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Messages - Rugby Punk

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Maybe a little psychotic, maybe mostly shock value. Not being under his spell anymore gives better perspective that he really was a pathetic,egotistical shell. He spouted this stuff all the time at houses around the pit to get us to rivet our big terrified eyes on his little beady ones. He thrived on the attention. Did he believe what came out of his own mouth?  ...maybe a little, but I think he was pretty much a blowhard and he just liked to hear himself and make solid his cult of personality sphere, again, a very pathetic limited sphere. It's harder to recognize because he's trying to throw in all this literary prose in this letter to get the attention of the 'adults' and not the kids. He wants to be accepted as one of the witty intelligentsia, but he should know that he never will be.
One of our final 'school' projects in a Cedu farce of an English class was to critique pages of this drivel. On the day we turned in our critiques, Rudy revealed that he wrote the short story and respected us as adults to help him critique this great piece of his. Total EGO.
Total S#@T.

I was an older student at Cedu when Russ Decker started working there. From what I understood at the time, he went to the school in the early 80's and really wanted to come back and 'contribute' to the school that made him the man he is. He was definitely older than 24 at the time. There was about a decade gap between his being a student and starting his tenure as a staff. I remember it was about the same time that Luke and Sabro came on board. They give him a wide berth, probably realizing something was really off about him. On the other hand, he and Patrick Stambusky (aka McKenna) were great friends.

One more thing,
Seeing the interviews they did with surviving temple members really gets you to thinking how you could've stopped the madness in their shoes. Now transplant back to Cedu; do you flee, do you rebel from the inside, or do you shut your mouth and stay off the radar?

4 ... 9#27206055

A link to an old, but updated documentary on Jim Jone's cult that moved to Guyana. They drank the kool aid 30 years ago today.

Also, a book that I've been reading lately that makes for some interesting points is THE NEW BELIEVERS , by David V. Barrett. There's nothing about Synanon which is disappointing, but they do have a section on the Landmark Forum and some est branch off groups. Its also from the UK point of view which is why I think they have more on European groups and less of the American cults. Good resource.

RIP Congressman Leo Ryan and 900 other pour souls. :peace:

Quote from: "nashari"

Triple dose?  :sue:  I got kicked out of RMA and was part of the class that shut down Hill Top.  I am sorry if your experiences in the 80's were not anything but mindfucking.  That is really sad to hear, since being a Vet, you should know that the situations you find youself in is up to you to how you handle them and the outcome.  You act like this is a fight, when there has been nothing but opinions stated here... so if you want to fight... pick up a rifle, get back to training and head back to the desert.


hey. Nashari, I get it. You're amped up on adrenaline. All Huuah! and gung-ho and ready to rock and roll. No, I don't want to fight you. That's not the point at all.
I think maybe I, and echoing everyone else on here - are very worried for you. The fact is, being a vet, I realize that the choices were NOT totally up to me and how I handled them as much as the fact of being a tool (speaking of useful tools) of some shitbags in Washington. To a degree, yes, you watch your buddies back and they watch yours. But you know what? When your numbers up, its up. A random IED or RPG and click, that's it. You have more of a chance over there of that happening then sitting cozily here. Why be over there due to someone else's half-baked agenda when you COULD be sitting cozy back here? Duty? I understand that. You did sign the papers, you're in for the long haul. Just don't have any illusions about how far your duty and loyalty lie. Be there for your buddies and not for some criminal leaders.
Speaking of criminal leaders, apparently most of them left before you got to Cedu. So explainath your milquetoast experience. You had several chances (1. RMA, 2. Hill Top, 3. Cedu ) to realize that something was very wrong, but apparently that didn't click then and it won't now. Or, sticking by my earlier statements, the brainwashing hasn't worn off.
Again, be safe.

Quote from: "nashari"
CEDU was what it was.  It was neither a bad experience, nor a good one... but a place for people that had real problems, to come to and find a better, and a more meaningful life.  I attended all 3 of the CEDU schools from 93-96.  RMA, Hilltop, and CEDU.  From my experience, CEDU gave me beneficial tools to turn my life around after hitting the gutter and losing myself a few years ago.  The fact that you probably never even attended the school, but are just trying to make a profit on other people's misfortunes in their life, just shows the charactor to which you truelly are.  If you have a problem with anything I just said, you can always come down to Fort Bragg, NC and talk with me about before I deploy early next year for the Middle East to protect the freedoms of the free speech that you use so carelessly.

Hey nashari,
I gotta say, I have no doubt you got a triple dose of brain washing smack down being at 3 Cedu sister schools!
Glad you got some positive experience out of it. Personally, it was kind of a wash for me. I got some good friends out of it, but wasted a valuable 2 years getting mindfucked. I was there with Liam, he did indeed attend Cedu in one of its most brutal periods. Also, since I'm an Army vet with Combat zone experience, and apparently, we get to choose whose freedoms we fight for - I choose to fight for Liam and his right to say whatever he so chooses. cool. thanks. Be safe. Remember you're over there to watch your buddies back and not so you can defend someone's political agenda.

Quote from: "try another castle"
The third one is called "swine lake". Cause they really ARE all pigs.

OMG! I remember this! But with all the key figures of Cedu, RS, CA. We had this same skit performance, Winter '90. Swine Lake. Same song, same outfits, the works. How unoriginal. I wonder where the skit first was created and for who. (Patrick Stambusky was in both performances - RMA and Cedu, CA apparently. Possibly = the connection?)

I'm sure we had the bad boob drag too from a few staff, although I don't have instant memory flashback on that, it seems vaguely familiar.

Did they do the Blues Bros./Soul Man one for you too? Andy Grenier and Guy Bonano did that one for us if I remember correctly.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / Re: The Rap
« on: August 30, 2008, 12:39:32 AM »
Quote from: "Awake"
The sex aspect now coming into memory like an angry ghost! I don't know if you were writing from an RMA experience, because actually having sex at Cedu CA meant you weren't coming back, at least during the late 80s/early 90s. They didn't play lightly with that - it was so much of their control mechanism - the purgation of our hormones.

I absolutely remember with painful clarity of feeling - that sex was considered the dirtiest, most self-debasing activity you could permit yourself to do - that it came out of "thinking"; that it was not healthy or normal - that the impulse to normal, age-appropriate sexual experience was disgraceful and really quite sinful, and that it had to be shared publicly in the raps, and purged.
 There were four cases of the sex agreement being broken that I remember when I went to Cedu. 2 of those cases I remember in partcular. 1 of the 4 was sent to Ascent never to return and  the other 3 were put on full-times. Times must have changed a bit during the periods we attended b/c as I recall staff foamed at the mouth drooling over the opportunity to make a public example of those who broke the sex agreement. I'm surprised to hear you say if you broke the sex agreement "you were not coming back." (What do you mean by that? Did they go to Ascent and/or another program?) The Cedu I remember really took advantage of such a situation to make a point to everyone else. Not only do I remember how brutally those people got it in raps, but everyone seemed to get reprimanded. I particularly remember *a staff* yelling till she was red in the face at every guy in a rap addressing us as though guys were 100% responsible for initiating sex every time. Just because two people broke the agreement ALL the guys got battered. She blew up on us saying .."Don't even think of touching my girls." As well she would project her issues with abortions onto us, which was very uncomfortable and of course there was no defensive measure you could take. I, like most, never broke the sex agreement there yet I recall having to sit there and be talked to as though I did.

*I don't know what my deal is but I feel like if I mention a staff's name they will come to haunt me or something.*

On that note Liam, Mann is NOT Rudy Bentz.

" For many years I asked members of T-groups (group therapy) to engage in a "top secret" task in which they were asked to write, anonymously, on a slip of paper the one thing they would be most disinclined to share with the group. The secrets seem to be startlingly similar, with a couple of major themes predominating. The most common secret is a deep conviction of basic inadequacy- a feeling that one is basically incompetent, that one bluffs one's way through life. Next in frequency is a deep sense of interpersonal alienation- that, despite appearances, one really does not, or cannot, care for or love another person. The third most frequent category is some variety of sexual secret." - 'The Theory and Practice of Group Psychotherapy' by Irvin D. Yalom

Anyone remember getting asked, "What's the one thing you just can't tell anybody?"

I do know exactly which female staffer you're talking about with the abortion issues, Awake.

I wish some people had just kept their mouths shut about some really sick stuff noone needed to know.  Nobody's fault - the filters were all stripped away. It never put my friendships with them into doubt, but I never knew quite how to handle it.
In one of my first raps, a girl got reemed by someone in her dorm about excessive pubic hair shedding that clogged the shower drain. This poor girl was so humiliated and I felt so bad for her, but I didn't have the courage to stick up for her and tell the bitch off. Of course, I sort of picked up on the fact that taking her side against the indicter wasn't the way things were done around Cedu.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / Re: Rudy's new job
« on: July 28, 2008, 12:02:27 AM »
I was about to say WTF? but I realized you were responding to a quote from that Who guy. good luck with that.

Anybody google Rudy lately?
Here's the latest rock he crawled under:

Also, latest website he posted to, not super recent, but maybe you can leave a message to the Teachers College Record readers about what a shitbag he is and put his scholarly musings about Native Americans in perspective for them: ... omid=53693

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / Summit stretches.
« on: December 17, 2007, 12:18:09 AM »
For whatever reason I don't remember it being called 'stretches', but that could be the difference between Cedu and RMA.

I was superman. I did actually have fun with mine and had some good help with my costume. red spray painted Jordans for my super boots. I wrote some funny lines in my reporters notebook to say outloud and it got some laughs. I also kept pretending to be on the phone in the booth and talking to Batman about partying and doing Wonder Woman. (We didn't have the Wonder Woman character, or stretch, in our group.)
It now comes back to me that I had one of the easier characters and that some people had it really brutal. Like the Pooh character, we had two staff women going thru the propheets with us and one had a real weight issue. She was Pooh, and man could you tell she was in agony. She was usually pretty arrogant and condescending, but still nice. This just sunk her so low and broke her down. I'll never forget it. They really ripped on her.
It makes me think about some of the posts on here from former staff about behind the scenes political shit. I think maybe she had an epiphany and rebelled a little before the workshop and this was her comeuppance.

Guns?? Where the hell were you supposed to get guns? They must've stopped that at Cedu before my time. I don't remember the manicures or haircuts either.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / Re: When a soldier dies
« on: December 12, 2007, 01:54:31 AM »
"first off let me appologize for thinking you were pro bush.  and forgive me that i do not always read the posts closely enough.

however even in this post there are a few things i don't think are correct.  if i get heated it is because i feel strongly about these issues, but i do not feel threatened by the prospect of being wrong.  so let us discuss with boldness our ideas and see if we can't both come up with a clearer picture? :)"

I'm glad you feel that way. I was hoping not to have to end the debate and leave you to stew. I was ready to just agree to disagree because you seemed too emotionally charged over everything. My intention was not to personally attack you. I think we disagree, but can look at the facts at where we disagree, or just trade opinions. Good. I don't have time to pull out quoted facts tonight, but I have some and can come up with some hard quotes later.

For instance this:

"now here is where i start to have adverse reactions:

There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but by the time that was established, it was too late, we were already stuck in the mess.

see?  now that is just a lie of the regime.  plenty of people knew there were no weapons.  the un inspectors all said there was no evidence that there was imminent threat and thats why we had to lead the 'coalition of the 'willing'' without the help of the un in the first place.

democracy now had interviews the whole year they were trying to get us in there with people giving varied and irrefutable evidence that there was no possible way for saddam to have developped any nuclear arms programs due to the ongoing bombing and embargos that the us was already engaging in against iraq since like 1992.

the un had been inspecting iraq that whole time to make sure, and they knew it was impossible, but bush thought it would be funny to flip off the un, and go ahead and do what his dad's friends said to do anyway.  

and they wanted it to last forever so their buddies the rockafellers could sell guns to both sides, just like desert storm, just like vietnam.

so no, we didn't make a mistake and woops we're stuck there, we went in despite our knowledge for the profit of warmongers, and then, fuck you, get yourself out.  thats really really different, and the difference is weather or not bush and cheney should be impeached, cause if it was an accident, then no one is to blame, but if bush is to blame, history requires his impeachment or else the reign of his regime will be our own faults."

Bush had his own reasons for pulling the trigger on the starter pistol, I'll agree with that; and he was going to have the US go in regardless of the findings of various WMD inspections. He had his own personal agenda and his mind was made up.
Irregardless, although that seems like it ends any debate right there, it really is irrelevant to whether there were WMD or not.
You are dead on right that Iraqi scientists had little oppurtunity from Desert Storm to this war to develop new WMD.
But were they sitting on old stockpiles?
There were actually inspectors that felt that there was evidence that materials had been moved or access restricted to, that might prove the current existence of WMD. Namely, ricin, a crude element used in poison gas.
Iraqi guards were pretty comical in their attempts to stop the inspectors, but they stalled them enough to let scientists and their equipment slip away. A lot of this is in the accounts of Dr. David Kay, who was with all the inspection teams, UN and coalition led. (UNSCOM -United Nations Special Commission on Disarmament, UNMOVIC - United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission, and ISG - Iraq Survey Group. He also advised the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Iraq did in fact attempt nuclear programs several times, the closest they came was at Osirak nuclear facility. This alarmed Israel so much they destroyed it in an airstrike in 1981 and effectively shut the program down.

Chemical and biological wise, its believed that most of the stockpiles that were left were hastily destroyed while the inspectors were in other locations, or there is also some evidence that they were moved across the border to Syria, a fellow Ba'ath regime led nation.

Basically, by the time they had fully debriefed the inspection teams (ISG at that point), the military ball was already rolling, so to speak. Which is why it was too late. Also, final verification came about due to the actual invasion, when we could have forces in all suspect locations at once, without Iraqi interference. No more shell game, everything exposed.

" 'Yes, Saddam did do some beneficial things for Iraqi society. He did build schools, hospitals, universities. He also had torture centers, lavish palaces, chemical weapons factories and mass graves made. '

ok, so is that before or after he socialized oil in iraq?  when was he building schools, when was he gassing people, because my understanding is that he gassed people when he worked for the cia, and then he rebelled from them and started building schools and hospitals.  do you know where i can find a good timeline on that stuff?"

I will look for a timeline for you. That's the second time you've brought up Saddam socializing oil. Not sure where you're going with that. I guess the short answer is that he nationalized the Iraq Petroleum Company in June 1972 and kicked out the former owners - a consortium made up of BP, Shell, Esso, Mobil and CFP (French co.) That is when Iraq officially socialized their oil. These were American, British and French companies. In order to be sure he wasn't retaliated against economically or politically, he got Soviet promises of support.

Later, in the mid-80's, he would renounce the Soviets in order to get US support against Iran, which the Soviets initially refused to do. The worst trainwreck about that was that at one point in the Iran-Iraq war, the US and Soviets were both supporting BOTH sides. Remember the Iran-Contra scandal? US money, training and technology was helping both sides, while they were both fighting each other using Soviet planes, tanks and guns.)
So, Saddam never directly worked for the CIA, but he took their money, or any US Government money that he could get his hands on.
The schools and good hospitals were built in the Sunni homelands, near Tikrit, for HIS people - he never considered the Kurds or Shi'ites his people, even though they lived within Iraqi borders. As far as he and many from his tribe were concerned, the rest could fend for themselves. Any who disagreed were dealt with harshly, even Sunnis, if they showed political dissent.
He was gassing and killing from the moment he took power in the 70's, even when he was second or third in charge.

"see?  now that is just regime thinking, thats a total fallacy, they aren't dying so you or i don't have to, they are dying so that a few men will be made richer and given more lenience to kill and make slaves of anyone they choose.

we are told to feel guilty for not being soldiers ourselves, thats the larger message in that statement.

but it is not us who should feel guilty, it is the people who sent them to war in the first place.  i am not pro - military, in the same way that i am not anti - life by being pro - choice, i am anti - brainwashing, and the military endorses brainwashing its soldiers so that they dont feel empowered to say, 'no!! i will not do that!!! it's wrong!!,   i will not do that to another human being!!'  and it is for not saying that that we all criticize the nazi soldiers.

our soldiers should be treated differently, but now they need to resist, they need to drop out of the military, defect, revolt, there is a time for that, and it must be honored and encorporated into military culture for just these times, when the ruler is a liar and madman!

those soldiers aren't dying so i won't have to, they are dying at his whim, and so will i if i don't do something about him!  we all will!"

This is where I do get emotional, because I've been there. I signed up for economic reasons, some ideological reasons. Others just have no choice beyond the military.
Ultimately, though, they are volunteers, they knew what they were getting into and they know from the start that once the paper is signed there is no going back. They have a sense of duty and there are serious repurcussions for going AWOL, which is why most don't just say 'no'. Politics aside, which you'll find that many servicemen and women don't really care or follow politics that much.

So, they volunteered, you didn't - how is that your problem?, you may ask:
If no one volunteers, how would they fill the US Military?
with A DRAFT!!!
Would they draft women? Who knows in this day and age.
Hence, that is why I say that they die so you don't have to. Not because Iraq would come and invade here, if we didn't go over there, or some stupid shit like that. Simply and harshly put, they're warm bodies that volunteered, putting off a possible draft for the next few years.

"thats very interesting.  i don't want to read al jazeera because i am not sure i want the cia to crack into my computer and i am just a little too scared they will.  but if u say its safe i will check it out.  i would like to see the link.  

it makes me sick to think bush goes on national tv and tells everyone al jazeera is a terrorist newspaper when i think it is considered mainstream in the middle east.  is it?

as far as what i do and do not beleive i pay not enough attention i am sure.  but what i see on npr through fox i take with a grain of salt, and i try to pay extra attention to amy on democracy now.  i am not yet convinced we went to the moon.  i am fairly well convinced that the original thanksgiving scenario is pure fiction, why we decided to have a culture that lied about its genocide, who can tell, but i think its important that we change that.  i saw the towers go down on tv, and i watched that day as all those people got in front of all those cameras and talked about planes and explotions, i remember the dust and the people that went on tv talking about how that kind of dust was only a result of explosive devices, not burning airplane fuel and collapsing buildings.  i trust their testimonies, i do not trust the following broadcasts of official information that said there were no explosives.  i beleive the testimonies of the people who saw the hurricane heading to new orleans and called for evacuations.  i watched day after day as no help was sent by the military or private sector.  i watched as shortly after the hurricane those lands were auctioned off to the highest bidder as all those areas were declared destroyed and given to the federal gov't to dole out to the same few men who profit from the war in iraq.  i did not beleive the pathetic statements from the aftermath that claimed that there was nothing anyone could do.  it seems clear to me that something was done, those people lost their city.

There are certain facts of what has transpired that they can't deny and will faithfully report. Facts like that, and first hand experience, are what I base my knowledge on.
Still scratching my head on how you read into me being pro-Bush. Please go back and read my earlier post in this thread about benefits denied to vets."

sorry, i must have misunderstood.  :)  i do like to debate, and i sound heated, but i am sorry, i respect you, i hope that is clear.


It is clear, and I respect you. If anyone should be worried about the Government, its me. I was a part of it once and now I'm pretty against it. I've said some things earlier that might get me in trouble. You? You're just one of millions - small fish to fry. Exercise your rights. Here's those links: or

Don't be a victim of the very hype machine you rail against - They don't call out for Americans to be beheaded or anything, they just report the news from an Arab perspective.

New Orleans is a whole 'nother ball of wax.
I might have more to say later, but now its time for bed. Good Talk. Break!

In my dreams, I'm at some normal place like work or home, then somehow the flow of the dream puts me at Cedu as an adult. Like I'm searching all the rooms of the big house there for what I don't know. Going from the dining room all the way to the other end, the art/science room wing. For whatever reason, I have to stay away from the upstairs where the library and headmaster's office was. Like there's an evil presence up there.
Sometimes, I'm playing with my daughter and chasing after her and we end up running around the Pit. I get scared she'll fall in. And I can sense evil presences are watching from the balcony and the atrium office at the same time. I can understand the atrium office, but Tim Brace had his office up past the library and we got along pretty good. I read in the library a lot when I was there.
It's very fucked up. Way more vivid lately. I never actually see anyone there at Cedu, just feel their presence.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / you think I'm Pro-Bush??!
« on: December 11, 2007, 10:22:11 AM »
Quote from: ""alia23""
is this desert storm you are talking about here?

so, when did saddam socialize oil?  when we bombed iraq most recently in the 'war on terror' they had, despite our embargos, the most social services of any middle east country.  

it seems to me that saddam is more like castro than hitler, and it seems to me that despite castro's offenses his citizens are healthier, happier, and better educated than ours.  everyone except the poor desperate souls of guantanamo.

i think it is important when 'being informed' that one also remember that our administration, much like our past masters at cedu, rma and the like, lie frequently.

it cannot be overlooked that the status quo of our system is deception.  if it wasnt when jfk was assasinated, it is now.  and i fear for all our futures right now, this is not a wolf cry, this is the real deal and bush is just puppet and juliani is next in line, and if someone cuts, he will probably get shot before americans wake up and see what is going on.

or they will wake up now, and see what is actually happening all around us right now.

it is ironic that i am talking about this here.  i thought that of all people anyone who had experienced cedu would not be able to miss the blatant abuse of power taking place in this country right now.  but, that is exactly how they are doing it, everyone they are tricking is really actually getting tricked.  smart people like you beleive that our negotiations with saddam have been entirely financial and above board, and that all those records you read that are the official story are going to be true by virtue of being official, not only true but thorough of their analysis of the larger global and social factors.

so no, i have not read every document that the govt ever put out on that subject and i dont read every brief that comes out of the white house.  i watch what actually happens, and i dont believe anything anyone says, i only believe the things i actually see happen, and even those i barely believe.

so sure i could be completely wrong about everything i think, completely possible, but i also see it possible that every fact that you have ever read in the news or in any official document is shaded to the point of being either a lie, an accessory to a lie, or irrelevent to the larger truth.

so i must trust my own flawed eyes, and they tell me that bush is a puppet and the men who pull his strings are bent on world domination at the cost of any life, maybe even their own.

madness, just like the madness we saw at cedu.  maybe i am just projecting and i am totally wrong, but thats what i said when i told everyone that bush was lying to get us into iraq, and what they said when i said we would still be there 5 years later, and what they said to me when i said those countrywide loans are a baaad idea.

but whatever, you dont have to agree with me, and i do appreciate your knowledge.  so that was desert storm you were talking about?

Hmm, well, where do I start? First off, yes, I was talking about Desert Storm. Because of the current conflict being the second war that America has fought in Iraq, the first one in most 'official' records, or journalistic reports is being called the First Gulf War. But hey, call it Desert Storm, or the start of the shit storm, if you will. We all know what we're referencing.

Also, why would you say I'm only quoting official records aka Gov't records. The most recent thing I've read was by a British author called John Keegan. He is by no means pro-Bush. His researched account was written in a mostly non-biased manner. If anything, more critical of American policy than not. (He was NOT an embedded journalist, which would definitely cloud his judgement)

I'm no supporter of our current regime. I call it a regime instead of government, because they weren't really chosen by the people and they will try by any means to stay in power long after using up legal avenues. And they will try to get the country involved in their schemes. Of course Bush lied. He lies all the time. He makes sure people lie for him so he can directly deny it.
There were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but by the time that was established, it was too late, we were already stuck in the mess.
Yes, Saddam did do some beneficial things for Iraqi society. He did build schools, hospitals, universities. He also had torture centers, lavish palaces, chemical weapons factories and mass graves made. Every leader does good things for his people to be seen as a great leader, but that doesn't offset killing thousands of your own people because they might be a political threat to you.

Apparently you missed that second post. The one where I called Bush and his cronies criminals. Which makes me wonder if you're hearing what you want to hear and begging for an argument.
Someone can be pro-US military and anti-US government, it is possible. Personally, I don't see how you can't be when some young American serviceman or woman is dying today in the desert needlessly so you don't have to.
There's a punk band from Pittsburgh called Anti-Flag. They seem to have that same problem separating the common soldier from policies made by corrupt Government officials. They are the modern version of the Vietnam-era hippies that screamed baby killer at any soldier they saw. That attitude shouldn't bother me so much, but it does.

Alia, you are right to not trust official government records.
Coming from someone who worked with Military Intelligence and Psychological Operations, I know firsthand how the truth can be distorted. I think you may have gone overboard though on your mistrust of every printed and recorded word.
How can you form an opinion or know what happened at all if you don't trust anything you hear or see? It's hard not to hit info overload in this day and age, but to give you some pointers, if you look at both official and journalist accounts and compare them, then pull out the few facts that all accounts might agree upon. You can maybe form an opinion about those facts. Read and watch foreign media if you want. Europe is very anti-America right now and there tend to be more English ready copy available through European press. Although, if you can, read some translations of news outlets from the Arab world. (I will get you some links if you want. Try googling Al-Jazeera)
There are certain facts of what has transpired that they can't deny and will faithfully report. Facts like that, and first hand experience, are what I base my knowledge on.
Still scratching my head on how you read into me being pro-Bush. Please go back and read my earlier post in this thread about benefits denied to vets.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / a few words about america
« on: December 07, 2007, 12:21:01 PM »
Also, for the record, I'm a US Army Spec Ops veteran with service in the Balkans. I think the way benefits are getting yanked from returning vets is criminal and the people responsible should be tied to a remote controlled Humvee and driven around Nasiriyah until they get an RPG shot up their ass.
Vote this November and bring down the criminal regime.

CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones / a few words about america
« on: December 07, 2007, 12:16:11 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""alia23""
Quote from: ""drlongjon""
Quote from: ""alia23""
(and just for the record, i think the cia did 911, and i think al queda works for the cia, bush sr. was head of the cia, hussein was trained by the cia, and the real reason, for those who don't know, that hussein was so hated by the us was because he socialized their oil industry and wasn't being the us puppet anymore, thats why we started bombing him the first time in dessert storm.  but no one talks about that either.)  

Somebody has a serious problem here. A little paranoid are we? Bush is too stupid to pull that shit off and the media would have found out and turned it into a pulitzer prize story, they never shut up and would put a broadcast up telling our enemies we are on the way over to bomb them if they could. Go read/watch some documentaries on the way Muslims beat their wives and mutilate their daughters. If that's how they treat family, why wouldn't they want to kill us? Muslims are to blame for todays problems, END of DISCUSSION. Stop blaming the U.S. Be proud to be American and proud of the good we have done in the world. How much good do the Muslim countries ever do, answer: none.


well, ok, i guess i wont respond then :)

Technically speaking, Al Queda DID work for the CIA. The US used to fund them in their "holy war" against the Russians and then their independent nation-state.Back then, the official US term for al queda was freedom fighters.
Count on U.S citizen ignorance and memory capacity of a goldfish to forget that, and some even scarier shit that's available for public consumption in the official records if you care to look.

Why should anyone be "proud of being an Americanâ€

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