Author Topic: I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m  (Read 33910 times)

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Offline John Underwood

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« on: September 21, 2005, 11:45:00 AM »
First of all, I do apologize for my (degrading to you and me) rant following the responses to my post regarding my old druggies friends, that was uncalled for, base - a more civilized response from me would have been appropriate.
Regarding the oft requested apologies for my part in The Seed, that would be the equivalent (to me) of supporting a lie, feeding a delusion. I further believe that if you don?t understand this, it?s simply because you don?t want to. This is what I believe, ...me! Some of the posts reflect a belief that I have an expectation that you need to believe, I don?t, not the tiniest. I do not begrudge anyone whose opinion is vastly different from mine, nor do I begrudge them the right to shout it from the mountaintop(s) if they so desire.
You invited me to post at this site to answer questions that would clear up certain ambiguities. I have. And yes, in my doing more than that, (expressing personal opinions, feelings), the attention has become focused on me, not the answers you sought. If I continue to post at this site I have no intention of not expressing my thoughts and opinions, but I will try to minimize so as to not misdirect from what you specifically ask.
Let?s begin with my answering one I already answered. NO, I never struck fuelaw (whoever that is) or anyone else at The Seed, never happened, an absolutely bold face lie! Now let me ask you a question. No one here, not even the most adamant Seed haters, remembers the staff actually hitting anyone, yet fuelaw claims he was ?beat-up? by staff,...and more than once, both in Miami and Fort Lauderdale. Does this not give you cause to think about, question the validity of his claims? If not, sobeit, no more on comments from me on this subject.
Yes, I did, (as did other staff), turn down parents who attempted to place their kids in The Seed if I thought they, (and this is the term I used to parents), were not candidates for the program. The contagion that effected many parents during those years resulted in many kids showing up that did not need the program. In fact, the most prominent, outspoken member of this web site was one of those turned down, her parents being told she did not need the program.
If there was any doubt about an intake, even if substantial drug use was admitted, they were required to first see a psychiatrist for evaluation. In Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Ft. Pierce it was Dr. Lester Keiser. In Cleveland it was Dr. David Logan. I do not remember the name of the doctor in St. Pete, though I?m sure if you want it, his name could be easily obtained. This was done strictly to determine if there was reason to suspect there may be other problems, not drug related.
There was one other post I read that I would like to respond to since I do have first hand knowledge regarding the validity of the accusation. Neither Judge Al Sepe or Judge Ellen Morphonios, (both sent many to The Seed), ever placed anyone in The Seed at the bequest of parents. Never. These are both people I knew well, considered friends, and neither took their judicial responsibility that lightly. Parents were never involved until after the fact and in many cases there was no parental involvement before or after. This was adult felony court at, (what was then called), The Criminal Court of Record at the Dade County Justice Building. These persons were all charged with felonies, - certain ones, at arraignment were interviewed, and if deemed candidates for rehabilitation, were give the choice of entering The Seed or continuing their entitled due process, not going to jail. I know, I was the one that sat in the court at the public defender?s table (in Sepe?s court) as they went through the court docket every morning. (A little side note here: Roy Black was one of the two public defenders permanently assigned to Sepe?s court during this period, I still get a kick out of how famous he has become).
Any other questions you have, ask, if I know, I?ll answer, but probably not in a timely manner.
Any other ill-founded, debasing, slanderous, profane, dishonest remarks, ...well, as you have so accurately and consistently pointed out, ... I have no control...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline cleveland

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »
John, I appreciate your posting here. Please know in advance that I will not necessarily agree with you, but I have no reason to doubt your sincerity. If others have a different response, so be it.

No one ever struck me at the Seed, but I was 'shoved' from behind in the group. I was rarely yelled at, and it was usually indirectly during a Rap. Someone always had their arm around me when I was a newcomer, I was never alone, and had to leave the bathroom door open a crack when I used it. I was strip searched, including full body cavity search, which was humiliating. So that was the extent of actual 'physical' intrusions.

When I was admitted in Cleveland I met with Dr. Logan, who I believe was affiliated with Case. This meant a lot to me as I had experienced some anxietyh and depression and was afraid that I was 'mentally ill.' I later wrote Dr. Logan a letter, with very personal items that I was unwilling to share with him face to face (nothing terrible, just things that I found embarrasing and hard to understand). In the letter, which I copied to the Seed, I requested that he review whether I would be better served by therapy or the Seed. He didn't reply, and when I entered the Seed (post intake) I asked staff about the letter and they said they had 'no idea' what I was talking about. I was sort of shocked; but that was after the strip search and being told I was completely 'full of shit'. I had come in voluntarily because I thought this was some type of group therapy. I wanted to leave immediately but was told I had signed myself in for three irrevocable days. So I sat tight and after three days on the front row, I determined that although I was very uncomfortable with the 'program' that I had to admit I was unhappy and that I should 'give their way a try.' I now see this as manipulation (sorry John) and completely in keeping with step-type thinking.

There you go...my take on this time in my life.

Walter
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline GregFL

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2005, 01:33:00 PM »
Thank you john for so directly responding and for the apology. I sincerely appreciate it.

As for my suggestion you apologize for those you may have harmed during your tenure at the seed, that was merely a suggestion on my part and I have no direct need for it personally..

Ahh, violence at the seed.  I will tell you now why I believe Fuelaw was roughed up,and I will also be the first to throw it down that I have no first hand knowledge of it nor do I know the extent, if any, of your participation.


But violence at the seed. The topic first... I don't like it. In my opinion it negates the real problems with the treatment model. You can do away with all the violence, the temper tantrums, the threats and so forth and the basic treatment model is still wrong and harmfull.


But violence at the seed, whether overt or suggested, was a daily threat to us youngsters. Let me pontificate a little here.

First, the threat at intake was of a violent nature. If you do not sign yourself in, you are going to be declared incorrigible and go to JDC, and do you know what happens to kids at JDC?  This was the threat I received, an overt threat that I either sign myself in or face possible anal rape.  I was to weak and scared at 14 to even face the possibility of that, even tho I did put up a couragious fight and call the staff member who strip searched me a faggot while looking him in the eye and after exposing my organ I asked him "are you happy now". A juvenile statement and insensitive to homosexuals but one born of defiance.

Second, the threat once place on the first row. If you don't comply, we will have you court ordered and you will stay in captivity for longer, and if you still don't comply you will be placed in Jail/juvy.  Again, the overt sexual connotation/threat.  

Next, the Guards at the door, and the propensity for these guards to throw people to the concrete in an extremely one sided free for all action.  Just witnessing this once in my first three days was enough for me, I wasn't going to physically challenge those older kids with testosterone in their muscles, something my strong but pre-pubscent body was lacking.  The threat of physicall violence was always there.

Next, The constant MEAN spirited poking and prodding from behind for soley letting your back touch the chair or from nodding off from lack of sleep, exercise and from emotional duress. This was orwellian and cruel in the extreme, more on the line of torture than actual violence, but it was a constant reminder of what could and would happen if you didn't comply.

still again, the come down on you raps often reached threatening and frightening proportions, bordering on direct physical threats. I specifically remember people screaming things like "on the streets I would have raped you" to girls and " in prison you would be someone's girlfriend". With the threat of prison held over all our heads, the implied violence was constant.

Going further, the infamous parental beatings at the St Pete Seed. Not only did they occur, and people have repeatedly logged on this site with independent memories of it along with accounts in the press and testimony from parents, But even worse, after they occured they were used as THREATS against the rest of us. "don't think we can't get your parents in here" type of stuff.

Going further John, You struck a rather imposing physical presence to us youngsters, and you often became a frothing maniac, bordering on very scary, when screaming and belittling us in front of other people. Think back John. I have and I can see your face and demeaner as I type this.

Still again people would break pieces of the chair off and cut themselves with it and while bleeding get stood up and yelled at. This is extremely violent imagery to a captive person, especially a young one.

Lastly, I participated in violent actions against other seedlings IN FRONT OF SENIOR STAFF. Its true, and not only did I do it, so did another senior staff member. We took a 14 year old kid who broke free and ran for it in the parking lot, and tackled him ONTO THE PAVEMENT, held him down and threatened him physically into submission. He came up bloody, he was violently grabbed by the senior staff member, dragged in front of I believe Suzy  who seethed.."get him back in group" or something to that effect.

lastly, "boys" rap to me felt like violence. Here I was, devoid of any sexual experience, being shoved into a group of boys and asked to "relate" my sexual experiences or lack therof. It was a frightening experience that had me physically trembling before every "boys" rap.

Other people have other stories, but that is violence at the seed from GregFl's perspective. It not only existed in actuality, but the constant threat of being hurt during an escape, being locked up and raped, having your self beat up by a proxy of staff (being your own parent) being stuck in the back, or worse, if non-compliant being denied the basic right to take a piss or go number 2 until it appeared you were going to go in your pants. BTW, was there specific junior staff instruction on this bit of behavior modification? Because many many people have this as one of their number one complaints. Being reduced to such a helpless captive that even urinating or moving your bowels was a privelige withheld to those not in compliance and then to have these actions watched and logged into a book? Care to clear up the reasoning for that? I think I know John that it was really just a terror technique. we are being honest here, right?  I even remember the term, "you can just sit in your shit". this is violent, degrading, humiliating, and orwelian treatment of youngsters.

Now, back to Fuelaw. When this occured he was 13. He was defiant, he was small, and what may have seemed like a small jerking of the arm or slam against a wall could have seemed like a giant ass beating to him. I am just speculating. I really don't know the story in detail and maybe he would like to post it in totality for rebuttal. I cannot honestly comment on what occured but I will honestly say it does not surprise me.  I was there in 1973 and felt the violence charged atmosphere.


Bringing us full circle to 2005.  I am very sincere when I tell you I forgive you and all involved. You may not feel like you need or want my forgiveness, but I give it to you unconditionally. You may feel the end justified the means and that "saving lives" was more important than the other result, the result you see here on this forum where many many people have logged on and shared the torment of their involvement with The Seed.  It is real John,it is not sour grapes or a bunch of failures trying to justify their failure. Most of us are well adjusted adults that frankly don't need to keep bringing this stuff up everyday. I do this for a different reason. I don't need the therapy..I don't need the constant reminder, and I don't get angry, upset, emotional or otherwise stuck back there when I discuss it. Others need to go thru this and come out the otherside. This forum is in honor of those people and in honor of our shared experiences.

But again, back to full circle..here we are 30 years later. By any standard of objectivity, the Seed was a dismall failure, the legacy programs continue to harm people, and  the utopian dream of a seed "army" failed miserably just like all cults eventually do, and the end, as usual, did not justify the means.

It rarely does.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2005, 01:38:00 PM »
BTW, I cannot speak for those Judges, but I have specific knowledge of a judge that lied for the seed. He was a judge in pinellas county.

His kid was in the program and he was an adamant seed supporter, providing fresh meat regularly to the seed. He overturned a Broward court order releasing a kid from the seed, claiming the kid admitted in open court to needing the seed and being a drug addict.

The problem? The kid was never in the judges court. The entire thing was fabricated.

What level of commitment to the cause does it take a judge to violate his oath of office? To get judges to commit kids for shoplifting to a lock down drug rehab? To sentence kids for "attitude" to the seed?

BTW, I know about the above case intimately. It was my mother that obtained the release order, and my father  and a local attorney, who also happened to have his kid in the seed,  whom finagled the Seed affiliated Judge to lie under oath.

Is any of this normal?
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Offline rjfro22

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2005, 02:41:00 PM »
John U.,
            I am grateful for this forum, For years I would think about the seed and wonderd how people were doing.  It is so great to have my memories refreshed by so many people.  The Seed  was not  an easy place but it helped wake me up, there was plenty of tough love, sometimes it could have been a little more gentle,
but the Seed help me pull my life together, and I remember you as being a really great person and I want to thank you and most of the staff that worked so hard to help many of us that really needed it.  I hope things are going well for you in life.  Thanks again for
being a person that helped make a difference in this world, you helped save lives.
Highest Regard,
Richard F.[ This Message was edited by: rjfro22 on 2005-09-21 11:42 ]
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Offline JaLong

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2005, 10:47:00 PM »
John,
You already know how I feel about the seed. Yes, it was very hard for the 10 months I was in there, yet "I" feel it saved my life. I too have lost 18 old friends to overdoses, murder, suicides, and AIDS, but I am still living my life, and it is great. Yes, I had to go to therapy afterwards to deal with my anxiety and PTSD which I had before I went in, just amplified more. Fear triggered my PTSD. I was in fear the whole ten months. One thing I must disagree with is the court orders. My dad pulled one out of his pocket on the way to the seed, and yes John it was from Pinellas Circut Court. I had never been arrested, nor ever saw a judge. Mrs Peterman though knew all about me during intake. She went through my litany of a lot of what I had done, and threatend to call the police if I didn't sign the form. After tearing up two, and then chewing one up she picked up the phone and said she was calling St Pete police right then. I freaked and signed the paper. I know she knew things about me because my best friend and her brother(who raped me at 14yrs old) were staff there. Imagine being 17 and seeing the "boy" who raped me. The strip search made me feel I was being raped all over again. Total fear. He did apologize when I was in the clinic with Arthur, yet that made it worse for me. This was my experience. I don't know who the judge was, and my parents only remember going to the court house to pick it up. They do remember telling the judge, along with another adult what I was into. I also can tell you my old boyfriend came in to get me "out". During exercise we would be looking at each other, and were told to stop it. Most of my friends were across the street yelling my name and I was made to go inside and stay there for 2 wks. He ended up throwing a chair across the room, bolted for the door, and was tackled to the ground by 3 guards. Then it was "comedown time". Can't remember the male staff, but he asked if anyone knew him. All the girls around me started pointing their fingers at my head and I was told to come up to the front and "tell him where he was at". Oh yeah I yelled at him, yet at the same time I whispered I don't mean anything I am saying. Then he split that night.  I know I don't need to tell you how I feel about you. You already now that. :smile: Thank you for writing again. I appreciate your input. Take care,
Julie
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Offline JaLong

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2005, 10:53:00 PM »
I was just thinking, and I don't ever remember seeing or talking to a doctor at the St Pete seed in 1973. I remember quite a lot about those times.
C-Ya
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Offline FueLaw

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2005, 12:07:00 AM »
Underwood, you will be glad to know that your friend Judge Sepe was indicted in the operation "court broom" scandal in Miami-Dade county. He played sick for about a decade but a federal judge finally sent him away for a while. His federal prison number was 37427-004.

Your other friend Judge Marphonios was also caught up in the same scandal and was forced off the bench. I guess birds of a feather do flock together. Very coincidental that you mention crooked disgraced judges as your friends.

Yes you did strike me and physically abuse me. What about the event at the open meeting prior to X-mass , do you remember it? What the hell was that all about? Having said that I dont really care about it. It wasn't the first time I got the shit knocked out of me. I care about the mental abuse and torture of thousands of kids. How do answer for that?

How about the other lies? What about the 90% crap? How many staffers failed or got booted? How come the seed did not rise up and save the world? What happend Johnnyboy? Why did you quit? Why did you kiss Barkers ass for 6 years? How come nothing that guys like you & Barker predicted would happend ever came to pass?

The answer is because you were full of shit then and your still full of shit 30 years later. How pathetic can you be?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2005, 01:40:00 AM »
Jalong, you mean to say one of the St Pete staffers had raped you prior to coming into the seed?

If I interpreted that correctly, that must have been terrifying to sit there under the captivity of one of your rapists.

Please tell me I have read that wrong...
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2005, 01:45:00 AM »
Quote
Neither Judge Al Sepe or Judge Ellen Morphonios, (both sent many to The Seed), ever placed anyone in The Seed at the bequest of parents. Never. These are both people I knew well, considered friends, and neither took their judicial responsibility that lightly.


No, they didn't. They were very serious about their, ahem...judicial responsiblitites.


http://www.ca11.uscourts.gov/opinions/o ... t%20broom'

But hey, they were devoted the the Seed "cause" right? What difference does it make if we have corrupt judges or rapist staff members as long as they "get it", eh?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2005, 02:03:00 AM »
St Pete had a doctor, but not coincidentially he had a kid in the program, he was one of the rabid parents and he rubber stamped every questionable case. My father asked me to go see him after the seed and my dad and I had a major falling out over it. He set the appointment and I didn't go.
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Offline OverLordd

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2005, 09:49:00 AM »
Its very intresting to look at this and see what is being said. This John Underwood character defends the program, yet each person keeps coming up with experiance after experiance, and he cannot defend against it. Flordia during the 70's must of been a place full of coruption and fear. this is what I am lead to believe by what is being said. Even the posts by Underwood makes me beieve this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
our walking down a hallway, you turn left, you turn right. BRICK WALL!

GAH!!!!

Yeah, hes a survivor.

Offline JaLong

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2005, 10:06:00 AM »
Hey Greg, No you read that correctly. I was 14 yrs old and my best friend Linda who was staff in July of 73 has a brother Bruce who was also staff. He and 4 other guys gang raped me at their house. They were not staff there for long- too long for me. We did get together about 4 yrs ago, and I told him he F'd up my life. He started crying, as I was, and apologized. Then I could forgive him and put it away. It was a very healing experience for the both of us. But in the seed, having to see him every day was horrible. Especially when he came up to the clinic door and said,"I'm sorry". Not heartfelt at that. Thanks for asking. Ya know how they say "what goes around, comes around"? Bruce is the only one alive out of the five. I didn't wish them death. It was their choices to continue to do some pretty hard dope. God bless them.
Julie
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline GregFL

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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2005, 10:09:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-09-22 07:06:00, JaLong wrote:

"Hey Greg, No you read that correctly. I was 14 yrs old and my best friend Linda who was staff in July of 73 has a brother Bruce who was also staff. He and 4 other guys gang raped me at their house. They were not staff there for long- too long for me. We did get together about 4 yrs ago, and I told him he F'd up my life. He started crying, as I was, and apologized. Then I could forgive him and put it away. It was a very healing experience for the both of us. But in the seed, having to see him every day was horrible. Especially when he came up to the clinic door and said,"I'm sorry". Not heartfelt at that. Thanks for asking. Ya know how they say "what goes around, comes around"? Bruce is the only one alive out of the five. I didn't wish them death. It was their choices to continue to do some pretty hard dope. God bless them.

Julie"


Bruce!  This is the guy that did my intake strip search, and your right, he just disapeared one day.  About 17...skinny, preppy looking.

Yes Jalong I remember him. That name kept coming in my brain but no one else remembered him.

I am so sorry you went thru that on all levels and were continually abused by having to face down this guy while under restraint and captivity.

If this doesn't shine a spotlight on a very big flaw in the "kids helping kids" treatment model, I doubt anything will get thru.

Here we have criminals , rapists and drug addicts, several months later, in charge of the captivity of young children.  Also, these same children  were sent home to disfunctinal families where they were locked up, and often threatened and abused there.

Talk about a violence charged atmosphere, Jalong, no wonder you developed PTSD.  Unreal story.
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Offline Ft. Lauderdale

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I was going to write Dear Greg, but even titles seem it be m
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2005, 10:28:00 AM »
Yes he can and yes he did. Read it again.  He said he never hit fufu or fuelaw or what ever his name is.  
It's amazing to me, how long an ego bruise can last.  I guess its hard to heal.
I was involved with the seed for a very long time.
I never saw any physical abuse.  (anything is possible I must admit, but I was in the thick of it for a long time and NEVER saw it.) I can hear echoes of people saying violence of any kind will not be tollerated.  I remember someone being asked to leave because they got into someones face.  Yes I must admit a rap session or two may have gotten a little harsh and sometimes a little too vulgar for my taste (I can't tell you how long ago that was maybe 25 or 30 yrs ago.) and that was stopped and never happened again.
Greg I must admit, I kinda like you.  You are clever some what witty and likeable and I can even tell you have a heart (most of the time) :grin:
My god I don't get your vendetta.  
Antigen is another story.  
I loved the Seed.  I have alot of fond memories.
I always will.  If I had anything to do with you I gave it my all and I cared.  I gave a shit as to what happened to you.  No I'm not a seed slave or moonie type.  I'm pretty independent and always have been.  I also was never a favorite son. I guess I did "get it" as far as I'm concerned. :grin:

"This message was in response to Overlord"
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