Carlbrook

[Nihilanthic]

BTW -

Speaking as someone who used to have very severe social problems (becuase OF school and at least one of my parents...) I can say most certainly that a wilderness place and being forced to walk cheek to jowl with people of the full spectrum of adolescense, manipulated (as easily as I would have been in my younger years.. jeeze :scared: ) humiliated and terrified, would have fucked me up PRETTY damn good.

I also woulda bought into all this nonsense hook line and sinker too, for that matter  

You dont fix someone without social skills by doing this to them! You dont humiliate and fuck up and hurt and beat down, you build up, and I needed a fuck of a lot of the building up. Know how I did that? I got in a car and drove myself to friends I made and hung out with people who I got along with and who had a mutual sense of respect and understanding with. Oddly, it was more with people over the age of 30 than my own age at the time (late teens) but... well, it definitely worked.

This one size fits all QUACKERY really, really really sucks and burns my ass, especially knowing what this kind of 'treatment' would have done to my former self, and how well I would have fit into the sights of a program looking to get a new cash cow. Thankfully if that actually happened my mom would have jumped in before too long, and for that matter my father was a tightwad with money. Phew!

[Nihilanthic]

In the end, parents must ask themselves what they would do if these private lock-down facilities didn't exist. Hmmm??? Anybody have an answer?

Pay some street thugs to rough up their kid for a while so they fearfully come home in appreciation for what they have?

Go back in time 150 years, send my kid out west to spend some time with the native indians and have him partake in a coming of age ceremony where he is left out in the wilderness for a few days?

Put 100 doses of LSD in my kid's breakfast cereal, then tie them down and force them to watch barney for weeks on end until they are a huggable, loveable, child like creature once again?

The kid would move out and grow up!

Now we have childhood that extends into the early 30's so we gotta keep them under our thumb and made back into an obedient child and fixed instead of allowed to get out, spread their wings, and poop on someones head on their way out.

[psy]

Niles-   You aren't going to like this, but my son deserved to lose all those things at that particular time.  He agrees with that.  He lost the right to have them.  That's what a "consequence" is all about.  Wilderness was a consequence as well as a therapeutic opportunity.

This was 3 1/2 years ago.  I will write tomorrow what I can remember about the day to day structure of the program.  I know the head therapist was in the field with the group two days a week.  The support (field) staff was good-  no, they did not have advanced degrees,

1 red flag

but my son thought most of them were pretty good.  They had pretty basic food, but it was varied.  The groups were single sex.  They hiked pretty far each day but had some days off from hiking.  They learned a lot about the flora and fauna of the region and the stars etc.  They had phases they had to work through.  They were required to write a letter home every week which got faxed to us.  They had to read their impact letters that we (parents) wrote out loud to the group.

That concerns me greatly. 2 red flags.

These were very telling because the story thekid had presented to the group was quite a bit different than what the parents revealed in the letter.

Could that be at least partially because of a difference of opinion/perspective?

Staff was in constant touch with the head therapist throughout the week for updates and changes to the kid's program and assignments.  They did several solos.

What were the safety precautions on the solos?

I think my son did a 2 or 3 day solo during his second stint.  He liked it.  He read a lot and wrote a lot.  They could have cameras and he took pictures.  He was in a group with some pretty bad kids (some with real social problems)

My one concern on their website was the range of problems they claim to treat...  Some such as ADHD, are not problems that can be fixed at all.
3 red flags.

because of the thing with the escorts and some of them really tested his tolerance level.  Working with one of them actually became one of his assignments.

assignments?  curious.  the escorts worked at the program?  were they there to provide security?

We didn't get a civil letter for about a month or 6 weeks.

4 red flags.

We spent a couple hours a week on the phone with the therapists.  We could call the field office for info at any time.  They were good with necessary meds (asthma, Advil etc).   A PhD psychologist administered a battery of clinical tests out in the field and wrote a report which was extremely comprehensive.

I don't expect you to answer but i assume it was mainly negative...  slanted towards "your kid needs to be in program... not at home"...  carlbrook referrs to this place it seems... and they refer to carlbrook on a regular basis...  coincidence?

Licenced therapists reduce the risk (they are scared of losing their licences) but does not eliminate it entirely.

During the last week we had a couple of phone conversations with our son on the satellite phone.

was he allowed to phone before the last couple weeks?  if not it's a big red flag.

He was not told when he was leaving, but he had to agree to the next placement before he could leave.

BIG red flag.  6 now.

We went for his transition and spent the night in the field with him and the other kids/parents who were leaving.  We did some therapy sessions both in group and alone with our son and the therapist and our son cooked us dinner at our campsite.  
That's all for now.

cool.  thanks for answering the questions.

[Anonymous]

Charlie- you mentioned not wanting to go into what specifically your son had done to go to Wilderness tbs etc. i think that this is commendable. I also have heard a lot obout the idea of impact letters sent from parents.
f a kid has misbehaved badly, i see no problem with the parents making them aware of the effect this behaviour had on the family, but to me the idea of making it publc and forcing kids to share it with the rest of the group seems pretty abhorrent. Surely this is between the parent and the kid not the rest of the world. Public shaming is not really a natural consequence for any adult. if you screw up at work for instance it is rare that the boss will publically yell at you.

You also mentioned that the whole point of wilderness was to take away priveliges that the kid had before so that they realise how good they had it. The idea of natural consequences is again a theme of many Wilderness places that I have come across. But to my mind the natural consequence of misbehaving for your son was to be kicked out of a boarding school that he liked. What made you go with Wilderness therapy over a stint in the Public School system? What was it about that option that you were unable to pursue?
Oz Girl

[psy]

Punishment STILL is not therapy, Karen. Talk to ANY psychologist and they would tell you an austere environment and/or punishment or any programmie nonsense is not what you do to help fix a child who has actual problems.

If they have problems, you dont punish, you help, you treat, you find out what's wrong. Yet somehow we seem to have simultaneously punitive.. nonsense thats ineffective and more about revenge than anything else intertwined with quackery!

It is good to know at least to your face he acts like he deserved it... he definitely learned well from carlbrook in that regard at the least.

That's why i asked when he first said he "admitted" that.  Coerced "admissions" are quite common in program.  It takes away any doubt in the parent's mind about the decision to send/keep the kid in program. (that's the point)

@Charley
Btw.  When did he first admit that?

But yeah, forced reading of "impact"  :rofl: (where do you people come up with this nonsense? Why not just call it 'intended to cause a breakdown or psychological effect' letter...) before group? Forced writing of a letter that is FAXED and thus seen by staff?

I aggree.  monitored communication at any time in the program would be the biggest warning sign to me.

@Charley,
Did they monitor phone calls, or allow them at all, earlier in the program?

Thats not therapeutic, not helpful in any way, and its nonsense, period.

i aggree

Also, do you not see the problem with not letting someone know when they can get out?

@charley

What i think niles is getting at is that wilderness programs often tell kids "comply or you'll be here forever... hahaahah" (though in not such a cliché manner) You might think us as in the same realm as compiracy theorists, but these things have happened... a lot.

And why would you have to agree on the next placement before you can go anywhere? How is that therapetuic?

Carlbrook <---> Second Nature
symbiotic relationship?

No offence to Psy, but this seems just like every other wilderness camp... using isolation and austerity (an extreme, isolated environment) and literally dispensing survival to these people, forcing them to do things, psycho-nonsense like IMPACT LETTERS and not knowing whats going on.

I never said it was legit.  I said based on it's website it seemed to be.  I hadn't talked to Karen much about the details.  Now that she has explaind a bit about it... my opinion is very different.  Too many warning signs.  I can easily understand, however why parents do not recognize the significance of some of these things.  You ne.ed to explain it on the simplest manner so the parents don't have to have an in depth knowledge of the TTI.

I'm gonna side with TSW on this one. Its nonsense. I see no actual therapy and a lot of the same old bullshit with a brand new wrapper.

Oh, and what sort of punishments or coersion did they use to people who didn't do what they were told, Karen?

Tsw is probably correct knowing what Karen has now told us.  I'm 70/30 now in my judgement of Second Nature...  (leaning towards "it's probably not such a nice place")

[Anonymous]

The whole theory its based on is WHACK. I can make a ground stone therapy facility that is nice. At this place we grind up sea stones, and then when you eat the stone paste, it cures all sorts of internal cancers. Does it really matter how nice the place is? My cure is bunk.

(but at least it gives them a nice place to die and the families dont have to deal with them)

[Nihilanthic]

I'm still in a bit of a knot here (mentally) about why shed openly talk about "IMPACT LETTERS"  :rofl: after lurking fornits enough to learn thats not a good thing in any way whatsoever, and try to say that "wilderness was good for him".

I'll make a good wilderness experience! Big fuckin' pickup truck, an aresenal of weapons, some frozen or otherwise preserved foods we cant make ourselves (sausage, beer, mmm) a satellite and a TV, inflatable air mattresses, tent, GRILLE, and go kill us some deer and go fishing and just have a blast shooting stuff, cutting up, doing donuts in a clearing and scaring off all the bunnies we didn't run over and do Emer Fudd impressions. And your "takehome" is an orange hat, some antlers and some pretty nice game meat!

Where can I start up that lil program?

[Nihilanthic]

I said beer, numnutz.

You gonna bring them boys with you to help wif our scatterguns?

[Deborah]

There is info on Second Nature here, but it's difficult to find due to the inadequate search function. "Second" and/or "Nature" will return overwhelming results. Second Nature is frequently referred to as SNW, 2N or 2NWP, and the search function won't find any of those.

Here's a couple. If you want to know what goes on in 2N on a day-to-day basis, you need to ask the kids or staff. Parents know what they are told by the program or what their kid feels safe enough to divulge.

These two survivors could give you insight.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ure#221995

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=40&Sort=

That they can call it 'therapy' is bad enough, but Education loans for Wilderness? and Ammoritized loans?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ure#228939

On the Native American nostalgia issue:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ure#200837

Utah has the best regs for Wilderness, but that doesn't insure programs follow them. On national TV during the Brat Camp series, I noticed several blatant violations of regs. Viewers wouldn't even notice unless they were familiar with Oregon regs.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ush#118710
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p= ... ush#118773

Two excerpts from the History of Wilderness I'm working on:
Outward Bound 60s
Outward Bound was brought to the United States in the 1960's by German educator Kurt Hahn, who stressed overcoming self-perceived limitations
71- One of the most extensively developed off-shoots of Outward Bound is Project Adventure (PA). Based in Covington, Georgia
Jerry Pieh who helped his father start the Minnesota Outward Bound School... Pieh wrote a proposal to the federal Office of Education to bring the ideology of Outward Bound to a traditional school setting. The project was funded in 1971 and was named Project Adventure
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:sFs ... clnk&cd=25

Larry Dean Olsen and Doug Nelson- Department of Youth Leadership at Brigham Young University, that came into existence in the late 1960's (Program used at AAA and Anasazi)
80s Olsen sought out third party payers, insurance. recognition by insurance companies and state agencies has been a key component to increasing the legitimacy and accessibility of OBH programs
accreditation by agencies such as The Council on Accreditation (COA) and The Joint Council on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) increases credibility of OBH programs and, consequently, increases the likelihood that insurance companies will reimburse.

[psy]

Is there anything you don't know deb?  :lol:
Do you work as a researcher or something?
You should once programs are done for.

[Charly]

This is a Carlbrook thread, not a Second Nature thread.  
I was posting because I was asked for some information.  I tried to give it and my purpose is not to argue and defend.  I simply am not going to do that here.  I will be glad to answer PMs if you want more detail about my son's situation or the program.  It is impossible to convey the full nature of the experience to someone who has not been to this particular program or met these therapists (this re: Second Nature).  I can assure you that my son is not holding anything back and even at one point asked me if I would lend money to the single mother of one of his Dallas friends so that the boy could go to 2N.  

1.  There is no affiliation between Carbrook, 2N and any escort service.  2N sends a few kids to Carlbrook (C-brook is very selective about who they accept and most kids don't fit the profile) but more to other programs or RTCs.  Carlbrook does send some kids BACK to 2N, but usually Georgia or some of the other wilderness programs in the SE closer to C-brook.  The escorts did not work at 2N.

2.  2N can work with a variety of issues because there are a number of different groups and therapists.  The group you are in is not a random assignment.

3. The test report on my son drew no conclusion about programs and did not mention any. It was a very professional assessment and we have been told by several unrelated medical and mental health professionals that it is one of the most comprehensive, well-written reports they have ever seen.

4.  I did not say the whole point of wilderness was to take away privileges and make the kid appreciate what he had at home.  That is incorrect.  The strength of wilderness is that the distractions of the home environment (music, friends, drugs etc., family, cars) are removed.  It is just the kids, nature and the therapists.  My son came away from there wanting to do a long solo camping trip.  They do have to earn privileges (eating utensils etc) by fulfilling requirements. I am not going to go into public detail about my son working with the difficult boy, but it was effective for both kids.



5. Impact letters-  I guess you had to be there.  It worked.  The kids did not feel coerced.  They weren't reading these in church or at school.  They were reading them to a group of peers with whom they were establishing a bond.  The parents were helped with the letters- they were not filled with accusations and blame.   They were factual and effective.  The kids replies to parents were not censored (I assure you of that- our first letter from son read, "Do not believe anything the therapist Devan tells you. They just want to keep kids here long so they can make money.")  

6. Solos- lots of safety precautions- staff checked on the kids and brought them food.  They were not sent out on solo until they were willing and ready.  It was something the kids WANTED to do.

7.  2N was not at all based on humiliation or breaking down.  It is based on building up self esteem.

[Anne Bonney]

Charly, I appreciate what you wrote to a bunch of us, honestly I do but I'm sorry.  I just can't take any of this seriously.  Why doesn't he come on here and speak for hiimself?  I mean, these are filtered through you and you can't help but put your own slant on it a little bit.  I know that whenever I talk about my kids and their experiences that some of my take on it comes through.  Is he not willing to disuss these things himself?

Psy and others.....this is one of the best threads in a long time.  You guys have nailed programs to the proverbial "T".

 :nworthy:

[Charly]

psy-  After about 6 weeks at wilderness (and in response to a very effective letter I wrote at the request of the therapist) our son agreed that he had screwed things up at home/school.  We were told he was one of the most resistant kids they had ever seen at 2N.
He felt he had figured out a lot of things at 2N (wrote a ton of journals) and was ready to come home.  He seemed to think his old boarding school would take him back, but they refused.  

As far as coercion and being tough on the kids- some of that is necessary.  This isn't golf camp.  I don't know what some of the rest of you did before you got sent away, but the pain and tears our son caused his family and others was pretty bad.  It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out he needed to go to wilderness. He figured it out pretty fast, as did his friends back home.  Why did it take 6 weeks?  This was an angry, depressed kid who had spent years holding onto anger towards his family and other authority figures. It wasn't going to change in a week.  

As I said, 3 1/2 years later (now) our son is very objective about the whole thing.  He admits he needed wilderness- thinks almost any kid would benefit from 2N.  Thinks Carlbrook is a very mixed bag and wasn't where he should have been, but he is glad for the friends he made and for the path it let him take to get where he is now.  I doubt he will ever post on Fornits- he is way past caring about all this and is busy with his life.  I can assure you that he does not censor his remarks about these programs or anything else for my benefit.  

If anyone has read James Frey's book, A  Million Little Pieces (the parts that are actually true) you will remember his description of the "Fury" (he personified it) that he felt towards his parents.  I could really relate to this, because it is how our son felt towards us and probably still feels sometimes.  Frey didn't know why he felt this way and neither did our son.

[Anonymous]

I can't believe after everything that's been said about Charley's son on this site that you think he would willingly engage in a discussion here.  It's strange that the alleged humiliation to kids that is so concerning to some of you on Fornits is quite similar to what when on here for months regarding Charley and her family.  Now you want the son to risk all of that being discussed again.  I can't blame him.

[Charly]

Anne- I talked to my son about all this last week.  I am a lawyer and I am good at being objective.  I have no interest in defending programs per se-  I just want to provide input here.  I have never received any money (in fact, I think Carlbrook would have paid me to NOT tell anyone my son had been there) for a referral.  
I am not putting my spin on anything.  I am holding back a little here because it is a public forum and I have been burned before.

I feel that you are doing yourselves a disservice if you really want to reach parents.  You are wrong in saying that every aspect of every program is bad and abusive.  There are good parts to some programs.  Perhaps the bad outweighs.  That is a legitimate belief. i am giving you factual information and the opinions of myself and my son.  Also, I have talked to perhaps  30 kids who have been to 2N.  No one had anything but praise for that particular program. These are kids who had different feelings about their next programs- some loved C-brook and some hated it (as well as non-Carlbrook programs).  ALL felt that they benefitted from Second Nature.

If you want to help parents and get rid of bad programs, you have to take a close look at what the good parts are and figure out how those tools can be used in a different setting.  I am trying to give you this information.  My son is an exception in many ways- I realize that.  He was not a typical teen and had some unique talents and issues.  

I am not an adversary to you.  I'm really not.  It is very frustrating for me to post here, and I am wondering why I am doing it.  I much prefer the one on one dialogue which I have had with psy and others.  I feel that there is less room for misinterpretation that way.

Anne, if you want to use what I am saying to prove the point that every aspect of wilderness and TBS is bad, go for it.  I don't think that is your best "play" though.  I am willing to be a resource and answer questions fairly and accurately.  I have NO need to look at anything through a filter.  My son is 20 years old and in college.  I don't have a horse in the race.