Fornits

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Here Whooter is posing as an Aspen Ranch “graduate” and telling people not to tell him he’s lying.  Well, I guess that makes it believable then?  Fail, Whooter.  Fail.

Quote from: "Whooter"

I just recently left Aspen Ranch (during the July parent week), graduating as a Rider. I was there for over 16 months! The substance abuse counselor was my primary therapist! I had a lot of problems going there, personal as well as a fucked up family. I've now ben home for 3 months and am doing great. I haven't relapsed or really even considered it.

Aspen was a great place! We didn't get pizza from the local place once a week, but we did get it on parent week and for special occasions. The food wasn't great but it was certainly bearable (and I'm picky!). The staff was AWESOME (most anyways), they were very caring and devoted. There have been MANY changes in staff and rules in the past 6 months there as well, so check it out! Sure I had my rough times, everyone does! I would defenitely recommend it if you're kids having a rough time, but be sure to check it out before to see if you think your kid would be a good fit.

And to whoever posted about seeing kids doing pull-ups with a man with a radio....he was the personal trainer! I was in Personal Training for over a year there and it helped a lot! I've never heard a complaint about PT, kids can sign up for an extra fee through a past navy seal who really pushes you hard! And there's a LONG waiting list.

Thanks, and please no one tell me I'm lying....when I left I was 2nd in seniority out of everyone there at the time! And to those parents who have kids there now...I wouldn't doubt if I knew them!

This is what Whooter does here.  Everything he posts is a lie in one way or another.  Danny is his puppet, so don't look far Danny to question what Whooter says, even though he clearly "fabricated" it.  Danny only goes after program kids for "fabricating," not the adults that lock kids up in abusive Aspen facilities.  Danny thinks it's OK to lie about your "sources" of information too.  He claims to have lots of "sources" too, but they're all made up as well.  Welcome to Fornits!

Nobody here assigns any credibility to either of these jackasses.  Don't bother with them because we all already know they're not capable of being honest.  Danny dragged a kid behind his car when he was a staff member because she was "fat and ugly" and Danny thought she needed his form of "treatment" for being "fat and ugly."  That's the kind of psycho crazies that spend their days here!

Thank you, Jill, for this thoughtful reply.  It is a shame that John Reuben can derail all meaningful dialogue on Fornits without repercussions.  

I believe it was Botched Programming that stated it earlier: Fornits itself has become a shill piece for the industry.  Industry types like Whooter (a.k.a. John Reuben) can simply derail every thread at will while the admins are busy banning "regulars" who actually move against abusive programs and advocate for the children who have their lives ruined by them.  The admins silence survivors on Whooter's behalf while Whooter works diligently to silence the entire website.

It's really a shame that Psy has become Whooter's marionette and Fornits has become Whooter's puppetry stage.  This place really sucks now and, as Samara accurately pointed out before, since Whooter's arrival Fornits has been basically destroyed, which, of course, has been his singular focus all along.

Sad, but true.

RIP, Fornits.

Another issue is the misconception of how one can be forced to perform oral sex. While I was fortunate to have an incredible support system, they sometimes seemed to require an explanation as to how this could occur, which just exacerbated my shame. Although others may not be able to understand, it is of course possible to be forced to perform oral sex.

There are, quite literally, thousands upon thousands of people to whom this has happened.  There are many support groups on the internet where their horrifying accounts can be read.

Unfortunately, this has happened to many women, men and children.  For someone to say that this could not have happened is stunning ignorance to say the least.  It shows a lack of understanding about sexual assault and is callous and degrading to the victims of sexual assault.

One of the most challenging aspects of my rape was being forced to perform oral sex on my rapist. Unlike vaginal rape, it can be difficult coming to terms with feeling like an active participant in the abuse. While we know we didn’t want it, we still see ourselves doing it, even though it wasn’t a consensual act. This participation brings on a level of shame that can often feel unbearable.

The challenge in healing stems from a variety of issues. First, there is general embarrassment that comes from discussing oral sex. It is often the topic of many jokes, but it is not typically a conversation for “polite” company. This made discussing it very difficult and compounded the shame I felt.

Oral rape is quite real, damaging and painful.  To say that this could not have happened to a child in an institutional setting  is beyond comprehension for most thinking people.  It obviously happened to this poor child.  It happens in our prison systems every day.

Saying the child "would have bitten the attacker if this really happened" is just another way of blaming the sexual assault victim, a phenomenon far too commonly employed by the most staggeringly ignorant among us.  The person who wrote that should educate themselves about sexual assaults before blaming the child victim for his own rape.  The lack of compassion in that statement is absolutely amazing.

As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.

It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it?  We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination.  Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement.  It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.  

I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support anything even remotely resembling that remark.  In fact, it is quite the opposite.  Available data suggest that these programs are actually quite dangerous to life and limb, not to mention a child's mind.

I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better.  At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI.  It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.


One month after that broadcast, the parents of 15-year-old Erica Harvey (pictured) of Phoenix brought her to the program to deal with her depression and drug use.

"She pleaded with us, 'Daddy, please don't make me go,'" her father Michael said in an interview with ABC News Monday. "All my instincts said, 'Leave this place now,' and I didn't trust my instincts."

Within a day, Erica was dead, after collapsing on her first wilderness trip from heat stroke and dehydration.


Erica is not the only victim. No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.

The parents of scores of children who died or were abused in therapy programs and boot camps are now coming forward, on Web sites and in Congress, to demand a crackdown.

Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., has pushed to improve oversight of the programs. Miller asked the Government Accountability Office to study allegations and cases of negligent deaths and abuse in such programs, and will chair the hearing.

The GAO's findings appalled him, he said.

"Kids being forced to eat their own vomit, to eat dirt, to not be allowed to go to the bathroom...all in the idea that somehow this is building character," he said.


The parents of 16-year-old Aaron Bacon of Arizona say abuse at a wilderness camp in Utah led to the death of their son in 1994.

Aaron "began to complain of a stomach ache, and they called him a faker and a slacker," Sally Bacon told ABC News. "He was in so much pain that he could not carry his pack...They humiliated him, called him names and decided that since he couldn't carry his pack, his food was in his pack so he would go without food."

Like the Harveys, the Bacons will also testify at Tuesday's hearing, chaired by Rep. Miller.

Aaron lost 23 pounds in his month at the camp before he died, because no one realized he had an infected, perforated ulcer, the GAO said. The condition "would have been treatable provided there had been early medical attention," the report states. A draft of the report was obtained by ABC News.

After Aaron's death, the state of Utah revoked the program's operating license, and the program closed three months later, the GAO reports.  

Bacon_071010_mn Click here to read part of Brian Ross' interview with Sally Bacon and her husband Bob.

A spokesperson for the industry's association says such deaths are tragic and agrees new regulations are needed so that good programs can continue to operate.

"We cannot afford to take these away from the parents as an option," Jan Moss, president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. "However, they must be regulated."

But the GAO investigation also found many programs lack the trained counselors or therapeutic procedures they promise.

In February 2001, the parents of 14-year-old Ryan Lewis took him to an outdoor therapy program in West Virginia after he was diagnosed with clinical depression and twice attempted suicide. The program billed itself as being especially prepared to handle cases like Ryan's, the Lewises told ABC News.

One day after threatening to kill himself, Ryan was left alone, accused of being manipulative.

"That night at approximately 7:30 in the evening, he walked off by himself to his camp site and he hung himself," Paul Lewis recounted.

Paul and his wife found out later that despite the operation's marketing, the program Ryan attended had no procedures for handling suicidal behavior by its enrollees.



Alex Cullinane, 13 years old.  Back to Basics Christian Military Academy; subcontracts with Fort Lauderdale-based Juvenile Military Training and Leadership Corp. The camp is run by certified National Guard drill sergeants.  His death is under investigation. 15-year old squad leader Brandon Scott believes he died of dehydration. He did not eat for days, according to other children, and complained of stomach pain. He died in the middle of the night after getting up to use the bathroom.

Alex Harris, 12 years old.  Hope Youth Ranch Minden.  Died of dehydration and blow to the head, allegedly when he was dropped on his head. He was forced to run, said he was thirsty, withheld water, he died of dehydration.


Anthony T. Haynes, 14 years old. America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona).  Dehydration and near drowning


Charles Collins, Jr., 15 years old. Camp Oakland/Crossroads for Youth.  Died after allegedly being forced to exercise at the facility after they were told he had an enlarged heart and should not participate in such activities.


Dillon Taylor Peak, 14 years old.  Peace River Outward Bound camp in DeSoto County.  Officials say Dillon apparently died of a severe case of encephalitis. The death remains under investigation. According to an article listed on the  ACLU website, Dillon died after becoming ill and suffering seizures. His parents claim he didn't get medical treatment soon enough, and a state investigation released in January found that, while Outward Bound staffers weren't guilty of neglect, they failed to follow strict guidelines that would have sent Peak to the hospital instead of back to his tent.


Elisa Santry, 16 years old.  Outward Bound, Utah.  Elisa was found dead 5 hours after she was separated from her group when she was hiking in 110 degree weather in the Utah wilderness. Cause of death is being investigated.


Gina Score, 14 years old. South Dakota Training School, Plankinton, SD.  Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108

Ian August, 14 years old. Skyline Journey of Nephi, Utah. Hyperthermia   Hiking


Jamie Young, 13 years old. Ramsey Canyon Hospital & Treatment Center, Arizona. Autopsy found that death was caused by heatstroke with dehydration triggered by 10 times the lethal levels of an antidepressant


Kristen Chase, 16 years old.  Challenger Foundation. Heatstroke


Mark Soares, 16 years old.  Wayside Union Academy.  Cardiac arrest from physical restraint; aides thought teen was faking unconsciousness


Nicholas Contreras, 16 years old.  Arizona Boys Ranch.  Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary. From one article: "In one case, Contreraz was forced to do pushups with his head over a bucket of feces-smeared clothing..."


Roberto Reyes, 15 years old.  Thayer Learning Center.      

Robert Reyers' cause of death was said to be from a probable spider bite and lack of medical care. Reyes died of rhabdomyolysis. This can be caused by severe exertion, trauma, and heatstroke. All likely consequences of the regime at Thayer Learning Center. Without the basis of any evidence the coroner claimed Reyes died of a probable spider bite. However, they could not even find a spider bite on his body. Additionally, spider bite is not one of the causes of rhabdomyolysis.

This is an excellent post with some really revealing information on exactly how dangerous these programs really are.  BUT, to ask if a program is better than a psyche hospital is a complete conflation of the issues.  

Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs.  Hospitals treat the most acute cases.  Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.  Aspen stated in court that they simply don't provide any treatment at all.  Programs serve no useful psychological function whatsoever.

Will "full moderation" deal with posts like this?  I saw this thread and was interested in the AARC discussion, but then here was the "Fornits troll" blatantly identifying someone whom he was arguing with as someone who sexually molests his own child.

Quote from: "ajax13"

JD, since you killed your son, you can't have contact with him at all, moderated or not.  Your mania, stupidity, ignorance and laziness seem to be in an epic battle for dominance.  Who will win JD?  Will your next post be shameful because it's rooted in stupidity, ignorance, laziness or your inability to think rationally when your compulsions are driving you?

why are you obsessed with this JD guy?  It isnt going to help you keep your son or erase what you do to him each night.  We both know that yet you keep throwing personal attacks at other people hoping the pain will go away.

You are sick Ajax13.  Stop molesting and abusing your son.  Just because this poster proved you wrong is no reason to take it out on your own family.  Its only a forum.  Leave your kid in peace.

This is the "Fornits troll" who above is telling other posters that it's not OK to go after people personally, but there he is accusing someone else of sexually molesting their own child.  Where were the "moderators" on this one?  Absent again I suppose.

This "Fornits troll" should be permanently banned immediately as suggested by an earlier poster in this thread.

Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"

Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Maximilian"

The moderated forums on fornits are a lot slower than the two unmoderated TTI and Open Free For All forums, I think there is a reason for that. I think that is also a preview of what the entire forum will look like eventually, traffic wise if the full moderation plan is implemented. The idea that people need to be protected at the cost of freedoms is an old argument, and never produces the intended results.

It seems that it's because there were a lot of you guys posing as program vets or program parents in an attempt to counter what the real survivors and parents were saying.   Y'all were caught, plain and simple and now you're whining because you won't be able to do it anymore.

I've always been one who has not wanted a moderated forum, but this has gotten ridiculous and it was never a problem until you guys showed up and started your bullshit propaganda game.

Those people are still going to continue doing just that, Anne, only now if you call them on it and "out" them, you'll be "disciplined" and not they.  I can see the future.  And it's a Fornits dominated by "pro-program special interests" fighting a proxy war using the moderators as their footsoldiers against the victims of the parent-choice treatment industry.

This move will give the fakes/phonys apparent legitimacy and suppress dissent/pushback against their proseltyzing for programs.

Let's be honest, shall we?  The moderators failed in their duties continuously in regard to enforcing what little policy Fornits does currently have.  What leads you to believe they'll do better with a few more rules or a new "constitution"?  Unless they change their own visceral constitution, all will remain the same.

You could be right....I honestly don't know.  But I'm willing to at least give this a try (not that it's up to me).  If it doesn't work and ends up as you're saying, we can always go back to unmoderated, no?

I suppose we could, yes.  However, the entire problem could be solved by simply banning, right now, the biggest offenders adept at derailing, spamming, flooding, sockpuppetry.  I think you know who they are, no?

I also sent them running for the hills by telling them Charles Russel was a false prophet and the Watch-tower is as well, and that they are wrong on Jesus, the Trinity, Hell and many less significant issues.  

Different method, same result.

Let's not be so hasty...That "WatchTower" might be a decent sniper perch.  I could pick off all sorts of "witnesses" right fom there.