Author Topic: Sex occurs on campus  (Read 9818 times)

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2007, 05:12:02 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
With all of this "fall-out" being given recently on this sight I am having trouble understanding posts in the past that said staff would ride you during fall out sessions until you made something up even if you didn't know anything.  It seems to me that you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to have any fall out to write down.  

Whether or not you think fall out is a good idea, you have to admit that when kids said that they didn't know anything they were full of crap.  Can someone on here at least admit that? Even if you  think the whole concept of fall out is evil.


The narc method isn't 'effective'. It doesn't work. Can you just admit that. Short on the real skills needed for working with teens, programs resort to such BS and call it 'therapy'. Did even one kid in the history of HLA "agree" to the "agreements". Isn't that manipulation on the part of the program? Rules are rules. Call them that. Narcing is narcing. And if the rules weren't so unrealistic and the consequences so severe, perhaps there 'might' be more narcing.
Lots of survivors read/post here. Ask them why they didn't narc on their friends. Why it wasn't effective.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2007, 05:12:37 PM »
I get what you are saying and can agree with you way of thinking.  I am just looking for someone to stand up and say that it is a load of crap for a student at HLA to say "I don't know anything" in regards to fall out.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2007, 05:18:17 PM »
Also...I know a lot of counselors didn't do it this way but the way it was SUPPOSED to happen is that you were not to get into trouble if you came out with something on fall out.  You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out.  That is how I did it with my groups.  I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.  They other way makes no sense at all.  You are right that it encourages lying.  I never put a kid on restriction for knowing something about another student as long as they put it on their fall out list.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2007, 05:27:45 PM »
Quote
The narc method isn't 'effective'. It doesn't work. Can you just admit that. Short on the real skills needed for working with teens, programs resort to such BS and call it 'therapy'. Did even one kid in the history of HLA "agree" to the "agreements". Isn't that manipulation on the part of the program? Rules are rules. Call them that. Narcing is narcing. And if the rules weren't so unrealistic and the consequences so severe, perhaps there 'might' be more narcing.
Lots of survivors read/post here. Ask them why they didn't narc on their friends. Why it wasn't effective.


I have no problem admitting that it is not effective.  The most meaningful "fallout" that I received from kids was when I was able to help cultivate an atmosphere of genuine caring within the Peer Group.  Then the kids would come to me on their own and tell me things that they were concerned about among their peers.  I also told them that I didn't care about getting any fallout unless it had to do with one of the three main agreements or if they new someone was running away.  I really couldn't care less about the little rules in regards to fall out.  

Now, and this is really geared toward the kids, will someone admit that students are full of it when they say that they don't know anything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline RobertBruce

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« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2007, 05:46:44 PM »
No.

Here's the best way to describe it:

"Most of the time they screamed abuse at him and threatened at every hesitation to deliver him over to the guards again; but sometimes they would suddenly change their tune, call him comrade, appeal to him in the name of Ingsoc and Big Brother, and ask him sorrowfully whether even now, he had not enough loyalty to the Party left to make him wish to undo the evil he had done. When his nerves were in rags after hours of questioning, even this appeal could reduce him to sniveling tears. In the end the nagging voices broke him down more completely than the boots and fists of the guards. He became simply a mouth that uttered, a hand that signed whatever was demanded of him. His sole concern was to find out what they wanted him to confess, and then confess it quickly, before the bullying started anew. He confessed to assassination of eminent Party members, the distribution of seditious pamphlets, embezzlement of public funds, sale of military secrets, sabotage of every kind. He confessed that he had been a spy in the pay of the Eastasian government as far back as 1968. He confessed that he was a religious believer, an admirer of capitalism, and a sexual pervert. He confessed that he had murdered his wife, although he knew , and his questioners must have known, that his wife was still alive. He confessed that for years he had been in personal touch with Goldstein and had been a member of an underground organization which had included almost every human being he had ever known. It was easier to confess everything and implicate everybody. Besides  in a sense it swas all true. It was true that he had been the enemy of the Party, and in the eyes of the Party there was no distinction between the thought and the deed."

That was a fallout session right there, it didnt matter whether you knew anything or not, and often you didnt. It was more important that you confess something, anything, whether it was true or not was irrellevant.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2007, 06:03:32 PM »
My child was screamed at, and screamed at, because my child had nothing to write one session.  then my child was given 50 push -ups.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2007, 06:05:00 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
I get what you are saying and can agree with you way of thinking.  I am just looking for someone to stand up and say that it is a load of crap for a student at HLA to say "I don't know anything" in regards to fall out.


What's the point. A "load of crap" response to a "load of crap" method. Why do you expect anything else? Is one really any worse than the other? And we haven't even touched on kids being put on restrictions for false allegations written in fall out sheets. No apologies, just tough luck.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #52 on: June 12, 2007, 06:09:18 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out.  That is how I did it with my groups.  I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.


With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Deborah

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« Reply #53 on: June 12, 2007, 06:15:42 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
I have no problem admitting that it is not effective.  The most meaningful "fallout" that I received from kids was when I was able to help cultivate an atmosphere of genuine caring within the Peer Group.  Then the kids would come to me on their own and tell me things that they were concerned about among their peers.


The question: why weren't they coming to you with issue about themselves that caused them concern?
Might've been genuine, but I can see how this could just be a different technique for narcing.
How did you determine if a kid was guilty of the allegations? How did you know who was lying? Did you ever apologize for wrongly punishing?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2007, 06:58:38 PM »
the fallout system is a load of crap. first, kids dont narc becouse not minding your own bussiness is as unethical as rape or murder. especially for kids who grow up in urban areas, everyone knows snitches get stitches.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2007, 07:06:44 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest""
You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out.  That is how I did it with my groups.  I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.

With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?


You always take a risk when you tell on someone.  I expected the kids to tell when they knew that someone was putting themselves or someone else in danger.  You don't seem to agree with that.  That's fine.  If my child were doing drugs on campus and another student knew about it, I hope they would tell on my kid.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2007, 07:16:40 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest""
I have no problem admitting that it is not effective.  The most meaningful "fallout" that I received from kids was when I was able to help cultivate an atmosphere of genuine caring within the Peer Group.  Then the kids would come to me on their own and tell me things that they were concerned about among their peers.

The question: why weren't they coming to you with issue about themselves that caused them concern?
Might've been genuine, but I can see how this could just be a different technique for narcing.
How did you determine if a kid was guilty of the allegations? How did you know who was lying? Did you ever apologize for wrongly punishing?


They did come to me with issues that concerned themselves.

There were definitely times when kids were just trying to get someone in trouble.  I dealt with that as a separate issue.  I would investigate the allegations before putting kids on restrictions.

There is only one time that I know of that I put a kid on restriction when they did not deserve it.  How do I know?  I asked every kid before they left the school.  Every time, except for once, I got the answer that they had done it every time I put them on.  The one that said I put him on when he didn't do it told me that it was okay, when I apologized to him.  He said, "I just looked at that restriction as being for all the things I did that you never caught me for."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #57 on: June 12, 2007, 07:19:32 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
the fallout system is a load of crap. first, kids dont narc becouse not minding your own bussiness is as unethical as rape or murder. especially for kids who grow up in urban areas, everyone knows snitches get stitches.


Nice code of ethics you have there.  How about running that by someone who has been raped and see if they agree with you.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #58 on: June 12, 2007, 10:02:00 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""Guest""
You were suppose to get into trouble if it turns out you knew something that came out and you didn't write it on fall out.  That is how I did it with my groups.  I would always tell me kids that fallout was a way for them to stay out of trouble, not get in to it.

With whom? Sure didn't keep them out of trouble with their peers. How many kids were victims of retaliation?

You always take a risk when you tell on someone.  I expected the kids to tell when they knew that someone was putting themselves or someone else in danger.  You don't seem to agree with that.  That's fine.

How many kids were in imminent danger and how many were "holding hands with the opposite sex"?  

Quote
If my child were doing drugs on campus and another student knew about it, I hope they would tell on my kid.


If a staff was abusing my son, I hope another staff would tell on him/her. How often does that happen???? In my experience.... Never.  Isn't it true that there is a double-standard in operation at HLA, okay for staff not to tattletale, but kids are required?
You know the #1 thing kids HATE? Double-standards. Discrepency. Staff exhibiting these will never gain the kids full trust or respect. That's a fundamental flaw in all programs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #59 on: June 12, 2007, 10:07:53 PM »
Fall Out is a load of crap. Kids would make stuff up about each other or they'd make stuff up about themselves just to get out of Fall Out. My child's counselor wouldn't let the kids leave Fall Out until they wrote something because he swore he knew they had done something wrong and just needed to admit it - how screwed up is that??? And when the kids were honest about events that occurred or their feelings, he'd put them on Restrictions (yes, even for things that weren't considered "restriction" rules). Now you tell me how that is therapeutic?

The only thing he accomplished was making kids fear and resent telling the truth because they would be punished for being honest. The end result was the kids would lie or hide their feelings or make things up that weren't quite so bad so the punishment wouldn't be so severe and the counselor would be satisfied that he'd made breakthroughs with these kids. Pathetic? Yes. Therapeutic? Not one bit.

Retaliation? Oh yeah - Talk to the boys about getting the crap beaten out of them at night. It's well known if you "snitched" you'd were going to get an ass beating. The boys would distract the night staff and then beat up the "snitch". Most of the times this occurred in the bathrooms because it was easy to trap a kid in there while another group had the night staff distracted out in the hallway or one of the bedrooms.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »