Fornits

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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

I guess the whole point is for me that we were hungry for leadership. There was a void in our lives that was exploited by Art and the staff. They didn't create that void. Most of us came from alcoholic, divorced or disengaged families, although some of the kids just had the normal family life too but when confronted with the Seed most people broke down and joined in.

Again, I can't think of Art as a bad guy, at this point in my life but then again, he's not calling the shots for me anymore so maybe I can be gracious.

And personally, I'm as offended by the Drug Free America types as I am by the stoners who argue that toking up is a sacrement (yeah I know it is for some and peyote is sacred too and all that but whatever)...but let's just admit that not all mind altering experiences are done to improve self or society but for the fun of getting fucked up...or to self-medicate.

I'm sure that Ginger will argue with me that the DFA types are in power and the poor stoners are not...true; and Greg will argue that Art maybe WAS a bad guy because of the freedoms we lost and the Seed spinoffs that followed...true again.

But for some, the Seed worked. They will testify to that on this site.  

Somebody somewhere else on this site was saying that a truly caring, therapeutic environment for kids (or adults) would not be coercive. I can't argue with that. A truly caring world would look very different, and in this world the Seed would have been exposed both for good and bad. 20 years later this is happening.

You're right, "Death Before Dishonor," I had forgotten that!

OK, I remembered one of Art's favorite jokes. When there was some kind of holiday, he's walk into the rap room where everyone was seated, and say, "Welcome, celebates! Er, I mean celebrants!" I laughed until it hurt.

Art used to end things with, "If I can help just one person, than it's all been worth it." I found that a hard one to argue with and it kept me around for a long time.

[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-22 09:59 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-22 10:03 ]

OK, so all of this discussion is really making me have some strong memories of Art. I think probably all of us are Art experts, because we relied upon his moods and approval for our own self worth. So, I'll share a few:

Art was about 5'7" tall, barrell-chested, with a kind of cocky, ball-of-the-feet walk, like a boxer, but also light on his feet like a dancer - which he was. He had thinning, sandy-colored hair that he wore in a 'Caesar' cut, brushed forward, and he would nervously comb this with his fingers. He had kind of a confident FDR smile, and that image was reinforced by the cigarette holder he used. He had very brilliant, blue eyes, and they did in fact twinkle. His complexion was kind of ruddy, outdoorsey, with crows feet at the corners of his eyes. He wore a heavy gold chain, a pinky ring, and had an old tattoo on his right forearm, probably from his military days. He typically wore a pastel shirt, I remember in particular a light-blue short sleeved shirt he favored, and invariably his socks would match the shirt (something all male staff copied). He wore slacks, and often wore white shoes with a matching white belt (a look that would later be called "full Cleveland"). His voice was pleasant, a little raspy, with an old-fashioned Brooklyn accent. He could play the ukelele, dance a softshoe, sing a little bit, tell a couple of jokes. He was athletic and competative, and had a quick, hot temper that he seemed to get over quickly. He was bright, but no intellectual - you got the impression he'd scanned a few books without ever reading anything deeply. He was 55 years old when I first met him and about 62 when I left. The general impression was of a confident, charming guy, with a military bearing, well-dressed, fatherly, maybe a bit cocky - kind of like a good, mid-level salesman.

In general, a very appealing guy, but an enigma too - what was this guy doing hanging out with a bunch of teenagers in a warehouse in Florida?

When Art would lead a rap, it was pretty general and impressionistic. He'd talk a bit about his past, growing up poor during the depression, serving in World War II, becoming an entertainer. His alcoholism was reduced to a couple of sentances about ending up living in his car and having no friends left, and considering suicide. I never felt very touched by this, a bit sad but other staff had way more dramatic stories. Plus it was hard to see Art as a drunk. Then - the AA story, working with he actor Art Carney, a fellow alcoholic, and working at Belleview in New York, working as a comedian at the Playboy Club. Beginning the The Seed, maybe on the old yacht he'd bought, was described as "AA saved my life, but I wanted to take things further." It was pretty quick, vague and then - time for songs and jokes!

He was married to Shelley, a pretty, completely shy woman 20 years younger. She spoke very little, and usually in a Marilyn Monroe-like whisper - kind of spooky. I thought there might be something wrong with her, like a social phobia. It seemed to kill her to be in front of the group, though she smiled gamely. They would sing a duet together, "Making Whoopie" (she couldn't sing at all, part of the joke I guess, in addition to the song being about "Making Whoopie" which none of us were supposed to even be thinking about!)

Art was always surrounded by staff - he'd jump in, jump out of things and they'd do the work of leading the raps, playing the tough guy, the day to day. Staff were loyal, and mirrored Art's moods - if he had a bad day, they'd come into a rap loaded for bear, and look out. If some kid did something a little off, and Art would crack a grin, maybe this kid would get a bit of a break. Being called into the 'Back Office' was the worst thing. It never happened to me though so I can't tell you. The worst I got was a "don't do that anymore" or "get your head out of the gutter." At least until I wanted to assert myself, then just being told "no" was bad enough.

When Art was mad, staff would protectively group around him and then fan out on attack mode, mirroring and amplifying his anger.

The heirarchy thing was weird, because it was very strictly followed but was not explicit. Even among senior staff, some were more senior than others. And junior staff would change from time to time - if you were a regular member of the group but not part of the inner circle it was a constant guessing game of who was up, down or sideways and so trying to figure out who to listen to was difficult. However if Lybbi told you no, that was it. She was Art's surrogate wife since Shelley basically faded into the woodwork. Other staff of my time there roughly fit this family metaphor - Ginger was the funny, scrappy younger daughter, Ken and John were like the favored older sons, Bob W. and Cliff were like rivals for number two or three spot, with Bob being the mean one and Cliff the pushover nice guy. Evy was the cute, shy but loyal one - look out if you did something she thought would hurt Art. Cookie was the A student, Laura the reformed bimbo, Ray K. the redneck, Bob K. the pretty-boy (but look out if you crossed him).

Everbody was completely pidgeon-holed by the group. This is something that is also said to be typical of disfunctional families - you've got the hero, the slut, the nerd, the rebel, the jokester, and if you ever try to step out of that role the whole group would look at you like you were crazy - what do you mean, you want to go to school, your the lawn-guy, right?

Personally, I was dying for Art's approval. I wanted nothing more than to be elevated to staff - that was my highest ambition. Actually, my highest ambition was to like and love myself, but I thought I was so unworthy of that that I believed approval by Art and the group would convey worth on me I couldn't find myself.

Despite Art's professed gift of "instant awareness," I felt he looked right through me and failed to see the person that I was. So ultimately, I was locked in the same struggle that I'd had with my own father, who was a distant and angry man when I was a kid. Art used to say, "The opposite of Love isn't Hate, it's Indifference" and ironically, I felt he was fairly indifferent to me. For anyone who actually who was subject to Art's approval in a strong way, that must have been a powerful force. The lack of that allowed me to leave at a time when the Seed was desparately hanging on to graduates and jealously keeping them apart from the world and the lives they might lead.

Now that the Seed has split up, with some still on Art's side and some who have fallen away, the whole thing is a sad reflection of a family with an aging patriarch. It would be a parody except for the genuine compassion and loyalty which is involved, and the tragedy of lost dreams and wasted youth and all of the elements of drama.

No doubt, the Seed had an influence on a lot of lives and some of that was positive, some negative, read these posts to get your own impression. But Art the man, is still an unknown, a guy who really didn't talk a lot about himself, and maybe really he was just lonely, after all is said and done, and he created his own family which at one time was unbelievably supportive and committed to him.

Art is now aparently very ill with Parkinson's, and a few former Seedlings (ironically not the one's most favored at the peak of things) keep in touch and treat him kindly. He was a surrogate father and it's kind of like the favored children have broken all ties and left and the black sheep have returned to comfort the old man in his last years.

I don't see this as a blame or shame game in any way, it's just the way the world is and we need to look at it honestly and understand it. I'm still not sure where the Seed came from or where it's going, it has spawned abusive programs like straight and it has no doubt helped some people live better lives (arguable point, but I am going on the testimonials on this site). Art failed in his dream to create a 'Seed Army' and drugs and alcohol are still with us, probably for ever.

I really think the Seed was a great story if nothing else and we can learn a lot by telling it.

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Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-22 07:58 ][ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-22 09:57 ]

Perfect, Greg.

How about, "I can relate to what (insert name) said..."

This is a way to hook on to someone's statement, indicating approval OR as a way to subtly rework something said the needed to be improved upon, for instance, a Newcomer says "I'm starting to like it here, I mean people are great, but I'm still kind of lonely, I guess" (whoops). So here's the response - "I can relate to what John said. When I was a newcomer, I was lonely too, an first. And then I realized I had the best friends in the world right here, forever."

"Shit-eating grin" - indicates mindless happiness and the first indication that the "Three Day Miracle" is beginning. "I wasn't really happy at first, and then one day, I'm sitting there on the front row with this big shit-eating grin."

"That's some fucked-up shit." Self-explanitory, but usually used to indicate strong disapproval of something a newcomer did because they haven't gotten with the program yet or an oldcomer who is off track.


"The person I used to be..." was ALWAYS bad. If you screwed up and said, "You know, some of my friends were kinda OK... (long look from staff member leading the Rap) " - I mean, they were fucked up druggies and all...but" (the speaker looks around wildly, realizing that they are surrounded by disapproving stares) "well, I guess I mean I THOUGHT some of them were OK until I realized how fucked up it was that we were hanging out and stuff. OK, I love you" (as in, oh shit, gotta go - sit down fast and look at hands, waiting for the staff member or someone else to "relate" to you.

OK there's a lot more. But what's interesting to me is how much of it was non-verbal - a disapproving look, a raised eyebrow, a pregnant pause in a conversation. Like real life, only more so, cause everything was "so crucial" (another phrase which meant - too much, fucked up, don't worry about it)

And don't be such a "banana head" (nervous, socially inept loser, usually a newcomer whose moved on a bit and now wants to be accepted).

Oh, and don't be "into acceptance," like, I was so into acceptance with my old druggie friends (and now I'm just dying to have every Seed person totally 100% like me, but that's OK 'cause I'm still kind of a bananahead, I guess).

Oh shit, gotta go. Love ya!


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Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-21 12:54 ]

OK, since Ginger has opened the door to considering this from a Policy perspective...

I am no expert here at all. However, I'll take a quick stab at this...

1. I live in an inner city neighborhood, my job has to do with neighborhood revitalization. My neighborhood is 'trendy;' i.e., suburbanites will visit our high-end restaurants and some will by and renovate houses here or new townhouses. But just adjacent to the 'gentrified' area, there are drug houses, drug dealers, hookers, the occasional shooting. Cleveland's the poorest city in America, and it shows in our poorly performing schools, lack of services, police cuts, etc.

Every couple of weeks during the summer, I spend time calling the police on kids who are 'wild in the streets' outside my door - intimidating people with stares and loud music, selling drugs, drinking, getting high. These are by and large the boys, of course. The girls hang out with the guys, and some (many) of them concieve children in their mid to late teens. Some of them have substance issues. Most houses on my street are rental units, with absentee landlords. The housing stock is falling into disrepair.

My peaceful, middle class neighbors are moving away, and not being replaced by as many younger working people. There are not many jobs for those who live here, unless you're an entrepreneur or a professional - the working-class jobs are going fast.

The suburbanites demonize the inner city poor, of course, causing further loss of services to the neighborhoods, more sprawl, more segregation, more poverty, poorere schools, etc.

2. Two most dangerous drugs - alcohol and cigarettes. Alcohol has some health benefits when consumed in moderation by adults; tobacco none (unless used as a sacriment as the native americans do). Marijuana has some negative effects on lungs and perhaps motivation and perhaps sperm counts, but most users are pretty low-key; many people slow down in early adulthood because it's hard for most of us to function in a job stoned - although I do know of one person who smokes daily, but he's manic depressive and it is far superior to other anti-depressants for him - he's self-medicating. There are other alleged health benfits too but I can't go into that. Indiginous people chew coca leaves - it's part of their culture. Refined drugs like cocaine and herion are dangerous when abused, no doubt. Some people have found positive experiences from LSD and other hallucinagenics.

Point is, people will get high, In our culture, we've turned it into an 'all or nothing' proposition, instead of honestly evaluating the pluses and minuses and being conscious about whatever we consume or put in our body.

3. My wife and I are going to have a baby. What will we tell our child about drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc.? I hope we will be honest, but also realizing that children's awareness is limited. I hope to preserve innocence for as long as possible. Many people in my family have struggled with alcohol use; I hope that my child won't. I also don't want my kid to be toking up in sixth grade. Again, I think honesty and awareness are the key here, without being too permissive - or totalitarian for that matter.

4. The drug war is not working, as Ginger points out. I don't think it works with a person, if you try to shame them into being straight, or with a neighborhood, or a culture or country. I think it's a shame what we are doing to other countries with a drug policies - not to mention our oil policy (another dependancy for us).

My suggestion? Legalize most drugs, moniter use, provide plenty of treatment, national health care, invest in the schools, slow sprawl, preserve the environment, push sustainable development, change the political system to encourage honesty and long-term solutions, limit the power of corporations. See what a naive liberal I proudly am!

What the seed had, and straight lacked, was a sense of community and commeraderie at it's best. Coercion for the most part was gentle, teasing and positive (in my day). Most of the graduates have turned out pretty good, judging by these postings. However, I think the lack of freedom, the 'either-or'thinking, the heirarchy, the anti-intellectualism and closed mindedness of the seed doomed it in the long term, and I'm sad to see what it spawned in straight and national drug policy. I see it as part of a big american denial system.

I'm still clarifying my thoughts on this...

Interesting to see what others think.

Yes, I can understand anger, and it's justified. I just don't think we should abuse the person -

As far as the Seed being Third Reich-ish - that's all I used to think about on the Front Row. Until I was convinced that I was really worthless and needed the Seed to survive. Is there potential for abuse in this? Yes!

However, I hung around for a long time after my Front Row and came to really like some individuals. My 'interpretation' of what I was supposed to do became a little less black and white, and finally, I couldn't stay.

Do have good memories? Yes! Did I learn something about life, mainly by seeing how easily I and others were manipulated? Yup - would I send my own kid? Nope!

I do feel bad for anyone who suffered, and whose family was torn apart - so was mine, but mine was so disfunctional at that point I hardly noticed.

So the point is - your reality is yours, mine is mine - I don't want to be shouted down by anyone if I say something they don't agree with.  Otherwise it's like one of those phony Fox interviews where everyone's just yelling pointlessly.

Personally, I can't understand why anyone wants to yell at another person who went through the Seed, no matter what your experience there was. Whatever your personal experience was, it's yours, telling somebody the Seed sucked because you say so, or it was the greatest thing ever, is not going to change anything. I enjoy reading the posts about good times and bad, because I had both. I hope people on both sides will respect each other, because, love or hate the Seed, one thing we can agree on is that when you were in a Seed Rap you were not allowed to express anything but good thoughts about the Seed and anything but bad thoughts about your 'druggie' past. So, chill out and state your truth here and listen to others if you can. We can all learn something from each other - now that we can be honest.

Call me a Pollyanna if you want to...

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Wally Gator[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2004-10-01 06:21 ]