a good guy. Maybe so. I do not know him. He did however, do this and needs to step up to the plate and take responsibility for what he did.
                                              • by rahan77 October 16, 2009 8:58 PM EDT
                                                I couldn't agree more with you. If the leader of the event won't take responsability who will? Maybe some other people have to take some part of responsability but he's the one people trusted and blindly followed, he's the most responsible. That in my opinion is a second degree murder. I saw The Secret and can you imagine that for a few weeks i actualy believed it until i reslised it was total crap?! Ask, believe, receive, it's that simple. Well what about hard work and resiliance? I'ts not enought to ask, believe and magically receive. Somehow you control, you master the universe. "Your wish is my command" says the universe. Well I'm sorry but I doesn't work like that. Of course positive thoughts helps, but many times in life things will happen despite your positive thoughts. Now what actions are you going to take to face the situation? See what happened at the retreat. Did he asked that, believed it then it happened? No, I think he was just careless. His focus was more on the profit. Was he even there during the ceremony? I thin The secret did more harm to poeple then helped them. Some people suddenly believe that the universe is at their command and make bad decisions. They might lose a lot of money in bad business or worse. It's very sad what happened and I hope that James Arthur Ary will stand up and assume his responsability.
                                              [/list]
                                              • by dalai_bunny October 15, 2009 9:42 PM EDT
                                                This is from Ray's own Twitter post:

                                                Our evolution is founded on the NECESSITY that we accept complete responsibility for the consequences of our own actions
                                                5:16 PM Sep 27th from txt

                                                So how ''EVOLVED" is he? He is a JOKE.
                                                Another 'guru' whose cowardly hypocritical manifestation is fixated on the accumulation of wealth.
                                                I don't care what you believe, what tradition you follow, emotional well-being and power has NOTHING to do with money, exceot for changing hands in its pursuit. Watch out for your delusions.
                                              • by zintkala October 17, 2009 2:42 AM EDT
                                                James Arthur Ray has stolen one of the most sacred ceremony of the Lakota: inikagapi. He is a fraud and should be held accountable for the death of these two persons.

                                                I am surprised that nobody mentions the responsibility of Oprah Winfrey.
                                                She has given a voice to James Arthur Ray, and I do believe that she should be held accountable for the sweat lodge deaths in Sedona.

                                                Because of her, people have believed in this man who stole one of the most sacred ceremony of the Lakota.
                                                Because of her, people have been traumatized.
                                                Because of her, people died.

                                                I am really shocked that she acted without proper judgement when she let James Arthur Ray sell his ******** during her show. This is a shame!

                                                I do not understand that nobody intervenes in blogs and forums to tell people about her responsibility.

                                                Why? Because she is rich?
                                                • by fmason1 October 23, 2009 4:11 PM EDT
                                                  Oprah is just as guilty as she promotes stuff to get paid too. She tells everyone how to be thin when shes fat herself haha. She is popular as she exploits the weak minded people of the country into believing she is their "hope" and if they do what she says they will succeed. She is very good at hypnosis and is making our country dumb and stupid. We need principles back of truth and nonsense and manipulation like this WILL END that's what age of Aquarius is all about and predicted this. All these things like this will end. Oprah promoted this clown and got paid she should have to pay out of her billion to help these people. She got to shut down the street for her show when people are dying in Chicago and of course rest of the world with no food in the food banks. If she cares so much about doing good why doesn't she go feed the needy and "help" them LEARN a profession or skills. None of these people care they are all capitalistic people and I personally believe capitalism is good as it allows competition and more advancements and opportunities but this is the other side of the coin and must be kept in check by getting people like this and Oprah away from weak public who gets manipulated by them. I really truly feel sad for weak minded people and never post on websites nor use any networking sites but when I read this I had to really respond. Dr. Phil who tells you how to have good relationships was obviously not successful himself. All these people are manipulators that's it but they are not completely at fault its these weak gullible people who make people like Oprah and Dr. Phil become who they are. This is a very sad time for our country as far as knowledge and growth goes, this country was built upon Masonic principles of knowledge and wisdom and freedom but now its more like China with a different title. This is truly very very sad and the American Education system should be very proud of what they have done to our youth as as well as the older generation.
                                                [/list]
                                                • by AniRoseWalker October 17, 2009 3:28 PM EDT
                                                  "Benjamin Ramsey" may be pen name for James Arthur Ray... ha ha! I believe you may be right! That delusional rant about how the poor should "thank" the rich was really... rich. LMAO!!!
                                                • by AniRoseWalker October 17, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
                                                  Actually, another comment: Until the Earth herself and the atmosphere and the contributions of all tiny beings and unseen beings are added into the equation... we don't know the true cost of things, anything. A MacDonald's hamburger is falsely priced because it does not take into account the felling of a tree in a rain forest in order to raise a portion of a animal that fed on grasslands and gallons and gallons of water... and it doesn't take into account the unhappiness of a family when a sugar-crashing child (after eating that high-glucose bun) makes a trip miserable, or it doesn't account for the eventual cost of heart disease and diabetes and other illness partly caused by highly processed foods. That hamburger is a source of misery and disease, but it sure tastes good!

                                                  So, this may seem really off-track, but it's about the travesty of charging people for their own spiritual growth and transformation. AS IF IT WERE POSSIBLE...! And about claiming that "wealth is created" and that we should worship the rich who have made life so good for the poor.
                                                • by Crowman7 October 17, 2009 7:06 PM EDT
                                                  The Native peoples performed these ceremonies using certian guidelines, including the size of the lodge. After countless centuries they had come pretty close to perfecting all aspects of the lodge, including the safety of the participants. I have attended and even poured at lodges, and I would never participate in one where it is not possible to keep tabs on the well being of all participants. It's hard to imagine a lodge that size. Obviously this could not have been done in the Lakota or any other Native American tradition.
                                                • by didiwinyet October 19, 2009 1:24 AM EDT
                                                  Sadly he looks like Jim Jones. I dont know a thing about this guy..
                                                  but just the story about three deaths at his deal in the desert ..
                                                  tells me all I have to know.
                                                  ten grand ? Something doesnt make sense. Investigate do not
                                                  procrastinate.


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                                                Offline Anne Bonney

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                                                Re: Comments for "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation...," #s 31
                                                « Reply #74 on: July 30, 2010, 11:21:55 AM »
                                                Quote from: "Ursus"
                                                Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; Crimesider), #s 31-60:
                                                • by LightInformation October 14, 2009 9:28 AM EDT
                                                  It is so very revealing to see how people respond to tragic events we are responsible for creating...

                                                  how we respond essentially reveals our level of consciousness and our ability to live our Love, our Connection.

                                                  If I were pretending to be a GURU and "my followers" were willing to trust me to guide them into their transformation - I would stand by their side, regardless of the circumstances I created that actually led to people dying. I cannot believe that James would text such awful, disconnected, harmful responses to the tragedy that he caused -

                                                  Did you see the tweets that James left the night that his followers died?

                                                  These were posted on James Arthur Ray?s Twitter account during the Spiritual Warrior Event WHICH HE TRIED TO DELETE! Yet, these tweets can still be found on searching twitter!

                                                "JamesARay: is still in Spiritual Warrior... for anything new to live something first must die. What needs to die in you so that new life can emerge?"   :eek:  :eek:

                                                THIS WAS HIS TWEET THE NIGHT THAT HIS EVENT KILLED TWO PEOPLE! AND INJURED NEARLY 1/3 OF HIS "FOLLOWERS." Sounds like he was sitting comfortably in his hotel room while he left more than 60 of his followers traumatized, several- 29 or so injured and in the hospital, and two dead. He went to the comfort of his hotel, and his dis-connected mind to spout "spiritual" things - in complete denial of the damage he created!

                                                " JamesARay: Day 5 of SPW. The Spiritual Warrior has conquered death and therefore has no enemies, and no fear, in this life or the next."

                                                " JamesARay: SPW day 4. Your actions often speak louder than your words. A life of honor is living you values above and beyond your moods."

                                                IF JAMES HAD ANY CONSCIOUSNESS OF LOVE WITHIN HIM HE WOULD HAVE REFUSED TO FOLLOW HIS FEAR AND REPTILIAN BRAIN INSTINCTS TO FLEE THE SCENE, ABANDON HIS FOLLOWERS AND TO GO INTO SPOUTING SPIRITUAL MUMBO-JUMBO AS YOU CAN SEE AND FEEL FROM HIS TWEETS THE NIGHT OF HIS SO-CALLED "SPIRITUAL WARRIOR" TRAINING.

                                                IT IS SO EASY TO SAY "that was their destiny, they created their reality."

                                                Yet, also just as true is the REALITY CHECK lesson that a charasmatic con-man who manipulates people into following him...his "wisdom"...his teaching...his program- promising innocent, vulnerable, good-hearted people that they will receive an end to their pain, a solution to their problems, a transformed life with higher brainwave frequencies, and "financial freedom!" all in the name of feeding his already ridiculous sense of masculine "power" or rather - force equating to dominance, control and the illusion of power.

                                                listen to your own heart...dear Ones reading this!

                                                follow the Knowingness within.

                                                allow your self to be your own savior - as in the end it is only you who can save you and all the "leaders" will abandon you - just when you need them most! They are not here to protect you, save you, help you - they are here to get energy from you to fuel their ego dominant intentions - masked as "spiritual wisdom"

                                                All is revealed through consciousness...and is palpably evident in response to the events they set in motion.
                                                « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
                                                traight, St. Pete, early 80s
                                                AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

                                                The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa