Author Topic: More than PTSD?  (Read 4597 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2005, 12:14:00 PM »
I think what you said needs to be taken in context.


When Betty Sembler says "They need to move on", she really means "I wish they would quit reminding me of the abuse my cult dished out to them, I really wish they'd shut up about it so I can continue with my fraud and fucked-up power trip".

I believe that Anon meant "It is possible to heal from the damage inflicted by Straight and not be constantly preoccupied with it."


I think that the preoccupation with Straight is part of the "process" (please excuse the borderline thera-speak) of understanding what happened there, what it did to us, and beginning to cope with this painful knowledge, and get some kind of bearing as to where we are today, because of/in spite of what we went through at Straight.

Don't confuse "Move on" with "forget about it".


rtp2k3
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2005, 12:26:00 PM »
W/e.  Sounded a little snippy.  I don't think anyone on this thread or any other has told you to "get a life".  THOSE are Betty's words.  People have told you what they've done to try and move on.    RTP and others make a good point when they talk about understanding the process.  Sorry none of its working for you.  Hoep you're able to find some peace.  I think everyone who has posted on this thread wishes you that.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2005, 12:37:00 PM »
Withdraw, nobody called you a "bitch", they were talking about Betty Sembler.

I agree with you about the whole "move on" thing. It doesn't work. Those are loaded words anyways.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2005, 12:55:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-11 08:04:00, Withdraw wrote:

I'm sorry Anon if that sounds Harsh, why are you still afraid of the truth? (I'm not asking for an answer to that, but it's something to think on.) It's harsh to just come out and say it?


The harshness was to compare what people have posted here trying to help in some way to what Betty Sembler said.  What truth would that be that you think anyone is afraid of?  Looks to me like a bunch of people responded to you, trying to express what they've done, trying to help in some way.  You coming back and likening it to Betty telling us to 'get a life' was, IMO, harsh.  Hope you find the answers you obviously feel you didn't get here.  Peace.
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Offline Carmel

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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2005, 01:21:00 PM »
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On 2005-11-11 08:08:00, Withdraw wrote:

"That post isn't to you Carmel. You probably knew that.



Ok, so moving on = healing? I don't get that. Doesn't that invalidate us somehow? Doesn't that perpetuate "the coverup" more? How can we achieve validation and stay "healed". That is one of the parts I am missing here. That function of my brain is faulty or something. I can't process that information for some reason. It is blocked by something. I am not sure what that is. The words I use for it is: I have lost my soul somewhere, I heard it was in an  chair in a non descript warehouse in Va. How do I retrieve it? I want it back![ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 08:14 ]"


Honestly? I dont really think it invalidates us at all. What would be your idea of "getting better"?  And how does that idea compare to your idea of "getting validation"? All that remains of any perpetuation is the power we give to what was done to us....by allowing it rule over us once more.  I view that as much more of a perpetuation than letting go.

Acceptance of our past does not mean denial of our past.  However there is rarely ever absolute justice in the world, and that is obscured even more by our own perceptions of what we think we deserve or need.

I have to be very honest in saying that as far as I see it, all you need to do to get your soul back as you put it....is to reach out and take it. I dont know that their is another answer. No one is going to hand it to you.  

Choosing to live proudly and without regret remorse or bitterness is the real challenge. Redefining you perspective of what counts in this life might be a good start.
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Offline Gah

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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2005, 01:30:00 PM »
I understand what Withdraw is saying and what she is searching for. I have the same issue. I cant heal myself either. Please let me know when you find the answer!!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2005, 02:05:00 PM »
I understand what she's saying too.  I've been going through it for God knows how many years now.  I think the point of a lot of the posts on here is that there IS no "answer".  At least not one answer for everyone.  People have posted what they've done to try and deal with it, nothing more.  Sorry if those didn't meet up with your expectations.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2005, 02:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-11 08:08:00, Withdraw wrote:

"That post isn't to you Carmel. You probably knew that.



Ok, so moving on = healing? I don't get that. Doesn't that invalidate us somehow? Doesn't that perpetuate "the coverup" more? How can we achieve validation and stay "healed". That is one of the parts I am missing here. That function of my brain is faulty or something. I can't process that information for some reason. It is blocked by something. I am not sure what that is. The words I use for it is: I have lost my soul somewhere, I heard it was in an  chair in a non descript warehouse in Va. How do I retrieve it? I want it back![ This Message was edited by: Withdraw on 2005-11-11 08:14 ]"


I really feel for you on this. Sometimes I feel like this too and there are so many other things I need to heal from besides straight it becomes overwhelming. I have tried counseling twice since being out to no avail.

What has helped me is finding these boards and reconnecting with other survivors. I get sad that I have no long term connections because when I went into the program I lost all my childhood friends. I also only surround myself with people that love and care about me now. For many years I allowed toxic people into my life that it just made things worse. Basically, I'm just here working with what I have and trying to make it through each day.

wc
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Offline Antigen

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More than PTSD?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2005, 03:56:00 PM »
I think there are two main side effects to brainwashing.

There's almost always some trauma. And it's almost entirely perceptual. I got stuck thinking about this last night for a long time. I didn't mean to be shocking, but I think I did shock the shit out of our gracious radio hosts last night when I said I was Sammie's oldcomer. I just thought that, w/ very limited time and another caller holding the line, that was the quickest, most efficient way to explain that I was in there and when. I just didn't want to spend the entire hour rehashing, again and again, that yes, it was indeed horrible and obscene and bizarre. I dearly want to try and move the public discussion from the freak show aspect of it on to the point of why in the hell that shoud matter to anybody.

But I think I missed the mark. And so I'll keep on slinging ideas at the wall and see if I can find either a clever turn of a phrase or two or a longer string of words that's engaging enough to hold someone's attention long enough to get the point accross.

So there's this perception of trauma. If you--who had not had 10 years of involvement w/ the Seed--got slammed to the floor and held down or wittnessed that happening to others, that was truely frightening and traumatic. I didn't see it that way. Not that I thought it was good or right or that whoever was on the bottom of the dogpile that day deserved it or anything. I just knew there was no prevailing against the insanity and that, eventually, we'd all get out. Bruises and broken bones heal. They really and truely did NOT want anybody dying on their shift. There was a limit to how far Staff would let things go. It was all theatre. There was no real danger. I believed it and it kept me sane, or so I thought.

So I wasn't really scared of any external threat. My sincere apologies to everyone I didn't 'see' getting hurt.

The other side of it is much more difficult to explain, even to ppl who were there. It's all about what the process compels us to do to ourselves.

I can only remember about two moments in all the time I was in there when I was accutely and terrifyingly aware of this other side of the process.

One was when they stood up a girl who'd split for a couple of months. As they played out their predictable, Program scripted lines complete w/ tears and drama and all that, it became clear to me (I think to all of us) that they had forced this girl to have an abortion. That shocked me! Until that moment, I honestly thought that something like forced abortion was out of bounds; that staff would never dare go there, that if a girl turned up pregnant, it was an automatic ticket out. Like suicide, a permanent solution to a temporary problem (yeah, I had considered both).

As this horrifying reality dawned on me, I flashed back to just before my sister went into the Seed. And the pieces fell into place like some fucked up puzzle; the day in the hospital, the tears and all that. I think I split for the second time not long after that.

That was still about what they could do to us, though. Thick as a brick, maybe it was a survival tactic, but I still didn't clue in on how I was changing; not till Bobby R's marathon. Long story short, I got called on in a fairly typical come down rap and I delivered my lines as convincingly as I had to. I yelled at Bobby for being defiant because he kept swaying and making the kids who were marathoning him sort of prop him up while staring at the back of the wall. Not that I was actually mad at him or anything. Just that, well, that's what you had to do to get by. You had to put on a convincing act. Again, my apologies to anyone who took anything I said or did in there as sincere. I honestly thought we were mostly all on the same page and those who meant it, well, they were just pathetic and no concern of mine.

Next, Bobby's sister got called on. As soon as she started talking, Bobby's whole posture and demeanor changed. He got anxious and excited and... well, animated. He was searching w/ his eyes trying to find the source of his sister's voice and he could not find it! Still makes me cry today, damn it! All in a moment, I realized that 1) this kid had had enough, he was broken, damaged, unaware of his surroundings, 2) that it really didn't matter, they were not going to let up, he went back up the stairs w/ much "assistance" and the beating continued.

Then horrifying reality hit me like a boot to the head. I should break ranks, bolt for a phone (the office? no, out the door, over the fence and to the lumber yard next door) and call an abulance or his parents or any damned body before these crazy bastards killed Bobby. Was anybody else noticing? If I made a move, would it start a mass revolt or would they all just tackle me? I didn't know and, much to my shame, didn't have the guts to find out. Instead, I was relieved when Staff called for another song and it was just asif nothing had ever happened, except for one thing. I was fucking getting out of that place and away from those crazy people.

That's the real danger of therapeutic community or LGA style "therapy". It's fucking powerfully effective! Not the least bit theraputic or conducive to community building. But it damned sure works!

And it wasn't just a few of us, it didn't work on only the weak or sadistic or any such thing. It works pretty effectively on so many that the rare sane person who sees it happening and is not changed by it always comes off as the lunatic.

Inside those warehouses and foster homes, we got a potent, geared up, intense dose of something. But it works the same way in the general population. And most of us came to accept, for a time, behavior so far out of line w/ the rest of society that we have a hard time even convincing anyone that it happened. A lot of ppl have even remarked that, till they hooked up w/ other eye wittnesses, they weren't entirely sure themselves that it actually happened.

No social proof, no discussion, no one in sight acknowledging or even registering w/ facial expressions or other gestures that anything bad had happened. That's SO much more powerful than most people understand.

So that makes us different. Just that fact that, whether you ever sat yourself down with yourself and tried to figure it out, all of us have something in common w/ old Germans that most Americans can't fathom; even in the very moment when they're cheering on the ATF on live national TV fire bombing children in a weird little compound located closer to the bombastic Büsh kid's pretend ranch than the ranch is to the recenly incorporated 'town' of Crawford, Texas.

But is it really damage? Or is it education? Since I can't undo it, I just prefer to think of it as education. And I try to use what I've learned to sort of innoculate my kids against it and, for Christ's sake, to get the word out to as many others as will listen.


Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor



_________________
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Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Froderik

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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2005, 07:04:00 PM »
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Drugs. Lots and lots of drugs.

Hey, that's MY line. :smile:
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Offline Dr Fucktard

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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2005, 07:54:00 PM »
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I have done many native ceremonies, sweat lodges... etc, But never with the intent of recovering from Straight's trauma.

Withdraw, there's nothing wrong with you that a good old fashioned Bust Ass Rap® wouldn't fix. ::hehehmm::

Love ya! :wave:

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2005, 08:02:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-11 12:56:00, Antigen wrote:

"I think there are two main side effects to brainwashing.



There's almost always some trauma. And it's almost entirely perceptual. I got stuck thinking about this last night for a long time. I didn't mean to be shocking, but I think I did shock the shit out of our gracious radio hosts last night when I said I was Sammie's oldcomer. I just thought that, w/ very limited time and another caller holding the line, that was the quickest, most efficient way to explain that I was in there and when. I just didn't want to spend the entire hour rehashing, again and again, that yes, it was indeed horrible and obscene and bizarre. I dearly want to try and move the public discussion from the freak show aspect of it on to the point of why in the hell that matters to everybody.



But I think I missed the mark. And so I'll keep on slinging ideas at the wall and see if I can find either a clever turn of a phrase or two or a longer string of words that's engaging enough to hold someone's attention long enough to get the point accross.



So there's this perception of trauma. If you--who had not had 10 years of involvement w/ the Seed--got slammed to the floor and held down or wittnessed that happening to others, that was truely frightening and traumatic. I didn't see it that way. Not that I thought it was good or right or that whoever was on the bottom of the dogpile that day deserved it or anything. I just knew there was no prevailing against the insanity and that, eventually, we'd all get out. Bruises and broken bones heal. They really and truely did NOT want anybody dying on their shift. There was a limit to how far Staff would let things go. It was all theatre. There was no real danger. I believed it and it kept me sane, or so I thought.



So I wasn't really scared of any external threat. My sincere apologies to everyone I didn't 'see' getting hurt.



The other side of it is much more difficult to explain, even to ppl who were there. It's all about what the process compels us to do to ourselves.



I can only remember about two moments in all the time I was in there when I was accutely and terrifyingly aware of this other side of the process.



One was when they stood up a girl who'd split for a couple of months. As they played out their predictable, Program scripted lines complete w/ tears and drama and all that, it became clear to me (I think to all of us) that they had forced this girl to have an abortion. That shocked me! Until that moment, I honestly thought that something like forced abortion was out of bounds; that staff would never dare go there, that if a girl turned up pregnant, it was an automatic ticket out. Like suicide, a permanent solution to a temporary problem (yeah, I had considered both).



As this horrifying reality dawned on me, I flashed back to just before my sister went into the Seed. And the pieces fell into place like some fucked up puzzle; the day in the hospital, the tears and all that. I think I split for the second time not long after that.



That was still about what they could do to us, though. Thick as a brick, maybe it was a survival tactic, but I still didn't clue in on how I was changing; not till Bobby R's marathon. Long story short, I got called on in a fairly typical come down rap and I delivered my lines as convincingly as I had to. I yelled at Bobby for being defiant because he kept swaying and making the kids who were marathoning him sort of prop him up while staring at the back of the wall. Not that I was actually mad at him or anything. Just that, well, that's what you had to do to get by. You had to put on a convincing act. Again, my apologies to anyone who took anything I said or did in there as sincere. I honestly thought we were mostly all on the same page and those who meant it, well, they were just pathetic and no concern of mine.



Next, Bobby's sister got called on. As soon as she started talking, Bobby's whole posture and demeanor changed. He got anxious and excited and... well, animated. He was searching w/ his eyes trying to find the source of his sister's voice and he could not find it! Still makes me cry today, damn it! All in a moment, I realized that 1) this kid had had enough, he was broken, damaged, unaware of his surroundings, 2) that it really didn't matter, they were not going to let up, he went back up the stairs w/ much "assistance" and the beating continued.



Then horrifying reality hit me like a boot to the head. I should break ranks, bolt for a phone (the office? no, out the door, over the fence and to the lumber yard next door) and call an abulance or his parents or any damned body before these crazy bastards killed Bobby. Was anybody else noticing? If I made a move, would it start a mass revolt or would they all just tackle me? I didn't know and, much to my shame, didn't have the guts to find out. Instead, I was relieved when Staff called for another song and it was just asif nothing had ever happened, except for one thing. I was fucking getting out of that place and away from those crazy people.



That's the real danger of therapeutic community or LGA style "therapy". It's fucking powerfully effective! Not the least bit theraputic or conducive to community building. But it damned sure works!



And it wasn't just a few of us, it didn't work on only the weak or sadistic or any such thing. It works pretty effectively on so many that the rare sane person who sees it happening and is not changed by it always comes off as the lunatic.



Inside those warehouses and foster homes, we got a potent, geared up, intense dose of something. But it works the same way in the general population. And most of us came to accept, for a time, behavior so far out of line w/ the rest of society that we have a hard time even convincing anyone that it happened. A lot of ppl have even remarked that, till they hooked up w/ other eye wittnesses, they weren't entirely sure themselves that it actually happened.



No social proof, no discussion, no one in sight acknowledging or even registering w/ facial expressions or other gestures that anything bad had happened. That's SO much more powerful than most people understand.



So that makes us different. Just that fact that, whether you ever sat yourself down with yourself and tried to figure it out, all of us have something in common w/ old Germans that most Americans can't fathom; even in the very moment when they're cheering on the ATF on live national TV fire bombing children in a weird little compound located closer to the bombastic Büsh kid's pretend ranch than the ranch is to the recenly incorporated 'town' of Crawford, Texas.



But is it really damage? Or is it education? Since I can't undo it, I just prefer to think of it as education. And I try to use what I've learned to sort of innoculate my kids against it and, for Christ's sake, to get the word out to as many others as will listen.





Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.

--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor





_________________

Drug war POW

Straight, Sarasota

`80 - `82"

Perhaps I'll wait for the condensed version...
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Offline 001010

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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2005, 09:09:00 PM »
Anon, you're an idiot...

A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another; shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement
http://lfb.com/?stocknumber=FF7485&code=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson  

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[size=79]EST (Landmark/Lifespring/Discovery) \'83
Salesmanship Club \'84-\'86
Straight, Inc. \'86-\'88[/size]

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2005, 09:15:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-11 18:09:00, 001010 wrote:

"Anon, you're an idiot...


Thanks, 001010. But no, he's not. I know who he is and regard him as a friend. I don't think I really wrote that for ya'll who already know the story. I was trying to explain it to those who don't.

So... you read the whole damned thing? Thanks! What do you think? Did I make a point? Any point? What was it? I'm really trying hard here to put together a string of words that will entertain our short attention span society long enough to fucking explain what the hell we're so upset about. Am I getting close? Any suggestions?

It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was
made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions.
There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to
govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be
masters.

--Daniel Webster

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Offline Dr Fucktard

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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2005, 10:02:00 PM »
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I also only surround myself with people that love and care about me now. For many years I allowed toxic people into my life that it just made things worse.

Kudos to you, wc! Very well said. It's important to surround yourself with people that love and care about you (like the group) and to keep the 'toxic' druggies out of your life. You don't need them -- not at all. Their influence will only lead you to INSANITY, JAIL or DEATH. Deep down you have always known this. It's good to hear you say it here.
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