Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: cherish wisdom on April 19, 2005, 12:28:00 PM
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This was found on a site listing reportedly abusive facilities. The site can be found at
http://www.heal-online.org (http://www.heal-online.org)
Cross Creek Programs located in Utah is another World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools program. Representative George Miller of California demanded in investigation into all World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools after receiving hundreds of complaints from his constituents about the torture and abuse suffered by them and/or their children. There is an online article detailing the allegations of abuse at http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/2 ... -4985r.htm (http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/20040109-104725-4985r.htm). As of January 9th, 2004, California Representative George Miller demanded, and was denied by John Ashcroft, an investigation into WWASPS. According to Representative Miller of California, ?There is a laundry list of abuse of children at WWASPS schools: deprivation of food, deprivation of contact with their peers, physical abuse, mental abuse, sexual abuse, and parents are paying big money for services not rendered," Miller added in a Nov. 6 news release.? For more statements regarding Cross Creek programs, read below or click here.
Here is one parent?s review after rescuing their son from Cross Creek as could be found at http://www.teenprogram.info/schools/view/1177 (http://www.teenprogram.info/schools/view/1177) as of February 13, 2004:
?I recently picked my son up from this program after they wanted to send him to one of their affiliate programs out of the country. The tactics they use are dangerous, my son attempted suicide while there and no one even bother to let his parents know. The official diagnosis from this school was that my kid was a "spoiled brat". He is actually Bipolar and we were seeking a therapeutic school that would help him deal with his problems in a positive manner. I was shocked to learn that the parent reference list is made up of parents who will say anything to get a month of free tuition. Follow the money trail, they also give misleading information about your child's progress so that they will stay longer...more tuition $ for them I guess. My son is now in an amazing school, has not had a single incident of bad behavior, I speak to him weekly and things are looking up...no thanks to Cross Creek. If you have or are considering this school LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP!!! If your child is already there insist on speaking to your child. I have already reported them to Utah child services. Oh by the way my husband and I are health care professionals...we hope anyone reading this will learn from our mistake.?
All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
--
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Cross Creek is located in the home town of Robert Lichfield - founder and trustee of WWASP. It's in La Verkin Utah - a small town outside of Saint George - about 2 1/2 hours NorthEast of Las Vegas.
Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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I never saw that happening when I was there. Hmm. Never happened to me either.
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On 2005-04-20 06:49:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I never saw that happening when I was there. Hmm. Never happened to me either. "
That doesn't mean it didn't happen. Or that it isn't still happenning at Cross Creek and in other gulags.
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Most abuse takes place behind the closed doors of the observation rooms where children are isolated from the others. There have been numerous reports of similar occurances at Cross Creek and other programs. They do keep children cut-off from the outside world and this practice prevents them from being accountable to the public and parents. To prevent a child from having parental contact is outrageous and dangerous. There is a professional book entitled "Emotional Care of Hospitalized Children." Basically close involvement of the parent is essential for the emotional well-being of hospitalized children. To prevent contact for several months is not therapeutic and completely exposes the child to abuse of every kind. This needs to be exposed and prevented.
When we talk to god, it's prayer. When god talks to us, it's schizophrenia.
--Lily Tomlin, American actress
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On 2005-04-20 06:49:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I never saw that happening when I was there. Hmm. Never happened to me either. "
What did you never see happening? A suicide attempt? Cause Amanda said the other day she knew of a girl who tried to kill herself by drinking cleaning stuff or some such. And she also described her mother having to fight and argue w/ staff for a couple of weeks before being allowed to talk to her on the phone. And you know very well that they send uncooperative kids off to other, tougher programs.
So was there something else about CCM in that post that you're saying you don't believe?Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
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If Cross Creek is so great, great enough to merit the plane ticket out there or escort service fee *and* thousands of dollars a month for the kid to be there;
If the kid is really so fucked up and the parents aren't really overreacting;
If Cross Creek is really the appropriate facility for whatever the kid's problems are;
Then why wouldn't WWASPS and Cross Creek *support*---no, why wouldn't they be out in front *pushing* for----every state to have a list of independent licensed psychiatrists and independent licensed social workers and for each kid to be held under their state's emergency evaluation period in an independent hospital and the kid and his/her whole history evaluated both by said psychiatrist and social worker on an emergency admission basis?
If they're completely on the up and up and above board and honest and ethical and just want to provide kids with the best help possible, why are they so afraid of a pair of independent professionals evaluating the kid *before* the kid goes to make sure that placement in a facility is necessary and that the particular facility's treatment model (or if they use more than one, the treatment model that will be applied to *that* kid) is appropriate to the kid's problems?
If they're so great, why are they so afraid of independent professionals checking out whether their decision to admit the kid was a reasonable decision?
I mean, the reason *can't* be financial--a one-time evaluation by an independent psychiatrist and a social worker couldn't cost more than a couple of hundred dollars, next to hundreds up front and thousands a month spent on placing the kid. Wouldn't it be financially wise to make sure the placement is necessary *and* the right kind of placement for the kid's particular problems?
One of my grade school English teachers had a bunch of wise sayings on her wall.
One of those sayings was: If someone demands blind obedience, you'd be a fool not to peek.
The programs, WWASPS and Cross Creek included, go to an awful lot of effort to keep the laws lax to make sure parents go in *without* having to get a professional independent evaluation by someone with absolutely no stake in the outcome of that evaluation.
They go to an awful lot of effort to make sure that they have a lot of parent customers every month who are coming into the process blind.
Why do *you* think they do that?
Timoclea
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Wouldn't it be great if before placement of a child, in state or interstate or international, the state required the facility to provide the distance from the place where the children sleep to the nearest Western Union (which can neither be a franchise run by the facility or its owners, managers, nor employees, nor their families, nor on grounds owned or leased by same), then the state calculated the cost for bus or train and/or taxi fares (cheapest reasonable route) from that Western Union location to the kid's home state's capital (plus a one-week bus pass), then required the parents to escrow that amount with the state before placement. And required the parents to sign agreement accepting financial responsibility for any additional amount the state needed to spend to get the kid back to the greyhound station in the state capital. And let the parents know that they could receive a refund upon presenting the kid in person at whatever specified office in the state capital and signing certifying that the kid is 18 OR that the kid has been completely discharged from the facility (at which point the kid, if 18 or older, is free to go from the office and gets papers informing him/her of his/her options).
Then if the state told the kid before they got sent that upon leaving the facility they could get to any telephone and call collect 1-area code-GET-HOME, collect, and the state would get them to the greyhound station in their home state capital and get them a one week bus pass for the state capital's public transit system. And then either refund the excess to the parents or bill them for the difference.
Also tell the kids that they had until their 25th birthday to report anything they deemed abusive and that the state would review the complaint and if they felt it had merit would pursue it for the kid/new adult *if* the statute of limitations had not run (set state statute of lims to 7 years from 18th birthday), and that if they determined the complaint had merit they would no longer allow interstate placements to that facility or any facility that the state AG's office deemed to be substantially the same facility.
Hrms. Also make them escrow a $250 exit cash amount for the kid, to be given to the grown kid with the week's buss pass, refundable if and only if the kid is presented earlier than six months after his/her 17th birthday--so that on the 18th birthday or after the kid *still* gets one paid transit to the state capital from wherever he or she is on or after his/her 18th birthday provided he/she is within 6 months after the 18th b'day or release from a facility, whichever is later. Or before his/her 18th birthday if he/she is kicked out of his/her parent or guardian's home.
And you tell the kid this before they can put him/her in a facility. So if the kid gets kicked out or takes the exit plan that he/she knows for a fact he/she will be able to get to his/her home state with public transit and at least some chance of getting a job. Also let the kid know that they can use the GET HOME number for information on homeless shelters or social services they may be eligible for---including foster care if they've been kicked out underage, or even if they've run away as the delinquency of running away qualifies them for placement in foster care.
Basically, I would love it if my state defined and enforced a *reasonable* plan for exiting from minor status to adult status, at the parent's expense.
That's the societal norm, and I think the law should ensure that parents can no longer get away with ducking it.
Timoclea
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Before a child is placed in a residential program or boot camp they should most definitely have a complete psychological evaluation to determine if the intervention is correct. No competent psychiatrist would place a child who is depressed in a tough love program or boot camp. A child who is ADDICTED to drugs should be placed in drug rehab program where they are skilled with dealing with the detox associated with each drug and or alcohol.
A complete psych eval isn't cheap - but neither are these programs. A complete psych eval costs about $2,000 to $3,000. It takes a lot of time. The child is evaluated and the parents are questioned thouroughly. Other therapists and counselors are also questioned. All of this information is then evaluated and the psychologist or psychiatrist then determines what course of action would be appropriate - counseling, drug rehab, AA, NA, medications and so forth.
Too many people rush in - or read about these program in a magazine. These programs should not be allowed to accept children who have not had a complete physical and psychological evaluation first and a recomendation from both a medical doctor and a psychiatrist that the program could benefit the child.
Alot of pain and suffering and DEATH could have been prevented if this had been done in every case. for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Ironically, if the ICPC was followed and enforced, no kid crossing state lines would be placed without an eval.
Even more disturbing is the program providing a dx based on a brief interview. In my case, they heard dad's complaints, but weren't even interested in taking a history from me. I'm sure he alerted them to the fact that I would be opposed to the placement.
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Antigen,
Not saying abuse didn't happen. I am saying I didn't see it or experience it. My parents had excellent communication. My rep and therapist were excellent at communicating with them and calling them back. This is my personal experience. Bare in mind Amanda didn't have the same therapist and rep.
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Another report of abuse at CCM:
http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm)
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"Too many people rush in - or read about these program in a magazine. These programs should not be allowed to accept children who have not had a complete physical and psychological evaluation first and a recomendation from both a medical doctor and a psychiatrist that the program could benefit the child.
Alot of pain and suffering and DEATH could have been prevented if this had been done in every case. "
This is so true - children who are in poor physical condition, overweight, underweight - should not be placed in boot camps or wilderness programs where they may be under physcial strain.
A child needs a physical and a physcian's statment to play football - why not a strenuous boot camp? The physician and psychiatrist who conducts the evaluations should have absolutely no connection to the program. If they are paid by the program - then that is a connection.
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That would be a step perhaps and could have a positive impact.
In the case of Ian August, he was given a physical and had approval from an MD, AND was refered by an Ed Con. As it happened, Skyline Journey didn't divulge the extremely rigorous nature of the program. Ian was also on several psychotropic drugs which caused him to overheat, without exercion. I don't think doctors understand the true nature of these places and how they operate- forced marches, sometimes going without water for hours until they reach the next drop point, etc. I imagine they invision a reasonable program where the teen is encourage to take breaks and drink water or electrolite replacement every half hour. They probably don't know that they sleep outside in the elements either- rain, snow, sleet, hail, scorching heat. Extremely stressful conditions. The average person would spend weeks in preparation before embarking on a hiking expedition as rigorous as this. My neighbor was a hiker and we always knew when he was planning a trip- he'd be walking daily with a loaded down backback.
My son knew he was going to be sent to wilderness from his TBS, so he refused the physical. They sent him anyway and told him 'he'd have to deal with the consequences of his decision".
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On 2005-04-21 02:25:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Not saying abuse didn't happen. I am saying I didn't see it or experience it.
So you never saw a takedown or extended ISO?Preacher man don't tell me heaven is under the earth; you don't know what life is worth;.......If you know what life is worth, you will look for your's on earth.
--Bob Marley
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On 2005-04-21 02:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Another report of abuse at CCM:
http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm)"
Having read that, I'm more convinced than ever that the WWASP and Seed/Straight cults are solidly tied in some way. Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous
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Well I spent 2 years there and was never abused. News flash... they dont have locked doors anywhere in that facility to beat up kids. Isolation is another story. You tell me what you would rather have. An enraged kid that cares nothing for the persons around him trying to start a fight with other kids... or having this same kid in a room where no other kids can be hurt if he gets angry. I have been restrained there... I never experienced as abusive though. I fucking threw a table at a staff memeber... I think that constitutes in being subduded. I dont care what "teens have rights" bullshit you come up with... the teens that are there around these other kids dont deserve to be subjeected to harm because someone gets mad. Thats what Isolation is for. Any other non-results-based bullshit you want to put out there? :scared:
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On 2005-04-21 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"non-results-based bullshit"
::bwahaha2:: ::bigmouth:: ::puke::
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Anon, you contradict yourself. No locked doors (except ISO). And we all know that the entire compound is fenced and locked. Great! So, if you get permission (so you don't get taken down) you can step accross a threshhold within the locked compound, but you can't leave.
The author of that essay, K Adams, describes kids getting taken down for simply disagreeing w/ staff. Not threatening or using violence. Simply arguing. And she says she never set foot outside the compound for seven months after the initial kidnapping and strip search. Are you saying she's just making it all up? Even though she graduated and all? Why would she? What does she stand to gain by it? It's not asif she's trying to manipulate her way out of CCM. She's already out, moved out of the house and (at the time of writing) in college. So.... why, is all I'm asking?
You want result based reasoning? Ok, how come so damned many different kids who have been through different Synanon based programs all have nightmares about getting sent back years and decades later? And why do so many different kids who've never met each other describe the same incidents, whether they view them as abusive or not? It just doesn't wash. I believe you when you say you didn't perceive any abuse. But that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
How does that happen?
Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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On 2005-04-21 13:23:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-04-21 02:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Another report of abuse at CCM:
http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm (http://www.heal-online.org/crosscreek.htm)"
Having read that, I'm more convinced than ever that the WWASP and Seed/Straight cults are solidly tied in some way. Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous
"
The old ISAC site had a few lines about that connection, but it didn't give that many details. Just that Lichfield and a former Straight exec were/are both giving lots of money to the Republicans, and that they've met at some Republican convention prior to the establishment of CCM. A few months later, CCM was established with many practices/features identical or similar to what was going on at Straight.
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On 2005-04-20 09:18:00, Antigen wrote:
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On 2005-04-20 06:49:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"I never saw that happening when I was there. Hmm. Never happened to me either. "
What did you never see happening? A suicide attempt? Cause Amanda said the other day she knew of a girl who tried to kill herself by drinking cleaning stuff or some such. And she also described her mother having to fight and argue w/ staff for a couple of weeks before being allowed to talk to her on the phone. And you know very well that they send uncooperative kids off to other, tougher programs.
"
My grandaughter (now living with us) personally knew one girl at Casa by the Sea who tried to commit suicide by drinking an entire bottle of shampoo. My kid's "dark humor" comment had something to do with the waste of a good hard-to-come-by bottle of cheap shampoo, toiletries for which her mother paid nearly $100 a month extra.
She also personally was cut off from any direct communication with the outside world, including her mother, for nearly a year. Unfortunately, her mother copped out to the Program and did not go to bat for her daughter by making any attempt at all to communicate by phone, letter, or uncensored email with her.
Because you did not see it happen does not mean that it did not happen. In fact, when the same story is repeated about a hundred times by kids who *did* see it happen,...gosh, don't you think maybe it DID happen, even if you didn't see it? Such circumstantial evidence is considered valid in a court of law and can get a person even a death sentence if enough is in place to be believable.
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On 2005-04-21 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
The old ISAC site had a few lines about that connection, but it didn't give that many details. Just that Lichfield and a former Straight exec were/are both giving lots of money to the Republicans, and that they've met at some Republican convention prior to the establishment of CCM. A few months later, CCM was established with many practices/features identical or similar to what was going on at Straight.
Yeah, it's ancient history and, therefore, very difficult to prove. But even if you go back to early reports from Provo Canyon, which was founded in `74. This is the same year The Seed lost their federal expansion funding and two years before the Semblers founded Straight. There's also some mystery about how, exactly, Synanon methods and lingo came to The Seed. Some of us believe it was by way of a guy named John Underwood, but no one seems able to confirm or disprove that theory.
So... how did it happen? Where did the term "getting into your head" come from and how did it become a part of Straight and WWASP lingo? Was that part of Synanon culture too?
No gods, no masters.
--margaret Sanger
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On 2005-04-21 14:59:00, Antigen wrote:
"Where did the term "getting into your head" come from and how did it become a part of Straight and WWASP lingo? Was that part of Synanon culture too?"
"In your head" is also est and LifeSpring terminology. WWASP undoubtably got it from LifeSpring. Bob Lichfield was a LifeSpring trainer and a lot of the Resource Realizations people are from LifeSpring. So the question is: what is the connection between est/LifeSpring and Synanon/Seed/Straight?
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Exactly. I think it all goes back to Diderich.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard was not what I meant.
---Richard Nixon
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Check this out
http://www.rickross.com/reference/herba ... life9.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/herbalife/herbalife9.html)The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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My mom did Herbalife too. :roll:
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"I took my daughter to Cross Creek Manor one of WWASP's programs and attended their Discovery Seminar. This seminar made me very uncomfortable. I did not like the techniques used to intimidate people. We were told we had to attend these seminars if we wanted to attend workshops with our children. I felt manipulated by the facilitator. The staffers all looked brainwashed to me, with hazy eyes and smiles from ear-to-ear. We were never informed that this program was to crush you as a person. It was supposedly a boarding school to help with self esteem and defiant problems. I got my daughter out of there as soon as possible, but she was in that hell hole for one month. The stories she tells are horrible. She said that she fought an emotional breakdown every day praying that we would come and get her. The program bothered me the moment they told me I could have no contact with my daughter, except through the mail, which they read. They told the children over and over that 'your parent's don't care about you and that's why you are here!' I am outraged by the damage they have caused my daughter. She would have been better off staying at home."
http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenb ... sitor.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenboot/teenbootvisitor.html)
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Hmm. Iso? Again I NEVER SAID IT DOESN'T HAPPEN. I just never saw it. Iso? Yeah, I saw some chick carve some names in her legs with a pen. Iso? To me it's not child abuse. She attempted to carve another chick. Take down? Yeah, the girl was attacking another girl. The chick was pretty strong. Abuse? Not in my head. Kids can get pretty scary. Again, I was NEVER abused nor did I fell abused. I'm sure one of you will try to say that I may not see it now but down the road I'll look back and realize that it was abuse and blah blah blah. No, I will never see it as abuse. Believe what you want. I've been there and experienced it. Everyone's got an opinion (like assholes right?) Right.
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Cross Creek Manor, a Washington County, Utah, home to which Teen Help
refers troubled teen-age girls, "is one of many closed, secret cult
centers . . . where adolescents are impounded, tortured, berated,
brainwashed, and otherwise abused," he alleges in a Utah federal suit
filed on behalf of daughter Celece and mother Ceta Dochterman of
California. In that lawsuit, Celece claims she was forced to urinate,
defecate and bathe while being watched; she was called a "slut" and
"family destroyer"; and paraded naked in front of male staff.
Burke's lawsuit, also handled by Burton, alleges similar outrageous
treatment.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/an990514.html (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/an990514.html)
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On 2005-04-21 13:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well I spent 2 years there and was never abused. News flash... they dont have locked doors anywhere in that facility to beat up kids. Isolation is another story. You tell me what you would rather have. An enraged kid that cares nothing for the persons around him trying to start a fight with other kids... or having this same kid in a room where no other kids can be hurt if he gets angry. I have been restrained there... I never experienced as abusive though. I fucking threw a table at a staff memeber... I think that constitutes in being subduded. I dont care what "teens have rights" bullshit you come up with... the teens that are there around these other kids dont deserve to be subjeected to harm because someone gets mad. Thats what Isolation is for. Any other non-results-based bullshit you want to put out there? :scared: "
Non-results-based bullshit huh? OK fair enough however I will ask you to look around these forums and tell me what "results" you see. Let's face it some of us are bitter some are thankful an some just plain whacked from the treatment we received. (Oh and from what I see the thankful are few in numbers and often extremely defensive and outright self righteous). So what does all that mean? Really I'm asking b/c from what I see only your opinion counts...please tell me what I should think...berate me with insults if I disagree...Oh I'm sorry I was starting to think I was in the Program again.
The ironic thing is the ones who scream the loudest about "move on with your life" "The program really helped me NEVER abused me" are the ones who sound so much like the staff members from my facility. However I'm sure this point will never sink in for some. If I'm really lucky someone will retort with that over played immature "opinions are like assholes" line.
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What I think Perri is saying is that we are all different. My sister and I were raised with the same rules, same parents, same dicipline. My sister will say they were abusive. I will swear to you we had loving but strict parents. What some "feel" as abuse others see as correction.
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I don't think any of us have a problem with a raging kid being placed in a proper isolation room until he or she has calmed down.
What we *do* have problem with is children or adolescents being placed in isolation rooms that are substantially deviant from 72 deg. F. and/or with a floor temperature substantially deviant from same, and forced to assume specific physical positions--facing a wall, lying on the floor, etc. for hours at a time with only short breaks to stretch, with the isolation placement continuing for days at a time.
In an isolation room, there is no excuse for not going outside the door and leaving the kid to pace or rage or whatever so long as he/she isn't banging his/her head on the walls or floor.
Bipolar rages are the longest rages anybody has. Nobody rages longer than a bipolar, trust me. A bipolar rage lasts four to five hours. Nobody else has the emotional energy to sustain a raging fit for that long.
There is absolutely no excuse for keeping an adolescent in isolation longer than six hours before slowly returning him or her to a low-stress, low-stimulation, quiet, *pleasant*, un-isolated environment.
You don't calm a raging kid down by treating them like shit.
It doesn't matter what a "spoiled brat" or "rotten monster" the kid is. You can have an art room with art charcoal, art paper, and soft music that the kids get certain amounts of time in, that you can use to transition a kid from isolation back into the general population.
I know from calming irrational and destructive rages. I have bipolar disorder, I parent a child with bipolar disorder. We have the worst rages there are when we're not stable, there's nothing you can tell me about calming a rage that I don't already know.
But these programs want to be such hard-asses that they'd think waiting for an end to an immediate rage and then transitioning a kid back in through a low-stimulus social environment was mollycoddling them.
So they abuse them instead.
Yes, I sure as hell *do* think that even if you threw a table at somebody you should *only* have been in isolation in a comfortable-temperatured room, with padded walls and floor, and left to pace and rage until you ran out of steam---which you would have in less than five hours, guaran-damn-teed.
Then you needed to be moved back into the normal social routine of the institution---which needed to be not so horrible as to provoke rage in a saint (and I don't just mean a garden-variety mormon). And you needed to be moved back in through an appropriate transition environment.
The transition environment needs to have been an available option the staff could direct students to as a normal part of conflict de-escalation efforts before an overwrought kid ever got to the point of exploding in rage.
When you go out of your way to put people in an absolutely miserable, utterly intolerable environment, barren of all beauty and joy, barren of all positive emotional support, D'oh! They explode in rage at the slightest trigger. That's normal and human and not the fault of the raging person, it's the fault of the people who put that person in an inhumane, neglectful environment.
There should be *NO* phase that doesn't include something positive, pleasant, beautiful, or joyful as part of the everyday experience *merely for being a human being*. Maybe the parents and facility are right if they say the particular kid isn't a very good human being, maybe they're wrong---but you ought to get one positive, joyful, pleasant, or beautiful thing a day not as a reward, and not susceptible to being taken away for bad behavior, but merely because you're a human being.
If you put people in intolerable circumstances, which the "level" programs very deliberately do, rage is a normal, human, healthy response. What *wouldn't* be a healthy response would be passively laying down and taking being put in those circumstances---which is the response the kids get beaten down into before they're allowed to "advance" a level.
I don't mind us putting Charles Manson on the guerney and giving him the needle and burying the bastard, but as long as he *is* alive even the worst human being in the world---and he's certainly the worst one I can think of---deserves to have at least one good thing to look forward to each day, not because he's anything other than a rotten monster, but because he's a fellow human being, however horrible of one he is.
To deprive a *child* of one single solitary beautiful or pleasant or genuinely joyful thing to look forward to in a day is a monstrous act that places the perpetrators in the same league with every monstrous child abusing felon rotting in jail across the country.
It could be something as simple as desert, a chance to choose and listen to *one* popular song, twenty minutes in a comfortable chair curled up with a book (with a bookmark and access to the *same* book subsequent days until the kid is through with it--because I know some sadistic slimeball would twist it so the kid could *start* a book, but would then have to toe the line to get to read more of the *same* book), five minutes petting a dog or a cat, a game of cards with a couple of friends----something simple and good.
Everybody should wake up in the morning with *something* to look forward to that day.
Anger is not a useless, negative emotion.
Pain is not a useless, negative feeling.
Pain is a warning from our bodies or minds that we are suffering harm or in imminent danger of suffering harm if we don't get away from the danger.
Anger is a warning that some entity or group is harming us or trying to harm us.
Rage is anger combined with a sense of helplessness, and suppressed until it explodes.
The teen inmates' anger at the facility personnel is a normal reaction to the psychological harm they are doing to the teen by *deliberately* putting him/her in a situation where he/she gets up each morning without a single, solitary *good* thing to look forward to that day.
Learned helplessness as a replacement for anger and rage is not *progress*. It's severe psychological *damage*.
And that wilful or negligent (doesn't really matter which) damage to the teen's long-term psychological health is some of the first child abuse perpetrated on the teen in the program facility.
I haven't heard anybody yet, from *any* WWASPS program, list a single good thing they could unfailingly look forward to each and every day, that was *NOT* in any way conditional on their behavior, that would *NOT* be withdrawn no matter what---that they could look forward whether they were in intake or on the lowest level or in OP or in the infirmary---no matter where they were, *ONE* specific positive thing that they could absolutely count on having happen to them that day.
So you can tell me all day you weren't abused or didn't consider it abuse or that abuse is a subjective concept.
Abuse certainly *is* a subjective concept. CULTURALLY and SOCIETALLY subjective.
Abusers never consider what they did abuse.
SOCIETY defines abuse. WWASPS doesn't get to get together in its little cult and define abuse and neglect all by itself to whatever it wants those definitions to be or thinks they should be.
Our larger society's standards and community standards---community standards being the community standards of the US as a whole or those of the child's *HOME* state--not the state or country the facility is in------*WE* define what abuse is.
*WE* being the rest of America. Not me alone, not you and the little cult you got stuck in, the American people decide what is and isn't abuse.
And by those community standards, what happens at level-system program facilities *IS* child abuse.
To the lady who says she and her sister differ as to whether their parents were strict or abusive---the one of you whose opinions on your parents' behavior coincides with what the general American public would think, whether abusive or "strict", is the one who's right.
This is not a situation where neither of you is right or you're both right.
If the general American opinion would be that it was abuse, then it *was* abuse.
If the general American opinion would be that they wouldn't have wanted your parents prosecuted for it or you kids pulled from the home, but that it was too harsh, then your sister is still justified in being upset about it. And while you might not consider yourself abused, in that situation it would be unreasonable to think she *shouldn't* be upset.
If the general American opinion would be that your parents were normal and reasonable, even if on the strict side of normal and reasonable, then your sister isn't being reasonable.
But it's NOT just a morally relative matter of opinion where your opinion and your sister's opinion are equally valid just because they're opinions.
When you parent within a society, you have a responsibility to at least meet that society's minimum community standards for proper and loving care and raising and discipline of your children.
If your parents did, they did. If they didn't, they didn't. And unless they were right on the borderline between acceptable and unacceptable, one of you is right and the other one is wrong.
Abuse is subjective *FOR THE SOCIETY*.
Abuse is *NOT* subjective for the perpetrators and the victims. Parents know damned well when they are breaching society's norms. Facilities know damned well when they are breaching society's norms, which is why they hide in other countries and hide behind locked doors, and hide the ownership trails of their facilities, and hide whether they're affiliated with themselves or not.
Parents and facilities demonstrate an Awareness of Guilt.
And children in society have a right to expect that they will be cared for *AT LEAST* in accord with the minimum expectations that society has as norms for the care of children.
One of the reasons children have the right to that minimum is that we as a society make provisions for parents who *CANNOT* provide that minimum. We have social services--like AFDC and Medicare and Public Schooling, and when those aren't enough, we have a foster care system where we endeavor, not always perfectly, to see that kids get *at least* that minimum acceptable care---and better if we can manage it.
Which is why society is justified in punishing parents and facilities that wilfully put a child in a situation that we deem to be harmful or neglectful *by our own societal standards*.
We've provided a safety net--not always a perfect one, but still a substantial safety net---for the parents who *can't* meet the standards.
*Won't* is not an option. We're entirely justified in removing kids and punishing perpetrators for *won't*.
So if your parents' behavior wasn't so close to the borderline of unacceptable that most reasonable people would at least sympathize with your sister, one of the other of you is wrong.
It's a matter of opinion, yeah---but it's not a matter of *YOUR* opinion. Or hers.
TimocleaOur Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
Ben Franklin Letter to M. Leroy, 1789.
[ This Message was edited by: Timoclea on 2005-04-22 09:34 ]
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Perri, you've said before that you can't see how anyone could be harmed by the seminars. Then I read this:
From K Adams' essay on CCM
The infamous T.A.S.K.S. seminars & group "processes" were especially hurtful to me. One of my "issues" that I had to deal with at Cross Creek was childhood sexual abuse. It happened when I was 11 years old, and I had never really dealt with the trauma at that point. During one of the Focus "processes," (which I have been sworn to secrecy never to tell about) I was physically held down by four other Cross Creek girls (high phase girls who were seminar staff) while a fifth girl screamed into my face that "HE'S ON TOP OF YOU AGAIN!!! AREN'T YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?? ARE YOU JUST GOING TO LET HIM DO IT TO YOU AGAIN?? WHAT KIND OF SLUT ARE YOU??" I was crying and screaming so hard that I could barely see - I kicked and thrashed as hard as I could, but the four other girls just kept pinning me down to the floor, and I was unable to get out from under them.
And this sounds just exactly like something that might happen in Straight. And I know it comes from the same Synanon roots, as there are countless accounts of similar treatment in Synanon (the Game). These are not incidents that got out of hand and resulted in discipline of staff or change in policy. This IS the Program. This IS the Synanon method.
So then you say nothing like that ever happened in any of your seminars. And you say you never saw a take down except when a kid was actually hurting someone else. But damned near everyone else, even people who insist we should all just get over it and move on, acknowledge that takedowns happen for trivial incidents like walking through a door, looking out of a window or verbally disagreeing w/ staff.
In Straight, they always blamed the victim. They always said the kid was out of control before they got restrained. But, after awhile, you get used to the new reality that, right or wrong, if you turn your head at the wrong time, talk when not allowed, stand up w/o permission or any of a hundred other minor 'misbehaviors', you WILL get restrained. After awhile, it comes to seem perfectly normal and right. You don't "see" abuse when it happens right in front of you. That's brainwashing.
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
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You left out a very important abuse- emotional/psychological.
Some would argue that being isolated from family and the world is abusive, not to mention... being told on a regular basis that your parents don't love you, you're a fuck up/addict/slut, you deserve and 'chose' your punishment, etc.
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First I would like to say, with all personal beliefs set aside about the program, that I am deeply sorry that you had to go through such a thing when you were younger. I will never say that I understand how you fee because that has never happened to me. My girlfriend (a CCM graduate) was also sexually abused by her father when she was younger. To me there are some things that are not forgiven, and that is one of them. I will never speak to nor reffer to her father with any form of respect ever again. With that said, during your Focus process, did it help? While the tactics might not have been what you needed... and with all anger or distain set aside... did it help you? I think that there are a couple ways of looking at this situation. Please understand that I am a supporter of the program, but am not defended what happened right now. I am mearly asking if what happened assisted you in becoming stronger so that something like that does not happen again.
Graduate
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Oh come on... when were you ever told you that your parents dont love you and that you were a slut... that is bullshit and you know it.
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On 2005-04-22 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"First I would like to say, with all personal beliefs set aside about the program, that I am deeply sorry that you had to go through such a thing when you were younger. I will never say that I understand how you fee because that has never happened to me. My girlfriend (a CCM graduate) was also sexually abused by her father when she was younger. To me there are some things that are not forgiven, and that is one of them. I will never speak to nor reffer to her father with any form of respect ever again. With that said, during your Focus process, did it help? While the tactics might not have been what you needed... and with all anger or distain set aside... did it help you? I think that there are a couple ways of looking at this situation. Please understand that I am a supporter of the program, but am not defended what happened right now. I am mearly asking if what happened assisted you in becoming stronger so that something like that does not happen again.
Graduate"
I'm not K. Adams, but I have to say that I think you're sick.
That girl was forced to re-experience an extremely traumatic event, and you ask if it HELPED her? Do you even realize how insane that sounds? Her past was used by the program to further traumatize and break her down, and you ask if it HELPED her become "stronger"?
You people already abuse children physically, emotionally, and medically in the name of your program. And now you twist the words and experiences of one of your victims to justify your crimes?
Shame on you.
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Two good threads:
On Captivity, Isolation and Trauma
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#16936 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9&start=0#16936)
On Speaking the Unspeakable
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#16339 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2684&forum=9&start=0#16339)
Excerpt:
This passage is for those who may be considering a program for your teen, or those who have experience the captivity, isolation and trauma associated with programs.
The following are responses from trauma expert, Dr. Judith Herman in an interview with author Derrick Jensen. The question he has posed is, "What happens if a person is traumatized repeatedly or systematically?"
Excerpts/some paraphrased:
One begins to loose their identity, their self-respect...their autonomy and independence.
The situation is even worse for children raised in these circumstances, because their personality is formed in the context of an exploitative relationship, in which the overarching principles are those of coercion and control, of dominanace and subordination.
People lose their sense of faith in themselves; in other people; come to believe or view all relationships as coercive; come to feel that the strong rule; the strong do as they please; that the world is divided into victims, perpetrators, bystnadres, and rescuers. They believe or view all relations are contaminated and corrupted, that sadism is the principle that rules all relationships.
There is a loss of basic trust, loss of feeling of mutuality of relatedness. In its stead is emplaced a contempt for self and others. If you've been punished for showing autonomy, initiative, or independence, after a while you're not going to show them. In the aftermath of this kind of brutalization, victims have a great deal of difficulty taking responsibility for their lives. They seem passive, unable to extricate themselves or to advocate on their own behalf.
Captivity creates disturbances in intimacy-there's not room for relatinships of mutuality, for cooperation, for responsible choices.
There are many methods of coercive control perpetrators use, violence is only one, and not even one of the most frequently used. It doesn't have to be used all that often; it jut has to be convincing.
Other methods include the victim's isolation, and the breadkdown of the victim's resistance and spirit. You have capricious enforcement of lots of petty rules, and you have concomitant rewards. Prisoners and hostages talk about this all the time: if you're good, maybe they'll let you take a shower, or give you something extra to eat. You have the monopolization of perception that follows from the closing off of any outside relationships or sources of information.
And finally the method that really breaks people's spirits, perpetrators often force victims to engage in activities the victims find morally reprehensible or disgusting. Once you've forced a person to violate his or her moral codes, to break faith with him-or herself-the fact that it's done under duress does not remove the shame or guilt of the experience-you may never again even need to use threats.
There is hope and healing for those who experience captivity, isolation and trauma.
Dr. Herman says it's in telling the story, over and over, in a safe, supportive environment.
There is a desire to restore human connection and agency. Telling the story assists that process.
The possibility of mutuality returns.
She has identified the most important principles for recovery to be restoring power and choice or control, a reconnection with his/her natural social supports, to reestablish some sense of safety.
Only after safety has been established is it appropriate for the person to have a chance to tell the trauma in more depth.
Two mistakes: the idea that it's not necessary to tell the story, and that the person would be much better off not talking about it. Wrong. If the story isn't told and the emotions drained off, the story will fester. Don't suppress the stories.
The other- pushing people to share prematurely. If the timing, pacing, and setting isn't right, all you're going to have is another reenactment.
This seems to be tied to mourning what was lost.
An important question: How especially does an abused child mourn what he's never known?
What follows the healing process?
What renews people is the hope and belief that their own capacity to love has not been destroyed. The one's who do best are the ones who've developed a "survivor mission".
What is that? Make it a gift to others. It's really the only way to transcend an atrocity. You can't bury it. You can't make it go away. You can't dissociate it. It comes back. But you can transcend it, first by telling the truth about it, and then by using it in the service of humanity.
Many survivors find themselves much clearer and more daring about going after what they want in life, and in relationships.
When people are sensitized to the dynamics of exploitation, they are able to say, "I don't want this in my life." And they often become very courageous about speaking truth to power.
They join others in saying, "This is the thing we want to protect, and this is the thing we want to stop. We don't know how we're going to do it, but we do know that this is what we want. And we're not indifferent."
Jensen later states, "The responsibility for holding destructive institutions accountable falls on each of us."
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A debate ensues with a WASPie who claims that the 'personaliy' remains in tact, only the behavior is 'changed'.
AND
We don't stop these atrocities, because we don't talk about them. We don't talk about them, because we don't think about them. We don't think about them, because they're too horrific to comprehend. As trauma expert Judith Herman writes, "The ordinary response to atrocities is to banish them from consciousness. Certain violations of the social compact are too terrible to utter aloud: this the the meaning of the word unspeakable."
Isolation does strange things to a person's mind...Monkeys taken from their mothers at birth, placed alone in stainless-steel chambers, and deprived of contact with other animals, develop irreversible mental illnesses. As one of the experts in this field, Harry Harlow, put it: "sufficiently severe and enduring social isolation reduced these animals to a social-emotional level in which the primary social responsiveness is fear."
Stats from the Third National Incidence Study of Child Abuse and Neglect. This comprehensive report extimated that in 1993, approximately 614,000 American children were physically abused, 300,000 were sexually abused, 532,000 were emotionally abused, 507,000 were physically neglected, and 585,000 were emotionally neglected. 565,000 of these children were killed or seriously injured.
What is the relationship between these numbers and our culturally induced isolation from the natural world and each other, from the social embeddedness in which we evolved?
And a great quote from R.D. Laing:
"Exploitation must not be seen as such. It must be seen as benevolence. Persecution preferably should not need to be invalidated as the figment of a paranoid imagination; it should be experienced as kindness....In order to sustain our amazing images of ourselves as God's gift to the vast majority of the starving human species, we have to interiorize our violence upon ourselves and our children, and to employ the rhetroic of morality to describe this process."
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On 2005-04-22 10:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
That girl was forced to re-experience an extremely traumatic event, and you ask if it HELPED her? Do you even realize how insane that sounds? Her past was used by the program to further traumatize and break her down, and you ask if it HELPED her become "stronger"?
And, lest we forget, this would have occured under very different circumstances than the parents' seminars. This would have happened after the midnight escort or deceitful intake, the strip search, the months of not being allowed to have normal conversations or step accross a threshhold or have a single moment's privacy or recreation. And participation in the seminar would be required in order to even have a monitored phone call home, never mind getting one inch closer to freedom.
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being of His Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-04-22 10:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh come on... when were you ever told you that your parents dont love you and that you were a slut... that is bullshit and you know it."
Happened all the time in the Program I attended.
[ This Message was edited by: The Graduate on 2005-04-22 11:22 ]
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When I was at spring creek, there was a group of kids called the hobbit crew. These were the kids always getting accused of 'not working the program.' They would just throw them in the hobbit for days, weeks or even months until they started complying. What goes on in that environment would disgust any person.
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
If your parents locked you in your bathroom for 'non-working behavior', for weeks at a time- they'd be thrown in jail! Why when WWASP does this, is it not considered abuse?
Do not be fooled by clever marketing and frightend parents who are willing to sacrifice their child's safety and innocence for piece of mind. A lot of parents out there are only trying to keep their own kid there, at any cost- even if it means getting you to send your kid who should be at home.
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I was just scanning the post and would like to repy.
I did have a complete psychological evaluation for a weeks worth before the program. (went ot CCM)
Alot of you say that if a child needs help a mental hospital would be better than a program. They do takedowns at Mental hospitals too. They have isolation in mental hospitals too.
Instead of beating the dead horse, I would like to know from you all what you feel would work? What therapy methods have you heard of that are effective? What, if any, seminars (not WWASP but any) have oyu heard of that are effective? What books could you recomend that are effective, ect. Lets discuss what will and can work. What can be done. Reform to the program would be a start. Starting a voluntary treatment center designed specifically for teens with specific problems might work. Soem kids yes are just expereincing normal teenage hood. But when you self distruct because you cant handle that it is a different story. Soem kids need to get help to make it trough the adolecent stage. I certanily needed that help. And the program wasnt the only thing that helped. I give credit to everyhtin Ive learned that has been benificial to me, in the program and out.
And the only time I saw a takedown was when a girl was being violent to a staff or another girl. And they wer taken down only long enough to get them to calm down. I remember fights wiht my brothers and sisters where one sibling would get violent wiht another and another sibling woudl have to physically restrain the other to prevent harm to the other person. Were my siblings beign abusive? I dont think so.
So, since grounding a kid to their room is isolation (which a parent has the right to tel their kid they are grounded and cant talk on the phone) is any parent who grounds their kid abusive? Not many kids I knew of in iso stayed more than a day or two. So I cant say I kew of anyone in there for like a week or something.
Amanda
PS I am not advocating for the program. It needs reform. I just hope we can find a way to work wiht what we all know does work and try somethign new.
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That picture needs to be mailed to every Congressman and Senator with a statement urging them to support George Millers Bill. Can this be reproduced?
If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good- and CARES about any of it- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.
--Frank Zappa, American musician
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On 2005-04-22 13:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So, since grounding a kid to their room is isolation (which a parent has the right to tel their kid they are grounded and cant talk on the phone) is any parent who grounds their kid abusive? "
The hobbit wasn't a room, it was a shack-like cabin with a floorspace of about 6'x4' with linoleum flooring. The bathroom was a portapotty located about 50 yards from the shack, which you'd have to walk to, under close supervision of staff to relieve yourself. They didn't empty it enough, and would overflow with shit and piss all the time, so you'd have to balance over the pile the best you could without getting it on yourself.
They only gave you two meals a day. First meal was a dry bagel and banana on a paper plate. They didn't allow you to have utensils in there. Second meal was a handful of lettuce and black beans on a tortilla. You could keep a small dental hygiene cup for water. No shower the entire 72 hour stay. No shoes allowed. Only one layer of clothing, no matter how cold to prevent running attempts. (the majority of the year there is several feet of snow, its cold) You'd get a sleeping bag from 9pm to 5am to sleep on the floor with, no pillow.
I know 72 hours, or a week, or even a month might not sound like a long time 'on paper' to spend in that tiny room. Please, think about what it's actually like. Begging staff to let you out, begging to be treated as a human being and not an animal. It's a very long time, it does emotional and psychological damage to anyone, especially kids and teens. This is NOT treatment! This is what you do with your enemy during times of war, or to punish violent inmates in prison.
Comparing parents sending their kids to their room, and having a kid put in the hobbit are two completely different things. One option is very abusive, the other is normal parenting. It's a pity some people can't see the difference. ::noway::
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The picture isnt from Cross Creek -
The hobbitt at SCL -in the photo - has heat, so it wasn't like it was cold. You're in the mountains, so unless they had a separate cabin for kids that acted out or were threatening to hurt someone, where else would you give them some time to think about their actions? THey could beg all they wanted, but until they proved they weren't going to hurt anyone, they had to be somewhere they didn't like to be. If they liked it, they'd want to stay and do nothing. Could it be that all the kids that go there are good kids making good choices and someone just decided they wanted to put someone in there for no reason. It's unbelievable how enabling you all are! Apparently you've never dealt with a angry kid that needed some "think" time.
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On 2005-04-22 14:02:00, Dolphin wrote:
"The picture isnt from Cross Creek -
The hobbitt at SCL -in the photo - has heat, so it wasn't like it was cold. You're in the mountains, so unless they had a separate cabin for kids that acted out or were threatening to hurt someone, where else would you give them some time to think about their actions? THey could beg all they wanted, but until they proved they weren't going to hurt anyone, they had to be somewhere they didn't like to be. If they liked it, they'd want to stay and do nothing. Could it be that all the kids that go there are good kids making good choices and someone just decided they wanted to put someone in there for no reason. It's unbelievable how enabling you all are! Apparently you've never dealt with a angry kid that needed some "think" time. "
The amount of WWASPie bullshit you manage to stuff into one small post is amazing. Go on believing that you are "helping", that anyone who knows the truth about WWASP is "enabling", that all these hundreds of children are all "manipulators", that your son was actually helped at Cross Creek.
You let them murder your son's psyche, as well as your own. And you expect others to sit calmly and let this go on? Yeah, right.
Your little cult is going down.
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I don't know how to post pictures here, so I'm posting a link. It's a picture of the OP rooms at Cross Creek.
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... -rooms.jpg (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/graphics/border-day1/timeout-rooms.jpg)
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Dolphin, you can't even see right from wrong anymore. It's scary. You're rationalizing child abuse!
If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-04-22 14:02:00, Dolphin wrote:
"The picture isnt from Cross Creek -
The hobbitt at SCL -in the photo - has heat, so it wasn't like it was cold. You're in the mountains, so unless they had a separate cabin for kids that acted out or were threatening to hurt someone, where else would you give them some time to think about their actions? THey could beg all they wanted, but until they proved they weren't going to hurt anyone, they had to be somewhere they didn't like to be. If they liked it, they'd want to stay and do nothing. Could it be that all the kids that go there are good kids making good choices and someone just decided they wanted to put someone in there for no reason. It's unbelievable how enabling you all are! Apparently you've never dealt with a angry kid that needed some "think" time. "
Every single statement you made was wrong. Every damn sentence. Amazing.
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ON ISOLATION ROOMS IN MENTAL HOSPITALS: I saw one at Vista Del Mar - it was right off of the nurses station - it was the size of a small bedroom with a comfortable bed and chair in it. It wasn't a punishment cell like WWASP uses. They are violating the law whenever they use these cells for mentally ill chidlren. Prolonged isolation is considered torture - 72 hours is agains the law in Utah. According to the core rules - isolation can not exceed four hours and it can't interfere with sleep. So when they keep a child in there for 72 hours it's a violation of rules and regulations - of course the authorities never enforse the rules. Most people don't make a report of these violations. I'd suggest that someone who has been there - please make a report to the authorties. Indicated that they are isolating children in punishment cells for long periods of time - days, weeks etc. This needs to be reported to the proper authorities.
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People people...How funny it is. Take down abusive? No not if that person is harming themselves or others. I never witnessed anyone taken down for reasons that were trivial. Isolation? Whatever didn't see a girl who didn't belong there be in it. Abuse? Come on people.
Dolphin isn't ALL wrong as you would like to think she is.
Antigen,
I did see take downs. Just none I deem as abusive.
Amanda and I aggree a call to reformation is in order. Be clear we are not 100% All about the program. You people like to pigeon hole us into that.
Our Cult is going down? Sure. I just hope you people can find alternatives that work.
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Perrigand,
I've read enough of your Pro program nonsense. Take downs DO occur they hurt the kids.
Take th egirl currently sing WWASP in Florida, When they took her down her jaw was broken.The Casa staff put a boys tooth through his lower lip.He was totally unsuspecting a takedown He wasnt struggling or anything.It goes on and on.My child hurt his elboe when the staff took him down for no reason.They left him in th Hobbit until his arm would heal so no one else saw the injury.
Maybe you selectively didnt see take downs,but make no mistake they DID occur and kids were badly hurt.Thats called ABUSE.
You make the stay in thsi Prohram sound like a walk in the park.Its not. It can be dangerous and unnecessary mistreatment of kids.In my opinion.From my persoanl experience speaking with many kids who had been enrolled in thsi organizations many facilities.From some that have been closed.
You are obviously a very smart girl or a wwasp plant one or the other. Dont do a diservice to those fellow kids who have been hurt,neglected by this organization.Be truthful and have integrity not fairy land nonsense.
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Not only is the statement wrong its a LIE. This must be the shiny new cult parent.You are stating what you have been told by the people who have alot to gain from your believing them.
Its not heated.It designed to be torture from isolation.
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If you want to read sworn testimony about the un-heated Hobit; or bloody take downs that occur with no provocation or warning - read over John France's testimony; and Chris Goodwin's testimony, in the WWASP V PURE trial transcripts.
Isac has it up on the web site now.
http://isaccorp.org/wwasps/wwaspsvpure.pdf (http://isaccorp.org/wwasps/wwaspsvpure.pdf)
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-04-23 08:05 ]
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On 2005-04-23 07:00:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"People people...How funny it is. Take down abusive? No not if that person is harming themselves or others. I never witnessed anyone taken down for reasons that were trivial. Isolation? Whatever didn't see a girl who didn't belong there be in it. Abuse? Come on people.
Dolphin isn't ALL wrong as you would like to think she is.
Antigen,
I did see take downs. Just none I deem as abusive.
Amanda and I aggree a call to reformation is in order. Be clear we are not 100% All about the program. You people like to pigeon hole us into that.
Our Cult is going down? Sure. I just hope you people can find alternatives that work. "
You keep writing lines like, "I'm not 100% about the program", "I'm not as programmed as you think I am", "I think the program should be reformed", etc.
And then you go right ahead and post line after line of WWASPie bullshit.
I've been reading your posts since you first started posting here. At first, you managed to fool me. I thought, finally I'm seeing a WWASP graduate who is capable of seeing beyond the party line. But that was just a mask you put on to make us think you're different than the average WWASPie. You're not. Your complete acceptance of each and every bit of their ideology, your defence of their abusive practices... your posts speak for themselves.
Yes, you are 100% about the program. You are 100% in agreement with WWASP in each and every part of their murderous ideology. You will defend your cult and its "treatment" methods and you'll keep on attacking anyone who speaks the truth about Cross Creek and the other gulags.
I hope for your sake that someone will get you to an exit counselor.
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What works? Growing up works. Not having your family ship you off works pretty good. I know, I know, you were sooooo horribley messed up that you couldn't possibly have ever lived to see the age of majority w/o the Program. Heard it before, many times. Don't happen to believe it.
Perri what happens to someone at CCM if they walk out of the room, look out a window, ignore demands to do whatever and just passively resist the programing? You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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I have seen this picture on another site, and there is no child in the picture. This picture is doctored with some sort of photoshop software to make it look as if a child is in that room at the time the photo was taken.
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On 2005-04-22 14:41:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Some of the kids sent to the hobbit didn't explode or misbehave. They simply wouldn't/couldn't work the program. Remember the nerdy/strange kids in high school who would hang out alone and 'act strange'? There were some of them at spring creek too. There is a very real social structure to a prison environment, and there is always someone on the bottom of the food chain.
Everyone in the family would vent their anger on those kids, and they'd get physically beat up ALL the time. They would then do something they knew would get them up in the hobbit, because they'd rather spend months alone than be subjected to beatings and humiliation from their peers and staff. They had no advocate. This was the type of person who was in the 'hobbit crew' mostly.
A 'reasonable', emotionally stable person usually wouldn't stay more than 3 days (the punishment for CAT 5 offenses), it's easier to fake your way through the program. It's MUCH easier to progress, and at least obtain some basic privelages. To stay on level 2 isn't difficult, heck, it only takes a week or two to get there starting from zero, and you can live in relative ease. You get brown sugar in your oatmeal like everyone else, a candy bar a week, and 3 square meals. So why would some kids stay for weeks and months in the hobbit?
The only reason I am on here talking about Spring Creek five years after I left is because of the kids who CAN'T emotionally or physically defend themselves against this sort of abuse/neglect/manipulation. The 12 year olds, the kids who should never have been there. We ALL know this is a high percentage.
I only spent 3 days in the hobbit at a time during my longest stay, they spent weeks and months there. I talked to them. I saw the humanity draining out of them. This was not 'think time' by any definition. It was torture, abuse and downright wrong.
You are enabling abuse by supporting these programs, not us.
_________________
As Mao Tse-tung once said the secret is simply to convince the ?patient? he was sick and that they had the cure.[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2005-04-22 14:42 ]"
Back when I was a teenager, or rather, basically from birth until sometime after I highschool and I got a tougher shell and a chip on my shoulder - and isntead of turning the other cheek, I'd pull back my fist and get angry... I was one of those weak kids.
Sure, I wasn't put in a hobbit, but I was subject to the whims of apathetic adminstrators, teachers, and 'peers' of mine allowed to do as they wanted.
I was also suffering from a undiagnosed, unhelped semantic pragmatic disorder. I was one of the 'nerdy types' who was socially akward and unable to understand or express properly. Some think it was a result of being an exceptionally high-functioning autistic, but now thats been thrown into question.
Whether or not I have aspergers, I've gotten the ability to hit back and look out for others after suffering through an admittedly watered down version of childhood misery, and I'll be damned if I'll let it continue.
I'm sure some programmie is gonna come up and start venting bullshit at me, like dolphin or what the fuck ever... but the way I 'deal' with past injustice is preventing it from happening again, not bullshit seminars trying to mask the feelings! So why not stop abusing kids and I'll stop doing whatever the hell you all say I'm doing :grin: We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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On 2005-04-23 08:56:00, Antigen wrote:
Perri what happens to someone at CCM if they walk out of the room, look out a window, ignore demands to do whatever and just passively resist the programing?
And what happens to a kid who refuses the strip search?
Faith is believing something you know ain't true.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2005-04-22 14:02:00, Dolphin wrote:
"The picture isnt from Cross Creek -
The hobbitt at SCL -in the photo - has heat, so it wasn't like it was cold. You're in the mountains, so unless they had a separate cabin for kids that acted out or were threatening to hurt someone, where else would you give them some time to think about their actions? THey could beg all they wanted, but until they proved they weren't going to hurt anyone, they had to be somewhere they didn't like to be. If they liked it, they'd want to stay and do nothing. Could it be that all the kids that go there are good kids making good choices and someone just decided they wanted to put someone in there for no reason. It's unbelievable how enabling you all are! Apparently you've never dealt with a angry kid that needed some "think" time. "
Are you kidding?! I've dealt with a raging bipolar. I've *been* a raging bipolar.
"Proved" they weren't going to hurt anyone?! You can't prove a negative. Talk about a Catch-22.
Have you ever *tried* to stay someplace and "do nothing"? You run out of steam to do that.
Just like trying to sustain a rage---without someone to rage back and forth *with*, you wind down.
What *your* parents did didn't work. Unless the kid is dangerously mentally ill and is in a facility that works on the medical, not behavioral, model, GOOD conventional parenting works.
What works? Parenting classes from someone who knows what the hell they're doing.
My parents weren't superhuman, they made mistakes. My sister and some of her friends were just about as wild as they come. Some of my friends were as wild as they come and I was no angel and no picnic, either. Our parents managed because they knew effective parenting strategies for a teenager take time.
You have to spend as much time parenting a wild teenager as you do a two-year-old. Too tough? "Wah." Affection, even when they're in one of their really obnoxious phases, a determinedly pleasant home environment (around the teen--the wild teen is NOT pleasant, I know), serious adult supervision, and acceptance that you're just going to be able to keep the wildness down to a dull roar until they grow up.
The wildest, rottenest kids I knew in school were already straightening up to be *mostly* decent and *mostly* a bit mature by twelfth grade.
Most of the parents of the kids who are *not* genuinely disabled are immature brats themselves who have never stuck with something hard in their lives. They pick marriages too casually and either don't ditch out *before* having kids together or don't stick it out, and while a lot of people who have broken marriages with kids are mature adults and cope, these parents just throw in the towel too soon.
Yes, they have to do something, and it has to be something they aren't already doing, but they're picking the wrong thing. They tell themselves they're "doing the hardest thing they've ever done" ::boohoo:: by sending their kid away, but that's a load of bullcrap. They send their kid away because it's *easier* than living with the turmoil and coping.
You don't "fix" a wild child teen. You don't stop their bad behavior. You use your greater life experience and very real parental power to maneuver them to keep it down to a dull roar until they grow out of it.
That's "all", but it's hard.
So what? Life's hard, get over it already.
Timoclea
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More on this photo of the hobbit - is there a link to this photo - I'd like to send a copy of it to my friends and encourage them to write letters in support of George Miller's bill.
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My child wasleft in the hobbit.When I showed him that picture that came across the internet I was furious he had been into that enviornment.He said that the family rep told him many times that I knew he was in there.I had no concept of such a shit hole. Other parents who I had gone to parent support groups with who had visited their kid at SCL told me the kids in the hobbit were smiling,happy .I now wonder if they ever really saw the place or if they too were proficient liars.
Its wrong to put a kid in that enviorment it made my child have a breakdown.Inexcusable. I despise them for their lies.I despise them for what they do to kids. I should have gone and seen for myself.
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On 2005-04-23 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"More on this photo of the hobbit - is there a link to this photo - I'd like to send a copy of it to my friends and encourage them to write letters in support of George Miller's bill."
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
Right click the photo, click 'save image as' and then you can share the photo via email, etc.
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On 2005-04-24 00:31:00, Exit Plan wrote:
It was tempting to scream out for help, but it would have fallen on deaf ears.
A-men!O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!
--Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist
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This is why these programs need to be opened up to the public. They need to have pay phones availale for student use and parents and children need to be able to freely communicate without another person listening into the conversation. There should be visiting hours daily for at least an hour and for more hours on the weekend. Some emergency measures are needed now.
I just spoke to a family who sent their daughter to Casa By the Sea because they actually thought it was a boarding school. They cried when talked about how they weren't able to talk to her for three months.
How on earth does this type of policy bring families closer together? The girl who went there has some repressed memories. She did say that they spend alot of time sitting in a chair. Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will [America's] heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own.
--John Quincy Adams, Speech to the U.S. House of Representatives [July 4, 1821]
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Cherish - I know a kid with ASPERGERS who was sent to CASA thinking it was a really helpful school.
How the FUCK is a PROGRAM going to 'treat' AUTISM?Patient memoirs are a kind of protest literature like slave narratives or witness testimonies.
G.A.Hornstein
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(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
This is from a news article about the PURE v WWASP court case.
"John France testified that his child was kept in a small, cold structure without adequate heat or food at WWASP?s Spring Creek Lodge. The temperature was so cold that the orange his son has stowed away was frozen by morning. His child had to urinate in his drinking cup in the night. Mr. France?s child was forced into the ?Hobbit? at WWASP?s Spring Creek Lodge for almost nine months. His son had scratched the words, ?Let Freedom Ring? on one of the shelves where he slept during his ordeal."
Look closely at the picture, at the top, and you can see the words he carved. He also carved his name as you can see. Somewhat corraborates the story, wouldn't you say? So, to whoever started explaining the hobbit was heated and not as bad as it seems, shut the fuck up- you have no idea what you are talking about. Oranges don't freeze when the heater is working/on.
And just in case any hard core program supporters stop by, I hope this amuses you as much as me:
"Robert Lichfield was observed smiling in the corner of the Salt Lake federal courtroom, while WWASP lawyers were observed laughing in the presence of the federal jury."
::stab::
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I was just wondering if this family who testified ever reported this to the authorities or filed suit against them. This is so outrageous and inhumane - much worse than prison.
Being a street cop, witnessing the tragedy firsthand, I've become
convinced that drug prohibition -- not drugs themselves -- are driving the HIV epidemic and the systemic crime that has swamped our criminal justice systems.
--Vancouver Police Const. Gil Puder
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Anonymous. Believe what you want to. The program does not run my life as it does others. It has helped me. Disservice? No, I see no reason in bullshitting anyone? I tell it as I experienced it. Make no mistake I saw takedowns. What you don't understand is that not every single program experience is the exact same. We are not either completely brainwashed 100% for the program or 100% against the program. I see both sides. I see it's faults and it's gains. Strip searched? I didn't get that. I didn't other's probably did. Those girls that were taken down were a threat to themselves or others. Child abuse? Ok so let's let them abuse others. That's no problem right? Get real. 100% for the program? Believe what you want. Harming others? Nope, the truth is that it has helped me. This is my personal experience. I'm not gonna lie so you can feel better about your misfortunate experience. I am not a liar. That is why I have admitted to both the positive and negatives. Good luck with what you believe in. Just as you will fight for what you think is right as will I. I will not succumb to your false accusations. Why must things be black and white with a lot of you people? Did you ever think that grey was present?
Antigen: Demerits were given out to someone who didn't comply. It wasn't as if some girl would stare out the window and after being told not to do so for the 5th time was tackled by staff. She'd just end up with less points and possibly a visit to worksheets.
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On 2005-04-26 04:32:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Anonymous. Believe what you want to. The program does not run my life as it does others. It has helped me. Disservice? No, I see no reason in bullshitting anyone? I tell it as I experienced it. Make no mistake I saw takedowns. What you don't understand is that not every single program experience is the exact same. We are not either completely brainwashed 100% for the program or 100% against the program. I see both sides. I see it's faults and it's gains. Strip searched? I didn't get that. I didn't other's probably did. Those girls that were taken down were a threat to themselves or others. Child abuse? Ok so let's let them abuse others. That's no problem right? Get real. 100% for the program? Believe what you want. Harming others? Nope, the truth is that it has helped me. This is my personal experience. I'm not gonna lie so you can feel better about your misfortunate experience. I am not a liar. That is why I have admitted to both the positive and negatives. Good luck with what you believe in. Just as you will fight for what you think is right as will I. I will not succumb to your false accusations. Why must things be black and white with a lot of you people? Did you ever think that grey was present?
Typical WWASPie bullshit. You are not really capable of anything else, are you?
I feel sorry for you. You were a normal person once, with real feelings and thoughts and opinions. (Yes, I know what you're going to say-- "I was horrible! I was so horribly messed up! I was insane! I was a danger to society! I deserved everything that happened to me at CCM!"- but this being just more of the same program bullshit, I do not find these assertions at all credible). Your personality, your way of thinking, all of it has been demolished by WWASP.
And now you post on message boards in defence of those who murdered your soul and the souls of thousands of other children. You use longer sentences and different words to post the same programmed lies I heard so many times. You are a liar, although you don't intend to lie. You truly do believe your own lies. And that's sad.
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On 2005-04-26 04:32:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Antigen: Demerits were given out to someone who didn't comply. It wasn't as if some girl would stare out the window and after being told not to do so for the 5th time was tackled by staff. She'd just end up with less points and possibly a visit to worksheets.
What if she didn't do the worksheets. What if she talked to other girls on level one? What if she refused the strip search? What if she insisted on using the phone or, God forbid, complained out loud about the way she were being treated or suggested to others that they shouldn't have to be treated that way either?
Why must things be black and white with a lot of you people? Did you ever think that grey was present?
Yeah, there are shades of gray. And that's actually what I'm most interested in discussing at this point. For example, what is the difference between out of control, unreasonable behavior justifying a take down and a normal, healthy, self defensive response to harassment? I'll tell you exactly where I'm coming from. I saw a lot of takedowns in my program. And, at the time, I bought into the apologia, at least to some extent. Not that I thought it was alright to poke and prod and harass a kid till they lost their temper and then punish them for responding like a normal kid. Just that I figured everyone else had as much self control as I did, so they must have chosen the violent route for whatever reason. Turns out that wasn't the case at all. And I suspect CCM is just the same.
Another kid describes a scene where he was tackled by several adults for trying to make it to the payphone to call his parents. Is that out of line w/ your take on how things go at CCM? Do you think that's a reasonable way to respond to a kid trying to get to a phone? Especially since the adults[sic] must have known that the damned thing didn't work anyway.
Guard with jealous attention the public Liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that Jewel. Unfortunately, Nothing will Preserve it but downright Force. Whenever you Give Up that Force, you are ruined.....The Great Object is that every man be armed.....Everyone who is able may have a gun.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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I would like some real information on how it is at CC. In worksheets you can't touch your hair or make eye contact is that correct? You listen to motivational tapes for hours, you use crayon to write home with your not allowed or priviledged to write home with a regular pen. That's what I was told by one of the students recently. For passing a note with phone numbers, they got worksheets staff buddy, she also dropped a couple of levels, and she chose to be on silence for three weeks,I was told that she lost alot of respect from the other girls and the threapist didn't want anything to do with her either. What are the rooms like? Does anyone know if any of the rooms have mold? I would like to hear from anyone that has been there in the last year or two. Anybody out there? Please share what you know.
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Are Public Displays of Affection punished? They are at other W programs:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2695&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2695&forum=9)
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I am tuning in here on page 8. I am upset by the photo and story at the top of the page. I am stunned by the post that follows that one. Perrigaud, how can you even have one word of apology for an institution that would do such a thing to a child? And how can you post that program-apology immediately following the post with the photo of The Hobbit and the information that this kid was kept there for nine months? I think I will start worrying about you, I mean it. I think it might not be easy when you start to figure things out. I have been through various phases of belief and understanding in the eighteen years since I was in Straight. I escaped a great deal of the direct physical abuse. But now I see one girl in my mind who was "marathoned" -- taken to a tiny windowless room and yelled at or worse for several days. I worry about her. There is nothing good in an institution that abuses children as a matter of course, not one thing. I have heard that being a witness to abuse is also traumatizing. Maybe you don't want to know. I think people should not be angry with you. I hope my words don't sound harsh. Even if people disagree strongly with you, I think some of us can understand why you might be saying the things you are saying.
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Some people don't look farther than their own nose. For this girl - she claims the program helped her - OK - that's great. But one must look beyond their own selfcentered world. These institutions do not abuse ALL chidren. They do abuse those who may be "difficult" or those who don't break down as easily as others do. Some of those who are difficult may have an underlying mental illness. There are laws in place to protect the mentally ill from ABUSE. Perrigaurd should look up US CODE Title 42 section 112 and 114 - and look at the LAW. The law is there to protect those who suffer from mental illness. It is abusive to place a child in a lock down for weeks or months at a time.
Cross Creek is in Utah. Utah does have some rules for all residential programs - They are called CORE RULES. One of the rules requires a licensed psychiatrist to write an ORDER for isolation that exceeds 4 hours. The isolation must never interfere with sleeping time. So if a child is in a punishment cell for more than 4 hours - then the law has been broken. The law is there to prevent ABUSE. If a child is in the lockdown to sleep - then the law has been broken and again - abuse has occured.
These facilities do not allow contact with the outside world and most children in them are not aware of the laws that are in place to protect them from abuse.
Cross Creek is an abusive facility because they break Utah law and Federal law everytime they excessively isolate a child. They break the law when they are cruel to emotionally and mentally ill youth. This happens all of the time.
Perri - you need to look beyond your nose and realize that Cross Creek is an abusive facility. Just because you believe they helped you - does not mean they did not abuse and neglect others. As a result - these people will suffer mental anquish for years to come.
Please don't come here and sing praises to Cross Creek - it's a den of horror and abuse for many.
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It isn't just those who are "out-of-control" who are subject to take-downs. One girl was taken down for refusing to allow a staff member to censor her letter. Another time she was taken down for getting out of a chair without permission. Are these good reasons for takedowns? Basically anyone who speaks their mind or say's no to an order or rule is subject to a brutal takedown.
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On 2005-04-20 11:20:00, cherish wisdom wrote:
"Before a child is placed in a residential program or boot camp they should most definitely have a complete psychological evaluation to determine if the intervention is correct. No competent psychiatrist would place a child who is depressed in a tough love program or boot camp. A child who is ADDICTED to drugs should be placed in drug rehab program where they are skilled with dealing with the detox associated with each drug and or alcohol.
A complete psych eval isn't cheap - but neither are these programs. A complete psych eval costs about $2,000 to $3,000. It takes a lot of time. The child is evaluated and the parents are questioned thouroughly. Other therapists and counselors are also questioned. All of this information is then evaluated and the psychologist or psychiatrist then determines what course of action would be appropriate - counseling, drug rehab, AA, NA, medications and so forth.
Too many people rush in - or read about these program in a magazine. These programs should not be allowed to accept children who have not had a complete physical and psychological evaluation first and a recomendation from both a medical doctor and a psychiatrist that the program could benefit the child.
Alot of pain and suffering and DEATH could have been prevented if this had been done in every case. for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
"
Just curious... when would "tough love" actually be GOOD? Why is it that somehow certain kids respond well to torment and psychological regression? Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them.
--Thomas Paine
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I suppose it depends on the way tough love is used. Now if a persons definition of tough love is to torment or to psychologically injure them then tough love is a bad idea. But in certain situations tough love can work. Like to give a hypothetical example, say a perent has tried the approach of loving too much and basically enabaling a kid to behave in a certain way. They may feel like laying down ground rules and placing consequences for breaking those ground rules would be tough love. In that case i would feel like tough love would be appropriate. If a kid is living with you and doing illegal activities and bringing illegal stuff into your home then it is perfectly acceptable and not at all a bad thing to do to use tough love. It is also important when using tough love to not stop loving and caring for the child. OYu still make sure they are taken care of and have the necessities they need. But that is a life thing. If you go out into the "real world" and dont pay your rent, your landlord isnt going to let oyu get away with that for very long. Even the nice ones who will listen to your side of it and your story and will try to help you out wont do that for very long. Also if you dont show up to work and dont follow through with your responsibilities, your boss will usually fire you. So it can be effective I think if you have tried everything and the kid is just not listening or is not willing to respect you enough to not do illegal things in your home. My friend has an ex who is 34 and he still lives wiht his mom and still expects everyone he knows to accept his crappy behavior and let him get away wiht being a butt head. In that situation, it would be perfectly reasonable and probsbly the best thing to do for his Mom to say, "I love you but you have to move out and Im not going to financially pay for it all."
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So, 'tough love' is just holding them accountable, in the REAL way, not the psycho abuse 'consequences way'... like making them treat you decently or holding them legally accountable for crimes? Wowzers.
Uh... where the hell did that term come from then? Thats common sense. :???:
The only way I dont see that being a good thing, would be if some chemical or psycholgical issue is making them act out... but that requires actual therapy.
One thing tho... "I love you but you have to move out and Im not going to financially pay for it all." You cant be expected to just find a place and move out instantly. Moving takes a few days unless youre he-man or simply dont have any poessions. I've moved enough to know how much it SUCKS TO MOVE.
But yeah. Being a reasonable parent seems to be common sense, and the 'tough love' moniker seems to be a oft-used excuse to be brutal or excite emotional reactions from parents or voters. Whatever. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religion than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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I prefer to call what I use "Mom Fu" instead of tough love.
Being a parent instead of a buddy, being a loving parent instead of a matron in charge of an orphanage---good, old-fashioned, right up the middle parenting.
Yes, if you're being your kid's buddy to the extent of not being the voice of wisdom to reel them in when they are about to get into trouble, you need to shape up.
But my problem with "tough love" is that it works fine if the parents' rules are reasonable, but it never seems to me to ask that question in the first place.
And I think it's a pretty important question.
A lot of times I think parents with extremely wild kids have so much trouble because their discipline is not so much too lax or too strict as it is crazy and erratic and all over the place.
The parents I've seen have the worst kinds of hell with their kids are the ones that their rules are arbitrary, they don't make a lot of sense, they seem to change randomly, and a lot of times the parent alternates, seemingly at random, between indulgent and strict.
Most help groups or help philosophies that try to help parents with wild teens pussy-foot around the parents' tender sensibilities and just presume that the demands the parents want and decide to make are reasonable.
It's kind of a "set your rules, set your consequences, and stick to your guns and show that kid you mean business, dammit!"
It's very rare for someone to tell the parents the real hard truth that needs to be said: the wiser your rules and the more appropriate and proportional your consequences and the better you communicate the reasons for those rules to/with your child, the better that whole "parenting" thing works.
Nobody wants to step up and tell other parents that if you're having problems with your kid, sure, maybe *part* of the problem is that you're enabling bad behavior. But if you replace indulgence with *bad* rules, you're going to get rotten results. And there's a good chance that some of the rules you've already got aren't too great, either.
Stupidity is doing the same thing that didn't work last time and expecting different results.
Well, a lot of tough love seems to me to be enforcing the same old bad rules, only stricter and louder.
Sure, you should have rules and be consistent and enforce your rules, etc.
But if they're not very good rules or not very good consequences (meaning not proportional to the "crime"), then you're going to get not very good results.
If they're really horrible rules or really, horribly disproportionate consequences, the harder you enforce them, the more really horrible your results will be.
It's parenting, not rocket science.
If you're having trouble, one of the first things you should do is check your rules with parents who have adult children who were difficult as teens and turned out okay. Make sure they know (and make sure you mean it when you tell them) that you want an absolute no-shitter of whether your ground rules and expectations and consequences are reasonable. *I* wouldn't pick parents wedded to an ideology of any stripe (like tough love, forex). I would pick ordinary jane and joe parent whose wild-child teens are doing okay now as adults. I'd also pick some parents of grown kids that weren't wild thangs for comparison.
Rather than asking an opinion of your rules, one thing you might do is ask them what their rules were and how that worked for them. People are a lot more willing to talk about what they did than they are to critique what you're doing--especially if they like you or don't want to offend you.
I don't think parenting is something where you can pull a pre-made ideology off the shelf like a cake mix in the supermarket and get good results.
I think you have to pay attention, provide love, and put in a lot of time. And you have to exercise good judgement.
If your judgement is not always so good, then you find people whose judgement is better than yours, befriend them, and pigeonhole them for their opinions and actually take their advice.
That's the only substitute I've found for having good judgement yourself.
Finding someone who has it and will give you good advice, and then *taking it*.
Timoclea
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These programs do not require a complete psych eval. Like WWASP many just use a hard sell approach just to get more admits because more admits means more money. If a complete psych eval was required many of these children would not be placed in WWASP.
When is tough love good? The professionals say boot camps don't work. I tend to agree. Most children with problems have problems for a reason and most often it is within the home - broken families, drug or alcohol addicted parents, child abuse, sexual abuse, neglect - there's often a reason kids are messed up and it's usually a result of BAD PARENTING AND BROKEN HOMES. Does anyone disagree?I was born a heretic. I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
--Susan B. Anthony, U.S. reformer and suffragist
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To all those who feel sorry for me go right ahead. Feel how you want to. I'm not here to change your minds. I can't do that. Lies? No I speak the truth. Truth as far as what I experienced. To all those who think I'm brainwashed and have a "murdered soul". I don't and I'm not. To say I'm lying is crap. I know abuse can happen. It didn't happen to me or anyone other. I am not sorry for the things I have said. All my so called praise is pure. It comes from a place of true peace. I have inner peace. I don't live my life full of shame or regret. If you all want to say these programs are horrible go right ahead. I will continue to spout my experience.
The hobbit? We didn't have that. I support my program. I support my experience. I support what I know is true. If you think my truth is tainted than fine. I've been out for 4+ years and still thank it for helping me.
I don't claim to know about anyone elses program or experience. That is not my place.
Call it a cult. So is religion if you really get down to it. I think that if something works for someone than great. As long as they don't push it upon me. I'm not pushing anything on anyone. I am however telling my story.
Do I feel bad about those who have been abused? Yes. Do I think it's right? Not at all. I do have a heart.
Leave this forum? No. To the person that told me to not spout out my program rhetoric I say It's not rhetoric. I know you want to think it is. Go right ahead. No I will not just go away. No I will not shut up. Keep wishing.
Pity me? Feel sorry for me? Hey thanks...right back at you.
Antigen,
Well if a girl refused she'd just get more time in worksheets. Phone? Sucks for that kid. I don't doubt it happened. We were in lock down so I'm not surprised it happened. Do I think it's right that he got taken down? No.
RN,
I need to? No I don't need to do anything. I don't need to say what you want me to. I won't. I speak my experience not those of others as I don't know the full story. Look beyond my nose? Sure and I didn't see any abuse. I (as in me) didn't. It happened I'm sure but I didn't see it. I won't lie to make you feel better. Sorry. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-04-28 01:26 ]
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Elisabeth Stubblefield (64.12.116.66)
Posted on Sunday, June 06, 2004 - 12:01 am:
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In early 1995, I was 16 years old and had just been discharged from a private psychiatric hospital in Pontiac, Michigan. While in the hospital I was treated for depression and an eating disorder. I lived with my Mom, who was divorced from my Dad. My Mom was increasingly worried about my emotional health and decided she wanted me to spend what she told me would be "just a few weeks" at Cross Creek Manor. I flew to St. George, Utah voluntarily under the assumption that I would be there for no longer than 6 weeks, because that's what my Mom had promised.
Imagine how scared and upset I was to land at the tiny airport in St. George late at night to find no one there to meet me. My Mom had said I would be met by some people who would take me to Brightway Adolescent Hospital. I called my Mom from a pay phone and told her that there was no one at the airport to meet me. This should have been the first of many red flags for her. She called Brightway and about an hour later a nurse showed up in a van, accompanied by a big male technician. When I arrived at Brightway, I was shocked by the rigid, controlling, cruel atmosphere. There were about 17 other kids there, boys and girls, from all areas of the country. We were not allowed to talk to each other and if we did, we were punished by having to write an "essay" explaining why it was wrong to break the rules. I thought this was a little excessive, given the fact that teenagers are social and like to make friends. I also thoght it was excessive that we could not even enter a room without first asking a staff member, "May I cross?" Every tiny thing we did wrong, from having a wrinkle in our bedsheets to spending thirty seconds too long in the shower, was punishable by having to write an essay.
I was kind of confused as to why my Mom would choose to put me in this type of environment when I was dealing with depression and bulimia. I had never been involved with gangs, had trouble with the law, or been sexually promiscuous as had many of the other kids. Every single staff member at Brightway at that time, with the exception of 3 or 4 nurses and one psychologist, was male. The male staff were rude, cruel, and manipulated their power over us. On many, many occasions I watched staff members yell, shout, and generally berate the kids who were entrusted to their care. Once I watched four big males "take down" a skinny 15-year old boy because the boy turned his back to them while they were berating him. There was a seclusion room with a bed that had two belts across it. One belt went across the chest area and one went across the legs when a child was said to be "out of control." I am a nurse today and this form of restraint is illegal in my state, as is locking a patient in a seclusion room, even if the patient is "out of control." The technicians at Brightway would regularly threaten us with the seclusion room.
After four weeks of hell at Brightway, myself and two other girls were taken by van to remote La Verkin, Utah, home of Cross Creek Manor. Conditions there were no better than they had been at Brightway. Staff members were mean and manipulative. I had the feeling that a lot of the staff were on a "power trip," so to speak. Quite a few of them were young, not many years older than the teenage girls they were in charge of. I will never forget one disgusting male technician, a huge red-haired guy named Adrian, who was particularly fond of intimidating us. His sister Andrea worked there as well and she was equally sadistic.
During my first week at "the Manor" as we called it, some of the veteran girls gave me some very valuable information. They told me that I would be there for a much longer time than I had believed. I learned that my Mom had been encouraged to lie to me about staying only 6 weeks. Many of the girls had been told the exact same thing by their parents, including girls who had been there almost 18 months. Naturally, I was really upset to learn this, but having been tricked into going there was not nearly as traumatizing as having been "kidnapped." I remember one very sweet, friendly girl named Polly, who was from the San Juan islands of Washington state. She was walking down the street in her hometown when 3 strangers physically grabbed her and forced her into a van. She was driven to St. George, the whole time she said she felt very angry at her parents for helping plan the whole thing. The veteran girls also informed me that my parents were paying $150 a day to keep me at the Manor, that the Manor and Brightway were both owned by the same for-profit group, and that this was big business. In other words, some people were making lots and lots of money on the backs of troubled teens and our parents. I was also warned not to write home to my Mom about how bad conditions were at Cross Creek. If a girl were to mention in a letter to her parents that staff members were abusive and that we were seldom served anything but macaroni and cheese for dinner every night, there could be big consequences, such as having to spend an entire day locked in a seclusion room. It was pointless to complain to our parents anyway, because parents were warned in advance that we would complain of such things as a "guilt tactic."
So the parents were really the fools in all of this. They believed they had sent their unruly, out-of-control daughters off to be gently redirected, when in reality, we were being treated very, very poorly.
About a month after arriving at Cross Creek, it was time for me to attend my first "Seminar." The seminar was run by a lady named Jeannie and she was assisted by some of the veteran girls, or "student staffers." I will never forget having to stand before my peers and have them scream and shout at me about my "issues." My Mom had sent me there to get help for depression and bulimia, but Jeannie said she did not believe me. She told me that I was "sitting on something much bigger." It seemed to me as the seminar progressed that she was kind of encouraging us to come up with other "issues", encouraging to make things up. Jeannie continued to berate me and tell me I was "full of crap" until I decided to share with the group that I thought I "might" have been sexually abused as a child. When I shared this bit of information, her attitude toward me changed and she said that I had "arrived." I thought it was strange how bringing up the possibility of sexual abuse made everything change. It was really as if they wanted us to come up with fake "issues." During one seminar exercise we had to beat a towel against a chair as a means of venting frustration. There's nothing creepier than being in a room full of screaming teenage girls whaling towels against chairs.
After graduating from the first seminar, we were forced to attend a second seminar led by Jeannie's ex-husband, David. The central theme of the seminars seemed to be ripping us completely apart, then trying to "build us back up." What I remember most about the second seminar was the way David treated a girl named Melissa. She was forced to stand in front of all her peers and he told her she was being "kicked out" of the seminar. Melissa was one of my roommates at that time and it was extremely painful for me to watch her be humiliated in front of everyone. When David had finished yelling at her, he invited the student staffers to continue to humiliate her by hurling insults and accusations at her. She was very quiet and depressed after that incident, and I was happy when her parents took her home before she had to go through the seminar again.
In October of 1996, 6 months after she had tricked me into going to Utah, my Mom flew in from Michigan for a visit. During her stay, she was informed that my Dad had not paid Cross Creek any money in almost 3 months. They told her that they would keep me if she made a payment that day, but my Mom had made up her mind that my Dad should be responsible for paying them, even though he'd had nothing to do with me going there. She was so adamant that I needed to go there, but when she was put on the spot to make a payment out of her own pocket, she refused to do it. I was released that very day. 9 years later, I look back on that time in my life with a mixture of emotions. Disgust at how our parents were deceived into paying thousands of dollars, thinking that their daughters would be miraculously "cured." Sadness at how few of the girls made any improvement whatsoever. Longing because I made some really good friends at Cross Creek and have no idea what became of them. We were forbidden to exchange addresses or phone numbers. If we were found to possess a friend's address, there would be severe consequences. I remember a really nice girl and dear friend named Leslie Suarez from Arlington, Texas, Lindsay Lazarus from Dallas, Texas, Shelley Karn from Las Vegas, Nevada, Kim Stout from Malibu, California, Katie Goode from San Diego, California, Nicole Krieger from San Leandro, California, Shelley Anteshevich from West Bloomfield, Michigan, Michelle Harbottle from Anchorage, Alaska, and Carrie Baake from Seattle, Washington. My name at that time was Elisabeth Thomas. If any of you girls should happen to see this, know that I still remember each and every one of you. I wish you all the very best and hope that life has been good since those dark days at the Manor.
I got married in 1999 and went on to graduate from nursing school. I live in Chattanooga, Tennessee.
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/683.html (http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/683.html)
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Despite all the lies, the facts stand: Cross Creek Manor is an abusive, destructive gulag, just like all the other gulags in WWASPS' network. Parents beware.
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Perri- I am curious why you find it necessary to defend the program, some four years after you graduated? I understand if someone was abused or tortured why they would feel the need to let others know what happened. However, I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around your motives. Are you simply a WWASP apologist or do you have a motive?
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On 2005-04-28 01:26:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Antigen,
Well if a girl refused she'd just get more time in worksheets.
What next? What if she just persisted in making small talk w/ the other girls in worksheets and never wrote a word?
Phone? Sucks for that kid. I don't doubt it happened. We were in lock down so I'm not surprised it happened. Do I think it's right that he got taken down? No.
But you don't think it's abusive?Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.
--John Adams, U.S. President
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On 2005-04-27 22:24:00, nite owl wrote:
"These programs do not require a complete psych eval. Like WWASP many just use a hard sell approach just to get more admits because more admits means more money. If a complete psych eval was required many of these children would not be placed in WWASP.
When is tough love good? The professionals say boot camps don't work. I tend to agree.
I've heard a number of times about shrinks refering kids to WWASP and Straight spin off programs. I want to know how in the world these idiots conclude that this form of "therapy" is likely to help any of them. I mean, come on! There is no science to it. Well, that's not true. There's a science to it, lots of studies showing how much damage you can do to a person through these tactics. But there's no study I know of to show that the TC model is helpful in any way. If a GP were to prescribe purging or blood letting as a cure for som physical ailment, they'd lose their license and possibly land up in a psyche ward or worse. So how do these shrinks get away w/ recomending this particular brand of witchcraft?
Most children with problems have problems for a reason and most often it is within the home - broken families, drug or alcohol addicted parents, child abuse, sexual abuse, neglect - there's often a reason kids are messed up and it's usually a result of BAD PARENTING AND BROKEN HOMES. Does anyone disagree?
Yeah, I agree. But I also think that these issues are usually situational. It's not asif we didn't have these problems prior to the advent of the troubled parent industry. We did, in spades! We just didn't view angry teenagers as mentally ill and in need of psyche treatment. We just tried to keep them out of too, too serious trouble till they could grow up and figure things out.
IOW, most of these kids don't need any formal treatment. They just need to get out from under the thumbs of their neurotic, immature, self serving parents.
Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?
--Economist Milton Friedman
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Phone? Abusive? Yeah that's abusive. It didn't happen to me or anyone I knew. My personal program had no abuse. I can't speak for others.
Why defend it 4 years later? Alterior motives? No. Just want people to know the truth. My personal truth. I support the program for those who are/were like how I was. It helped me. It has helped those I know. Yes abuse rears it's ugly head. Amanda and I want reform to happen. We have been helped and are so grateful for that.
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And yet another report of abuse:
Celece Dochterman was a defiant teen when her mother sought help in 1995 and again in 1997. According to a lawsuit she and her mother filed in November, Celece already had been seen by psychologists and counselors and spent time in a psychiatric hospital. Nothing seemed to work.
Finally, her mother turned to Cross Creek Manor, the girls treatment facility Teen Help founder Robert Lichfield launched in 1990 in La Verkin, Utah. It was less expensive than a psychiatric hospital, and Cross Creek brochures promised "a powerfully impacting intervention that includes a proven behavior modification program."
Celece, however, was not the kind of teen-ager who could adapt to Teen Help's strict behavior control programs, according to the suit, which is pending.
"This case has absolutely no credibility," Teen Help said in a statement. The organization said Celece's mother insisted that her daughter be placed at Cross Creek Manor although the staff believed the girl would be better served somewhere else.
Teen Help has officially denied the allegations in court and has countersued Ceta Dochterman, the mother, charging her with breach of contract.
According to the Dochtermans' lawsuit, Celece was kicked, grabbed and routinely called a "slut" and "family destroyer."
Celece, like other teens there, was assigned a buddy who followed her everywhere, even to the bathroom. This disturbed Celece so much that she refused to eat or drink to try to slow digestion, the suit said.
Once, after she soiled her clothes, a male staff member taped a plastic bag around her waist as a form of diaper. When she refused to shower, she was stripped and placed in a bathtub, the suit said.
Finally, Cross Creek staff members took her to Brightway Adolescent Hospital, Teen Help's intake center, in nearby St. George.
That's where Neal and Sheryl Dorenbosch say they saw marks on her body that disturbed them. The couple were working as minimum-wage staff members at Brightway.
"She (Celece) claimed to have been sexually abused, physically abused, emotionally abused," Neal Dorenbosch said. "When they brought her in, my wife observed bruises all over her body. And she was begging my wife for some help, to call her parents."
Neal Dorenbosch called the hospital in St. George for advice. He was told that Utah state law requires that suspected abuse be reported immediately to law enforcement authorities.
He said he and his wife brought their concerns to the professional staff at Brightway and were told the matter would be handled "in house."
"At that point, we just waited out the night," Neal said. "That morning when we left the shift, we went home and called the state and called the sheriff. Within two or three hours, we were called to come in and talk with our supervisor. They were threatening to sue us for breach of confidentiality."
The Dorenbosches say Brightway then fired them from their $6-an-hour jobs. Teen Help did not respond to the Dorenbosches' allegations.
(www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-despe ... day3.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/day3/pg2-day3.shtml))
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And another one-- this time from Struggling Teens... I had no idea they publish anything but program propaganda.
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CROSS CREEK MANOR
Blanche Hardy
Granbury, Texas
www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoed ... anche.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/hardyblanche.html))
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A girl we?ll call Amanda spent almost two years at Cross Creek Manor, which is a Teen Help facility located in Utah. She was a pretty girl who had the most beautiful, long, red hair. A male staff member began screaming at Amanda for no good reason; calling her a "ugly bitch." The staff member screamed that he was sick of her 'hiding behind her hair,'' because her hair was in her face. The hysterical staff member grabbed a pair of scissors and chopped off all of her beautiful hair, while Amanda begged and pleaded for him to stop, but he would not stop. Not until every inch of Amanda?s' hair was cut off. Amanda lost her beauty.
(www.angelfire.com/ex/alexcross/ (http://www.angelfire.com/ex/alexcross/))
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Author:
Eklipsa
[ Next Thread | Previous Thread | Next Message | Previous Message ]
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Date Posted: 03:53:58 12/02/01 Sun
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I was reluctant to post my story about Cross Creek Manor due to the pain it would rehash but I have come to realize that although it may cause some pain to me it will help prevent the pain of others. First let me give you some background on myself. I come from a single parent home and was raised in my grandmother and grandfather's home. My father was an alcoholic and abusive to my mom so she moved back in with my granny when I was only about 6 months old and my brother was about two and a half. We all lived together until I was about ten or eleven. This is when my mom met my now stepfather. At first they just dated but after awhile they made plans to move in together. Of course my mother asked me to go with her but I would not hear of it. I had lived in the same town for almost all my life and I was shy and not so ready to pick everything up and start all over with a new school, friends etc. I guess you can say this was about the time I started acting out. I smoked my first cigarette at the age of about 12, marijuana at the age of 12 or 13. I also started drinking beer around this age. I picked the wrong people to hangout with, stayed out late, and my grades started dropping. At the age of 14 I was raped and after that I started snorting cocaine. Well to make a long story short my behavior became progressively worse until my mom had me admitted to a psychiatric hospital for adolescents. After leaving there I attended a drug recovery outpatient program, NA, AA, and went to see both a psychiatrist and psychologist regularly. I stayed clean for about 6 months and my behavior was back to it's good self. Then I relapsed and started drinking and smoking weed again- although I have not to this day touched cocaine again. I started running away again for days at a time and basically not caring what my mom had to say. I didn't even care about myself. This continued -it would be on and off if can understand what I mean-some weeks I was good others were bad- until late August of 1998. I had came home from work after being out for a few days. I was exhausted and depressed. I had a history of depression and had recently been diagnosed with ADD. All I wanted to do was sleep. In fact I slept for almost two days straight. I was awakened by a knock at the door. To my surprise there were 2 cops outside. My mom let them in and they told me to get dressed because they needed to talk to me. They asked me why I wanted to kill myself. Apparently my mom was at her rope's end and told them that I was threatening to kill myself because it was the only way she was going to be able to get me help. I told them that I wasn't planning on killing myself but they didn't believe me. They handcuffed me and took me to the hospital. From there I was sent to another adolescent psychiatric hospital. I was there for about three days when the psychiatrist said that there was no reason for me to be there anymore (I think my mental health coverage had run out) My mom came to pick me up- I knew something was up because my step dad was with her. At that time I really didn't like him and my mom knew that so she usually didn't bring him places to come get me unless I was in trouble. She walked me out to the car and the whole time she was holding my hand and hugging me and telling me how much she love me. We got to where her car was parked in the parking lot and 2 ladies (might I add the 2 butchiest and scary ladies I have seen in my life) grabbed me and threw me in their car. My mom was crying and so was I. I had no idea what was going on. They drove off and I kept asking them where they were taking me and at first they wouldn't answer. Then finally when we got to the airport they told me that they were taking me to some cool private school where I would have lots of fun and make new friends. I don't know why I believed them. I guess it was because at the point I was at I really didn't think moving away would be so bad. In my head I pictured a school that had a dorm and phones and a t.v. and normal things like that. In know way did I know what was coming to me. We got on the plane. I was horrified because it was my first time flying. We landed and drove the long distance to La Verkin from Las Vegas.
That was the day my life changed for the worse. I arrived at about 4:00 am in the morning. I walked in the big white doors of the manor. Immediately they were slammed shut behind me and I was asked if I knew where I was. I said no and was told "You are at a long term drug rehabilitation facility." I freaked out and asked her if I could call my mother. To that I got the reply "No you cannot. You are here because your mother doesn't want anything to do with you." I thought It was all a bad dream I actually pinched myself to try and wake up-but to no avail- it was all HORRIBLY REAL!!!! I was stripped searched, my clothes were taken away and I was given some second hand dirty T-shirt and sweat pants to sleep in. I was forced to sleep on a mattress on the floor for days. I was woken up at around 7am and was surrounded by robot looking girls running around to get ready on time. And that was just the beginning.
If I could remember everyday and every bad thing that happened I would tell you but I don?t. Some of the things I do remember are as follows:
-Every doorway I crossed I was made to ask May I cross
-I was watched going to the bathroom, taking showers, sleeping-everything I did I was under constant surveillance
-I was told daily that I was a f**kup, a slut, a homewrecker, that my mom didn't want me and that I would never change.
-When I admitted in therapy that I was raped I was made to feel that it was my fault because of my behavior.
-In what they called Physical Education I was forced to run around the yard many times. I wasn't not allowed to stop-even though my lungs were shot from smoking and I had borderline asthma- or I would receive a cat (which is a punishment where you have to sit and listen to tapes for hours on end until you got enough questions right to equal the amount of points of the cat. Each tape was half an hour long with a possibility of receiving 15 points- while cats started at if I remember correctly 50 points (I could be mistaken on that exact number).
-I was forced to be on silence for a period of about three weeks.
-"School" was not taught by teachers. I was given a textbook for each subject and answered the questions for each chapter and then given a test on each chapter.
-When I was put in the program I was 1 class away from getting a Regents diploma. I begged to be able to take a regents course so I could get the diploma I had worked so hard for 4 years but they didn't allow me to and I had to take a regular diploma.
- I got sick one night with a fever and I was throwing up. I was made to sleep with 3 heavy blankets. They said I needed to "sweat the fever out". I was crying because it was too hot under the blankets and I tried to take them off but I was threatened with a Cat for manipulation and not obeying staff orders. The next morning I was still forced to clean the bathroom (my every morning chore)
- I was given sleeping pills that made me feel horrible
- I was outside and this girl was trying to teach me how to do a cartwheel and I fell and hurt my shoulder. I was told it was my fault. I complained about the pain and they wouldn't take me to the doctor for about 4 days. It turned out that I had ripped a muscle in my shoulder and needed a sling.
- I was not allowed to write my mom for months and it took about 6 months to talk to her on speakerphone wit the therapist right there butting in.
- I had gotten a planters wart on the bottom of my foot from the dirty floors there and after complaining for about a month they took me to the doctor. He did laser surgery/removal of it and told me not to walk on it for a week. When I got back they would not allow me to stay in the sick room for more than a day. They said I was manipulating even when I walked on it and it started gushing blood.
- For about the whole time I was there I had an impacted wisdom tooth. Everyday it hurt. Sometimes it was so bad that I couldn't chew. They refused to bring me to have it removed and when I couldn't eat because of it they accused me of having an eating disorder and I got in trouble.
- There was an outbreak of scabies at Cross Creek Manor. When I told a girl who had it to stay away from me I was told that I was being "non-working" and I got in trouble. I just didn't want scabies!!!!
- When I decided to contact my biological father because I thought it might help me in my recovery I was told that I was trying to use him as a "back-door for my problems" When my mom told them it was alright for him to contact me through letters-he started sending me somethings that I was allowed to have (shampoo hairbrushes stationary flowers-stuff like that) they told him that he was spoiling me and that he couldn't contact me anymore.
- I was forced to wear only socks or thin slippers in the snow and rain.
- Every morning I was forced to show a staff member my underwear and bra to prove I was only wearing 1 of each. Somehow they considered that run plans. Personally I think they got off on it.
- When my therapist had said to me that my mom said that I was never allowed back in her house (which I know now my mom never said) I cursed about my mom and was made to right home a nasty letter cursing out my mom and not explaining why.
There are so many other things that happened. They are too numerous to list. I just hope that parents will think twice about sending their children to Cross Creek Manor, WWASP programs or any other place where they treat teens like crap. I know my mom would not have sent me there if she knew what it was like.
(http://www.voy.com/58570/1.html (http://www.voy.com/58570/1.html))
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Author:
Meagan Tinney
[Edit]
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Date Posted: 03:58:02 04/29/04 Thu
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Wow, I am not sure where to start. I just found this web site tonight and am glad I have. Well I am an alum of Cross Creek Manor. My name is Meagan Tinney and I was "escorted" to Cross Creek in 1995. Of course I went to Brightway first before it shut down. The experience I had at Cross Creek was both abusive and torturous. I believe I would have been seriously damaged had it not been for the relationships I made with the other girls there. I was in H group and my therapist while I was there was Jeff. I was at Cross Creek for 10 months. I was sent there for running away, and doing drugs. I had at that time a turbulent relationship with my father who was physically abusive. Cross Creek was a shock. I quickly did what I was told, because I saw what happend to the girls who didn't fall into line.
After I finally got out of that place I was very nervous. I wasn't used to being by myself and couldn't be outside without someone with me, else I felt like I was doing something wrong. I had been institutionalized. I had more emotional problems leaving Cross Creek than I ever did before. Since there wasn't any family therapy I had gone home to the same environment I had left, except I felt I couldn't stand up for myself. About six months after being home I began shooting up heroin. I abused this drug for close to 2 years before trying to get sober. It took another year to accomplish that. I was lucky to finally get some healthy therapy and thats when I really realized the damage that was done to me when I was there. I have done alot of work but still carry the scars from my time there.
I would urge any parent to never send their child to Cross Creek. I am saddend that this place is still running and seems to have grown, I doubt it's any better than when I was there. The staff was untrained and uneducated to work in that type of environment. I have found out that my old therapist molested a girl in my group shortly after I left. I remember he always blurred the lines of our relationship, but luckily he didn't cross those lines with me. Not to mention the diet, I gained 60lbs from the unhealthy food, and I should now I worked in the kitchen with Andy. Bless his heart he did the best he could with the budjet they gave him. Most of the staff had control issues and enjoyed torturing the kids.
I hope to get in contact with anyone who was at Cross Creek in 1995-1996, specially in H group. I would also like to get in contact with anyone who would like to chat about there experience. I will definately monitor this website now that I know it exists. I don't feel so alone anymore. Thanks Meagan
(http://www.voy.com/58570/1.html (http://www.voy.com/58570/1.html))
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Author:
RaeAnne
[Edit]
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Date Posted: 15:10:27 05/06/04 Thu
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I was at CCM for 7 1/2 months. The only thing that it helped me with was loving my family. while there i realized that my family is most important in my life. seminars pushed me away from everything, especially when people get in your face calling you a slut whore a nother fuck at a party etc. some pretty harsh stuff is said. if you are planning on keeping your kid there get used to nasty letters that they are forced to write to you. once I had to write to my mom telling her how much i hate her and how i wish she died. these are the kind of therapy assignments that we got.
(http://www.voy.com/58570/1.html (http://www.voy.com/58570/1.html))
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On 2005-04-28 01:26:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"To all those who feel sorry for me go right ahead. Feel how you want to. I'm not here to change your minds. I can't do that. Lies? No I speak the truth. Truth as far as what I experienced. To all those who think I'm brainwashed and have a "murdered soul". I don't and I'm not. To say I'm lying is crap. I know abuse can happen. It didn't happen to me or anyone other. I am not sorry for the things I have said. All my so called praise is pure. It comes from a place of true peace. I have inner peace. I don't live my life full of shame or regret. If you all want to say these programs are horrible go right ahead. I will continue to spout my experience.
The hobbit? We didn't have that. I support my program. I support my experience. I support what I know is true. If you think my truth is tainted than fine. I've been out for 4+ years and still thank it for helping me.
I don't claim to know about anyone elses program or experience. That is not my place.
Call it a cult. So is religion if you really get down to it. I think that if something works for someone than great. As long as they don't push it upon me. I'm not pushing anything on anyone. I am however telling my story.
Do I feel bad about those who have been abused? Yes. Do I think it's right? Not at all. I do have a heart.
Leave this forum? No. To the person that told me to not spout out my program rhetoric I say It's not rhetoric. I know you want to think it is. Go right ahead. No I will not just go away. No I will not shut up. Keep wishing.
Pity me? Feel sorry for me? Hey thanks...right back at you.
Antigen,
Well if a girl refused she'd just get more time in worksheets. Phone? Sucks for that kid. I don't doubt it happened. We were in lock down so I'm not surprised it happened. Do I think it's right that he got taken down? No.
RN,
I need to? No I don't need to do anything. I don't need to say what you want me to. I won't. I speak my experience not those of others as I don't know the full story. Look beyond my nose? Sure and I didn't see any abuse. I (as in me) didn't. It happened I'm sure but I didn't see it. I won't lie to make you feel better. Sorry. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-04-28 01:26 ]"
do you believe the abuse stories that are coming out of there? and, sorry, I'm tuning in late, but this Cross Creek Manor is where you went?
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Yes I went to Cross Creek. Do I believe the experiences? How very taboo. There are always 3 sides to every story. I don't claim to know what is false and what is a lie. I know that abuse is possible and has happened in the past. That is why I will not say it's true or it is false. It is not my place to say that. I know there are some liars and some truth. That's the danger with these places. If there is abuse it can become a real touchy subject. Now, here's the thing I only speak of my experience. Things do and have changed throughout the years as well. Such a case would be that when Cross Creek first opened the girls were allowed to wear there own clothes. Class was co-ed.
I will tell you what I never experienced. The food was never horrible. Yes we didn't have foie gras. But it wasn't inedible. Anyhow, being called slut and such was also not in my experience.
My experience is what I will speak of. I will not speak of anyone elses unless I had them in my group. In that case I would've spent my days with them for months.
I will say this, people love to martyr themselves. They love to be the victims. Am I saying that any of these girls are dramatizing their experience significally? No, but I am saying it is an experience. I could see how bits and peices could have happened. But some girls may be telling the truth.
Fact is I don't know. All I know is my own experience. No I never saw any girl being abused.
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Perri- You are the most programmed WWASP apologist I've seen post here. I hope you develop more mature critical thinking skills as you grow older.
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I for one don't believe anything Perrigaud says. She/he is here to refer parents to programs, it's all about the $$$$$$
::puke::
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Well, now we know what they meant when Cross Creek defined *shoes* as a "privilege."
Third level, I think it was?
And Perri's only answer was, "It's not as if we didn't have anything on our feet."
And then, "When it first started, girls were allowed to wear their own clothes"
Well, we heard from one of the other survivors what the replacement clothes the girls were made to wear were like.
If I only gave my kid socks or thin slippers in the rain and snow, child welfare would remove her from my home and prosecute me.
And that's not an isolated case of child abuse--I can't call it neglect, because it's not. These girls *had* shoes, Cross Creek actually took them away and forbade them from having any. That's abuse.
And it was wholesale.
Well, now we see what the "anything" was that they had on their feet, don't we?
Yeah, I think it's fair to say the kids are brainwashed into thinking what they experienced wasn't abuse or neglect, when by community standards it very clearly was.
I have to keep reminding myself to pity Perri, not get angry with her, because her head is still stuck inside a cult.
It does remind me of the movie "Stepford Wives." The over and over parroting of the same lines is creepy.
Timoclea
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It was also a privlage to wear your own clothes and shoes at Provo Canyon School. Going to school was also a privlage and going to church was a privlage as well. My child was forced to wear hideous bright orange and hot pink sweats and rubber slip on sandles. I made the mistake of asking them if she could continue her track training and that she was a star cross country and long distance runner. This must have freaked them out and they had her in these two-dollar rubber slip ons for her entire stay (which was about a month before we wised up and rescued her). The sweats were worn out. She wasn't allowed to wear any of her nice clothes. Most things were sent home because they weren't two sized too big for her. Anything that fit well was deemed immodest. I was told to send size 11 if she wore a size 7 - size XL tops and long if she wore a medium.
They also tried to steal the $500 I had placed in her account for snacks and things. I had to write to them and explain that she was never allowed to buy anything. They finally refunded it.
The isolation used was extreme - and illegal I later learned. This continues to go on in Utah.
They get away with this because most parents do not report this to the authorities. Probably because they don't know about it because they are not allowed to talk to their children without someone monitoring the call.
Also the children are reluctant to tell their parents anything because they will be treated worse if they do. That was our experience anyway.
When my daughter told me what they were doing to her - with the therapist on the other phone - I was horrified and demanded an investigation. After this he put her in solitary for a week as punishment. He never notified us of this.
... and the group leader was a clown.
GregFL
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On 2005-04-29 07:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I for one don't believe anything Perrigaud says. She/he is here to refer parents to programs, it's all about the $$$$$$
::puke:: "
I'm beginning to believe that that is the real reason for her posting here.
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Former students and their parents get money for referals - it's just a big money making enterprise.
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I dunno if she's getting referals or not. I sort of doubt it. I do think she's a bit addled about the whole thing, though.
Perri, you say you believe what these other folks are saying, but that you never wittnessed any abuse. Ok, take the seminars for example. Damned near everyone seems to agree that they involve a lot of shouting and bullying and degrading, humiliating behavior. You don't seem to disagree w/ that at all, but you don't think that's abusive?
How about the strip search? You don't remember having been strip searched. But damned near everyone else does remember being strip searched; by force if they resisted. You don't think that's abusive.
You acknowledge that (because you were on lock down) it's perfectly reasonable and not abusive to tackle a kid to the ground for attempting to use a pay phone.
It seems very clear to me that you were abused and Cross Creek Manor and that it was very effective. You think you deserved it, even needed it; that it was a kindness shown to a poor, horrible, wretched and worthless being; a redemption.
Lady, you got fucked!
I have found that the best way to give advice to your children is to find out what they want and then advise them to do it
--Harry S. Truman
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Perri you sound very poitive and healthy. Don't let these few try to tell you anything different. Only you went thru your experiences. The people here only want to believe the negative and will only accept opinions that are the same as theirs. They scream for tolerence yet have none. They want truth, but only if it lines up with their preconceived ideas. This board is addictive and depressing. Believe me, I've been trapped into it before. The best thing is to stay away for a while, then check back after a few weeks and see that the same people are still stuck in the same looser, victim attitudes. Be careful. The nay sayers here have nothing better to do than to doubt anyone else's success because they lack their own. Stay strong and take a break from these loosers!
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Cherish Wisdom, you said that a lot of pain, suffering and even death could be avoided if these psychological evals were done before parents just "rushed in".
I was one of those kids that was just "rushed in", and let me tell you. If my mom had in any way hinted that i was going to be sent away, I would have bolted. Most of the cases where it is neccesary for kids to goto these places, if the kid knew he would just run away. That solves nothing.
I am not opposed to the psychological evaluations, because i believe that there would still be a lot of kids out there that would still need to goto these places. Getting the tests done at home doesn't solve the problem though. It just gives the kid a chance to run. And I believe that we all would agree that any kid out on his own is not a good thing.
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On 2005-04-29 20:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Perri you sound very poitive and healthy. Don't let these few try to tell you anything different. Only you went thru your experiences. The people here only want to believe the negative and will only accept opinions that are the same as theirs. They scream for tolerence yet have none. They want truth, but only if it lines up with their preconceived ideas. This board is addictive and depressing. Believe me, I've been trapped into it before. The best thing is to stay away for a while, then check back after a few weeks and see that the same people are still stuck in the same looser, victim attitudes. Be careful. The nay sayers here have nothing better to do than to doubt anyone else's success because they lack their own. Stay strong and take a break from these loosers!"
"Victims attitudes". Sounds like one of Perri's lines. Do you all use the same lexicon? The same phrasebook? Sounds like it.
How about you get some exit counseling and come back when you'll be capable of thinking for yourself.
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Perri you sound very poitive and healthy.
By the way, how the hell did you reach that conclusion? Perri doesn't sound healthy. She sounds brainwashed and beaten, like a battered wife rushing to justify and take the blame for her husband's abuse. She's repeating the same lines over and over again (I agree with Timoclea-- it's getting creepy). She doesn't have a single original thought in her head.
There's nothing positive or healthy about being enslaved to a treatment cult like WWASP.
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Ok fine. You all can see me as what you wish. Go ahead and get angry with me. Go ahead and accuse me of being brainwashed. Go ahead and feel sorry for me. Go ahead and judge. Have fun. Wish I was getting money for the amount of bullshit I get from you people. You're right though about one thing. I shouldn't be so enwrapped in what you all falsely think. The most programized. Sure. Whatever you want to think. Jargon? C'mon. That is sheer crap. Victim? That's everyday language. Battered? No. You all are just mad because I haven't been abused. You'd all like to think I was but I wasn't. Despite my so called "abuse" I still managed to live a successful life. I have tons of money, I am at peace, I don't live my life the way you all like to. I don't spend my time complaining and bitching about the things that are wrong yet cannot or won't do anything about it. It's so easy for you all to talk yet how many of you have really done something to change it? How many of you are really effective? Good luck. Keep ranting and raving. If anything I feel sorry for all of you. And yes my heart does go out to the true victims. Those who were really victimized.
Antigen,
Seminars? You haven't talked to everyone. Just the ones who are traumatized. Not everyone ended up like this. Abusive? No.
Strip search? Maybe I was just one of the few that wasn't strip searched. I wasn't. Abusive? No not if those girls are coming in with knives and other such things. Not if they came in with drugs. Teens are no angels. You all seem to forget that. Teens are manipulative. I used to manipulate people like you all the time. I would play the poor battered teen. I made it seem as if I was just being a teen. I used to get a sick kick out of watching you people yell at my parents or teachers all because you felt I deserved my right to be me. In reality you were enabling me.
No I didn't say that the kid getting tackled was completely justified. Don't put words in my mouth.
Lady I didn't get fucked. However thanks for proving how dumb adults can be. Thank you for showing how naive you all are. No really, glad to know that the teens of America will keep getting away with things because after all they are just teens. They are fragile and need to be given the space to grow.
Deserved? Hell yeah I deserved to grow up. I wasn't treated as a wretched horrible person. Au contraire. I was given the time and help I needed to figure my life out. Everyone's journey (life) is different. I'm not going to feel sorry for myself. In the end it helped a lot. Nothing you or anyone can say will change my mind. Brainwashed? Ok say what you will. Oh, and 20 years down the line when I still am happy with myself and my life I will look back and laugh at all of you. And I will still feel for those who were real victims. Good luck to all of you all.
Since I'm supposedly getting paid for all of this I will be even richer. I don't intend on leaving you all alone. I will continue to tell my experience. Feel free to kick me out or get angry. My experience is my own. Don't try to make it something it wasn't.
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On 2005-04-30 01:45:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Ok fine. You all can see me as what you wish. Go ahead and get angry with me. Go ahead and accuse me of being brainwashed. Go ahead and feel sorry for me. Go ahead and judge. Have fun. Wish I was getting money for the amount of bullshit I get from you people. You're right though about one thing. I shouldn't be so enwrapped in what you all falsely think. The most programized. Sure. Whatever you want to think. Jargon? C'mon. That is sheer crap. Victim? That's everyday language. Battered? No. You all are just mad because I haven't been abused. You'd all like to think I was but I wasn't.
Yes, you were. You accepting WWASP's point of view concerning this does not mean that it didn't happen. Since you are a program graduate, because you have been manipulated and changed by them, your perspective is not credible. You will see tihngs as they want you to see them, not as it really is.
Despite my so called "abuse" I still managed to live a successful life. I have tons of money, I am at peace, I don't live my life the way you all like to.
I don't recall anyone here telling you how to live your life.
I don't spend my time complaining and bitching about the things that are wrong yet cannot or won't do anything about it. It's so easy for you all to talk yet how many of you have really done something to change it? How many of you are really effective?
We are changing it. By talking, by sharing, by warning parents about the dangers of places like Cross Creek. This board has saved many victims and potential victims of this destructive industry.
Good luck. Keep ranting and raving. If anything I feel sorry for all of you. And yes my heart does go out to the true victims. Those who were really victimized.
And my heart goes out to you. Because you are one of those victims, yet you can't even see it. Because you truly wanted someone to help you, and winded up being trapped in a cult.
Sicne the bulk of your post was addressed to Ginger, I'll leave that to her.
Brainwashed? Ok say what you will. Oh, and 20 years down the line when I still am happy with myself and my life I will look back and laugh at all of you. And I will still feel for those who were real victims. Good luck to all of you all.
Good luck to you too. I hope that someday you'll get the help you need and regain your real self, not the program-approved shadow you're in right now.
Since I'm supposedly getting paid for all of this I will be even richer. I don't intend on leaving you all alone. I will continue to tell my experience. Feel free to kick me out or get angry. My experience is my own. Don't try to make it something it wasn't. "
Feel free to post as you wish. I don't remember anyone here telling you you shouldn't be posting or that we want you out. I do remember someone telling you to stop lying, but that, unfortunately, is not possible, because you do believe your lies, and cannot tell between reality and program dogma any longer.
I hope that someday, someone will get you to an exit counselor. You are trapped. And although you consider your captivity a form of redemption, that doesn't change reality.
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No worries. Me and my supposed "brainwashed" self don't need your sympathy. Save it for someone who really needs it.
Again, there is nothing for me to realize or understand. I'm not brainwashed.
Really it's a double edged sword with you people. If I was depressed, sad, unhealthy you all would blame the program. "See what it did to this poor victim. She had her rights stripped and she was broken down to nothing and programized. The program is evil and it has hurt her." Yet if I do well and live my life better than most people do it's; "See what the program does? It brainwashes someone. She has no original thought. She is changed. That's sad. Poor girl doesn't even know she's brainwashed."
Interesting. Has it ever crossed your mind that it wasn't brainwash? That it helped me? That I didn't break down or get broken down? Seriously people. So the only reason I am doing so well is due to my brainwash? So the only reason I am for it is because I'm rewired? Wow. That's interesting.
Despite my so called "abuse" I still managed to live a successful life. I have tons of money, I am at peace, I don't live my life the way you all like to.
"I don't recall anyone here telling you how to live your life."
You sure misread me. I meant that I don't live my life the way you all live yours. Closed minded. Who really are the brainwashed ones.
By all means feel free to respond to what I said to Ginger. I would love to hear you're insight.
Helping future potential victims? Ok, if that's what you really believe. Keep fighting your fight and I will fight mine. :wink:
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No worries. Me and my supposed "brainwashed" self don't need your sympathy. Save it for someone who really needs it.
Oh, I am. I'm saving it for victims of the programs. People like you, who are trapped-- and who are in so deep that they don't even know it.
Again, there is nothing for me to realize or understand. I'm not brainwashed.
Really it's a double edged sword with you people. If I was depressed, sad, unhealthy you all would blame the program. "See what it did to this poor victim. She had her rights stripped and she was broken down to nothing and programized. The program is evil and it has hurt her." Yet if I do well and live my life better than most people do it's; "See what the program does? It brainwashes someone. She has no original thought. She is changed. That's sad. Poor girl doesn't even know she's brainwashed."
I'm saying you're brainwashed not because of the way you live your life. I honestly couldn't care less. The reason I'm saying you're brainwashed is because you are defending a highly abusive program with extreme fervor. It's because you quote their dogma again and again. It's because you view what was done to you, as well as your past, from WWASP's point of view.
Interesting. Has it ever crossed your mind that it wasn't brainwash? That it helped me? That I didn't break down or get broken down? Seriously people. So the only reason I am doing so well is due to my brainwash? So the only reason I am for it is because I'm rewired? Wow. That's interesting.
I'm saying you're brainwashed because that is what the program does to people-- it uses method developed in the LifeSpring cult and in North Korean POW camps to convince people that they have been helped, save, redeemed, enlgihtened, and that anyone who dares speak against the program is either a liar or a fool.
The program doesn't really help anyone. It only convinces you that it does. A very telling sign is that you are here, 5 years later, defending it. Any person who have had some issues and got normal legitimate help for their issues will tell you that once they worked things out, they moved with their lives. You are not able to that. Because whatever problems you had and the way you worked them out has stopped being the main issue long ago. When you became a WWASPie, the main thing became not your problems or what you were going to do about them. It became the program. And it still is. That is why you are here, making excuses for them, 5 years later. You bought into their bullshit hook, line and sinker.
Despite my so called "abuse" I still managed to live a successful life. I have tons of money, I am at peace, I don't live my life the way you all like to.
"I don't recall anyone here telling you how to live your life."
You sure misread me. I meant that I don't live my life the way you all live yours. Closed minded. Who really are the brainwashed ones.
You are. i have reached my conclusions about the program after researching its origins, talking to people who have been there (both graduates and non-graduates), as well as with professionals in the field of psychology who confirmed that WWASP's program is a thinly disguised mind control program. Nothing more, nothing less. If I'll ever see any evidence that WWASP's program is helpful in any way, I'll change my mind.
By all means feel free to respond to what I said to Ginger. I would love to hear you're insight.
I'll get to it sometime later. Not that my insight will do you any good. You stick with your bullshit and you are willing to say anything and do anything to defend the Holy Program.
Helping future potential victims? Ok, if that's what you really believe. Keep fighting your fight and I will fight mine. :wink:
I will. And many others like me will keep on fighting. While you fight to maintain an abusive, destructive cult, a POW camp for children, I will fight to have these places shut down and the children freed. While you will fight for people to be albe to physical, emotionally and in some cases sexually abuse children, I will fight to have these people put behind bars, where they belong.
Make no mistake about it, this war will be won. Cross Creek will be shut down, along with all the other gulags. No child will be forced to endure what you and thousands of other innocent children have endured. This war will be won.
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Perri, look at the people here. They are the ones that are trying to break you down and get you to say things that never happened. Isn't that what they accuse the program of doing? There is so much double talk from these people. Maybe they really are the brainwashed ones. Maybe they went to too many seminars and that is the only way they know how to communicate. They repeat the same lines and try over and over to twist and force your words. Be glad you aren't physically near them. They would probably try to take you down and throw you in the Hobbit for not telling them what they want you to say! You know the old line...misery loves company? This is a classic example. It must be really hurtful to those that were abused to hear that others weren't. I don't doubt that some are just as you have stated that you believe some may have been, but you didn't see or experience it. I have spoken with victims of spousal abuse that just can't believe that all husbands don't smack their wives every now and then. They really believe that the ones who say they have never been beaten are lying. They hold to that mentality to justify them staying stuck where they are and doing nothing to better themselves and move on. That is what I see happening here. These people just don't want to believe that others were not mistreated and were helped at some programs. Again...misery loves company.
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On 2005-04-30 05:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Perri, look at the people here. They are the ones that are trying to break you down and get you to say things that never happened. Isn't that what they accuse the program of doing? There is so much double talk from these people. Maybe they really are the brainwashed ones.
I don't see this happening at all. People that come here are frustrated since THEY were personally abused, physically, sexually and emotionally at a facility that might still exist today! The frustration occurs when you are told by one person you are not telling the truth, because in THEIR limited experience, in their small group they never witnessed abuse. Guess what? The abuse could of happened where you guys were not! What a revelation. :wave:
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read the post again, and Perri's posts again. Neither of us deny that abuse has happened at some of the programs. All she claims is that it was not her experience. She never saw it or experienced it. She NEVER said it could not have happened to someone else.
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On 2005-04-30 06:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"read the post again, and Perri's posts again. Neither of us deny that abuse has happened at some of the programs. All she claims is that it was not her experience. She never saw it or experienced it. She NEVER said it could not have happened to someone else."
No, she just calls the ones who DO say they were abused weak. :roll: Power concedes nothing without a demand. The limit of oppression is determined by the extent of the endurance of the oppressed.
--Frederick Douglas
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Hell, come to think of it a lot of people are weak because they think they are. Cayo...honestly. So if you were put in the program (unless you already have been) would you give in to the supposed "abuse". Would you let it overcome you and victimize you?
Wanna here some real program talk? Anonymous my experience of you is that you have a lot of pent up anger that you have not dealt with. How interesting it is that you stay anonymous. How non working of you. I get that you like to speak your mind yet you hide. How is this a reflection of your life. My feedback to you would be the I encourage you to grow the guts to take a stand for yourself.
Program apologist I am not. I am an advocate of my own experience and wish that there were more like mine. However this is not so. So I am more of a Program Advocate of Reformation that is not yet in progress. So there are no more counts of abuse.
How spoiled we all are to think that watching tv is a privelage. That having shoes instead of slippers is a privelage. Mind you I never went anywhere I would have harmed my feet if I had slippers on.
Some of you are as bad as those "brainwashing" program people. You do push for me to believe and think as you do. How funny. You are what you hate. :rofl: Who's really pure out of you? Only a few.
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On 2005-04-30 06:55:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hell, come to think of it a lot of people are weak because they think they are. Cayo...honestly. So if you were put in the program (unless you already have been) would you give in to the supposed "abuse". Would you let it overcome you and victimize you?
Unfortunately, yes I did....for many years. It damn near killed me a few times.Zany fun. It was a first - even Ben Franklin never arranged for something like this, and he was full of himself.
John Gorenfeld
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Make no mistake about it. There will always be some form of Cross Creek. Abusive? Yes I too will fight for that to be eliminated. POW? No it's not. Military Schools are worse. Why aren't you focused on what harms everyone. War? Do you even acknowledge that there are kids dying so you can have your precious shoes, makeup, tv, and freedom?
Facilities? They helped me. I stick by that. Did I ever say "Holy Program". No I didn't. Again you keep trying to make me out to be like an evangelist. Not so. I see both sides. Nice try. Keep trying to make me out to be all about the program. It's amusing. Again you are just as bad as the ones you say are the real harmful people. Tsk Tsk. :oops:
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On 2005-04-30 06:55:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Hell, come to think of it a lot of people are weak because they think they are. Cayo...honestly. So if you were put in the program (unless you already have been) would you give in to the supposed "abuse". Would you let it overcome you and victimize you?
Wanna here some real program talk? Anonymous my experience of you is that you have a lot of pent up anger that you have not dealt with. How interesting it is that you stay anonymous. How non working of you. I get that you like to speak your mind yet you hide. How is this a reflection of your life. My feedback to you would be the I encourage you to grow the guts to take a stand for yourself.
Program apologist I am not. I am an advocate of my own experience and wish that there were more like mine. However this is not so. So I am more of a Program Advocate of Reformation that is not yet in progress. So there are no more counts of abuse.
How spoiled we all are to think that watching tv is a privelage. That having shoes instead of slippers is a privelage. Mind you I never went anywhere I would have harmed my feet if I had slippers on.
Some of you are as bad as those "brainwashing" program people. You do push for me to believe and think as you do. How funny. You are what you hate. :rofl: Who's really pure out of you? Only a few."
:lol: I had NO idea how programmed you were until you posted that! Anyways, have a nice life, I hope you find your way out of WWASP's shadows.
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Perri, I stay anon because I have had experience with this board giving out where I am and because of the thread and those on it, it revealed who I was even as an anon. I do not trust those moderating this board. Experience has led me to that. I am not angry at all. The only reason I periodically come back to this board is to try and encourage those that have had positive experiences with programs to continue to be positive. It is so much easier to drag someone down than it is to pick them up. This forum can be so discouraging if you get caught up in it. You on the other hand have been a light and encouragement to families that need to hear both sides. I have no doubt that many have been abused in programs, but I also have no doubt that many have been helped. One does not justify the other. What honestly needs to happen is to establish a "better business" type bureau to truly help families in crisis. Something like the nursing homes have with ratings. There are changes that need to happen, but some here want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I am working with a local youth shelter to try and establish a list of options for parents with kids that need help. AND before anyone screams...I am not getting paid, nor do I ever want to. Taking action even when small can start the ball rolling in the right direction. I also come to this board and get information that is very useful to me regarding reccomendations. Many of the stories here are so herendous and similar that I can very comfortably believe there is a problem. I have very much appreciated your imput and your posts.
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On 2005-04-30 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have no doubt that many have been abused in programs, but I also have no doubt that many have been helped. One does not justify the other. What honestly needs to happen is to establish a "better business" type bureau to truly help families in crisis. Something like the nursing homes have with ratings."
I completely agree.
This forum can be so discouraging if you get caught up in it.
You can say that again! :lol:
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Make no mistake about it. There will always be some form of Cross Creek.
No, there won't. The WWASP cult will be destroyed eventually, and children will no longer be subjected to this shit.
Abusive? Yes I too will fight for that to be eliminated.
But you don't. You continue to lie and excuse their behavior and the darker aspects of the program.
POW? No it's not. Military Schools are worse.
No, they aren't. Military school do not feature a "treatment" program that been developed out of a known cult and tactics used in North Korean POW camps.
Why aren't you focused on what harms everyone. War? Do you even acknowledge that there are kids dying so you can have your precious shoes, makeup, tv, and freedom?
Do you realize you're talking to a person who lives in a country that's been at war since its establishment, and who has seen combat? Don't drop your self-righteous "I've seen poverty! I was so poor and miserable! I am so much more aware than all of you to the troubles of the world!" shit on me.
Facilities? They helped me. I stick by that. Did I ever say "Holy Program". No I didn't.
Oh, no, you didn't. But you do put them on a pedestal. You do justify and excuse everything they do. You do refuse to critical examine what was done to you. To you, the program is indeed holy.
Again you keep trying to make me out to be like an evangelist. Not so. I see both sides. Nice try. Keep trying to make me out to be all about the program. It's amusing. Again you are just as bad as the ones you say are the real harmful people. Tsk Tsk. :oops: "
No, I'm not. I don't kidnap children in the middle of the night. The program does. I don't strip search children against their will, the program does. I don't subject children to days and weeks and months of solitary confinement, the program does. I don't beat and restrain them, the program does. I don't degare and humilitate them in seminars, the program does. I don't stop them from communicating with the outside world, the program does.
-
:???: My child was out of control and when we took her to a local hospital she said we were abusing her. Not true. My child is currently at CCM and she is getting better. Stories of abuse abound with some children. Some true some not. My child is currently happy and thriving at CCM. I have not been stopped from seeing her at any time. Only a parent can make the decision for their child. No residential treatment center is good for every child. To say all are good or all are bad is unjust to the facility. Many children are being helped in different facilities. Each to there own. Anyone considering this needs to do there homework and follow there gut. We did the local hospital thing and it never improved our child or our family situation. CCM is working for our family and child.
-
On 2005-04-30 09:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
" :???: My child was out of control and when we took her to a local hospital she said we were abusing her. Not true. My child is currently at CCM and she is getting better. Stories of abuse abound with some children. Some true some not. My child is currently happy and thriving at CCM. I have not been stopped from seeing her at any time. Only a parent can make the decision for their child. No residential treatment center is good for every child. To say all are good or all are bad is unjust to the facility. Many children are being helped in different facilities. Each to there own. Anyone considering this needs to do there homework and follow there gut. We did the local hospital thing and it never improved our child or our family situation. CCM is working for our family and child."
Of course, some kids lie. But when you have so many complaints and so many children telling so many detailed, similar stories, you can bet that something's going on.
Your daughter have lied in the past, that's true. But she is not lying about CCM. CCM is abusive. If she wasn't abused in the past, she definitely is now.
-
On 2005-04-30 01:45:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Antigen,
Seminars? You haven't talked to everyone. Just the ones who are traumatized. Not everyone ended up like this. Abusive? No.
You've been through the seminars. So has Amanda. Are you saying that these other people's descriptions are out of line w/ the seminars that you participated in? That they're lying about it? Or that they're giving a pretty accurate description, but you just don't think that what they're describing is abusive behavior?
Strip search? Maybe I was just one of the few that wasn't strip searched. I wasn't. Abusive? No not if those girls are coming in with knives and other such things. Not if they came in with drugs.
Then why don't they do strip searches at prisons and juvenile detention facilities? They don't, you know. They just do a pat down, check the pockets and such. They don't make you squat and pull your lips open. Only adult prisons for convicted felons and some psyche hospitals practice routine strip searches. It is illegal and imoral to strip someone unless and until they've been found guilty of behavior that our society deems worthy of that extreme level of scrutiny. Being a teenager at odds w/ their parents doesn't come close to that.
Teens are no angels. You all seem to forget that. Teens are manipulative. I used to manipulate people like you all the time. I would play the poor battered teen. I made it seem as if I was just being a teen. I used to get a sick kick out of watching you people yell at my parents or teachers all because you felt I deserved my right to be me. In reality you were enabling me.
Perri, I do respect you still. Please don't take this the wrong way. I disagree that you haven't got an original thought in your head. However, at this moment, I do feel sorry for you and I do think you've come to accept some horrible self concept notions that are simply not true.
Teens are manipulative, dishonest and untrustworthy to exactly the extent that all other human beings are, except for small children who haven't yet become adept at it. Right now, the people who brought us WWASP are infamous for manipulating and playing the victim. When people speak out to the media, sue them, call for LE investigations, etc. (which is to say constantly) Robert Browning Lichfield, Ken Kay, Randall Hinton and all the rest start whining like little babies about it, never applying their own dogma to themselves. It's all a vast left wing conspiracy of "the adversary". They never take responsibility for their actions. They always blame the victim and manipulate their followers into "trusting the process".
Perri, by making excuses for their long-standing pattern of bad behavior, you are enabling them.
No I didn't say that the kid getting tackled was completely justified. Don't put words in my mouth.
I only asked if you viewed that as abusive. Personally, I do. Especially since the adults in charge would have known that the phone was dead anyway, so why tackle the kid? All they had to do to prevent him from calling home was to wait till he figured out that the phone was dead. There's a reason why they tackled him instead of taking the non-violent approach. Do you have any idea what that reason is?
Lady I didn't get fucked. However thanks for proving how dumb adults can be. Thank you for showing how naive you all are. No really, glad to know that the teens of America will keep getting away with things because after all they are just teens. They are fragile and need to be given the space to grow.
Yeah, they do. And, believe it or not, most of them do come up just fine w/o any drastic intervention. Yeah, you get away w/ some things in that you don't get caught by any authorities each and every time. But there's no getting away from the natural consequences of your own behavior. If you lie and cheat all the time, your friends won't trust you. If you betray the trust given you then you lose it.
One of the dirty tricks that the Troubled Parent industry plays on parents and kids alike is just exactly the same as what fortune tellers do. They give you a list of vague questions; "Have you ever [fill in the blank]" The questions are phrased so as to catch up damned near everyone. But, at the end of the quiz, they tell you that so many "yes" answers indicates serious trouble of some sort. It's a lie. It's a confidence game. It's not new or revolutionary. Scheisters and psychos have been working this same con down through the ages.
But, fortunately, human beings come equiped w/ the ability to learn from their mistakes and improve their methods and habits over time. We tend to forget just how irresponsible or thoughtless we were when we were young and to compare kids ta'day to an impossibly high ideal. But the fact is that for thousands of years teenagers have been growing up just fine w/o the "help" of the Troubled Parent industry.
Deserved? Hell yeah I deserved to grow up. I wasn't treated as a wretched horrible person.
Then you didn't go through the seminars? You weren't held incommunicado w/o your shoes and consequenced for things like looking out a window, making normal conversation w/ others, disagreeing w/ staff? You somehow were treated entirely differently than all the other kids at CCM? Or you just learned to suck it up and blame yourself?
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
-
On 2005-04-30 06:55:00, Perrigaud wrote:
Some of you are as bad as those "brainwashing" program people. You do push for me to believe and think as you do. How funny. You are what you hate. Who's really pure out of you? Only a few.
When my own dear daughter was getting pimp slapped around by her boyfriend, I (along w/ all of her extended family and friends) tried hard for years to get her to understand what was happeneing and to quit excusing his behavior.
Yeah, I do want you to reconsider the Program methods and whether or not they're abusive. Partly for your own sake, because life SUX if you have to carry around the extra baggage of believing what you say you believe about yourself having been one of those horrible, terrifying "teenager" beasts. But my interest has more to do w/ trying to get some general understanding of this scam so that others won't fall for it.
I do not believe for one minute, Perri, that you ever were one of those horrible beasts. For the most part, I don't even believe such a beast exists. And I do know a lot of teenagers. Even was one once upon a time, long ago. Did you know that, back then, we actually made pets of rocks? It's true!
Necessity is the excuse for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of the tyrant and the creed of the slave.
-- William Pitt, 1763
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On 2005-04-30 07:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
but I also have no doubt that many have been helped.
Of course you don't because you refuse to entertain any doubt or discussion. "Trust the process" you say and do. In this regard, you're no different from the whack jobs out in the streets burning copies of Harry Potter but who have never read it because they're afraid of how it might influence them.
To be an atheist requires strength of mind and goodness of heart found in not one of a thousand.
--Samuel Taylor Coleridge, English poet, critic, journalist, philosopher
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On 2005-04-30 08:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
POW? No it's not. Military Schools are worse.
No, they aren't. Military school do not feature a "treatment" program that been developed out of a known cult and tactics used in North Korean POW camps.
Actually, they do. Navy Seals and Army Green Barets undergo training that simulates a POW experience. There are significant differences, though. They know going in that they're going to be severely abused and they do so voluntarily. And the purpose of the training is to teach the soldiers how to resist brainwashing and torture, not to get them to succumb to it.
If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
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On 2005-04-30 12:37:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-04-30 08:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
POW? No it's not. Military Schools are worse.
No, they aren't. Military school do not feature a "treatment" program that been developed out of a known cult and tactics used in North Korean POW camps.
Actually, they do. Navy Seals and Army Green Barets undergo training that simulates a POW experience. There are significant differences, though. They know going in that they're going to be severely abused and they do so voluntarily. And the purpose of the training is to teach the soldiers how to resist brainwashing and torture, not to get them to succumb to it.
If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
"
I know that. But Perriguad was talking about military schools, not the actual military. I find it very hard to believe that there are military schools out there that offer SERE training...
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What's amusing is how a successful graduate is being told her experience wasn't the way it was at all. Being told that our experience of the seminars was brainwashing in a negative sense. Being told that the kids at Cross Creek are abused even when there are other kids there that don't see it, staff, therapists, parents visiting, even the people delivering food don't see it. Being told there's some secret hiding place that kids are beaten, raped, starved and abused. Is that why they are at capacity with a waiting list now? Are the parents standing in line to put their child in harms way? Are they so uninformed that they don't read the propaganda and sensationalism and are blindly leading their child to a life of abuse?
The only abuse I see here is your abuse of people's tendency to be in fear of the unknown and planting seeds of doubt. Doubting themselves as parents, doubting there is help. The only thing kids that were pulled early learned is how to manipulate beyond what they knew they could get away with before. Now they've got mom and dad right where they want them. Get real. Do you really think a kid that was pulled because they say they were beaten or starved will actually admit it was a lie? They'll write letters, go on TV. go to any length to make it real to anyone who is gullible enough to believe them. And, unfortunately, there are too many that do. Are they getting some sense of power from this? They might even begin to believe it themselves. All the while there was never any physical evidence or verbal evidence by anyone that witnessed it. No won lawsuits.
What you call abusive treatment is no more than kids having to follow rules to get more privileges. It's starting at square one, back to the beginning before the kids starting making the rules.
What you call brainwashing is no more than a little re-wiring in a positive sense. Don't even compare this with Hitler, etc., They used whatever they did for their own gain. Cross Creek and the seminars, the group sessions, the levels, the positive peer pressure, the support groups, the after care coaching and workshops are all meant to create a place of self-empowerment. I've never met a robot as some have said. Of course, I've heard a lot of robots on this form saying the same crap over and over again about programs being abusive.
My take is that all programs are there for the kids in one way or the other. The WWASPS programs are there for the parents and the kids and the extended family and even in the workplace.
SO c'mon - tell me how brainwashed and programmed I am. That's the best you can do when someone says something positive about Cross Creek or any of the WWASPS programs. Spout your crap about their programs being closed "because" of abuse, or that Lichfield contributes to politicians and that's why he stays in business. Tell the kids that did some deep soul/inner work they were really abused and what they did doesn't count.
The people of podunk Missouri seemed to believe the stories. One thing I found extremely weird is that these newspapers only reported the negatives and more than likely they only received negative (mostly anonymous) letters. Did they really care if anyone ever revived the campus? If they did they would have really done their homework and would have found quite the opposite to be true. They didn't care. Now that you've convinced the Boonvilleites that WWASPS is abusive you seem to have stepped up your "balls" a notch and are now saying you're going to go into towns where the programs are and put up billboards, write more letters and contribute to Rep Millers campaign even more.
Was Hinton really going to be a part of WWASPS? Isn't the Dundee Ranch open under a new name in Costa Rica and not part of WWASPS? That's a Lichfield, and I guarantee it is not part of WWASPS. Even the newspaper reports in podunk Missouri got sucked into it. So would I want a couple of people that didn't have WWASPS oversight in my town? Can't answer that.
I tend to think that the BILL sponsored by Miller won't really impact WWASPS anyway because they are not abusive. It will impact those that are operating like the Buffalo SOldiers or other rogue programs that are flying under the radar right now.
Thank you Perrigaud and Brown. You are my true heros. Look at what you are for yourselves now.
I guess if I'm addicted to something, being addicted to the truth isn't so bad.
-
On 2005-04-30 14:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What's amusing is how a successful graduate is being told her experience wasn't the way it was at all. Being told that our experience of the seminars was brainwashing in a negative sense. Being told that the kids at Cross Creek are abused even when there are other kids there that don't see it, staff, therapists, parents visiting, even the people delivering food don't see it. Being told there's some secret hiding place that kids are beaten, raped, starved and abused. Is that why they are at capacity with a waiting list now? Are the parents standing in line to put their child in harms way? Are they so uninformed that they don't read the propaganda and sensationalism and are blindly leading their child to a life of abuse?
The only abuse I see here is your abuse of people's tendency to be in fear of the unknown and planting seeds of doubt. Doubting themselves as parents, doubting there is help. The only thing kids that were pulled early learned is how to manipulate beyond what they knew they could get away with before. Now they've got mom and dad right where they want them. Get real. Do you really think a kid that was pulled because they say they were beaten or starved will actually admit it was a lie? They'll write letters, go on TV. go to any length to make it real to anyone who is gullible enough to believe them. And, unfortunately, there are too many that do. Are they getting some sense of power from this? They might even begin to believe it themselves. All the while there was never any physical evidence or verbal evidence by anyone that witnessed it. No won lawsuits.
What you call abusive treatment is no more than kids having to follow rules to get more privileges. It's starting at square one, back to the beginning before the kids starting making the rules.
What you call brainwashing is no more than a little re-wiring in a positive sense. Don't even compare this with Hitler, etc., They used whatever they did for their own gain. Cross Creek and the seminars, the group sessions, the levels, the positive peer pressure, the support groups, the after care coaching and workshops are all meant to create a place of self-empowerment. I've never met a robot as some have said. Of course, I've heard a lot of robots on this form saying the same crap over and over again about programs being abusive.
My take is that all programs are there for the kids in one way or the other. The WWASPS programs are there for the parents and the kids and the extended family and even in the workplace.
SO c'mon - tell me how brainwashed and programmed I am. That's the best you can do when someone says something positive about Cross Creek or any of the WWASPS programs. Spout your crap about their programs being closed "because" of abuse, or that Lichfield contributes to politicians and that's why he stays in business. Tell the kids that did some deep soul/inner work they were really abused and what they did doesn't count.
The people of podunk Missouri seemed to believe the stories. One thing I found extremely weird is that these newspapers only reported the negatives and more than likely they only received negative (mostly anonymous) letters. Did they really care if anyone ever revived the campus? If they did they would have really done their homework and would have found quite the opposite to be true. They didn't care. Now that you've convinced the Boonvilleites that WWASPS is abusive you seem to have stepped up your "balls" a notch and are now saying you're going to go into towns where the programs are and put up billboards, write more letters and contribute to Rep Millers campaign even more.
Was Hinton really going to be a part of WWASPS? Isn't the Dundee Ranch open under a new name in Costa Rica and not part of WWASPS? That's a Lichfield, and I guarantee it is not part of WWASPS. Even the newspaper reports in podunk Missouri got sucked into it. So would I want a couple of people that didn't have WWASPS oversight in my town? Can't answer that.
I tend to think that the BILL sponsored by Miller won't really impact WWASPS anyway because they are not abusive. It will impact those that are operating like the Buffalo SOldiers or other rogue programs that are flying under the radar right now.
Thank you Perrigaud and Brown. You are my true heros. Look at what you are for yourselves now.
I guess if I'm addicted to something, being addicted to the truth isn't so bad.
"
What a load of bullshit. Nothing but program catchpharases and bullshit. Nothing but accusations that the victims are lying.
Do you realize how sick you sound? Do you realize you are defending a destructive cult?
WWASP's gulags are the most abusive programs is existence today. And they will be shut down. You can count on it.
-
On 2005-04-30 14:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What's amusing is how a successful graduate is being told her experience wasn't the way it was at all. Being told that our experience of the seminars was brainwashing in a negative sense. Being told that the kids at Cross Creek are abused even when there are other kids there that don't see it, staff, therapists, parents visiting, even the people delivering food don't see it. Being told there's some secret hiding place that kids are beaten, raped, starved and abused. Is that why they are at capacity with a waiting list now? Are the parents standing in line to put their child in harms way? Are they so uninformed that they don't read the propaganda and sensationalism and are blindly leading their child to a life of abuse?
The only abuse I see here is your abuse of people's tendency to be in fear of the unknown and planting seeds of doubt. Doubting themselves as parents, doubting there is help. The only thing kids that were pulled early learned is how to manipulate beyond what they knew they could get away with before. Now they've got mom and dad right where they want them. Get real. Do you really think a kid that was pulled because they say they were beaten or starved will actually admit it was a lie? They'll write letters, go on TV. go to any length to make it real to anyone who is gullible enough to believe them. And, unfortunately, there are too many that do. Are they getting some sense of power from this? They might even begin to believe it themselves. All the while there was never any physical evidence or verbal evidence by anyone that witnessed it. No won lawsuits.
What you call abusive treatment is no more than kids having to follow rules to get more privileges. It's starting at square one, back to the beginning before the kids starting making the rules.
What you call brainwashing is no more than a little re-wiring in a positive sense. Don't even compare this with Hitler, etc., They used whatever they did for their own gain. Cross Creek and the seminars, the group sessions, the levels, the positive peer pressure, the support groups, the after care coaching and workshops are all meant to create a place of self-empowerment. I've never met a robot as some have said. Of course, I've heard a lot of robots on this form saying the same crap over and over again about programs being abusive.
My take is that all programs are there for the kids in one way or the other. The WWASPS programs are there for the parents and the kids and the extended family and even in the workplace.
SO c'mon - tell me how brainwashed and programmed I am. That's the best you can do when someone says something positive about Cross Creek or any of the WWASPS programs. Spout your crap about their programs being closed "because" of abuse, or that Lichfield contributes to politicians and that's why he stays in business. Tell the kids that did some deep soul/inner work they were really abused and what they did doesn't count.
The people of podunk Missouri seemed to believe the stories. One thing I found extremely weird is that these newspapers only reported the negatives and more than likely they only received negative (mostly anonymous) letters. Did they really care if anyone ever revived the campus? If they did they would have really done their homework and would have found quite the opposite to be true. They didn't care. Now that you've convinced the Boonvilleites that WWASPS is abusive you seem to have stepped up your "balls" a notch and are now saying you're going to go into towns where the programs are and put up billboards, write more letters and contribute to Rep Millers campaign even more.
Was Hinton really going to be a part of WWASPS? Isn't the Dundee Ranch open under a new name in Costa Rica and not part of WWASPS? That's a Lichfield, and I guarantee it is not part of WWASPS. Even the newspaper reports in podunk Missouri got sucked into it. So would I want a couple of people that didn't have WWASPS oversight in my town? Can't answer that.
I tend to think that the BILL sponsored by Miller won't really impact WWASPS anyway because they are not abusive. It will impact those that are operating like the Buffalo SOldiers or other rogue programs that are flying under the radar right now.
Thank you Perrigaud and Brown. You are my true heros. Look at what you are for yourselves now.
I guess if I'm addicted to something, being addicted to the truth isn't so bad.
"
You really do believe that all those hundreds of people who tell the world about the abuse they have endured in WWASP facilities are all part of some big conspiracy to bring you down, don't you?
It's frightening, just how far you've gone. Your critical thinking skills are destroyed. You internalise and rationalise any bit of bullshit they tell you. You are so, so sick.
-
"You really do believe that all those hundreds of people who tell the world about the abuse they have endured in WWASP facilities are all part of some big conspiracy to bring you down, don't you?
It's frightening, just how far you've gone. Your critical thinking skills are destroyed. You internalise and rationalise any bit of bullshit they tell you. You are so, so sick."
*****************
First, where are those hundreds of people around the world claiming, no I mean proving, abuse? Please don't point me in the direction of newspaper articles. They may count to you, but they don't to me. I know first hand the bias and bullshit that's in print. Please do point me to actual criminal charges being won against WWASPS for abuse. That's the only thing that will convince me it's widespread. Now, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't occur. That's ludicrious. People run these programs, and people make mistakes. I've heard of employees being fired because they chose to abuse their power, but it doesn't occur nearly as often as you'd like to lead some people to believe.
And darlin - THEY don't have to tell me anything. I know my experience, as long ago as 5 years up til now, has not shown me that any of the kids I've ever met were abused in any way. Of course, those kids graduated, and they tell the stories of how they would write letters telling their parents all kinds of ugly little things so they could come home and get back to being the rule makers in the home. They will all say they are glad their parents were strong enough to check it out and find that they were just pulling some of their same old crap.
I agree, my critical thinking skills are gone. You're the critic, not me.
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On 2005-04-30 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
""You really do believe that all those hundreds of people who tell the world about the abuse they have endured in WWASP facilities are all part of some big conspiracy to bring you down, don't you?
It's frightening, just how far you've gone. Your critical thinking skills are destroyed. You internalise and rationalise any bit of bullshit they tell you. You are so, so sick."
*****************
First, where are those hundreds of people around the world claiming, no I mean proving, abuse? Please don't point me in the direction of newspaper articles. They may count to you, but they don't to me. I know first hand the bias and bullshit that's in print. Please do point me to actual criminal charges being won against WWASPS for abuse. That's the only thing that will convince me it's widespread. Now, I'm not saying that abuse doesn't occur. That's ludicrious. People run these programs, and people make mistakes. I've heard of employees being fired because they chose to abuse their power, but it doesn't occur nearly as often as you'd like to lead some people to believe.
And darlin - THEY don't have to tell me anything. I know my experience, as long ago as 5 years up til now, has not shown me that any of the kids I've ever met were abused in any way. Of course, those kids graduated, and they tell the stories of how they would write letters telling their parents all kinds of ugly little things so they could come home and get back to being the rule makers in the home. They will all say they are glad their parents were strong enough to check it out and find that they were just pulling some of their same old crap.
I agree, my critical thinking skills are gone. You're the critic, not me.
"
It's useless to argue with you or try to reason with you, because you can't think. All you do is repeat the same old bullshit. They did a good job on your, darlin. You are dead. You just haven't noticed it yet.
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On 2005-04-30 14:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
Being told that our experience of the seminars was brainwashing in a negative sense.
Are you implying that there is a positive form of brainwashing? :???: :???:
Being told that the kids at Cross Creek are abused even when there are other kids there that don't see it, staff, therapists, parents visiting, even the people delivering food don't see it.
But other kids, ex-staff, parents of former clients etc HAVE and ARE speaking up about it. YOU are the ones not listening.
Are they so uninformed that they don't read the propaganda and sensationalism and are blindly leading their child to a life of abuse?
No, they're either lazy, gullible or are so completely scared by their kids behavior (which more often than not is fairly typical of teens trying to find their autonomy) that they buy into all the fear mongering bullshit that WWASPS spits out.
Doubting themselves as parents.
This is ONE thing we can agree on. They need to just trust their own parental instincts instead of turning them over to a fucking cult!!
The only thing kids that were pulled early learned is how to manipulate beyond what they knew they could get away with before. Now they've got mom and dad right where they want them.
More of the "they're druggies that will say anything to get back to using" bullshit.
They'll write letters, go on TV. go to any length to make it real to anyone who is gullible enough to believe them. And, unfortunately, there are too many that do. Are they getting some sense of power from this? They might even begin to believe it themselves.
Holy shit!! That's exactly how I see you WWASPies!! Scare the crap out of a few more parents with the 'deadinsaneorinjail' mantra!
All the while there was never any physical evidence or verbal evidence by anyone that witnessed it.
So you're just completely discounting the people who say they HAVE witnessed or experienced abuse??
What you call abusive treatment is no more than kids having to follow rules to get more privileges.
Depends on what your definition of a "privilege" is.
It's starting at square one, back to the beginning before the kids starting making the rules.
If the kids truly are making all the rules then the parent is slacking in their job!
What you call brainwashing is no more than a little re-wiring in a positive sense.
As a good friend has put it...there ain't no pretty way to brainwash/rewire/break a kid. NONE. ALL of it leaves lasting damage.
Don't even compare this with Hitler, etc., They used whatever they did for their own gain.
Ah, to be so young and naive again.
Cross Creek and the seminars, the group sessions, the levels, the positive peer pressure, the support groups, the after care coaching and workshops are all meant to create a place of self-empowerment.
Actually, they do just the opposite. They teach and preach powerlessness and dependency on groups/steps/creedos/scripts etc.
I've never met a robot as some have said.
Take a long, hard look in the mirror.
Of course, I've heard a lot of robots on this form saying the same crap over and over again about programs being abusive.
I don't think any of us has ever said the EVERY single person was abused but you seem quite comfortable in stating unequivocably that NO abuse occurred.....PERIOD. Hmmm.
I tend to think that the BILL sponsored by Miller won't really impact WWASPS anyway because they are not abusive.
That would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.
None of Nature's landscapes are ugly so long as they are wild.
-- John Muir
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Perri, it's easy to continue to believe something entirely false. All you have to do is disregard the evidence. That's what you're doing. Never mind the newspapers, how about all of the WWASP facilities that have been closed down? How'd that happen? According to Program dogma, they got the results they asked for, right?
But there's a double standard, isn't there? When hundreds of different people make the same complaints consistently, year after year, WWASP says they're flawed, failures, disgruntled ex students, parents, employees or mysteriously corrupt journalists. Everybody in the world has a grudge, but WWASP is just okey dokey.
Why doesn't Ken Kay take responsibility for the results he's getting? How is it that when something bad happens in your life it's your fault but when something bad happens to WWASP it's not their fault?
There is something feeble and contemptible about a man who cannot face life without the help of comfortable myths.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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Cayo Huesto - When did you become an expert with personal knowledge of Cross Creek or WWASPS? Seems to me you had a bad experience and since you did do you think that everyone must be having the same experience?
I don't care who is speaking up about it, until they can prove they are being honest, it's just like anything else I read. Innocent until proven guilty.
Thing is I know I'm telling the truth about never, ever experiencing abuse.
I do have an agenda. My agenda is to speak my truth so that parents who happen to pick up a sensationalized newspaper article will be smart enough to talk to other parents, kids, staff, local law enforcement before they make a decision on whether to get help, anywhere. This forum is not just for WWASPS haters, it for program critics. A lot of the WWASPS propaganda seems to come from competitors. That's sick.
Oh, BTW, no one ever had to tell me my kid would be dead or in jail if I didn't get help. I knew that well before I ever picked up the phone. ANd yes, I am psychic.
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On 2005-04-30 15:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Cayo Huesto - When did you become an expert with personal knowledge of Cross Creek or WWASPS?
Where did you see me claim to be an expert?
Seems to me you had a bad experience and since you did do you think that everyone must be having the same experience?
From everything I've read about Cross Creek AND WWASPS (and that includes what you and Perri write), they are run very similar to Straight and the possible connection between the two has been brought up before.
Thing is I know I'm telling the truth about never, ever experiencing abuse.
Well great!! I'm truly glad you were never abused or witnessed abuse. That doesn't mean that others have not.
This forum is not just for WWASPS haters, it for program critics.
This forum is for everyone....critic, supporter...everyone.
A lot of the WWASPS propaganda seems to come from competitors. That's sick.
I assure you that's not the case with me.
Oh, BTW, no one ever had to tell me my kid would be dead or in jail if I didn't get help. I knew that well before I ever picked up the phone. ANd yes, I am psychic.
and that is exactly what made you a prime target for the Troubled Parent Industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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Antigen -- what about the WWASPS program that closed?
Brightway and Czech Republic were before my time, so I can't say what caused that. Only the newspapers know for sure. :wink:
Samoa, Dundee, Cancun and Casa by the Sea did not close because of abuse. The newspapers would like you to believe that because of the wording - closed 'amid' allegations of abuse. Hell, if any program closed it would be 'amid' allegations of abuse. All programs with troubled teens have allegations of abuse. Name one that doesn't? I have been around long enough to know kids that were at all of these schools. Even the Samoa students four years later say the worst part of being there were the sand fleas, like the midwestern chiggers, are sneaky little buggers! LOL!
Sorry to disagree with you - I'm sure you'll come back with something else that fits your intention to brainwash.
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On 2005-04-30 15:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
Sorry to disagree with you - I'm sure you'll come back with something else that fits your intention to brainwash.
We do the brainwashing at SIBS. And honey, it doesn't come cheap! What, you think you're getting a freebie just by using the forum? Get real! If you want the BDSM service, you're just gonna have to pay for it like everybody else!
:rofl: Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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On 2005-04-30 15:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Antigen -- what about the WWASPS program that closed?
Brightway and Czech Republic were before my time, so I can't say what caused that. Only the newspapers know for sure. :wink:
Samoa, Dundee, Cancun and Casa by the Sea did not close because of abuse. The newspapers would like you to believe that because of the wording - closed 'amid' allegations of abuse. Hell, if any program closed it would be 'amid' allegations of abuse. All programs with troubled teens have allegations of abuse. Name one that doesn't? I have been around long enough to know kids that were at all of these schools. Even the Samoa students four years later say the worst part of being there were the sand fleas, like the midwestern chiggers, are sneaky little buggers! LOL!
Sorry to disagree with you - I'm sure you'll come back with something else that fits your intention to brainwash.
"
How much money do you get for sending kids off to be abused, tortured and brainwashed at WWASP's gulags? Looks like you're looknig for additional income, judging by your trolling in these forums.
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On 2005-04-30 15:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
A lot of the WWASPS propaganda seems to come from competitors. That's sick.
then....
Cayo Huesto - When did you become an expert with personal knowledge of Cross Creek or WWASPS?
So then critics who claim expertese need not be believed and people who don't claim expertise need not be believed either. That covers all critics, doesn't it? Very handy!
:roll: I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
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Why does it have to one or other? I don't believe the critics and I don't believe the newspapers/media if it's in direct conflict with what I've known for all these years.
Oh, and trolling? Of course, let me give you may name and referral code and/ or my website. If I were trolling for dollars, I would have done this a LONG time ago like PURE does on a semi regular basis.
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On 2005-04-30 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why does it have to one or other? I don't believe the critics and I don't believe the newspapers/media if it's in direct conflict with what I've known for all these years.
So you just don't believe anyone who says they were abused because YOU weren't abused???? Interesting.
Oh, and trolling? Of course, let me give you may name and referral code and/ or my website. If I were trolling for dollars, I would have done this a LONG time ago like PURE does on a semi regular basis. "
Things are suddenly becoming a little more clear.A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special
--Nelson Mandela
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On 2005-04-30 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
Why does it have to one or other? I don't believe the critics and I don't believe the newspapers/media if it's in direct conflict with what I've known for all these years.
For many centuries, evreybody "knew" the world was flat. We also "knew" that most disease was caused by bad blood, which could be leeched out to cure whatever ails ya. Everybody "knew" that NSA stood for No Such Agency, right? ( http://www.nsa.gov/ (http://www.nsa.gov/) in case you're still not up to speed on that one)
What do you "know" about the Program? Really, what and how do you know it and how is it that so damned many different people "know" something completely opposite of what you "know"?
May your days be joyously challenging and your words artfully true.
--Ginger Warbis
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That's the beauty of free will and thinking. I know what my experience is. You know what yours is in your program. It's perception. I didn't say I knew it all. We're not talking about the world being flat, we're talking about putting out of control teens in behavior mod programs.
Just like I don't believe everything I read in the newspapers unless I know it to be true, I don't believe everything I read on here either. Just like you have the option of not believing anything I say.
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On 2005-04-30 17:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's the beauty of free will and thinking. I know what my experience is. You know what yours is in your program. It's perception. I didn't say I knew it all. We're not talking about the world being flat, we're talking about putting out of control teens in behavior mod programs.
Just like I don't believe everything I read in the newspapers unless I know it to be true, I don't believe everything I read on here either. Just like you have the option of not believing anything I say.
"
I've said that I believe Perri wasn't physically abused. I have nothing to contradict her word. You say you weren't abused. I don't have anything to directly contradict you, but YOU..OTOH..feel completely comfortable stating that there IS NO ABUSE at WWASP or Cross Creek.
Interesting again.Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
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Listen to my words -
I did not say that no abuse occurs at Cross Creek or any program out there in the big wide world.
I said that Cross Creek is not abusive.
There is a difference.
A person can work at, say, Cross Creek. That person can do something to abuse someone, and will get caught and fired. Wish those kinds of people were never hired, but some of them have hidden it or never got caught.
The program is not abusive, however, there are those that think it is because they had to follow rules, or do things they didn't like. like earn the right to use a razor to shave. SO that's up for debate.
You may not want to agree with this, but if a kid is getting ready to hit my kid, I'd want the staff to remove them the safest way possible and if that means restraint, then so be it. I've read where some think it would be just A okay to to let the kid do whatever they wanted to without restraining them. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I don't consider stopping that kid from hurting someone abusive or abuse if done properly.
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On 2005-04-30 18:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Listen to my words -
Don't fucking patronize me asswipe.
You may not want to agree with this, but if a kid is getting ready to hit my kid, I'd want the staff to remove them the safest way possible and if that means restraint, then so be it. I've read where some think it would be just A okay to to let the kid do whatever they wanted to without restraining them. Let's just agree to disagree on this one. I don't consider stopping that kid from hurting someone abusive or abuse if done properly. "
Depends on why the kid was going to hit yours in the first place. Where I was people got restrained for making eye contact with someone they weren't supposed to, for not writing MIs (moral inventories), for asking to leave or call HRS, for not remembering the rules correctly, not remembering the Chain of Command correctly...if we weren't sitting up straight in our chairs we got knuckles jabbed into our spines....kids hit some of the kids who were doing the jabbing. If your kid was one of the ones jabbing his knuckles into my back I'd DAMN sure hit him now. I was too scared to back then.
So are you telling me that ALL kids who got restrained just got up and tried to hit someone? No provocation? They were just sitting there one minute and the next got violent??A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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Sorry about the listen to my words stuff -
Would someone just all of a sudden want to hit my kid without provocation? More than likely not. So what if he provoked it, he could do that very well, in fact. Doesn't mean that he needed his ass kicked by another student. Though, he probably would have kicked ass just as hard.
Physical fights are not allowed and restraining to stop it is okay in my view if the dear boys didn't stop on their own.
They don't accept mentally ill kids, so the possibility of a kid just all of a sudden turning violent is unusual.
I know of a girl several years ago, upper level, who just freaked out one night and stabbed a girl in her room. THe girl lived, but they have done a lot of changing since then. They require psych evals now before they are admitted. I don't know much about this particular girl and why no one ever saw she was capable of this. It took everyone by surprise.
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On 2005-04-30 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry about the listen to my words stuff -
Would someone just all of a sudden want to hit my kid without provocation? More than likely not. So what if he provoked it, he could do that very well, in fact. Doesn't mean that he needed his ass kicked by another student. Though, he probably would have kicked ass just as hard.
Physical fights are not allowed and restraining to stop it is okay in my view if the dear boys didn't stop on their own.
They don't accept mentally ill kids, so the possibility of a kid just all of a sudden turning violent is unusual.
Yes, they do. They just say they don't. Cross Creek in particular is often presented as a "treatment center" (while other facilities are described by some other title). Why don't you do some reading about wht's going on in these places-- and no, I don't mean WWASP's propangada-- and you'll see that there are many mentally ill kids trapped in WWASP's gulags.
I know of a girl several years ago, upper level, who just freaked out one night and stabbed a girl in her room. THe girl lived, but they have done a lot of changing since then. They require psych evals now before they are admitted. I don't know much about this particular girl and why no one ever saw she was capable of this. It took everyone by surprise.
I don't believe that they require psych evals. They just take anyone, as long as the family can pay-- as they always have done.
But I'm not surprised at all that the girl behaved in this way. The program pushes these children to such extreme, inflicts so much pain and abuse, it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that some of them break down.
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On 2005-04-30 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry about the listen to my words stuff -
Would someone just all of a sudden want to hit my kid without provocation? More than likely not. So what if he provoked it, he could do that very well, in fact. Doesn't mean that he needed his ass kicked by another student. Though, he probably would have kicked ass just as hard.
Physical fights are not allowed and restraining to stop it is okay in my view if the dear boys didn't stop on their own.
They don't accept mentally ill kids, so the possibility of a kid just all of a sudden turning violent is unusual.
I know of a girl several years ago, upper level, who just freaked out one night and stabbed a girl in her room. THe girl lived, but they have done a lot of changing since then. They require psych evals now before they are admitted. I don't know much about this particular girl and why no one ever saw she was capable of this. It took everyone by surprise. "
ANYONE is "capable of this" if you put them under enough stress.
Anyone.
It is telling to me that you blame the state of the girl ("this particular girl...was capable...") instead of blaming the extreme psychological stress of the seminars, which this "upper level" girl had certainly gone through, which--according to the parents that posted their time in the parent seminars were done by persons unlicensed in psychology or psychiatry, with no licensed persons on site, with no safety plan, with no pre-screening, and used extreme (in my opinion) coercive persuasion to destabilize the subject's worldview into one in which there is no right and no wrong and just "what works"---that the end justifies the means.
When you do that to people, you have a certain percentage of psychiatric casualties.
Not all of the psychiatric casualties are merely dangerous to themselves.
When you plant deadly nightshade, you shouldn't be surprised when wheat isn't what comes up out of the ground.
No amount of "prescreening" will weed out the psychiatric casualties caused by the kinds of extreme psychological stress caused in a coercive persuasion environment *after* the kid walks in the door.
In my opinion, based on the parent accounts of the first Discovery seminar that had a link posted here recently, the seminars use the types of techniques proven (repeatedly) to cause a certain percentage of serious and dangerous psychiatric casualties.
It doesn't surprise me in the least that the child who did this was an "upper level" and hence had already been subjected to several of the seminars and who knows what all else.
Timoclea
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On 2005-04-30 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
They don't accept mentally ill kids, so the possibility of a kid just all of a sudden turning violent is unusual.
So then you don't believe Perrigaud and Amanda? Cause they both describe themselves as having been deeply depressed, near suicidal when they went to CCM.
If the WWASP treatment is not intended for mentally ill kids, then who is it intended for? Kids w/ no problems? That doesn't even make sense.
And how do you feel about the alleged adults in charge tackling a kid to the floor, not for violence or threatening violence against anyone at all, but merely for attempting to reach an out of order pay phone?
Perri admits that that's not at all out of line w/ her experience of CCM. When I asked her about it she said something like "Well, we were on lock down, so too bad for that kid."
Do you think that's right? To tackle a kid for trying to get to a phone? Do you think it's therapeutic in some way?
The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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The children should have access to the phone. Even prisoners get to use the phone once in awhile to make collect calls. These facilities are much worse than prisons. They are not therapeutic. They are much to abusive and punitive to be "treating" children with depressioin.
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Hmm. Hope I come out of the evil shadows of WWASP? Don't. Save your pity for those who want and need it. I don't want it nor do I need it.
Never have and never will.
The proof is in how I live my life. :rofl: Happy, successful, peaceful...it's nice.
Antigen,
Seminars? Perception. It's about how you perceive and experience things. What I may find fun may be horrible to someone else. That's why I speak of my experience and not others. No, I don't think of it as abuse.
Program apologist...call me what you wish. CCM and other "cults" are going down? Well ok. So are the parenting skills. As long as people keep getting lazy (not to say all parents who send their kids are lazy) there will be an industry such as this.
I pray you all will be able to seperate the true b/s from the false. Good luck.
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On 2005-05-01 15:44:00, RN on Board wrote:
"The children should have access to the phone. Even prisoners get to use the phone once in awhile to make collect calls. These facilities are much worse than prisons. They are not therapeutic. They are much to abusive and punitive to be "treating" children with depressioin. "
RN, here's the thing. This is why I'm so incredibly skeptical of new regulation actually doing any good.
People often say the Programs should not be located in remote areas. Straight was right downtown. So was The Seed. Just that you'd get tackled if you tried to walk out and hunted down by former inmates, staff and even police if you snuck out. There were phones in the office and in every host home. Just that you'd get tackled if you tried to grab one and we were locked in or, at the least, had motion detectors on the doors so you couldn't get to a phone after everyone fell asleep. At some point, they even hung signs all over the building stating our rights as clients, including the right to call HRS (Floridas CPS in those days) to report abuse. What a joke! Sure, go ahead and call, once you make 4th phase and get to go to school or work. No one will believe you and you'll be started over and frozen on day one if you try.
The only good that I can see coming out of all of these efforts at regulation is that it does kick up some interest and discussion. People in general need to understand and believe these kids.Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic
for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has
happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to
the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail,
there will be anarchy throughout the world.
Daniel Webster
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Just scanning the posts and I wanted to write a quick retort.
Now about Perrigaud getting money for stating her opinions and beleifs. Thats pretty funny. We are good friends and she has better things to do with her time than be on the WWASP payroll. She has a real job and makes bank actually so she dosnt need WWASPs dirty money. She is just trying to get yall to look at it from her perspective. Just because you dont agree with her dosnt mean shes here to make money. Thats a pretty rude thing to say with no evidence and no actually knowledge of Perrigaud or who she is. So lets drop the whole Perri is on the WWASP payroll because you are wrong.
Since being on this forum, my perspective on WWASP has changed. However I did not experience abuse at CCM while i was there. However I was there for 15 months and before then and after then there very well could have been abuse. The program needs great reform and needs to get new management by a person or persons who actually care about the kids they are helping.
With the seminars, my facilitator was great. Jan was her name. Anyone have complaints about her, because I would be supprised. David Gilcrese sucks booty and needs to go jump in a lake. Im sure no one disagrees there. But I honestly believe depending on the staffers and the facilitator the seminar expereince can be good. Now I never heard anyone get called a slut or a bitch or a coward or any name calling in my seminars wiht Jan. However, with Lou, David, and Bill, there was some. I think Jan really cares about the kids she is helping and it makes a big difference. And if the staffers are bastards and are trying to use their power to harm a kid in a seminar then that is abuse and should be stopped. But the staffers in my seminars were not like that. It is very shocking to me to hear about the stories about CCM. Considering I never expereinced that it is lame to know that CCM is operating like that.
Staff members are another issue. A staff member who is hired simply to control kids is wrong. Many of my staff members were great. I was good friends with them. Some were not great but got fired or quit shortly after they were hired. I think they need a way strict way to hire staff members. Plus I think it should be a requirement that the staff memeber is getting the job because they want to help, not control. The girl who had her hair cut off you know? Nothing even similar to that happened while i was there. The program is constantly changing though. Staff members are hired and fired and therapists quit and new ones are hired, rules are always changing, seminars are changing, ect. But I can say in the short time I was there, I did not expereince abuse. I did not feel, nor do I feel now, that i was harmed by the program. But I can say that others were harmed by it and (you will like this Ginger) that being the case, I cannot support a program that would allow such things. It needs to be shut down. And a new one that is reformed and more helpful and not corrupt needs to be built in its place so that kids that need the help can get it. Im sorry guys but you are wrong about one thing. Paretns are not always responsible for the way a kid turns out. Blaming it all on the parents is an easy answer for you but it simply is just not accurate. Hell Geneticists and Psychologists still argue about if a person turns out the way they do because of nature or nurture, so it woudl be impossible for oyu to say a kid turns out a certain way because of the parents. Most the time the paretns do their best and the kid still turns out a certain way. And not all kids just "grow out of it". I know MANY who have not and many adults who have not either. So some kids yes need more help than others and you cant deny that. So I guess my final points will be
-The program is corrupt and needs to be shut down and revised.
-Despite the corruption, I was not abused mentally, physically, verbally, ect.
-Discovery and Focus helped me.
-I believe the abuse and feel for those kids, however I feel it did help me, especially with my family. Now wether or not it was worth it just because it helped me, thats just the facts.
-I appreciate all the knowledge of the program posted here and I appreciate those who are willing to be open to hearing me out. I also appreciate those who can listen and give excellent information and be patient and kind. Ginger, especially you. Well, pretty much only you and sometimes Tim and others, so thanks.
Amanda
"A man may learn wisdom, even from a foe."
Aristophanes
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Money? Shit I'd be pretty wealthy. Sorry such is not the case.
What else will you come up with?
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My only question for you Perri is: if you have inner happiness in your life now why are you always sarcastic and hateful on these forums?
I honestly have never met anyone who claimed "true" happiness and was then so angry. Or is this your definition of happiness? B/c I can't imagine Gahndi saying "shit is that all you can come up with." Or Mother Teresa "You all are a bunch of liars...I know what I saw."
But I can imagine a program counselor saying any of this above...Funny I initially gave consideration to your posts. I often find people who have gone through these programs very caustic in nature, seemingly no difference with you.
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Thanks, Amanda, for your kind words. I don't think I'm the only one around here who's got any respect or compassion. But it's a touchy subject for some and just incomprehensible to others.
I understand why Perri's pissed, too. On the one hand. Frankly, I find it a little annoying when ppl claim I'm brainwashed or brainwashing others (no wait, that's not annoying, that's ammusing... at any rate...)
But I do think you're "brainwashed", Perri. By that I mean that, through the proccess of the Program, you have become convinced of certain things that simply are not true and do not make stand to reason. For example, Perri, you posted a description of teenagers that I'd almost like to see you try and deliver in person to my 15yo's daughter and her buddies down at the local kick-boxing gym. And there was another post about how you "knew" that if you used illegal drugs you'd land up in jail. Well, that's not sensible. Not all teenagers are as you describe and, certainly, the chances of landing up in jail for illegal drugs are slim to none. Everybody knows that.
I don't think you're lying. I think you believe what you say. None the less, it simply isn't true. Doesn't mean your dumb or anything less than anybody. Just that the Program is very, very effective at implanting false beliefs.
Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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Anon,
I usually dont defend Perri on the forum. Shes an adult and is capable of defending herself. But in this particular instance (and the one about her on the WWASP payroll) something needs to be said.
Perri, yes, can be very angry on the forum. Like Ginger said, it can be angering for one to hear something said about them (like your brainwashed) that they feel is absolutly not true. Most of the time she is just defending herself. I know her very well. Ashley is one of the kindest and nice (almost too nice) people Ive ever met. She can be very selfless and very giving. Shes a great friend, always calls you back and never flakes out on you unless it is a true emergency. It is rare to find a person as positive and happy as she is. Simply because the topic of this forum gets her heated is no reason to judge her whole life. Soem people on this forum say things that drive me insane or whatever. But I dont know them and would never say they are lying about who they are. It is just plain wrong. Maybe asking her more about why she gets so angry about this woudl be more tactical and more effective than telling her she isnt happy like she says she is or that she isnt honest abou that just because of her passion about her beliefs. This is an important subject to her and it makes sense she gets so angry about it. She has good things to say and valid opinions just like every one else.
Ginger,
One thing you said in the most recent post got me thinking. It is true that alot of people do illegal stuf and dont get caught. But would you not agree that if you carry on with that same behavior later into life, that you greatly increase your chances of getting caught? I mean just because a kid dosnt get arrested for that stuff as a teen doesnt mean they wont later on into 20s and 30s. And then the consequences are harsher and if youve stared a family or a life, it can cause it all to fall apart. Its certainly complicated because on the one hand, I believe people who deal and smoke pot shoudl not get punished because I feel it shoudl be legalized. On the other hand, it is illegal no matter how I feel about it and getting arrested for it can harm your life. When my husband got in trouble for a pot charge a while ago and had to go to jail, spend over 1,500.00 on court fines, piss testes, ect, and had to do months of therapy, it was devestating and hard for us to survive. I was very pregnant at the time and if my Madre hadnt helped me out, I woudlnt have made it. Not to mention the mental strain it puts on a family and the person who is in jail. It was painfull for me to only see him once a week and no physical contact, not even a hug. ANd it was painful to have to see him go through that. And (not in my case but in others) it is painful for the child that has to deal with a parent or parents involved with the criminal justice system. And its true that not all kids will do that. Not all kids will continue wiht the same mentality as in the teens. But alot of people carry that baggade into their 20s and 30s and destroy others lives with their addictive and lazy behavior. Sure a person may not end up in jail or lose thier job or their home or their kids. But a negative and rude attitude can harm a person just like those things can. And that is the main point. A person may be addicted to something, but a positive and general good attitude can make all the difference. But if you dont learn a different way to think, then most likely you carry hang ups and fears and insecurities into 20s and beyond. so I guess my point (Im sure oyu were hoping I woudl get ot one:) is that just because a kid fears they woudl get in trouble wiht the law because of their actions dosnt always mean they are thinking short term about it. In my case I was thinking EVENTUALLY I would end up in jail or dead. I didnt know if it woudl happen the next day or 5 years form now or 15 or whatever. I just knew that if I kept doing what I was doing and thinking how I was thinking and living how I was living, there woudl not be a good ending to that story. I guess why I am ok wiht going to the program was because it wasnt all crap. The things that changed my perspective for the better I appreciate. Thats why I think that certain things about it make sense. Alot does not and needs to change. But just as all life, there is a silver lining in the dark cloud, you know? I dont ignore the bad abou tit because that woudl be ignorant and thats not who I am. I hate injustice and I hate people who get power and money by harming others. Its wrong. And MUCH about the program was wrong. But to say I NEVER learned anything at all that was worth while is just not true. as Peter A Lea put it, "Darkness makes us aware of the stars, and so when dark hours arise, they may hold a bright and lovly thing we might never have known otherwise."
Amanda
"Should you sheild the canyon from the windstorm, you would never see the beauty of their carvings."
-Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
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Caustic? Hmm. Ok. Im listening to how everyone perceives me. Angry? Hmm. Not anymore. Haven't been for a long long time.
If I used drugs I'd be in jail. Hmm don't remember saying that. Where did I say that? I don't use drugs and never have. Not my style. Sure I tried them but never went back twice.
Jail? I was on my way there. I was already on diversion and about to be sued for harming someone. Juvi was not fun either.
Ghandi or Mother Teresa. Yes thanks for putting them in the same paragraph. Interesting.
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Perri, I see now that it was Amanda that said that about the drugs and jail. And I agree it's unfair to compare anyone to Ghandi or Mother Theresa. For one thing, none of us meet that standard. For another, word has it that even they never fully lived up to their celebrity images. And, certainly, nobody who's arguing w/ you does either.
But I still think it's unlikely that you would view teenagers the same way if you hadn't been through the Program. And my guess is that you might have been better off facing the actual consequences for whatever you did to harm someone than dodging that for 'treatment' by WWASP.
And that really is a very important issue these days. There's a huge movement in public policy to provide this same form of 'treatment' to people convicted of various statutory and even real crimes. I think it's a hoodwink. I think a whole lot of people plead out and take the mandatory treatment thinking it's better than jail. But what actually happens is that they have a PO looking over their shoulder and, often times, they wind up w/ more serious charges than the original issue, more jail time and other obligations than they would have had and an added mindfuck on top of it all.
Amanda, you're absolutely right. Most kids engage in excessive behavior at some point. And most kids learn self control; sometimes through some hard knocks, others by observation. But, at least in my generation, very few actually swear off of all illicit drug use. I know people who will smoke a join if you offer AND it's not a high risk situation (they're not about to drive, it's a private place, ect.) And I even know people who will still, even at age 40, cop some coke for a special occasion. But those ones are few and far between. Most ppl I know who did coke as teenagers found it either unmanagable or just unpleasant and just put it down pretty quickly.
But very, very few people actually get busted. Even if they do, most just pay a fine anyway, unless they commit a contempt of cop violation or make some obvious mistake like trying to make a living at it or getting too involved w/ those who do.
Personally, I'm very conflicted about that. Most of the people I knew as a young woman who were trying to turn a buck at drug dealing were otherwise decent people. So when my kids' friends decide to try their hand at that (if I find out about it, anyway), I do my best to explain how the game is rigged and why it'll never pay off. I wouldn't want my kids to be the kind of people who cut good people out of their lives just because they do a few foolish things. But, at the same time, I don't want my kids getting dragged into untold drama, either. It's realy a dicey situation.
At the bottom of it, most kids seem to understand very well that the law is wrong, even though the intentions behind it are on the mark. But they have a hard time seperating the natural consequences of their own behavior from the contrived consequences put on them. Is it fair that one kid skates by till they're mature enough to get serious about life while another gets busted, gets a conviction, loses their drivers license education funding, etc. and is set back by all that by the time they mature that much?
I don't think it's fair at all. And I certainly think it's a dirty trick to "treat" kids for bucking unjust laws. Someone introduced Ghandi into this discussion. Well Ghandi was a rebel, an outlaw. He broke unjust laws and encouraged others to do the same. The most famous act of mass civil disobedience that he organized was the freelance making and selling of salt. Under our laws, it's OK to go to a shrink and get permission to purchase Xanex from the pharma co's(which is the most popular legal drug among ppl who find cannabis to be therapeutic) But it's illegal to bypass the pharma monopoly by growing a plant either for personal use or for profit. What's the diff? I can't say these kids are wrong in what they're doing on ethical grounds. And I hate telling them to suck it up; it's just demoralizing. So what's an old broad to do?
The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
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The point of the Ghandi and Mother Teresa reference was more figurative...ie "I have true inner peace". Nevermind, having to explain it to you only makes it more ironic.
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Amanda- I know you did not like thinking where you were going, if you kept "living like..living, thinking like...thiking, doing what..doing".
But part of getting older is that people *change* what they are doing, how they are thinking, ect... It's only natural.
When I left PCS, I was worse off than when I went in. I was quite angry at my parents, but hesitant to let them know that, for fear of being sent back. I had all the symptoms of PTSD, but wasn't able to articulate on it.
And I began to hang out with a very seedy and negative group of people. I had an abusive boyfriend. I stopped going to school in 12th grade. I guess I thought that no one else would want to hang out with me, considering where I had just been.
But, suprise, suprise! I grew out of it! I finished high school and college, I began living in my own apartment at age 19, I have an excellent boyfriend and good friends and a cool job, and I'm very happy. I eventually lost the 30lbs I gained at PCS.
Thats not to say that I don't do anything risque. I enjoy a few cocktails, might smoke pot once a year, or if I have a stomache flu, I have been know to take my clothes off, after a night of dancing, and swim in a fountain. But thats okay!
I am a responsible, contributing member of society, *in spite* of going to PCS, not *because* of it.
Anyway, I've seen plenty of kids who could have been construed as "troubled" as teenagers, kids who did worse things than I ever did. These kids never got sent to programs, and most of them are fine now.
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Anonymous I know what you meant. It's not about not understanding. It's more about the way you went about saying what you were trying to say. Inner peace is quite wonderful. It shows up in the little and big things that happen in life. Does that mean I am always docile, soft spoken, and not passionate. Not at all. What it does mean is that I don't live in shame or guilt. I own up to my mistakes, learn from them, move on, and don't repeat them. Adulthood is nice. I still make my mistakes. Hateful? No that is something I am not. Hate is a very strong word.
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It's true that people change as time goes on. I know a very strait laced minister - father of four. I was surprised when he admitted that he had been a heavy drug user and had even (to his great regret) taken his girlfriend in for an abortion. So - people do change. The teenage years are a time to find out who you are and rebel and break away from parents. I also believe that most people have done something they could be arrested for - So Peri - you aren't that much different than anyone else. The program may have helped you - but time also help us grow and change for the better. Experience is often the best teacher and sometimes - if we are wise - we learn best from our mistakes.
In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat
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Dear Bandit1978
Like I always say, I am very impressed by people who can simply change without help and simply stop doing idiotic things and grow up. Sorry to say i was not like that. I needed and still need help from others to help keep me on the right track. I make my own choices, but sometimes I need to bounce ideas and talk to people about myself to get a different perspective on things. I am not a person who can always figure stuff out on my own. Sometimes I am doing something that may seem ok to me until I talk to others I trust and respect aobut it and find out something new and different that changes my perspective on it. And I dont think there is anything wrong with that.
True I have known kids who grew out of being crazy. They are fine now. But I know more kids from High school that are doing abou the same or worse than kids who are doing better. Do you agree that when you have a certain way of dealing wiht something, you use that again and again until you learn a new or better way of dealing wiht it? Sometimes kids never learn a new or better way to deal wiht stuff so they use the same old unhealthy ways of dealing wiht life. Sometimes you just need a little push in the right direction to change. I dont think all kids who are making unhealthy choices need to have some form of extreme help to get "better". Im just saying I think you are mistaken about the fact that most kids grow out of it. Sure they may not do drugs or whatever later in life, but a negative mindframe is more harmful I feel than drugs. Negativity can cause health problems, problems wiht relationships, and personal problems. I feel the main problems with many of the peopel I know who never grew out of being a teenager is they still live in this dramatic negative mindset. They always find SOMETHING to complain about, something to make fun of, something to start drama about. It is really tiring and draining to be around someone like that. Therefore I feel drugs and promiscuous behavior are merely what kids who dont have self esteem and who dont have trust and comfort in their lives turn to. I feel it woudl help many of those kids to at least try therapy or whatever they want to gain a new perspective that fits them or to see life isnt a bitch and then oyu die. To see life holds so much greatness and opportunity and wonderful stuff.
Amanda
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Dear Amanda,
You sound pretty mature for your age (you are 18?) I'm glad that you are able to make sense of your experience at the program. When I got out of Provo Canyon School, I was kind of like Whoa, what the hell was that all that for??
At your age, one would expect you still need some guidance. I'm 26, and I still need guidance at times. No one expects that you will always know how to do everything. There will be times when you need others to help you to figure things out, like when you start a new job, or have a baby or something.
But when you say that "most people don't grow out of it", I have to say I have found that to be wrong. Just give it some time. You and your peers are still teenagers. If you go to college and get a good job, I think you will find that most people had to deal with some serious issues as adolescents. Seriously, this builds character.
My boyfriend left home as a teenager, against his mothers wishes. He is a doctor now. Some people we work with *still* do drugs...the difference is that, when you are older, you think differently. It is difficult for me to put into words exactly how you think differently. You just do. Maybe you are motivated by different things. But most people are able to advance in their careers and make smart decisions and be responsible *and* also have fun and drink and go to parties or whatever your vice may be.
Negativity is a different issue completely. You are right- it is bad for your health, it is the root of many problems, and it prevents progress from being made. It is an emotion based in fear, not love. If the program helped you to recognize negativity and rid your self of it, than thats great. But most programs seem to invoke so much negativity, and they claim that this leads to a positive outcome. You may find later on that being exposed to such negativity (which you do not dispute you were exposed to, correct?) has had lasting negative effects on your person and spirit. It's like a radioactive bomb. You may not get hit by the bomb directly, but if you are in the vicinity, you will be exposed to the energy it radiates.
There were many times at PCS when I felt okay and even enjoyed being around the people who were there (staff and students). I guess that would make sense, because people learn coping skills, they instincitvely learn that they need to survive and try to make things as pleasant as possible. If you ask Martha Stewart, I'm sure she would say that she was not miserable every minute of every day in prison, but that does not mean that that it was an appropriate punishment for her crime.
Anyway, I am rambling here. Just give it some time, Amanda. As you become an adult, you will begin to look at things differently. And you are right about seeing a therapist. I would suggest that you continue to see a therapist, well into your 20's. I think it will help you adjust to everything.
Good luck to you.
Megan
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All that happened to most of the people I knew who screwed up or screwed off in high school was they ended up poor or working class.
Sure, it's more fun to have more money, but I have to wonder how many of these yuppie parents would have a cow if you suggested that their wild teen would probably grow out of drugging a lot or pulling stunts that were going to get him caught and get him serious jail time---and would simply be poor, or working at Wal-Mart, or as the UPS guy, and having a beer at the end of the day, and pretty much living for a pickup game with the guys on the weekend, or a couple of beers and a poker game, or watching a ballgame with the guys on the tube.
A lot of this is classist.
These yuppies say they're horrified about their teen being deadorinjail, but the *subtext* is that they're just as horrified by their teen (and their prospective grandkids) taking a step down the class ladder and being poor or working class (gasp!) and (worse) being content to be so.
My husband's best friend from high school went to high school drunk every day. Friend is Native American. He's had one working class job after another, and a failed marriage. Most of his problems stem from being the target of a paternity suit when he was 14. He and his parents always said the girl's dad fathered the kid and he was just friends with her, and that they picked him to avoid the shame. And it was before DNA tests, barely, and so the way the judges are the guy can't just go back and say--DNA test this, and if he comes up not the dad be done with it. I don't know if he fathered the kid or not. I do know that he's been poor and single all these years because he always had to worry about his wages being garnished and kept one step away from starvation. Whether he deserved it or not, I've no idea, as I said.
But he was wild, and all he turned out was poor.
That's been fairly typical.
And out of all the people who do some jail time, *most* of them end up in the county jail for small stretches and mostly just poor, not in state or federal prison for serious time. Mostly the jail time is an infinitesimal fraction of their adult lives.
So the wild teens who do end up "in jail" for short stretches, I've got to wonder if what their parents are really horrified by is the "poor" part.
That's what really frosts me about these parents.
Most of them, all their kid is in danger of is ending up one of the unwashed masses instead of a yuppie. Oh, horrors.
So the kid comes out of the program and *still* ends up working class and no matter how poor the kid ends up, or if he does small amounts of jail time, it's "a relapse" and at least the kid isn't dead or doing hard prison time----which he wouldn't have been in the first place.
But Mommy and Daddy Dearest have to "do something" to try to get their kid, who doesn't look to be yuppie material despite their fond hopes, "back on track"--their track. So private prison it is.
It's pretty disgusting.
Most of these kids aren't in danger of anything more than a life of trailer parks, budweiser, and punching a time clock.
Oh, Horrors!
TimocleaNot a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them.
--Thomas Paine
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Not saying your wrong Timocela - but this is not always the case.
Often enough, I think, the families are just like ours - squarely middle class - toward the lower end - and going deep into debt; or spending long held savings - to try and save the kid from themselves - so they could have a future of some kind besides that of a dumpster diving junkie.
Others have kids with mental health disorders that are not appropriate for at home services and they think they are buying a premium program as opposed to the sub standard care so often found in the state homes. I feel this is a terrible misconception, the program being what it is - but I understand how and why they think it.
A few actually think they are sending the kid to a college prep boarding school!
This is where I feel the fraud come into play.
In any case - I know we were not trying to insure a yuppie future. My husband is a mechanic. His dad was a mechanic. His brother shoveled coal. My dad was a meter reader. I have mostly worked for minimum wage in pet shops, vets offices and shelters. I have worked in Printing, but that too was minimum wage.
Back when we were the age of our kids and needing jobs and self sufficiency - you could get a job like this with very little education and no one cared what you smoked after work.
Now, HS is mandatory and some college preferred - even to shovel coal! You have to pass a fairly difficult pre hire test and a drug screen.
If I had dreams, it was that my kids might find a way top make a good living with their art, as both are gifted. But I have often told them, I don't care what they do as long as its legal; will support them; and they are happy doing it.
I know in our son's case - we turned to the program with the intent of insuring a High School diploma and a sober enough mind to at least be able to give rational thought to the future he wanted.
But we were not told the truth about the program - and would never have considered it an option if we had been - and I am convinced this is true for most families.
If told in the beginning, what the program actually IS and what they actually DO - I don't think they'd see many, if any, enrolled - which is why, IMO, they go to such extremes to mis lead the families.
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On 2005-05-11 11:34:00, BuzzKill wrote:
If told in the beginning, what the program actually IS and what they actually DO - I don't think they'd see many, if any, enrolled - which is why, IMO, they go to such extremes to mis lead the families.
Yes, this is very, very true. But the parents and Programers are misleading themselves as well. In the `70's, they believed that smoking pot would lead a kid inextricably down the primrose path through speed, acid, heroin and, eventually, hacking up their own parents a la Manson Family.
Sounds crazy now. But people bought it.
Now we're told that ppl who do meth are exactly like those heroin addicts we used to hear about but who failed to really materialize. No heart, no concience, just blood sucking zombie slaves to their addictions. Yeah right!
I was a young woman in the `80's. Damned near everybody I know did some coke back then. A few of them did enough to make up for any who passed on the whole fad. But that's all it was, it was a fad. Most everybody just simply put it down, even if "it" was smoked freebase.
You're right, Tim. The reality is that kids ta'day will likely turn out pretty much like adults in any day; foggy as hell in their memories when comparing themselves back then to their own kids ta'day.
A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001
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I agree Ginger, except for your compairing Meth to coke - or any other drug for that matter.
IN a recent conversation with a young woman who is a friend of my son's, I was told how everything any of them used in the past was a fad. It came and went. They used it a few times or a bunch of times - but then it passed. But this has not been the case with her friends on meth. They don't seem to be able to set it aside. The inevitable negitive consequences don't give them pause. She is one of the kids most involved with the local drug sub culture - and she is scared to death of what she sees meth doing to her friends. Then she calls me and scares me to death. Isn't this supposed to be the other way around?
But I tell ya - I do hope some of the dire predictions and consequences of meth making and use are hyperboil - b/c if not, this is one real serious problem for everybody.
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Oh, no doubt meth is hard to kick! So is crack. But people do it. And people do it mostly because they look around and see what not quitting can do to you. And I think that's the very reason why so many people do not quit cannabis. They look around and don't see any real cause for concern.
Point is, no matter what you do from the sidelines in an effort to control your gorwn or nearly grown kid, the only really powerful influence is always going to be their own observation and free will. First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Gandhi
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Meagan,
Im 22 actually. Its funny you put it that way, about needign guidance about having a baby. I had a baby 14 months ago and boy howdy, did I need some guidance! Im not saying Im this lump who cant figure out anything on my own. But surly you know that as human beings we all get into habits and ways of thinking that create this block in our minds. Like for instance, I may get angry at my husband about something. Im sure it is abou this one thing. But once I talk to a friend or family memeber about it, I realize many times that I was getting mad about something that was not really what I was mad about. See what I mean? It is good I think to get more than one perspective to realize what is really true and what isnt.
When I speak of the peopel I knwo who havnt grown out of it, I mean people between the ages of 22-30. Most of my friends have always been older than me. And actually, the friends I have who are 25-29 who have grown out of it are in AA and therapy. And most of the kids Ive met in college are (mentally) worse than the kids I met in high school, because they are older and should be more mature. for instance, I was studying one day in the common area of our campus and three girls were giggling and hiding behind this big column. I over heard one of the girls saying, "Theres professor Blah(cant remember the name). We cant let him catch us skipping!) Now I just had to chortle to myself because A) Hes gettign paid regardles of wether they go to class and therefore probably could give a shit less and B) it wasnt high school. Professors arent going to care if oyu go to class or not. Theyer just wasting their own money and time.
And the people I know who still do drugs, unfortunatly have not learned the mature balance. They still party all the time, are late to work, pass out drunk in the hallway, ect. No different. Since you know I am not 18, I understand how the mentality changes. After having a child, I understand that. But alot of people just dont get it. But be honest. We live in America, the land of overindulgence. Most Americans dont understand the idea of a balance or how to not over do it. Sorry, but I just think that is the truth.
I agree, I have heard of people being put down and mentally abused in the program. That will create a negative mindframe if anything.
Amanda
PS. Do I seem that young?
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Tim,
The part about the jail time? Even a small stretch of time can cost more than your freedom. Do you know how much it costs to even just go to court and be sentanced? A hell of alot of money for a teenager. And not to metnion, if it had anything to do with drunk driving, DUID, ect, car insurance skyrockets up for a long time. Plus it is on your record for a while. Depending on the charge, it can effect you for longer than just the "short stretch".
Not sayign that anything is wrong with having a middle class job (hell I have one and so does my husband) but sometimes you want more for your life than popping out babies and workign a nine to five (or if your really poor, 9-10:00PM) and coming home and drinking a miller lite. Thats not to say you have to be rich to be happy. But doing something you love Vs. working at Walmart can depress the shit out of you if you choose the latter.
I think the paretns would be happy if their kid worked at Wal mart. Hell most the kids who are doing meth and smokig and all that get the money from their yuppie parents. If they got a job their paretns would probably fall over dead from shock!
I know my parents just wanted me to be what I wanted to be. An artist. That dosnt make any money at all. But its what I wanted.
Amanda
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Ginger,
Just looking at the last posts and saw something interesting.
The part abotu how peopel dont quit smoking pot because there isnt a real concern there is kind of off. Ther SHOULDNT be a cause for concern. But lest we forget, as unfauir and stupid as it is, pot is illegal. If I got caught smoking pot, my daughter would be taken away from me. that is enough reason to not do it. Its wierd. Pot is the least dangerous illegal drug there is really, but it is illegal and cigarettes and alcohol (very dangerous drugs) are legal. Its a shame. But there are reasons for peopel not to smoke. Or at least to hide it better. :smile:
Amanda
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//Point is, no matter what you do from the sidelines in an effort to control your gorwn or nearly grown kid, the only really powerful influence is always going to be their own observation and free will.//
Point taken.
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Amanda, re: the pot thing, we need to change that. Not just that, of course. We need to change a lot of things. And I suppose that's the real nut of my beef w/ the Program. The whole concept of it is to break any kid who doesn't accept, w/o question, whatever arbitrary and humiliating bullshit we throw at them. That's SO wrong! We should be raising this generation to take charge of our rogue government, not to cower before the stupid Nazis!
There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
Alfred Lord Tennyson
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Amanda, sorry, I didn't know you were 22. There used to be someone who posted here, who knew a girl named Amanda and was in the process of getting her out of a program. Was that you??
About AA... when I was 18, I worked for awhile as a waitress. It was lots of fun. There was a group of teenagers and young adults who would come in every weekend, they were from either AA or NA. I talked to some of them a bit, and it seemed to me that a lot of these people were with this group because it was sort of like a club. I thought it was pretty weird. And I wondered how many of them had drug/alcohol problems so severe that they required these sorts of programs.
A few years later, in nursing school, I did some research on drug and alcohol treatment. It was clear that there is a serious lack of options for people seeking help with their alcohol or drug use. Lots of people drink, or do some types of drugs, who may need some guidance in managing their use. Theres nothing wrong with that. Lots of people go to therapy to learn to manage things, like relationships and jobs and personal time, ect... Not all of these people will require something as drastic as NA or AA.
In Europe, there is a program called Moderation Management. It is kind of like Weight Watchers, but for alcohol use. Participants may go to meetings, if they like. Basically, all drinks ar worth a certain number of units. You figure out how many units you can have in a week, and you stick to it. You can spread them out, or save them for the weekend, whatever. This helps lots of people get a handle on their alcohol consumption, before it becomes a big problem. I don't know why Moderation Management is not used in the States.
And, I'm sorry if this sounds judgemental, but if you know so many people who are in AA, then you are hanging out with the wrong crowd. Consider taking up with the Moderation Management group (no, just kidding). But extremism is not healthy. Where do you live, anyway?
Megan
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Something my stepdad told me that he realize while thinking today while running my paper route got my attention. And, it explains a lot.
"If we had been told by someone that they had a miracle cure for you, when you were still 10 years old, we would have tried it".
These programs take full advantage of terrifed, frustrated, desperate parents. They manipulate emotions and feelings and reality and truth from day one. Thats the heart of the problem (or, rather, how it spreads in the first place) and part of why its just so damn EVIL!
But now, I've come to the realization that I have no idea how to change that. How do you prevent manipulative, greedy businesses from preying on scared parents? When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd
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Niles: All I've been able to think of to do that is consumer protection laws like we have for cars that are lemons, or like the laws on the meat packing industry, or the laws that govern drugs or medical devices.
We can't keep all people from falling for scams, even this scam where their kids pay the price.
What we can do is use consumer protection laws to reign in the fraud and deception and require truth in advertising---or, more accurately, punish deceptive advertising when it happens.
Long term, the other thing we can do is fund mental health research using good, solid studies that track outcomes.
One thing I can think of off the top, but which some people would be extremely uncomfortable with, would be requiring programs to provide names and addresses of kids leaving the program, which would only be kept up until six months past the kid's 18th birthday and only be used for contacting groups of kids to offer study participation of following outcomes. If you paid the kids for periodically filling out questionnaires, you could get good participation. Paying them would make the study expensive, but one landmark study is worth a thousand piles of half-assed crap.
The programs wouldn't like it and would cloak their objections in mouthings about the kids' privacy. The program parents wouldn't like it. But if kids between the ages of 18 and 25 or 30 were being paid, and the ones who declined participation had their information deleted and weren't bothered after their first refusal, I think the former program attendees wouldn't mind.
I know at 18 *I* would have participated in a study where I just filled out questionnaires and maybe signed a release for certain personal records, if it meant extra money in my pocket.
I'd do the study by checking juvenile and medical records of the attendees before they attended, along with self-reports of problems, and then using matching for controls.
I'd use several levels of matching and a "lie scale" to separate out program attendees who were exaggerating their self-reports of bad behavior.
I'd also take a smallish but still statistical random sample and use neighbor or community peer reports to rate how "wild" the matched controls were as teens with how "wild" the program attendees were as teens, as perceived by their communities prior to program attendance.
Give the researchers the budget, and the laws to give them access to make their offer to the kids as newly minted legal adults who need the money, and the researchers can *definitely* produce very good data in landmark studies that would definitively show how various programs affected teen outcomes.
Give me enough money and the access and seven years and *I* could tell you. But, of course, a real research psychologist with a PhD would do so much of a better job that I'd rather you give it to her :grin: :grin: :grin:
Research is important because it's one of the necessary tools to shut down any false claims these places are making and document which kinds of problems these places handle particularly badly. Or which kind of problems, if any, the places handle well without undue psychiatric casualties.
I say that last just because it's ingrained not to make statements about prospective research and assume the outcome although I am personally skeptical that the facilities provide any long-term positive difference in outcomes for the populations they accept.
Timoclea
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No. I wasnt that girl. Now my view on AA is very looked down upon on this forum. Many people here look at it like its as bad as the program or something. I do not agree. If anything, AA is a voluntary program. Therefore the people who go there go there because they choose to follow the principals and see it as helpful to them. I think if they like it well good for them. I was in AA for 3 years till I relapsed. I dont go anymore. I simply cant drink, so I dont. When I drink, I always drink too much. Dont know why. But i always do. Im not exagerating about that either. After I slapped my husband in the face after drinking too much, I just stopped. Occasionally now, I will have a glass of wine with dinner or something. But liqour and beer I just cant drink. Ive had alcohol poisining so many times the smell of most liqour makes me nautious. So I just dont do it. But while in AA, I met some super rad people. I am happy I went if just for that. They are usually the people I turn to for the advice I was talking about. They are level headed people who in the case of alcohol, feel AA worksthe best for them to stay quit and I dont judge them for that. I appreciate what it does for them and I live my life differently. Occasionaly my friend Courti will ask me if Id like to go to a meeting wiht him, but he never presses me about it.
I think we dont havce modeation management because, like I said before, we live in America. Most TV zoned out zombie Americans have no idea where to begin with moderation. Dont even know what it means. In Euroup many kids dont view alcohol as this sneaky thing that they want to abuse to be cool. It is normal for a teenager to go to a bar, get a drink wiht a friend, sit in a park and have a beer, and go home. It isnt so much of a "Im going to drink to be cool" thing there.
I dont talk to many people in Aa anymore. Mostly my BF and a couple of others who have still been my friend after I relapsed and stopped going. But the friends i have who are sober (wethere its because of AA or whatever) are really neat people who have alot more of their shit together than the people I know who are not sober. And I dont mean in terms of having a job and keeping it, going to school, ect. I mean in terms of a positive attitude and being generally responsible.
Amanda
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On 2005-05-12 07:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Niles: All I've been able to think of to do that is consumer protection laws like we have for cars that are lemons, or like the laws on the meat packing industry, or the laws that govern drugs or medical devices.
And how have those been workin' out for us? I just paid some woman $450 for a scratch on her `93 Saturn in order to avoide the much higher extortion rate of higher insurance premiums. Trust me, the entire car (including the contents of the trunk and console) is not worth that amount. But the consumers must be protected!
My new car is lots of fun! Automatic everything and all. But I couldn't fix anything on it if I had to. I'd wind up paying some rediculous sum for an entire assembly if a $1.69 electric motor burnt out. I feel so safe!
Meat packing? We're doing fine in that department, if you don't mind the hormones, antibiotics and prices.
TJ had it right; "Enlighten the people generally, and tyranny and oppression of both mind and body will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day."
Time's fun when you're having flies.
--Kermit the Frog
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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There have been a number of studies done.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1990/4/seen01.html)
In a six-month follow-up questionnaire of parents of Provo Canyon School graduates, compiled in June, 1988, almost half the parents pointed to structure as the area most beneficial to their child.
http://additudemag.com/ourkids.asp?DEPT ... &SUB_NO=22 (http://additudemag.com/ourkids.asp?DEPT_NO=302&SUB_NO=22)
Excerpts:
Research published in the June 2002 issue of the journal Medical Health Services Research says that sending difficult children to a boarding school may not be as effective as keeping the family together and providing a family preservation program. Psychologist Linda A. Wilmshurst of Texas Woman's University compared children enrolled in a residential program with children who stayed at home.
Wilmshurst theorizes that fear may have been a factor. "Removal from the home may have served to exacerbate existing levels of anxiety, resulting in excessive worry about their future, concern about past behavior, and a heightened awareness of the potential of removal again," she said. She also speculates that at least some of the difference may have been caused by interaction with other troubled children at the residential facility.
Almost two-thirds (63%) of the children who stayed with their families showed a reduction of clinical symptoms for AD/HD, general anxiety and depression. Only 11% of the children who participated in the residential program showed similar improvement.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =110#31298 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3865&forum=9&start=110#31298)
Federal study found restraints lack sufficient regulation
http://www.statesman.com/specialreports ... 18gao.html (http://www.statesman.com/specialreports/content/specialreports/restraint/0518gao.html)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#24989 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3405&forum=9&start=0#24989)
http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/amp549755.html (http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/amp549755.html)
When Interventions Harm: Peer Groups and Problem Behavior
Excerpts (emphasis added):
The Adolescent Transitions Program Study
Group counseling and guided group interaction produced a negative effect on delinquent and antisocial behavior (Berger, Crowley, Gold, Gray, & Arnold, 1975; Feldman, 1992; Gottfredson, 1987; O'Donnell, 1992).
In this article, we tested the hypothesis that high-risk young adolescents potentially escalate their problem behavior in the context of INTERVENTIONS DELIVERED IN PEER GROUPS. To examine this hypothesis, we first invoked studies on adolescent social development, indicating the processes that might account for problem behavior escalation. More at:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49825 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5516&forum=9&start=20#49825)
And a very revealing study from the Industry showing that programs are most successful with Suicide, Sexual Permissiveness,
and Run Away. Things any good lock-down or prison would be successful with or that parents could accomplish with a good security system.
The key remarks to notice are:
1/3 were negative or unenthusiastic in their approval indicating they didn't feel they got their money's worth, Suggests inappropriate placements are happening too often, Suggesting that programs promised more than they could deliver.
Results of the study at:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56579 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6205&forum=9&start=0#56579)
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Amanda, Where do you live? I'm just trying to gain some perspective on your story.
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On 2005-05-12 00:04:00, bandit1978 wrote:
I don't know why Moderation Management is not used in the States.
Moderation Management is used in the US. It's just not offered as a formal program. I use it all the time. When my family said I was drinking too much I just cut back. Simple as anything. Didn't have to go to a single meeting. I just quit going to the beer store so often.
I think the reason why MM is not offered by treatment providers is because the prevailing opinion among those altruistic tyrants who would save us from ourselves is that all substance use is abuse. The crazy bastards have been going after medical doctors w/ a vengence for the last couple of years. They don't even approve of opiates and opioids used for pain management under the care and supervision of licensed medical doctors!
Nightline aired a segment on the war on doctors just last night.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainManage ... 207&page=1 (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainManagement/story?id=749207&page=1)
There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?
-- Dick Cavett
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Guess i forgot to put that in my post. i live in Colorado Springs.
Amanda
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In most states, medicinal marijuana is not legal (well, I think most states). But my boyfriend often prescribes (to his pt.s) a pill called "Marinol", which is a medication derived from cannibis or marijuana or whatever.
Unfortunately, I don't know much about it. I myself have never administered it to anybody. But my boyfriend seems to like it. He thinks it is safer than oxycontin and all those drugs, though he would never hesitate to prescribe those drugs if they are needed. In any event, doctors should be free to decide which medication is appropriate for their patients.
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Marinol is a scam and doesn't work as well as smoking/eating/ingesting/vaporizing good homegrown marijuana. Pharmaceutical companies know unadultered marijuana is a medicine, they pretend they do something magical to turn it into a medicine. They do nothing, absolutely nothing (other than make it less potent)! They are just trying to get their piece of the pie- it's all about money. If americans weren't so convinced what they are taught by their propogandish government was true, they'd realize there are many medicines that you can grow yourself.
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Marinol is not exactly a scam.
It works considerably less well than real marijuana, iirc because Marinol is just a way of delivering THC, the primary active chemical in marijuana.
The reason Marinol works less well than marijuana is that some of the medicinal benefits of marijuana are coming from some of the many, many other chemicals in the plant than just the THC.
And the drug makers haven't identified those, so they can't match the performance of marijuana.
If they could identify the other active chemicals, it's possible that they could make a pill that's safer and more effective than the actual marijuana.
But they don't have it yet.
I think it's good that marinol is legal and doctors can prescribe it. Patients who have extreme legal scruples can take the marinol, patients who *don't* can take it as a wink, wink, nudge, nudge hint from their doctor that they would benefit by smoking some pot. And it's a hint that doesn't endanger the doctor's license.
Sure, it would be better if our society was not fucked up about this. But since it is, Marinol has its place.
Timoclea
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But what is 'unsafe' about marijuana?? Nothing!
How can they improve upon that?
Medical patients eat and vaporize their meds, there is no damage to lungs at all. I think the problem is our society now believes medicine comes in pills, and no other form. This is ridiculous! It just sets the stage for the limited few to control the masses medication and rape them of serious hard earned money. Money the companies know the customer has to spend in order to stay alive or remain pain free.
It really bothers me you can go into a hospital and get a prescription for addictive opiates, and cannot for marijuana. This is an infringement upon the rights of American's by any definition.
When will citizens start thinking for themselves and not believing the propganda? That is the time the laws will change.
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Sativex has been approved and will be coming soon to a pharmacy near you (if you live in or near Canada, anyway)
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpfb-dgpsa/tpd-d ... cpl_e.html (http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hpfb-dgpsa/tpd-dpt/sativex_dhcpl_e.html)
It's a whole herb extract tested and approved for neuropathic pain. But I'd think it would be good for just about anything the whole herb is good for. Just depends on the strain they use to make it. I'm guessing (by the name) it's heavy on Sativa, light on Indica.All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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There are tons of medicines that are not available in this country...and don't count in George Bush to encourage the exploration of new meds. He has done more to prevent the advancement of medicine than anyone I can think of.
The only thing he is doing to make doctors' practice easier is to attempt to put a cap on medical malpractice claims. Still, most doctors I know don't find that compelling enough to give Bush their vote.
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Here's a good read on that from an economist's pov:
http://www.fee.org/vnews.php?nid=4725 (http://www.fee.org/vnews.php?nid=4725)
Today men with risk of heart trouble know to take half an aspirin a day. By 1988 it was well established that aspirin greatly reduces the risk of myocardial occlusion. But for years the FDA forbade aspirin makers from advertising that fact (the FDA still significantly restricts advertising about it). The FDA surely killed tens, and quite possibly hundreds, of thousands of Americans by this restriction alone.[4]
An Animated Cartoon Theology:
1. People are animals.
2. The body is mortal and subject to incredible pain.
3. Life is antagonistic to the living.
4. The flesh can be sawed, crushed, frozen, stretched, burned, bombed, and plucked for music.
5. The dumb are abused by the smart and the smart destroyed by their own cunning.
6. The small are tortured by the large and the large destroyed by their own momentum.
7. We are able to walk on air, but only as long as our illusion supports us.
-- E. L. Doctorow "The Book of Daniel"
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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When my Dad was dying with cancer, his nurse told me she couldn't tell me to buy him pot; she could write for Marinol; but it didn't help - and pot did. But she couldn't tell me to buy him any pot.
Got back in touch with some ole pals after that conversation.
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On 2005-05-13 18:20:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"When my Dad was dying with cancer, his nurse told me she couldn't tell me to buy him pot; she could write for Marinol; but it didn't help - and pot did. But she couldn't tell me to buy him any pot.
Got back in touch with some ole pals after that conversation.
"
See? All this wrangling over religious doctrin is sort of silly. When it comes down to you, you don't usually let it interfer w/ doing what's right anyway.
When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that do.
Anonymity Anonymous (http://fornits.com/anonanon)
return undef() if /coercion/i;
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i was taken down for laughing in transport line and had my face put in to the dirt FOR LAUGHING just thought you might like to know
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Make a complete writeup about this and post it to ISAC, or just here if you want to. It would help a lot to spread some facts to shut up everyone whose spewing the programmie lies!
The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer