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Messages - GregFL

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The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 23, 2009, 01:07:56 PM »
Thanks Johnny.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: This forum, Now and then
« on: July 23, 2009, 12:56:35 PM »
Perhaps you should seek a therapist to deal with this. Anger and rage at age 52 for things that happened to you 40 or so  years ago doesn't work and maybe a professional can help you deal with it.  You are slinging anger at people that aren't listening and/or don't care about  what you say because your message is juvenile and silly and downright counterproductive. Your communication is totally ineffective.

Your obession with Libby is unhealthy.  The things she "did" happened to her as well.  She was a child when she was put in the seed.  Do you know how she feels about her involvement with the seed  today?  Of course not.  But you choose to put people's names and address's on a website and assume that these people haven't changed at all in the last 40 years.  

  All you have managed to do here is make this forum unusable for everyone but yourself.   Maybe purging online in this forum  is working for you ( I doubt it, it seems the anger is picking up, not going away) , but for everyone else you are making a mess and ruining this forum.  A forum BTW that has helped hundreds of people come to terms with The Seed and how it affected their lives. At this point, anyone now who logs on looking for answers is proabably going to think anti-program people are all angry children that shouldn't be listened to, and they will be scared to participate because they won't want some nut looking up their personal information and posting it on a website.

You should log off the computer and go away.  Your participation is hurting you.

Just sayin.

TO the OP, I understand your concerns and I am no longer in any position to change the direction of this forum.  Sorry.

The Seed Discussion Forum / This forum, Now and then
« on: July 23, 2009, 10:58:55 AM »
This is Gregfl.  I originated this forum at the suggestion of Ginger many years ago.

I just am coming in to make a few comments.

This forum was conceptualized as a place where people could come and discuss this topic, this very divisional and controversial topic, in a manner that they could be heard.  It didn't matter what side of the issue they took, I provided a forum where people could discuss this topic safely. I deleted names, except the staff who allowed themselves to be named in the national media, and protected everyone else's identity the best I could due to the nature of the topic.   To this end no personal attacks were allowed  and for many years the forum thrived. We had escapees, staffers, graduates, and Barker insiders calling each other, talking out issues, and many people found peace and  understanding on these pages.

Several years ago my daughter became seriously ill and I abandoned moderating this forum.  For most the forum had kind of run its course and we old farts had resolved our issues and most of us had even come to respect each other no matter what side of the issue we were on. Most of us had  come to understand we were just children when this thing called the seed happened to us and that we no longer had to view it from the eyes of a child.  I had hoped the forum would continue without me  as kind of a resource for people who hadn't been fortunate enough to be around this forum in its formative and productive years. (to anyone concerned, my daughter is doing fantastic now!)

Unfortunately the forum is now being trolled by people with an agenda.  When a forum gets trolled, the 'goodness' gets lost, shouted down and buried under muck.  In this case, the debates, the resolution, the intellectual conversations, the ability to see where and why others think as they do, and  the coming to terms for many people is lost under juvenile anger, countless logins, profanity and nonsense.  

I offer no apology for this because I am not responsible for it.  If I still was, I wouldn't let it happen.   To anyone reading, please look at the prior condition of this forum as kind of a seperate discussion and I think you will find it enlightening and usefull.  To do this, you have to wade thru a proverbial bucket of crap for a glass of water, but the good things are still here.

If I was able I would shut it down and just archive the old pages.  I offer my support for those being attacked now and my assurance that if I was still moderating this forum it would not be occuring.

To all my friends still posting or reading, I wish you all well.

Straight, Inc. and Derivatives / Re: Wes Fager
« on: February 15, 2009, 02:10:13 PM »
Thanks to Ginger for calling me with this sad news.

Wes was a good friend to those of us who got to know them.  His personal hero was Richard Bradbury for his very public and brave efforts to close straight.  He saw his struggle as similar to Richards...someone who made a mistake by  aligning themselves with the program, then  came to realize said mistake and fight against it.

In the formative days of this forum and the organized (somewhat) internet efforts against the program in its various guises, There were a handfull of people talking about what the hell happened to them.  Among them were Wes, Ginger, Kathy, Ken, Kim, and a few others, and I stumbled in with my stories about the seed.  Almost immediately Wes and I became fast friends and compatriats.  In the 4 or so times I met with Wes we always laughed and felt at home with each other.

Wes is directly responsible, along with a few others, with he activism that exists today.  I will never forget his friendship or his efforts.

RIP my friend.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: A Seed Book
« on: January 01, 2009, 08:06:45 PM »
Greetings all.  I hope everyone is having a great holiday season, and best wishes for the upcoming year.

Evan Wright is "clevlands" younger brother.  When I say Cleveland, I mean the profilic poster on this board.

Evan is a contributing editor for Rolling stone, and wrote the book "Generation Kill" that was made into a top rated mini-season on HBO.  Evan has an engaging personality and a writing style that weaves a story by letting you get to know the characters surrounding the subject.  

I first met Evan several years ago when he called me and told me he was coming to Florida to research a story for an upcoming Rolling Stone article.  I invited him to stay in my home during the several weeks he was here, and he took me up on it.  We became fast friends and I donated all of my extensive research on the Seed for the article. I also set up a meeting between me, Evan and the director of a seed offshoot program, who allowed us to visit an open meeting, gave us a private interview complete with pics, and allowed us to even meet with the kids privately.  It was a mind blowing experience.  During the time Evan was here he also had a lunch date with Art himself.  

the Rolling Stone never ran the piece, and soon Evan was embedded in Iraq for Rolling stone, came back and wrote an award winning series on his time spent with the marines who led the charge into Iraq.  This was the basis for his book, which became the #17 best seller and eventually the mini-series.

After his well deserved success with "generation Kill", he got a book deal to write his upcoming book on The Seed.  the book should be fascinating.  I believe it will be written from first person, that is..Evan's experiences as a child druggie who makes his way to the Seed.

that is all I know.  I haven't spoken to Evan in quite some time but I wish him luck with the book and I hope he does the story justice.  maybe Cleveland can shed some more light on the project or persuade Evan to come here himself.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: The impact of this forum
« on: August 24, 2008, 12:08:15 PM »
My new reason for living a long life...

The Seed Discussion Forum / Re: The impact of this forum
« on: August 20, 2008, 10:51:16 AM »
Well that and how to take an organization down the slippery slope into cultdom, and that you can't cure society's ills by "modifying" someone. Also, that sometimes the cure can be worse than the disease. another one, "love" isn't a catch phrase and any organization that wants you to love the like hell. I could rattle these off all day!  

Cleveland, being a 49 year old dad is awesome.  Also, it caused me to get back in the gym and start worrying about staying young again.  Some day we should all get together and have a cook out or some type of get together.  That would be a hoot.  I could just see the supporters and detractors of the seed all sitting around bullshitting and recalling memories.  what a day that would be!

The Seed Discussion Forum / I heard ART retired
« on: January 09, 2008, 11:36:17 PM »
Quote from: ""Stripe""
Dang, that's funny as hell.  :lol:

Maybe its just me,  but it gets funnier every time I read it!

 ::hey::  ::hey::  ::hey::

Quote from: ""Oz girl""
While i freely admit I am in this discussion without having been in a program, I think that there is a danger in writing off any faith system that is unpopular or strange as being just like a program. Fishers ideas are alarming, the paramilitary shit was bizarre and the crazy masses went to far. But there is a difference between indoctrination and brainwashing. i would say that my own parents liked the idea of religious indoctrination ( not into anything that extreme) and at the end of the day I rejected it. So did at least half of my classmates. This was always a bonafide choice.

In programs (at least from what I have been told) there are no real choices, the kids do not seem happy, even those claiming some benefit. There are few leisure activities or any freedoms. The primary philosophy is cruelty. I dont think fisher was about a philosophy of cruelty to these kids. When they were not at nutbar mass they seemed to have relatively normal childhoods. if anything that was what was alarming. These people were normal suburbanites  with some of the most absurd ideas i have ever heard. But if this is child abuse and should be banned then where do you draw the line? Because in any democracy there needs to be freedom of ideas and faith no matter how mad.
The idea of putting this woman out of business or vandalizing the camp disturbs me

I think you are missing several important paralells. First, these camps are seldom "voluntary" as you say but rather kids are put in there by their parents,'for their own good'.    It is indoctrination, pure and simple.  Second, they are forced into certain behaviors that embarrass them and make them ripe for the indoctrination.  In the program, we call this 'motivating'.  And third, they are forced to accept a certain set of beliefs or be ostracized by the group.  religion by Peer pressure, as it were.

There are more similarities.  this is the short list, and it is interesting that you give religious 'faith' a free pass when it hasn't earned it. Where else in society do we do this?

Your perception of how program kids appear isn't accurate.  program kids, by all outward appearances, once they get off of the early phases appear happy.  If they don't, they will answer as to why.  They also do activities and socialize with other kids who have accepted the program indoctrination. How is this different?  The philosophy isn't cruelty, as you say, but rather "saving" the kids from the culture of drugs which is seen as evil by modifying their belief system. Do I have to point out this is the same goal as the religious camps but around a different philosophy?

Finally, brainwashing is indocrination of an idea or set of ideals using specific techniques designed to break people down and rebuild their beliefs around the group leaders' set of goals for the group.   While the techniques used in these relgious camps aren't as harsh as the rehabs most of us were forced into in either duration or intensity, they don't have to be because they are used on very very young children and the children for the most part are already exposed to this ideas at home and at church.  These religious summer camps definately use brainwashing techniques in various degrees of harshness.  Just because Jesus or Mohammed is supposedly floating around in some etheral background doesn't legitimize this travesty.

Religious cults are the grandaddy of all cults.  the particular religion matters not..what matters is the intensity of the indoctrination, the methodology of the indoctrination, and of course the underlying message that the poor recipients are encoded with.

Here is one of my favorite videos that clarifies the issue.  Please note, those watching who were forced as children to "motivate" in their own teen torture camp, that the more disturbing cults (jesus camp, the islamic 'schools') force the kids to do their own version of motivating... ... 16&index=1

The Seed Discussion Forum / I heard ART retired
« on: December 30, 2007, 02:50:08 PM »
You know, I haven't read this in a while...but it is kind of funny!

The Seed Discussion Forum / Good life
« on: December 30, 2007, 02:45:55 PM »
Quote from: ""Johnny G""
I am still working on the "in bed till 10" but, all things considered - things have worked out pretty well.

so, your in bed till 10, and if you screw up you start again?


The Troubled Teen Industry / Which program was Phil McGraw in?
« on: December 26, 2007, 10:09:16 AM »
Those photos have YECHH! all over them.

Happy programites make me feel all yucky.

The Troubled Teen Industry / Which program was Phil McGraw in?
« on: December 24, 2007, 01:33:48 PM »
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Greg- I understand that The Seed etc were based on synanon and the human development movement but do you think that there is some kind of fundamentalist religious influence? ( both on Dr Phil and Straight separately) I once read an old Washington post article on straight in it's heyday that said kids were allowed to read the bible but no other book. Dr Phil's wife is some sort of capital H holy roller. So I wonder if he was influenced so much by straight etc or if he just has in common with them a combo of skinner style psychology and a fundamentalist religious mentality that makes them sound the same.


The seed allowed you to read the bible for political reasons. Virtually no one did as the culture of the Seed was decidedly anti-religious.  You had to get special permission to go to church in your later phases.

the program was taken and then twisted to fit fundamental religious dogma.  this was seen in countless programs, including teen challenge , and for a time the former straight Orlando branch SAFE when Loretta Parrish was at the helm.  This is about the only way to make the program even worse and more totalitarian, IMO.  that is, to take the program modalities and to make people bend and break down around a religious dogma.

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