Fornits

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

This is all interesting - but it seems like we are only looking at kids after the fact.  You guys are talking about teen problems - but those problems are created by the parents when the children are babies.

Personally, I don't think it's enough to be the empathetic, listening, do-good parent once the shit hits the fan.  Those should be skills that were employed from day one - when the privilege of having a child was bestowed upon us. Some may view it as a biologinal imperative but I'm of the opinion that it's really a privilege to be responsible for another life.  

I saw this in my own life when the child mimicked the father and mother - taking on every good and bad behavior we exhibited. Everything from fingernail biting to kicking, hitting and screaming - all were behaviors exhibited by myself and my ex-husband. And it was so shocking to me to watch a child less than three years old kick me and tell me I was a fuck - the exact behavior his father exhibited. Frightening to realize how much damamge I had done and had allowed to happen by my own "powerlessness" in just that short time my child was alive.  

Children learn good and bad behavior from their parents. (On a personal note - yeah, I broke the law, a bench warrant was issed and I and refused to allow contact and paid dearly for that.) But, my son, who is now 22 years old, is one of the kindest, most compassionate young men you'd ever have the pleasure to know. I have bent over backwards to undo that damage we caused and allowed to happen. I took every opportunity I could to show him, time and time again, what it meant to be a kind, honest, non-violent, person. It cost me but it was worth the sacrifice.  

Children learn from what their parents do. When the good learning doesn't come into to equation until well after the child has taken those bad behaviors to heart, the end result is a very confused person and the damage is already done.  It can be undone: it's very difficult for the child, and it takes a lot of outgoing energy - to show them by example - the value and results of other choices and options.  But I know it can be undone.

I truly believe that a good society begins at home with the parent or parents (and I'not referring to the "Bush family moral values" where it's all perfectperfect church/bible oriented and we don't talk about what we did before age 38.) It begins with the elders/parents. Maybe it might make a difference for some very lucky children to have positive role models after the fact to help them understand abstinance or responsiblity and take those teachings to heart- but it's a small, small minority of kids who are lucky enough to make that connection.

Most times, the scenario repeats itself, over and over again.  Why else would 14 year olds have babies; why else would kids use drugs or steal from their neighbors or each other or run in gangs or kill ? Because they see their elders doing the same thing with no personal accountablity.    

As adults and now parents, if we continue to look outward, to lay blame on addictions and give up our personal power to choose and master our own behavior  - give it up to some exterior entitiy, what the hell will our kids learn?

The meassage they get is this: Go ahead and fuck up because you can go do 30 days in treatment, do some 12 stepping and everything will be ok -forgiven ... because you're powerless.  No, I don't think so.  That just perpetuates the problem.

Places like the Seed may have operated as parental input for some, but in the end, we still go back to what we were raised with- that's the core essence of who we are, who our parent's raised, good, bad, or otherwise.

I think everything we do in this life is purely a matter of personal choice.  No one forces us to do anything.  Our children see our choices  and they behave accordingly.  

Love and peace to you all.

On 2004-12-22 08:27:00, cleveland wrote:

"Stripe, although I think there may be something to that, I would think it's an oversimplification.



My thinking would be, that whenever a person is in a stressful, peer pressure, "group think" situation - whether work, family, friends, church, AA, whatever - they are working on a basic, emotional level. Think of gangs, charismatic churches, etc. And think of how powerful our emotions are in these situations - how we were when we were at the Seed, and how strong those memories are. But, I don't think we give up on the higher, critical functions -

if we think back, we remember doubt, we remember critical thoughts - but we chose to give in - "OK, I'll go along because (fill in the blank) I'm a fuckup, they are smarter, I want to graduate, they love me, let's get this over with" - whatever. And, of course, everyone's different. Don't you remember some scary 'super seedlings' who were mindless in their devotion? Note, none of those people ever were on staff. You had to retain your critical thinking to be effective, so you had to be able to make an internal compromise.



That's my thinking. Our analysis, or 'getting into our heads' about it. You and I are both over-educated fools - from a Seed standpoint!




"

Now, let me "relate" a later, post-Seed experience. After the Seed, Iwas still a junior in high school and very much segregated from high schoool life.  I became involved in a "christian" evangelical church. I was, of course, seeking some answers to the emptiness and lonliness that the seed rules and constraints caused, trying to find some straight friends who met that criteria. I became involved in the youth group where it was incumbent upon the members there to keep each other "in the faith"  Only one problem, the youth leader and christian peers determined that I did not have enough faith (??) and so I was asked to withdraw myself as I questioned too much.  :scared:  

I guess my point is, Wally, you shouldn't feel bad about saying anything that makes someone question their expereiences in the Seed- or any other thought/behavior control groups.  How many years went by before I was able to reconcile the kind of rejection I experienced in both places by understanding that those places were were the fucked up individuals or groups, and not me.  I'll tell you - about 30 years.  That's too long.

I think the reason some of us have so much trouble from these programs is because we really are more highly developed or evolved on a conscious level than even we know. Therefore,  there is inherently more internal conflict with the dogma. Contrary to those dogmatic teachings in the Seed or organized evangelical christian religion, knowledge, be it book learning or heart knowledge, is, to quote Martha, "a good thing."

I mean, why else would Seed-lifers need to ask someone else's PERMISSION to get a college education?  ::   It's because, as my mother has always told me - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.  Dangerous for the dogma pushers, that is.  

I think we need to give ourselves permission to question and blessings for being brave enough and smart enough to investigate the exterior authority these dogma-pushers put on us.  Bless all you stuggling angels out there.

Like "being in your head" and THINKING is such a bad thing?  Well, I guess having the underling think is a bad thing if the intent is to control what goes on in the thinking space ...inside the heads...

Right now, I'm thinking the whole Good/Bad Seed idea may, and my idea/hypothesis is just in its early stages - I think it might be a matter of whether a person operates from the base brain or the higher brain.  

The base brain, as I understand it, is that unevolved portion of our brains that calls to fulfull the base desires - food, sex, feeling good (and what that entails.)  Sometimes those base desires take over the being and a person becomes driven to fulfill those desires- hence addiction.  Again, this is just my understanding right now, but the higher brain allows a person to take control of the primative urges in a rational manner choosing to gratify the urges or not - instead of giving up control to the base desires or some other external power - be it a Seed, a church, the military.
 

Maybe the perception of good experience/bad experience is based on whether a person is base brain oriented (so seed was good because it kept them off drugs, or,more importantly, allowed them to remain at a lower consciousness) versus  persons who are presently or are becoming higher brain oriented, who have cnoflict with the program because it forbids/impeads development
of the higher brain or consciousness.

From looking at the posts since I've joined (early November2004) I can see where that might be a reason for the sharp divisions of opinion.

Are there no official studies on the effects of these programs?

I'd love to.  It took me 30+ years to figure that out, lots of therapy, many, many tears and a whole lot of other bullshit that I won't bother to go into.  And yet, it's so simple. I wonder why others can't see it.  

I expect there will always be people I disagree with.  However, disagreement is sometimes only a matter of perspective. Like your example of the physician obsessed with saving lives.  Does the result of the obsession make it any better? I dunno. But if I had to choose between the 9-5 guy who can go home and leave it all behind and not worry about my well-being versus the obsessed, driven healer, I'd pick the obsessed guy.  But then, that's just me.

Thanks for all of your hard work here on this site.  The explosion that has been my life over the past years is finally being sorted out, ordered and somewhat contained. The information, feed back and ideas here are invaluable and eyou are all doing a wonderful thing. Thank you all, again.
 
Stripe

Thanks for the replies.  I know there are times I sound really angry, and truhfully,I am.  In time that will dissapate.  I have no anger towards my parents now, but I did for years - obviously misdirected as their decisions were not fully informed. I just didn't know, but it's finally all coming together.  Thank you so much for sharing your personal stories with me. It helps me to understand.  
I appreciate it.   :smile:

I am 47 years old, my brother is now 52.  My parents are now 82 and 84, mom and dad respectively.  

Our folks put us (me and my brother) in the Ft. Lauderdale Seed in March of 1973. For lack of a better explanation, my behavior intially the  "cause" of our internment.  

My mother was a public school teacher and taught at the high school where I attended.  Apparently, a Seedling got her ear and told her what a wonderful place the seed was, how it changed her life, etc., and because of my radical behavior (having smoked pot maybe 10 times)our folks decided to "nip it" in the bud.  Anyway, long story short, my brother was injured at the time and my folks were given the choice of either both of us being put in, or putting my brother out on the streets with no place to live and no way to make a living while his leg healed.  My brother, bless his heart, opted come in there with me.  I wish I had known then the  sacrifce he was making for me.

Fast forward 32 years. After much introspection, etc., another seed freind and I come cross this site.  I began to remember things about the place and remember what happened to me there.  

I have since spoken with my mother about their  decsion to put us there - father was not included in the discussion b/c of his health at the time.  Our folks were sold a bill of goods on what the possible horrible outcomes were for me and my brother - and what great results would come from participation.  When I told my mom some of the things that happened there, she was shocked.  She cried and apologized.  Did I mentions she's 82 years old now? I explained there was no need to apologize because they were lied to - how could they have known what really went on there?  I never told them - how could they have known?

It's been a good experience for me and my brother to get this out in the open - between us and our forlks, instead of everyone  thinking/pretending it was a good and positive experience for us.  Understanding the reality of that time then helps me to understand my life choices and reality now.

Have other people discussed the aspect of such "involuntary commitmet" with their families or the persons responsible for signing the contracts or paying the fees?  How did the discussions start and what were the results?  

My experiece is obviously on-going and I want to be very careful not to cause my parents any hurt as they were only doing what they thought was right- based on the information given to them.

BTW - please don't respond with comments like "I was responsible for putting myself there by my "bad behavior".  This is actaully a serious inquiry to help me heal my family.

Thanks.