Author Topic: Holding parents accountable  (Read 15889 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Holding parents accountable
« Reply #105 on: October 10, 2007, 09:56:50 PM »
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.

Have you suggested this to Miller, or any other politician? Where does one begin to get such a law enacted?  

Quote
To find out what is wrong with the kid you have to meet the parents.


I think this is frequently true. My ex wouldn't relent even when he reluctantly agreed to a mediation in which I presented documentation of the deaths that had occured in wilderness programs and plead with him to take our son out of Ridge Creek, Hidden Lake Academy's unlicensed wilderness (boot camp) program.
He said it wasn't a concern for him. It didn't worry him that they weren't licensed and seemed disinterested in the deaths. The therapist conducting the mediation was appalled.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Che Gookin

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Holding parents accountable
« Reply #106 on: October 11, 2007, 12:21:37 AM »
I'll leave the suggesting of new legislation to the congress to those who still believe in the legislative process. My faith in our goverment went the way of the dodo bird years ago.

All this hype about congress is at best pinning false hopes on the regulation of programmes. Such regulations that in the past that have consistently failed to address or protect the safety of the children.

The only thing I see coming out of it is awareness. This dovetails nicely with my long term view of properly educating the populace to the perils of the programmes. With time, patience, and persistence I believe that programmes will eventually fade out of existence due to the perponderance of information that works against them.

No laws will get rid of them or even come close to halting the abuse.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Holding parents accountable
« Reply #107 on: October 11, 2007, 12:41:43 AM »
I agree.

Regulating something intrinsically wrong and rotten to the core is like saying guard posts outside concentration camps keep them from being abusive.

You have the fix the problem and the problem is the premise of a program itself.
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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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what does work
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2007, 03:17:44 PM »
We adopted my son (and his sister) when he was 11 and she was 5. He lived with his birth mother, an addict until he was 7. He came to the attention of CYF after he threw a desk at his kindergarten teacher. They monitored the situation, offered his birth mother help and support, but when she left him alone with no food for 3 days with his 18 month old sister, they put them in foster care.  The first foster family was great and our son and duaghter thrived there, but birth mom entered a treatment program that allowed her to have her kids with her and so they went.  Our sone had to leave after he strangled a boy and trashed his room over a borrowed gameboy. The 2d foster home was not good, but when birht mom dropped out of the treatment center and back on crack, our daughter joined her brother there.  Six months later they were with us. Our son is now 16, 6 foot and 180 pounds. The first 9 months he was with us we got 1-2 calls a week from the public special ed school he was in telling us about his violent episodes-tossing desks, throwing hot coffee at aids, punching other students, etc. His therapist, who had worked with him for 3 years, convinced us it wasn't Andrew it was the school environment. We moved him, but then the violence started at home, over the last 5 years he has broken furniture, ripped doors off their hinges, punched his father, come after me with a chair leg, brused his father's larynex after trying to choke him, punched out another boy at a basketball tournament, punched his best friend's father when he tried to stop him from hitting someone, threatened to kill all of us in our sleep and then kill himself, stolen from us and others, hit therapists, etc.  He has been diagnosed with RAD, bi-polar and ODD. He is on meds, he has gone through a number of therapists and psychitrists, he has been hospitalized, we have gone through family therapy, he has been in state approved and regualted treatment centers that don't use restraints. Nothing has changed. We have been told not only by all the therapists and doctors, but even by our son, that we are not the cause of this, and that our rules and expectations are consistent and reasonable. Andrew says he agrees but he is angry, can't help himself, had a hard life before us and feels we should give him total freedom and supply him with all he desires to make up for that, etc. We are considering VisionQuest in Franklin PA, and we're told that while it does use wilderness therapy components, it is not a boot camp.  We don't want a boot camp, we don't want our son abused, but we can't let him continue to abuse us and we want to keep him safe and out of jail and help him help himself.  According to what I've read VisionQuest is JACHO approved, and has been studied by the Rand Corp and University of PA and found effective.  So, if any of you have other information or suggestions please let me know.
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Offline psy

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Re: what does work
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2007, 04:32:48 PM »
Quote from: ""a parent""
We adopted my son (and his sister) when he was 11 and she was 5. He lived with his birth mother, an addict until he was 7. He came to the attention of CYF after he threw a desk at his kindergarten teacher. They monitored the situation, offered his birth mother help and support, but when she left him alone with no food for 3 days with his 18 month old sister, they put them in foster care.  The first foster family was great and our son and duaghter thrived there, but birth mom entered a treatment program that allowed her to have her kids with her and so they went.  Our sone had to leave after he strangled a boy and trashed his room over a borrowed gameboy. The 2d foster home was not good, but when birht mom dropped out of the treatment center and back on crack, our daughter joined her brother there.  Six months later they were with us. Our son is now 16, 6 foot and 180 pounds. The first 9 months he was with us we got 1-2 calls a week from the public special ed school he was in telling us about his violent episodes-tossing desks, throwing hot coffee at aids, punching other students, etc. His therapist, who had worked with him for 3 years, convinced us it wasn't Andrew it was the school environment. We moved him, but then the violence started at home, over the last 5 years he has broken furniture, ripped doors off their hinges, punched his father, come after me with a chair leg, brused his father's larynex after trying to choke him, punched out another boy at a basketball tournament, punched his best friend's father when he tried to stop him from hitting someone, threatened to kill all of us in our sleep and then kill himself, stolen from us and others, hit therapists, etc.  He has been diagnosed with RAD, bi-polar and ODD. He is on meds, he has gone through a number of therapists and psychitrists, he has been hospitalized, we have gone through family therapy, he has been in state approved and regualted treatment centers that don't use restraints. Nothing has changed. We have been told not only by all the therapists and doctors, but even by our son, that we are not the cause of this, and that our rules and expectations are consistent and reasonable. Andrew says he agrees but he is angry, can't help himself, had a hard life before us and feels we should give him total freedom and supply him with all he desires to make up for that, etc. We are considering VisionQuest in Franklin PA, and we're told that while it does use wilderness therapy components, it is not a boot camp.  We don't want a boot camp, we don't want our son abused, but we can't let him continue to abuse us and we want to keep him safe and out of jail and help him help himself.  According to what I've read VisionQuest is JACHO approved, and has been studied by the Rand Corp and University of PA and found effective.  So, if any of you have other information or suggestions please let me know.

Um.  We get a lot of "parent impersonators" and your story is just a little convenient.  It could appear to a cynic that you are merely trying to scare parents into not making the same decision you did (regarding avoiding placement); creating an association between keeping the kid at home and imminent failure.

In the off chance that you are a real parent:
You can believe whatever marketing materials you like. If you haven't watched the congressional hearings, I suggest you should.  Some of those parents did all the "right" things too (in terms of checking up on programs), and yet their kids are still dead.  There is also no scientifically validated evidence whatsoever that these places actually work, anyway, so you're basically taking a crap-shoot with your kid's life and wellbeing.  The GAO testified that there have been thousands of instances of abuse and deaths in programs.  I was in a program. It is not fun.

As for VisionQuest?
it has it's own forum here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewforum.php?f=30

So.  Do due diligence and read...

Oh...  You wanted a solution?  A quick fix to get your kid under control?  Something tangible like a pizza you pay for and order to specifications?  Nope...  Program won't (ethically) "help" him either. If he's as violent as you describe, most programs have policies against admission, since he could very likely, given his past history, hurt another student.  They would probably accept him anyway, but if they're showing that kind of care towards other people's kids, what corners are they cutting with your own child's safety?

You could do this at home: buy a tazer and shock your kid whenever he annoys you?  Laughing?  It happens all the time in program, you just don't get to see it.  You could use pepper spray as well, as is commonly used in some programs for control.  Just spray your kid down with it when he gets out of line, or just says something you don't like.  It's what they do in some programs (and the kids with chemical burns proves it).  You find this insulting... you would never do such things to your kid?  Then why would you permit another to do it?

If you really are a parent, take a look at Maia Szalavitz's book on recovery options (haven't read it, but i hear it's good), or talk to the kid's shrink and tell him that a residential / wilderness / program is not an option.  He might need temporary hospitalization if he's an immediate threat to himself or others, but in my opinion a program would make the situation far worse.

Your kid sounds a bit impulsive as I was when I was young.  Medication helped me, then I no longer needed it so I went off it.

Quote
We have been told not only by all the therapists and doctors, but even by our son, that we are not the cause of this, and that our rules and expectations are consistent and reasonable. Andrew says he agrees but he is angry, can't help himself, had a hard life before us and feels we should give him total freedom and supply him with all he desires to make up for that, etc.

Your son does not strike me as very logical they way you are describing him.  I'd love to hear his side of the story, considering he might see things differently than you.

What rules does he object to?  What money / food / etc... does he demand (and again, parents often see these things differently).  Are you implying he feels "entitled" somehow?
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2007, 10:23:44 PM »
Quote from: ""lorrispickelmire""
Pitbull Mom,
You are right about some things you said, and I do have a tendency to see it in black and white.  I am a survivor of a home that was known for abuse, information was readily available and the parents who chose to place their kids in that particular home were absolutely wrong to do so.  I don't know about the facility you placed your son in but I do sympathize your loss.  I am not saying wanting to get help for their kids makes parents bad parents.  I feel as a society we have come to think of our children as problems, and their are a lot of self-absorbed people who are just flat out throwing their children away.  Several of the ladies that were in the home I was in were dropped off knowing that their parents were never coming back.  They were given to the home by their parents knowing that they were at the mercy of the staff until they were 18.  So you are right, the percentages are skewed among the survivors of that particular program.

I do sympathize your loss of your child, and I hope you will accept my apology, I should not lump everyone together with my own parents.  Please also keep an open mind regarding how many parents are just willing to throw their kids away, because they are out there and that is where all the anger toward parents comes from.  You can never absolutely protect your children, but a lot of parents don't even try.  I know you are not one of these, but they do exist.


Something about this post touched me. I think this person has hit on a real issue. While i maintain that the only person with any right to hold parents accountable is their own child and not a random stranger, it does seem that programs are a frightening but logical extension of western convenience culture. it is a natural impulse to try and make life more convenient . This is a very sinister extension of such a phenomenon.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2007, 10:29:23 PM »
[/i]Wandering Waygookin wrote:
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.


All cheap shots aside, would you support the same law for people who work at programs and fail to tell parents the truth? Who witness abuse and dont report it? What if the staff member was a recent program "graduate" I am not talking about extremes like hinton just your average program staff who feel they are doing something good.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Che Gookin

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Holding parents accountable
« Reply #112 on: October 13, 2007, 02:40:25 AM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
[/i]Wandering Waygookin wrote:
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.


All cheap shots aside, would you support the same law for people who work at programs and fail to tell parents the truth? Who witness abuse and dont report it? What if the staff member was a recent program "graduate" I am not talking about extremes like hinton just your average program staff who feel they are doing something good.


Personally it is in my experience that the program graduates tend to be more prone to being abusive and far more viscious than the regular staff members.

No I don't support a law making it manditory for staff to tell the truth to the parents.

I however am In full support of manditory reporting laws, which already exist, requiring witnesses of abuse towards children to report it.
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Offline hanzomon4

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Holding parents accountable
« Reply #113 on: October 13, 2007, 03:04:24 AM »
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
[/i]Wandering Waygookin wrote:
This is why I support a law charging parents with child abuse when they fail to ensure the safety of their children in a programme.


All cheap shots aside, would you support the same law for people who work at programs and fail to tell parents the truth? Who witness abuse and dont report it? What if the staff member was a recent program "graduate" I am not talking about extremes like hinton just your average program staff who feel they are doing something good.

Personally it is in my experience that the program graduates tend to be more prone to being abusive and far more viscious than the regular staff members.

No I don't support a law making it manditory for staff to tell the truth to the parents.

I however am In full support of manditory reporting laws, which already exist, requiring witnesses of abuse towards children to report it.


Why not?
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i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2007, 03:11:05 AM »
Because as a law it would be legally unenforcable.

Who would think it? A businessman being less than honest to one of his customers???

Lords.. perish the thought.

And besides.. I'm of the convinction that the majority of the parents would be more inclined to sweep it under the rug. By keeping it out of the parents hands I believe the kids have a better chance with the legal authorities.

Remember.. I witnessed well over half of the parents practically getting hard ons from the thought that their kids were doing hard time.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2007, 03:12:30 AM »
Because as a law it would be legally unenforcable.

Who would think it? A businessman being less than honest to one of his customers???

Lords.. perish the thought.

And besides.. I'm of the convinction that the majority of the parents would be more inclined to sweep it under the rug. By keeping it out of the parents hands I believe the kids have a better chance with the legal authorities.

Remember.. I witnessed well over half of the parents practically getting hard ons from the thought that their kids were doing hard time.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #116 on: October 13, 2007, 03:16:33 AM »
Quote from: ""Wandering Waygookin""

Remember.. I witnessed well over half of the parents practically getting hard ons from the thought that their kids were doing hard time.


Absolutely.  I recall the joy with which parents at Straight would congratulate each other on  their "strength" and "commitment" and the sadistic glee they would exhibit when talking about the "consequences" that the kids would be going through.  A sick bunch, those program parents.  They should absolutely be held accountable for the abuses their kids suffer---for them to claim they were "brainwashed" is laughable.  They are complicit in the abuse of their own children.
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Offline Oz girl

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« Reply #117 on: October 13, 2007, 03:22:15 AM »
if staff are not accountable for telling parents the truth then how can parents reasonably be expected to know in every case?  obviously if it is a place with a lot of negative publicity or a current publically known death count it is a simple matter of doing a google search.

But if a place is new or "natsap accredited", if the child's legitimate psychiatrist recommends it or an ed con is paid a lot of money to research it, and there is not a history of abuse in the kid's family, then the parents are not the only ones responsible. While their kids possibly  legitimately hold them accountable this is a matter for the family not the state.

BTW i am not surprised that you say a program graduate is likely to be brutal. They have become a true believer. By the same token i dont see that they are necessarily 100% responsible either. They are as much victim as perpetrator. With this in mind i cant see how anyone can appoint them self judge or jury and assume responsiblity for accountability. This is a complex problem with many different issues involved. it is not black and white and thus it seems pointless to go back and forth about whose fault it is when the responsiblity is shared between the program, the parent and the wider community.
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n case you\'re worried about what\'s going to become of the younger generation, it\'s going to grow up and start worrying about the younger generation.-Roger Allen

Offline Che Gookin

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« Reply #118 on: October 13, 2007, 06:22:37 AM »
So in short your child never really is your child. If I bring a life into this world I view it as my sole 100 percent responsibility for ensuring my child's safety to the best of my abilities. Does this require perfection at all times?

Absolutely not...

It is on this note I have to point out that the sheer perponderane of evidence against programs practically ensures that a parent is negligent by the mere action of sending their child to a program. They are further guilty of child abuse for keeping their child in a program upon discovery of the possibility that their child could and probably is being neglected or abused.

That is for the unwitting accomplice.

The sad truth is more often than you want to suspect, I suppose to maintain this pathetic atmosphere of being friendly on fornits, is parents are willing and knowing accomplices.

NO pain NO gain.. blah blah.. bullshit.

And the rest is merely blah blah blah.. whine blah.. boring shit.

Really.. I begin to wonder if that anon was right when he or she used to go around saying, "I HOPE YOUR KID KILLS YOU."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #119 on: October 13, 2007, 10:57:58 AM »
I send my murdergram
To all these monster kids
It comes right back to me and it's
Signed in their parents blood
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