Thank you john for so directly responding and for the apology. I sincerely appreciate it.
As for my suggestion you apologize for those you may have harmed during your tenure at the seed, that was merely a suggestion on my part and I have no direct need for it personally..
Ahh, violence at the seed. I will tell you now why I believe Fuelaw was roughed up,and I will also be the first to throw it down that I have no first hand knowledge of it nor do I know the extent, if any, of your participation.
But violence at the seed. The topic first... I don't like it. In my opinion it negates the real problems with the treatment model. You can do away with all the violence, the temper tantrums, the threats and so forth and the basic treatment model is still wrong and harmfull.
But violence at the seed, whether overt or suggested, was a daily threat to us youngsters. Let me pontificate a little here.
First, the threat at intake was of a violent nature. If you do not sign yourself in, you are going to be declared incorrigible and go to JDC, and do you know what happens to kids at JDC? This was the threat I received, an overt threat that I either sign myself in or face possible anal rape. I was to weak and scared at 14 to even face the possibility of that, even tho I did put up a couragious fight and call the staff member who strip searched me a faggot while looking him in the eye and after exposing my organ I asked him "are you happy now". A juvenile statement and insensitive to homosexuals but one born of defiance.
Second, the threat once place on the first row. If you don't comply, we will have you court ordered and you will stay in captivity for longer, and if you still don't comply you will be placed in Jail/juvy. Again, the overt sexual connotation/threat.
Next, the Guards at the door, and the propensity for these guards to throw people to the concrete in an extremely one sided free for all action. Just witnessing this once in my first three days was enough for me, I wasn't going to physically challenge those older kids with testosterone in their muscles, something my strong but pre-pubscent body was lacking. The threat of physicall violence was always there.
Next, The constant MEAN spirited poking and prodding from behind for soley letting your back touch the chair or from nodding off from lack of sleep, exercise and from emotional duress. This was orwellian and cruel in the extreme, more on the line of torture than actual violence, but it was a constant reminder of what could and would happen if you didn't comply.
still again, the come down on you raps often reached threatening and frightening proportions, bordering on direct physical threats. I specifically remember people screaming things like "on the streets I would have raped you" to girls and " in prison you would be someone's girlfriend". With the threat of prison held over all our heads, the implied violence was constant.
Going further, the infamous parental beatings at the St Pete Seed. Not only did they occur, and people have repeatedly logged on this site with independent memories of it along with accounts in the press and testimony from parents, But even worse, after they occured they were used as THREATS against the rest of us. "don't think we can't get your parents in here" type of stuff.
Going further John, You struck a rather imposing physical presence to us youngsters, and you often became a frothing maniac, bordering on very scary, when screaming and belittling us in front of other people. Think back John. I have and I can see your face and demeaner as I type this.
Still again people would break pieces of the chair off and cut themselves with it and while bleeding get stood up and yelled at. This is extremely violent imagery to a captive person, especially a young one.
Lastly, I participated in violent actions against other seedlings IN FRONT OF SENIOR STAFF. Its true, and not only did I do it, so did another senior staff member. We took a 14 year old kid who broke free and ran for it in the parking lot, and tackled him ONTO THE PAVEMENT, held him down and threatened him physically into submission. He came up bloody, he was violently grabbed by the senior staff member, dragged in front of I believe Suzy who seethed.."get him back in group" or something to that effect.
lastly, "boys" rap to me felt like violence. Here I was, devoid of any sexual experience, being shoved into a group of boys and asked to "relate" my sexual experiences or lack therof. It was a frightening experience that had me physically trembling before every "boys" rap.
Other people have other stories, but that is violence at the seed from GregFl's perspective. It not only existed in actuality, but the constant threat of being hurt during an escape, being locked up and raped, having your self beat up by a proxy of staff (being your own parent) being stuck in the back, or worse, if non-compliant being denied the basic right to take a piss or go number 2 until it appeared you were going to go in your pants. BTW, was there specific junior staff instruction on this bit of behavior modification? Because many many people have this as one of their number one complaints. Being reduced to such a helpless captive that even urinating or moving your bowels was a privelige withheld to those not in compliance and then to have these actions watched and logged into a book? Care to clear up the reasoning for that? I think I know John that it was really just a terror technique. we are being honest here, right? I even remember the term, "you can just sit in your shit". this is violent, degrading, humiliating, and orwelian treatment of youngsters.
Now, back to Fuelaw. When this occured he was 13. He was defiant, he was small, and what may have seemed like a small jerking of the arm or slam against a wall could have seemed like a giant ass beating to him. I am just speculating. I really don't know the story in detail and maybe he would like to post it in totality for rebuttal. I cannot honestly comment on what occured but I will honestly say it does not surprise me. I was there in 1973 and felt the violence charged atmosphere.
Bringing us full circle to 2005. I am very sincere when I tell you I forgive you and all involved. You may not feel like you need or want my forgiveness, but I give it to you unconditionally. You may feel the end justified the means and that "saving lives" was more important than the other result, the result you see here on this forum where many many people have logged on and shared the torment of their involvement with The Seed. It is real John,it is not sour grapes or a bunch of failures trying to justify their failure. Most of us are well adjusted adults that frankly don't need to keep bringing this stuff up everyday. I do this for a different reason. I don't need the therapy..I don't need the constant reminder, and I don't get angry, upset, emotional or otherwise stuck back there when I discuss it. Others need to go thru this and come out the otherside. This forum is in honor of those people and in honor of our shared experiences.
But again, back to full circle..here we are 30 years later. By any standard of objectivity, the Seed was a dismall failure, the legacy programs continue to harm people, and the utopian dream of a seed "army" failed miserably just like all cults eventually do, and the end, as usual, did not justify the means.
It rarely does.
