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Messages - Karass

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181
The Troubled Teen Industry / Carlbrook
« on: December 28, 2006, 05:14:08 PM »
Curious that everyone talks about studies and evidence-based therapeutic methods, and yet I could never find a single study of TBS youth outcomes. There was that NATSAP-sponsored b.s. a couple months ago, but that was too obvious and too easy to shred.

What about wilderness? There are lots of studies. Sure you can debate and shred the peer reviewers, bias or lack thereof, but still there is some evidence, and not all of it smells like b.s. and not all of it is rosy pro-program results.

The Wilderness Research Center at the University of Idaho has published several studies, as has the Wilderness Research Center at the University of Minnesota. Some but not all of these are sponsored by the Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Research Cooperative, which I am well aware is something of a trade group like NATSAP.

The most interesting finding I recall was a study that showed treatment outcomes after 2 years were about the same for the group that did community-based therapy after wilderness as for the group that did TBS after wilderness. Not much of an argument for sending your child away and spending 10s of thousands of dollars, yet this is the most common scenario for most kids who attend wilderness -- anywhere from 75-90% go on to residential "aftercare."

I can't find the study right now, but I'm sure my son can. He referenced it in a paper he wrote for school on the subject of wilderness therapy. I find that pretty ironic, since the assignment was to write a term paper on a controversial topic of current interest. Well, it sure as hell was of current interest to him at the time, being only a few months away from the Utah dirt! And no doubt it is a controversial subject, whether you believe it has any "therapeutic" value or not. He felt that it did, at least for him.

182
The Troubled Teen Industry / Carlbrook
« on: December 28, 2006, 04:39:19 PM »
Quote from: ""Deborah""
And what if the tables were turned... and the parents received some of this Impact "therapy". Say we round up all their friends from the country club and business associates and let the kid read his Impact letter, listing all the many ways his parents had failed and the emotional/ psychological/ developmental issue this caused him.


You just described a significant part of the 3-day family session that concluded his time at wilderness, except for the part about "the country club and business associates" who were not present. You're right, it was not fun to be called on all of my own failures and my own shit. I still think it was one of the most important 3 days we've ever spent together as a family.

183
The Troubled Teen Industry / Carlbrook
« on: December 28, 2006, 04:27:24 PM »
Quote from: ""Charly""
psy-  Wilderness really does not work the same way the TBS programs do.  It is not the same model.


The only reason "wilderness" and "TBS" can coexist in the same thought or thread is that the target customer base (StugglingParents) is the same. Beyond that, they have very little in common. I would argue (and have argued) that if a teen gets some benefit from wilderness (some do), there is a significant chance that the benefit will be undone if he/she is directly shipped off from wilderness to a residential program. Hopelessness and the feeling that no matter what one does, he has no control over his immediate future is not a very therapeutic emotional state, IMHO.

I never had any intention of sending my kid away to a so-called school, and when I started getting pressure to make such a decision -- halfway through his 7 weeks in wilderness -- I found Fornits & ST, and met a number of activists, program parents, ex-program parents, etc., and I started to get educated. The more I learned, the more convinced I was that someone was trying to sell me something my child and my family didn't need. Ironically, my son's wilderness program didn't steer me toward any particular TBS's and as far as I could determine, they really had no financial connection with any other programs.

No one should be naive enough to think that 7 weeks of anything is going to address problems that took years to develop, or that anyone is going to be "fixed" in any way. The same can be said for a 12-18 month stint in a residential program.

184
The Troubled Teen Industry / Carlbrook
« on: December 28, 2006, 04:07:15 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Nice doubleteam! Too bad I type fast  :D  BTW, where are you from anyway?

Ask Ginger to check my IP. This is about my 100th post on Fornits. All but the last 3 were anon. Most of my earlier posts were what ST parents would call "anti-program." Even now, I'm definitely not "for" wilderness therapy and am not convinced it was necessary or even that it was money well spent (notice my avatar).

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I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally
Really? Then what is it?

One word for it is "hardship." But that's also an inadequate description. Also not a recognized therapeutic method, but it does have an effect on people.

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Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group.

Uh, that is the same thing, just "spun" with a few buzzwords. We call that "boilerplate" for a reason you know!

Boilerplate or not, it's pretty close to my son's assessment of what he did while he was out there.

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A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next

It's pointless unless there is some reason to go from campsite to campsite, and hiking isn't therapeutic in any way unless its a healthy person trying to burn calories or just enjoying it... and that has not one iota to do with psychotherapy at all.

So yes, its pointless, because of its utter irrelevance to real psychotherapy.

I guess you and I will forever disagree on the 'therapeutic' value of hiking and being away from civilization. My kids and I have been hiking in the wilderness since they were pre-schoolers. We didn't do it to burn calories, but to see and experience something that couldn't be had any other way.

I will agree with you on one important point -- this has nothing to do with psychotherapy at all.

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The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.
Were you in Dead or Alive in the 80s? You sure as hell do spin me right round, baby!

No, in the late 70s/early 80s I was more into the Sex Pistols, the Ramones and the Clash. But you just reminded me of The Wedding Singer, which was a pretty funny movie.

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Inducing exhaustion is one of the hallmarks of instigating a psychological regression, and to put it another way puts a lot of control over someone. Exhaustion is not part of psychotherapy, but sleep if someone WANTS to sleep is just part of treating someone right. Also, "solo" is not actual psychotherapy, but it is part of typical wilderness program schtik.

It's also related to an ancient Native American tradition that involves transitioning from boyhood to manhood. No it's not actual psychotherapy, but that doesn't mean it is devoid of value as a learning or growth experience.

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You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.
Isn't it a damn shame nobody who runs these places, and the parents who send kids to them, even years later, can't answer that! Gee, I sure wish someone would get off their ass and answer it. Too bad we've put untold thousands of children through this before someone bothered to check.  :roll:

Others have attempted to answer it. I will piece together my own observations and what I have learned. More importantly, my son can tell you in his own words what he thinks was valuable about it, as well as what sucked about it.

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Need I remind you who populates fornits? Educated activists, ex program kids, ex program staff, and ex program parents!


And some of them have helped my son and my family a great deal. They have especially helped me avoid making a huge mistake -- or if you prefer, an even bigger mistake than the one you believe I already made by sending him to wilderness.

185
The Troubled Teen Industry / Carlbrook
« on: December 28, 2006, 03:18:37 PM »
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
What the hell does wilderness isolation have to do with therapy or any beneficial effect?

What on earth does 'wilderness' do, or do the people do and wilderness is just a setting for it?

To me, I see people not used to living in dirt, dirty, unwashed, with shitty food and forced to rely on people they dont like who very well might be unpleasant (or worse) to them, considering most of the crux of wilderness programs is about pushing their buttons until they break down, making them do repetetive tasks and make fire, and then have outbursts from emotional nonsense and use facepaint and indian names.

And of course they can't say uncle and go home.

Unless this place is different...


That's a pretty superficial description, and not all wilderness programs are the same. My kid attended a different one than Karen's, but I think there are some common elements to all of them -- living in dirt, unwashed (most of the time), with shitty food, and you can't say uncle and go home. As for the people, there were very few my son didn't like very well and they were fellow "students," not staff. No facepaint, no indian names or other stupid nicknames.

I don't think button-pushing or breaking them down is an adequate description of what they endured emotionally. Lots of confronting of demons, lots of journaling, introspection and talking things out -- sometimes one on one with a therapist and sometimes as a group. And yes, lots of wilderness-related tasks like making shelter, fire, rope and animal traps, gathering water, cooking, etc. A fair amount of hiking -- usually 1-3 miles/day -- not just pointless going around in circles, but to get from one camp site to the next. The exception was "night hike" right before a 3 day solo (he did that twice). Those were long hikes, intended to induce exhaustion, where the kids would sleep away most of the daylight on the first day of solo.

You want to know what is effective or "therapeutic" about any of this? That is the essential question a parent must answer before subjecting their child to this, so I'll take some time and formulate a thoughtful response later.

One thing that was very clear was that not everyone gets the same thing out of the experience, and what each gets from it depends on what they put into it and how they approach their predicament -- their predicament of being stuck in the wilderness with a bunch of strangers as well as their big-picture predicament of what is going on with their lives back home.

186
The Troubled Teen Industry / Carlbrook
« on: December 28, 2006, 02:49:11 PM »
I finally decided to register after too many Guest posts. I like Karen's new persona -- refreshingly open and honest. Some good exchange of info and ideas. I'll join the fray shortly.

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