376
The Seed Discussion Forum / Thanks for this forum!
« on: September 30, 2004, 09:31:00 AM »
Hey, I hope to hear more from you!
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377
The Seed Discussion Forum / Thanks for this forum!
« on: September 28, 2004, 11:48:00 AM »
I've been reading the sometimes lively debate about the seed on this forum, and all I can say is - I am so glad there's a place where I can read about both the good and bad side of my experiences there. There WAS good and bad, and there are other aspects of it that, even today, I have trouble sorting out.
I was there for a long time and got very close to some people that I cared about. I was lucky to have an oldcomer that did really care about me, and there were staff members there that I remember with kind thoughts. However, in spite of this, I chose to leave, which was not an easy thing to do. I had to give up everything and start over. So, obviously, not having my own life, and having to clear every decision and thougth with Art Barker was a real downside. And even Art - I just find it hard to be mad at the guy - although I left him behind long ago.
I have also heard from some fellow seedlings and that is unbelievably nice. I've had no one to talk to about this for years and years.
Thanks again to Greg and Ginger and all the others who have both good and bad things to say.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-06-11 12:41 ]
I was there for a long time and got very close to some people that I cared about. I was lucky to have an oldcomer that did really care about me, and there were staff members there that I remember with kind thoughts. However, in spite of this, I chose to leave, which was not an easy thing to do. I had to give up everything and start over. So, obviously, not having my own life, and having to clear every decision and thougth with Art Barker was a real downside. And even Art - I just find it hard to be mad at the guy - although I left him behind long ago.
I have also heard from some fellow seedlings and that is unbelievably nice. I've had no one to talk to about this for years and years.
Thanks again to Greg and Ginger and all the others who have both good and bad things to say.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-06-11 12:41 ]
378
The Seed Discussion Forum / Physical Symptoms
« on: September 24, 2004, 03:00:00 PM »
Just wanted to add on to Trucker's and the other poster's comment that the seed wasn't equipped to deal with more extensive problems. Unfortunately, Art distrusted anyone but himself and staff he controlled so even when there were situations that needed additional help, it wasn't there. I bet that caused a lot of people pain. I know for myself, I could have used some real counseling on some issues I had to deal with.
I think the seed was effective at taking a person out of their present situation and maybe shocking them into making a change. That seems to have worked for both of these people.
I think that might have worked for me too, if:
a. I had had a serious drug problem (I didn't)
b. I'd been encouraged to leave and start living my own productive life
c. I'd been taught how to deal with the world as it actually is instead of dividing everything up into Seedlings (us, all good) and Druggies (everyone else, all bad) and nothing in between.
But obviously, even with flaws, it did work for some of you and I am glad that it did, although if it was worth it for some of the other people Greg talks of who were harmed, and the Drug War in general that Ginger discusses, that's the bigger debate today, I think.
Hey, my mom's a drunk today and if there were a seed to stick her in...you know, it would be tempting...I'm sort of kidding here...
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-24 12:00 ]
I think the seed was effective at taking a person out of their present situation and maybe shocking them into making a change. That seems to have worked for both of these people.
I think that might have worked for me too, if:
a. I had had a serious drug problem (I didn't)
b. I'd been encouraged to leave and start living my own productive life
c. I'd been taught how to deal with the world as it actually is instead of dividing everything up into Seedlings (us, all good) and Druggies (everyone else, all bad) and nothing in between.
But obviously, even with flaws, it did work for some of you and I am glad that it did, although if it was worth it for some of the other people Greg talks of who were harmed, and the Drug War in general that Ginger discusses, that's the bigger debate today, I think.
Hey, my mom's a drunk today and if there were a seed to stick her in...you know, it would be tempting...I'm sort of kidding here...
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-24 12:00 ]
379
The Seed Discussion Forum / ft.laud. seed '82-'85-looking for other seedling survivors
« on: September 23, 2004, 12:19:00 PM »
Great! Either register on this site - anonymously - or email directly from you own email account at: [email protected]
It would be great to hear from you! I have heard from one other person who was active at the same time, and it is really great to connect and share this.
I did a lot of housesitting, and I remember Lybbi's dog being sick. I lived with one of the guys who was a great woodworker, and he worked on Art's boat. I had jobs at Broward General Hospital, Westgate Printing, and other assorted gigs. Maybe that's a clue. I have no problem sharing my personal anonymity, because I have no problem with my past, hard though it may be to explain.
Anyway, my signature is what many people called me in Florida:
It would be great to hear from you! I have heard from one other person who was active at the same time, and it is really great to connect and share this.
I did a lot of housesitting, and I remember Lybbi's dog being sick. I lived with one of the guys who was a great woodworker, and he worked on Art's boat. I had jobs at Broward General Hospital, Westgate Printing, and other assorted gigs. Maybe that's a clue. I have no problem sharing my personal anonymity, because I have no problem with my past, hard though it may be to explain.
Anyway, my signature is what many people called me in Florida:
380
The Seed Discussion Forum / Physical Symptoms
« on: September 23, 2004, 10:00:00 AM »
I appreciate the perspective of the two previous posts. Yes - when I came into the Seed, I had seen several of my High School classmates overdose, drown, carwreck, suicide, etc. and my own family had a strong history of alcoholism, so when I came in and was told drugs were the problem, OK!
However, I continued on to spend seven years of my life at the Seed, because I thought I was helping people and because I was led to believe that leaving was wrong, that I would be admitting I was a loser and that I would never be happy on my own. All wrong!
Also, as far as drugs go...there are dangers to anything we do, from sex to overeating to thrill seeking to smoking, drinking and drugging. I think saying 'Just Say No' to everything is a simple solution, but it will not always work. I have family in AA, and that's great; I have others who are unrecovered, and that's NOT great, and others who enjoy a drink now and again but are aware of the dangers. For me, quitting smoking was really hard to do, and I enjoyed the way if made me feel but I don't want to die for it. So I consciously worked on stopping. I hope that the same approach would work for me on anything I put in my body - I'm an adult. For kids, they get exposed to all this and worse every day, but I think putting a kid in a boot camp is unlikely to work in the long term. Check out the Straight sites and see all the kids who left and went on to overdose or suicide.
Besides that, when I left the Seed I needed counseling - my family had a lot of problems I needed to understand, and the most I'd learned about it at the Seed was that they were 'fucked up' - well, no kidding. I had also developed a crushing low self-esteem, partly from my family issues and guilt and partly because the Seed enforced that for me, never allowing me to think that I was good enough as a person.
If the Seed or anything else helped you, that's great. I did get a lot out of it, but mostly because there were other kids like me and we were forced to rely on each other, and became friends - friendships that ended when I left the Seed because I would be considered a 'druggie' and would not be allowed to interact with my friends. That is cultish behavior, and THAT is harmful.
Glad to hear from you, I appreciate this forum for all of us to express our views OPENLY, unlike relating in Group when if you said anything 'wrong' you'd know it. Honesty IS the first and most important policy, after all!.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-23 07:05 ]
However, I continued on to spend seven years of my life at the Seed, because I thought I was helping people and because I was led to believe that leaving was wrong, that I would be admitting I was a loser and that I would never be happy on my own. All wrong!
Also, as far as drugs go...there are dangers to anything we do, from sex to overeating to thrill seeking to smoking, drinking and drugging. I think saying 'Just Say No' to everything is a simple solution, but it will not always work. I have family in AA, and that's great; I have others who are unrecovered, and that's NOT great, and others who enjoy a drink now and again but are aware of the dangers. For me, quitting smoking was really hard to do, and I enjoyed the way if made me feel but I don't want to die for it. So I consciously worked on stopping. I hope that the same approach would work for me on anything I put in my body - I'm an adult. For kids, they get exposed to all this and worse every day, but I think putting a kid in a boot camp is unlikely to work in the long term. Check out the Straight sites and see all the kids who left and went on to overdose or suicide.
Besides that, when I left the Seed I needed counseling - my family had a lot of problems I needed to understand, and the most I'd learned about it at the Seed was that they were 'fucked up' - well, no kidding. I had also developed a crushing low self-esteem, partly from my family issues and guilt and partly because the Seed enforced that for me, never allowing me to think that I was good enough as a person.
If the Seed or anything else helped you, that's great. I did get a lot out of it, but mostly because there were other kids like me and we were forced to rely on each other, and became friends - friendships that ended when I left the Seed because I would be considered a 'druggie' and would not be allowed to interact with my friends. That is cultish behavior, and THAT is harmful.
Glad to hear from you, I appreciate this forum for all of us to express our views OPENLY, unlike relating in Group when if you said anything 'wrong' you'd know it. Honesty IS the first and most important policy, after all!.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-23 07:05 ]
381
The Seed Discussion Forum / Physical Symptoms
« on: September 22, 2004, 04:45:00 PM »
Yes, there were physical/mental symptoms that were the result of the intensity of the experience. Some were unpleasant, others were like what you might find with meditation - an altered mood and feeling. Weird stuff that increases susceptibility.
382
The Seed Discussion Forum / Years later...
« on: September 22, 2004, 04:41:00 PM »
No kidding. The stuff I have read about these other programs makes me 'grateful' for the seed experience. I just lost my freedom and my self will - I wasn't beaten or tortured. Although some days felt like torture, for sure.
Where are all the other posters? I am excited by this site but it seems kind of dead these days, maybe everyone is concerned with hurricanes, Iraq, the election...imagine that.
Where are all the other posters? I am excited by this site but it seems kind of dead these days, maybe everyone is concerned with hurricanes, Iraq, the election...imagine that.
383
The Seed Discussion Forum / Physical Symptoms
« on: September 22, 2004, 02:42:00 PM »
Did anyone else suffer physical stress-related symptoms? Someone on this site posted that when they were in the Seed, they didn't know that it was strange to have a continuous lump in your throat, caused by fear of saying something wrong in the group. When I was a 'happy seedling,' my stress level was so high that I developed hypertension and digestive disorders, in addition to the lump in my throat. It took me years after leaving to learn how to be calm, to relax, and to accept myself.
Perhaps is was Post Traumatic Seed Disorder after all...
Perhaps is was Post Traumatic Seed Disorder after all...
384
The Seed Discussion Forum / Years later...
« on: September 22, 2004, 02:40:00 PM »
Years go by, and I barely thought of the Seed anymore. But now I have found this site, read posts and links, and I can't get enough. I can't read too many posts, and that goes for Straight, KIDS and others as well. Our experiences have so much in common.
It's been 26 years since I first sat on the Front Row, and I am starting to come to terms with it today. Perhaps I was too close to it before. Other people discover this site at about the same time in their lives. I hope to hear their stories.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-08-24 12:09 ]
It's been 26 years since I first sat on the Front Row, and I am starting to come to terms with it today. Perhaps I was too close to it before. Other people discover this site at about the same time in their lives. I hope to hear their stories.
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-08-24 12:09 ]
385
The Seed Discussion Forum / Conversion: the "Three Day Miracle"
« on: September 20, 2004, 09:43:00 AM »
Well, it is so good to hear a voice from the time when I was involved with this, it validates my experience. I'd love to hear from you.
It is interesting the way we were so segregated by gender, even as graduates. I remember being asked by staff to help one of the girls move a couch from their apartment, and it felt like such a privilege to talk with one ot the girls in their own space, like a normal person! When I left the seed, I was 26 years old and I had barely spoken to anyone of the opposite sex since I was 19. Dating was difficult, and I felt the need to tell anyone that I was interested in about my cult-ish experience, which was difficult because I barely understood it myself.
It's interesting to me that you were able to keep in touch with other graduates and maintain friendships. When I left in '86 it was a complete break, and had to be because I was still living in a group apartment, going to raps, taken home newcomers, etc. So - I had to sneak out and start over completely.
Elsewhere on this thread Ginger says she didn't know she couldn't have been forced into the seed by the late 70s, and Greg talks about violence. I think for those of us who were there in the later days, it was coercion from the inside. We were taught we couldn't make it on our own, and that the seed was infallable. As a newcomer, I definitely felt compelled to stay, with oldcomers poking me in the back to sit up, staring me down, yelling at me in raps, and having an arm around my shoulder whenever I left the building - not to mention the humiliation of being strip searched, having to leave the bathroom door open, etc.
Earlier I said cult-like. I think I modify it because, although we were compelled to completely conform to the Seed standards, we weren't being asked to do anything immoral or violent - in my day. We were just supposed to marginalize our personalities completely to the group, which was harmful. But no one asked us to drink toxic Kool-aid.
But - it was quite an adjustment to being on my own, and to this day, it influences the way I experience life. Like you, I spend a pretty big chunk of my formative years voluntarily (sort of) attached to the program. Thinking I was helping to save the world. And like you, I had doubts that finally lead me to leave.
Finally, I hope you are doing well with your life, I think I am, and I can really say I am happy. Can you believe it is 20 years or so since you left?
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-08-24 12:08 ]
It is interesting the way we were so segregated by gender, even as graduates. I remember being asked by staff to help one of the girls move a couch from their apartment, and it felt like such a privilege to talk with one ot the girls in their own space, like a normal person! When I left the seed, I was 26 years old and I had barely spoken to anyone of the opposite sex since I was 19. Dating was difficult, and I felt the need to tell anyone that I was interested in about my cult-ish experience, which was difficult because I barely understood it myself.
It's interesting to me that you were able to keep in touch with other graduates and maintain friendships. When I left in '86 it was a complete break, and had to be because I was still living in a group apartment, going to raps, taken home newcomers, etc. So - I had to sneak out and start over completely.
Elsewhere on this thread Ginger says she didn't know she couldn't have been forced into the seed by the late 70s, and Greg talks about violence. I think for those of us who were there in the later days, it was coercion from the inside. We were taught we couldn't make it on our own, and that the seed was infallable. As a newcomer, I definitely felt compelled to stay, with oldcomers poking me in the back to sit up, staring me down, yelling at me in raps, and having an arm around my shoulder whenever I left the building - not to mention the humiliation of being strip searched, having to leave the bathroom door open, etc.
Earlier I said cult-like. I think I modify it because, although we were compelled to completely conform to the Seed standards, we weren't being asked to do anything immoral or violent - in my day. We were just supposed to marginalize our personalities completely to the group, which was harmful. But no one asked us to drink toxic Kool-aid.
But - it was quite an adjustment to being on my own, and to this day, it influences the way I experience life. Like you, I spend a pretty big chunk of my formative years voluntarily (sort of) attached to the program. Thinking I was helping to save the world. And like you, I had doubts that finally lead me to leave.
Finally, I hope you are doing well with your life, I think I am, and I can really say I am happy. Can you believe it is 20 years or so since you left?
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-08-24 12:08 ]
386
The Seed Discussion Forum / Conversion: the "Three Day Miracle"
« on: September 18, 2004, 01:02:00 PM »
That quote is perfect.
The worst part of the whole experience, was that I was supported in the belief that I was (or had been) a bad person; that my former friends were liars, users, freaks and 'Druggies' (even if they'd never used drugs, they had a 'druggie' attitude); and that the Seed ideology and the staff that enforced it were virtually faultless.
I internalized the belief that, without the Seed, I was a loser. That I myself had 'fucked everything up' before I turned my life over to the Seed, and that on my own, I had been a bad influence on my friends, family, and society (I was 'part of the problem').
As part of the Seed, I saw other people as sick and deluded, and maybe bad. I saw myself as 'better' than others, but also knew I was potentially bad, because only the Seed made me 'straight.' And I always felt anxious, because, to my shame, I wasn't as perfect as I hoped to be.
Today, I see this same attiude in churches, schools, political parties - this cult-like certainty about right or wrong, black and white. I see it on the right, or course, but also on the left. It's human nature, if we allow ourselves to throw away reason, and allow ourselves to be manipulated, especially regarding things we feel ashamed of, like our bodies, sexuality, imperfection, social fears.
Whew! In some ways, I am glad that I went through the Seed, because I really think I was given an inside view of human nature. I had to tear myself down and build myself up, once as part of the Seed, once as an 'ex-Seedling.'
However, I wouldn't wish that on others. There must be a better way!
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-18 10:02 ]
The worst part of the whole experience, was that I was supported in the belief that I was (or had been) a bad person; that my former friends were liars, users, freaks and 'Druggies' (even if they'd never used drugs, they had a 'druggie' attitude); and that the Seed ideology and the staff that enforced it were virtually faultless.
I internalized the belief that, without the Seed, I was a loser. That I myself had 'fucked everything up' before I turned my life over to the Seed, and that on my own, I had been a bad influence on my friends, family, and society (I was 'part of the problem').
As part of the Seed, I saw other people as sick and deluded, and maybe bad. I saw myself as 'better' than others, but also knew I was potentially bad, because only the Seed made me 'straight.' And I always felt anxious, because, to my shame, I wasn't as perfect as I hoped to be.
Today, I see this same attiude in churches, schools, political parties - this cult-like certainty about right or wrong, black and white. I see it on the right, or course, but also on the left. It's human nature, if we allow ourselves to throw away reason, and allow ourselves to be manipulated, especially regarding things we feel ashamed of, like our bodies, sexuality, imperfection, social fears.
Whew! In some ways, I am glad that I went through the Seed, because I really think I was given an inside view of human nature. I had to tear myself down and build myself up, once as part of the Seed, once as an 'ex-Seedling.'
However, I wouldn't wish that on others. There must be a better way!
_________________
Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-09-18 10:02 ]
387
The Seed Discussion Forum / Conversion: the "Three Day Miracle"
« on: September 18, 2004, 10:44:00 AM »
Staff was totally different in my day. It is possible that Suzy Connors and John Underhill came to the Seed when I was there; they were kind of legendary.
Seven years was a long, long time. I missed the early days of intense activity; I came in after it was a voluntary program and you couldn't be sent in by the courts, or by your parents against your will.
Robert Chun (Chung?) came in from time to time. His visit was always special and he was always accompanied by Art. He was one of two African Americans I remember.
I was around enough to be close to the inner core, but I was never an insider. I was sort of a dutiful guy to run errands and help out, but I was never entrusted with real status. I think this is because I was honest enough to have doubts, and self-depricating enough to think that I was the problem.
After seven years, I had tried to branch out. I wanted to work with my hands in a boatshop; I was told no. I wanted to study art; I was told "art is kind of a feminine thing, and artist are weird people, aren't they?" - I wanted to date someone (Sr. staff no less - what was I thinking?!) and I was told, "she loves everybody" (and I thought I was special!). So, I remember on my seventh anniversary, I got a plain card that said, "seven years is a long time" - that's it - signed by the woman (or "chick") that I was in love with.
And I though, It sure the fuck is! It wasn't long after that that I left.
So, I have been in two of Art's houses, on his boat, lived with some of the senior staff, and played way too much football on the beach (I was probably the only one who hated this more than Raps!)
Art, Libby and staff were always pleasant to me, in spite of the fact that I could not be myself and was intensely repressed and unhappy, it is hard for me to think of them as evil people. Mislead, misinformed...I never saw physical punishment (but plenty of shameful mental torture) and I did see kids with big problems "change" (or at least imitate) happy, hard working and sober people. But - what a cost. And look at all these other horrible programs that have taken mind control even further.
Yes, viva free speech!
Seven years was a long, long time. I missed the early days of intense activity; I came in after it was a voluntary program and you couldn't be sent in by the courts, or by your parents against your will.
Robert Chun (Chung?) came in from time to time. His visit was always special and he was always accompanied by Art. He was one of two African Americans I remember.
I was around enough to be close to the inner core, but I was never an insider. I was sort of a dutiful guy to run errands and help out, but I was never entrusted with real status. I think this is because I was honest enough to have doubts, and self-depricating enough to think that I was the problem.
After seven years, I had tried to branch out. I wanted to work with my hands in a boatshop; I was told no. I wanted to study art; I was told "art is kind of a feminine thing, and artist are weird people, aren't they?" - I wanted to date someone (Sr. staff no less - what was I thinking?!) and I was told, "she loves everybody" (and I thought I was special!). So, I remember on my seventh anniversary, I got a plain card that said, "seven years is a long time" - that's it - signed by the woman (or "chick") that I was in love with.
And I though, It sure the fuck is! It wasn't long after that that I left.
So, I have been in two of Art's houses, on his boat, lived with some of the senior staff, and played way too much football on the beach (I was probably the only one who hated this more than Raps!)
Art, Libby and staff were always pleasant to me, in spite of the fact that I could not be myself and was intensely repressed and unhappy, it is hard for me to think of them as evil people. Mislead, misinformed...I never saw physical punishment (but plenty of shameful mental torture) and I did see kids with big problems "change" (or at least imitate) happy, hard working and sober people. But - what a cost. And look at all these other horrible programs that have taken mind control even further.
Yes, viva free speech!
388
The Seed Discussion Forum / Conversion: the "Three Day Miracle"
« on: September 17, 2004, 09:43:00 PM »
Why is there a suit by PURE? I read their webpage and it is anti WWASPS.
There is so much more to this than I would have thought.
There is so much more to this than I would have thought.
389
The Seed Discussion Forum / Conversion: the "Three Day Miracle"
« on: September 17, 2004, 09:35:00 PM »
Interesting.
I really didn't know about much of this besides The Seed; pretty amazing.
I looked up WWASPS in an online dictionary, and it came up with some damning evidence:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... nd+Schools
Keep up the good work!
I really didn't know about much of this besides The Seed; pretty amazing.
I looked up WWASPS in an online dictionary, and it came up with some damning evidence:
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.c ... nd+Schools
Keep up the good work!
390
The Seed Discussion Forum / Conversion: the "Three Day Miracle"
« on: September 17, 2004, 04:41:00 PM »
Seven years, Greg. Each year it got harder to believe the lie, but I still thought I was 'doing the right thing' by being a part of it.
By the way, does this forum get threats, attempts to shut it down? I imagine there are some pretty connected individuals who don't want these stories told.
By the way, does this forum get threats, attempts to shut it down? I imagine there are some pretty connected individuals who don't want these stories told.