Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 11:00:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 11:45:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 11:59:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 12:02:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 12:20:00 PM
Because he is 17 1/2, he can wait out his time until he turns 18, which he will most likely do. He is at a lower risk of brainwashing than the younger students, because he has a 'hope' to look forward to due to his age. He will not receive any help at SCL, only discipline, humiliation, and quite possibly physical and emotional abuse. He sounds like the type that might spend time up in the hobbit, and in worksheets, for not complying with the program.
When he turns 18 and wishes to leave the program is when you can REALLY help. The program (via his parents) will offer an exit plan ranging from nothing but the clothes on his back, to possibly some cash and a ride to the closest town. Either way, this is when you can really help him. Otherwise, he will be pressured by scare tactics to stay in the 18 year old program. It is scary to face walking down the street into homelessness at 18!
Somehow, you need to get letters into him. This will only usually happen if his parents allow this. The best way is to slip in your letters with their letters, because they write a code on the letter or something, or put a sticker on it, I'm not positive. In that letter instruct him to keep quiet about you helping him after he leaves to prevent any actions against you. Give him your phone number and tell him you will wait for his call on his 18th birthday, and you will wire him money and a train ticket, etc. This will give him immense hope, and he will certainly feel better about the future. This is one idea at least. At the very least, it might keep him from hurting himself or running.
You say he escaped his transport, went up on a bridge and threatened suicide, so he should have been placed under a 72 hour watch at a psychiatric facility. Not shipped to a private teen prison with the occasional large group brainwash session to boot. It's crazy his parents believe this place is the best for him... utterly insane.
It reminds me very much of my own situation. Unfortunately, he is in for a shitty experience, especially because he sounds like the type which will reject the program's flawed ideology. At least he will remain 'himself', but he will get some major shit for 'not working the program' and such. He can just wait his time out, but the damage done to him, his family, and everyone who knew him will already be done. This is a fucked up situation for all involved... accept WWASP, they are making out just fine.
Good luck.
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 03, 2005, 01:21:00 PM
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On 2005-12-03 09:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"what right do you think you have to undermine the decision of this young man's parents? They have obviously placed this juvenile into a program for a reason, after all "mother knows best." You don't need to worry either, SCL is a wonderful place, I myself graduated from there in 1999 and it truly changed my life. You dont need to worry about him running away from their either, it's in the middle of nowhere, and they always catch the runners! :grin: "
Every right. As long they take no illegal steps, they are well within their rights to help this young man exercise his own legal rights. In fact, it would be wrong to stand by and watch as another citizen is denied their rights.
His parents are undermining his efforts to work with an attorney to develop a proper defense.
I have a question. If he has been charged with a felony as an adult, then he must be out on bail. Are you allowed to leave the State when on bail?
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 02:01:00 PM
Post by: Troll Control on December 03, 2005, 02:47:00 PM
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On 2005-12-03 09:02:00, Anonymous wrote:It must not have changed your life that much, as it's patently obvious you're still on powerful drugs. More than likely, you're a program troll...
"You don't need to worry either, SCL is a wonderful place, I myself graduated from there in 1999 and it truly changed my life."
Pay no mind to this fool. It's a waist of time and energy.
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 03:25:00 PM
1342 Blue Slide Road Thompson Falls Montana 59873-0000
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 06:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 08:52:00 PM
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On 2005-12-04 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The kid is being charged as an adult with a felony and your concern is for the kid? What about the victims and the community? "
And his parents..are they insane>? I think they are trying to do their best,and sending him to SCL may keep him out of prison. SOunds like you do not have all the information.
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
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On 2005-12-04 12:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Try writing to him using his parents names and address as the return address on the envelope. On the address write John Doe C/O spring crrek lodge
1342 Blue Slide Road Thompson Falls Montana 59873-0000"
I thought there was some type of secret code that is connected to the return address? I will try though - thank you.
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2005, 09:45:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2005, 10:21:00 AM
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On 2005-12-05 06:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Your daughter was in the car with the kids? Aren't you concerned about the company your daughter keeps? I hope you will keep a closer eye on her and she doesn't end up in the same situation!"
Yes, very concerned. We are keeping a very close eye on her. People make bad choices throughout there life - I don't condemn them for that, as long as it is not a pattern.
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 06, 2005, 12:11:00 AM
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On 2005-12-04 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The kid is being charged as an adult with a felony and your concern is for the kid? What about the victims and the community? "
Are you suggesting we should NOT be concerned for the welfare of a 17 year old in trouble?
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 06, 2005, 12:17:00 AM
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I think they are trying to do their best,and sending him to SCL may keep him out of prison. SOunds like you do not have all the information."
You'll need to explain this one. How does sending him out of state (a violation of law in itself) help him stay out of prison?
Are you suggesting they are hiding him there? That would be illegal and of no help at all.
He will have to return for the hearing. Maybe they are taking a chance that the judge will accept SCL as an alternative sentence. Since he is being charged as an adult, this seems unlikely.
Under the circumstances, his age, the legal issues, it makes no sense to send him to SCL.
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2005, 09:14:00 AM
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On 2005-12-05 21:17:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Quote
He will have to return for the hearing. Maybe they are taking a chance that the judge will accept SCL as an alternative sentence. Since he is being charged as an adult, this seems unlikely.
Under the circumstances, his age, the legal issues, it makes no sense to send him to SCL."
I agree with you. I am not sure they are planning on bringing him back for his pretrial - I am hoping they do so he can explain to the judge himself what his decision is. As of right now, there has been no permission requested from the judge to send him out of state. They just did it. I am waiting to hear back from the courts as to what their intentions are regarding this mess. Hopefully, the judge will agree with us and bring him back. Thanks for your input.
I am not even sure the SCL knows about his legal issues, or if it even matters to them.
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2005, 10:43:00 AM
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On 2005-12-04 18:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are you telling me that by going to this "school" is going to keep him out of prison?? This is his first offense, and if the case was not dismissed for illegal search, he would have probably gotten probation and some type of fine. I do know everything about this case, since my daughter was in the car with the other kids. It could have been her driving her car and she would be in the same situation - but I would never send her off to a place that discourages outside communication. That is INSANE.
"
I'm confused: was the case dismissed?
Are you sure it could have been your daughter, and she would have done the same thing as the boy did?
If all the kids are equally culpable here, why do you support continuing such a destructive group dynamic?
Why do you imagine that scl is a place that discourages outside communication? It may be that communication with members of unhealthy relationships is discouraged, but it sounds as though parents can communicate.
I'd have to agree with the earlier post: How on earth are you qualified to interfere with this family? I don't mean to be disrespectful, but such unmitigated meddling seems insane to me.
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2005, 04:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2005, 06:19:00 PM
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On 2005-12-06 13:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I call b.s. on this whole story! It goes in circles. He is being tried, it is dismissed, illegal search, pretrial, just a bunch of made stuff that talks in circles. I'll bet there is no kid going to scl, no story here except some lonely looney wanting to get people riled up."
I apologize for any misunderstanding. I guess I didn't explain it clearly enough. Yes, he is already at SCL, he was "escorted" there on 11/30/05. Yes, he is being charged with two felonies. If he was here for is pretrial on December 15th, the case might be dismissed due to an illegal search. This is not made up - I am offended that anyone would think I would do something like that. In fact, I wish it was made up. This is truly a nightmare for all involved, especially Alex.
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 07, 2005, 12:51:00 AM
It looks to me like the parents are trying to hide him. It is a stupid move. He will either be extradited, or found guilty in abstentia. He will become a fugitive.
Also, if he is prevented from attending his own hearing against his will, there must be some legal repercussions for those preventing his attendance; kidnapping, false imprisonment, maybe?
Anyway, you will find out on the 15th.
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 09:04:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 11:00:00 AM
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On 2005-12-08 06:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You may think his parents are doing the right thing but lets say we send ur child there. you later find out that him/her had committed suicide for being abused. Wouldn't u be the bad parent then. :silly:
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2005, 06:27:00 PM
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. . . and the real question: Do they teach spelling or grammar there?
no they teach you to hate yourself. :cry:
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
Are you forgettting about the girl who fell off the trunk of a car he was driving and ended up in a coma. Maybe you were not aware of the fact that his parents paid a lot of money to an attorney to get those felony charges dropped because of a "technicality". Or maybe you are
forgetting that he rolled and totaled his father's truck a month before that. From what I have been told he has been skipping school, has lousy grades and hangs out with a group of gothic losers
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 10:28:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 12:29:00 PM
Should of just let him take responsibility for his crime, he might actually have learned something that way.
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 12:39:00 PM
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On 2005-12-13 09:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ironic isn't it? The parents spend a fortune to take responsiblity OFF their son for hurting that girl. Then they spend a fortune trying to get him to be RESPONSIBLE. Doesn't make much sense to me.
Should of just let him take responsibility for his crime, he might actually have learned something that way."
I agree! But this way, it makes them feel better about themselves, thinking they did everything they could to "help" him. This way they carry no guilt, and I guess they sleep better at night.
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 06:02:00 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#145068 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12501&forum=44&Sort=U&start=0#145068)
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 09:55:00 PM
And I believe in my right mind the parents did all they can. And I'm sure they sleep better at night knowing that their son is no where near some gothic losers that start cults and think there cool! Instead of being a normal friend they were starting his life down the wrong path. Being his friend for 10+ years, I think I know better than some girl who met him 6 months ago. :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 10:28:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 10:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-13 18:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lets just say this to end it. Worry about your own kids. Are these your kids? No. Then dont worry about it. It's as simple as that. The parents have the right to do what ever they want. Also, get the facts straight before you start talking trash. You people are fricken stupid. Your not helping this situation out at all. Your just making it worse. Yea, lets use fake names..That's a good one...No.
And I believe in my right mind the parents did all they can. And I'm sure they sleep better at night knowing that their son is no where near some gothic losers that start cults and think there cool! Instead of being a normal friend they were starting his life down the wrong path. Being his friend for 10+ years, I think I know better than some girl who met him 6 months ago. :wave: "
Good friend for 10+ years? Good job! You did a great job!
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 10:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-13 18:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lets just say this to end it. Worry about your own kids. Are these your kids? No. Then dont worry about it. It's as simple as that. The parents have the right to do what ever they want. Also, get the facts straight before you start talking trash. You people are fricken stupid. Your not helping this situation out at all. Your just making it worse. Yea, lets use fake names..That's a good one...No.
And I believe in my right mind the parents did all they can. And I'm sure they sleep better at night knowing that their son is no where near some gothic losers that start cults and think there cool! Instead of being a normal friend they were starting his life down the wrong path. Being his friend for 10+ years, I think I know better than some girl who met him 6 months ago. :wave: "
Will you please do a favor for me and define gothic losers?
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 11:11:00 PM
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On 2005-12-13 19:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Will you please do a favor for me and define gothic losers?"
::eek3::
Post by: Anonymous on December 13, 2005, 11:29:00 PM
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On 2005-12-13 18:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lets just say this to end it. Worry about your own kids. Are these your kids? No. Then dont worry about it. It's as simple as that. The parents have the right to do what ever they want. Also, get the facts straight before you start talking trash. You people are fricken stupid. Your not helping this situation out at all. Your just making it worse. Yea, lets use fake names..That's a good one...No.
And I believe in my right mind the parents did all they can. And I'm sure they sleep better at night knowing that their son is no where near some gothic losers that start cults and think there cool! Instead of being a normal friend they were starting his life down the wrong path. Being his friend for 10+ years, I think I know better than some girl who met him 6 months ago. :wave: "
Since when did this post become a battle of trying to bash one person and then another. Is a mature conversation possible at all? I don't get it. Any child sent there is a person, which means that they are there getting hurt in some way. They are not dogs to be hit when they don't take the command given to them and perform it correctly. When did everyone lose sight of this. Once they get placed into that prison, it's not like they automatically lose every emotion they once had. They still can hurt and feel pain. And to have that pain that they will carry for the rest of their life brought upon them by their parents,the same ones that should be there by their side to help them through it by talking and not shipping away, will be with them forever. It will never just go away one day. They are not property to do whatever you want with and to just sign over to the highest bidder. By doing so, you sign over their life and possible happiness. You sign over the complete founding step of a family, togetherness. You need to work through times like these together, as a team. Not pay someone else to do it for you.
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 09:03:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 10:18:00 AM
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On 2005-12-14 06:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree and his parents wanted to work with him as a team. How could they do that when they have these other people interfering in his life and making his decisions for him? Unfortunately we are not just talking about kids but the girlfriends mother. Unfortunately, he had to be sent away to get him away from these people. what makes this mother so knowledgeable when her own daughter is doing drugs, lying and worshipping demons. I think she needs to clean her own house."
I couldn't agree more. Worry about your own kids before you go and try to raise someone elses kids. :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
This is interesting link:
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancipation/entry.htm (http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancipation/entry.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 10:47:00 AM
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On 2005-12-14 07:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This could all be true, but doesn't the fact that the kid was "abducted" and shipped off against his will mean anything? He is still a human being, and nobody deserves to be treated that way. It goes against all human rights.
This is interesting link:
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancipation/entry.htm (http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/emancipation/entry.htm)"
Abducted? Why dont you get your facts straight lady. :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 10:53:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 10:54:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 11:21:00 AM
NOT an excuse, just true.Most parents wouldnt pay to hurt their kids.You could never get me to believe that. The program seminar staff, marketers etc all lied over and over.
Common sense should have prevailed!It doesnt always.
Please dont JUMP down my throat. Expeierce has taught me well enough what a huge error was made.
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 12:02:00 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent)
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 03:00:00 PM
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On 2005-12-14 06:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree and his parents wanted to work with him as a team. How could they do that when they have these other people interfering in his life and making his decisions for him? Unfortunately we are not just talking about kids but the girlfriends mother. Unfortunately, he had to be sent away to get him away from these people. what makes this mother so knowledgeable when her own daughter is doing drugs, lying and worshipping demons. I think she needs to clean her own house."
Why, once again is there so much negative words used? And who are you to know so much about both of these families to where you can say such terrible things? From what I have read throughout these posts nobody has said anything mean and directed at specific people, aside from the school itself, until you got on here. There is no need for such immaturity.
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 06:07:00 PM
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On 2005-12-14 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:::bangin::
"uh - oh ... another baghead moderator has emerged! lol!"
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 06:19:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 06:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 06:25:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 14, 2005, 07:49:00 PM
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On 2005-12-14 15:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"please tell....where did you get your information from? Something negative can be said for any program that deals with behavior problems. "
Just do your homework. There is information everywhere if you just take some time to read up on it. Listen to the individuals who have lived it. The bad experiences much outweigh the good. There is plenty of credible resources if you just investigate.
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 14, 2005, 11:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-13 18:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Lets just say this to end it. Worry about your own kids. Are these your kids? No. Then dont worry about it. It's as simple as that.
And I believe in my right mind the parents did all they can.
It's not that simple and we will choose who we worry about, not you, not this man's parents. We will show concern and have every right to do so. It is every American's responsibility to safeguard the liberty and legal rights of all Americans.
These dedicated (to the Cult) parents did not place him at SCL to keep him from negative influences, unless you consider the United States Judiciary a negative influence. They are hiding him, period.
Will he attend his hearing tomorrow? If not, the parents should be arrested and charged for preventing him from appearing.
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 15, 2005, 12:01:00 AM
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On 2005-12-14 15:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I think negative words are being used because this is a very negative and emotional situation for all involved. I am also a family friend who has known and loved Alex since he was a baby. Do you not think that the decision to send him away wasn't the hardest thing these parents had to do? Do you not think everything in their power was tried beforehand? Removing him from the powerful influences of certain people was the only choice left. :em: "
Bullshit! They sent him away to hide him from the law. He has a hearing to attend. Is he going to be there?
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 15, 2005, 12:18:00 AM
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On 2005-12-13 06:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You say people make bad choices in their lives as long as it is not a pattern. I know of the boy you are talking about. From what I have been told he has a pattern of making bad choices.
Are you forgettting about the girl who fell off the trunk of a car he was driving and ended up in a coma. Maybe you were not aware of the fact that his parents paid a lot of money to an attorney to get those felony charges dropped because of a "technicality". Or maybe you are
forgetting that he rolled and totaled his father's truck a month before that. From what I have been told he has been skipping school, has lousy grades and hangs out with a group of gothic losers"
If this post is true, it shows his parents are completely lacking in integrity. They pay to cover up one crime and then blame the kid when he learns he can get away with this behavior. They created their own monster. Nice job. They deserve to lose every penny the lawyers and WWASPS sucks out of their hypocritical hides.
Kudos to letting him use the truck.
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 15, 2005, 12:31:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-14 06:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree and his parents wanted to work with him as a team. How could they do that when they have these other people interfering in his life and making his decisions for him? Unfortunately we are not just talking about kids but the girlfriends mother. Unfortunately, he had to be sent away to get him away from these people. what makes this mother so knowledgeable when her own daughter is doing drugs, lying and worshipping demons. I think she needs to clean her own house."
Ah, the real motive emerges! Lock a young man up because you don't like his girlfriend. Stupid move. Such treatment will only make them more determined to be together.
His parents need to learn their place and let him make his own decisions. They are his decisions now, not theirs. Yes, yes, I know he is not quite 18, but his parents are forgetting that he is almost 18. He no longer belongs to them. They are fools to think they can force him back into being an obedient child again. It is too late for that.
Gothic losers that start cults and girlfriends that worhip demons? Are you posting in the right century?
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 09:26:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 09:37:00 AM
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On 2005-12-15 06:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree. Let the man/boy, suffer his own consequences at this age. Save the money! Tell him to get a job, support himself, and move out if he can't abide by the rules of the house. He is old enough. He can learn to ride the bus. He doesn't need a car. Give him some clothes and maybe first month's rent on an apartment. Maybe even give him the same amount that one month at SCL would cost. That would probably support him for a couple of months unless he blows it on drugs. Then if he does... oh well. You tried! If he goes to jail...at least there will be a roof over his head, he will get meals, and forced to study for a high school equivelancy. These parents seem to need boundaries and need to stick with them. Tough love at this age will work, at least for the remaining family. The young man will have to make his own choices on how he chooses to behave and what kind of life he wants. Just make sure you contact an attorney and make sure it is legal in your state to let your 17 year old out on his own. Document EVERYTHING! Pray hard and good luck."
How I wish my parents were as wise as you. Funny thing is, I ended up on my own when I left at 18 when I took my exit plan. My dad could have saved a lot of money... :eek:
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 10:09:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 10:39:00 AM
How about emancipation? Don't most states allow this? (especially with parents approval)
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 11:09:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 12:55:00 PM
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On 2005-12-15 08:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not until 17"
In california you only have to be 14.
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 12:56:00 PM
http://www.saccourt.com/family/emancipa ... pation.asp (http://www.saccourt.com/family/emancipation/emancipation.asp)
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 01:02:00 PM
http://www.jlc.org/home/mediacenter/fac ... ipUSA.html (http://www.jlc.org/home/mediacenter/factsheets/emancipUSA.html)
alaskans.. you gotta be 16.
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 02:12:00 PM
look under emancipation facts
http://www.amber-net.org/amberstatutes.htm (http://www.amber-net.org/amberstatutes.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 02:45:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 03:21:00 PM
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On 2005-12-15 07:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"See, the problem is, if the rebellious child is under 17, programs often become the only option to spare the rest of the family after everything else has been tried. From what I have seen, most of the parents are not only trying to help the rebellious child, but are also trying to protect the other children. Once the child is 17, in our state, they may leave the home and the parents are not held legally responsible for the childs behavior. "
From what I understand this boy is 17.5. Definitely not under 17 if you ask me. So, in other words, what are his parents gaining by sending him away for 6 months?
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 07:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 07:53:00 PM
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On 2005-12-15 16:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It will only make it worse. Please come back here to this thread in 9 months after he's been out for a couple months, and tell me I'm wrong. "
Yea, keep us posted on his remarkable improvement. By the way, did he attend his trial today?
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 08:06:00 PM
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On 2005-12-15 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:What then do you do with a young man who wont follow simple house rules or the law and is hellbent on destroying himself? What about the others in the family who have to live with his destructive behavior and the consequences?
"Quote
On 2005-12-15 16:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It will only make it worse. Please come back here to this thread in 9 months after he's been out for a couple months, and tell me I'm wrong. "
Yea, keep us posted on his remarkable improvement. By the way, did he attend his trial today?"
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 08:21:00 PM
Quote
What then do you do with a young man who wont follow simple house rules or the law and is hellbent on destroying himself? What about the others in the family who have to live with his destructive behavior and the consequences?
I can't answer those questions, I'm not a parent. What I can point out is that in my personal experience, WWASP was not what it was advertised, my parents felt ripped off in the end after spending tens of thousands of dollars, and I experienced torture by anyone's definition of the word. Granted not everyone ends up in isolation with a weirdo staff, but everyone at least gets a healthy dose of emotional abuse and brainwashing, and cult like treatment (intimidation, misinformation, etc). Since I am not in a position to tell you what to do, I can only offer my advice on what not to do, and that is to avoid WWASP and PROVO programs. Why do I specify these two? Because I was at both, and feel I have the right to comment. I will let others tell you about other schools, and whether they are good or bad. And don't think it's just me. There are hundreds of us in a myspace.com group alone. Think how many are out there who haven't signed on to that one particular website. The least someone can do is try not to make things worse. Good luck.
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 09:37:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 11:18:00 PM
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On 2005-12-15 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yea, keep us posted on his remarkable improvement. By the way, did he attend his trial today?"
As for the trial, no he didn't. His parents' attorney (he can't be considered Alex's for he never even told the poor kid his rights let alone act like a real attorney and tell his client his options aside from this school or prison, and was fired by Alex, but, his parents re-hired him) came in and told the judge his client couldn't make it and needed to reschedule. The reschedule date is for January 31st. And pray tell, exactly how long can you postpone a court date? How many more games of ring-around-the-rosy are we going to have to play before somebody begins to catch on?
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 15, 2005, 11:41:00 PM
Quote
As for the trial, no he didn't. His parents' attorney (he can't be considered Alex's for he never even told the poor kid his rights let alone act like a real attorney and tell his client his options aside from this school or prison, and was fired by Alex, but, his parents re-hired him) came in and told the judge his client couldn't make it and needed to reschedule. The reschedule date is for January 31st. And pray tell, exactly how long can you postpone a court date? How many more games of ring-around-the-rosy are we going to have to play before somebody begins to catch on?
Like I said, the parents have zero integrity. They shield Alex from taking responsibility and being accountable for this own actions and lock him in a private prison that advertises itself as a place where kids are taught to take responisbility and be accountable. These control freak hypocrites and WWASPS are perfect for each other. With parents like these, Alex never had a chance.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-12-15 20:43 ]
Post by: Anonymous on December 15, 2005, 11:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 12:19:00 AM
Every current law needs to be reviewed and new laws need to be made for the complete, humane, and benefit of the kids. This all should be reviewed by non-biased lawyers, legislators, and representatives of all sorts. By unbiased I mean not brainwashed or paid-off in any which way. Yes some these kids have problems, but brainwashing and intimidation of all sorts needs to end, NOW. There needs to be proper guidelines specifically defining what can and connot happen no matter how problem-ridden a kid is, no matter what country they are in. They are USA citizens, kids, kids some of who just need time and the right environment to see the light... nothing like which goes on in these "programs."
This effort for the good of humanity will take you, me, and every good hearted person to step up and not put up with anymore of this ridiculous crap that we face every day in many forms, but specifically in terms of human rights and "programs."
Keep spreading the truthful word, keep researching the truth about what goes on, keep sharing it, write representatives or get in contact with who you can, use your powers: if you are a writer, reporter, or newscaster, get and honest story out.
#My suggestion is that we set up a web site focusuing on human rights and the acts against it, specifically these "progams." Through this specific site (which should be dedicated to the truth, include detailed information regarding other options for parents and their kids besides "programs" and may include selling t-shirts and coffee mugs supporting the site) good people will be able to share information and more easily progress in our effort. There are many possibilities. We need an effort, web designers, supporters, people knowlegale in law and research. The truth must be spread, changes need to be made.
Anyone with me?
[email protected]
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 01:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 10:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There was nothing wrong with him for 17 years...he was acting find untill he met the wrong people, which I dunno was 2 years ago?"
Oh, so I guess dipping into his mom's pot stash and Vicodin script when he was 13 doesn't mean anything, right? Or when he started smoking cigarrettes at 12? Or smoking pot everyday over the summer in 9th and 10th grade with a couple friends named Ed and Chuck? And, oh, the stories I've heard from the school Arts Academy, not just from him, but from a few friends that he met there that I've spoken with personally. Probably the same ones that were in jail with him for 6 days...guess his parents know how to pick THE BEST schools, right?
And by the way, "until" has only one L.
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 02:27:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 02:40:00 PM
I am sure you will try to turn it all around to justify what you are doing but the bottom line is you should worry about your daughter and leave other peoples kids alone. Alex has a loving family and has had a better life then most so don't you worry about it.
Alex's Aunt :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 03:02:00 PM
I am sure you will try to turn it all around to justify what you are doing but the bottom line is you should worry about your daughter and leave other peoples kids alone. Alex has a loving family and has had a better life then most so don't you worry about it.
One of Alex's Aunts :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 03:04:00 PM
out of it. :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 03:04:00 PM
I find it quite entertaining how one can brush off so easily the post containing history of his mothers drug problem too. And from what I remember, Alex was willing to come home on a Friday night but his mother called and said no come tomorrow instead. Then when he was home, everyone pretended like like nothing happenned and everything was fien. No discussion was had.
And how does one assume that telling Alex to get a different lawyer so he is not biased telling him to beat the system. I would think of that as trying to get the system to work for you. I would assume that his parents are trying to beat the system by using a biased lawyer and hiding him in a different state. Also working it out as a family must mean shipping him away for someone else to deal with and only associate with him through letters.
Anyone that wants to worry about the situation can worry about it as numerous other people on this forum have stated.
And a great life definitely includes a mother who put him down sarcastically his whole life and a father who was there but never took an interest. That's what I call love alright...
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 03:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 04:15:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 04:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 13:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"of course you believe everything a teenager tells you about their parents. open your eyes to all of the lies and manipulation"
Wht exactly, pray tell, are all the lies and manipulation??
I can see you're the perfect program parents already...lies, manipulation? You haven't even been to a seminar and you seem to be able to use their vocabulary perfect! Congratulations...no training needed for you. Maybe you can get a job working for WWASPS and then you won't have to pay for his abuse AND you can give it to him yourselves!
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 05:00:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 05:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:Again, please get your facts straight
" Unfortunately the bridge incident is true. He told us himself, and so did the escort. The vadalism was quite obviously someone else considering Ashley worked that night and then was home with her mother and father all night. Granted the dealer worked with Ashley, but Alex met him all on his own.
I find it quite entertaining how one can brush off so easily the post containing history of his mothers drug problem too. And from what I remember, Alex was willing to come home on a Friday night but his mother called and said no come tomorrow instead. Then when he was home, everyone pretended like like nothing happenned and everything was fien. No discussion was had.
And how does one assume that telling Alex to get a different lawyer so he is not biased telling him to beat the system. I would think of that as trying to get the system to work for you. I would assume that his parents are trying to beat the system by using a biased lawyer and hiding him in a different state. Also working it out as a family must mean shipping him away for someone else to deal with and only associate with him through letters.
Anyone that wants to worry about the situation can worry about it as numerous other people on this forum have stated.
And a great life definitely includes a mother who put him down sarcastically his whole life and a father who was there but never took an interest. That's what I call love alright..."
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 05:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 14:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteAgain, please get your facts straight"
On 2005-12-16 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Unfortunately the bridge incident is true. He told us himself, and so did the escort. The vadalism was quite obviously someone else considering Ashley worked that night and then was home with her mother and father all night. Granted the dealer worked with Ashley, but Alex met him all on his own.
I find it quite entertaining how one can brush off so easily the post containing history of his mothers drug problem too. And from what I remember, Alex was willing to come home on a Friday night but his mother called and said no come tomorrow instead. Then when he was home, everyone pretended like like nothing happenned and everything was fien. No discussion was had.
And how does one assume that telling Alex to get a different lawyer so he is not biased telling him to beat the system. I would think of that as trying to get the system to work for you. I would assume that his parents are trying to beat the system by using a biased lawyer and hiding him in a different state. Also working it out as a family must mean shipping him away for someone else to deal with and only associate with him through letters.
Anyone that wants to worry about the situation can worry about it as numerous other people on this forum have stated.
And a great life definitely includes a mother who put him down sarcastically his whole life and a father who was there but never took an interest. That's what I call love alright..."
What are the facts then? I would like to know them.
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 05:28:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 05:34:00 PM
Granted they might not have known it in the beginning when they had him kidnapped, but now they do. It's right in their faces and are choosing to do nothing about it except fight with someone who is trying to do the right thing, which is give a child back his human rights, or atleast make his parents understand the danger their son is in at this school.
If all of the things on this site are fake as his family members so very think, then they won't have to look very hard to find it somewhere else on the internet. There are whole organizations made to shut these places down and if it was just this girl and her family making it all up I don't think they would exist so predominantly. I don't think senators would be trying to pass bills to stop the abduction of kids.
If his family cares about his well-being at all, then he wouldn't still be at SCL. It's that simple. And, those are the facts.
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 05:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 14:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a question. Did you actually speak with the escort service or did you hear this from your daughter?"
Yes, his name was Russ, from 2nd Chance Transport Service.
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 06:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 08:16:00 PM
Alex has been moved to a safe place. Good luck with your own family. I will pray for all of us
Vampirefreaks.com When_You_Scream is her daughter
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 08:32:00 PM
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This is the story of a young man named Alex Azzopardi. He used to attend utica high school and some of you may know him. About a month ago, he was arrested and is being charged with 2 felonies, on account of being the driver of the car pulled over.
When this all came to a head, his parents refused to allow him to attend school and kept him locked up in the household, unable for him to leave. The days passed and he finally decided to wake up one morning and walk to school on his own without their permission.
When he got back home after going to school his parents told him that if he wanted to go to school, he would have to find somewhere else to live. This is where I came in; he stayed with me for about a week.
Then on his court date November 21st, he was told he had to move back home. He refused and left. His parents notified the judge and Alex took off. He ran into traffic in the hopes of a car hitting him. He was then led back and taken away in a cop car. He spent the next week in the Macomb County Jail.
His parents then decided to bail him out, but only after he agreed to attend a 3 month rehabilitation program. He said yes and they got him out. What he wanted for himself was to keep attending his senior year and put himself into Maplegrove as an intensive out-patient. His parents wouldn?t have that and said this ?school? was the only option. They never even told him the name of it.
Well, after numerous heated arguments with his parents, he believed he won. The last night I was with him, November 29th, we spent the whole night working on our homework we?d missed. He was up till 2 am working on it.
November 30th I was woken up by a phone call at 6 am from his house. All I heard was yelling, screaming, and crashing noises. I figured I?d see him in school and it was just another argument.
Come to find he was being woken up and handcuffed by paid ?escorts? his parents hired from Spring Creek Hill to take him away. I never even got to say good-bye. The reason I know this is because on that day they made a stop in Washington to change planes. Alex broke away from the escorts and bolted through the airport to outside. They found him on a bridge ready to jump if he couldn?t call me to tell me what happened to him. I received that call at 11:30 pm.
From his previous court date on November 21st it was rescheduled to December 15th. The judge was never notified of his parents sending him out of state and he is now considered to be breaking bond and fleeing the state if he does not show up. If something isn?t done about this then a warrant will be out for his arrest and the bondsman will have to go retrieve him from the school.
This school, Spring Creek Lodge locatd in Thompson Falls Montana, is known for raping and molesting the students, high suicide rates and physically and emotionally abusing the students. They have helicopters circling the ?school? and dogs on the premises trained to run down anyone who tries to escape. There is no contact with the outside world other than a few letters to the parents and some phone calls to them over speaker phone. They shave your head, give you uniforms and make you march in lock-step unison. Speaking out of turn, looking at a member of the opposite sex, or not ?working the program? is grounds for physical punishment. For unruly ?students? they have a small room known as ?The Hobbit?. They place students in the room for weeks at a time, only let out once a day to use the bathroom. Then for anyone still not following the rules correctly they have Tranquility Bay, located in Jamaica. Here you are not legally an adult until you are 21 so therefore cannot leave until then.
I?m doing everything I can to help in any way possible. I?ve contacted the Child Abuse Hotlines, the news, and the court system. I?ve started the Free Alex campaign in order to take donations to get him out and start a petition to get the school shut down. You can contact me through [email protected] if you have any questions on how you can help.
We?re trying to educate his parents and everyone around about this abuse in hopes of reaching an agreement to get him out! Please help us out in that process!!!
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 16, 2005, 09:22:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 09:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:22:00, SurpassingTheFlow wrote:Hey MORON did you not read that he has been moved? He is being treated by qualified doctors not abusers!!
"You stupid cunt. Yes, insults are appropriate. The sad part is that you will never want to believe that your kid at SCL is better off with other less horrifying forms or treatment. Please, you and your husband kill yourselves to get him released into somebody else's custody.
"
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hey MORON did you not read that he has been moved? He is being treated by qualified doctors not abusers!!"
Let's hope for Alex's sake he HAS been removed from SCL. That would be the best thing for him. I absolutely agree. But if this is true, then I would assume there should be no problem in telling us what facility he is being treated at so everyone can rest easy and know he is safe. There are alot of people that are VERY concerned. With that information, then, we can all stop this ridiculous charade and know that, in the end, he will come out of it as a better person.
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 09:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:48:00, Anonymous wrote:I think thats the familys business. He is no longer there thats all anyone needs to know.
"Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
Hey MORON did you not read that he has been moved? He is being treated by qualified doctors not abusers!!"
Let's hope for Alex's sake he HAS been removed from SCL. That would be the best thing for him. I absolutely agree. But if this is true, then I would assume there should be no problem in telling us what facility he is being treated at so everyone can rest easy and know he is safe. There are alot of people that are VERY concerned. With that information, then, we can all stop this ridiculous charade and know that, in the end, he will come out of it as a better person."
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 10:01:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 19:01:00, Anonymous wrote:Assume what you like.
"Then, if you can not honestly tell anyone where Alex is then we will assume he is still at SCL. What stops anyone on here from not believing vague statements such as that. It's coming from the people who up until about 4 posts ago said that this was the best place for him to get him away from that girl and that he wasn't suicidal at all according to his letters. Let's hope, for his sake, this is not ANOTHER LIE."
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 10:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:22:00, SurpassingTheFlow wrote:
"Please, you and your husband kill yourselves to get him released into somebody else's custody.
"
Hehehehe... thats some funny shit man, well played. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 11:43:00 PM
You really need help! You are horrible people!!
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 11:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 20:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Please, you and your husband kill yourselves to get him released into somebody else's custody.
You really need help! You are horrible people!!"
Maybe his parents should send him away to an abusive cult called WWASP... oh wait. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2005, 11:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:22:00, SurpassingTheFlow wrote:
"You stupid cunt. Yes, insults are appropriate. The sad part is that you will never want to believe that your kid at SCL is better off with other less horrifying forms or treatment. Please, you and your husband kill yourselves to get him released into somebody else's custody.
"
Why dont you go thumbfuck yourself? Way to tell someone to kill themselves. Thats real sweet, do you feel real big now? Fucken loser. Damn are you a fucken moron. Do you have rocks for brains? When you shake your head does it rattle? Get a life.
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 12:10:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 18:22:00, SurpassingTheFlow wrote:
"You stupid cunt. Yes, insults are appropriate. The sad part is that you will never want to believe that your kid at SCL is better off with other less horrifying forms or treatment. Please, you and your husband kill yourselves to get him released into somebody else's custody.
"
:wave:
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 01:24:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 09:39:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 10:33:00 AM
I am so sorry for all you are going thru, first the hurt with your son, then the hurt from others around you. At least it sounds like your family is supportive from the post from Alex's aunt. It is impossible for others that haven't lived thru what you and other parents are living thru to know the depths of the pain a rebellious child can cause. These wounds won't heal quickly for you, your husband or your other children. And, just to forwarn you, just when you think you are healing, either someone Alex knows, who thinks they are being helplful and doing what is in his best interests, or Alex himself, will pick the scab off that wound and you will be injured again. Love your son, but don't neglect the rest of your family. Your husband and other kids need you. At times you will feel as if they are doing fine and you are the only one still hurting, but even young children hide their pain in order to try and protect their mom. Draw support only from those you can trust. There are those like this girlfriend's mom that think they know best and will try to befriend you only to yank the rug out from under you later. Time will eventually win out. Either your son will allow himself to get help and will come around to be a part of the family, or he will prove himself to be as self destructive as you know he is. Make yourself a safe haven at home. Pull your family together in prayer and don't forget to pray for those that are persecuting you. I know you love your son and are doing what you believe is best for him. I hope he will one day realize this as well. But, if he doesn't, that is okay too. You know and your other children know the depths of the love it took to seek help. It would have been a lot easier to just cut him loose. At some point, you will have to do that anyway. You have six months. Find a support group that you can call at anytime to remind you of who you really are and why you are doing what you are doing. You will need this when the people on this board and others like them throw insults and slander at you. Good luck. You and your family are in my prayers.
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 12:11:00 PM
Trust, dont trust the Program.....Or those who say to trust them...
Trust God.
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 01:40:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 01:45:00 PM
Quote
"You stupid cunt. Yes, insults are appropriate. The sad part is that you will never want to believe that your kid at SCL is better off with other less horrifying forms or treatment. Please, you and your husband kill yourselves to get him released into somebody else's custody.
I dont know if 'cunt' is appropriate. That might be giving these program parents and trolls too much credit. More accurately, they belong in the category of queef. Or perhaps, a queef and simultaneous fart. Program parents are a part of society refered to a 'sadists'. They don't want another type of treatment, it wouldn't work with their mindset. They thrive on torture and mindfucking.
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 02:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-17 07:33:00, Anonymous wrote:Thank you for this post.
"To Alex's mom,
I am so sorry for all you are going thru, first the hurt with your son, then the hurt from others around you. At least it sounds like your family is supportive from the post from Alex's aunt. It is impossible for others that haven't lived thru what you and other parents are living thru to know the depths of the pain a rebellious child can cause. These wounds won't heal quickly for you, your husband or your other children. And, just to forwarn you, just when you think you are healing, either someone Alex knows, who thinks they are being helplful and doing what is in his best interests, or Alex himself, will pick the scab off that wound and you will be injured again. Love your son, but don't neglect the rest of your family. Your husband and other kids need you. At times you will feel as if they are doing fine and you are the only one still hurting, but even young children hide their pain in order to try and protect their mom. Draw support only from those you can trust. There are those like this girlfriend's mom that think they know best and will try to befriend you only to yank the rug out from under you later. Time will eventually win out. Either your son will allow himself to get help and will come around to be a part of the family, or he will prove himself to be as self destructive as you know he is. Make yourself a safe haven at home. Pull your family together in prayer and don't forget to pray for those that are persecuting you. I know you love your son and are doing what you believe is best for him. I hope he will one day realize this as well. But, if he doesn't, that is okay too. You know and your other children know the depths of the love it took to seek help. It would have been a lot easier to just cut him loose. At some point, you will have to do that anyway. You have six months. Find a support group that you can call at anytime to remind you of who you really are and why you are doing what you are doing. You will need this when the people on this board and others like them throw insults and slander at you. Good luck. You and your family are in my prayers. "
Alexs Moms Friend :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 02:59:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 03:05:00 PM
or your kid might end up like this pour soul... and many like him
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#155815 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13048&forum=44&start=0#155815)
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 03:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 11:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
I have heard his letters he is doing good and is not suicidal.
Alex's Aunt :wave:
"
I'm cofused????
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 03:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-16 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is Alex's mother and this is the first and only time I will write in this forum. All of this bickering between the girlfriends mother and my family members needs to stop. It is not productive. Thank you for all the concern, especially regarding my son and his suicidal tendancies. I have moved my son to a mental facility because that is where people go who are suicidal. <
Confusing - is he or is he NOT suicidal?????
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 03:08:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 03:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-17 11:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"thanks for posting that annoying graphic that makes noise , prgraom troll. it shows us, you have nothing to say or do worthwhile ( we already knew that) you come here only to disrupt. :wstupid: "
I think that person needs to go smoke some MORE weed!
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 03:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 05:02:00 PM
Kids say alot of things to try and fit in with other kids. You really only know what a troubled teen supposely said to you. I went to SCL it wasn't the best time of my life, but I came out a better person. To Alex's family sounds like he is a good kid that lost his way and that you all grew apart. Maybe there is a place close to you that he could stay at. where you and your husband only could visit and have family meetings with him. Maybe you could find the bond you once had. His girlfriend and mom sound like a pain in the ass I am sure things would have been easier if they would have stayed away. In 6 months you are going to have to let him go and find his own way. It maybe best if you rebond with him first. The best of luck to you. You will be in my prayers.
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
``~~``When_You_Scream``~~``
??????????? :???:
Post by: Anonymous on December 18, 2005, 10:43:00 AM
FYI If you son is at SCL they are not prepared to deal with suicidal kids.
Research (October 2004) the girl who was suicidal/depressed student and hung herself to death while under the care of "qualified" SCL staff.
Beware Beware Beware
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2005, 03:38:00 PM
BEWARE the pretty lies and false promises of SCL and WWASPS. It's all just a money-making scheme! They aren't in it for Alex, theyr'e in it for all those monthly payments you're giving them out of you bank.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:43:00 PM
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#156564 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13071&forum=44&start=0#156564)
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:44:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wonder why know body is typing. Did someone cross a line with calling someone a cunt and hoping they killed themselves? didn't mommy approve of this? or was it mommy who said it? It amazes me that this girl got no punishment at all even though she was in the car. she hasn't been grounded or anything. good luck with raising her kids when she can't because drugs have taken over her life."
Not going to waste my time arguing with ignorant people. There are many people who post on this site - what makes you think it was THAT GIRL OR HER MOMMY making those comments. Assume what you must.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
" It amazes me that this girl got no punishment at all even though she was in the car. she hasn't been grounded or anything. good luck with raising her kids when she can't because drugs have taken over her life."
How do you know so much about this GIRL and her punishment? You know nothing.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wonder why know body is typing. Did someone cross a line with calling someone a cunt and hoping they killed themselves? didn't mommy approve of this? or was it mommy who said it? It amazes me that this girl got no punishment at all even though she was in the car. she hasn't been grounded or anything. good luck with raising her kids when she can't because drugs have taken over her life."
Not going to waste my time arguing with ignorant people. There are many people who post on this site - what makes you think it was THAT GIRL OR HER MOMMY making those comments. Assume what you must."
Why should anyone believe you people when you can't even own up to what you do or say. Why don't you just get out of these peoples lives and move on.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Alex's mom and family - read this topic:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#156564 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13071&forum=44&start=0#156564)"
How dose this topic help?
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
" It amazes me that this girl got no punishment at all even though she was in the car. she hasn't been grounded or anything. good luck with raising her kids when she can't because drugs have taken over her life."
How do you know so much about this GIRL and her punishment? You know nothing."
I have seen her out from the day this all started. I don't know the family but I go to school with this girl.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 02:59:00 PM
Quote
QuoteOn 2005-12-20 11:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
How do you know so much about this GIRL and her punishment? You know nothing."
I have seen her out from the day this all started. I don't know the family but I go to school with this girl. "
Oh,then you must know everything!
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 03:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Alex's mom and family - read this topic:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#156564 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13071&forum=44&start=0#156564)"
How dose this topic help? "
Looks to me there is another kid with a loving family trying to help. Wonder if they had to deal with another sico family like you. You think you are helping but you are making things worse.
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2005, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
You think you are helping but you are making things worse.
Now that is some serious projecting if I've heard it. Spin all you want programmie, the truth is out there for all to know. If abusing kids for money is something you approve of, by all means. It bothers me though, and many others.
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 20, 2005, 07:52:00 PM
Post by: AtomicAnt on December 20, 2005, 10:33:00 PM
I have a cautionary tale. If you are trying to keep Alex away from his girlfriend you may be setting up a disaster. Trying to keep two teenagers apart when they think they are in love only fuels a Romeo and Juliet attitude.
My father tried this with my sister. He tried everything. He walked her to school and he walked her home. She was not allowed to leave the house. He involved the school teachers and staff to keep the boy away (he had quit school, already). He did worse that I won't go into.
The day my Dad finally kicked my sister out of our house, she was 15. She was pregnant. She ended up marrying the boy.
I recently asked my sister about all the closed door talks she had with our Dad after our parents found out she was pregnant. She said basically he gave her the choice of a. give the baby up for adoption or b. leave. She left. She told me, "Walking down that sidewalk, alone, with nowhere to go and only a suitcase full of stuff, was the happiest moment of my life."
My parents lost their daughter.
Are you setting up Alex for the same? Will your tyrannical approach work, or will Alex some day just leave and count it as the happiest day of his life?
Post by: SurpassingTheFlow on December 21, 2005, 04:59:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 21, 2005, 04:45:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2005, 02:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-15 17:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
And don't think it's just me. There are hundreds of us in a myspace.com group alone. Think how many are out there who haven't signed on to that one particular website.
Hey, I don't think I have that one listed at Anonanon, do I? Li'll help, please?
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2005, 02:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-17 07:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To Alex's mom,
I am so sorry for all you are going thru, first the hurt with your son, then the hurt from others around you.
Oh shut the fuck up, Craig!
Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2005, 02:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wonder why know body is typing. Did someone cross a line with calling someone a cunt and hoping they killed themselves? didn't mommy approve of this? or was it mommy who said it? It amazes me that this girl got no punishment at all even though she was in the car. she hasn't been grounded or anything. good luck with raising her kids when she can't because drugs have taken over her life."
Hmm, well maybe her PARENTS decided that she didn't need to be punished. What ever happened to butting out of other people's family business, hmmm????
"Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."--Friedrich Nietzsche
say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2005, 03:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-21 13:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"yeah the THREAD is DEAD ::cheers::To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
-- Richard Henry Lee, 1787
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2005, 04:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-04 15:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, he is being charged with a felony - but he was driving a car with four other kids and they found drugs in the car. It was not just his fault - all four kids are to blame. He was just driving the car. Sometimes kids do make big mistakes. He still does not deserve to be treated this way. That is my opinion.
"
In other words, there are no victims to consider except Alex.
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
Post by: Antigen on December 30, 2005, 04:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-05 06:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Your daughter was in the car with the kids? Aren't you concerned about the company your daughter keeps? I hope you will keep a closer eye on her and she doesn't end up in the same situation!"
Why don't you mind your own business and stay out of other peoples private family affairs?
Sorry, ya'll. This one's just under my skin in a bad way.
Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2005, 01:40:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2005, 02:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-30 11:04:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-15 17:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
And don't think it's just me. There are hundreds of us in a myspace.com group alone. Think how many are out there who haven't signed on to that one particular website.
Hey, I don't think I have that one listed at http://groups.myspace.com/EndInstitutio ... ChildAbuse (http://groups.myspace.com/EndInstitutionalizedChildAbuse)
http://groups.myspace.com/WWASP (http://groups.myspace.com/WWASP)
http://groups.myspace.com/antiwwasp (http://groups.myspace.com/antiwwasp)
http://groups.myspace.com/WWASPprograms (http://groups.myspace.com/WWASPprograms)
Sure there's groups for other specific programs, but I only bookmarked the WWASP ones. :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2005, 12:32:00 PM
Escape in Sanders County
by John S. Adams
Photo by Chad Harder
Graffiti scrawled on the wall of Spring Creek?s ?intervention? room by a student last June. Students who act out can be sent to Tranquility Bay, an associated facility in Jamaica.
No news is bad news for Spring Creek?s ?runners?
On the evening of Friday, Sept. 9, a 16-year-old boy was found approximately 30 feet below the lip of a cliff above the Clark Fork River west of Thompson Falls. The boy was a student at Spring Creek Lodge Academy, a specialty boarding school in Sanders County and member of the World Wide Association of Specialty Schools and Programs (WWASPS). Two sources close to Spring Creek told the Independent that Adrian Sanders was being transported from Spring Creek to an associated facility in Jamaica when he escaped his teen transport service, Second Chance Transport of Thompson Falls. He was later found by search and rescue personnel below the cliffs behind the Rimrock Lodge motel, one mile west of Thompson Falls on State Hwy 200. He was transported to Clark Fork Valley Hospital in Plains.
Details of the incident and the extent of the boy?s injuries have been hard to come by.
Queries directed to traditional sources of information including the local sheriff?s department, ambulance service and hospital, have turned up little or no information. It is still unknown if an investigation into the boy?s attempted escape and subsequent fall and injury was ever conducted.
The level of secrecy surrounding even minor details related to the incident is startling. Officials at the Clark Fork Valley Hospital refuse to confirm whether the boy was ever a patient. A Thompson Falls Volunteer Ambulance official refuses to comment on whether or not the ambulance company even responded to the incident. The local sheriff says there was no investigation into or documentation of the incident other than an EMS/Fire initial dispatch report, which includes 18 lines of frustratingly vague narrative of the response to the incident. The private company responsible for transporting Adrian Sanders refused to comment other than to say that their charge suffered a ?minor concussion? and that everything ?turned out fine.? Neither Spring Creek Lodge?s director nor the school?s principal returned phone calls regarding the incident. A spokeswoman for Spring Creek said the school is ?not authorized to give information on the student.? Information on where Adrian Sanders is from, why he was being transported, how he escaped, the extent of his injuries and the nature of the rescue have all been withheld from the Independent or were never documented.
The day before Adrian Sanders? fall, Spring Creek?s principal, Michele ?Mickey? Manning, took her seat on the new governor-appointed Private Alternative Adolescent Residential or Outdoor Programs board. One of the legislatively mandated board?s missions is to ?examine the benefit of licensing alternative residential or outdoor programs as a public service to monitor and maintain a high standard of care and to ensure the safety and well-being of adolescents and parents using the programs.?
According to language in House Bill 628, the law creating the new board, ?necessary licensure processes and safety standards for programs are best developed and monitored by the professionals that are actively engaged in providing private alternative adolescent care.?
Manning could not be reached for comment on the Adrian Sanders incident, so it is unclear if incidents like that of Sept. 9 will be reported to the board for consideration in the development of ?safety standards? for the therapeutic boarding school industry in Montana.
In trying to find out what happened on Sept. 9, we called the Clark Fork Valley Hospital (CFVH) to obtain a condition report on Adrian Sanders. It is common journalistic practice for reporters to contact hospitals for basic information about victims of accidents to which law enforcement, fire or search and rescue personnel respond. When the Independent contacted CFVH, we were denied any information on Sanders, including whether he had been admitted or recorded in the hospital?s patient directory. We were told that due to the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act of 1996, or HIPAA, the hospital could not legally provide any information, including whether Sanders was even transported to CFVH.
In fact, according to the American Hospital Association?s ?Guidelines for Releasing Information on the Condition of Patients,? hospitals may release the patient?s ?one-word? condition and location in the healthcare facility to individuals who inquire about the patient by name, including members of the media. One-word condition terms include ?good,? ?fair,? ?serious,? or ?critical.? That is the policy followed by the area?s two largest hospitals, St. Patrick Hospital and Community Medical Center in Missoula. Such condition information is commonly reported in the press.
After being repeatedly denied condition information by multiple CFVH sources, the Independent contacted CFVH?s chief executive officer, Margo Harrison. Harrison refused to disclose the hospital?s policy on releasing patient condition reports to the press, again citing HIPAA. When we argued that HIPPA does not preclude her from giving basic patient condition information, Harrison had this to say: ?Well I?m an attorney, so if you want to argue federal law, let?s go.?
Before we were able to present our case, Harrison hung up on us.
Tom Eggensperger, president of the Thompson Falls Volunteer Ambulance (and editor and publisher of the local newspaper, the Sanders County Ledger) also refused to provide any information on the call. Eggensperger additionally refused to confirm that the ambulance service responded to a call at the Rimrock Lodge.
?You can thank your buddy Bill Clinton,? Eggensperger told us, by way of explaining his secrecy.
When asked what he meant by ?your buddy Bill Clinton,? Eggensperger had this to say: ?I?ve read your Independent. It?s about as left-wing as it gets. I?m telling you because of your buddy Bill Clinton we can?t give out that information.?
When pressed, Eggensperger said the Sanders county attorney had instructed him to not give out any information. Then he hung up.
?I don?t remember a conversation of that nature with Tom,? said Bob Zimmerman, county attorney, when told of Eggensperger?s comments. ?I do routinely meet with incoming attendants and go through the fact that they are not allowed to say anything about the medical condition of anything they respond to.?
Zimmerman did not say Eggensperger was prohibited from confirming the EMS response that night.
After several attempts to get information from the Sanders County Sheriff?s Office, in which we were initially told that no sheriff?s deputies had responded to the scene, Sheriff Gene Arnold faxed a copy of the EMS/Fire Initial Report. According to the report, Patty Witt, owner of Second Chance Transport (and ?family rep supervisor? at Spring Creek Lodge) showed up at the sheriff?s office at 9:49 p.m. to report a missing male juvenile ?runner? from Second Chance Transport. She stated that Second Chance had been looking for the ?runner? for one hour. While dispatch was taking Witt?s report, a search and rescue official radioed in to the sheriff?s office to report a ?male over cliff.? But according to Arnold, no detailed investigation of the incident was ever undertaken and no missing persons complaint was ever completed. The incident was treated as an accident, and a deputy who responded to the scene never interviewed the injured party, Adrian Sanders.
According to the report, the ?juv? (Sanders) fell 25-30 feet off a cliff and was conscious but not responsive. St. Patrick Hospital?s Life Flight helicopter was dispatched to transport the youth from CFVH to St. Patrick; however, the helicopter was turned back due to snowy conditions. No other information regarding the extent of Sanders? injury, condition or current whereabouts has been released.
?If we thought there was a crime, or if a crime was reported, we would investigate it,? said Sheriff Arnold. ?We were told he took off, which happens quite a bit.?
Arnold said he didn?t know the name of the boy who fell off the cliff, but added that he was told the boy was placed in another school the following day.
?You?re asking all these questions?maybe I do need an investigation. First I?d have to talk to the county attorney to make sure I?m not stepping on any toes.?
The sheriff said he?d let us know what he finds out.
In other words, there appears to be no official record of how or why Adrian Sanders, while in the care of a Spring Creek Lodge employee moonlighting at her transport company, and en route from one WWASPS facility to another, escaped, or how he wound up dazed and confused on the rocks above the Clark Fork River.
According to a source close to Spring Creek, students are transported to Tranquility Bay (a WWASPS facility near St. Elizabeth, Jamaica) for violating the school?s zero tolerance policy. According to Spring Creek?s parent manual, such violation may include ?acts of violence? or ?dangerous, severely disruptive or extremely defiant behavior.? If a teen exhibits such behavior, that student can be expelled and the parents are given the option of enrolling their teen in Tranquility Bay, shipping them there in the care of a teen transport service like Second Chance. If the teen arrived in Jamaica, he or she would have no way to file a complaint with local authorities in Montana. Once placed in a WWASPS program such as Spring Creek or Tranquility Bay, teens are not allowed unsupervised contact with the outside world. Likewise, local authorities have no jurisdiction once the teen is transported across state lines or U.S. borders.
In the case of Adrian Sanders, neither he nor his parents have filed a complaint with the Sanders County Sheriff?s Office. Due to the secrecy and stonewalling by those charged with Sanders? care, we may never know the details of what happened to him that night.
It?s worth noting that in its initial reporting, the Independent never used the names ?Adrian Sanders,? ?Spring Creek,? or ?Second Chance Transport.? However, the paper later learned from a source familiar with the incident that school officials became aware of the paper?s inquiries less than 24 hours after initial calls to the local hospital, EMS service and law enforcement officials. Clearly, Sanders County officials are capable of sharing information when it serves the cause of secrecy.
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2005, 02:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-30 11:46:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-17 07:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To Alex's mom,
I am so sorry for all you are going thru, first the hurt with your son, then the hurt from others around you.
Oh shut the fuck up, Craig
Are we talking about the same Craig that posts as Word of Wisdom? http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/se ... mit=Search (http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/search.php?term=&addterms=any&forum=all&search_username=Word%20of%20Wisdom&sortby=p.post_time&searchboth=both&submit=Search)
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2005, 02:25:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 02, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-30 11:55:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2005-12-20 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Wonder why know body is typing. Did someone cross a line with calling someone a cunt and hoping they killed themselves? didn't mommy approve of this? or was it mommy who said it? It amazes me that this girl got no punishment at all even though she was in the car. she hasn't been grounded or anything. good luck with raising her kids when she can't because drugs have taken over her life."
Hmm, well maybe her PARENTS decided that she didn't need to be punished. What ever happened to butting out of other people's family business, hmmm????
"Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful."--Friedrich Nietzschesay what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile.
--Kurt Vonnegut, American author
"
well they are butting into this boys family business. have you not read all this. duh
maybe they should listen to you as well.
Post by: Anonymous on January 02, 2006, 10:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-02 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
well they are butting into this boys family business. have you not read all this. duh
maybe they should listen to you as well."
Seems that the boy is asking for some help since he's getting none from his parents.
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 02, 2006, 11:55:00 AM
Of course, someone will say they were invited, but not by Alex. He did not ask or want them to butt into his life. So maybe they should mind their own business, let him go, and just go home.
Post by: Anonymous on January 02, 2006, 06:56:00 PM
Glad to see the support for the girlfriend and her mom!
Post by: Anonymous on January 02, 2006, 08:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-02 15:56:00, Anonymous wrote:The girl is a certified loon!!!
"http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=42043791&blogID=72700041&MyToken=6754f782-f7b5-4e54-9587-b8533f8d8737
Glad to see the support for the girlfriend and her mom!"
Post by: Anonymous on January 02, 2006, 08:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-02 17:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
The girl is a certified loon!!!"
Why, because she doesn't live her life according to how YOU think she should?
Post by: Anonymous on January 02, 2006, 09:12:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 06:53:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 08:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 03:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some might consider looniness worshiping the devil. Or having your class picture taken at a cemetery. or the Goth clothes, only a crazy person would think they look good with that fat belly hanging out. "
These examples are people making CHOICES FOR THEMSLEVES. Can you REALLY not see the difference?
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 08:53:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 10:25:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 03:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some might consider looniness worshiping the devil. Or having your class picture taken at a cemetery. or the Goth clothes, only a crazy person would think they look good with that fat belly hanging out. "
Someone who continuously bashes people for how they look, afraid of people because they don't look like you? Do you stereotype everyone who doesn't look/live they way you do? It is amazing how just by the way someone looks/dresses, they are devil worshipers! Who's the certified loon???
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 12:01:00 PM
:nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 12:12:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 12:28:00 PM
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... D=42043791 (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=42043791)
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 12:31:00 PM
Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: ag-'näs-tik, &g-
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnOstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnOstos known, from gignOskein to know -- more at KNOW
: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
She's saying she doesn't know, that's vastly different than worshipping the devil. How could she worship something she's not even sure exists?
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 02:07:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 02:16:00 PM
POINTLESS!
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 03, 2006, 02:35:00 PM
I've been called worse.
Anyway, I have read through all this madness, and it's my personal opinion that this girlfriend of Alex's is extremely intelligent. Sometimes, being so bright gets you into trouble. It sometimes makes people think you're downright nuts. So, she's a little on the goofy side?!! Some of us go through phases that other people do not. So, in my teenage years, I sat around with my friends playing an Ouija Board, and drawing upside down crosses. Am I a devil worshipper? NO! It was a P-H-A-S-E. I am really hoping that things turn out better for Alex, I am very worried.
From my personal experience, when you cross them at WWASPS they will make sure you pay for it one way or another. Had there been a torture chamber where R.L. could've sent me back in 1990 after my personal issues with him, and the program at C.C.M. he would've sent me there in a heartbeat. He was already making plans for me to go to a wilderness camp when I jumped out of the upper floor window and took off into the cold night. I thought that 15 years would've past, and they would've gotten their act together. That is not the case apparently, and it deeply saddens me to read such horror stories.
I'm not big into praying........but I will say a prayer for Alex.
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 02:38:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 02:46:00 PM
From what I've read on her myspace site (and yes, you can gather some info from there, not the whole picture but a overall of what kind of a person she is) she sounds like a bright, warm and caring kid. If you have a problem with what she and the mom have done as far as reporting his kidnapping to the police and such, fine. But what right do you have to judge her as a parents simply because her kid is considered goth?
Post by: The Liger on January 03, 2006, 04:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I hope for Alex's sack she is with someone else when he gets out."
Don't you think that would be bad for his sack?
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 06:09:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 03, 2006, 07:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Did you see the Vampirefreaks.com web site When_You_Scream the pictures of the wise men one has his head cut off they all have blood dripping down them. Sorry I find that WRONG. I am aloud my opinion just they same as you and her.
Yeah, I saw the site and looked at some of the artwork. I also wandered around and read some of the blog entries. These kids biggest concern right now seems to revolve around final exams, school functions and shocking, provocative art. I was really looking hard for those cemetary pictures someone mentioned. Would love to see them. I've seen some stunningly good cemetary art before. Is this some of the good stuff? Maybe.
So, does that give anybody the right to have me locked away for my own good? Because I disagree with you about the quality and value of somebody's artwork? Is that what you find so strange about her parents? You just can't fathom how they could not be in a blind panic over this?
Yeah, you have your right to your opinion about art and friends and style and lifestyle. So does Alex.
The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 07:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 16:12:00, Antigen wrote:Final exams? Most of the school year was missed because of skipping and spending time that should have been class time smoking pot. Grades were all F's. School functions? They were not even interested. Not much chance of graduating either. Sneaking out of the house often when everyone was asleep to drive around and do ecstacy and coke at 3 in the morning. Going to strange clubs that promote drugs and other worse things to mess with an already confused mind. I go to school with these guys and it was more than the artwork and tatooes that must have scared these parents into action.
"Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Did you see the Vampirefreaks.com web site When_You_Scream the pictures of the wise men one has his head cut off they all have blood dripping down them. Sorry I find that WRONG. I am aloud my opinion just they same as you and her.
Yeah, I saw the site and looked at some of the artwork. I also wandered around and read some of the blog entries. These kids biggest concern right now seems to revolve around final exams, school functions and shocking, provocative art. I was really looking hard for those cemetary pictures someone mentioned. Would love to see them. I've seen some stunningly good cemetary art before. Is this some of the good stuff? Maybe.
So, does that give anybody the right to have me locked away for my own good? Because I disagree with you about the quality and value of somebody's artwork? Is that what you find so strange about her parents? You just can't fathom how they could not be in a blind panic over this?
Yeah, you have your right to your opinion about art and friends and style and lifestyle. So does Alex.The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 07:52:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 07:52:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 08:05:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 03, 2006, 10:43:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 03, 2006, 10:54:00 PM
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... custom.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/769bw8x10custom.htm)
Yup, just as I suspected. Great art photo. The guy does good work overall and this is no exception.
The spirit of this country is totally adverse to a large military force.
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Antigen on January 03, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... lywild.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/7615x7bwreallywild.htm)
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... icbabe.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/761gothicbabe.htm)
These are really good.
I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
Post by: Antigen on January 03, 2006, 11:04:00 PM
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... 8X10bw.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/4158X10bw.htm)
Or how about good, clean, wholesome Britney?
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... pia5x7.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/9071sepia5x7.htm)
I'd be very careful tossing around highschool rumors. They're very often unfounded, ya know. Just mean spirited lies meant to stir up trouble and excitement.
Watch less Oprah, Jerry and soap operas.
for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:13:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:37:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 16:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not saying it was right to send Alex away to this place, but pretty much everyone at school understands why his parents did it. "
You should have more kids from school put a message on this site. It would be interesting to
hear from the kids who have seen how they act at school. I don't think I would send my kids to this place. But I do believe the parents harts were in the right place. Must have been a tough decision! I pray I never have to make it. Why do the kids understand why his parents did it? Is this group of kids out of control in school?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:17:00 AM
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... 8128x1.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/8128x1.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 10:22:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 10:39:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 10:43:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 11:32:00 AM
Nicely done maybe but Not something I would hang on my wall or pay for my daughter to have done.
:silly:
Post by: Troll Control on January 04, 2006, 11:46:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 20:04:00, Antigen wrote:
"Would you prefer it if Ashley were to have her (her) Sr. photos more traditional and clean cut like this gal Aubrey?
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... 8X10bw.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/4158X10bw.htm)
Or how about good, clean, wholesome Britney?
http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/Senio ... pia5x7.htm (http://www.johnshoemakerphoto.com/SeniorGallery07-24-05/pages/9071sepia5x7.htm)
I'd be very careful tossing around highschool rumors. They're very often unfounded, ya know. Just mean spirited lies meant to stir up trouble and excitement.
Watch less Oprah, Jerry and soap operas.for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
"
I'd like to have a threesome with Aubrey and Britney. They're hot. Can you hook me up, sis?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 12:02:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 12:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Goth doesn't bother me. she dose need to cover herself up a little she doesn't have the body for it. When she was at a friends house she turned a picture of Jesus upside down and put a knife on it. She is strange hopefully she will grow out of it. I feel her parents should try to guide her more. But they are a little strange also. I do know this girl. We go to the same school. I hope for Alex's sack she is with someone else when he gets out. Did you see the Vampirefreaks.com web site When_You_Scream the pictures of the wise men one has his head cut off they all have blood dripping down them. Sorry I find that WRONG. I am aloud my opinion just they same as you and her."
Have you been to SCL or any of the other facilities?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 01:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:17:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What do you people not get? Its not the look, thats just individuality, its all the trouble and bad ideas that seem to follow this girl wherever she goes!!"
I have not heard of all this trouble and bad ideas that is following her, lets hear them, please!
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know her and if I had kids I wouldnt want them anywhere near her."
Again, lets hear about the trouble and bad ideas.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I know her and if I had kids I wouldnt want them anywhere near her."
have you been to SCL or any treatment facility/boarding school/RTC/TBS etc.?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website). Sneaking out in the middle of the night and doing ecstasy and coke. Many times. Clubbing at some really strange places. Instead of having her boyfriend try and come to an agreement with his parents, she did everything she could to make the situation to what she wanted not what was best for him and what his parents wanted. I think they sent him away because they wanted him away from her. Sure people talk at school but we know what we see and hear to."
Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Goth doesn't bother me. she dose need to cover herself up a little she doesn't have the body for it. When she was at a friends house she turned a picture of Jesus upside down and put a knife on it. She is strange hopefully she will grow out of it. I feel her parents should try to guide her more. But they are a little strange also. I do know this girl. We go to the same school. I hope for Alex's sack she is with someone else when he gets out. Did you see the Vampirefreaks.com web site When_You_Scream the pictures of the wise men one has his head cut off they all have blood dripping down them. Sorry I find that WRONG. I am aloud my opinion just they same as you and her."
Have you been to SCL or any of the other facilities?"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:39:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:41:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:42:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website). Sneaking out in the middle of the night and doing ecstasy and coke. Many times. Clubbing at some really strange places. Instead of having her boyfriend try and come to an agreement with his parents, she did everything she could to make the situation to what she wanted not what was best for him and what his parents wanted. I think they sent him away because they wanted him away from her. Sure people talk at school but we know what we see and hear to."
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:43:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website). Sneaking out in the middle of the night and doing ecstasy and coke. Many times. Clubbing at some really strange places. Instead of having her boyfriend try and come to an agreement with his parents, she did everything she could to make the situation to what she wanted not what was best for him and what his parents wanted. I think they sent him away because they wanted him away from her. Sure people talk at school but we know what we see and hear to."
What website is this? Do you know these "drug dealers" personally, or are you just assuming. From what I know, her boyfriend was sneaking out of his house. What, were you at the clubs with them - where do you get your information. Don't you have to be 18 to get into clubs? From what I understand, he had been getting into a lot of trouble for years and years, he didn't need any help in that department.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:Thats pretty scary. I hear those schools are awful. This girl must be pretty bad for the parents to have to resort to that.
"im sure those places are horrible. im glad im not there. maybe this girl is worse."
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:48:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:43:00, Anonymous wrote:vampirefreaks.com, first picture, middle guy, DRUG DEALER. He sells to many people I know. I go to school with these people. You can get in most places even if your not 18.
"Quote"
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website). Sneaking out in the middle of the night and doing ecstasy and coke. Many times. Clubbing at some really strange places. Instead of having her boyfriend try and come to an agreement with his parents, she did everything she could to make the situation to what she wanted not what was best for him and what his parents wanted. I think they sent him away because they wanted him away from her. Sure people talk at school but we know what we see and hear to."
What website is this? Do you know these "drug dealers" personally, or are you just assuming. From what I know, her boyfriend was sneaking out of his house. What, were you at the clubs with them - where do you get your information. Don't you have to be 18 to get into clubs? From what I understand, he had been getting into a lot of trouble for years and years, he didn't need any help in that department.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteThats pretty scary. I hear those schools are awful. This girl must be pretty bad for the parents to have to resort to that."
On 2006-01-04 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"im sure those places are horrible. im glad im not there. maybe this girl is worse."
The girl is not at SCL, her boyfriend is. No, she is not this horrible teenager that someone is trying to maker her out to be, neither is he, I know both of them. And as for her close friends being drug dealers, where is that information coming from?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:No. From what Ive read they sound pretty bad
"To the poster who says she goes to school with the girl: Have you ever been to SCL or one of the other facilities?"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:56:00 PM
Quote
vampirefreaks.com, first picture, middle guy, DRUG DEALER. He sells to many people I know. I go to school with these people. You can get in most places even if your not 18. "
Interesting, is this person still selling drugs?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 03:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quotevampirefreaks.com, first picture, middle guy, DRUG DEALER. He sells to many people I know. I go to school with these people. You can get in most places even if your not 18. "
On 2006-01-04 12:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote"
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website). Sneaking out in the middle of the night and doing ecstasy and coke. Many times. Clubbing at some really strange places. Instead of having her boyfriend try and come to an agreement with his parents, she did everything she could to make the situation to what she wanted not what was best for him and what his parents wanted. I think they sent him away because they wanted him away from her. Sure people talk at school but we know what we see and hear to."
What website is this? Do you know these "drug dealers" personally, or are you just assuming. From what I know, her boyfriend was sneaking out of his house. What, were you at the clubs with them - where do you get your information. Don't you have to be 18 to get into clubs? From what I understand, he had been getting into a lot of trouble for years and years, he didn't need any help in that department.
screwed up that last post, is this person still selling drugs? You still go to school with him?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:I havent seen him around lately. i dont buy drugs so im not sure whats up with him
"Quote
vampirefreaks.com, first picture, middle guy, DRUG DEALER. He sells to many people I know. I go to school with these people. You can get in most places even if your not 18. "
Interesting, is this person still selling drugs?"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:02:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:57:00, Anonymous wrote:he doesnt go to school hes too old
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quotevampirefreaks.com, first picture, middle guy, DRUG DEALER. He sells to many people I know. I go to school with these people. You can get in most places even if your not 18. "
On 2006-01-04 12:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote"
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website). Sneaking out in the middle of the night and doing ecstasy and coke. Many times. Clubbing at some really strange places. Instead of having her boyfriend try and come to an agreement with his parents, she did everything she could to make the situation to what she wanted not what was best for him and what his parents wanted. I think they sent him away because they wanted him away from her. Sure people talk at school but we know what we see and hear to."
What website is this? Do you know these "drug dealers" personally, or are you just assuming. From what I know, her boyfriend was sneaking out of his house. What, were you at the clubs with them - where do you get your information. Don't you have to be 18 to get into clubs? From what I understand, he had been getting into a lot of trouble for years and years, he didn't need any help in that department.
screwed up that last post, is this person still selling drugs? You still go to school with him?"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:07:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:12:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 07:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"looks like a tough bitch"
Not to me. To me, she looks like an aspiring model making an artistic photo. Also demonstrates some range and contrast from the softer, more wistful shots w/ the crypt in the background.
Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I thought Alex was moved? What happened with that?"
Don't know, for all we know they moved him to TB, but hopefully for his sake they didn't. I find it interesting that the person pointed out Alex as the "drug dealer", do you even know who you are talking about?
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
Her close friends are drug dealers. (see pictures on her website).
Ok, I saw the pics on the website and still remain unconvinced that these kids are drug kingpins. You mean they're drug dealers in the same way I become a bread distributor if I offer to pick up a loaf of bread for a neighbor while I'm at the store?
Please come clean and explain how you know these kids.
The hypothalamus is one of the most important parts of the brain, involved in many kinds of motivation, among other functions. The hypothalamus controls the "Four F's": 1. fighting; 2. fleeing; 3.feeding; and 4. mating.
-- Psychology professor in neuropsychology intro course
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"im sure those places are horrible. im glad im not there. maybe this girl is worse."
Darlin, let me explain something to you. If a kid or faculty member behaved in school the way these programs require all participants to treat each other, there would be assault and harassment charges followed by investigations and hearings and a whole lot of gusmus. The fact that this girl is not locked up in a mental ward or in jail is adequate proof that she is NOT as bad or worse than these programs.
Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:19:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:FIRST PICTURE, MIDDLE GUY!! I KNOW ALEX
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I thought Alex was moved? What happened with that?"
Don't know, for all we know they moved him to TB, but hopefully for his sake they didn't. I find it interesting that the person pointed out Alex as the "drug dealer", do you even know who you are talking about? "
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"this is the talk of the school"
Yea, just what I thought! You know NOTHING! You believe everything you hear, as long as it is bashing the people you don't know or understand.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:18:00, Antigen wrote:Sorry.
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"im sure those places are horrible. im glad im not there. maybe this girl is worse."
Darlin, let me explain something to you. If a kid or faculty member behaved in school the way these programs require all participants to treat each other, there would be assault and harassment charges followed by investigations and hearings and a whole lot of gusmus. The fact that this girl is not locked up in a mental ward or in jail is adequate proof that she is NOT as bad or worse than these programs.Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
FIRST PICTURE, MIDDLE GUY!! I KNOW ALEX"
LINK PLEASE!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:21:00, Anonymous wrote:I know the guy in the middle to. He does sell drugs. Alex is the first guy in the photo
"QuoteFIRST PICTURE, MIDDLE GUY!! I KNOW ALEX"
On 2006-01-04 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I thought Alex was moved? What happened with that?"
Don't know, for all we know they moved him to TB, but hopefully for his sake they didn't. I find it interesting that the person pointed out Alex as the "drug dealer", do you even know who you are talking about? "
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Interesting, is this person still selling drugs?"
I havent seen him around lately. i dont buy drugs so im not sure whats up with him"
Odds are strong that Alex' parents have probably tried to recruit the parents of every kid he knows. Do you know the kid's parents? Think they'd fall for it?
Doesn't matter if he's actually a drug dealer or not. All it takes is the parents belief that he is, backed by substantial sums of money. Ask anybody I went to school with and they'll tell you they know for a fact I was a heroin junkie. Fact is I've never seen the stuff. Doesn't matter, though. Mom got it into her head somehow, sent me off to rehab. Therefore, in most ppl's minds, it MUST have been true.
[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I thought Alex was moved? What happened with that?"
You tell me. I have a sneaking suspicion that you know a whole lot more about that than you're letting on. Did they ship him to Jamaica like they usually do when a kids' family or friends try to rescue them?
I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteFIRST PICTURE, MIDDLE GUY!! I KNOW ALEX"
On 2006-01-04 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I thought Alex was moved? What happened with that?"
Don't know, for all we know they moved him to TB, but hopefully for his sake they didn't. I find it interesting that the person pointed out Alex as the "drug dealer", do you even know who you are talking about? "
This is getting even funnier - you just pointed to Jimmy Urine, the lead singer of the band MSI (Mindless Self Indulgence) This photo was taken at a concert they went to at Clutch Cargos back in October. THey waited outside for hours to meet him and get this picture taken. This is funny. If you know him so well, introduce me, I would love to meet him personally, too!
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"this is the talk of the school"
And we all know that highschool gossip is 100% gospel truth, right kiddies?
As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:26:00, Antigen wrote:How sad!!
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Interesting, is this person still selling drugs?"
I havent seen him around lately. i dont buy drugs so im not sure whats up with him"
Odds are strong that Alex' parents have probably tried to recruit the parents of every kid he knows. Do you know the kid's parents? Think they'd fall for it?
Doesn't matter if he's actually a drug dealer or not. All it takes is the parents belief that he is, backed by substantial sums of money. Ask anybody I went to school with and they'll tell you they know for a fact I was a heroin junkie. Fact is I've never seen the stuff. Doesn't matter, though. Mom got it into her head somehow, sent me off to rehab. Therefore, in most ppl's minds, it MUST have been true.[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:29:00, Antigen wrote:How true
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"this is the talk of the school"
And we all know that highschool gossip is 100% gospel truth, right kiddies?As men's prayers are a disease of the will, so are their creeds a disease of the intellect.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson, American essayist, poet, philosopher
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:18:00, Antigen wrote:
Darlin, let me explain something to you. If a kid or faculty member behaved in school the way these programs require all participants to treat each other, there would be assault and harassment charges followed by investigations and hearings and a whole lot of gusmus. The fact that this girl is not locked up in a mental ward or in jail is adequate proof that she is NOT as bad or worse than these programs.
Hmmmm. Funny you should mention that. http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/04/caged ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/01/04/caged.children.ap/index.html)
A judge ruled December 22 during a custody hearing that making the children sleep in wooden cages without pillows or mattresses constituted abuse. The judge also decided to keep the children, ages 1 to 15, in foster care.
The Gravelles defended their initial decision to make some of the children sleep in the cages. They said the enclosures were necessary to keep the children from harming themselves or one another.
"We did it for their safety," Michael Gravelle said. "Those were the final products of everything we did."
It's always "for their own good/safety. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:39:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:43:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:43:00 PM
http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/ (http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/)
Who would believe that a democratic government would pursue for eight decades a failed policy that produced tens of millions of victims and trillions of dollars of illicit profits for drug dealers, cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars, increased crime and destroyed inner cities, fostered widespread corruption and violations of human rights - and all with no success in achieving the stated and unattainable objective of a drug free America?
--Milton Friedman, winner of 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize for economic science
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 04:45:00 PM
Anybody? Please, I want to see a pic of this big, bad, scary drug kingpin.
Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:45:00, Antigen wrote:From what i read hes a musician
"But where's that pic of Alex? 2nd pic in what page? Vampirefreaks doesn't have any and the studio's front page, well the only boy who might be refered to as in the middle looks to be about 4 years old.
Anybody? Please, I want to see a pic of this big, bad, scary drug kingpin.Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:45:00, Antigen wrote:Girls journal. 1st pic. blond kid with vampire tooth is alex
"But where's that pic of Alex? 2nd pic in what page? Vampirefreaks doesn't have any and the studio's front page, well the only boy who might be refered to as in the middle looks to be about 4 years old.
Anybody? Please, I want to see a pic of this big, bad, scary drug kingpin.Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 04:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:45:00, Antigen wrote:
"But where's that pic of Alex? 2nd pic in what page? Vampirefreaks doesn't have any and the studio's front page, well the only boy who might be refered to as in the middle looks to be about 4 years old.
Anybody? Please, I want to see a pic of this big, bad, scary drug kingpin.Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
This is the picture of Alex...
http://vampirefreaks.com/lists.php?user ... cream&n=10 (http://vampirefreaks.com/lists.php?user=When_You_Scream&n=10)
The middle guy woth the glasses on...
And here's the other person they were refering to as a drug dealer when they found out that the first was the very kid these posts are about...
http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?pi ... &d=1552379 (http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?pic_id=6523503&user=When_You_Scream&uid=189854&title=Awe%2C+why+you+so+sad+Jimmy%3F&c=0&x=10&d=1552379)
Its Alex, Jimmy Urine the lead singer to Mindless Self Indulgence and Ashley... Jimmy is the guy they are saying they know personally and sells drugs. Yea, those crazy band singers, selling drugs to all the kids and making nice with them. They don't make enough money from their music...they need a side job...ridiculous.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 05:04:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 05:07:00 PM
Is this family Mormon, or perhaps Scientologists?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 05:32:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 06:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:45:00, Antigen wrote:
"But where's that pic of Alex? 2nd pic in what page? Vampirefreaks doesn't have any and the studio's front page, well the only boy who might be refered to as in the middle looks to be about 4 years old.
Anybody? Please, I want to see a pic of this big, bad, scary drug kingpin.Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
This is the picture of Alex...
http://vampirefreaks.com/lists.php?user ... cream&n=10 (http://vampirefreaks.com/lists.php?user=When_You_Scream&n=10)
The middle guy woth the glasses on...
And here's the other person they were refering to as a drug dealer when they found out that the first was the very kid these posts are about...
http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?pi ... &d=1552379 (http://vampirefreaks.com/picview.php?pic_id=6523503&user=When_You_Scream&uid=189854&title=Awe%2C+why+you+so+sad+Jimmy%3F&c=0&x=10&d=1552379)
Its Alex, Jimmy Urine the lead singer to Mindless Self Indulgence and Ashley... Jimmy is the guy they are saying they know personally and sells drugs. Yea, those crazy band singers, selling drugs to all the kids and making nice with them. They don't make enough money from their music...they need a side job...ridiculous."
Alex is the one on the top row, longer blonde hair, and sunglasses on...not the very middle guy. You have the wrong picture up of him on the Free Alex banner.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 06:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 06:27:00 PM
It's an older picture of him, but Alex none the less...
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 06:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Being changed as we speak I believe. Stay tuned."
That's much better. I'll see if someone can gather a more recent picture for you.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 04, 2006, 06:57:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 16:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Trust me, they're on here reading all of this. They're usually the ones making snide and crude comments about the girlfriend and her family. They just don't care, it would mean, that by pulling Alex out, they would have to admit to making a mistake. And being right is worth more to them than actually seeing that their son gets the correct kind of help."
Is that why they ran away when they got caught in that lie? Hmmmmmm.
Sad situation.
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:17:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:25:00 PM
And he'll have been through the seminars, so after he finds some adjectives for his magical child and does a rockstar dance, he'll become "real" just like the Velveteen Rabbit.
Of course he won't end up like any other ex-programees, unable to rid their minds of the torture and abuse experienced in WWASP programs. We'll never see him on this forum. Not THEIR son, he must be different somehow.
Any other guesses on how he'll turn out five years from now?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 07:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 16:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I wonder how Alex's parents envision their family five years from now. That he'll be sitting at the dinner table, crewneck sweater neatly tied around his shoulders, passing the potatoes politely while home on his college break? Of course as someone pointed out his hair has already been cut against his will, so he'll have a nice military-type cut.
And he'll have been through the seminars, so after he finds some adjectives for his magical child and does a rockstar dance, he'll become "real" just like the Velveteen Rabbit.
Of course he won't end up like any other ex-programees, unable to rid their minds of the torture and abuse experienced in WWASP programs. We'll never see him on this forum. Not THEIR son, he must be different somehow.
Any other guesses on how he'll turn out five years from now?"
This is Ashley, and hopefully he will come back the same Alex I've known and loved. Hopefully he will still be as in love with me as he once said he was. That and probably in some serious counseling. For some reason I don't see him leaving me, the one that's doing all she can to help, for someone who can't love him for who he is and cast him away to be "fixed" by people they don't even know. He left once before, I don't see him not able to do it again...
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:01:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:Yeah Ashley, tell these people how you helped Alex by paying for his drugs which went from pot smoking before he met you to heroin and ecstasy since.
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 16:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I wonder how Alex's parents envision their family five years from now. That he'll be sitting at the dinner table, crewneck sweater neatly tied around his shoulders, passing the potatoes politely while home on his college break? Of course as someone pointed out his hair has already been cut against his will, so he'll have a nice military-type cut.
And he'll have been through the seminars, so after he finds some adjectives for his magical child and does a rockstar dance, he'll become "real" just like the Velveteen Rabbit.
Of course he won't end up like any other ex-programees, unable to rid their minds of the torture and abuse experienced in WWASP programs. We'll never see him on this forum. Not THEIR son, he must be different somehow.
Any other guesses on how he'll turn out five years from now?"
This is Ashley, and hopefully he will come back the same Alex I've known and loved. Hopefully he will still be as in love with me as he once said he was. That and probably in some serious counseling. For some reason I don't see him leaving me, the one that's doing all she can to help, for someone who can't love him for who he is and cast him away to be "fixed" by people they don't even know. He left once before, I don't see him not able to do it again..."
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yeah Ashley, tell these people how you helped Alex by paying for his drugs which went from pot smoking before he met you to heroin and ecstasy since. "
Is this story anything like that drug dealer in the picture story? :lol: :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:10:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 08:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 15:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Being changed as we speak I believe. Stay tuned."
That's much better. I'll see if someone can gather a more recent picture for you."
Cool.
Excepting drug activity for personal use or free
distribution from the sweep of the CSA would discourage the consumption of
lawful controlled substances.
acting US Solicitor General, Paul Clement; Ashcroft v. Raich
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:I have no idea. Doesnt matter Ashley knows
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yeah Ashley, tell these people how you helped Alex by paying for his drugs which went from pot smoking before he met you to heroin and ecstasy since. "
Is this story anything like that drug dealer in the picture story? :lol: :lol: "
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:14:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:19:00 PM
http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/p ... /index.php (http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/press/reviews/bigcheese/index.php)
There's plenty more where that came from...surf their site a little...
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you guys are still really questioning the fact of Jimmy Urine in the photo here:
http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/p ... /index.php (http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/press/reviews/bigcheese/index.php)
There's plenty more where that came from...surf their site a little..."
I'm not questioning you. I should have put "drug dealer" in quotes. I was using you catching them in a lie to question their 'story' now. Thanks for the headsup about Jimmy!! :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:23:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:24:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:23:00, Anonymous wrote:if you read earlier posts i beleive stealing his mothers Vicodin was another
"Are there any other drugs you'd like to throw into the mix? Crack, perscription drugs, speed, acid, shrooms? You might as well while you're at it..."
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 08:27:00 PM
And ashley, you absolutely rock! You're the friend we all wish we had when we were locked up, but very, very few actually did have. The anon poster is probably right, though. And he might even say that he doesn't want to talk to you. Just don't you buy that. If it happens that way, give it time and let him know it's alright.
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:I have no idea about the drug dealer. I do know about the drugs though. Ashley cant deny it if shes honest with herself.
"So what about that drug dealer? Still sticking by that one? Where's all the devil worship stuff? YOu're posting ona public forum, expect people to call bullshit on you if it fits."
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:31:00, Anonymous wrote:dont you think helping the person you love with his drug addiction is hurtful? From all these posts the thing that stands out is that he really has some issues.
"I never came here claiming to be perfect and say I never experimented along with everyone around me, but I do challenge his whole family to a drug test...we'll see who passes..."
Post by: WWFSMD on January 04, 2006, 08:38:00 PM
The present system is among the most impractical imaginable, if the facilitation of learning is your aim.
--Neil Postman and Charles Weingartner
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:40:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 04, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
From all these posts the thing that stands out is that he really has some issues. "
Whatever issues he may or may not have are going to be seriously, profoundly worsened in a place like that.
The Constitution of the United States is a law for rulers and people equally in war and peace. And covers with the shield of it's protection all classes of men at all times and under all circumstances.
--US Supreme Court, Ex Parte Milligan
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
I agree with Antigen, we all wish we'd had a friend like you. By giving out your name and info, some people around here are going to attack you, and it gives you about a 2% taste of how bad Alex will get it in his program. Stay strong and please don't give up!
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 08:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI have no idea about the drug dealer. I do know about the drugs though. Ashley cant deny it if shes honest with herself."
On 2006-01-04 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So what about that drug dealer? Still sticking by that one? Where's all the devil worship stuff? YOu're posting ona public forum, expect people to call bullshit on you if it fits."
You seemed to know quite a bit about the "drug dealer" prior to everyone finding out he was someone famous...
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 04, 2006, 08:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"MY GOD. Or maybe you people have better things to do than discuss the personal life of someone you don't even know! COME ON NOW, SERIOUSLY! Do you even know this girl? If not, how can you even have an opinion... based on her myspace profile? Get fucking real. Get out of your internet universe bubble and discover the fact that fornits means nothing to 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of the population, and this thread means even less. Do you come here just to fight or what? I don't get it..?? :???: :???: :???:
POINTLESS!"
I'll second that. I also wonder why so many who take her bio seriously, do not take others seriously who write about varied success in spite of the various programs.
It's amazing. If you give a hint that you're fucked up, you must be serious. But if you give a hint that you're just fine and doing well, you're a damned liar. What's up with that?
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:40:00, Anonymous wrote:ever heard of a toothache? drs prescribe it all the time
"His mom is on Vicodin and is pissed that he allegedly took some, I agree with Ashley that the whole family should be drug tested. Alas, in a WWASP world, though, the payee reigns supreme. His parents found the perfect place if they want to project all of their issues on Alex and never be called on a single thing they've done."
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:08:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:53:00, Anonymous wrote:other people do post here too you know
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI have no idea about the drug dealer. I do know about the drugs though. Ashley cant deny it if shes honest with herself."
On 2006-01-04 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So what about that drug dealer? Still sticking by that one? Where's all the devil worship stuff? YOu're posting ona public forum, expect people to call bullshit on you if it fits."
You seemed to know quite a bit about the "drug dealer" prior to everyone finding out he was someone famous..."
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 09:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
From all these posts the thing that stands out is that he really has some issues.
Really? It's funny you would say that since all those posts about this kids terrible issues are coming from the same place. What, you guys so po dunk you share the same computer w/ everyone you know?
Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And the big bag of pot found in the car door of his mom's car and bedroom closet along with all her smoking paraphenalia were perscibed by a doctor/dentist too? We're talking about the same woman that tried to hide her cigarette habit from the whole family too..."
and the plot thickens
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:10:00, Antigen wrote:you moron this is the public library
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
From all these posts the thing that stands out is that he really has some issues.
Really? It's funny you would say that since all those posts about this kids terrible issues are coming from the same place. What, you guys so po dunk you share the same computer w/ everyone you know?Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.
----Bill Warbis
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:pretty much
"I don't think public libraries are open every weeknight till 9:30pm and I'm pretty sure they are closed on Sundays. I also don't know of any person who is asinine enough to sit in a public library and post on a forum site for hours. And, what luck would it be that everyone you know happens to post off of the same public library computer. I know for a fact that there is more than 1 computer in a library. So, are you standing in a line waiting to get your next bash in?"
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:42:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 04, 2006, 09:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Whooops...I guess the library closed."
::bwahaha::
I give money for church organs in the hope the organ music will distract the congregation's attention from the rest of the service.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 04, 2006, 09:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 16:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Trust me, they're on here reading all of this. They're usually the ones making snide and crude comments about the girlfriend and her family. They just don't care, it would mean, that by pulling Alex out, they would have to admit to making a mistake. And being right is worth more to them than actually seeing that their son gets the correct kind of help."
I'm just wondering why they don't get the court's attention for forcing this kid to violate the law by being out of jurisdiction. They are legally responsible for this kid. If he were to bust a ball thru someone's window, the parents would be liable. Why aren't the parents liable for his absence to answer for the charges? :???:
And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 09:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:54:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 16:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Trust me, they're on here reading all of this. They're usually the ones making snide and crude comments about the girlfriend and her family. They just don't care, it would mean, that by pulling Alex out, they would have to admit to making a mistake. And being right is worth more to them than actually seeing that their son gets the correct kind of help."
I'm just wondering why they don't get the court's attention for forcing this kid to violate the law by being out of jurisdiction. They are legally responsible for this kid. If he were to bust a ball thru someone's window, the parents would be liable. Why aren't the parents liable for his absence to answer for the charges? :???:And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
"
We all have tried and alas, by having their lawyer show up to the court date to reschedule, Alex is not missing a date and is not in trouble for it. The question is, how long can they keep him from the court system?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 10:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"oh and cocaine on a daily basis. "
how does he afford all these drugs?
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 19:03:00, Anonymous wrote:Sucking penis for money.
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"oh and cocaine on a daily basis. "
how does he afford all these drugs? "
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 04, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
Quote
We all have tried and alas, by having their lawyer show up to the court date to reschedule, Alex is not missing a date and is not in trouble for it. The question is, how long can they keep him from the court system?"
You start with "We" and go to "Their". Who is "their" Lawyer? This doesn't sound like the prosecutor.
If you are the parent of a minor, and you have taken steps to impede a hearing, then yes - YOU are responsible. That kid can't sign for his own library card without you being held financially accountable for his overdue books.
It also follows that, if the lawyer has information on the whereabouts of someone due to appear, it is the lawyer's responsibility to communicate to the party that they must appear - not make vague excuses as to why the party is absent. Is the court even aware that this kid is out of the state?
War is God?s way of teaching Americans geography.
--Ambrose Bierce (died 1914)
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 10:24:00 PM
Quote
I'm just wondering why they don't get the court's attention for forcing this kid to violate the law by being out of jurisdiction. They are legally responsible for this kid. If he were to bust a ball thru someone's window, the parents would be liable. Why aren't the parents liable for his absence to answer for the charges?
Sounds like the court knows, but the court is alright with it just so long as he's in "treatment" and not out giving friends lifts around town.
This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
Post by: Antigen on January 04, 2006, 10:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
you moron this is the public library
What, a private library? Cause every public one I know of goes after the form lib.mi.us. Maybe you're just used to lying to a different class of people.
In all life one should comfort the afflicted, but verily, also, one should afflict the comfortable, and especially when they are comfortably, contentedly, even happily wrong
--John Kenneth Galbraith
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 10:45:00 PM
Post by: Helena Handbasket on January 04, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
Quote
Sounds like the court knows, but the court is alright with it just so long as he's in "treatment" and not out giving friends lifts around town.
That was the impression I got: any treatment is "good treatment". So the parents can send kids off to the equivalent of the Heaven's Gate cult, and tell the court he's in "treatment", and it's all good. No questions asked. No one questions this?
Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
Post by: WWFSMD on January 04, 2006, 10:59:00 PM
During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution.
--James Madison, U.S. President
Post by: Anonymous on January 04, 2006, 11:59:00 PM
I had a pending court case while at Cross Creek. It was basically handled without me, nobody asked my opinions, and the court was fine with my placement in a program.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 07:01:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:26:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Interesting, is this person still selling drugs?"
I havent seen him around lately. i dont buy drugs so im not sure whats up with him"
Odds are strong that Alex' parents have probably tried to recruit the parents of every kid he knows. Do you know the kid's parents? Think they'd fall for it?
Doesn't matter if he's actually a drug dealer or not. All it takes is the parents belief that he is, backed by substantial sums of money. Ask anybody I went to school with and they'll tell you they know for a fact I was a heroin junkie. Fact is I've never seen the stuff. Doesn't matter, though. Mom got it into her head somehow, sent me off to rehab. Therefore, in most ppl's minds, it MUST have been true.[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
"
Alex has admitted to doing a lot of different drugs.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 07:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:26:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Interesting, is this person still selling drugs?"
I havent seen him around lately. i dont buy drugs so im not sure whats up with him"
Odds are strong that Alex' parents have probably tried to recruit the parents of every kid he knows. Do you know the kid's parents? Think they'd fall for it?
Doesn't matter if he's actually a drug dealer or not. All it takes is the parents belief that he is, backed by substantial sums of money. Ask anybody I went to school with and they'll tell you they know for a fact I was a heroin junkie. Fact is I've never seen the stuff. Doesn't matter, though. Mom got it into her head somehow, sent me off to rehab. Therefore, in most ppl's minds, it MUST have been true.[1971 - 2001] the darkest chapter in Federal law enforcement history.
Committee on Government Reform
"
Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 07:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try."
They're sure talking about Ashley's mom. They seem to have some strange fascination with telling Ashley's mother how to raise her kid. Are they calling for the heads of the other kids that were in the car or is this just an Ashley thing?
When he [Califano] claims that the voters of Arizona and California did not know what they were voting for when they supported the two initiatives, he reminds me of the way Serbia's President Slobodan Milosevic reacted to recent election results in that country.
-- George Soros -- Sunday, February 2 1997; Page C01 The Washington Post
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 07:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 13:45:00, Antigen wrote:
"But where's that pic of Alex? 2nd pic in what page? Vampirefreaks doesn't have any and the studio's front page, well the only boy who might be refered to as in the middle looks to be about 4 years old.
Anybody? Please, I want to see a pic of this big, bad, scary drug kingpin.Those who control the past, control the future; and those who control the present, control the past.
--George Orwell
"
That statement shows how retarded you are. Or young and immature. (big bad scary drug kingpin?)
Please so do child molesters look different also maybe there penis is always hanging out of there pants.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 07:16:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex has admitted to doing a lot of different drugs."
After I had been in my program for a little while I was willing to admit to just about anything to get them to leave me alone. Most kids end up admitting to far worse things than they've really done because of the pressure in there. Instead of just burying your head in the sand and hoping this all works out, why not ask some of the older graduates of some of these programs how it worked out for them? Ask them about the kinds of relationships that they have with their parents now. Some of us have recently gotten out, some have been out for years but the emotional damage lasts long after leaving. Many of us don't speak to our parents at all. I hope that doesn't happen to Alex's parents, but it's a good bet it will have far reaching effects.
If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 07:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
That statement shows how retarded you are. Or young and immature. (big bad scary drug kingpin?)
Please so do child molesters look different also maybe there penis is always hanging out of there pants."
No, it shows how stupid you guys are!! Y'all got busted in a big fat lie. That was no drug dealer, that was the lead singer to some band. You guys kept harping on the "drug dealer" in the picture, so people were asking to see it. The requests were ignored at first so she got a little fascetious. No different than the other person asking in all CAPS. It was frustration.
If I am of the opinion that it is inexpedient to assign to the government the task of operating railroads, hotels, or mines, I am not an "enemy of the state" any more than I can be called an enemy of sulfuric acid because I am of the opinion that, useful though it may be for many purposes, it is not suitable either for drinking, or for washing one's hands.
Ludwig Von Mises
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 07:25:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quoteif you read earlier posts i beleive stealing his mothers Vicodin was another"
On 2006-01-04 17:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Are there any other drugs you'd like to throw into the mix? Crack, perscription drugs, speed, acid, shrooms? You might as well while you're at it..."
well shame on him. They weren't prescribed for him.
From what I have read. Ashley and family should have let them work together as a family. Maybe they wouldn't have went to such extreme measures. You should learn from this Ashley and get some professional help so you have someone to talk to about the guilt, there must be some. Everyone is blaming Alex's parents they like many other parents are trying to help. Like you ex students say they trick the parents.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 07:35:00 AM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 07:48:00 AM
Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 07:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 18:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And the big bag of pot found in the car door of his mom's car and bedroom closet along with all her smoking paraphenalia were perscibed by a doctor/dentist too? We're talking about the same woman that tried to hide her cigarette habit from the whole family too..."
So what that o-k's it? Did she say here Alex try this. what about the ecstasy, crack, ect...
I don't know this family. I don't agree with these programs. but Pot is safer and kills less people then alcohol. 90% of the population dose it. That is why a lot of states are trying to legalize it. Vicoden is a proscribed medication. I doubt she bought it off the streets. Trying to make her look bad so you look better maybe? Instead of beating up on the family why don't you write in a journal then you and Alex can read it together when he gets out. beating up on the parents is not going to get him out. What happens if when he gets out the one thing he wants is his mom and girlfriend do you think you/her will be able to do that after this. You should start thinking about Alex's feelings. From what I read from the family at one time they did have a good relationship and a pretty good upbringing. He may want both of you and he should not have to choose.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 07:58:00 AM
I understand that the parents are scared. I understand that they feel like they need to do something...I've been there. But, the fact remains that in all likelihood the place he's in now is going to do far more damage to both him and the relationship between he and his parents than the lifestyle he was living before going in did or would have. One of the hardest things we have to do as parents is to let our kids learn from their mistakes. Sometimes it doesn't happen in the time frame we'd like. Sometimes it doesn't happen in the manner we'd like, but ultimately they have to go through it. There is no magic solution that these programs advertise.
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 08:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:11:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try."
They're sure talking about Ashley's mom. They seem to have some strange fascination with telling Ashley's mother how to raise her kid. Are they calling for the heads of the other kids that were in the car or is this just an Ashley thing?When he [Califano] claims that the voters of Arizona and California did not know what they were voting for when they supported the two initiatives, he reminds me of the way Serbia's President Slobodan Milosevic reacted to recent election results in that country."
-- George Soros -- Sunday, February 2 1997; Page C01 The Washington Post
Any of the kids. If you read back Alex's mom only wrote once. and I know for a fact she is no longer reading this site and dose not want to here about it. Family memmbers are all staying away. It should have been handled different. In a more mature way.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 08:05:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:16:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex has admitted to doing a lot of different drugs."
After I had been in my program for a little while I was willing to admit to just about anything to get them to leave me alone. Most kids end up admitting to far worse things than they've really done because of the pressure in there. Instead of just burying your head in the sand and hoping this all works out, why not ask some of the older graduates of some of these programs how it worked out for them? Ask them about the kinds of relationships that they have with their parents now. Some of us have recently gotten out, some have been out for years but the emotional damage lasts long after leaving. Many of us don't speak to our parents at all. I hope that doesn't happen to Alex's parents, but it's a good bet it will have far reaching effects.If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell
"
He admitted before going in. I also hope someday he can come to understand they were trying to help. right or wrong but you are right chances are he wont talk to them for a long time.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 08:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
I know for a fact she is no longer reading this site and dose not want to here about it.
I'm sure she doesn't and that's a sad, sad thing. I'm also quite sure that the program is warning her against listening to the naysayers. They absolutely cannont STAND to have their methods questioned in any form or fashion.
Quote
It should have been handled different. In a more mature way. "
I'm not sure I understand this. Handled differently by whom?
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.
-- John F. Kennedy (1917-63), U.S. Democratic politician, president. Speech, 13 March 1962, the White House.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 08:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
He admitted before going in. I also hope someday he can come to understand they were trying to help. right or wrong but you are right chances are he wont talk to them for a long time."
Just to give you some insight, I'm 40 years old and this STILL haunts me to this day. My father and I have had a tumultuous relationship over the years after getting out and now we haven't spoken in over 5 years. It still tears my heart out. I really hope Alex's parents realize this before its too late to do something about it.
In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.
--James Madison, U.S. President
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 08:15:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:58:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"I bet it makes a HUGE difference to Alex that mom's sparking up a spliff but he gets sent away. Talk about being hypocritical!!!
I understand that the parents are scared. I understand that they feel like they need to do something...I've been there. But, the fact remains that in all likelihood the place he's in now is going to do far more damage to both him and the relationship between he and his parents than the lifestyle he was living before going in did or would have. One of the hardest things we have to do as parents is to let our kids learn from their mistakes. Sometimes it doesn't happen in the time frame we'd like. Sometimes it doesn't happen in the manner we'd like, but ultimately they have to go through it. There is no magic solution that these programs advertise.for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion."
--Alexander Hamilton
For the most part I agree. I don't believe I would send my child there. But the difference is you have been there they haven't. It doesn't make them bad people. It doesn't sound like they sent him there just to get rid of him. They were probley afraid and felt they were doing there best for him. Just because you and I would let them learn on there own doesn't make us better. They were probley afraid that the harder drugs could kill him.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 08:17:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:20:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
That statement shows how retarded you are. Or young and immature. (big bad scary drug kingpin?)
Please so do child molesters look different also maybe there penis is always hanging out of there pants."
No, it shows how stupid you guys are!! Y'all got busted in a big fat lie. That was no drug dealer, that was the lead singer to some band. You guys kept harping on the "drug dealer" in the picture, so people were asking to see it. The requests were ignored at first so she got a little fascetious. No different than the other person asking in all CAPS. It was frustration.If I am of the opinion that it is inexpedient to assign to the government the task of operating railroads, hotels, or mines, I am not an "enemy of the state" any more than I can be called an enemy of sulfuric acid because I am of the opinion that, useful though it may be for many purposes, it is not suitable either for drinking, or for washing one's hands.
Ludwig Von Mises
"
Sorry wrong person. I didnt say anything about the drug dealer. I don't know who any of the kids are.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 08:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
For the most part I agree. I don't believe I would send my child there. But the difference is you have been there they haven't. It doesn't make them bad people. It doesn't sound like they sent him there just to get rid of him. They were probley afraid and felt they were doing there best for him. Just because you and I would let them learn on there own doesn't make us better. They were probley afraid that the harder drugs could kill him. "
I'm not saying they're bad parents or bad people. Not in the least. Misinformed maybe. Desperate, which makes them easy marks, but not bad people. I do wish they'd open up their minds a little and read some of the things people have to say here. Believe it or not, most of us really do care what happens to these families who get caught up in this whole mess. We don't want to see them go through the long term problems that we have. When parents are scared, they're vulnerable and gullible. The programs count on that. They also count on isolation. Never let the mark here anything contradictory to what they're teaching. It really is sad. These places tear families apart under the guise of "helping" them.
If you think yourself too wise to involve
yourself in government, you will be governed
by those too foolish to govern.
--Plato
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 08:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
Sorry wrong person. I didnt say anything about the drug dealer. I don't know who any of the kids are."
Apologies then. :smile: Hard to keep track of the anons. Pick a username, it'll be easier to keep track of who's saying what.
Our youth can not understand why society chooses to criminalize a behavior with so little visible ill effect or adverse social impact... These young people have jumped the fence and found no cliff.
Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 08:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:07:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
I know for a fact she is no longer reading this site and dose not want to here about it.
I'm sure she doesn't and that's a sad, sad thing. I'm also quite sure that the program is warning her against listening to the naysayers. They absolutely cannont STAND to have their methods questioned in any form or fashion.QuoteIt should have been handled different. In a more mature way. "
I'm not sure I understand this. Handled differently by whom?Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
-- John F. Kennedy (1917-63), U.S. Democratic politician, president. Speech, 13 March 1962, the White House.
There is a lot that happen that has not been typed here. They know. I will not say it because they will try to find some way to justify it or change the subject with a drug his mom used or something. I understand you hate these programs. That is why it is easier to side with them. But there is always 2 sides to every story.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 08:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 05:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
There is a lot that happen that has not been typed here. They know. I will not say it because they will try to find some way to justify it or change the subject with a drug his mom used or something. I understand you hate these programs. That is why it is easier to side with them. But there is always 2 sides to every story."
Yes, there are. I'm not saying the parents don't have reason to be concerned. I'm just trying to give insight as to what their solution is really doing. I don't hate all programs or all people associated with programs. I think a lot of them believe that they're doing the right thing. They believe they have the solution, but unfortunately there is no singular solution. No magic pill, no magic program. These places generally believe in the Tough Love premise. It's flawed from the get-go. From NMHA http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm) Experts agree that a confrontational approach is not appropriate. Most correctional and military experts agree that a confrontational model, employing tactics of intimidation and humiliation, is counterproductive for most youth in the juvenile justice system. The use of this kind of model has led to disturbing incidents of abuse. For youth of color (who represent the vast majority of the juveniles sentenced to boot camps)-as well as for youth with emotional, behavioral, or learning problems-degrading tactics may be particularly inappropriate and potentially damaging. The bullying style and aggressive interactions that characterize the boot camp environment fail to model the pro-social behavior and development of empathy that these youth really need to learn.
Positive changes demonstrated while in the program may not last when a youth returns to his community. Many adult and juvenile offenders sentenced to boot camps report that the program is helpful to them and they feel more positive about their futures. It is unclear, however, whether these attitudinal changes persist after youth leave the boot camp, or whether they are related to actual changes in behavior once a youth returns to his community. Without significant therapeutic intervention while in the program, as well as specialized aftercare following release, boot camp programs have been consistently unsuccessful in "rehabilitating" juvenile or adult offenders.
And, if this kid is at SCL he's got a very good chance of being sent out of the country where US laws can't protect him (not like they really do anything here, but look up CASA and Tranquility Bay, its even worse).
When I told the people of Northern Ireland that I was an atheist, a woman in the audience stood up and said, "Yes, but is it the God of the Catholics or the God of the Protestants in whom you don't believe?"
-- Quentin Crisp
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 09:11:00 AM
If they weren't bad parents before, they just enrolled themselves in that category by their actions. There is no excuse.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 09:15:00 AM
Quote
And, if this kid is at SCL he's got a very good chance of being sent out of the country where US laws can't protect him (not like they really do anything here, but look up CASA and Tranquility Bay, its even worse).
DONT THINK MONTANA LAW WILL PROTECT HIM EITHER. Those of us who were there know what goes on: humiliation, fear and abuse. I love it when people who never spent time in a program as a student tell us we are wrong. :roll:
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 09:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 06:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
And, if this kid is at SCL he's got a very good chance of being sent out of the country where US laws can't protect him (not like they really do anything here, but look up CASA and Tranquility Bay, its even worse).
DONT THINK MONTANA LAW WILL PROTECT HIM EITHER.
I don't. That's why I said "not like they really do anything here", but ya gotta admit that the chances of anything being done is even more remote if the kid is out of the country.
A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 09:20:00 AM
Quote
Experts agree that a confrontational approach is not appropriate. Most correctional and military experts agree that a confrontational model, employing tactics of intimidation and humiliation, is counterproductive for most youth in the juvenile justice system. The use of this kind of model has led to disturbing incidents of abuse. For youth of color (who represent the vast majority of the juveniles sentenced to boot camps)-as well as for youth with emotional, behavioral, or learning problems-degrading tactics may be particularly inappropriate and potentially damaging. The bullying style and aggressive interactions that characterize the boot camp environment fail to model the pro-social behavior and development of empathy that these youth really need to learn.
Positive changes demonstrated while in the program may not last when a youth returns to his community. Many adult and juvenile offenders sentenced to boot camps report that the program is helpful to them and they feel more positive about their futures. It is unclear, however, whether these attitudinal changes persist after youth leave the boot camp, or whether they are related to actual changes in behavior once a youth returns to his community. Without significant therapeutic intervention while in the program, as well as specialized aftercare following release, boot camp programs have been consistently unsuccessful in "rehabilitating" juvenile or adult offenders.
Great quote, couldn't of better said it myself!! And this is from the gosh-darn National Mental Health Association.
I found this part interesting too, about the alternative to these programs:
Quote
What is the alternative?
Youth who are involved with the juvenile justice system require an individualized approach that takes their strengths and needs into account. Programs and policies should be family-centered, including the family in all decision making about a child, as well as culturally and developmentally appropriate. Research has shown that small, community-based programs are more effective and less costly than correctional institutions, for the majority of children who come into contact with the juvenile justice system. Rather than removing children from their families and communities, which only increases their difficulties and sense of marginalization, most youth can be managed in their communities while they receive a full range of rehabilitative services, including mental health and substance abuse treatment.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE PARENTS. You are doing exactly what the professionals TELL YOU NOT TO DO. AND, the aftereffects are described quite well, just as all of the people who have been there say.
So tell me this. Is it thousands of us on myspace, god-knows how many on here, the NMHA, countless child-rights/advocate organizations, and many congressman support AT LEAST regulating these places.
And you choose to ignore all of it. All the evidence, first person testimony, everything. Why? Are this kid's parents lazy? They picked the most visible program on the internet advertising, and went with it? That's what it seems like.
Do you see why I think these people are bad parents??
How could a GOOD PARENT MAKE THIS MISTAKE EVERY MONTH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER!?!?!
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 09:21:00 AM
Quote
I don't. That's why I said "not like they really do anything here", but ya gotta admit that the chances of anything being done is even more remote if the kid is out of the country.
Sorry wasn't directing at you, more the parents of the kid, or any other parent thinking of sending their child.
Yes, the abuse is much more prevelent at the foreign facilities, but it certainly occurs at all the facilities. IF YOU WANT YOUR KID TO BE SAFE, DON'T SEND THEM TO WWASP. <---- best advice you'll receive, and it's free!
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 09:32:00 AM
I don't have enough information to decide whether or not these are "bad parents". I guess I"m looking at it through both of my parents eyes. My dad? Yes, bad parent. Would not even listen to any criticism of the program much less believe any of it. My mom on the other hand? Not a bad parent. She was railroaded into believing the hype. They (the program and my dad) scared her to death with the whole 'your kid will end up deadinsaneinjail without us' crap. She was genuinely worried back then and genuinely feels horrible about it now. Only time will tell what category Alex's parents fall into.
When we talk to god, it's prayer. When god talks to us, it's schizophrenia.
--Lily Tomlin, American actress
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 09:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteExperts agree that a confrontational approach is not appropriate. Most correctional and military experts agree that a confrontational model, employing tactics of intimidation and humiliation, is counterproductive for most youth in the juvenile justice system. The use of this kind of model has led to disturbing incidents of abuse. For youth of color (who represent the vast majority of the juveniles sentenced to boot camps)-as well as for youth with emotional, behavioral, or learning problems-degrading tactics may be particularly inappropriate and potentially damaging. The bullying style and aggressive interactions that characterize the boot camp environment fail to model the pro-social behavior and development of empathy that these youth really need to learn.
Positive changes demonstrated while in the program may not last when a youth returns to his community. Many adult and juvenile offenders sentenced to boot camps report that the program is helpful to them and they feel more positive about their futures. It is unclear, however, whether these attitudinal changes persist after youth leave the boot camp, or whether they are related to actual changes in behavior once a youth returns to his community. Without significant therapeutic intervention while in the program, as well as specialized aftercare following release, boot camp programs have been consistently unsuccessful in "rehabilitating" juvenile or adult offenders.
Great quote, couldn't of better said it myself!! And this is from the gosh-darn National Mental Health Association.
I found this part interesting too, about the alternative to these programs:QuoteWhat is the alternative?
Youth who are involved with the juvenile justice system require an individualized approach that takes their strengths and needs into account. Programs and policies should be family-centered, including the family in all decision making about a child, as well as culturally and developmentally appropriate. Research has shown that small, community-based programs are more effective and less costly than correctional institutions, for the majority of children who come into contact with the juvenile justice system. Rather than removing children from their families and communities, which only increases their difficulties and sense of marginalization, most youth can be managed in their communities while they receive a full range of rehabilitative services, including mental health and substance abuse treatment.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE PARENTS. You are doing exactly what the professionals TELL YOU NOT TO DO. AND, the aftereffects are described quite well, just as all of the people who have been there say.
So tell me this. Is it thousands of us on myspace, god-knows how many on here, the NMHA, countless child-rights/advocate organizations, and many congressman support AT LEAST regulating these places.
And you choose to ignore all of it. All the evidence, first person testimony, everything. Why? Are this kid's parents lazy? They picked the most visible program on the internet advertising, and went with it? That's what it seems like.
Do you see why I think these people are bad parents??
How could a GOOD PARENT MAKE THIS MISTAKE EVERY MONTH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER!?!?!"
Two problems with your premise:
NIH report was just that--a report, and not a study. The introduction explains that, and points out that it refers specifically to kids being treated for violence--hardly a characteristic of scl's general population.
NIH report refers to "boot camps." This is a military model, and has little or nothing to do with scl. Kids walk in lines, but the similarity ends there. No drills, physical punishment, humiliation or intimidation tactics--regardless of the lies you read. These kids are in classrooms, for pete's sake. The harshest physical challenge is basketball.
So the NIH report is interesting, but citing it here is akin to citing studies of confused kindergartners to explain the behavior of some of the folks on Fornits.
:roll:
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 09:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 06:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
Two problems with your premise:
NIH report was just that--a report, and not a study.
NMHA, not NIH.
Quote
The introduction explains that, and points out that it refers specifically to kids being treated for violence--hardly a characteristic of scl's general population.
You sure about that?
Quote
NIH report refers to "boot camps." This is a military model, and has little or nothing to do with scl. Kids walk in lines, but the similarity ends there. No drills, physical punishment, humiliation or intimidation tactics--regardless of the lies you read. These kids are in classrooms, for pete's sake. The harshest physical challenge is basketball.
What about this? http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=40#97248 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9227&forum=9&start=40#97248) Pictures don't lie.
Quote
So the NIH report is interesting, but citing it here is akin to citing studies of confused kindergartners to explain the behavior of some of the folks on Fornits.
Not really. The study uses the word bootcamp, but they also refer to confrontational 'therapy'. Are you seriously suggesting that confrontational therapy is not used at SCL?
We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore.
Mark Twain
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 11:23:00 AM
I feel it would have went better if at that point the mom said I don't know if she did it but if she did this is probley why Ashley who loves Alex is afraid for him. We have researched this place and a lot of kids now adults who have been there have some really scary stories here is the site please look into it. But instead they start this story put the family down then leave papers on there door step ring the bell and run. They were probley even afraid to open the door.
That is why I say things were handled wrong. Many other things.. they should have tried to sit down with his parents instead of starting this site. Not even they, her mom because realistically Ashley is a kid and has a lot of growing to do. All her mom had to say is he needs love. Please she has known Alex not even his whole family for about 6 months. She has know idea how much love is in the family. They were already dealing with a lot of feelings then these people start saying they don't care about him they just wanted him shipped away so they don't have to deal with him. They never once tried to understand what they were going through. From all this I can see why it is hard to talk to these people. They should have and should think about his feelings. He dose come from a loving family he has lost his way (most kids do) He may not have liked every decision his parents made. (what kid dose) It would be nice if they could all some how sit down and get to know each other stop blaming each other and get some kind of relationship I have a strong feeling in a year from now he is going to struggle with wanting his Parents and his girlfriend to make him feel whole. You mention you still struggle with your feeling with your dad. I am sure deep down inside you wish that wasn't an issue. I also believe that would make him very happy to have that when he got out. But after all the crazy shit that was done because of emotions I am afraid that would never happen. I am not trying to beat up on Ashley and her family. This is my opinion and I am aloud to have one. I do understand that you also have feeling about Alex. I just don't feel you are looking at the fact that his parents also do. The fact is that this world has a lot of different personality in it. People may do something different then you, It doesn't make them bad people.
Also all the people on this site who have gone to these schools. I am sorry your experience was so bad, but if people come here looking for info and challenge you at all some may just be looking for answers. It doesn't help when you attack them call them trolls it makes them leave. If you could try to remember this site is to inform people not beat them up. Some are really looking for answers
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 11:47:00 AM
I have no idea of the allegations you speak of as far as Alex's mom's car, leaving notes or whatever so I can't speak to that.
In an ideal world all the people that love and care about Alex would work together, but as long as his parents are involved with a program that isn't likely to happen.....even if Ashley and her family were less abrasive in their actions. Isolation is the key with these places. No dissenting opinions allowed, ever.
There's been some pretty pertinent and useful stuff posted here. Hope some of it finds its way to Alex's parents so at least they have some idea of what to expect out of that place 'cause SCL sure ain't gonna tell 'em.
You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 11:50:00 AM
Quote
If you could try to remember this site is to inform people not beat them up.
I didn't realize that was the purpose of this forum, who told you that?
Compliance is not character. Weakness is not strength. Regression is not growth. Toughlove is a hategroup. Time for some straight talk about the Troubled Parent Industry.
This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk.
Warning: this website promotes anonymous posting and parent/ program bashing without accountability. Have at it!
Post by: Troll Control on January 05, 2006, 12:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 06:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 06:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteExperts agree that a confrontational approach is not appropriate. Most correctional and military experts agree that a confrontational model, employing tactics of intimidation and humiliation, is counterproductive for most youth in the juvenile justice system. The use of this kind of model has led to disturbing incidents of abuse. For youth of color (who represent the vast majority of the juveniles sentenced to boot camps)-as well as for youth with emotional, behavioral, or learning problems-degrading tactics may be particularly inappropriate and potentially damaging. The bullying style and aggressive interactions that characterize the boot camp environment fail to model the pro-social behavior and development of empathy that these youth really need to learn.
Positive changes demonstrated while in the program may not last when a youth returns to his community. Many adult and juvenile offenders sentenced to boot camps report that the program is helpful to them and they feel more positive about their futures. It is unclear, however, whether these attitudinal changes persist after youth leave the boot camp, or whether they are related to actual changes in behavior once a youth returns to his community. Without significant therapeutic intervention while in the program, as well as specialized aftercare following release, boot camp programs have been consistently unsuccessful in "rehabilitating" juvenile or adult offenders.
Great quote, couldn't of better said it myself!! And this is from the gosh-darn National Mental Health Association.
I found this part interesting too, about the alternative to these programs:QuoteWhat is the alternative?
Youth who are involved with the juvenile justice system require an individualized approach that takes their strengths and needs into account. Programs and policies should be family-centered, including the family in all decision making about a child, as well as culturally and developmentally appropriate. Research has shown that small, community-based programs are more effective and less costly than correctional institutions, for the majority of children who come into contact with the juvenile justice system. Rather than removing children from their families and communities, which only increases their difficulties and sense of marginalization, most youth can be managed in their communities while they receive a full range of rehabilitative services, including mental health and substance abuse treatment.
THERE IS NO EXCUSE PARENTS. You are doing exactly what the professionals TELL YOU NOT TO DO. AND, the aftereffects are described quite well, just as all of the people who have been there say.
So tell me this. Is it thousands of us on myspace, god-knows how many on here, the NMHA, countless child-rights/advocate organizations, and many congressman support AT LEAST regulating these places.
And you choose to ignore all of it. All the evidence, first person testimony, everything. Why? Are this kid's parents lazy? They picked the most visible program on the internet advertising, and went with it? That's what it seems like.
Do you see why I think these people are bad parents??
How could a GOOD PARENT MAKE THIS MISTAKE EVERY MONTH OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER!?!?!"
Two problems with your premise:
NIH report was just that--a report, and not a study. The introduction explains that, and points out that it refers specifically to kids being treated for violence--hardly a characteristic of scl's general population.
NIH report refers to "boot camps." This is a military model, and has little or nothing to do with scl. Kids walk in lines, but the similarity ends there. No drills, physical punishment, humiliation or intimidation tactics--regardless of the lies you read. These kids are in classrooms, for pete's sake. The harshest physical challenge is basketball.
So the NIH report is interesting, but citing it here is akin to citing studies of confused kindergartners to explain the behavior of some of the folks on Fornits.
:roll: "
this is garbage and spin. go back and look at the NIH data. it is based on SIX LONGITUDINAL STUDIES and is a compilation of their findings.
look at the section that refers to RTC's, which SCL is, and you will see that STUDIES done
OVER TIME show that they are at best ineffective, and at worst damaging.
kids at RTC's are exposed to serious criminal juvenile delinquents and often become victims of crime INSIDE the RTC environment at the hands of other juveniles and often by uneducated, untrained staff who have never even had drug or background checks.
I want you to stop spinng and start reading, because you are an ignoramus.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 12:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 16:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteFinal exams? Most of the school year was missed because of skipping and spending time that should have been class time smoking pot. Grades were all F's. School functions? They were not even interested. Not much chance of graduating either. Sneaking out of the house often when everyone was asleep to drive around and do ecstacy and coke at 3 in the morning. Going to strange clubs that promote drugs and other worse things to mess with an already confused mind. I go to school with these guys and it was more than the artwork and tatooes that must have scared these parents into action."
On 2006-01-03 16:12:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Did you see the Vampirefreaks.com web site When_You_Scream the pictures of the wise men one has his head cut off they all have blood dripping down them. Sorry I find that WRONG. I am aloud my opinion just they same as you and her.
Yeah, I saw the site and looked at some of the artwork. I also wandered around and read some of the blog entries. These kids biggest concern right now seems to revolve around final exams, school functions and shocking, provocative art. I was really looking hard for those cemetary pictures someone mentioned. Would love to see them. I've seen some stunningly good cemetary art before. Is this some of the good stuff? Maybe.
So, does that give anybody the right to have me locked away for my own good? Because I disagree with you about the quality and value of somebody's artwork? Is that what you find so strange about her parents? You just can't fathom how they could not be in a blind panic over this?
Yeah, you have your right to your opinion about art and friends and style and lifestyle. So does Alex.The clergy know that I know that they know that they do not know.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
"
I remember high school quite well. I'm sure you do "know" these kids---as members of a different social clique that you look down on.
So what if he was getting all Fs--if he even was, since I doubt seriously that you saw his report cards. He wouldn't be the first kid to repeat a year of high school. Should we throw every kid who flunks a year of school into a private prison? (Which is what RTCs like SCL amount to.)
We had all this gossip about what the "heads" clique (as opposed to the "frats") was into. Most of it was wildly exaggerated, as was how clean-cut the frats were. The frats dressed clean-cut and preppy and kissed the asses of all the adults---while going out drinking, smoking pot, and parking in cars to get laid on the weekends. And the frats listened to Rick Springfield and the Police and Pat Benatar. The heads dressed in jeans and t-shirts, smoked, and listened to Van Halen and Motley Crue and Metallica. And went out drinking, smoking pot, and parking in cars to get laid on the weekends.
The difference was that *most* of the heads dressed that way because jeans and t-shirts was what their parents could afford. The ones whose parents could afford better were heads because they couldn't hack the mind-numbing social conformity demanded by the frats.
I'm pegging you as either being one of the clean-cut outcasts who doesn't fit a group higher in the pecking order, or one of the other mind-numbing social conformity groups in the high school pecking order.
The kids in the mind-numbing social conformity groups snuck out at night, too. They were just absolutely convinced that the heads led these wildly exciting depraved lives.
I bridged both groups, and the outcast group, and the band group. There was a lot of debate as to what I was. So I knew what the heads did on the weekends wasn't much different than what the frats did on the weekends.
The biggest difference between the heads and the frats was the clothes, the makeup, and the music. They were all doing the same high school shit. Don't tell me your adult ass-kissing, social cookie-cutter friends aren't doing bits of all the same drugs, sneaking off in a car away from the eyes of most of their friends, on the weekends, because I know better.
I was born on a Monday, but I wasn't born last Monday.
I believe that *you* believe there's this huge difference in what the goth kids are doing and what the kids in your clique are doing.
When you get old enough as an adult that all traces of the old high school cliques have worn off so that you can't even guess what your friends and coworkers were like in high school without actually talking about high school, you'll find out that you were all doing the same things. It was just the music and the money and the clothes and the make-up, and who kissed the adults asses and who didn't, that was different.
Those preppy kids' ass-kissing of the adults was all a gigantic snow job, and all we kids knew it, even back then. They joined SADD and FBLA and Student Council and the National Honor Society---and then they all went out on the weekends and got drunk.
A few kids weren't doing any of it, and were naive enough not to realize that 90% of their fellow students were.
Flunking a year of high school doesn't stop you from graduating, it just means you repeat a year, and its small potatoes in the way your life works out.
There's a lot more to life than high school.
I liked a lot of people in the preppie crowd as people, I liked a lot of people in the head crowd as people. I didn't like a lot of the hypocrisy and assumptions about what the other kids were doing. And right now I'm pissed off at you for being so prim and engaging in all the gossip and adult ass-kissing and thinking we're all stupid enough to buy your snow job. Whatever they did or didn't do, there are plenty of kids in *your* social clique who are doing the same and just hiding it better under that clean-cut ass-kissing veneer. *You* may not be doing it, but some of your friends are doing a damned good job of hiding it from you---"Don't tell Dana, she's a goody-two-shoes and well, you know...."
Quit trying to blow smoke up our asses. We've all been through high school, we've all talked to the kids from the different cliques 20 years later and compared notes, and we're over it.
Sweetie--their friends ain't doin' anything much different from what *your* friends are doing.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 12:32:00 PM
Our high school years' drug abuse rates were higher than yours are. I hadn't been on campus a week before I knew where to buy pot and how much it cost. And I had a kid try to sell me methamphetamine in class my freshman year. The only reason there wasn't much coke was because it was expensive. Qualudes and meth were probably the most abused harder drugs. And pot laced with other stuff. And drugs stolen from Mommy. I could have sold my (prescribed) xanax for a bundle---I got offers.
That was just the stuff I didn't even have to *look* for. I never did anything harder than alcohol in high school (well, the xanax was prescription, and just for a short while) because I figured my brain was my meal ticket and didn't want to fuck it up.
The kids whose brains weren't a real good meal ticket to begin with didn't have a lot to lose from a little--or even a lot of--partying here and there.
The harder stuff was there, too. *I* just didn't know the details of where to get it because people knew I wasn't even buying the softer stuff. I was a goody two shoes, but I was one of the cool goody two shoes who wouldn't have a heart attack over what other kids were doing and narc people out.
Your stuff isn't any worse than our stuff was. Just the fads of which drugs are more popular changes---mostly based on what costs more because of fads in law enforcement.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 12:50:00 PM
Wooooowwww, that's some real hard core EEeeeeevil you've got right there, then.
Right.
You haven't met evil yet. You haven't even caught a whiff of its nasty stench.
The twenty-something year old guy that goes trolling the high schools looking for dates, gets the girl pregnant and splits after a year or two, leaving her holding the baby---*that* is the Real Thing. That is real evil.
The high school kid that's beating his girlfriend in secret, and you don't even know it's going on---you know her, you know him, but you don't know he's beating her, has raped her, is threatening to kill her if she breaks up. That is real evil.
The dad that's doing his daughter, who sits next to you in math class, and you don't know it. That is real evil.
The mom that's a drunk and the kid sitting next to you in English takes care of Mom instead of Mom taking care of him? That's mostly pathetic, but it's a hell of a lot closer to real evil than a knife on a picture of Jesus.
Spare us the high school melodrama.
Your moral compass obviously isn't developed enough yet to tell the difference between evil and stupid---either lying gossip that's stupid, or an attention-getting stunt that's stupid.
Real evil hurts real people in real life.
Stupid stunts that dance around petty blasphemies are the kind of penny ante crap that high school drama queens (even boy drama queens) blow up into a big deal. Those stunts are not a pimple on the ass of real evil.
Real evil like poor Alex may be in the hands of right now.
Julie
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex has admitted to doing a lot of different drugs.
Maybe so, maybe not. And we don't know the circumstances. Regardless, though, roughly half of all highschool and college kids surveyed each year for the National Institutes of Health also admit to having sample the pharmacopia.
**** Do you believe, based on that, that half of those kids belong in a WWASP program? ****
^^^^^^ Please Answer This ^^^^^^^^
Time is running out. The Indians' botanical knowledge is disappearing even faster than the plants themselves.
--Richard Schultes, Harvard University educator, authority on medicinal plants
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 12:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try.
Are you his mom or his dad?
This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 01:01:00 PM
I am afraid when he gets out he may want both his parents and girlfriend. Maybe all involved should at least think this over.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 01:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 09:55:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try.
Are you his mom or his dad?This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
"
Sorry just a friend of the family and someone who also loves Alex!
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 01:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It isn't the Goth thing that is the issue. His mom had not one problem with it. Goth clothes are very expensive she supplied it for him. As I said before, I would not send my kids there. Not because of this site. I didn't know about these schools until this happen. Because I believe kids loose there way then most of them find there way back on the right path, You have me pegged wrong. I was a burn out as they called it then. You could find me at the smoking doors, or at lunch getting high. I dropt out of school when I turn 16. Now I have kids a career I make 50 thousand a year. I found my way, and he probley would also. Some parents feel they have to do something that they cant just sit around and wait because they may end up dead or who knows what. I am not his parents this is just my take on it.
I am afraid when he gets out he may want both his parents and girlfriend. Maybe all involved should at least think this over."
You keep speaking of his parents good intentions. Their intentions are really immaterial to the issue. The issue is the outcome. His parents can have the best intentions in the world but if the kid is in an abusive place, what good are his parents 'good intentions' going to do him?
Never attempt to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
--Unanimous
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 01:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Everyone is blaming Alex's parents they like many other parents are trying to help.
Over the gate of the Farben slave factory at Aushwitz were the words "Arbeit Macht Frei", Work Makes us Free. See, the Nazis back then were just like the Nazis now. They were only trying to help. All those silly rumors about death camps and false arrests, they were just enemy propaganda from those [favorite scapegoat here] who were trying to destroy their society.
Here's a clue. Everyone is blaming Alex's parents because Alex's parents are the ones who paied to have Alex kidnapped and dissapeared and continue to hide him from the courts. So where'd you have him shipped off too, Mr. Azzopardi. This is Mr. Azzopardi, isn't it?
The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 01:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
They would never turn there back on him and tell him good luck getting home.
Depends on how many seminars they've been to.
for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 01:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:24:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
Everyone is blaming Alex's parents they like many other parents are trying to help.
Over the gate of the Farben slave factory at Aushwitz were the words "Arbeit Macht Frei", Work Makes us Free. See, the Nazis back then were just like the Nazis now. They were only trying to help. All those silly rumors about death camps and false arrests, they were just enemy propaganda from those [favorite scapegoat here] who were trying to destroy their society.
Here's a clue. Everyone is blaming Alex's parents because Alex's parents are the ones who paied to have Alex kidnapped and dissapeared and continue to hide him from the courts. So where'd you have him shipped off too, Mr. Azzopardi. This is Mr. Azzopardi, isn't it?The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
"
I already said this isnt his parent. I am a family friend. why would i say i woulnd send my kids if it was. Where do you get he is being hiden from the courts?
Once agian you and Ashley have no play in this open your eyes. I should have listend to the Azzopardi's and stayed away. Now I will. But at least I will let Alex know when he gets out I tryed to do what he wanted his mom and girlfriend in his life.
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 01:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 06:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
OF COURSE THESE PARENTS ARE BAD PARENTS. Anyone who thinks otherwise is lying to themselves. They picked one of THE most notoriously abusive programs in the country. They can't plead ignorance forever.
No, they really can! Just ask my mom.
Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 01:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
But at least I will let Alex know when he gets out I tryed to do what he wanted his mom and girlfriend in his life."
Please also let him know that there were strangers on a message board trying to help his family avoid the same pitfalls we've been through. I don't wish anything bad on his parents. I don't hate them, I've been where they are. I've been through to the other side of it....from both points of view. This subject came up on a message board so we responded. Most of the people here have been respectful in their disagreement with the parents choice. We've pointed out very specifically the potential (probable) damage that can and most likely will be done. Don't write us all off as uncaring SOBs on a website with nothing better to do than butt into people's lives. Many of us care very much and are simply telling what we've been through in an attempt to spare others the same fate.
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 01:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:51:00, Antigen wrote:
No, they really can! Just ask my mom
Or my dad.
668: The Neighbor of the Beast
--Anonymous Postman
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 02:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:55:00, Exit Plan wrote:
Wow- I must of missed that line, and it's an important one.
My father went to none, that's right, zero seminars and still managed to support the program no matter what I did to intervene.
What you have to understand is, when you are getting close to 18 - the school becomes desperate to keep you there. Family reps get reviewed on this sort of statistic. It's all about money, and a kid walking down the road is the equivilent of two staff's salaries for a year. It's a BIG deal to them when a kid decides to leave, and they do anything they can to stop this from happening.
If you want to read about my story in full detail, I put a link to my blog down in my sig, the first link. I also was at SCL and turned 18 and leaving wasn't as easy as one might think.
YES, his parents very well might turn their back on him. Why? I don't know, but I certainly never expected my father to and he did. (breaking our agreement I could leave when I was 18) You see, the school told him 'I wasn't ready', and he bought it hook-line-and sinker! Again, why? Because he hadn't seen me in seven months, hadn't spoken to me on the phone since I got there, and had nothing to go on accept what the program tells him.
They told him I was doing fine and 'making progress' right up untli I was about to leave. Then all of a sudden, 'I wasn't ready'. What a crock of shit that was! They will fill your parent full of fear, basically saying I would DIE if I left. Insanity I tell you, insanity.
The program really helps parents convince themself they are doing the right thing. To me, it's just crazy. It's enough to spend time at a horrible place like SCL, but then to leave and become a bumb with no money living on the streets? How fucked up can these places get??!?!?
AND THIS HAPPENS EVERYDAY, HERE, IN AMERICA!
YES, I get upset when the topic of exit plans come up because it's a hugely traumatic experience. I try to leave emotion out of this most of the time, but your assumptions are just too far from reality for me not to respond.
FORGET COMMON SENSE RIGHT NOW. It no longer applies to this situation. Don't trust anyone and expect the unexpected/worst to occur.
If you really care for this boy, I want you to let him know somehow you will be there for him if he decides to leave at 18. This is key. It is also very difficult to do because of their censorship of mail.
SCL kept my mothers letters from reaching me because precisely this reason. They made up unforgivable lies about my mother to scare me from contacting her, etc.. they took my meds that I needed to survive and said I couldn't have them if I left because 'my dad owned them'. This is an example of how WWASP works.
It tore my family apart, and we all still don't talk to each other. It's been five years.I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants.
-- A. Whitney Brown
"
It never ceases to amaze me. All these years later, different program, almost the exact same shit as I experienced! Thanks Exit! Glad you got out, sorry about the family. :smile:
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
--Denis Diderot, French encyclopedist
Post by: 69 on January 05, 2006, 02:12:00 PM
... and no big loss on the family. I am happier now than I ever was growing up. :grin:
What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 02:12:00 PM
Post by: 69 on January 05, 2006, 02:14:00 PM
Quote
I hope that my feelings of them getting him and not righting him off stay true.
I hope so too. I hope so too.
Quote
I will be here for Alex!!
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I have never seen the slightest scientific proof of the religious theories of heaven and hell, of future life for individuals, or of a personal God.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 02:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 08:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
Also all the people on this site who have gone to these schools. I am sorry your experience was so bad, but if people come here looking for info and challenge you at all some may just be looking for answers. It doesn't help when you attack them call them trolls it makes them leave. If you could try to remember this site is to inform people not beat them up. Some are really looking for answers
Please understand that there are over 3k registered users and a whole lot of anonymous users (like you). In order to have this site representative of all willing contributors, I cannot go around editing out the stuff I disagree with or the stuff I find counterproductive. You seem to be assuming that all of us hold to the same views; that if one anon poster says something out of line, that allows you to disregard all the rest.
Same goes for the opposition. Somebody damned sure has been grasping at straws to malign and discredit Ashley and her family, friends and favorite local rock star. Never mind who it was. I could never prove it one way or another, even if I wanted to. I think it was you or someone very close to you and I think you are one of this kids' parents.
So NOW you're in the mood to talk nuts and bolts and skip the ad hominems. Me too. Exit Plan has, not only some incredibly valuable information for you, but a pretty even keel about delivering it. Lot of these kids do.
I don't know how Alex's friends may have tried to influence you after you had him shipped off. I did read Ashley's account of those frantic phone calls she received. If you were a 17yo gal in love and got those phone calls, what would you do? If you were one of these kids' school mates or friends and read all about it and heard all about it on the gossip mill, what would you do? I haven't seen any reason to believe that Ashley was directly involved in trashing your car. Fact is, MOST Americans have at least an impulse to do something very, very ugly to people who have their friends (their own children) dissapeared to behavior modification camps.
What would you have them do? Nothing? Appeal to the authorities? Yeah, right! You got them all locked up w/ your lawyers and pretty fantasies about therapy and help and it's all for his own good.
They're kids, for christ's sake! Screening teenagers for antisocial behavior makes about as much sense as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimony. We know they're immature, outrageous, risk taking and often shocking. That's why we don't let them vote. But we don't lock them up for it.
A fundamentalist Christian President who claims God told him to invade Iraq ? an act that killed more than 150,000 civilians, mostly women and children ? is not that much different from a fundamentalist Islamic fanatic who claims it is the will of Allah that he send young men to America to crash airliners into office buildings and kill 3,000 plus.
DOUG THOMPSON
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 03:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 09:55:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 04:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
Alex's Parents haven't talked to his friends parents. They are handling there kid not anyone else's kids. Something a few people on this site should try.
Are you his mom or his dad?This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
"
Sorry just a friend of the family and someone who also loves Alex!"
Ok, then people other than his parents, people who love him as his girlfriend seems to, do have some standing to discuss his situation? The rest of us just have some past experience either with these programs (personally, I have a drawer full of demand letters from WWASP and it's various alter egos and friends) or with raising kids ta' day. My interest in discussing this issue is in sharing what I know.
And please let me tell you a story. I'm also 40 years old. My eldest and most baudacious blond bombshell of a dauther fell stone cold in love w/ a 21yo dope dealer (a real one, mind you, who's wife/child beating father was known about town as a Mafia wise guy) when she was 14yo. You think a fucked up car is something to cry about? I'm sure it was insured. Try this on for size.
After she ran away to be with Prince Psycho, one or two of her good friends persisted in talking to her if they met her in public or, occasionally, actually calling the house or calling someone who they knew would see her to invite her out or just let her know they still cared. She wasn't permitted, by psycho boy, to have any contact whatever with us or any friend who she had before they became an item.
Well, one of these friends happened to be in the grocery store one day when he saw Psycho Boy pimp slapping his friend (my daughter) around. He got between them and shoved the guy, said something along the lines of "pick on someone your own size, pussy!" So Psycho Boy went to work. First, he got all his friends and his big brother's friends (gang... no, really, not a pretend one) all spoilin' for a fight, saying the kid threatened him. Then he, with my daughter in the car, started harassing the kids' mother. He'd done that to us before, peeling out in front of the house, chasing us in traffic. And he'd done the same to her best friend's mom.
Well, Buster (the old friend, the current harassment target's son) came home while that was going on. Saw them in the car, having just laid tracks accross the front yard shouting threats at his mother. What did he do? Well what would you do if you were a 17yo boy dealing w/ a psycho like that and whom the local cops (for reasons we can only guess at) refused to reel in no matter who's face he pissed in or how hard?
He chased him. Right into an ambush. They beat him with a 2x4 and a brick, split his head open, damned near killed him.
So then, then, after the fact, then all of a sudden local law enforcement is all eager to 'help' me with my daugher. They claim that if I just file charges on her, then they can put her into a therapeutic boot camp.
Officer friendly neglected to mention that that involves my turning over custody and letting the state have at her. And he must have assumed that I didn't read the papers and so was unaware of his agencies poor track record w/ ajudicated youths. Just the year before, they had taken just such a young gal in just such a situation. After they coerced her into testifying (maybe falsely) against the thugs in her life, once she was completely isolated, in fear for her life of retribution and couldn't ever go home, then they set her up in an appartment down near the county line and pimped her to other officers.
So I knew better than to believe Officer Friendly or to take him up on his very generous offer to help.
Because of my own experience w/ TOUGHLOVE hategroups (see my sig and add 10 years prior of my familie's involvement with The Seed), I also knew that the private gulags were no better option. I also knew just what some of the folks talking to you in this thread are trying to tell you; that, no matter how terrifying it may be sometimes to watch your precious child veer at break-neck speed toward disaster, they have to, voluntarily, under their own steam, choose to do things differently. And, when they do, they need the love and support of real family. Not the money, I'm not talking financial bail outs and such. Just a true and honest welcome when they drop in for coffee and real moral support.
THAT is one of the precious things these programs take away. Would you ever trust your mother again if she hired some thug to kidnap you out of your bed?
My daughter's back home now. Working full time, engaged to marry the cutest li'll ol'e volunteer fireman you ever did see. They're all good kids. As soon as she realized she was in a bad situation and wanted to get out, she snuck out while psycho boy was sleeping and claimed that bus ticket we'd held open for her from the time we moved.
I can tell you now, with full confidence, that this girlfriend and their friends are nowhere NEAR the monsters some people around here are making them out to be. If they were, they probably wouldn't have the time or interest to geek out on websites like this. If they were, they wouldn't give a damned about Alex. If they were, they wouldn't have the wherewithall to take part in photo art and that very talented and ambitious photog wouldn't waste his time and money depending on their participation. They'd be too busy snitching, hunting down snitches, dodging the law, assaulting people who "dis" them and generally having a fucked up time living out their Sopranos fantasies.
They're just goth and, as Julie notes, they probably don't do any more or less drugs than any of their peers.
Are these parents bad parents? I don't know. I do know they're making a HUGE mistake right now. Doesn't matter if or what variety of issues Alex may have. WWASP's form of "treatment" is not therapeutic. It's extremely harmful. Litterally, doing nothing would be better. Not ideal, but better than this.
There's so much comedy on television. Does that cause comedy in the streets?
-- Dick Cavett
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 03:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
I already said this isnt his parent. I am a family friend. why would i say i woulnd send my kids if it was. Where do you get he is being hiden from the courts?
Sorry, having a hard time keeping up w/ the tail of this thread.
WWASP parents often lie. I know that sounds like a broad generalization, but it's true. See, in their minds, their cause is so just, their purpose so lofty that outsiders wouldn't understand. And so that justifies all kinds of trechery.
Kid had a court date and was removed from the state (possibly the country... these places often ship kids off if any of their friends or family are making noise about springing them)
Not that the courts are looking hot and heavy for him or anything. They're usually just as happy as anybody to believe, without scrutiny, the fiction that the kid in question is off getting 'help' for their issues.
But it's an asshole move to deny this kid, accused as he is, his day in court. In less than a year, he'll be qualified to vote or to go and kill and die for our country. Don't you think he's got some right to speak for himself in court?
How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 03:53:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 11:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"EXIT. I am really sorry to hear all the bad things. I have read your story and I think it is horrible that any parent would just right off there kid like that. I hope that my feelings of them getting him and not righting him off stay true. I will be here for Alex!! "
Normally, it's a cruel and evil thing to intentionally destroy someone's fond hope. But, in this case, your hope is dangerously misguided.
Here, see for yourself:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... category=1 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?category=1)
This is where program parents go when they have doubts and questions about the programs or about their kids. Pay close attention! They won't name the programs and they very agressively censor any dissent. They also tend to redirect any conversation away from the questions you ask and over to the necessity and unquestionable[sic] benefits of the Program.
But just read up. See what these people advise parents who's kids are asking to leave these programs or who's kids are home and who are not following their... what's it called? Home contract, I think, strictly enough.
They tell them just exactly what Exit Plan represents here; they tell them to effectively disown the kid in an attempt to help them find their low so they'll come crawling back.
Now, consider this. These parents have already agreed to have Alex taken against his will from his bed at night out to some mysterious place in Montana (or Jamaica) where he is prohibited from having any contact whatsoever with the outside world. Don't believe it? Pick up the phone, try calling him up to see how he's doing. You're a friend of the family, on good terms w/ the parents and generally in agreement about the kids' issues. Why in the world would they want to interfere w/ his communicating with you?
But they will. And his parents have agreed to this. What makes you think they'll pass on the next scene in the script when they tell them to disown him in order to save his life?
It is fear that first brought Gods into the world.
--Gallus Petronius, 1st Century Roman courtier
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 04:10:00 PM
Quote
I, too, am throwing in the towel.
I didn't see my daughter during the holidays. I left here at her treatment facility. I didn't see my slacker son for the holidays. My husband and I went to visit his brother and sister who live in Dallas. I had the best holiday I've had in some time. We stayed in a luxurious hotel, ate good food, it was relaxing. And the best part I didn't feel guilty at all.
I'm thinking my daughter may need a stint in the military. She has sabatoged yet again her attempt to go to college, by getting fired from her job, taking collect calls from the loser boyfriend, who is (was) in jail on a statutory rape charge. She isn't showing the maturity to leave the structured environment of rehab to the totally unstructered environment of college, even though it is a really small school where she was going. I just can't keep throwing good money after bad. I've spent over $30,000 and just can't bankrupt myself behind her. I love her dearly, but my resolution is to take care of me.
Take care of you. I have been reading over and over, the story of the prodigal son.
One day, our children may return to us. I keep that hope, but I know for my own sanity, I must move on with life.
These programs don't work, if you don't want to end up like these parents - beware.
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Thank you Antigen! We can only hope that "someone" will read what you are saying and forward that information on to Alex's family, and perhaps they will listen. Maybe if they hear it enough, and respect the fact that you are speaking from true experience, this will help. Maybe? Maybe?"
Thanks, I'm trying. I don't really hold out much hope that a parent who's already gone this far will ever be open to questioning their choices. But others who come along might avoid making the same mistake. And still others, like coworkers, schoolpeople and neighbors, might eventually get some understanding of what's going on and withhold their approval or loosen their tongues and speak up! God, how bitter it is to hear, years after the fact from some well intended family friend "Well, I never did agree with that, but I just minded my own business. Sorry, kid!"
The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.
--Sigmund Freud
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 04:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 13:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I found this thread interesting http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ ... 2;t=001171 (http://www.strugglingteens.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=001171)QuoteI, too, am throwing in the towel.
I didn't see my daughter during the holidays. I left here at her treatment facility. I didn't see my slacker son for the holidays. My husband and I went to visit his brother and sister who live in Dallas. I had the best holiday I've had in some time. We stayed in a luxurious hotel, ate good food, it was relaxing. And the best part I didn't feel guilty at all.
I'm thinking my daughter may need a stint in the military. She has sabatoged yet again her attempt to go to college, by getting fired from her job, taking collect calls from the loser boyfriend, who is (was) in jail on a statutory rape charge. She isn't showing the maturity to leave the structured environment of rehab to the totally unstructered environment of college, even though it is a really small school where she was going. I just can't keep throwing good money after bad. I've spent over $30,000 and just can't bankrupt myself behind her. I love her dearly, but my resolution is to take care of me.
Take care of you. I have been reading over and over, the story of the prodigal son.
One day, our children may return to us. I keep that hope, but I know for my own sanity, I must move on with life.
These programs don't work, if you don't want to end up like these parents - beware. "
I haven't had a post make me tear up in a long time, but this one got me. My dad said to me almost word for word that last sentence. It left a hole in my heart that I don't think will ever heal. Friend of Alex's parents.....I hope you will seriously read over what everyone has said. I hope you read the links that have been posted. I REALLY hope you relay these things to Alex's parents. I would hate to think of him 20+ years later, crying over lost relationships, lost time, lost hope.
The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
--Bumper Sticker
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 05, 2006, 05:18:00 PM
Quote
Vicoden is a proscribed medication. I doubt she bought it off the streets. Trying to make her look bad so you look better maybe?
Please! You can buy vicodin off the internet!!!! I was having 7.5/750 hydrocodone Quantity #90 shipped to me 2 times a month. I was addicted for 3 years. It's the drug choice for many a housewife. You can't smell it on your breath, your husband is usually at work when it is shipped to you, and it's an easy drug to travel with (no questions at the airport).
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 05, 2006, 05:28:00 PM
Quote
Apologies then. :smile: Hard to keep track of the anons. Pick a username, it'll be easier to keep track of who's saying what.
I second that!
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 05:35:00 PM
They're control freaks, and when their kids grow up into individuals with minds of their own, the parents can't control who their grown child is, he doesn't look like the picture they saw on the side of the box when they ordered him from the catalog, so they just send him back.
Yeah, they're genuinely concerned for their child---they're concerned that he's not turning out like the picture they had in their head when they decided to have a kid. He's not like the picture in the catalog, let's throw money at somebody to fix him, and when that doesn't work, let's just throw him away and cut our losses.
Damned defective product, can't even get our money back. What a rip-off. Of course we don't feel guilty for pitching it in the trash. What a disappointing waste of time and money!
These people are un-fucking-believable.
Julie
Post by: exsafecounselor on January 05, 2006, 05:35:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 05:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 14:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A lot of these parents (not all) are throwing away their kids and paying the tuition as guilt money so they feel like they've tried one final time to make their kid into the compliant little "credit to their parents and community" that they envisioned when baby was in the cradle.
These people are un-fucking-believable.
Julie"
You nailed it! I do believe somewhere in this thread, the words "trying to give him one last chance at a decent life",or something very close to that, were used.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 05, 2006, 05:52:00 PM
Quote
God, how bitter it is to hear, years after the fact from some well intended family friend "Well, I never did agree with that, but I just minded my own business. Sorry, kid!"
You know how many times I had to hear that??? Atleast from 10 different people who were close to my parents, countless others that were mere aquantances. I wanted to strangle the 10 that I know could've gotten into my folks mind. Instead they just let me rot in there from the ages of 12-16 till I took matters into my own hands, and ran away by going out of an upper floor window on a vacuum cord. I can't tell you how burnt the palms of my hands got by not being able to grip it, and afterwards for a week I couldn't open my hands. Ouch!
Then for reasons I know (my relationship with the owner of the school), they didn't bother to look for me. They initially ran after me, but I'm talking after that. I was now out of their hair. That following year was a great time......well kind of........I did a lot of drinking, a lot of screwing, and experminted for the first time with drugs. I look back on that year, and I think how disgusting it all was, but I went from being totally controlled, to nobody controlling me whatsoever.
I have a feeling because Alex's parents have chosen to send him away, that since he will be turning 18 very soon anyway, that he could do the same as I did. There is something about not having a choice, and getting sent away to be abused (by people who " LOVE " you)that gets you extremely angry, confused, and causes you to do things that you have no clue why the hell you're doing them????
His parents need to have their parental license stripped from them. They should've just stuck with the goldfish.
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 06:23:00 PM
These parents (these in particular, maybe, certainly a good many in the industry) seem to be irrationally afraid of the world at large. My dad never did enjoy the Program. He thought Art Barker was a pompous ass, refered to him as "The Professional Alcoholic" and such. Certainly didn't enjoy taking direction and personal questions from some 16yo punk who was on staff at the time.
BUT (big but) he believed, as a lot of WWII era fathers believed, that one toke off a joint would set us all on an inexorable path to junkiedome and joining the Manson Family and hacking up our families.
Of course, that wasn't true then and it isn't true now. But he believed it enough and loved us enough to eat shit on a regular basis for 10 years. What changed his mind? I, the youngest, came of age, escaped the influence of the program and failed to fail. Not that my life was exemplary. I struggled, financially, socially... every way imaginable. But I still managed to feed and cloth my daughter, pay my bills and not turn into this evil junkie monster he'd been afraid of. So we got on fine after we sorted that out a year or two after the Program.
My mom, on the other hand, she LOVED the Program. She still believes, to this day that since I split the program and never have gone back, that I must be a junkie by now. I must be just very good at hiding it, you see. But the Program said it, she believes it, that settles it.
I certainly hope Alex's parents come around. The world is, as Julie says, no better or worse than it was in our day. These kids are just as highly evolved and well equipped to deal with it as they ever were. And these hucksters who promise the wonder cure for the non-existant problem are just that, hucksters and snake oil salesmen. Like most con men, they buy into their own bullshit more than anybody else does. But just cause they believe what they're selling doesn't make it true. Who ya gonna believe, anyway, the Program salesman or your own lyin eyes?
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
--Buddha
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 06:52:00 PM
Let's imagine you are back at home as a child. Your parents seem relatively nice, and everyone is well-behaived. But there is an underlying tension, and fear among the family members. Why? Because your dad decided to build a dog house in the backyard and throw you kids in there for at least 3 days straight with extremely limited food and water for not following his idea of what a family should be. You get locked up in that cage. You cry out for more food and water and a blanket and it only makes it worse, now your father refuses your medication and threatens to keep you in there longer. Well, you finally learn you have no options and sit in your dog house for 3 days straight and finally emerge dishoveled, scared, but strangely grateful for your father letting you out. You hug him for being nice and letting him out, and always follow the rules from then on, because in the back of your mind you know what is out in the backyard waiting if you don't. END QUOTE:
What is this supposed to describe? It sure as hell isn't scl, and you know it. No one ever refused you food, water, or medication. No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated. Again, you are citing things as comparison that are completely irrelevant and non-applicable.
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 07:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 14:52:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
You know how many times I had to hear that??? Atleast from 10 different people who were close to my parents, countless others that were mere aquantances. I wanted to strangle the 10 that I know could've gotten into my folks mind.
Yeah, that's one reason why I lost track of almost everyone I ever knew. It took me some years to get to a point where I didn't want to kick their teeth in. By then, well, years had passed and kids had grown and we'd all made new friends.
Wish I had THAT to do over again!
By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 07:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 15:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
What is this supposed to describe? It sure as hell isn't scl, and you know it. No one ever refused you food, water, or medication. No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated. Again, you are citing things as comparison that are completely irrelevant and non-applicable.
What could possibly be any kind of a justification to keep anyone, let alone a child locked up in this?????????
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
Impiety: Your irreverence toward my deity.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Troll Control on January 05, 2006, 08:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 15:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What is this supposed to describe? It sure as hell isn't scl, and you know it. No one ever refused you food, water, or medication. No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated. Again, you are citing things as comparison that are completely irrelevant and non-applicable."
You are a fucking liar. EXACTLY this scenario was played out over and over at your beloved "program."
SCL has been proven to be abusive and your bullshit denials aren't going to change that.
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 09:01:00 PM
Quote
No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated.
"
In the U.S., we have a law mandating that interventions occur in the Least Restrictive Environment. This means that if you do escalate and then deescalate five minutes later, you are entitled to be let out of a restraint and/or restrictive environment. WWASP facilities clearly violate this law on a daily basis by mandating a certain number of hours or days in captive, secluded environments long after the behavior has occured. Furthermore, the only reason to restrict someone is if they are a dangerous threat to themselves or someone else. Kids should not be secluded in a locked room because they disrespect staff, get high after not receiving treatment for their addictions, or whatever other rule they may break. This is illegal. A few people have said this abuse has bonded them or made them stronger in some twisted way, almost like a fraternity hazing. The big difference is that these kids are not choosing this environment and can't cry "uncle" when it gets too painful to bear.
If the children do make new, positive choices, it's basically useless because they aren't permitted to have an impact on their environment. Your comment about the hobbit is assinine.
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 09:36:00 PM
Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)
Post by: The Liger on January 05, 2006, 09:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 19:24:00, Antigen wrote:
"No, Helena. That was not the parent. That was someone else answering toQuote
I'm just wondering why they don't get the court's attention for forcing this kid to violate the law by being out of jurisdiction. They are legally responsible for this kid. If he were to bust a ball thru someone's window, the parents would be liable. Why aren't the parents liable for his absence to answer for the charges?
Sounds like the court knows, but the court is alright with it just so long as he's in "treatment" and not out giving friends lifts around town.This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
"
Post by: The Liger on January 05, 2006, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 05, 2006, 10:35:00 PM
Post by: Shlee on January 05, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 19:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Well, this is Ashley. I'm sick of hiding behind an anonymous mask all throughout this forum, and what the hell, my pictures are already all over it anyways. Antigen is right, quit hiding and/or pretending to be several people on one computer."
Sorry, I didn't log in...
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
Glad you decided to register. Now go get yourself a new avatar in your profile...you're much too cute for that newbie thing. :smile: :wave:
The most important bill in our whole code is that for the diffusion of
knowledge among the people. No other sure foundation can be devised, for the preservation of freedom and happiness.
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Shlee on January 05, 2006, 10:50:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 10:54:00 PM
But it's all pretty good now. Yeah, you do the best you can and hope for the best.
There's no "I" in team.
There's no "U" in team, either.
So... if you're not on the team and I'm not on the team, then who's on the fucking team?
yea, the team sux...down with the team
The Great Jack and King Rea
Post by: Antigen on January 05, 2006, 10:56:00 PM
The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.
BINGO!
Post by: Shlee on January 05, 2006, 11:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 19:56:00, Antigen wrote:
"Welcome, Shlee! Hope ya don't mind my snaggin yer photo up there. Anything I can do to help, leme know, k?The fact is the fact, the program is evil, and every attempt to make
chicken salad out of chicken shit has resulted in a Chicken shit
sandwich, No pickle on the side could ever change that.
BINGO!
"
Nope, not at all. It just proves a few more lies on their part. And of course, I'm open to any advice at all on the situation.
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 05, 2006, 11:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-04 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you guys are still really questioning the fact of Jimmy Urine in the photo here:
http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/p ... /index.php (http://www.mindlessselfindulgence.com/press/reviews/bigcheese/index.php)
There's plenty more where that came from...surf their site a little..."
I went to iTunes and bought Mindless Self Indulgence's album called You'll Rebel to Anything. Not bad. I got some good tunes from this thread. I tried to find the Combichrist remix on Ashley;s site, but iTunes doesn't seem to carry that particular track.
So what happened to the post that said Alex had been removed form SCL? Was that just a lie?
Post by: WWFSMD on January 05, 2006, 11:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 20:18:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
So what happened to the post that said Alex had been removed form SCL? Was that just a lie?"
Good question.
It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college. And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.
We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.
--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law
Post by: Shlee on January 05, 2006, 11:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 20:31:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 20:18:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
So what happened to the post that said Alex had been removed form SCL? Was that just a lie?"
Good question.It continues to amaze me to talk to law students -- college"
graduates all and smarter than the average bear -- who will
seriously tell me about how dangerous mj is and how it
destroys the lives of those who use it and who, in the
very next sentence, will tell me how they and their
friends -- now CPAs, engineers, med students -- used
pot regularly through high school and college. And
they don't see the contradiction between these statements.
We're not just talking ignorance here -- we are talking
deep down, serious, religious indoctrination.
--Buford C. Terrell, Professor of Law, South Texas College of Law
I wish we knew. But, for some reason Alex's family and family friends are keeping that information top secret.
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 01:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated.
"
In the U.S., we have a law mandating that interventions occur in the Least Restrictive Environment. This means that if you do escalate and then deescalate five minutes later, you are entitled to be let out of a restraint and/or restrictive environment. WWASP facilities clearly violate this law on a daily basis by mandating a certain number of hours or days in captive, secluded environments long after the behavior has occured. Furthermore, the only reason to restrict someone is if they are a dangerous threat to themselves or someone else. Kids should not be secluded in a locked room because they disrespect staff, get high after not receiving treatment for their addictions, or whatever other rule they may break. This is illegal. A few people have said this abuse has bonded them or made them stronger in some twisted way, almost like a fraternity hazing. The big difference is that these kids are not choosing this environment and can't cry "uncle" when it gets too painful to bear.
If the children do make new, positive choices, it's basically useless because they aren't permitted to have an impact on their environment. Your comment about the hobbit is assinine."
Nope, you're wrong. Or dishonest.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 06, 2006, 07:20:00 AM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 08:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 22:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-05 18:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated.
"
In the U.S., we have a law mandating that interventions occur in the Least Restrictive Environment. This means that if you do escalate and then deescalate five minutes later, you are entitled to be let out of a restraint and/or restrictive environment. WWASP facilities clearly violate this law on a daily basis by mandating a certain number of hours or days in captive, secluded environments long after the behavior has occured. Furthermore, the only reason to restrict someone is if they are a dangerous threat to themselves or someone else. Kids should not be secluded in a locked room because they disrespect staff, get high after not receiving treatment for their addictions, or whatever other rule they may break. This is illegal. A few people have said this abuse has bonded them or made them stronger in some twisted way, almost like a fraternity hazing. The big difference is that these kids are not choosing this environment and can't cry "uncle" when it gets too painful to bear.
If the children do make new, positive choices, it's basically useless because they aren't permitted to have an impact on their environment. Your comment about the hobbit is assinine."
Nope, you're wrong. Or dishonest. "
Can you explain the process and purpose of the Hobbitt from your point of view? What "thereaputic value" does it hold? What's an average time period that a kid would spend in there?
We are a one party country. Half of them call themselves Democrats and the other half call themselves Republicans. All the good ideas come from the Libertarians.
--Hugh Downs
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 09:24:00 AM
Quote
What is this supposed to describe? It sure as hell isn't scl, and you know it. No one ever refused you food, water, or medication. No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated. Again, you are citing things as comparison that are completely irrelevant and non-applicable.
What is your response to this....?
Quote
On 2006-01-05 18:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:
You are right about that not being SCL, which I thought I made clear in my post. My point in the hypothetical comparison was to engage in a mental exercise. If a parent were to treat their child the way WWASP staff do, they would be imprisoned. Yet, it occurs continuously at WWASP and similar programs. What gives them the right to hold a child in isolation, submission and humiliation with absolutely no oversight?
There are strict rules and guidelines in our country's correctional system when an inmate is being placed in isolation. It is a relatively rare, and heavily documented event, and the inmate has rights and access to an advocate. Why not at SCL? SCL is at the same level as the recently reported CIA secret prisons. Out of sight, out of mind.
The hobbit was almost always occupied while I was there. Kids were placed in the hobbit for things as inconsequencial as 'choosing out' of a seminar. (if you don't know what that means, click on the piano finders link below and read about seminars) They throw kids in the beginning of Discovery when they get kicked out, and let them sit 'till the end- three days. Do you think not participating in a psycho cry fest- as many newspapers have referred to it- is reason to be kept in isolation with limited meals in conditions so utterly deplorable? I sure don't.
Do they limit your food for punishment? Yes.
For breakfast we received one peeled banana, and a plain bagel served with a bathroom toiletry cup full of water. For dinner - yes we only got two meals - was a tortilla filled with black beans, and lettuce on the side. No utensils. That's it.
Why would they limit food like this... for treatment purposes? No, I say to punish. So yes, I call this food deprivation. For what other purpose would it serve to limit portions like this and give such plain food with very little/no nutritional value? Prisoners eat better than the kids in the hobbit. Murderers on death row have more rights than the kids in the hobbit.
So yes, you are correct, they don't refuse you food completely, instead they give you the absolute bottom of the barrel definition of what a meal actually is. Just enough to keep from getting arrested.
Were we allowed to shower? No.
We were allowed a thin sleeping bag from the time 9pm-5am. We slept on hardwood in the bag with no pillow. It was cold and extremely uncomfortable.
The staff would sleep outside the doors of the individual cells in the staff part of the hobbit. They would place two or three mattresses on top of each other, and block both doors to the cells, and sleep on that. The staff would obviously feel if either cell door was opening, as they opened outwards. They would bring a ton of blankets and pillows, quite a comfortable bed they had.
We were only allowed to wear one layer of clothes. They say to protect from anyone trying to run, but with a staff posted outside your closed door, this was close to impossible not to mention we had no shoes. It's obvious this was also for punishment (it gets frigidly cold).
The bathroom was a port-a-potty located about 50 yards down in the direction of the 'hungry horse', the cafeteria, a common place for others to be. They had full view of the portapotty. So when you had to go to the bathroom, you had to ask the staff, because they have to escort you down. The staff were always in a bad mood, their job absolutely sucked! They were in the hobbit all day too, and commonly they would pull double shifts because they received a lot of extra pay up at the hobbit. One staff would tell me how much he'd make if he spent two days straight working the hobbit, and it was several hundred dollars. It's pretty stressful after that long, and who do you think they take that out on?
Back to the portapotty though. So, once you managed to convince the staff to let you go to the bathroom, they'd let you out of your room, or cell or whatever you want to call it, to put on your shoelace-less shoes out in the staff area of the hobbit. Then they would parade you down to the portapotty, and of course there would be families walking by, perfect timing for humiliation. Staff sure would get a laugh at the steam coming from the portapotty in the cold winter months. I heard from another student one kid locked himself and wouldn't let himself out. They pushed it over and one can only imagine that mess. Overall, the best situation was to hold it as long as possible. It was freezing, humiliating and gross to go to the bathroom. Again, all part of the punishment.
It's disgusting. Three days straight in sweats a t-shirt and socks, and you can't change any of those items for the entire time. We spent the entire day sitting on the dirty linoleum flooring, which was stained with piss and reeked like ... you get the picture.
There were kids who spent weeks, and months up there. Some kids just can't handle being institutionalized and went crazy. Or as you might put it, 'escalating', except these kids never stopped until they lost it. Why they weren't sent to a psych hospital I will never know. These were the kids who would deficate in the hobbit and smear it on the wall. These were the kids who would carve up their arm like a bloody halloween movie and spread the words 'FREEDOM' across the wall with their own blood.
How is this for reality. I saw these things with my own eyes. I hope this is 'relative and applicable' enough for you to take me seriously.
What is the purpose of the hobbit? It is to punish, humilate, degrade and break the spirit of those who don't act according to the programs ideology. In any other context, this is deplorable. We condemn other nations who use these tactics as terrorist states, yet we allow it right here at home. Why it is allowed in a teen help context, I honestly don't get it, and never will.
You have been censored, very heavily. If you want to know what really goes on, go to myspace.com and search for WWASP and ask the hundreds (thousands now?) of WWASP alumnists there. We aren't the bratty, whining teenagers some make us out to be. A lot of us are in our early/mid twenties now and have had plenty of time to review the events I discuss here- and I am being completely honest here- I have absolutely no reason to make this stuff up. God help me if I sat around lying on message boards all day, what would be the point? I have a passion for this because I felt mistreated, and like to express my views now that I am free to do so.
So, in conclusion, I apologize if my comparison to a hypothetical, made-up situation bothered you. I will state my purpose more plainly in the future, thank you for pointing that out.
Oh yeah, and as far as holding back medication, they never did so in the hobbit with me. They did this when I took my exit plan, telling me my dad owned it, and they had no obligation to give it to me. The medications were already payed for, so the obvious reason they were doing this was blackmail. I was on a couple meds (thyroid and another) that you cannot just stop taking immediately without serious health complications. With their actions, they (the program and my family) told me if I left (a program which I consider abusive), I was basically left for dead. It really was one of my worst days emotionally, I have never felt so alone in the world and completely beaten.
Lucky for me there was one staff there with a soul who noticed me spiraling down into an abyss I surely would have never recovered from (I was literally about to walk down the road, not caring if I died, I just needed out) and asked me if I wanted to be taken to a hospital (against the wishes of other staff there). My family rep was all over me when I jumped in his truck, screaming "you're coming back, we'll see you soon", but I knew I wasn't. Lucky for me I was right. I pleaded with the ER doctor to help me and he referred me to their adjascent psych hospital and finally it was over. What a hellish experience it was getting out of that place. (If you're wondering what happened after that, I spent 4 weeks at the psych hospital because I was 18 they couldnt force me back, woohoo! It took that long just to get my real psychiatrist- god what a difference a little professionalism makes- to negotiate with my dad to get back home. He set a ridiculous home contract based on what the program told him. I broke one of his rules, I can't remember which one, I think I smoked a ciggarette, being 18 and all. I was kicked out within a week of getting home. So, in essence, I 'took my exit plan' once again. I went to live with friends and built my life from there and now live on my own.)
I feel for anyone having to endure being at SCL, and having to deal with taking their exit plan and the after effects. That is why I am posting to this thread.
I am another alumnist who descended into behaviors and activities many, many times worse than before I went. I think the reasons are obvious.
Please, instead of nit-picking posts, might we discuss the larger issue? The elephant in the room so to speak. Are these programs helpful or not. I say not. I base this on my own personal experience at SCL and five years of reflection. In addition to being at four other programs, of which I have no complaints. I feel I have a right to say what I want to say, because I was forced to live it and experience it. All I want to do here is share it with those who want to listen.What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-05 18:23 ]"
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 06, 2006, 01:22:00 PM
What does this person have to gain by posting things that are untrue? N-O-T-H-I-N-G. Just like why would I? I am a 32 year old woman who just got married, moved into a beautiful house in the country, and am happy for the most part!!! I only discovered fornits back in October 2005, and was really surprised that these places were still around, and multiplied in numbers (WWASPS).
Before I went to Cross Creek Manor, I had spent 3 years at Heritage School in Provo, Utah. I didn't much like that place, I would've rather been at home, but they were diffently more of a RTC. They had levels you had to get to, therapy twice a week, horses to ride if you got to a certain leval, pool to swim in, baseball field, volleyball pit, all kinds of things you could do. We did have cameras in our room, we did have to sleep with a blue light at night, we had alarms, we had a place called Crisis which is a much nicer version of the Hobbit. We had co-ed school, but we were watched very closely! You couldn't get away with anything!
Then you have these WWASP schools. They tried to model themselves after schools like Heritage but they didn't want to sink money into it like the owners of Heritage did, they didn't want to play by the rules. They wanted to rake in as much cash for themselves, they wanted low overhead. They have started all these schools, and done a half ass job on all of them. None of them are quality schools.
I'm not sure how they became so twisted? People say it's a cult? I don't know? I personally think that they were so greedy that instead of hiring the manpower, and professionals that they needed to, they hired people who had no experience, who didn't demand much in the way of pay, and tried to jimmy it into working. Soon, these hill billie house parents were like what the fuck? These brats aren't listening to us Bob! So, Bob, Brent, Ken, and whoever the hell else came up with a really cheap way of fixing the problem. Scare, humiliate, and degrade these kids. Beat them mentally into submission, and see if that works? When it turned out to be a really good SHORT TERM solution they based a program around that. It's really just basic shit. Stuff you learn from a dog trainer, and a bad one at that. It's also easy to teach it to the dumb dumbs that work for them too. It's all about the dollar. But hey, it's not all their faults.........it's you parents out there who don't do enough investigating. And in the end, your kids will hate you for it. I hated mine, my Mom has been dead for a few years, my Dad and I are close, but I still look at him and think..........why the hell did you do that to me???? Why do I even give you the time of day? It's all about forgiveness, he asked me for mine, he told me how sorry he was 50 times over, so I figured not being in a part of eachothers lives for 15 years was enough punishment.
It's not about me, it's about getting others out there to be aware of what is going on. If someone made a shirt, I would buy it. I would proudly wear it. Let me know when you print them, as long as they are the baby tees I'll sport it :smile:.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 01:40:00 PM
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg2-desperate.shtml)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenb ... oot33.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/teenboot/teenboot33.html)
http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/ (http://springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/)
If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 06, 2006, 02:01:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 02:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 11:01:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Okay, I give up.....what does WWFSMD mean?"
What Would Flying Spaghetti Monster Do? :grin:
http://www.venganza.org/ (http://www.venganza.org/)
What does that have to do with Pirates?? Glad you asked. :wink:
You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
?
"Now, I'm a walking dead man," ... "And what bothers me is that I'm dead because I tried to help the kids. And it's all the fault of all those people over there at the DEA." [Dead Man Talking]
--Ben Guillory
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 02:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 18:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:
There are strict rules and guidelines in our country's correctional system when an inmate is being placed in isolation. It is a relatively rare, and heavily documented event, and the inmate has rights and access to an advocate. Why not at SCL? SCL is at the same level as the recently reported CIA secret prisons. Out of sight, out of mind.
Dude, I hope you have that post (most of it) saved somewhere relatively permanent and uncluttered. It's as good and detailed a description as I think I've seen.
All our liberties are due to men who, when their conscience has compelled them, have broken the laws of the land.
--William Kingdon Clifford
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: BuzzKill on January 06, 2006, 02:32:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 02:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 11:32:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"GFEtE"
:question: :question: :question:
Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: BuzzKill on January 06, 2006, 03:11:00 PM
In responce to the pirate post (you snuck in ahead of me there)Grinning From Ear to Ear.
:em:
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-01-06 12:11 ]
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 06, 2006, 04:24:00 PM
Quote
PS: I am a guy. :em:
Whoops, sorry about that!!!
Well, I really hope that if a fire broke out that the staff members would make an effort to remove all those piled up mattresses in front of the hobbit door. See........that's the shit I am talking about! I'm not in to the whole isolation thing, but if you are going to do it atleast make it safe. So spend a couple thousand dollars on a alarm you cheap assholes if you want to know whether or not a child is trying to leave the hobbit.
Cheap fuckers! That guy has zero class (R.L.) he probably still wears that god awful Brut cologne. Once in a while, I come across that smell and it takes me back to CCM, it takes me back to those screwed up memories, the ones I still try to figure out, but can't.
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
"To the person who wrote this...
Quote
What is this supposed to describe? It sure as hell isn't scl, and you know it. No one ever refused you food, water, or medication. No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated. Again, you are citing things as comparison that are completely irrelevant and non-applicable.
What is your response to this....?
Quote
On 2006-01-05 18:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:
You are right about that not being SCL, which I thought I made clear in my post. My point in the hypothetical comparison was to engage in a mental exercise. If a parent were to treat their child the way WWASP staff do, they would be imprisoned. Yet, it occurs continuously at WWASP and similar programs. What gives them the right to hold a child in isolation, submission and humiliation with absolutely no oversight?
There are strict rules and guidelines in our country's correctional system when an inmate is being placed in isolation. It is a relatively rare, and heavily documented event, and the inmate has rights and access to an advocate. Why not at SCL? SCL is at the same level as the recently reported CIA secret prisons. Out of sight, out of mind.
The hobbit was almost always occupied while I was there. Kids were placed in the hobbit for things as inconsequencial as 'choosing out' of a seminar. (if you don't know what that means, click on the piano finders link below and read about seminars) They throw kids in the beginning of Discovery when they get kicked out, and let them sit 'till the end- three days. Do you think not participating in a psycho cry fest- as many newspapers have referred to it- is reason to be kept in isolation with limited meals in conditions so utterly deplorable? I sure don't.
Do they limit your food for punishment? Yes.
For breakfast we received one peeled banana, and a plain bagel served with a bathroom toiletry cup full of water. For dinner - yes we only got two meals - was a tortilla filled with black beans, and lettuce on the side. No utensils. That's it.
Why would they limit food like this... for treatment purposes? No, I say to punish. So yes, I call this food deprivation. For what other purpose would it serve to limit portions like this and give such plain food with very little/no nutritional value? Prisoners eat better than the kids in the hobbit. Murderers on death row have more rights than the kids in the hobbit.
So yes, you are correct, they don't refuse you food completely, instead they give you the absolute bottom of the barrel definition of what a meal actually is. Just enough to keep from getting arrested.
Were we allowed to shower? No.
We were allowed a thin sleeping bag from the time 9pm-5am. We slept on hardwood in the bag with no pillow. It was cold and extremely uncomfortable.
The staff would sleep outside the doors of the individual cells in the staff part of the hobbit. They would place two or three mattresses on top of each other, and block both doors to the cells, and sleep on that. The staff would obviously feel if either cell door was opening, as they opened outwards. They would bring a ton of blankets and pillows, quite a comfortable bed they had.
We were only allowed to wear one layer of clothes. They say to protect from anyone trying to run, but with a staff posted outside your closed door, this was close to impossible not to mention we had no shoes. It's obvious this was also for punishment (it gets frigidly cold).
The bathroom was a port-a-potty located about 50 yards down in the direction of the 'hungry horse', the cafeteria, a common place for others to be. They had full view of the portapotty. So when you had to go to the bathroom, you had to ask the staff, because they have to escort you down. The staff were always in a bad mood, their job absolutely sucked! They were in the hobbit all day too, and commonly they would pull double shifts because they received a lot of extra pay up at the hobbit. One staff would tell me how much he'd make if he spent two days straight working the hobbit, and it was several hundred dollars. It's pretty stressful after that long, and who do you think they take that out on?
Back to the portapotty though. So, once you managed to convince the staff to let you go to the bathroom, they'd let you out of your room, or cell or whatever you want to call it, to put on your shoelace-less shoes out in the staff area of the hobbit. Then they would parade you down to the portapotty, and of course there would be families walking by, perfect timing for humiliation. Staff sure would get a laugh at the steam coming from the portapotty in the cold winter months. I heard from another student one kid locked himself and wouldn't let himself out. They pushed it over and one can only imagine that mess. Overall, the best situation was to hold it as long as possible. It was freezing, humiliating and gross to go to the bathroom. Again, all part of the punishment.
It's disgusting. Three days straight in sweats a t-shirt and socks, and you can't change any of those items for the entire time. We spent the entire day sitting on the dirty linoleum flooring, which was stained with piss and reeked like ... you get the picture.
There were kids who spent weeks, and months up there. Some kids just can't handle being institutionalized and went crazy. Or as you might put it, 'escalating', except these kids never stopped until they lost it. Why they weren't sent to a psych hospital I will never know. These were the kids who would deficate in the hobbit and smear it on the wall. These were the kids who would carve up their arm like a bloody halloween movie and spread the words 'FREEDOM' across the wall with their own blood.
How is this for reality. I saw these things with my own eyes. I hope this is 'relative and applicable' enough for you to take me seriously.
What is the purpose of the hobbit? It is to punish, humilate, degrade and break the spirit of those who don't act according to the programs ideology. In any other context, this is deplorable. We condemn other nations who use these tactics as terrorist states, yet we allow it right here at home. Why it is allowed in a teen help context, I honestly don't get it, and never will.
You have been censored, very heavily. If you want to know what really goes on, go to myspace.com and search for WWASP and ask the hundreds (thousands now?) of WWASP alumnists there. We aren't the bratty, whining teenagers some make us out to be. A lot of us are in our early/mid twenties now and have had plenty of time to review the events I discuss here- and I am being completely honest here- I have absolutely no reason to make this stuff up. God help me if I sat around lying on message boards all day, what would be the point? I have a passion for this because I felt mistreated, and like to express my views now that I am free to do so.
So, in conclusion, I apologize if my comparison to a hypothetical, made-up situation bothered you. I will state my purpose more plainly in the future, thank you for pointing that out.
Oh yeah, and as far as holding back medication, they never did so in the hobbit with me. They did this when I took my exit plan, telling me my dad owned it, and they had no obligation to give it to me. The medications were already payed for, so the obvious reason they were doing this was blackmail. I was on a couple meds (thyroid and another) that you cannot just stop taking immediately without serious health complications. With their actions, they (the program and my family) told me if I left (a program which I consider abusive), I was basically left for dead. It really was one of my worst days emotionally, I have never felt so alone in the world and completely beaten.
Lucky for me there was one staff there with a soul who noticed me spiraling down into an abyss I surely would have never recovered from (I was literally about to walk down the road, not caring if I died, I just needed out) and asked me if I wanted to be taken to a hospital (against the wishes of other staff there). My family rep was all over me when I jumped in his truck, screaming "you're coming back, we'll see you soon", but I knew I wasn't. Lucky for me I was right. I pleaded with the ER doctor to help me and he referred me to their adjascent psych hospital and finally it was over. What a hellish experience it was getting out of that place. (If you're wondering what happened after that, I spent 4 weeks at the psych hospital because I was 18 they couldnt force me back, woohoo! It took that long just to get my real psychiatrist- god what a difference a little professionalism makes- to negotiate with my dad to get back home. He set a ridiculous home contract based on what the program told him. I broke one of his rules, I can't remember which one, I think I smoked a ciggarette, being 18 and all. I was kicked out within a week of getting home. So, in essence, I 'took my exit plan' once again. I went to live with friends and built my life from there and now live on my own.)
I feel for anyone having to endure being at SCL, and having to deal with taking their exit plan and the after effects. That is why I am posting to this thread.
I am another alumnist who descended into behaviors and activities many, many times worse than before I went. I think the reasons are obvious.
Please, instead of nit-picking posts, might we discuss the larger issue? The elephant in the room so to speak. Are these programs helpful or not. I say not. I base this on my own personal experience at SCL and five years of reflection. In addition to being at four other programs, of which I have no complaints. I feel I have a right to say what I want to say, because I was forced to live it and experience it. All I want to do here is share it with those who want to listen.What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-05 18:23 ]"
they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long.
--Thomas Sowell
:wstupid:
Post by: 69 on January 06, 2006, 05:17:00 PM
Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 05:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 14:17:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Thank you for proving you have no response. :smile:
Post by: 69 on January 06, 2006, 05:27:00 PM
Don't hate the media. Become the media
--Jello Biafra
_________________
http://http://www.springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com | http://http://www.isaccorp.org | http://http://www.teenliberty.org |
http://http://www.tbfight.com | http://http://www.antiwwasp.com | http://http://www.pianofinders.com/es/breakingthesecrecy.htm |[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-06 14:28 ]
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 07:06:00 PM
Darlin', if I had an unattached daughter your age, I'd be invitin ya ta dinner.
May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 07:56:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:Huh? WTF?
"I have to apologize. Some of these postings have come from our home computer. Our kids and their friends were screwing around and since I have been reading this site from the beginning they thought they would join in. We have known the Azzopardi family for about 25 years and the kids thought they could get their 2 cents in. I apologize again. Maybe I'll get brave enough to get a screen name like Caught In The Middle and not just read."
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 08:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-05 15:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
No one ever held you in the "hobbit" unless you were continually escalated.
What is escalated? How does a kid get escalated?
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 08:26:00 PM
What was your involvement in WWASP prior to this past December?
As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money. What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 08:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have to apologize. Some of these postings have come from our home computer. Our kids and their friends were screwing around and since I have been reading this site from the beginning they thought they would join in. We have known the Azzopardi family for about 25 years and the kids thought they could get their 2 cents in. I apologize again. Maybe I'll get brave enough to get a screen name like Caught In The Middle and not just read."
You gotta be kidding me!! Sure, when the thread gets down to asking basic, straight up questions all of a sudden its 'oh, it was the kids'?? Come on. Answer the questions!!
Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
Maybe I'll get brave enough to get a screen name like Caught In The Middle and not just read."
Then you have been reading? What do you think? Ya know, there's no added risk in getting a screen name. The only information anybody will know that they don't know now is which posts belong to you. You don't have to give valid email or any other identifying info. And, as you note, it'll seriously reduce the chance of someone impersonating you. I'll even make you a deal. You tell me which of those other posts you actually wrote and I'll move them to your username.
If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:26:00, Antigen wrote:Mever even knew they existed. These stories here are awful.
"Wow! With friends like those, who needs berzerkers?
What was your involvement in WWASP prior to this past December?As your attorney, it is my duty to inform you that it is not important that you understand what I'm doing or why you're paying me so much money. What's important is that you continue to do so.
--Hunter S. Thompson's Samoan Attorney
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:Go get some sex lady.
"This is why I have never posted. I hate confrontation. These were my children and kids that he grew up with. They were repeating what they had heard. I was just trying to make it right. They had no business posting anything. "
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Antigen wrote:I really have never posted before. But I have been reading daily. Like I said I hate confrontation and that seems to go on here a lot.
"Quote
On 2006-01-06 16:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
Maybe I'll get brave enough to get a screen name like Caught In The Middle and not just read."
Then you have been reading? What do you think? Ya know, there's no added risk in getting a screen name. The only information anybody will know that they don't know now is which posts belong to you. You don't have to give valid email or any other identifying info. And, as you note, it'll seriously reduce the chance of someone impersonating you. I'll even make you a deal. You tell me which of those other posts you actually wrote and I'll move them to your username.If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:This kind of crap is why I never posted!!
"QuoteGo get some sex lady."
On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is why I have never posted. I hate confrontation. These were my children and kids that he grew up with. They were repeating what they had heard. I was just trying to make it right. They had no business posting anything. "
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:50:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Mever even knew they existed. These stories here are awful."
Wouldn't you agree that his parents should be aware of all of this? I'm not talking about just the things that former students are saying, although I believe them. I know it'll be easy for them to dismiss the former students as 'disgruntled' just as we were considered that years ago. Come to find out, the places we were in were shut down just about everywhere they tried to go. Millions of dollars in judgements have been awarded to victims and all of it proved what we had been trying for years to tell people.
Don't you think they should have the whole picture? Its' not just the students saying something is very, very wrong. Look around at the links that have been posted. Its some damn scary shit. If you really care about this family, make sure they see all this.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 08:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
This kind of crap is why I never posted!!"
Then just skip it. There's some pretty decent people here asking some pretty fair questions. Stick to that. It's easy to point to that stuff and justify not posting. Skip it.
I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 08:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:52:00, WWFSMD wrote:I monitor this site so much my husband is having strokes. I relay all this to Jacki as she cant bear to read here
"Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Mever even knew they existed. These stories here are awful."
Wouldn't you agree that his parents should be aware of all of this? I'm not talking about just the things that former students are saying, although I believe them. I know it'll be easy for them to dismiss the former students as 'disgruntled' just as we were considered that years ago. Come to find out, the places we were in were shut down just about everywhere they tried to go. Millions of dollars in judgements have been awarded to victims and all of it proved what we had been trying for years to tell people.
Don't you think they should have the whole picture? Its' not just the students saying something is very, very wrong. Look around at the links that have been posted. Its some damn scary shit. If you really care about this family, make sure they see all this.Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-- Albert Einstein
"
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 09:01:00 PM
Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 09:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Never even knew they existed. These stories here are awful."
Then where do you get a room full of kids who so eagerly and gleefully trash this kid of yours? And why do you let the little shits in your house? I tell ya, there's no quicker way to get a personal and entheusiastic invitation to the door than to talk smack like that on any of my family under my roof.
It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 09:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is why I have never posted. I hate confrontation. These were my children and kids that he grew up with. They were repeating what they had heard. I was just trying to make it right. They had no business posting anything. "
They were saying some horrible things, not only about him, but all his friends and their families. Gangs do that too. Never mind that they said it, is this what they all think? Well, why do you let them treat him that way?
And is it so that the kid was trying to seek treatment and you sent him off anyway? WTF? If I were you, I'd go out there right now and see for myself. Insist on speaking with your son privately, unmonitored. You know your son. Don't kick hard in the shins any stranger who suggest that you need their help figuring out if he's telling the truth or not.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteThis kind of crap is why I never posted!!"
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteGo get some sex lady."
On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is why I have never posted. I hate confrontation. These were my children and kids that he grew up with. They were repeating what they had heard. I was just trying to make it right. They had no business posting anything. "
"I hate confrontation"
That is why you are being trolled, you put a target on your back. Everyone here goes through it, try to ignore it, because beyond that there is a lot of good information here.
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 09:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
I really have never posted before. But I have been reading daily. Like I said I hate confrontation and that seems to go on here a lot.
Well, it goes on a whole lot in these programs, too. Only w/ full body contact and no escape. Sometimes, for whatever reasons, ppl actually go out of their way to be offensive just so that ppl like you won't talk to anybody else who posts here. Don't fall for it, that's all.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:33:00 PM
It's strange, even many ed cons won't send kids to SCL, WWASPS has such a bad wrap...so sad :sad:
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 09:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
I relay all this to Jacki as she cant bear to read here"
If she can't bear to hear about it, think what it must be like for Alex to have to live it. What does she say when you tell her about this?
A multitude of laws in a country is like a great number of physicians, a sign of weakness and malady.
--Voltaire, philosopher (1694-1778)
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 18:08:00, Antigen wrote:Alex is not my child.
"Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
Never even knew they existed. These stories here are awful."
Then where do you get a room full of kids who so eagerly and gleefully trash this kid of yours? And why do you let the little shits in your house? I tell ya, there's no quicker way to get a personal and entheusiastic invitation to the door than to talk smack like that on any of my family under my roof.It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
"
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 03:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some might consider looniness worshiping the devil. Or having your class picture taken at a cemetery. or the Goth clothes, only a crazy person would think they look good with that fat belly hanging out. "
Some might consider looniness believing in the devil.
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:46:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 11:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Goth doesn't bother me. she dose need to cover herself up a little she doesn't have the body for it. When she was at a friends house she turned a picture of Jesus upside down and put a knife on it. She is strange hopefully she will grow out of it. I feel her parents should try to guide her more. But they are a little strange also. I do know this girl. We go to the same school. I hope for Alex's sack she is with someone else when he gets out. Did you see the Vampirefreaks.com web site When_You_Scream the pictures of the wise men one has his head cut off they all have blood dripping down them. Sorry I find that WRONG. I am aloud my opinion just they same as you and her."
Hoenstly, next we're going to be returning to the days of Salem Witch trials. Has our collective IQ (older generations) been sucked dry by American Religios/political free-fear-dom.
I recall I used to wear Metallica shirts and listen to heavy metal, my mom swore I worshipped the devil..I didn't beleive in the devil,.. b/c, well, thought that nonsense illogical and stupid but I fed into b/c it keep the older, more foolish 'frightened' folks at bay...Shlee sounds very much like me- just trying to live as a teen, who does fit the cookie cutter socially imposed mold many folks from mid-america push as 'the only way' to be.
What on earth happened to embracing difference? Since when is homogenity a good thing? So...boring and intolerant.
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:Thank you. This information on this site has been relayed to his parents by me.
"Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteThis kind of crap is why I never posted!!"
On 2006-01-06 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteGo get some sex lady."
On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is why I have never posted. I hate confrontation. These were my children and kids that he grew up with. They were repeating what they had heard. I was just trying to make it right. They had no business posting anything. "
"I hate confrontation"
That is why you are being trolled, you put a target on your back. Everyone here goes through it, try to ignore it, because beyond that there is a lot of good information here."
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 09:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 18:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Thank you. This information on this site has been relayed to his parents by me. "
What do you think about what you've read? How does Alex's mom feel about all of it?
Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 09:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-03 16:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm not saying it was right to send Alex away to this place, but pretty much everyone at school understands why his parents did it. "
If Alex needs help it's not going to happen through SCL, they need to focus on community care. RTC's don't work, abusive or not.
http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/ ... s/rtcs.htm (http://www.bazelon.org/issues/children/factsheets/rtcs.htm)
http://bazelon.org/newsroom/2005/10-18-05briefing.htm (http://bazelon.org/newsroom/2005/10-18-05briefing.htm)
Post by: Anonymous on January 06, 2006, 11:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 18:50:00, WWFSMD wrote:What everyone that went to one of those schools went through should not happen to anyone. I have three children and would not send them there. But I also havent had the need to so I'm the last one to say anything. I know what his parents went through. They were very scared for him and emotions were running high. The whole family was trashed. Life was pretty unbearable in that house. They wanted him contained so he couldnt hurt himself anymore. I know now that these schools prey on that. He is safe where he is but very pissed off. Justifiably so. I cant speak for them as that would be wrong on my part. They do know that they will have a rough time when he comes home. The anger alone will probably be between them forever.
"Quote
On 2006-01-06 18:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Thank you. This information on this site has been relayed to his parents by me. "
What do you think about what you've read? How does Alex's mom feel about all of it?Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful."
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
Post by: WWFSMD on January 06, 2006, 11:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 20:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
He is safe where he is but very pissed off.
Don't be so sure about that. WWASPS and specifically Spring Creek is one of the worst offenders. He is anything but safe.
Quote
The anger alone will probably be between them forever."
Not just anger but flat out rage - betrayal, no sense of trust - not just in his parents, but anyone - fear, confusion, hopelessness if his parents stick to that damn exit plan. They're, and more importantly he is, in for a whole host of shit that they can't even fathom right now.
I hope you printed out that picture of the Hobbitt and showed it to her. That right there would be enough to send any parent beatin' feet to get that kid. Think about it, if he's that pissed of, justifiably so, and expresses that anger he's going to end up in that little box. It's pretty cold in Montana this time of year, don't you think? You've read Exit Plan's story (hopefully). You've read Desperate Measure (hopefully). Do whatever you can to talk some sense into those parents and get that kid out of there!!
If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Antigen on January 06, 2006, 11:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 20:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
He is safe where he is but very pissed off.
Where in the world do you get that idea???
Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
Post by: 69 on January 06, 2006, 11:25:00 PM
Quote
He is safe where he is but very pissed off.
Nope. Only difference is the parents are now ignorant, that's what they pay for it seems. They can hope he's safe, imagine he's safe -- but they don't know, nobody does.
The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.
--William Osler
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 07, 2006, 10:31:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 07, 2006, 11:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-06 18:12:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-06 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is why I have never posted. I hate confrontation. These were my children and kids that he grew up with. They were repeating what they had heard. I was just trying to make it right. They had no business posting anything. "
They were saying some horrible things, not only about him, but all his friends and their families. Gangs do that too. Never mind that they said it, is this what they all think? Well, why do you let them treat him that way?
And is it so that the kid was trying to seek treatment and you sent him off anyway? WTF? If I were you, I'd go out there right now and see for myself. Insist on speaking with your son privately, unmonitored. You know your son. Don't kick hard in the shins any stranger who suggest that you need their help figuring out if he's telling the truth or not.The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
-- Bertrand Russell
"
for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 07, 2006, 11:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-07 08:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him."
I think it was an honest mistake. Its rather difficult to tell the difference between anonymous posters. Glad to see some of you have registered a screen name. It makes the discussion much easier to follow.
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 07, 2006, 12:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-07 08:57:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-07 08:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him."
I think it was an honest mistake. Its rather difficult to tell the difference between anonymous posters. Glad to see some of you have registered a screen name. It makes the discussion much easier to follow.A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
"
Sorry to confuse you. But I am not the one with the teenagers that have been typing. I am another friend that you suggested I get a screen name yesterday. as you can see I have.
Ashley's mom, next time one of your daughters friends come to you maybe you should set up a meeting with your husband yourself the kid and there parents and try to talk. That may work out better when you talked with him at your home then he went home his parents talked to him I don't believe he had it all together then he would talk to Ashley then start yelling at his parents. It would make any parent wonder what people are putting in his head. Plus I would leave out the part that all they need is love. Most parents would lose all respect for you at that moment and never hear another word you said. HE HAS A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO LOVE'S HIM IN HIS FAMILY INCLUDING HIS PARENTS. Not to mention him being under the influence on a daily basis.
I don't believe he even new how to handle every thing being thrown at him. Even though he is almost 18 he is very immature. Part of me understands what you were trying to do. I believe if you handled it the way you did with me I may have reacted in the same way. I am not trying to trash you I am giving you my opinion. I really don't know you so I can't say that you are a bad person. I understand there was a lot of emotions involved in everyone. I also don't believe you would have liked someone trying to tell your daughter what to do seeing that it is your husbands and your decision on how to raise her. I bet you would have wanted to slap someone who told you all she needed was LOVE. Again just a opinion from someone on the outside looking in.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 07, 2006, 12:58:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 07, 2006, 01:09:00 PM
As has been said here before a lot of us are parents who honestly do understand the fear and frustration of dealing with a teenager who is not making the choices we'd like them to and who scare the living shit out of us. What we're trying to say is that 1) most kid actually do grow out of their impulsive or destructive behavior and more importantly 2) what Alex's parents have decided to do is most probably going to cause far[/b] more damage than if they just did nothing.
Ashley's mom - It's also been said here that those of us who were in these places could only wish that we had a sane adult willing to take a stand against seemingly unsurmountable odds. I also had quite a few adult friends of my parents that later said they had serious doubts about my safety and well-being but were either too intimidated to speak up or just felt that it wasn't their business. Its really frustrating to hear that after sitting in one of those places being subjected to the daily abuses that we were. I just wanted to throttle them and ask how they could say nothing when it was fairly obvious that something was seriously wrong.
The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:
Post by: Antigen on January 07, 2006, 01:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-07 08:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
for some reason you always miss the fact that this person isnt there parent. they can not go get him."
Yeah, I did. And, to some degree, I plain out didn't believe you. I think I've got it straight now. Please forgive my rage. And please do pass along what you read here to Jackie. I almost can't believe the sop that our words, printed on a monitor are too painful for her to read! Reading about it is painful? Please! Put the shoe on the other foot! Grrrrr!
Sorry. Yeah, I'm angry. It's very difficult not to be.
But, having taken a little time and calmed down, I'm really, sincerely sorry for taking it out on you. You're doing a very decent thing here, more than most of our family friends were ever willing to do for us back then. And I thank you for it.
Hopefully, we can get past misunderstandings and lost tempers and try and help this kid.
Society in every state is a blessing, but Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
--Thomas Paine
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 07, 2006, 01:39:00 PM
In the end it is there decision. There will be a lot of people on both sides that will be here for Alex. Let pray he finds his way and all is good in the end. I will listen and read and do my best to give his parents the info. I will also be there for them.
Post by: Antigen on January 07, 2006, 02:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-07 10:39:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Giving reliable info is great. Putting down and pointing fingers isn't helping.
Well, one of the problems is that giving truthful, reliable information on the topic of WWASP programs is defamatory. It's not actionable, illegal or ethically wrong because it's true. But how is a parent to take it when some stranger informs them that they're doing a horrible, horrible thing to their son? Most of them just tune you out. So how do you get the message accross?
Look, ya'll are in the same town, right? Why don't you, Ashley, her mom invite Alex's mom out to lunch. Pick a casual, neutral place and just meet face to face and try to be civil w/ one another. Then you'll find out that there are no lurching monsters in this play, just people who profoundly misunderstand one another.
But for CHRIST's sake, get Alex's parents to either go out to Montana and see for themselves what's going on with their son or ship him home.
Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school.
--Albert Einstein, Out of My Later Years, 1950
Post by: BuzzKill on January 07, 2006, 03:00:00 PM
Keep in mind a visit to the grounds will in no way expose what is actually going on. All that might serve to awaken a parent is keep behind closed doors. The parents will have no better idea after the visit than before, if all they do is visit.
The Parents that had been to Dundee all sang its praises - none had any idea of the realities. One woman (a gran ma if I recall correctly)insisted Dundee had no such thing as OP, b/c she had been there, had taken the tour, and had seen no such thing.
Reading the SCL bloggs really is the best way to know what their son is actually experiencing.
This one:
http://www.springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/ (http://www.springcreeklodgeexperience.blogspot.com/)
is an excellent, honest account. Many others can attest to how accurate it is. This person took the time and trouble to spell it all out.
Possibly, in the 40 some-odd pages, it has been provided already - but no harm in a reminder.
One hopes Alex's folks would take the time to read it and consider the environment they have placed their son in. Is this really what they wanted for him? Can this really be expected to help? I am thinking they bought the marketing and are being manipulated by experts (experts at manipulating parents in crisis) whom they want to believe. One hopes, they will be able to understand their true situation, with some help; and that they will object once they do.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 07, 2006, 03:03:00 PM
I Don't know how to give the info to a family. I am not even sure how I would take it. If was given to them after the fact so now it is up to them to figure out what is right. There is info from here and of course from the school it is a lot to take. It would be easier for you. You have been there and it wasn't a good experience. Is that because of the personality at the time you maturity? I don't know. I don't know you. I haven't been there. My child wouldn't benefit there in my opinion my child is defiant, has not much respect for adults that piss her of. Or me she can be down right horrible at times. She would be in any ones face adult or child if they did her wrong or what she felt was wrong. Mouth running before brain kicks in. (still waiting for her to grow out of that). But she is also loving, but lately more mouthy so she would be in trouble daily I am sure.
Alex is not like that he is respectful, as they say he wants treatment so I pray if they decide to keep him there. That it all works out even though it will be a long road.
It is not for me to say if Ashley's mom and/or Jacki are ready to go to lunch and talk.
Post by: Anonymous on January 07, 2006, 04:51:00 PM
You said it's going to be difficult for you to share this info with Alex's parents. I have a couple suggestions. Maybe you could cut and paste what you find to be the most sincere, useful posts, leaving out the posts or part of posts that you feel slam the parents. Paste it into a simple Word document and print it out. Then tell Jacki that the thread has some useful info that you wanted to make available to her, and explain how you've taken the time to shield her from the personal attacks. Just leave her with the posts and allow her to choose if she wants to read it or not. Maybe once she sees that many people have taken the time to write lengthy, detailed posts, she'll change her mind about coming back to Fornits or allowing you to share info from this site.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 07, 2006, 05:54:00 PM
Thanks
Post by: Antigen on January 07, 2006, 07:16:00 PM
See, people who know them generally view the Program ppl w/ fear. It's a lot more fun to scare them. And, very often, when they've had hold of a kid for a month or so, parents insisting on speaking with him alone and out of their earshot scares them shitless!
Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Anonymous on January 07, 2006, 08:11:00 PM
best- kt
http://www.cafety.org (http://www.cafety.org)
Community Alliance for the Fair and Ethical Treatment of Youth
Post by: BuzzKill on January 07, 2006, 08:53:00 PM
If they say "fine, lets pull him" - then they are threatened with this non sense about paying several months tuition as a penalty of pulling before the contract is up.
A parent really needs to make up their mind before ever contacting program staff. They need to go in and demand the kid be produced, and all their belongings, and all their records, and then they need to leave. Recording the proceedings may be a good idea. Taking along a camera may also be a good idea. Weigh the boy ASAP and get it on record. Get him to a doc ASAP and get him a complete health check.
Post by: Anonymous on January 07, 2006, 11:22:00 PM
I'd say his name but this is a small town and I'd probably get threatened with a lawsuit.. :scared:
Post by: Nihilanthic on January 08, 2006, 05:39:00 AM
By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 08:59:00 AM
maybe you guys should look at your lives a little more closely. yah the program sucked, it fuckin sucked ass. i would know, i was there when it was fuckin hard (dec1996-aug1999). a lot harder than it is now. but i can say that after being on my own and paying my own way for the last three years i am very grateful for the program. i think that without it i would not be a successful person today. and it wasnt the seminars or the processes that helped me it was the little shit like being a clean person and hold myself with respect and demanding respect from the world around me. also i still havent gotten close to someone out here like i did in the program people in the real world dont care about you or what you feel. you guys should be glad you got to experience real love at least once in your life, because from the look of it you wont be experiencing it any time soon again.
That was Clifford on my space.
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 09:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-08 02:39:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"Say it. YOURE ANONYMOUS. Thats the point of this forum!
Uh...duhhhhh...I can't believe I didn't realize that! I guess it's the paranoia setting in...lol! His name is Randy Lovell. He had a daughter that was in the program, so when the kids go see him for an illness or something they also get an earful of the "program".
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 09:22:00 AM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 08, 2006, 10:03:00 AM
Here's onen post in particular:
Geoff Posted: Nov 22, 2005 11:02 PM
i dunno it stole something from me life is just so... different like idk what to say its like life is drained, it messed with my head the stress, parents trusting a complete stranger over me, having monitored phone calls so i could not express what was up without being told i was manipulating, just the tediousness it all started to get to me in the end(post-traumatic stress disorder) im constantly paranoid, check my parents comp history regularly cause if i get any inclination they are looking into a program im outta there no way is it happening again, all i do is smoke a bit of pot all the time... tho my whole time there was a blur but still... that place fucks with you after awhile i have lost all trust for my parents, family etc... soon after i was home i was still on a strict contract i felt like i was still in the program in a way for a long time i had dreams about being there but i would wake up in my room thinking my mom turning on the lights was family parent in the morning waking for another day in hell the dreams have stopped tho
Don't sweat the- Petty Things
Don't pet the- Sweaty Things
Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 10:07:00 AM
you guys are totally crazy. did any of you graduate the program? haha. i understand whats going on here. but come on, "take a look at" how it helped you, or might have helped you, if you let it. yea, i HATED the program when i was there in the beginning. but think of all the people that those programs actually helped. i would not be here if i didnt go. and i thank every day for the 2 years i was there. whatever you do with your life after the program is on you. if you want to try to shut the programs down, fine. but maybe help with a better solution to help problem teens, instead of just forcing the negative down everyones throats about how bad these places are. come on guys. just listen to yourselves. anyone graduate in 2001?
Post by: WWFSMD on January 08, 2006, 10:18:00 AM
*~¢¾MeGaN¢¾~*
Posted: Dec 27, 2005 4:41 PM
some ppl r blind 2 tha fact that scl does try 2 brainwash you, n a lot of ppl let it. its kool if u want to be clean n sober and stay outa trouble, but u dont need tha program for that... its printed out clearly in tha thing that this guy posted that tha program has alot of tha same things a cult does... and personally i think they should shut it down. All it is is a scheme for money. they dont show parents that send their kids there wut it's really like on tha videos & pamphlets that tha parents see for a reason-because most parents wouldn't still send their kid there cuz that place is a shithole n its like hell to be there. They dont tell them how much control they really take over tha kids there... i know tha program has helped for many ppl, but that coulda been done in a way different and less hitler approach. there's so many classes these days that kids could go to that would help them... some that can be a forced thing to go to, but u still have your free time w/ other things, u still can talk 2 family and friends in privacy w/out having to spend months to earn it, etc.
Here are some great links:
http://www.ex-cult.org/ (http://www.ex-cult.org/) (under General Information)
WWASPS http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus ... word=WWASP (http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=Groups.ListGroups&Keyword=WWASP)
Fresh beauty opens one's eyes wherever it is really seen, but the very abundance and completeness of the common beauty that besets our steps prevents its being absorbed and appreciated. It is a good thing, therefore, to make short excursions now and then to the bottom of the sea among dulse and coral, or up among the clouds on mountain-tops, or in balloons, or even to creep like worms into dark holes and caverns underground, not only to learn something of what is going on in those out-of-the-way places, but to see better what the sun sees on our return to common everyday beauty.
-- John Muir
_________________
Obey your Noodly Master
Emancipate from mental slavery
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 10:27:00 AM
2nd from last
Post by: Anonymous on January 08, 2006, 10:37:00 AM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 08, 2006, 10:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-08 07:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I found it on myspace.com. That is where you ppl have said to look. This is why parents are confused there is good story's and bad. If you didn't go there you would probably also be confused."
That's why we're providing links to the entire site[/b]. :roll: .......and then some.
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles Austin Beard
Post by: WWFSMD on January 08, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
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On 2006-01-08 07:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I found it on myspace.com. That is where you ppl have said to look. This is why parents are confused there is good story's and bad. If you didn't go there you would probably also be confused."
Now that you shown us your ability to copy/paste, do you have any thoughts of your own on the subject?
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for a reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
Post by: Antigen on January 08, 2006, 01:58:00 PM
But it's just not so. I have a brother who went through one of the early, more notorious programs twice. This was 30 odd years ago. And, to this day, not only does he defend the program and deny even having wittnessed abuses that were documented in the media while he was there, but he'll attack me or anyone else who disagrees with him. They got him, hard, hook line and sinker. I was 6 when they stole him from me.
Here's another glowing testimonial of the Program right after the kid's obit.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =60#162392 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13085&forum=44&Sort=&start=60#162392)
Here's another similar story, as part of an indepth investigative report by Lou Kilzer for the Denver Rocky Mountain News. This mother said these things after her son shot himself in the head right in front of her while she was threatening to send him back for ANOTHER li'll 'tune up'.
Quote
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
""Corey was very happy in the program," she says. "It was the best place for him. He was happy the whole time."
"Laura says proof that Corey was happy and well-adjusted at Paradise Cove can be seen from letters he sent home saying he loved being there."
...
"I did return my son Corey to SCL (Spring Creek Lodge) after he'd been home a year ? the moment I found out that he was drinking and smoking pot. ... He is now back home again, but he understands that if he runs away from home, he stays wherever he runs to. I WON'T HAVE HIM IN MY HOUSE WITH THIS BEHAVIOR."
...
"I think he was trying to manipulate me into sending him back into the program where he could get the help he really needed," she says.
"It is very unfortunate that in his inability to cope with life he couldn't just ask me, because I would have sent him back if he wanted to go ...
"He was happy in the program ... All you have to do is read his letters."
"Presiding at the funeral was the director of Teen Help's Spring Creek Lodge."
I HIGHLY recomend printing out Lou Kilzer's whole story or even the whole series.
Look, these methods are extremely effective. It's not expansion or exageration (nor manipulation or imagination) to compare them to the methods used to turn good, patriotic American POWs temporarily into good Communists. Senator Sam Ervin (of Watergate fame) made the same comparison back in `74 in his committee report "Individual Rights and the Federal Role in Behavior Modification"
http://thestraights.com/images/seed-Ervin-brainwash.htm (http://thestraights.com/images/seed-Ervin-brainwash.htm)
This is the report that forced NIDA to stop federal funding to Synanon based programs. This happened sometime between the time my family got involved w/ the Seed and when they put me in Straight. I've read reems and volumes and talked to a LOT of ppl who have been involved in WWASP and other similar programs. Same bullshit, slightly different window dressing. Same results.
In a nutshell, the Therapeutic Community model is extremely effective! Not the least bit therapeutic nor conducive to healthy communities, but very, very effective!
Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-- Old Farmer's Almanac
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 12:38:00 PM
I wanted to ask you a question. When Alex moved in with you and Jacki called and
asked you if he planned on living with you. If I remember correctly you told her, no you were
helping him move in with a friend. Why did you not then help him with going home and talking
to his parents? Do you or did you feel he was in any danger going back home?
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 09, 2006, 12:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 09:38:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Ashley's Mom
I wanted to ask you a question. When Alex moved in with you and Jacki called and
asked you if he planned on living with you. If I remember correctly you told her, no you were
helping him move in with a friend. Why did you not then help him with going home and talking
to his parents? Do you or did you feel he was in any danger going back home? "
This is not quite how it happened. Alex was told he could stay with us until he worked things out with his parents. We encouraged him to try to work things out with his family, and had no problem taking him home to do so. When he went home, he left again and came back stating they would not listen to him or work with him. At that time, he stated he knew of a friend that he could share an apartment with. We did not encourage this, he was doing this on his own. He knew he could not live with us forever, but was adamant about not returning home if they were going to send him away. We did not fear for him returning home, as we had no idea anything like this would happen and didn't even know places like this existed.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 02:29:00 PM
go to a 3 month program some tough love place if I recall correctly. Then he spent the day with Ashley when he got home everything changed. It seems that she is controlling in the relationship and he is egger to please her. This is why his parents couldn't get any where with him. Same goes with her not going to school until he went with her. So he broke there rules walked in the freezing rain so she would go to school. You said in this forum that they kept him from school. I don't believe they were wrong here. He was having drug test every week or random they were afraid to send him back to school were he could have the temptation to get something. Chances are high that he may have seeing that he was doing 6 to 7 hits of exticy a night cocaine the whole summer and had tried not sure how many times heroin. If he had a bad test he would be in jail and have a felonies on his record. Plus jail was not going to give him any help as far as drugs were concerned. Do you notice that Ashley is more controlling in their relationship and maybe her feelings of him leaving and her not seeing him possibly made it hard for him and his parents?
Not saying she is a bad person but because they are young and dealing with a lot of feelings it is
only natural to not want your boyfriend to leave.
I thought the kid he was going to move in with was a kid you helped get emancipated from his
parents? I remember something Ashley had said once. That you would go out of your way to
help any of her friends. Maybe they all don't need the help, maybe they tell you things that aren't true because they can use you and their parents against each other. We know kids lie when scared. Ashley did a few times at first when they got pulled over and Alex went to jail. She lied
to you and Jacki I am sure it was because she was scared. This time the help just made it worse
he would be in a 3 month treatment center like he wanted not this place.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 09, 2006, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 04:01:00 PM
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 04:45:00 PM
Maybe Jacki was so hurt that her son wanted to be with you and not her. she never said that but it is a possibility to the reason why she may have called him. I believe that is when he came home and left the same day. I could see how that would hurt. Maybe it wasn't that they were upset nobody would sit and talk to him about the situation maybe that is what they said but the truth is they were not getting what they wanted and you are easier to manipulate. I don't feel Ashley is mature enough to give Alex the guidance he needed in this situation.
He had been in detox state since Nov.9th so his frame of mind was way off. So how would he know what to do or what he wanted or what was right. Great he wanted treatment that is what his parents wanted to give him but the places they wanted he and Ashley wouldn't see each other and there is were the problems came.
I believe. haven't been told but believe that he is gone because ashleys control over him made it very hard for his parents to communicate with him. They are probably afraid now to bring him home before he has had treatment because of Ashleys control. as you say "I am sure he never imagined he would be taken against his will."
I am sure his parents never imagined they would have to go to such extreme measures.
Ashley was there the night they got busted. he admitted to doing all these drugs the whole time they have been dating. They were doing a lot of drugs at once and some really bad one's. How would you feel if I said that you didn't get her the right help. That I hope you don't get a phone call because she od'd before you notice the lies and manipulation.
Kids in detox state can not always make the right decision for themselves. He may have wanted an outpatient place so he could be there for Ashley. It doesn't mean it is what he needed.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 04:48:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 12:13:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:Didnt you have coffee with Jacki and forget to tell her about what her son had told you about his drug use? She had no idea it had gotten so bad. Wouldnt you as a mother want someone who knew this about your child to inform you so you could make a decision regarding your child? Why do you think Alex confided in you? I know for a fact his parents would have listened but there would have been consequences. Actually, when we do something in life, there are always consequences. Maybe he told you because he knew there would be none with you. You should have spoken to his parents about his drug use. That is your job as a parent!!!!
"We have never helped any of Ashley's friends get emancipated. I didn't even know that boy, I only heard about it from Ashley and Alex. I still to this day have not met this boy. Yes, we probably would help anyone, not just her friends, anyone who needed help, within reason. The way you tell your version of what happened, is not exactly the way I heard/remember it. Alex did go home to work things out on Friday while Ashley was at work. He called me to come pick him up and get his stuff to move back home. Shortly after picking him up, Jacki called and told him not to come back home that night as they were not emotionally ready to handle it. He went home Saturday at 12:00pm. He called Ashley later in the afternoon and told her his mom went shopping to Old Navy, so they never spoke. Yes, I believe Ashley was upset, but so was Alex. Upset that no one would sit and talk to him about the situation. He wanted to reach some mutual agreement. His father came home and never spoke to him. He tried to show his father the paperwork on Maplegrove and was basically ignored. Many hours had passed with no communication before he decided to try to talk to them, I recall it was at least 1:00am when he left home again. The morning he left for school, Ashley already was at school. Granted, it was very hard for me to get her to go back to school, but she did go. We met several times with the counselors and principals, and they also helped her to return to school. Her reason for not going back was not just because Alex was not there, there were a lot of other issues with the other kids. As for all the drugs, all I know is Alex sat and talked with us and told us what he had been doing. He also told us he wanted to stop, seek local treatment, go back to school, and work as hard as he had to in order to graduate in June. He knew he had to quit using drugs, he knew the consequences involved if he failed his drug test. We believed he was sincere. He had been drug free at that time since November 9th. Yes, maybe Ashley did have a lot of control over him, but he was looking for guidance. He was very confused, but he did know what he wanted and what he did not want. When I met with Jacki, the three month program was not even an option. She stated that would never help him, he needed longer. They were running out of time, and needed us and Ashley to help convince him to go to this "school." We did talk to him while he was in jail, and he did agree to go to a three month program, but when he came home they gave him the paperwork on all of the other programs. When he looked into these programs he saw they were 12-18 months. That is when he refused to go. I am sure he never imagined he would be taken against his will. We never tried to tell him what to do, we listened to him and tried to understand what he wanted to do for himself. "
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 13:01:00, Antigen wrote:
"CIM, seems to me asif Jackie's not giving you quite all of the facts either. Remember that. If she'll trick her own son into something like SCL, of course she'll tell others whatever li'll white lies she has to to keep needed support. Don't be surprised, either, if she snips you out of her life if you ask difficult questions about this "program".Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
"
Of course that is how you would see it. It couldn't be Ashley's mom isn't telling the truth or easily manipulated by the kids. why? Because she isn't the parent with the kid in a place you don't like. If Ashley's mom says it it must be true. Because you know her so well. Please people open your eyes.
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 05:13:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 13:53:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 13:01:00, Antigen wrote:
"CIM, seems to me asif Jackie's not giving you quite all of the facts either. Remember that. If she'll trick her own son into something like SCL, of course she'll tell others whatever li'll white lies she has to to keep needed support. Don't be surprised, either, if she snips you out of her life if you ask difficult questions about this "program".Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
"
Of course that is how you would see it. It couldn't be Ashley's mom isn't telling the truth or easily manipulated by the kids. why? Because she isn't the parent with the kid in a place you don't like. If Ashley's mom says it it must be true. Because you know her so well. Please people open your eyes. "
Now, wait for just a moment. You are telling us to open OUR eyes? This is ridiculous. The only reason anyone is believing us over them is because Alex's family has been blatantly caught in numerous lies on this forum. We have evidence to back up our claims and they don't. We found proof to expose their accusations as lies, straight forward lies. And, of course it couldn't be Jackie telling little white lies because she is YOUR friend. I don't see how disagreeing with an abusive facility and sending any teen there is cause for telling us to open our eyes. This isn't just about Alex anymore, it's gone too far. This is about every child in one of these facilities and the "parents" that keep them there.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 05:17:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 14:13:00, Shlee wrote:Actually, his family has posted once when Jacki responded. Im not sure what lies your blaming on them.
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 13:53:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 13:01:00, Antigen wrote:
"CIM, seems to me asif Jackie's not giving you quite all of the facts either. Remember that. If she'll trick her own son into something like SCL, of course she'll tell others whatever li'll white lies she has to to keep needed support. Don't be surprised, either, if she snips you out of her life if you ask difficult questions about this "program".Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
"
Of course that is how you would see it. It couldn't be Ashley's mom isn't telling the truth or easily manipulated by the kids. why? Because she isn't the parent with the kid in a place you don't like. If Ashley's mom says it it must be true. Because you know her so well. Please people open your eyes. "
Now, wait for just a moment. You are telling us to open OUR eyes? This is ridiculous. The only reason anyone is believing us over them is because Alex's family has been blatantly caught in numerous lies on this forum. We have evidence to back up our claims and they don't. We found proof to expose their accusations as lies, straight forward lies. And, of course it couldn't be Jackie telling little white lies because she is YOUR friend. I don't see how disagreeing with an abusive facility and sending any teen there is cause for telling us to open our eyes. This isn't just about Alex anymore, it's gone too far. This is about every child in one of these facilities and the "parents" that keep them there."
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 05:23:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 09, 2006, 05:39:00 PM
I believe that Alex's parents were quite aware of his drug use, as they were the ones who informed me of it. He only informed us of the prior years of drug use, which went way back. This is the first I have heard of heroin use. That is a new one. I am not here to argue with you. I was only looking for some insight as to where Alex had been sent. His parents never wanted to talk with us, they knew where he was and knew our phone number. It goes both ways. I am not very good at writing out these things, especially when I don't even know who you are. I am tired of being told that we were being "manipulated".
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 05:48:00 PM
I know.. But Jacki sent her child to a abusive bad bad place! She didn't hear any of this until after he was placed there. Even ashleys mom admits to that. Now it is her job to do what she thinks is right for him. Then I will hear.. What dose she have to think about he could be abused. There is so much info. she is doing more then most of these parents possibly do. There is Doctors here that are reviewing and keeping a close eye on what is going on with him she isn't taking only SCL word on it all, until she can find the best place for him. one could say that allowing your child to look and hang in a group such as she dose is abuse. Drug use is higher in the goth world then some. Vi lance is high because they are not excepted by all. It is still the parents job to raise and make decision with there kids. Not everyone is going to agree.
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 06:00:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 09, 2006, 06:01:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Just as you could say it was wrong of Jacki to have sent alex there. I could say it is wrong that you let and pay for you daughter to dress and dye her hair, tattoo her body like that. She said she wasn't aloud to have piercing other then her ears one time I was around her. Then Alex comes home with a bar in the back of his neck. On ashley's vampire site she talks about the tattoo/piercing party she had. wonder how many other kids got in trouble with their parents for getting something done to their bodies. But it is not my place to tell you how to raise your daughter. Ways I handle my kids to ways you or millions other handle there's will never match. Could I say I totally disagree that a parent should allow there child to look like that? YES Dose it matter or make me right? NO 50% could say it is screwing up her life. how she is excepted as an adult what type of doors in life it may open for her. 50% could say she will be fine she is expressing herself she is artistic. In the end it is up to you.
I know.. But Jacki sent her child to a abusive bad bad place! She didn't hear any of this until after he was placed there. Even ashleys mom admits to that. Now it is her job to do what she thinks is right for him. Then I will hear.. What dose she have to think about he could be abused. There is so much info. she is doing more then most of these parents possibly do. There is Doctors here that are reviewing and keeping a close eye on what is going on with him she isn't taking only SCL word on it all, until she can find the best place for him. one could say that allowing your child to look and hang in a group such as she dose is abuse. Drug use is higher in the goth world then some. Vi lance is high because they are not excepted by all. It is still the parents job to raise and make decision with there kids. Not everyone is going to agree."
Now, who is this? Is it necessary to insult me in that way? I never said his parents were "bad" or put them down. Yep, we had several tattoo/piercing parties at our home. We have several friends who received tattoos, including Ashley. It was done by a close friend, and we were present. No, no underage kids received anything unless the parents were there to sign a waiver. Yes, a couple parents actually came and did just that! We had nothing to do with Alex's piercing. Didn't know about it until his father told me. Ashley will be 18 in a few weeks, she could go anywhere and get whatever she wants, but she won't. This way, we know who is doing the work - we like to call this "communication". Hair dye - washes out in a about a week. Big deal! Yes, she does only have ear piercings. Will she get more after she turns 18, I hope not - but who knows.
Didn't know it was an abusive facility, well maybe his parents should have done more investigating before shipping him off, it wasn't hard, we did it.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 06:11:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 14:21:00, Shlee wrote:I believe I apologized for my youngest daughter. Maybe getting crashed into in the hall had something to do with her and her friends posting bull. She wont be posting ever. What comes from my computer will be from me. I have not tried to hide who I am. Neither has caught in the middle. You have been a guest in my home on a few occasions, and you have always been treated kindly. Getting bashed isnt fun for either of us. We are both truly caught in the middle.
"Trying to get technical now? I'm reaching out to ALL of his family members. Extended and all. I know for a fact that his aunt has been posting and his cousin and her friends. And, well thanks to Antigen and the fact that they can read the addresses they came from, there's not too much you can hide."
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 15:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI believe I apologized for my youngest daughter. Maybe getting crashed into in the hall had something to do with her and her friends posting bull. She wont be posting ever. What comes from my computer will be from me. I have not tried to hide who I am. Neither has caught in the middle. You have been a guest in my home on a few occasions, and you have always been treated kindly. Getting bashed isnt fun for either of us. We are both truly caught in the middle. "
On 2006-01-09 14:21:00, Shlee wrote:
"Trying to get technical now? I'm reaching out to ALL of his family members. Extended and all. I know for a fact that his aunt has been posting and his cousin and her friends. And, well thanks to Antigen and the fact that they can read the addresses they came from, there's not too much you can hide."
Crashed into in the hallways?? I don't even see her. I only go to that school for 2 hours anyways. Maybe, if you wanted to sit down and think about it, that your daughter is lying too. I don't even walk out of that classroom when I'm there, I'm too busy doing artwork on the computer.
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 06:17:00 PM
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On 2006-01-09 15:15:00, Shlee wrote:okay, thats fair. you may be right. too much is being said by everyone. what is true and what is a lie? I cant even tell anymore
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI believe I apologized for my youngest daughter. Maybe getting crashed into in the hall had something to do with her and her friends posting bull. She wont be posting ever. What comes from my computer will be from me. I have not tried to hide who I am. Neither has caught in the middle. You have been a guest in my home on a few occasions, and you have always been treated kindly. Getting bashed isnt fun for either of us. We are both truly caught in the middle. "
On 2006-01-09 14:21:00, Shlee wrote:
"Trying to get technical now? I'm reaching out to ALL of his family members. Extended and all. I know for a fact that his aunt has been posting and his cousin and her friends. And, well thanks to Antigen and the fact that they can read the addresses they came from, there's not too much you can hide."
Crashed into in the hallways?? I don't even see her. I only go to that school for 2 hours anyways. Maybe, if you wanted to sit down and think about it, that your daughter is lying too. I don't even walk out of that classroom when I'm there, I'm too busy doing artwork on the computer."
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 06:19:00 PM
Ashley's Mom, Alex's parents are obviously all screwed up. I say this because it's what I say of *any* parents who look at their child's approaching eighteenth birthday as "running out of time." That, in my educated opinion, is an indicator of an extremely unhealthy desire to maintain control over an adult child's life.
When Alex is 18, please be kind enough to him to hire an attorney file a habeas corpus petition to produce him in court so he can physically say if he wants to leave.
If his parents try to get the court to order him to stay, please be kind enough to hire an attorney to represent his interest, seeking a new trial or hearing or doing everything possible, to get the court to revisit the case or move him. It should be possible for an attorney to argue that his presumable conviction was not a truly adversarial process because his parents felt they were "running out of time" and *wanted* to put him away past his 18th birthday and were seeking legal leverage to be able to do so.
The juvenile justice system can incarcerate someone until age 21, usually. But even in juvenile court, the accused has the right to representation that represents *him* and whether *he* is guilty or innocent---not his parents.
If he is found guilty and can't get it thrown out, a family court has to apply the standard of doing what is in the best interests of the child (in the case of delinquency, to rehabilitate the child). An attorney could base the case in court on SCL being abusive or neglectful, or being ineffective, and some other placement being better.
I know lawyers have to be paid, but Ginger probably has enough information from you to be able to substantiate who you are when you post. That means when Alex is coming up on his 18th birthday, you can come on here and ask for donations to his legal defense fund.
If Alex did whatever he is charged with, it is not necessarily wrong for him to be incarcerated until age 21---I can't possibly read all this, I don't know the charges, I don't know the potential penalties, I don't know if he did it. But accuseds and even convicts have rights. Youth or adult.
People's rights may frequently get violated, but their chances of successfully asserting them are a lot better with a good lawyer.
If Ashley wants to help Alex, the very best way to do it is to get a McJob and save all the money for a lawyer. You can save a lot in six months, even from a minimum wage teenage job.
If you want to help Alex, the very best way to do it is to set up a legal defense fund on his behalf, not owned by him (because then his parents could take it), and have his lawyer go to bat for him the day he turns 18.
If you want to give Alex money for when he gets out that he can get to but that his parents cannot touch, then what you probably need to do is open a UTMA account with a bank---which is real simple---in Alex's name with yourself as custodian.
Then it's Alex's money automatically on his 18th birthday (in most states, 21 in some, but even in those you can probably specify in the account creation that it becomes his at 18).
If you can't do the lawyer thing, then maybe what to do is just set up the UTMA account with yourself as custodian, give the account information here, so people can send donations to his account. Then he'll have his own money that his parents can't touch.
Here's a tricky bit I think might work with the lawyer thing. His parents, of course, are going to try to claim this guy isn't his lawyer. If you set up a UTMA account with yourself as custodian, from the day you set up the account, everything in it is legally *his money*. It's just that nobody can access it but the custodian (in this case you) of the account. As the custodian for that account, you can spend his money on his behalf, and your custodianship continues until he shows the place (bank, brokerage, whatever) where the account is that he's of age.
I *think* that if you open a UTMA account for Alex with yourself as custodian, and after he's 18 if he doesn't show up as having gotten out you retain an attorney on Alex's behalf using his money out of that UTMA account, that in the eyes of the court, that is going to make the lawyer you hire for Alex legally Alex's lawyer.
Which will make it a lot easier for that lawyer to file motions with the court(s) on Alex's behalf.
If I opened an account in your name and mine to give you money, I could hire a lawyer with it and say that's your lawyer, but the court might question whether it's really your money.
Because of the way UTMA law works, there is no legal question at all it's Alex's money, and if your custodianship hasn't been ended by an adult Alex, there's no legal question that you as custodian have the right to spend it on his behalf.
If his parents tried to tell the court the expenditure wasn't a reasonable expenditure on his behalf, and he's 18, the obvious next move for the lawyer you retain for him would be to say, "If Alex wants to end the custodianship and claim his money, we certainly encourage that, at which point he can decide for himself if he wishes to continue to retain my services. We would be more than happy if Alex claimed his money today, Your Honor. Our whole contention is that we are concerned Alex may be being coerced and misled into believing his has no money and no options and is not free to leave. We would be overjoyed and greatly reassured to know that Alex has been made aware that he owns this money."
This is probably the most effective strategy to help this particular kid.
I'm checking on some of the details of UTMA (Uniform Transfer to Minors) accounts to find out the best way to get Alex access to this money the day he turns 18. By "access" I also include Alex knowing he has this money.
There's nother sneaky way to get information to Alex, or get him produced, once he turns 18 if he doesn't leave, if the "you aren't really Alex's lawyer" contention is successful. People support some other recent survivor in suing SCL, pick a survivor that knew Alex at SCL, and have that survivor's lawyer issue a subpeona to Alex to appear in Court.
The lawyer can tapdance all over their asses if they try to keep the process server from serving 18 year old Alex, and the lawyer can then make him physically show up. At which point people can tell him that he has his own money, doesn't have to go back, isn't stuck choosing between coercion and a shitty exit plan.
The reality is that probably nobody is going to break Alex loose before he turns 18, and that after he's 18, because of him having charges against him, getting him loose is quite possibly going to involve lawyers and money.
Julie
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 06:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am trying to figure out how to get a name. Im sure its not hard but im a little computer illiterate."
Just go over to the sidebar on the left. You will see Gray bars that say titles. Under forums, it will have orange sub-titles. Register is the second one. Click on that and then fill out your info. I know, I was confused at first, also.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 06:45:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 06:46:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:15:00, Shlee wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteI believe I apologized for my youngest daughter. Maybe getting crashed into in the hall had something to do with her and her friends posting bull. She wont be posting ever. What comes from my computer will be from me. I have not tried to hide who I am. Neither has caught in the middle. You have been a guest in my home on a few occasions, and you have always been treated kindly. Getting bashed isnt fun for either of us. We are both truly caught in the middle. "
On 2006-01-09 14:21:00, Shlee wrote:
"Trying to get technical now? I'm reaching out to ALL of his family members. Extended and all. I know for a fact that his aunt has been posting and his cousin and her friends. And, well thanks to Antigen and the fact that they can read the addresses they came from, there's not too much you can hide."
Crashed into in the hallways?? I don't even see her. I only go to that school for 2 hours anyways. Maybe, if you wanted to sit down and think about it, that your daughter is lying too. I don't even walk out of that classroom when I'm there, I'm too busy doing artwork on the computer."
everyone is lying but you
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 06:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:01:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Just as you could say it was wrong of Jacki to have sent alex there. I could say it is wrong that you let and pay for you daughter to dress and dye her hair, tattoo her body like that. She said she wasn't aloud to have piercing other then her ears one time I was around her. Then Alex comes home with a bar in the back of his neck. On ashley's vampire site she talks about the tattoo/piercing party she had. wonder how many other kids got in trouble with their parents for getting something done to their bodies. But it is not my place to tell you how to raise your daughter. Ways I handle my kids to ways you or millions other handle there's will never match. Could I say I totally disagree that a parent should allow there child to look like that? YES Dose it matter or make me right? NO 50% could say it is screwing up her life. how she is excepted as an adult what type of doors in life it may open for her. 50% could say she will be fine she is expressing herself she is artistic. In the end it is up to you.
I know.. But Jacki sent her child to a abusive bad bad place! She didn't hear any of this until after he was placed there. Even ashleys mom admits to that. Now it is her job to do what she thinks is right for him. Then I will hear.. What dose she have to think about he could be abused. There is so much info. she is doing more then most of these parents possibly do. There is Doctors here that are reviewing and keeping a close eye on what is going on with him she isn't taking only SCL word on it all, until she can find the best place for him. one could say that allowing your child to look and hang in a group such as she dose is abuse. Drug use is higher in the goth world then some. Vi lance is high because they are not excepted by all. It is still the parents job to raise and make decision with there kids. Not everyone is going to agree."
Now, who is this? Is it necessary to insult me in that way? I never said his parents were "bad" or put them down. Yep, we had several tattoo/piercing parties at our home. We have several friends who received tattoos, including Ashley. It was done by a close friend, and we were present. No, no underage kids received anything unless the parents were there to sign a waiver. Yes, a couple parents actually came and did just that! We had nothing to do with Alex's piercing. Didn't know about it until his father told me. Ashley will be 18 in a few weeks, she could go anywhere and get whatever she wants, but she won't. This way, we know who is doing the work - we like to call this "communication". Hair dye - washes out in a about a week. Big deal! Yes, she does only have ear piercings. Will she get more after she turns 18, I hope not - but who knows.
Didn't know it was an abusive facility, well maybe his parents should have done more investigating before shipping him off, it wasn't hard, we did it."
I am not insulting you in any way. I said it is your right as a parent. That I do not have to agree. how is that an insult? I am sure there are things I do you may not agree on. I have tattoos also you are missing the point. You do not have to explain it is your choice.
Maybe they would have more time IF Ashley wasn't controlling him?
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 09, 2006, 07:04:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 09, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 09, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:37:00, Shlee wrote:Thanks
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am trying to figure out how to get a name. Im sure its not hard but im a little computer illiterate."
Just go over to the sidebar on the left. You will see Gray bars that say titles. Under forums, it will have orange sub-titles. Register is the second one. Click on that and then fill out your info. I know, I was confused at first, also."
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 09, 2006, 07:14:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 07:19:00 PM
As a parent, I would be laughing if it wasn't so damned sad that relatives or friends or parents are whinging about a seventeen year old boy being more under the "control" of his girlfriend than of his parents.
I'd be more worried for one that *wasn't*.
Men who, as teenage boys, made complete idiots of themselves over some teenage girl, and ignored everything their parents said---which is most men---are the ones who mostly end up healthy, functional grown men.
The men who are really screwed up are the ones who are still living with Dear Mama at thirty-five.
A boyfriend/girlfriend having more influence over a teen than the parents is normal and healthy. Even when the boyfriend/girlfriend has scarily more influence over the teen than the parents do is normal and healthy.
It's okay that parents are scared spitless over that. That's normal, too. All parents of normal, reasonably healthy kids (which just means kids who have a typical number of random abnormalities and problems) are frequently scared spitless for our offspring. That's parenthood, comes with the territory.
Is Alex a screwed up wild child? Apparently. Is he wild beyond and outside the normal spectrum of mild to wild in any generation of teens? Doesn't look it. Looks like he's a bit wilder than average.
I don't blame his parents at all for being scared spitless. I blame them for overreacting and providing a "solution" that (in my opinion) is worse for any child than any problem.
Mr. and Mrs. Alex's Parents: You're either naive or control freaks, and the responsible thing to do would be to wise up and transfer your kid to a reputable 6 week or 3 month drug rehab program, not a troubled teen RTC. Reputable 6 wk to 3 mo. drug rehab has good success rates. Troubled teen RTCs just further damage your child--if you leave your kid there and don't have disastrous, family shattering results, you'll be very lucky.
Nobody likes being told they're screwing up, but you're screwing up.
There is no excuse for sending a drug abusing adult or child to any facility for longer than 100 days, *maximum*, because there isn't any good evidence that adding more time does any better job of getting someone off drugs and keeping them sober.
The only thing sending a drug abusing child to a facility for longer than 100 days does is get the inconvenient, unpleasant kid out of your hair and put the kid through hell---for no other reason than getting him out of your hair or exerting absolute control over every minute of his life, 24/7.
I would not send my child to a WWASP facility, any WWASP facility, even if she was in the hospital in critical condition from OD-ing on crank.
I'd send her to rehab somewhere in that case, but not any WWASP facility. I'd never send anyone, even someone at death's door, to any rehab facility for a course of rehab longer than three months.
Why?
There is no sensible reason to believe that any rehab course longer than three months, max, does any better than a three month or less rehab course. Advertising form places that try to sell you long Programs doesn't count as a sensible reason. They don't have reputable, scientific studies that say these Programs are good for the people who go through them. The available reputable evidence goes the other way.
Look at what the government itself says when it defines "long term" for drug rehab treatment:
"The median length of stay for completed long-term residential treatment episodes was 75 days, ranging from 73 days for cocaine to 91 days for opiates."
73 to 91 days is "long term"---not six months to years. Judges aren't putting, for example, 25 year old drunk drivers in adult versions of six months to multi-year residential Programs like SCL. They would exist for adults, and repeat drunk drivers or drugged drivers *would* be getting sent if they *worked*. They don't.
Or not any better than a drug rehab course that is 3 months *at the most*.
You can get all kinds of actual research information from http://oas.samhsa.gov (http://oas.samhsa.gov) -- which is the site I culled that quote from.
Julie
Post by: Mykidsmom on January 09, 2006, 07:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 16:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I'm 39, I have a 10 year old daughter with some special needs, I tutor/teach a seventeen year old who is an incredibly sweet girl but who these places would consider a "troubled teen" in a heartbeat. I tutor her because her pshrink says she is unable to attend a regular school. Her parents (and I, not that that matters) agree.
As a parent, I would be laughing if it wasn't so damned sad that relatives or friends or parents are whinging about a seventeen year old boy being more under the "control" of his girlfriend than of his parents.
I'd be more worried for one that *wasn't*.
Men who, as teenage boys, made complete idiots of themselves over some teenage girl, and ignored everything their parents said---which is most men---are the ones who mostly end up healthy, functional grown men.
The men who are really screwed up are the ones who are still living with Dear Mama at thirty-five.
A boyfriend/girlfriend having more influence over a teen than the parents is normal and healthy. Even when the boyfriend/girlfriend has scarily more influence over the teen than the parents do is normal and healthy.
It's okay that parents are scared spitless over that. That's normal, too. All parents of normal, reasonably healthy kids (which just means kids who have a typical number of random abnormalities and problems) are frequently scared spitless for our offspring. That's parenthood, comes with the territory.
Is Alex a screwed up wild child? Apparently. Is he wild beyond and outside the normal spectrum of mild to wild in any generation of teens? Doesn't look it. Looks like he's a bit wilder than average.
I don't blame his parents at all for being scared spitless. I blame them for overreacting and providing a "solution" that (in my opinion) is worse for any child than any problem.
Mr. and Mrs. Alex's Parents: You're either naive or control freaks, and the responsible thing to do would be to wise up and transfer your kid to a reputable 6 week or 3 month drug rehab program, not a troubled teen RTC. Reputable 6 wk to 3 mo. drug rehab has good success rates. Troubled teen RTCs just further damage your child--if you leave your kid there and don't have disastrous, family shattering results, you'll be very lucky.
Nobody likes being told they're screwing up, but you're screwing up.
There is no excuse for sending a drug abusing adult or child to any facility for longer than 100 days, *maximum*, because there isn't any good evidence that adding more time does any better job of getting someone off drugs and keeping them sober.
The only thing sending a drug abusing child to a facility for longer than 100 days does is get the inconvenient, unpleasant kid out of your hair and put the kid through hell---for no other reason than getting him out of your hair or exerting absolute control over every minute of his life, 24/7.
I would not send my child to a WWASP facility, any WWASP facility, even if she was in the hospital in critical condition from OD-ing on crank.
I'd send her to rehab somewhere in that case, but not any WWASP facility. I'd never send anyone, even someone at death's door, to any rehab facility for a course of rehab longer than three months.
Why?
There is no sensible reason to believe that any rehab course longer than three months, max, does any better than a three month or less rehab course. Advertising form places that try to sell you long Programs doesn't count as a sensible reason. They don't have reputable, scientific studies that say these Programs are good for the people who go through them. The available reputable evidence goes the other way.
Look at what the government itself says when it defines "long term" for drug rehab treatment:
"The median length of stay for completed long-term residential treatment episodes was 75 days, ranging from 73 days for cocaine to 91 days for opiates."
73 to 91 days is "long term"---not six months to years. Judges aren't putting, for example, 25 year old drunk drivers in adult versions of six months to multi-year residential Programs like SCL. They would exist for adults, and repeat drunk drivers or drugged drivers *would* be getting sent if they *worked*. They don't.
Or not any better than a drug rehab course that is 3 months *at the most*.
You can get all kinds of actual research information from http://oas.samhsa.gov (http://oas.samhsa.gov) -- which is the site I culled that quote from.
Julie
"
Anyone who has done a minimal amount of research on any WASP program can easily see that there is far too much negative information on far too many independant web sites.
I ran into a sales person for Spring Creek Lodge when I was seeking a program for my son. Boy was he smooth... he had me ready to sign on the bottom line until I started checking them out...
I guess what I am saying is that from someone who has a child who spent 104 days in wilderness (says to this day that it was the best experience of his life) and is now in a boarding school for the next 6-9 months -- do your research... I would pull this kid in a heartbeat from any WWASP program especially that one.
As far as the length of time goes, my first sniff of trouble was that the length of the contract -- why should you have a predetermined contract???? What if your child is ready to come home before then... when I hear about these kids staying for years it makes me sick.
If I had a child in a facility (and I do) and I was not getting excellent feedback on how the child was progressing and that they both (the child and the facility) felt like they were progressing -- I would pull them.
Kids will be kids but if they are not moving forward then either it is not a good match or there is something seriously wrong.
Sorry didn't mean to ramble... ::soapbox::
Post by: Anonymous on January 09, 2006, 08:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:53:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:01:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Just as you could say it was wrong of Jacki to have sent alex there. I could say it is wrong that you let and pay for you daughter to dress and dye her hair, tattoo her body like that. She said she wasn't aloud to have piercing other then her ears one time I was around her. Then Alex comes home with a bar in the back of his neck. On ashley's vampire site she talks about the tattoo/piercing party she had. wonder how many other kids got in trouble with their parents for getting something done to their bodies. But it is not my place to tell you how to raise your daughter. Ways I handle my kids to ways you or millions other handle there's will never match. Could I say I totally disagree that a parent should allow there child to look like that? YES Dose it matter or make me right? NO 50% could say it is screwing up her life. how she is excepted as an adult what type of doors in life it may open for her. 50% could say she will be fine she is expressing herself she is artistic. In the end it is up to you.
I know.. But Jacki sent her child to a abusive bad bad place! She didn't hear any of this until after he was placed there. Even ashleys mom admits to that. Now it is her job to do what she thinks is right for him. Then I will hear.. What dose she have to think about he could be abused. There is so much info. she is doing more then most of these parents possibly do. There is Doctors here that are reviewing and keeping a close eye on what is going on with him she isn't taking only SCL word on it all, until she can find the best place for him. one could say that allowing your child to look and hang in a group such as she dose is abuse. Drug use is higher in the goth world then some. Vi lance is high because they are not excepted by all. It is still the parents job to raise and make decision with there kids. Not everyone is going to agree."
Now, who is this? Is it necessary to insult me in that way? I never said his parents were "bad" or put them down. Yep, we had several tattoo/piercing parties at our home. We have several friends who received tattoos, including Ashley. It was done by a close friend, and we were present. No, no underage kids received anything unless the parents were there to sign a waiver. Yes, a couple parents actually came and did just that! We had nothing to do with Alex's piercing. Didn't know about it until his father told me. Ashley will be 18 in a few weeks, she could go anywhere and get whatever she wants, but she won't. This way, we know who is doing the work - we like to call this "communication". Hair dye - washes out in a about a week. Big deal! Yes, she does only have ear piercings. Will she get more after she turns 18, I hope not - but who knows.
Didn't know it was an abusive facility, well maybe his parents should have done more investigating before shipping him off, it wasn't hard, we did it."
I am not insulting you in any way. I said it is your right as a parent. That I do not have to agree. how is that an insult? I am sure there are things I do you may not agree on. I have tattoos also you are missing the point. You do not have to explain it is your choice.
Maybe they would have more time IF Ashley wasn't controlling him? "
My God, get over this "Ashley is controlling him" crap.
He is a teenage boy. All normal teenage boys frequently listen to their girlfriend and frequently ignore their parents.
All normal, red-blooded teenage boys are "whipped" by the...very personal attributes...of whoever they're dating, whether they're abstinent or not.
I don't know any of you guys personally, but making this boy's girlfriend out to be a female cross between Svengali and Voldemort just makes you all look like idiots.
Sure, you have reasons to worry about Alex and want to get him to sobriety. *Fine*.
When that kid turns 18, you are going to have to deal with everyone who completely disagrees with how you are dealing with him helping him get enough independence from you, if he wants it, to make his own choices.
Like it or not, on his 18th birthday, your coercive power is over.
You don't have the power or luxury of saying, "It's my kid, I'll raise him however I think best, dammit! Mind your own damned business!"
Your kid isn't a kid anymore. Six months is long enough to really harm your child, but it isn't long enough to, "Raise my kid however I think best, dammit!"
You have no rational choice but to open up to the larger community and the society you live in.
You're not "running out of time." You've already run out. The coercive approach you're taking is a lousy choice. You have a lot of other, better choices available. You're going to either end up like Ginger's mom--so brainwashed and convinced in the sanctity of The Program that you are totally estranged from your kid, or looking back on putting your kid in the Program as the worst decision of your life.
For you and your relationship with Alex, if you don't move him to a three month or less reputable drug rehab or bring him home, this is all going to end badly.
I believe you love your kid and mean well, but you've made a bad choice.
Julie
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 08:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 13:53:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Of course that is how you would see it. It couldn't be Ashley's mom isn't telling the truth or easily manipulated by the kids. why? Because she isn't the parent with the kid in a place you don't like. If Ashley's mom says it it must be true. Because you know her so well. Please people open your eyes.
Or maybe Ashley's mom isn't so easily manipulated. Maybe Alex has (had) some idea what was best for himself. This is not a toddler we're talking about. This is a young man who, in a few short months, will be a legal adult.
Maybe it's Jackie who's being manipulated. He's in a place that 'you don't like?' Lady, take a step back. WHY is it that so many people who have had dealings with WWASP are so vehemently opposed to it? What, you do like them? Do you have any idea what they do? Or do you, like Jackie, just flippantly disregard as manipulation anything that threatens your pretty idea of what's going on here?
It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 08:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 14:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
Just as you could say it was wrong of Jacki to have sent alex there. I could say it is wrong that you let and pay for you daughter to dress and dye her hair, tattoo her body like that.
Please! If you don't have an argument, just admit it. You can't POSSIBLY believe this is a fair comparison!
Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
I know lawyers have to be paid, but Ginger probably has enough information from you to be able to substantiate who you are when you post. That means when Alex is coming up on his 18th birthday, you can come on here and ask for donations to his legal defense fund.
Wait a second! No, I can tell which ISP (Internet Service Provider, as in AOL or Comcast or RoadRunner or what have you) and I can see which individual IP address a post is coming from. I don't get names and addresses. That's confidential information held by the ISP. They only release that if they absolutely have to under court order or some such. There are NO GROUNDS in this situation (as in most) for that sort of thing. I just don't want anybody to get overly creeped out.
I don't release that little bit of info I have, either. Who the hell would want to post on a site where hackers could easily gain access to that? Nobody worth talking to.
And ya'll ARE worth talking to! All of you.
Jackie, I especially want to extend a warm welcome to you. It does take some moxie and resolve for you to come over here and to consider criticizm of your parental decisions.
There's merit to that criticizm in this case. Please get that kid the hell away from the crazy cult people ASAP! And, on a more personal note as another mother, don't ever believe even for a moment any word or deed that makes you think your son doesn't love you. Even if we want to, it's as impossible to not love one's parents as it is to not love your children.
Don't sweat the- Petty Things
Don't pet the- Sweaty Things
Water what you want to grow.
--Curiosity
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 08:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:53:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Maybe they would have more time IF Ashley wasn't controlling him?
Look, now that's just silly! Ashley is an 18yo girl not some maniacal wizard with magical powers to control others.
I'll confess to making the same mistake, though. A lot of the problems between us and our daughter a few years back were our fault. That's a fact. At the time, though, noooooo, it couldn't POSSIBLY be us! Why, we're ... whatever. In our minds, it was ALL about this bad boyfriend controling her.
I just don't get the sense that this is an accurate assessment of the situation.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 08:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 16:14:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"I must say that there was miscommunication on both sides. Everyone wanted what they wanted and we all lost, especially Alex. I hope that something can be worked out between both Ashley and the Azzopardi's before Alex comes home. Maybe we can concentrate on that. "
I'd worry about getting Alex home safe and sound first. Work out the deal w/ the potential future ex inlaws later.
I think you're seriously underestimating the risk here. It's not just that SCL sucks experientially. It's extremely dangerous, especially to someone who's already emotionally and mentally fragged out.
I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
Post by: Antigen on January 09, 2006, 09:08:00 PM
Ya'll, please don't take any too-good-to-be-true offers for help from this friendly stranger. Evidently, he or she is not allowed direct, unsupervised communication w/ their kid either.
WWASP is not the only, maybe not even the worst scam for troubled parents.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
Post by: Shlee on January 09, 2006, 09:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:45:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
" Sorry forgot to sign in. I have never tried to hide who I was. I talked about my daughter. Things I new that you would know. Sorry I am not the best speller but I will get over it. So dose /does it make you feel big and bad to threaten that you have my ip address should I put cameras around my house so my car and house doesn't get vandalized. The point that you would try to find out who I was. Is a bit disturbing. This is my point exactly you try to scare people. so why would they listen or want their child around you? I have said many times this is my opinion or understanding and that a lot of emotions for every one was happening. Things were said earlier on that was done in a finger pointing way. Then I decided to try and talk about things that may have misunderstood on both sides. Trying to help. Finger pointing wasn't. You have no idea unless you found away to listen to my phone conversations and have put a bug on me so you can hear everything I say what I am doing about it. Do you think the things you have said are going to make Alex happy?"
It's unfortunate that you twisted my words around and took it as a threat. I was not threatening anyone at all, I was just stating that no one should hide behind Anon. posts anymore, especially if you have such strong opinions. I wasn't finger pointing in any way, just stating facts. And do you honestly think Alex wouldn't like anything we're syaing on his behalf. I don't think he would appreciate the constant lies and bashing of my family and I and our cause of helping him. Or is that side of it not being told? Also, I am really tired of being accused of the vandalism that occured. I had no part in it and was quite shocked to have the police calling my cell phone when I was on my way to work that morning. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that I did it? No, no you do not and your assumptions are childish.
Post by: Mykidsmom on January 09, 2006, 11:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 18:08:00, Antigen wrote:
""Mykidsmom", if you want to troll for referals, buy a goddamned Google ad!
Ya'll, please don't take any too-good-to-be-true offers for help from this friendly stranger. Evidently, he or she is not allowed direct, unsupervised communication w/ their kid either.
WWASP is not the only, maybe not even the worst scam for troubled parents.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
"
Not trolling for referrals -- the I was offering an alternative. Is it only your point of view that is welcome here? I thought this was a place to give and get information.
It was on this site that I got the information that kept me from sending my kid to a WWASP program in the first place.
It was this site that steered me away from Discovery Academy, Provo Canyon School, etc.. etc..as well any type of level or behavior modification plan.
I have no vested interest other than from what I have heard SCL is a dangerous place especially for a younng person who is suicidal. Someone with those kind of problems should be evaluated in a hospital not a boarding school.
Give me a break here. I am genuine -- really and for the most part I'm totally on your side.
And for your information I can visit my child whenever I want with no advanced notice. I can just show up and spend the day with him -- get your facts straight before you lump me in with everyone else -- I'm not stupid.
There are a few good places out there.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 09, 2006, 11:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-09 17:56:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-09 15:53:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Maybe they would have more time IF Ashley wasn't controlling him?
Look, now that's just silly! Ashley is an 18yo girl not some maniacal wizard with magical powers to control others.
I'll confess to making the same mistake, though. A lot of the problems between us and our daughter a few years back were our fault. That's a fact. At the time, though, noooooo, it couldn't POSSIBLY be us! Why, we're ... whatever. In our minds, it was ALL about this bad boyfriend controling her.
I just don't get the sense that this is an accurate assessment of the situation.Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
"
I am not good at explaining what I am trying to say I guess. I said she is more controlling in the relationship, and he is more egger to please. I didn't say this is abnormal. In some relationships it could be flip where the guy is more controlling then the girl. He was going to go to the 3 month program. The brochures may have said 12 month but Jacki talk to someone there and they said they had a 3 month program maybe some how that got missed in translation between alex and them. [ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-01-09 21:30 ]
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 12:38:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 01:04:00 AM
Also, I am glad that a doctor is supervising Alex. I think this will prevent the staff from roughing him up during restraints, if they know that he's being seen by a physician regularly. Unfortunately, there's no quick test to check for mental abuse or PTSD symptoms that Alex may experience now or at a later time.
I am very glad to hear that the aunts are so involved and that the parents are willing to look into other facilities. I'm in my 20's myself and wouldn't wish a program on anyone, especially SCL or TB. Pulling Alex from the program would be a tremendous way to show him that he is cared for and supported. Only someone who's lived with the hell of being confined in a program can fully understand how badly everyone in there wants to go somewhere safer and fairer. It was what we all dreamed and prayed for each day. We all wanted to be rescued. I really hope that his family gives him that ASAP.
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 03:08:00 AM
Seriously. I'm not accusing you of lying. I just don't know what it means. How does that work?
About the lies, well there were some friggin' whoppers in this thread earlier. Remember the dope dealing friend who turned out to be a myspace 'friend' and local rock star? The rumors about heroin? Oh yeah, there was the standard deception that there were all these random people who all knew all the hard facts about everybdy involved and they were all posting from the only library in the Detroit area served by a private ISP? There was more. You can go back and look if you want to.
I guarantee you guys are not getting the whole or accurate story. How do I know that? I'm 40. I have kids, teenagers, a grown one and of course all their friends and all their drama-even baby mama drama once in awhile. You guys are at war and the truth is always the first casualty. WWASP is just the war profiteer in all this. The sooner ya'll wise up to that, the better for everyone.
Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 03:14:00 AM
THAT is why I'm less than fully impressed w/ your objectivity, especially wrt the character assesment of teenaged kids.
Give to every other human being every right that you claim for yourself - that is my doctrine.
--Thomas Paine
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 09:35:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 10, 2006, 11:33:00 AM
I've always been a big believer in doing therapy from home, but everybody is different. Sometimes, kids do need to receive more intense therapy. As long as it is therapy, and not abuse. This behaivor modification stuff makes me want to puke!
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 11:47:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:33:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Has anyone been able to recommend another place for Alex? One that isn't affiliated with WWASP (which can be a little difficult these days!!!)?
I've always been a big believer in doing therapy from home, but everybody is different. Sometimes, kids do need to receive more intense therapy. As long as it is therapy, and not abuse. This behaivor modification stuff makes me want to puke!"
From what I understand in reading back, there was a local treatment facility he was looking into, but it sounds as if his family were not interested in pursuing that. Other than that, it doesn't seem like there has been any mentioned. There was mention of moving him to another facility or psychiatric center, but no more information on that either. Good question.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 11:49:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 11:55:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 12:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 06:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To Alex's mom and aunts. Read here if it helps you keep up with what your opposition is doing to undermind the help you are trying to get Alex. Don't post here. Don't let the few people that come here tear your life up more. I've been where you are. I've been glued to this place and in tears over it. People come here because they are angry or hurt. Focus on Alex, the help he needs, and leave this place for the hurt and the angry. Don't open yourself up to the ridicule of strangers. Don't waste your time defending what you are trying to do. Spend the time researching another place for Alex or other options. If you will stop defending and posting, these people will tire of patting each other on the back and the drama will rest some. Remember, time is on your side. YOU be faithful to Alex. Look to his best interests the best way you can. DON'T let strangers tear you up. The families that know you and the situation and are still oposing you are honestly trying to help, but there is no way they can understand the pressure and pain you are going thru. Time will prove that Alex left no other immediate options. The people on this site, once they learn that Alex and Ashley behave in the manner the manner you know they do, well, Alex and Ashley's name will vanish from fornits because no one here wants to hear that the kids were really responsible for pushing the parents to drastic measures. PLEASE...if something in your gut tells you there is a problem at SCL, not something on this site, but maybe at Isaac or something from your pastor, move him. There are other places, other options. Keep looking. "
Please if you know of other places. Email me at [email protected]. We are tiring to find a better place but nobody has given us any info we are searching
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 12:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:49:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"You may think we are lying about our kids being on the computer. That is your choice. I have only posted from my home computer and this one at work. Detroit library? your guess is as good as mine. You have to remember she posted this site all over myspace and vampire freaks. It is going around the school could she have kids not fond of her? I am sure, it is very rare that someone in high school is loved by everyone there. If my daughter who is on the computer around 4 hours a day had posted something I am unaware. I have not shared a lot of this with her. Could she have over heard me talking about this site? Probably. Is she smart enough to check my history and find the site? Chances are yes. I do feel Ashley is smart. Dose/does that mean she is not going to make mistakes? No. Do I believe her hart is in the right place to direct us to this information? Yes. It would be nice for her and her family to notice and find a little comforting that we are here reading and giving info to Jacki. That I am sharing info with them, that they would not get any other way. I could have stopped reading along time ago. After being called a troll and program parent all types of things when all I was trying to do is get info. In a letter Alex said to his mom. I wish you and Ashley could have come to some agreement of what to do with me. As a mom I feel like.. how should I say this.. guess it doesn't matter someone will turn it around. Basically you 2 are not married you are kids they should not have to come to an agreement with you. On the other hand if you read into what Alex is saying in my opinion He wants his mom and Ashley in is life. When he gets home is this something you are willing to give him if he wants it? As everyone has seen when I used an example that involved the way Ashley's mom is raising her daughter they took offense. So why is it wrong for Jacki to feel the same. If you really knew me you would know I except people for who they are if they are nice to me I could care less how they look. My niece is goth my nephew Alex as you know is also. I have nothing against tattoos I have them. It was all said to show that it made you feel insulted. Maybe now you can open your mind a little bigger and see that is maybe how Jacki felt. I can not speak for her but with this situation I know I would have felt insulted. In the beginning there was a lot of finger pointing I admitted to that. That is when emotions were running there highest. You say we bashed her. Well what about Ashley saying he got vicodin and pot from his mom. Do we really know this to be true or could she just have said this so people would look down on his mom even more? That is up to whoever reads it and what the choose to believe. The fact that his father spent no time with him. Lets look back over his life. His mother or father or both were always at his hockey games supporting him. His father and him spent many father son hours in the garage working on sleds, talking and bonding. Alex was the only teenager at the guys snowmobile trips with my husband and his father. Yes Joe is very busy working everyday so his family has food clothing and a decent life. But he did make the time to do these things with all 4 of his children together and separate. His mother bought him and herself dirt bikes so they had something they could do together and the jet ski. The problem here is in the last year maybe even year and a half he started not wanted to do these things he would have rather been with his friend. Which isn't abnormal for any kid after they get there license. So I guess you would have only seen or heard of the times he was more involved in his friends and as we know now drugs. The only reason I am still here is for Alex. If I didn't care about his feelings would I tell you that in a letter he said to you if he would have known he was leaving he would have gotten you a kitten to keep you company. That he loves you will be out soon. That SCL is a babysitting facility for overly hyper kids. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings if they are not coming out in the right order or right I am sorry. Sitting at work typing this instead of my job could get me fired."
I do appreciate all you are doing. Yes, in the beginning there was too much anger. I understand this. All Ashley really wanted was to be able to have some sort of communication with Alex by letter, she was denied this. I think this probably would have made them both more accepting of what was done with him. Unfortunately, we can not go back in time and change things that were said. Like you said, emotions were running at an all time high. If I ever said anything to insult Jacki, I am very sorry. From the beginning, I only disagreed with how this situation was handled and was hoping for some other alternative for everybodies sake. Yes, Ashley is very upset over all of this, and we are doing everything we can to help her through all of this. If there is any way you can get a message to Alex, please do. Let him know she is here for him and loves him very much. I am also not very good at typing out what I am thinking, and am also doing this at work.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 12:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]), if you would like to talk with me off the forum. Leslie
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 12:37:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 09:37:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Is this the place that is out patient? They are looking for a in patient One with communication where they can visit when ever. What ever there reason please help with in patient programs. My email address is posted feel free to contact me that way if you would like."
They have both inpatient and outpatient. I sent you an email regarding it. The inpatient program is called residential program. Alex just wanted to go outpatient so he could try to graduate in June. I am sure he would qualify for inpatient. They will never know unless they call and check it out.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 01:01:00 PM
I understand why they want inpatient for Alex. On a whole bunch of levels.
I am in my mid-40s and almost killed myself with cocaine 20+ years ago.
The only program that worked for me was intensive out-patient. (5 days a week, 4 hours a day, plus meetings on the other 2 days.) This is one of the problems with these schools. There is no integration of skills or resistance in the real world.
I hope you find a short-term inpatient for Alex, and I understand the desire to remove him from his surroundings and peers for a period of time. However, I truly believe that the only way to successfully overcome an addiction problem is to fight it daily in the context in which you must overcome it.
Somewhere it says that Alex has been clean since November 9th. If that is truly the case, he is well on his way through detox.
My heart goes out to all of you and I hope that a placement is found for Alex close to home. If it is inpatient, I hope there is a very serious aftercare program.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 01:08:00 PM
Please call me tonight after 5. Dave erased your # from caller ID.
Thank you for all info given so far. I will read and pass on the info on Maple Grove. Any other places please email.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 10, 2006, 01:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 00:08:00, Antigen wrote:Alex admitted to the heroin use himself.
"How do you have doctors 'here' keeping an eye on a kid who's held incommunicado out in Montana?
Seriously. I'm not accusing you of lying. I just don't know what it means. How does that work?
About the lies, well there were some friggin' whoppers in this thread earlier. Remember the dope dealing friend who turned out to be a myspace 'friend' and local rock star? The rumors about heroin? Oh yeah, there was the standard deception that there were all these random people who all knew all the hard facts about everybdy involved and they were all posting from the only library in the Detroit area served by a private ISP? There was more. You can go back and look if you want to.
I guarantee you guys are not getting the whole or accurate story. How do I know that? I'm 40. I have kids, teenagers, a grown one and of course all their friends and all their drama-even baby mama drama once in awhile. You guys are at war and the truth is always the first casualty. WWASP is just the war profiteer in all this. The sooner ya'll wise up to that, the better for everyone.Don't laugh when you leave this courtroom, thinking you have beat the system because you have looked these things up yourself. We are going to get you down the road.
Washington Superior CourtJudge Rebecca Baker
"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 10, 2006, 01:52:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 06:35:00, Anonymous wrote:This is why Jacki does not read. This is also why I didnt want to post either. I have never said anything bad about Ashley here. I now have a screen name so that there is no mix up. We as aunts do not have the power to remove Alex. He is being supervised by an outside Dr. The family is paying to fly him in weekly. He had no connection to this school. I pray daily that all will come out of this.
"To Alex's mom and aunts. Read here if it helps you keep up with what your opposition is doing to undermind the help you are trying to get Alex. Don't post here. Don't let the few people that come here tear your life up more. I've been where you are. I've been glued to this place and in tears over it. People come here because they are angry or hurt. Focus on Alex, the help he needs, and leave this place for the hurt and the angry. Don't open yourself up to the ridicule of strangers. Don't waste your time defending what you are trying to do. Spend the time researching another place for Alex or other options. If you will stop defending and posting, these people will tire of patting each other on the back and the drama will rest some. Remember, time is on your side. YOU be faithful to Alex. Look to his best interests the best way you can. DON'T let strangers tear you up. The families that know you and the situation and are still oposing you are honestly trying to help, but there is no way they can understand the pressure and pain you are going thru. Time will prove that Alex left no other immediate options. The people on this site, once they learn that Alex and Ashley behave in the manner the manner you know they do, well, Alex and Ashley's name will vanish from fornits because no one here wants to hear that the kids were really responsible for pushing the parents to drastic measures. PLEASE...if something in your gut tells you there is a problem at SCL, not something on this site, but maybe at Isaac or something from your pastor, move him. There are other places, other options. Keep looking. "
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 10, 2006, 02:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 09:14:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"QuoteFinally, some progress. Thank You.
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected]), if you would like to talk with me off the forum. Leslie"
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 02:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:33:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Has anyone been able to recommend another place for Alex? One that isn't affiliated with WWASP (which can be a little difficult these days!!!)?
I've always been a big believer in doing therapy from home, but everybody is different. Sometimes, kids do need to receive more intense therapy. As long as it is therapy, and not abuse. This behaivor modification stuff makes me want to puke!"
I have been asking off and on for awhile I believe it is about 15 pages back. We hear all the bad. Now all this forum needs is some alternative programs for parents who want there child placed somewhere instead of allowing them to run the streets and figure it out on there own.
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 02:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] They want to get him out ASAP but feel they need to find a place to put him where they can communicate with him. And he can get the treatment he wants and needs. Ashley Jacki hates that you and Alex and her cant talk she is scared and confused that is what this place and situation has done to her."
What about the local place where he wanted to go?
And about the post above that (about lying) I really was just trying, and failing misserably evidently, to explaint what Ashley was talking about. Not trying to accuse anybody. Just trying to explain that, well, from here? It sure looks like ya'll are over reacting to normal, if often upsetting, teen angst.
[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 02:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 09:07:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Please if you know of other places. Email me at [email protected]. We are tiring to find a better place but nobody has given us any info we are searching"
No legitimate treatment provider encourages their patients' families to go recruiting. This person you're talking to has been posting here for quite some time. I dont' know if her kid is back from wherever she sent them or not. I just know they'll drop into any old coversation about any old kid in any old placement and say basically the same damned thing.
Commitment letter? Doesn't that get your hackles up just a tad? How is it therapeutic for these parents to join in this sort of deception? And what it if is as bad as they say for the kid? How do you suppose he'd take it? It's not asif these kids are allowed to talk freely and explain to the new guy how this works. This could be extremely devistating.
If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 10, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 02:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 10:47:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Alex admitted to the heroin use himself."
Well, I sort of have to take that with a grain of salt. Kids often overstate their exploits just to impress. Kids under coercion will admit to any damned thing. It takes some time to develop an opiate dependency. Having tried heroin is not a treatable disease.
Anyway, if this young man has looked into that local place and he WANTs to go there, then by all means go there. But please, please try and keep your sister (in law?) tethered to reality on the point of proper dx and professional recomendations. She may be thoroughly convinced that her kid needs whatever she's seen advertised wherever. What do you do with a family member like that who insists on surgery when the doctors all agree it's not indicated?
It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
Post by: 69 on January 10, 2006, 02:51:00 PM
Quote
We hear all the bad. Now all this forum needs is some alternative programs for parents who want there child placed somewhere instead of allowing them to run the streets and figure it out on there own.
They shouldn't be looking for another program, they should be looking for treatment. If the teen truly has a drug problem, an in patient psychiatric drug rehab/therapy setting would be perfectly appropriate. If it's just a behavioral or light drug use (marijuana, alcohol) then the detox time is probably unnecessary and the respective out-patient program at the same facility would apply. Usually after in-patient you transfer to the outpatient for transition. These are covered my most med insurers. I found this type of program helpful, and never felt my rights were infringed upon. The treatment is not forced. Most importantly, the out-patient is very effective at helping you balance your normal life with treatment. Otherwise, if you escape into a bubble world program camp, it's easy to change while locked up away from temptaion, but the failure rate is depressingly high with this sort of treatment upon return. Outpatient is much more effective.
Note: these places do not advertise on the internet, and that is why nobody is giving out names. Go to your local hospital for a referal to the closest psychiatric setting if you need. The last people you'd want to ask is a bunch of anonymous stranger on the internet! :wink: Good luck.
G: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-10 12:06 ]
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 02:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] They want to get him out ASAP but feel they need to find a place to put him where they can communicate with him. And he can get the treatment he wants and needs. Ashley Jacki hates that you and Alex and her cant talk she is scared and confused that is what this place and situation has done to her."
What about the local place where he wanted to go?
And about the post above that (about lying) I really was just trying, and failing misserably evidently, to explaint what Ashley was talking about. Not trying to accuse anybody. Just trying to explain that, well, from here? It sure looks like ya'll are over reacting to normal, if often upsetting, teen angst.[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Jacki called and they said they don't take 17 year old for the in patient program.
Post by: Antigen on January 10, 2006, 02:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:09:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
I have been asking off and on for awhile I believe it is about 15 pages back. We hear all the bad. Now all this forum needs is some alternative programs for parents who want there child placed somewhere instead of allowing them to run the streets and figure it out on there own."
Well, there are only two types of people who will make program recomendations:
- Legitimate professionals who have examined the prospective patient and taken the time and effort to assess the whole situation.
- Desperate or deluded cult followers who are so thoroughly convinced of the goodness and rightness of their particular group that they don't even recognize the distinction between professional assessment and plain out gossip.
I won't recomend a placement because I'm not a professional in that field and I've never even met the prospective patient in question. I don't think any responsible person in my situation would dare make any such recomendation. Do you???
I do feel confident, however, both as a mother AND formerly as chattel to this industry in recomending that you honor this kid's wishes; that any placement or treatment whatever be VOLUNTARY! That alone makes ALL the difference in the world.
There go the people. I must follow them for I am their leader.
--Alexandre Ledru-Rollin
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 03:01:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 03:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:51:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"QuoteWe hear all the bad. Now all this forum needs is some alternative programs for parents who want there child placed somewhere instead of allowing them to run the streets and figure it out on there own.
They shouldn't be looking for another program, they should be looking for treatment. If the teen truly has a drug problem, an in patient psychiatric drug rehab/therapy setting would be perfectly appropriate. If it's just a behavioral or light drug use (marijuana, alcohol) then the detox time is probably unnecessary and the respective out-patient program at the same facility would apply. Usually after in-patient you transfer to the outpatient for transition. These are covered my most med insurers. I found this type of program helpful, and never felt my rights were infringed upon. The treatment is not forced. Most importantly, the out-patient is very effective at helping you balance your normal life with treatment. Otherwise, if you escape into a bubble world program camp, it's easy to change while locked up away from temptaion, but the failure rate is depressingly high with this sort of treatment upon return. Outpatient is much more effective.
Note: these places do not advertise on the internet, and that is why nobody is giving out names. Go to your local hospital for a referal to the closest psychiatric setting if you need. The last people you'd want to ask is a bunch of anonymous stranger on the internet! :wink: Good luck.G: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"[ This Message was edited by: Exit Plan on 2006-01-10 11:52 ]"
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
We are looking for a treatment facility not a behavioral program. I will let them know you feel Outpatient is much more effective. I would just like to see him out of where he is. I would take an inpatient drug rehab over SCL
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 03:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:58:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] They want to get him out ASAP but feel they need to find a place to put him where they can communicate with him. And he can get the treatment he wants and needs. Ashley Jacki hates that you and Alex and her cant talk she is scared and confused that is what this place and situation has done to her."
What about the local place where he wanted to go?
And about the post above that (about lying) I really was just trying, and failing misserably evidently, to explaint what Ashley was talking about. Not trying to accuse anybody. Just trying to explain that, well, from here? It sure looks like ya'll are over reacting to normal, if often upsetting, teen angst.[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Jacki called and they said they don't take 17 year old for the in patient program."
Why don't they consider the intensive outpatient treatment for him until he turns 18, at that time if he still needs further treatment then go with the inpatient. The outpatient program is very effective from what I have been told. Remember, Alex agreed to that, which makes it even more effective. I have to believe this would be so much better for him than where he is right now.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 10, 2006, 03:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 12:06:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:What would be even better would be if Ashley agreed he needed treatment and would remain sober with him. That may make all the difference in the world to his recovery.
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:58:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] They want to get him out ASAP but feel they need to find a place to put him where they can communicate with him. And he can get the treatment he wants and needs. Ashley Jacki hates that you and Alex and her cant talk she is scared and confused that is what this place and situation has done to her."
What about the local place where he wanted to go?
And about the post above that (about lying) I really was just trying, and failing misserably evidently, to explaint what Ashley was talking about. Not trying to accuse anybody. Just trying to explain that, well, from here? It sure looks like ya'll are over reacting to normal, if often upsetting, teen angst.[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Jacki called and they said they don't take 17 year old for the in patient program."
Why don't they consider the intensive outpatient treatment for him until he turns 18, at that time if he still needs further treatment then go with the inpatient. The outpatient program is very effective from what I have been told. Remember, Alex agreed to that, which makes it even more effective. I have to believe this would be so much better for him than where he is right now."
Post by: Shlee on January 10, 2006, 03:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 12:32:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"QuoteWhat would be even better would be if Ashley agreed he needed treatment and would remain sober with him. That may make all the difference in the world to his recovery."
On 2006-01-10 12:06:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:58:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] They want to get him out ASAP but feel they need to find a place to put him where they can communicate with him. And he can get the treatment he wants and needs. Ashley Jacki hates that you and Alex and her cant talk she is scared and confused that is what this place and situation has done to her."
What about the local place where he wanted to go?
And about the post above that (about lying) I really was just trying, and failing misserably evidently, to explaint what Ashley was talking about. Not trying to accuse anybody. Just trying to explain that, well, from here? It sure looks like ya'll are over reacting to normal, if often upsetting, teen angst.[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Jacki called and they said they don't take 17 year old for the in patient program."
Why don't they consider the intensive outpatient treatment for him until he turns 18, at that time if he still needs further treatment then go with the inpatient. The outpatient program is very effective from what I have been told. Remember, Alex agreed to that, which makes it even more effective. I have to believe this would be so much better for him than where he is right now."
I have never denied he needed treatment. When we all got caught, the knowledge I had of his drug use didn't compare to what was actually going on. I was the one, when he was still here, that he called to help him through a rough moment he may have had and talk him out of doing something stupid. I was all for any kind of rehab he needed. I was okay with the choice of a school, until we started to do research and cut through all the glorified ads. I want him to get help, but the help he wants and needs.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 03:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 12:32:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"QuoteWhat would be even better would be if Ashley agreed he needed treatment and would remain sober with him. That may make all the difference in the world to his recovery."
On 2006-01-10 12:06:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:58:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 11:33:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 08:55:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I have just spoke to Jacki. She is very upset. She hates having no contact with her son. She had to do her commitment letter and it killed her because she isn't committed to making him finish the program but he now will think she is. Please anyone with another facility we could look into please email [email protected] They want to get him out ASAP but feel they need to find a place to put him where they can communicate with him. And he can get the treatment he wants and needs. Ashley Jacki hates that you and Alex and her cant talk she is scared and confused that is what this place and situation has done to her."
What about the local place where he wanted to go?
And about the post above that (about lying) I really was just trying, and failing misserably evidently, to explaint what Ashley was talking about. Not trying to accuse anybody. Just trying to explain that, well, from here? It sure looks like ya'll are over reacting to normal, if often upsetting, teen angst.[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
"
Jacki called and they said they don't take 17 year old for the in patient program."
Why don't they consider the intensive outpatient treatment for him until he turns 18, at that time if he still needs further treatment then go with the inpatient. The outpatient program is very effective from what I have been told. Remember, Alex agreed to that, which makes it even more effective. I have to believe this would be so much better for him than where he is right now."
Ashley has agreed that he needs treatment, she has not used any drugs since all of this has happened. I promise you that. She wants the best for Alex. If they would take her as an outpatient, hell, I would even have her go too.
I don't know if she would qualify, but she certainly would be able to go to the counseling sessions with him if they offer ones for friends/loved ones. I believe that do. I know I went with my husband before we were even married.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 04:28:00 PM
Shelly I am home now give me a call
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 04:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 13:28:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"It is not my place again to tell them to put him in a out patient program. I know many people who have been in 30 day programs they are not abusive. I believe at this point we should be happy that he will be out of SCL soon. I don't believe we need to set up Ashley going to meetings with him. That all will fall into place. I am surprised that you haven't had her put in the out patient program you speak of already. The main difference about what you are doing with Ashley is nobody really knows. Will Alex be safe around her? When it came to Alex it was splattered all over the net. Not saying this in a bad way it is something that is just on my mind because it doesn't sound like she has been getting any treatment. It would be a shame for Alex to go through all this to end up back on drugs. I know most people have a relapse in my experience it happens when they get around old friend that haven't stopped.
Shelly I am home now give me a call"
Ashley is going to counseling, and random drug testing. Maybe I am naive, but I believe her when she tells us that she was not using as frequently as you believe. She is back in school, doing well and applying herself. She is working, and gives me all of her paychecks to save for her. She has very limited contact with any of her old friends, I can not keep her from talking to them in school. She has been very open to everything we are doing, and is not fighting us. She is hoping to get into College for Creative Studies, so she has been preparing her portfolio for admissions. She realizes she made some very bad judgements, but knows now that her future is the most important, and at this time she wants Alex to be a part of that. I do not believe she would do anything to hurt his recovery process, only everthing she can to help him. She hasn't been placed in any treatment program as thus far she has made a great effort to prove to us she is changing. If this changes, trust me, I know the first place I will be calling. If you want to know anything else, please, just ask. I am just glad we are finally communicating instead of fighting.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 07:03:00 PM
When they got busted Jacki realized he needed Ashley to talk to that is why Jacki and Joe aloud them to see each other. It just spun out of control.
They have been reading the helpful things that is being sent to them. I want to thank WWFSMD and Exit Plan. In the beginning you may not have understood a few things but I think as you learned more maybe you seen that I was here to help you gave me very helpful information. There was a few ANON also. I think it was WWFSMD that said read through and ignore the unhelpful things, and get a screen name. My sister was unable to do that and I understand why. It was hard for me also.
I hope we all can open our minds and realize what everyone is going through. When they sent him there they were under the impression that this place had everything he needed including school, like he wanted.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 07:40:00 PM
Like everyone says, the family ought to be able to communicate. If she could drop in a few times a week for family therapy and visits, that would really help his treatment. When someone goes into therapy for drugs they often say, this is a family problem and the whole family needs therapy to deal with other issues. This is essential to creating a home environment where the drug user can stay sober.
Here's a unique idea- what if you hired Alex an adult "babysitter" of sorts during all unsupervised hours? It could be an older sibling, responsible family member, whatever. This would still be cheaper than SCL. Just talk to Alex about it, maybe let him help pick the person, and explain that during the possible transition phase from SCL into treatment that everyone wants to make sure he maintains his sobriety and stays safe. Also, maybe it would also be easier for Ashley to visit with Alex if a neutral person was around at first, rather than family, since it seems you all might still be pretty emotional under the circumstances.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 07:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's a unique idea- what if you hired Alex an adult "babysitter" of sorts during all unsupervised hours? It could be an older sibling, responsible family member, whatever. This would still be cheaper than SCL. Just talk to Alex about it, maybe let him help pick the person, and explain that during the possible transition phase from SCL into treatment that everyone wants to make sure he maintains his sobriety and stays safe. Also, maybe it would also be easier for Ashley to visit with Alex if a neutral person was around at first, rather than family, since it seems you all might still be pretty emotional under the circumstances."
I think the adult babysitter or companion is a great idea -- I never really thought of that before. That is what people need to hear is good creative advice not bashing :tup:
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 08:18:00 PM
Post by: WWFSMD on January 10, 2006, 08:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:03:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
I think it was WWFSMD that said read through and ignore the unhelpful things, and get a screen name.
I said ignore the childish remarks, but don't mistake me for saying to disregard angry posters. They've earned the right to that anger. They're no longer expected to just sit quietly by while all the insanity swirls around them.
I'm also not convinced at all that Alex is in any major, life-threatening trouble here. I know the knee-jerk reaction from most parents is to really freak out when they find out their kids are experimenting in drugs or if there is an abrupt change in personality and friends but its just dead wrong IMO. Most kids find their own way. So many parents seem to be looking for a way to control their kids. I've seen it posted here and other sites numerous times. "Oh, they're almost 18? Better hurry up, you don't have much time left" etc. At a time in their lives when its NORMAL for them to rebell, NORMAL for them to scare the life out of us, NORMAL to make impulsive, irrational and sometimes dangerous decisions, people are trying to control them, put some bubble around them until the parents feel they're "wise enough" to handle life. They're not gonna get wise until they have LIFE EXPERIENCE. That's not what happens when you disrupt the natural process of breaking away, finding thier own identity and autonomy. That process gets stunted or stifled completely. While I obviously understand the desire to protect our kids from harm, self inflicted and otherwise, ultimately we can't. They have to be able to protect themselves, they have to be able to figure out what's important to them and they are NOT going to learn that sitting in some room being force-fed with bullshit about having a "drug problem" before they even hit 18. Things have just gotten ridiculous.
I'm glad to see that people are talking to each other, I really am. I hope that continues. I hope you still post or at least read here. If you do, be prepared to be challenged on some of your views. There's a wealth of information here if you look. I gotta say that it grinds my gears that Alex's mom "can't bear to read" here. I have the same reaction every time I hear someone say "oh, you don't know how hard this was for the parents to do". :roll: If she can't bear to read it, how must Alex feel having to live it?
They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
Post by: WWFSMD on January 10, 2006, 08:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's a unique idea- what if you hired Alex an adult "babysitter" of sorts during all unsupervised hours? It could be an older sibling, responsible family member, whatever. This would still be cheaper than SCL.
What??? :evil:
Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 08:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Thanks you. I will give the info to them so they have it to think about. They are making plans for his transition. I also Believe they need a family style therapist on top of drug therapy. I believe things are heading in the right direction. I have been given some resources and we are using them."
I just hope whatever they do decide to do for Alex that someone keeps us/Ashley updated. It would be very much appreciated if we were allowed to know where he is placed.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 08:40:00 PM
Everyone handles things different.
We all have been talking about and thinking how Alex feels. There is much more going on then what is posted here in the family.
Sorry it grinds your gears to hear someone say "oh, you don't know how hard this was for the parents to do this. It could have something to do with what you went through. I am sure you have heard it many times. That is why these places make billions.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 08:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:26:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:03:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
I think it was WWFSMD that said read through and ignore the unhelpful things, and get a screen name.
I said ignore the childish remarks, but don't mistake me for saying to disregard angry posters. They've earned the right to that anger. They're no longer expected to just sit quietly by while all the insanity swirls around them.
I'm also not convinced at all that Alex is in any major, life-threatening trouble here. I know the knee-jerk reaction from most parents is to really freak out when they find out their kids are experimenting in drugs or if there is an abrupt change in personality and friends but its just dead wrong IMO. Most kids find their own way. So many parents seem to be looking for a way to control their kids. I've seen it posted here and other sites numerous times. "Oh, they're almost 18? Better hurry up, you don't have much time left" etc. At a time in their lives when its NORMAL for them to rebell, NORMAL for them to scare the life out of us, NORMAL to make impulsive, irrational and sometimes dangerous decisions, people are trying to control them, put some bubble around them until the parents feel they're "wise enough" to handle life. They're not gonna get wise until they have LIFE EXPERIENCE. That's not what happens when you disrupt the natural process of breaking away, finding thier own identity and autonomy. That process gets stunted or stifled completely. While I obviously understand the desire to protect our kids from harm, self inflicted and otherwise, ultimately we can't. They have to be able to protect themselves, they have to be able to figure out what's important to them and they are NOT going to learn that sitting in some room being force-fed with bullshit about having a "drug problem" before they even hit 18. Things have just gotten ridiculous.
I'm glad to see that people are talking to each other, I really am. I hope that continues. I hope you still post or at least read here. If you do, be prepared to be challenged on some of your views. There's a wealth of information here if you look. I gotta say that it grinds my gears that Alex's mom "can't bear to read" here. I have the same reaction every time I hear someone say "oh, you don't know how hard this was for the parents to do". :roll: If she can't bear to read it, how must Alex feel having to live it?They know that it is human nature to take up causes whereby a man may oppress his neighbor, no matter how unjustly. ... Hence they have had no trouble in finding men who would preach the damnability and heresy of the new doctrine from the very pulpit.
--Galileo Galilei, Italian astronomer
"
Believe me, this has been an eye opening experience for us. We never even knew about these places until all of this. I am sure after all of this is over, we will continue to come on this forum and see if there has been any progress in the shutting down of these horrible so called "programs". It amazes me that they have been around for so many years, and with all of the negative feedback, they are still in existence.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 08:42:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 10, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:31:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's a unique idea- what if you hired Alex an adult "babysitter" of sorts during all unsupervised hours? It could be an older sibling, responsible family member, whatever. This would still be cheaper than SCL.
What??? :evil:Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
"
:lol: they had good intentions
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 10, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:42:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I will do my best. I do understand she loves him and he loves her."
Thanks.
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2006, 10:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:43:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:31:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's a unique idea- what if you hired Alex an adult "babysitter" of sorts during all unsupervised hours? It could be an older sibling, responsible family member, whatever. This would still be cheaper than SCL.
What??? :evil:Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
"
:lol: they had good intentions"
I'm the one who suggested it, and I really did have good intentions. I think I could have explained my rationale better. What I meant to say is that I think it would be best, in my opinion, to get him out of SCL ASAP whether or not they've found another program for him to enter just yet. And, yes, that they could arrange to have him supervised with dignity. If it was a family member, he could go to the mall, the movies, talk on the phone, get on the internet, but have someone who cares present so that he can't use drugs. That way he wouldn't be belittled, restrained, etc. I agree that this is not a long term solution- no way. I was just trying to be creative and thought the parents might find this acceptable compared with what it sounds like is their nightmare- that he'll come home and use drugs because he hasn't received worthwhile treatment yet.
Post by: Shlee on January 10, 2006, 11:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-10 19:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:43:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 17:31:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-10 16:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
Here's a unique idea- what if you hired Alex an adult "babysitter" of sorts during all unsupervised hours? It could be an older sibling, responsible family member, whatever. This would still be cheaper than SCL.
What??? :evil:Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
"
:lol: they had good intentions"
I'm the one who suggested it, and I really did have good intentions. I think I could have explained my rationale better. What I meant to say is that I think it would be best, in my opinion, to get him out of SCL ASAP whether or not they've found another program for him to enter just yet. And, yes, that they could arrange to have him supervised with dignity. If it was a family member, he could go to the mall, the movies, talk on the phone, get on the internet, but have someone who cares present so that he can't use drugs. That way he wouldn't be belittled, restrained, etc. I agree that this is not a long term solution- no way. I was just trying to be creative and thought the parents might find this acceptable compared with what it sounds like is their nightmare- that he'll come home and use drugs because he hasn't received worthwhile treatment yet."
And good intentions they were, I must say. I like the idea. His mom doesn't work, though, so they could save money, and attempt to regain what they've already lost due to SCL, by just having her watch him.
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 01:03:00 AM
I'd like to make a suggestion, it's what I would do if I had put my child in a boarding school or summer camp or whatever that turned out badly.
I'd make an appointment for him with a real clinical psychologist in your town to do the responsible evaluation people are talking about to get a recommendation for help for him that will be safe and effective.
Then I'd just go pick him up, bring him home, and take him to his appointment. Then go from there.
I'm not saying he doesn't need a placement. I'm saying it's not that complicated to get him a safe and effective one.
I wouldn't take any guilt trips or dire warnings from SCL if they try to offer them (which they probably will). I *definitely* wouldn't give them another red cent. I wouldn't listen to any guff they might try to give you about contracts.
I'm not a lawyer, but I've heard an awful lot of people's accounts and I have *never* heard of one of these places suing the parents for money and winning their suit. What more often happens is that the parents pay out what some school cons them into thinking they owe, the parents get the kid home and find out the school breached the contract six ways from Sunday and the school owes the parents, not the parents owing the school, and then getting the money back out of the school is pretty close to a lost cause.
Go get him, insist on leaving with your kid, don't pay them any money, ignore the school's manipulative guilt trips, and *if* they give you trouble about getting your kid (rare), just call the police.
Realizing you made a mistake is the hard part.
Starting to fix it is actually pretty easy.
Julie
Post by: Antigen on January 11, 2006, 07:40:00 AM
Huksters such as these are not a lot different from snake oil and patent medicine pedlers. In fact, they're a whole lot like Dr. Linda Hazzard. Those goods and services all but dissapeared as people started to understand them better. Then came the food and drug labeling act, when it was expedient for the politicritters to support it.
I don't think we stand a snowball's chance in hell of regulating our way out of this. I think we have to address the market demand, the overblown perception of this massive crisis of troubled teens and the deception that this is a damned fine way to deal with them. The regulation and legislation are just the wet sidewalk, which we all know doesn't really cause the thunder.
When Plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in a society, they create for themselves in the course of time, a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.
--Fredric Bastiat
_________________
Drug war POW Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 07:59:00 AM
My personal guesstimate of the chances of what Alex will be like when you pick him up:
99.9% chance he'll just be so glad you went and got him and didn't buy the Program's line of bull that he'll be cooperative at home and go to the appointment so you can find the best place.
0.1% chance he'll be hacked off right away and hard to manage.
My advice:
I think you can trust his feelings of relief at being away from SCL to give you the time to go to that appointment, get an appropriate placement, and get him started in safe and effective treatment/rehab.
Julie
Post by: Antigen on January 11, 2006, 08:33:00 AM
Never experienced it myself, but I have heard more than occasionally from kids who did get rescued fairly early on and who take the message from it "Oh shit! Everybody's really friggen scared! They're really not messin' around." And they then take things much more seriously till everybody's either got back a little trust in one another or they agree to tear the blanket.
No synonym for God is so perfect as Beauty. Whether as seen carving the lines of the mountains with glaciers, or gathering matter into stars, or planning the movements of water, or gardening - still all is Beauty!
-- John Muir
_________________
Drug war POW Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 11, 2006, 02:51:00 PM
I would have a couple appointments lined up. One for individul therapy, one for some much needed family therapy.
Alex is going to have some trust issues with his parents. Especially since they had him kidnapped, and escorted to SCL against his will. That can be very tramatic for a kid to go through.
Good luck you guys!
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 11, 2006, 04:37:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 11, 2006, 06:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 06:28:00 PM
Can be very helpful if you are open to it.
If you are determined to use, it is a great place to score.
If you have trouble owning up to your misdeeds and turning yourself over to a higher power, it can be a struggle.
The greatest thing about attending meetings like this is that there are shining examples of people who have overcome their addictions. You have to own up to having an addication problem to get the most out of it.
Does that help any?
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 06:44:00 PM
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/ (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Narconon/)
http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/narconon/ (http://www.shipbrook.com/jeff/CoS/narconon/)
http://www.crackpots.org/ (http://www.crackpots.org/)
http://www.xenu.net/archive/narconon/ (http://www.xenu.net/archive/narconon/)
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 11, 2006, 06:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 15:18:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Doea anyone know anything about Narconon?"
How strange I was just looking at that. came here to have you email me so I have your address.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 11, 2006, 06:58:00 PM
Post by: Sylvia on January 11, 2006, 07:24:00 PM
Alcohol and Drug Treatment Center
1105 6th Street
Traverse City, MI 49684
(616) 935-6382
(800) 662-6766
(800) 662-6766
(231) 935-6382
http://www.mhc.net (http://www.mhc.net)
Primary Focus: General health services
Services Provided: Rehab for drug and/or alcohol addiction
Type of Care: Outpatient, Partial hospitalization/Day treatment
Special Programs/Groups: Adolescents, Dual Diagnosis, Pregnant/postpartum women, Women, Men
Forms of Payment Accepted: Self payment, Medicaid, Medicare, Private health insurance, Military insurance (e.g., VA,TRICARE)
Payment Assistance: Sliding fee scale (fee is based on income and other factors), Payment assistance
Special Language Services: ASL or other assistance for hearing impaired, German, Polish, Spanish
http://www.drug-rehabilitation.org/michigan/ (http://www.drug-rehabilitation.org/michigan/)
[ This Message was edited by: Sylvia on 2006-01-11 16:27 ]
Post by: Sylvia on January 11, 2006, 07:26:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 11, 2006, 07:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 16:26:00, Sylvia wrote:
"Now that I got brave enough to register after a year of lurking, can someone tell me how to change the picture? I didn't like being a baghead but this mop thing isn't much better."
I believe you go to profile on the left.
then all the way down you click on Show Avatars
Post by: Sylvia on January 11, 2006, 07:33:00 PM
I don't know where you are in Michigan but was trying to point you toward some resources.
I know how overwhelming this is for the whole family and the sense of urgency of getting Alex the right placement.
Speaking as one who has been there/done that both as a youth (I was the poster about outpatient working for the cocaine addiction) and as a parent, although it may be hard to accept, the only program that will truly work for Alex is one that he can buy into. He needs to be able to work with and trust his therapist for any type of therapy to help. His parents may be wonderful human beings, but there are also family issues that need to be addressed and resolved.
[ This Message was edited by: Sylvia on 2006-01-11 16:37 ]
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 11, 2006, 07:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 15:28:00, Anonymous wrote:Yes, thank you
"It is a twelve step program similar to al anon.
Can be very helpful if you are open to it.
If you are determined to use, it is a great place to score.
If you have trouble owning up to your misdeeds and turning yourself over to a higher power, it can be a struggle.
The greatest thing about attending meetings like this is that there are shining examples of people who have overcome their addictions. You have to own up to having an addication problem to get the most out of it.
Does that help any?"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 11, 2006, 07:41:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 11, 2006, 07:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 16:33:00, Sylvia wrote:I truly believe that they need to go through a program together as a family. Trust has to be reestablished and they all need new resources to use when thinkgs get rough. Ashley states that he realized he had a problem and was willing to go into a program. I hope that is true. If he comes home and wont help himself, his future is bleak.
"got it, thanks.
I don't know where you are in Michigan but was trying to point you toward some resources.
I know how overwhelming this is for the whole family and the sense of urgency of getting Alex the right placement.
Speaking as one who has been there/done that both as a youth (I was the poster about outpatient working for the cocaine addiction) and as a parent, although it may be hard to accept, the only program that will truly work for Alex is one that he can buy into. He needs to be able to work with and trust his therapist for any type of therapy to help. His parents may be wonderful human beings, but there are also family issues that need to be addressed and resolved.
[ This Message was edited by: Sylvia on 2006-01-11 16:37 ]"
Post by: Anonymous on January 11, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
I agree, if you're determined to use, it's a great place to score. Some of the meeting attendees are court ordered to attend and will only be sober until they're off probation. Many are sincere. Some start out faking it and realize they need to change their lives- probably what the courts are hoping for. I think it will be important for Alex to have a balance of friends in his life- not only other addicts- so that he has other people in his life if some fellow NarcAnon-ers relapse.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 11, 2006, 08:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 16:45:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"QuoteI truly believe that they need to go through a program together as a family. Trust has to be reestablished and they all need new resources to use when thinkgs get rough. Ashley states that he realized he had a problem and was willing to go into a program. I hope that is true. If he comes home and wont help himself, his future is bleak. "
On 2006-01-11 16:33:00, Sylvia wrote:
"got it, thanks.
I don't know where you are in Michigan but was trying to point you toward some resources.
I know how overwhelming this is for the whole family and the sense of urgency of getting Alex the right placement.
Speaking as one who has been there/done that both as a youth (I was the poster about outpatient working for the cocaine addiction) and as a parent, although it may be hard to accept, the only program that will truly work for Alex is one that he can buy into. He needs to be able to work with and trust his therapist for any type of therapy to help. His parents may be wonderful human beings, but there are also family issues that need to be addressed and resolved.
[ This Message was edited by: Sylvia on 2006-01-11 16:37 ]"
Aunt Shelly,
He also admitted to us that he felt he needed treatment as well. He really wanted to go to treatment that his family could be involved in as well. He wanted to help himself and his relationship with his family. I truly believe when he gets home he will concentrate on helping himself. He has a lot of family support, as well as our support.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 11, 2006, 08:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 17:13:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:That sounds like the old Alex I used to know.
"Quote
On 2006-01-11 16:45:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"QuoteI truly believe that they need to go through a program together as a family. Trust has to be reestablished and they all need new resources to use when thinkgs get rough. Ashley states that he realized he had a problem and was willing to go into a program. I hope that is true. If he comes home and wont help himself, his future is bleak. "
On 2006-01-11 16:33:00, Sylvia wrote:
"got it, thanks.
I don't know where you are in Michigan but was trying to point you toward some resources.
I know how overwhelming this is for the whole family and the sense of urgency of getting Alex the right placement.
Speaking as one who has been there/done that both as a youth (I was the poster about outpatient working for the cocaine addiction) and as a parent, although it may be hard to accept, the only program that will truly work for Alex is one that he can buy into. He needs to be able to work with and trust his therapist for any type of therapy to help. His parents may be wonderful human beings, but there are also family issues that need to be addressed and resolved.
[ This Message was edited by: Sylvia on 2006-01-11 16:37 ]"
Aunt Shelly,
He also admitted to us that he felt he needed treatment as well. He really wanted to go to treatment that his family could be involved in as well. He wanted to help himself and his relationship with his family. I truly believe when he gets home he will concentrate on helping himself. He has a lot of family support, as well as our support.
"
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 11, 2006, 08:35:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 11, 2006, 08:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 17:35:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"If Alex and his parents agree on inpatient treatment will ashley support that? "
Ashley is at work, so she can not answer for herself, but I think I can answer that for her. I believe if it is an inpatient program that is local and she is allowed some sort of communication, whether is letters, meetings, phone calls, she would be in 100% support of it. I really think that the whole thing about no contact for six months to possibly a year freaked them both out. Please, just do a lot of research on inpatient programs for him, make sure they are certified and close enough so the family can be involved. Most of these programs will be covered under the health insurance as well, even out-patient. I emailed Dawns Farm to you, I don't know much about it, but from what I understand it is a pretty good program. There were several younger people there, I m not sure if under 18, but you would have to check on that. Any place that stops all communication and contact is not the proper treatment.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 11, 2006, 08:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Not just family, but even Ashley could go to meetings with him. Lots of people bring family to meetings, at least some of the time, especially when receiving sobriety chips for month and yearly milestones.
I agree, if you're determined to use, it's a great place to score. Some of the meeting attendees are court ordered to attend and will only be sober until they're off probation. Many are sincere. Some start out faking it and realize they need to change their lives- probably what the courts are hoping for. I think it will be important for Alex to have a balance of friends in his life- not only other addicts- so that he has other people in his life if some fellow NarcAnon-ers relapse."
Ashley already said she would go to any meetings with Alex. At this time, her couselor has not recommended treatment for her. She seems to be doing pretty good, just not so good emotionally. I think after the last two days, her spirits are perking up and things are moving in the right direction for all.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 11, 2006, 09:13:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 11, 2006, 09:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 18:13:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"I also believe they should have contact with each other. That is why I ask when he comes home they are going to want to see each other it would be nice to know everyone is on the same page."
Absolutely, I believe we are! Please keep us posted as to what is happening. Thanks again for the communication. If I can help in any way, with anything, please let me know.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 11, 2006, 10:22:00 PM
Post by: Shlee on January 11, 2006, 10:37:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 12, 2006, 10:42:00 AM
Do you have an email address? if so please email me. [email protected] I want to be able to send you links.
Post by: Anonymous on January 12, 2006, 12:03:00 PM
Yes, please try to start locally. Alex most likely has underlying issues which are leading to this drastic risk-taking behavior. A local therapist, psychiatrist, or md should be able to help you find a placement.
Reputable programs should be willing to take insurance and/or work on a sliding scale.
Alex needs to be evaluated by a professional who can help discern his needs and any underlying issues.
Post by: Sylvia on January 12, 2006, 01:15:00 PM
I just came across this in my Families Anonymous literature. Some of it really rang true for me and I thought I'd share.
An Open Letter to My Family:
I am a drug-abuser. I need help.
Don't solve my problems for me. This only makes me lose respect for you?and for myself.
Don't lecture, moralize, scold, blame, or argue whether I'm stoned or sober. It may make you feel better, but it only makes the situation worse.
Don't accept my promises. The nature of my illness prevents my keeping them, even though I mean them at the time. Promises are only my way of postponing pain. And don't keep switching agreements; if an agreement is made, stick to it.
Don't lose your temper with me. It will destroy you and any possibility of helping me.
Don't let your anxiety for me make you do what I should do for myself.
Don't believe everything I tell you. Often I don't even know the truth ? let alone tell it.
Don't cover up or try to spare me the consequences of my using. It may reduce the crisis, but it will make my illness worse.
Above all, don't run away from reality as I do. Drug dependence, my illness, gets worse as my using continues.
Start now to learn, to understand, to play for recovery. Find Families Anonymous, whose groups exist to help families in just your situation.
I need help ? from a doctor, a psychologist, a counselor, from some people in a self-help program who've recovered from a drug problem themselvers ? and from a Power great than myself.
Your User
I think keeping ourselves from protecting our kids from natural consequences is often the hardest of all. We want to protect them, keep them from getting a record or from going to jail....sometimes it takes a hard reality check to wake people up and make them want to change.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 12, 2006, 01:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-11 19:37:00, Shlee wrote:Maybe your not such a bad influence as we all thought Ashley. Your response above is very insightful. I hope this continues when Alex comes home.
"This is wonderful! This is exactly what Alex and I wanted from day 1, open-ended communication and consideration of each other. Alex would be and WILL be proud. Also, yes I am in complete support of in-patient treatment. I don't even care if we have contact for that 30 days so long I know where he is, he's getting treated right, it's what he wants and he'll come out of it a better person. Please, let me be the last person anyone thinks about, let Alex get home and be safe...Thank you for finally understanding, I appreciate every second you listen."
Post by: Shlee on January 12, 2006, 03:33:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 12, 2006, 06:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-12 10:15:00, Sylvia wrote:
"Hi everyone,
I just came across this in my Families Anonymous literature. Some of it really rang true for me and I thought I'd share.
An Open Letter to My Family:
I am a drug-abuser. I need help.
...
Yup, that certainly sounds like a good first step toward quitting and abstaining from your family.
I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2006, 09:55:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on January 16, 2006, 10:43:00 AM
Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 16, 2006, 11:15:00 AM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 16, 2006, 11:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 08:15:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"We are talking in emails and on the phone. It has been nice to have the communication opened. Alex is not home yet but he is doing fine."
CIM,
Did you get my email today? Could you please give me an update.
Leslie
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 16, 2006, 12:59:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 16, 2006, 01:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 07:43:00, Antigen wrote:
"I just sort of assume these folks are talking to each other directly now so they don't need this venue anymore.Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
"
I agree, but I also want to know the outcome of this whole thing! It's also interesting to read a play by play of what goes on when you decide you have made a mistake by placing your child in a WWASP facility then taking control of the situation by taking them out.
Post by: Antigen on January 16, 2006, 03:08:00 PM
All who doubted or denied would be lost. To live a moral and honest life -- to keep your contracts, to take care of wife and child -- to make a happy home -- to be a good citizen, a patriot, a just and thoughtful man, was simply a respectable way of going to hell.
--
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 16, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 16, 2006, 05:20:00 PM
The excuse is that all the other alternatives are 'not what they seem?' But, it seems to me anything would be better, including just bringing the boy home, than keeping him in SCL.
We are now hearing about how well he is doing there. So, I just have the gut feeling...
My guess is that he is currently in Jamaica to avoid his escape at age 18.
But then again, I am a pessimist.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 16, 2006, 05:39:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 16, 2006, 05:40:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 16, 2006, 07:01:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 16, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:20:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"I doubt Alex will leaving WWASPS anytime soon. In spite of all the negative information about the program posted here and acknowledged by family members, he is still there.
The excuse is that all the other alternatives are 'not what they seem?' But, it seems to me anything would be better, including just bringing the boy home, than keeping him in SCL.
We are now hearing about how well he is doing there. So, I just have the gut feeling...
My guess is that he is currently in Jamaica to avoid his escape at age 18.
But then again, I am a pessimist."
Atomic, how can you know? You have no experience of scl. Realistically, how could you know what's best for a kid you never met, who is in a place you've never seen? I respect most of your posts because they show some thought, but this one doesn't really seem that way.
Post by: BuzzKill on January 16, 2006, 07:57:00 PM
I never saw the sea -
yet I know how the heather looks -
and what a wave must be. . .
SCL can be known by knowing what it is - a WWASP program. This makes it knowable to anyone who knows anything about wwasps. A wwasp program, is a wwasp program.
If the kid is in a wwasp program, then the truth is, the parents have no idea how he is. They are accepting the assurances of staff that he is fine - but they do not know. They can't know. And that is most intentionally done - b/c if they did actually know - they'd surely pull him.
But they can't really say they don't know, can they?
What are these parents going to say to defend leaving him there? They can't say they weren't told. It's all right here - more or less, forever.
They can lock him away for a long time - but not forever.
Someday, he'll know exactly what they knew and when.
*
Post by: Antigen on January 16, 2006, 07:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 16:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
Atomic, how can you know? You have no experience of scl. Realistically, how could you know what's best for a kid you never met, who is in a place you've never seen?
One might legitimately ask the same of any edocn or troubled parent who haunts these fora.
When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans ...... And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. That's what we did in the announcement I made last weekend on the public housing projects, about how we're going to have weapon sweeps and more things like that to try to make people safer in their communities.
-- Bill Clinton, 3-22-94
Post by: Shlee on January 16, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 17, 2006, 07:54:00 AM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 17, 2006, 08:47:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 04:54:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Ashley or Leslie please checks your email.
"
I sent you an email with address. Thanks.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 10:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 16:57:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"I never saw a moore -
I never saw the sea -
yet I know how the heather looks -
and what a wave must be. . .
SCL can be known by knowing what it is - a WWASP program. This makes it knowable to anyone who knows anything about wwasps. A wwasp program, is a wwasp program.
If the kid is in a wwasp program, then the truth is, the parents have no idea how he is. They are accepting the assurances of staff that he is fine - but they do not know. They can't know. And that is most intentionally done - b/c if they did actually know - they'd surely pull him.
But they can't really say they don't know, can they?
What are these parents going to say to defend leaving him there? They can't say they weren't told. It's all right here - more or less, forever.
They can lock him away for a long time - but not forever.
Someday, he'll know exactly what they knew and when.
*"
Geez, buzz, Emily Dickinson must be rolling over in her grave at the misquote, lack of citation, misspelling (Moore was an irish poet, goofy; a moor is a geographical feature)and your spurious attempt to use her poetry for something as dumb as this argument. Emily was referring to the power of her imagination, which is maybe appropriate after all, since imaginary things comprise the sum of evidence against scl.
Sez you that all wwasps programs are alike, but they are neither owned nor operated by the same people. I suppose all the schools that are accredited look exactly alike, too? Wwasps is an association, not a boogeyman.
:roll:
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 10:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
Sez you that all wwasps programs are alike, but they are neither owned nor operated by the same people.
Basically, they are owned and operated by either members of the same family, or they're not associated with WWASPS on paper. Same tactic that Straight used way back when. The song remains the same.
Quote
Wwasps is an association, not a boogeyman.
It is for many, many kids out there who have been run through any of their little mind-rape mills.
My advice is: invest in Kentucky Fried Peking Duck franchises.
G.I. Joe at November 20, 2005
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 11:50:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 11:52:00 AM
Quote
Sez you that all wwasps programs are alike, but they are neither owned nor operated by the same people. I suppose all the schools that are accredited look exactly alike, too? Wwasps is an association, not a boogeyman.
:roll: "
This is the moron I am talking about btw.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 11:59:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 08:50:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Anyone out there that has the time, energy, and knowledge of the WWASP family tree to edjucate fool?
"
ISAC's WWASPS Information Page has some information on relationships.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 12:06:00 PM
Whatever!!!! I'm just a little upset by these comments!?? :sad:
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 12:10:00 PM
The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 12:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 08:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-17 08:50:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Anyone out there that has the time, energy, and knowledge of the WWASP family tree to edjucate fool?
"
ISAC's WWASPS Information Page has some information on relationships."
That was a great link you provided all of us with. I urge everyone to check it out.
Post by: Anonymous on January 17, 2006, 12:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 09:06:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"....when you have years and years of pissing people off, and the threat of legal action, you have to become creative in hiding your affiliation."
As documented here:
http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/wwasps.99.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/wwasps/wwasps.99.html)
Post by: Antigen on January 17, 2006, 12:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
Geez, buzz, Emily Dickinson must be rolling over in her grave at the misquote, lack of ...
Wow, where'd you come from? Seriously. Everyone else posting in this thread is either somehow involved w/ the kid we're trying to save (from you??) or a regular around here. And here you come along, lookin like only you can look and smellin like only you can smell) with randome insults and unrelated bullshit.
Why? Do you know this kid? Or do you have a vested interest in the program?
Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die
-- Malachy McCourt
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 12:34:00 PM
Post by: BuzzKill on January 17, 2006, 01:08:00 PM
I didn't misquote her.
The punctuation is a bit different - but Emily did very often use dash marks.
I added an e to Moor - so sorry.
It changes nothing in the meaning of the text and is easily understood to be a region of land were Heather grows.
Finely, The poem is not about her imagination. It is about her Knowing.
I *Know* how the Heather Looks - and what a Wave must be.
It concludes:
I never spoke with God;
Nor visited in Heaven.
Yet I am certain of the Spot -
as if a chart were given.
Which I didn't feel appropriate for the point I wanted to make - which is, one need not actually experience a thing, to know what it is like. One can learn from the experience and example of others, if one isn't an idiot.
And also, I didn't wish anyone to think I was trying to start another theological debate.
The quote as I used it is apt.
Emily would be pleased.
What would she have to say about Spring Creek Lodge, I wonder?
If I could stop one Heart from Breaking. . .
A wounded deer leaps highest. . .
Much Madness is devinest sense. . .
To fight aloud is very Brave. . .
If you were coming in the fall . . .
Troubled about many things. . .
I've seen a dying eye. . .
To know just how he suffered. . .
The last night that she lived. . .
Emancipation. . .
Heres one for you anon:
Belshazzar had a letter -
He never had but one;
Belshazzar's correspondent
Concluded and begun
In that Immortal copy
The conscience of us all
Can read without it glasses
On revelation's wall.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-01-17 10:22 ]
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 01:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 08:50:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Anyone out there that has the time, energy, and knowledge of the WWASP family tree to edjucate fool?
More.... http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2620 (http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2620)
Behavior Modification Money Trail
by Michelle Chen (bio)
Government connections enable ?teen help? industry to thwart regulation.
This sidebar is associated with a full-length feature article, At Some Youth ?Treatment? Facilities, ?Tough Love? Takes Brutal Forms.
The controversial world of youth behavior-modification facilities intersects with a web of intricate political connections. And where the treatment industry sees cooperation with government entities, activists warn, these links could cloud the prospects for public oversight of the "teen-help" market.
The influence of the behavior-modification industry is felt on Capitol Hill. Four members of the House of Representatives and one senator serve as honorary board members of Kids Helping Kids, a company with corporate links to a now-defunct behavior-modification program for teen drug users known as Straight Incorporated. The various franchises of that program dissolved in the early 1990s following allegations of child abuse, as well as criticism for using cruel, prisoner-of-war-style brainwashing techniques on adolescents.
Watchdog groups report that Straight Inc. has since morphed into the Drug Free America Foundation, a conservative anti-drug advocacy group. The co-founder, Mel Sembler, is a longtime Republican Party donor and fundraiser who served as ambassador to Italy for the current administration and ambassador to Australia under George H.W. Bush.
The connections are even more direct on the state level. Earlier this year in Montana, a landmark bill to impose regulatory guidelines on adolescent residential treatment facilities was squelched by a powerful lobbying campaign from private service providers. Proposed partially in response to reports of abuse and deaths in some treatment programs, the bill would have authorized the state Department of Health and Human Services to monitor private behavior-modification programs. According to government estimates, Montana contains over two dozen of these institutions, ranging from "wilderness"-based programs to disciplinary boarding academies.
To eclipse the bill, private treatment companies pushed their own legislation, which would effectively place regulatory authority not with the health department but with a five-member board under the Department of Labor. Three of the board?s members are representatives of the teen treatment industry, including state Representative Paul Clark, who directs a local therapeutic wilderness program. The bill, which was recently approved by the legislature, requests no public funding and specifically exempts church-affiliated and "faith-based" programs.
According to state records, Spring Creek Lodge, an affiliate of World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS), spent over $50,000 on lobbying activities to help push the bill through the legislature.
In Utah, the WWASPS name is prominently linked to the Republican Party. The Salt Lake City Tribune reported that between 2002 and 2004, WWASPS founder Robert Lichfield, his family, and business associates have contributed a total of more than $1 million to Republican candidates and party organizations ? a financial push that coincided with the killing of a 2004 initiative in the state legislature to regulate teen residential treatment facilities.
Charles Huffine, an adolescent psychiatrist who has joined other mental health professionals in urging stronger oversight of residential treatment facilities, is wary of attempts by industry interests to co-opt the regulatory process. "It?s the fox-guarding-the-chicken-coop kind of thing," he remarked.
But rather than a conflict of interest, some in the teen help industry see a healthy partnership with officials. In interviews with The NewStandard, WWASPS representatives described a good working relationship between their enterprises and the agencies charged with checking up on them, like state departments of education and, at Tranquility Bay in Jamaica, the United States Embassy.
"I?m all for law enforcement," said WWASPS President Ken Kay. "I think all of our schools work closely with law enforcement and would welcome their visit every day."
668: The Neighbor of the Beast
--Anonymous Postman
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 17, 2006, 04:00:00 PM
I admire people who are able to make good money, and not rely on the state to take care of them. But, it really pisses me off how they are making money hand over fist off of our kids! Well, not mine because I don't have any!!!! But, they made money off of me, and they are making money off of Alex!
They take this holy roller, my shit don't stink attitude, and get away with murder!!!
What's up with that?!!
Post by: Aunt Shelly on January 17, 2006, 05:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 19:57:00, Shlee wrote:Try and concentrate on your exams Ashley. Your future is important too.
"Well, once again, the tables were turned and the tablecloth was pulled from beneath all of us. Aunt Pam and Shelly, thank you so, very much for everything you've been doing for Alex and I. For actually trying to make sense of this whole chaotic mess. I will probably be giving either of you a call in the near future, exams are this week and this just adds to the stress."
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 17, 2006, 07:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 14:49:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"QuoteTry and concentrate on your exams Ashley. Your future is important too. "
On 2006-01-16 19:57:00, Shlee wrote:
"Well, once again, the tables were turned and the tablecloth was pulled from beneath all of us. Aunt Pam and Shelly, thank you so, very much for everything you've been doing for Alex and I. For actually trying to make sense of this whole chaotic mess. I will probably be giving either of you a call in the near future, exams are this week and this just adds to the stress."
Aunt Shelly & Aunt Pam,
Thanks. Ashley is trying to focus on school, but it has been pretty hard lately. On the upside, she was just awarded the Golden Key from Scholastics for an art project that was entered. From here she goes to the Nationals, and if all goes well there, then to an art show in New York City! This was some very good news for her today, after the disappointing news yesterday. Thanks again for the support, it really does help to have someone trying to help open lines of communication.
Aunt Pam, I hope you received the email with our address. She is anxiously awaiting.
Leslie
Post by: Antigen on January 17, 2006, 09:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 13:00:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
They take this holy roller, my shit don't stink attitude, and get away with murder!!!
What's up with that?!!
Oh, well, that's partisanship for ya. Ya know, some of the founders were pretty vocal against party politics. Maybe they had a good point. I'm a libertarian, not a Libertarian, because I think Libertarian Party is an oxymoron, unless there's ganja or homebrew involved.
But, generally, this is what happens when people organize to fix something. Then we throw in government funding and it's attendant bureaucracy and it's perpetual momentum and, well then we really fowl things up badly.
Great empires cannot subsist without great armies, and liberty
cannot subsist with them.
--Cato
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 17, 2006, 10:45:00 PM
Quote
Atomic, how can you know? You have no experience of scl. Realistically, how could you know what's best for a kid you never met, who is in a place you've never seen? I respect most of your posts because they show some thought, but this one doesn't really seem that way. "
There is enough damning press on WWASPS that any literate person should know this place is not a good place for children. I won't bother to list all the respected newspapers and TV shows that have covered the cruel and inhumane practices these facilities use to 'fix' teenagers. I won't bother to list the facilites that have been closed by the authorities of several countries. They are easy enough to find and read for yourself. I don't have to know the specific child to know that this cannot be good for him, because it cannot be good for anyone.
Jay Kay, the current owner/director of Tranquility Bay described ?observation status/placement? as ?incarceration in an environment so intolerable that he [the student] will do anything to get out ? where ?anything? means surrendering his mind to authority.?
Right from the horse's mouth, so to speak. What more do you need? I don't anything more than Jay's own words to condemn WWASPS.
According to Spring Creek's Parent Orientation Handbook, "the school is ìnot recommended for students who are suicidal, psychotic, violent, assaultive, diabetic, schizophrenic, highly depressed and/or who have significant mental and emotional problems, drug addictions, or traumatic brain injury."
Did I read that correctly? Drug addictions? What is Alex's problem again? Seems to me everyone that knows him on this board say he is 'addicted to drugs.'
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 17, 2006, 11:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:40:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Also, he wont have to escape at age 18. He will be welcomed home when he is ready."
So, he is still at SCL. Noted. Need I say more?
No he won't have to escape. I'm certain every precaution will be employed to prevent that from occuring.
When will he be ready? Who gets to make this determination? Does Alex get decide when he is ready, and what he is ready for?
Post by: WWFSMD on January 17, 2006, 11:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 19:45:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
Jay Kay, the current owner/director of Tranquility Bay described ?observation status/placement? as ?incarceration in an environment so intolerable that he [the student] will do anything to get out ? where ?anything? means surrendering his mind to authority.?
What kind of a sadistic fuck do you have to be to subscribe to this shit? :roll:
Revelation indeed had no weight with me.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 01:24:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:40:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Also, he wont have to escape at age 18. He will be welcomed home when he is ready."
Who gets to decide when he's ready? How do they decide? Cause my guess is that if you could ask him privately, if he trusts you enough to know it's not a fidelity test, he'd tell you he was ready yesterday!
CCM Girl, what happens if Alex wants out and staff doesn't think he's ready?
Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on January 18, 2006, 05:56:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 18, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 22:24:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:40:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Also, he wont have to escape at age 18. He will be welcomed home when he is ready."
Who gets to decide when he's ready? How do they decide? Cause my guess is that if you could ask him privately, if he trusts you enough to know it's not a fidelity test, he'd tell you he was ready yesterday!
CCM Girl, what happens if Alex wants out and staff doesn't think he's ready?Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999
"
Yes, CCM, tell us---even though you've never seen the place, met or worked with the "staff," never met the kid, and are not otherwise qualified to do so . . . We await your words of wisdom.
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 10:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yes, CCM, tell us---even though you've never seen the place, met or worked with the "staff," never met the kid, and are not otherwise qualified to do so . . . We await your words of wisdom.
"
Ok, I'm asking you then. What will happen? Who will decide if he's ready? How will they determine that?
Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
Post by: WWFSMD on January 18, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 16:24:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
On the upside, she was just awarded the Golden Key from Scholastics for an art project that was entered. From here she goes to the Nationals, and if all goes well there, then to an art show in New York City!
::birthday:: ::trophy:: ::nod::
Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name. Thy kingdom nada, thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.
--Ernest Hemingway, American author
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 18, 2006, 11:58:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-17 22:24:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:40:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Also, he wont have to escape at age 18. He will be welcomed home when he is ready."
Who gets to decide when he's ready? How do they decide? Cause my guess is that if you could ask him privately, if he trusts you enough to know it's not a fidelity test, he'd tell you he was ready yesterday!
CCM Girl, what happens if Alex wants out and staff doesn't think he's ready?Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999
"
Well, from what I have read on this thread, he is seeing a psychologist twice a week. I'm really not sure what kind of case load this person has out at SCL? It depends...if he is receiving a good amount of business from SCL then no matter what he'll recommend him staying there longer then he needs to.
If this is a private doctor who is coming out just to see Alex, then it's a different story.
But, back to your question Antigen......because it's simple enough to answer........until he's 18 he cannot decide when he's ready to leave. That decision is made by a combonation of folks........people who are all feeding off eachother. SCL get's paid....doctor gets paid....parents in return don't have to deal with their child.
The only person who isn't benefiting is Alex. Everybody else gets to pat eachother on the back. Good job! Good job! No, you're the best! No, YOU'RE the best!
::puke::
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 18, 2006, 12:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-17 22:24:00, Antigen wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-16 14:40:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Also, he wont have to escape at age 18. He will be welcomed home when he is ready."
Who gets to decide when he's ready? How do they decide? Cause my guess is that if you could ask him privately, if he trusts you enough to know it's not a fidelity test, he'd tell you he was ready yesterday!
CCM Girl, what happens if Alex wants out and staff doesn't think he's ready?Either cocaine and marijuana are terribly dangerous substances, and breaking the law by consuming them is a major offense that should be severely punished, or these are minor, personal matters that do not really count in the big picture of a man's life. If the latter is the case, then the rationale for a bloody, costly and futile war against drugs simply disappears.
--Jorge G. Castaneda, Newsweek International, September 6, 1999
"
Yes, CCM, tell us---even though you've never seen the place, met or worked with the "staff," never met the kid, and are not otherwise qualified to do so . . . We await your words of wisdom.
"
You're right, I have not seen the place. Just pictures, and a ton of kids who come out of there and told their stories.
But, I was at Cross Creek Manor. I spent a lot of time with the owner Bob Lichfield. I know how this guy thinks. He rewarded me with privelages that nobody else received by talking, and brainstorming on how to structure the manor.
I don't like talking about the personal part of our relationship because it's hard for me. I was confused about a lot of things, and in the end it came really close to hurting me. You betray someone who has that kind of power, and control over your life, and you'd better watch out.
I never graduated with a degree in psychology, but I was working on it. In fact, I have probably taken more classes then most of the staff at SCL. Put together that is!
Anywayzzzzzzz! So, then I have 4 1/2 years from when I was 12 to 16 1/2 being in these type of facilities. Not only did I get to experience how they worked, I got to see hundreds, probably even thousands of kids. I roomed with atleast 4 girls at a time, and they always had us changing rooms. So, I got to know plenty of different girls, with lots of different problems. If that doesn't make you an expert in teen psychology, I'm not sure what does???
Before you start screaming back at me.....a degree!!!! I do have a degree......from the School of Hard Knocks that is :smile:!!!
So, yes I do think if I were to meet with Alex and his parents I would have a better chance at bettering their relationship then the morons at SCL.
So, ANON any other questions for me? The doctor is IN baby!
Post by: Antigen on January 18, 2006, 06:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 07:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
Yes, CCM, tell us---even though you've never seen the place, met or worked with the "staff," never met the kid, and are not otherwise qualified to do so . . . We await your words of wisdom.
Oh? And you know something about this kid?
Please! I know you think you know all about the Program. Lordy bee, you've been wrapped up in it for so long. But I guarantee you, CCM gal knows more of the truth about it than you'll ever allow yourself to see.
What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 18, 2006, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 19, 2006, 01:21:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 19, 2006, 01:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-19 10:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"when alex turns 18 and leaves on his own have him sue his parents. Their are lawyers who will take the case and see he has their house and car and any savings. You can write me at [email protected]
"
God, where were you when I needed you?!! I would've been livin' LARGE! Too late now! But, do you think it's possible other kids out there could choose to do this?
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2006, 06:03:00 PM
Kids don't get real therapy there, they get seminars and drugs. Maybe if they are lucky a sympathetic ear from someone who got their degree out of a cereal box or a diploma mill.
I mean, seriously, the place is in East Bumfu--. What professional with any real qualifications would want to live there anyway?
They just hire a bunch of unemployed lumberjacks and washed-up losers who can't get a job anywhere else.
If you think the kid is getting "help," you are wrong. He's getting forced into compliant behavior. If you want to really help your son, bring him home to a place where you can visit every week and preferably one that has you join him in some therapy to sort out your stuff.
Post by: Antigen on January 20, 2006, 09:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-18 16:44:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Why is this person being so protective of the program? Or is he being protective of the parents? He's protecting something..........or hiding something? Which is it?"
I don't know. Just someone who drops in occasionally to castigate program vets. I guess it's probably either someone employed by the industry, a Program parent or both. But who knows? Maybe it's just some mad clown trying to start shit.
As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: Antigen on January 20, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-19 10:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"when alex turns 18 and leaves on his own have him sue his parents. Their are lawyers who will take the case and see he has their house and car and any savings. You can write me at [email protected]
"
Well, technically, given adequate thrust and loft, pigs can fly. But that doesn't mean they should. Now, I'm not going to suppose it's any of my place to tell some kid not to sue their parents if they're determined to do it. But damn, Dev! You just don't go throwing gas on this kind of fire. I hope for all the Program families to work things out together. There is just nothing that can take the place of that, if it's possible. And I count myself extremely lucky to have been able to work things out w/ one of my parents, if not the rest of the family. If I had sued him, I think that would never have happened.
You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!
--chongo
Post by: Anonymous on January 20, 2006, 09:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-20 15:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Read Spring Creek's web site and the web site for their bogus therapy. They have like two real therapists for 400 kids, no on-site psychologist--they bring in some guy from out of state, and their consulting "doctor" is an osteopath.
Kids don't get real therapy there, they get seminars and drugs. Maybe if they are lucky a sympathetic ear from someone who got their degree out of a cereal box or a diploma mill.
I mean, seriously, the place is in East Bumfu--. What professional with any real qualifications would want to live there anyway?
They just hire a bunch of unemployed lumberjacks and washed-up losers who can't get a job anywhere else.
If you think the kid is getting "help," you are wrong. He's getting forced into compliant behavior. If you want to really help your son, bring him home to a place where you can visit every week and preferably one that has you join him in some therapy to sort out your stuff."
The state has a record of the professionals who work there. Guess we should believe them before we believe you. The therapists at SCL (and there are 9 right now, not "like two") are all licensed and/or certified. There are three medical doctors; one is an osteopath.
Gosh, if you're feeling fact-challenged, just ask for help. Truth is your friend . . .
:wave:
Post by: The Liger on January 20, 2006, 11:00:00 PM
"Spring Creek Lodge Academy is not therapeutic in nature; however, SCLA has contracted Cabinet Mountain Mental Health services, under the direction of Michael Linderman, to offer to parents at an extra charge therapeutic care services. Complete psychological evaluations are also available by a licensed clinical psychologist who is on campus twice a month. Medication reviews are available weekly by a licensed medical doctor." (http://www.springcreeklodge.com/therapy.html (http://www.springcreeklodge.com/therapy.html))
It looks like Spring Creek/WWASPS has a contract with the "therapists" and "doctors" who evaluate students there.
The CMMH people are listed as:
Michael Linderman
MS, LCPC, Clinical Director
Lori Gerstenberger
Office Manager
Jean Witters
MEd, LCPC, CRC
Carolyn Chiappetta
MS, LCPC
Sonya French
MSW
Raoul Ribeiro
BS, counseling intern
Rene Parrott
MSW
Ellen Talboom
MA, LCPC
Mary Pierce
MSW, LCSW
Wendie Bauer
MA
LCPC apparently means Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor. There is hardly any information about any of these people online, but Sonya French (is that not a stripper name?) has a contract with the Montana Dept. of Corrections (http://www.cor.state.mt.us/Resources/Co ... hSonya.pdf (http://www.cor.state.mt.us/Resources/Contracts/F/FrenchSonya.pdf)) It has her phone number in the contract...
And one website says that Mary Pierce, MSW, LICSW is a clinical social worker at Brookhaven at Lexington, a continuing care retirement community located in Lexington, Massachusetts. (http://www.healthliteracy.com/oncallapr2002.html (http://www.healthliteracy.com/oncallapr2002.html))
So...is this list of people supposed to be impressive? One of them has an MA? One of them has a BS?
And riddle me this: Why does this place have the same address and contact info as Spring Creek Lodge if they are contracted from outside the facility?
"Contact
Lori Gerstenberger
Cabinet Mountain Mental Health
1342 Blueslide Rd
Thompson Falls, MT 59873
Phone: 406-827-4344 ext. 249
Fax: 406-827-5100
[email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])"
Also, why don't they name who the "doctors" are so that we can see if the AMA has licensed them? I'm going to have to call bullshit.
Post by: YuckFou on January 20, 2006, 11:46:00 PM
(http://http://images.google.com/url?q=http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/upload/thumb/b/b9/300px-Yellowjacket2_1.jpg)
Post by: YuckFou on January 20, 2006, 11:57:00 PM
That is Spring Creek Lodge's address. The CHMH website is a joke, it's a fabrication to make parents think they are somehow independent of SCL and WWASP. They share the same address, the same phone number, and the same website and email server... hmmm... could they possibly be the SAME ORGANIZATION? :eek: These so-called "therapists" are a JOKE! SCL is not interested in therapy, they are interested in tearing the child apart emotionally and building up a new, program child. And they will torture you until you give in, afterall, that is policy.
Post by: Anonymous on January 21, 2006, 11:21:00 AM
I do agree that the therapists who work for WWASP programs are paid to make the kid conform to the program and their parents' wishes. The WWASP therapists will not confront parents on any issues they do not bring up. It's odd that the parents and therapist work together to determine the child's issues before they even talk to the child. Then the teens recite their list of issues as if it was their prison number: "My name is John Doe, drug addict, manipulator, disrespect to parents...."
Post by: The Liger on January 21, 2006, 03:40:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2006, 08:53:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2006, 11:07:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2006, 04:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-22 05:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"only one committed suicide there."
But more have committed suicide since leaving. When I was at Cross Creek, many girls would unsuccessfully attempt suicide, probably at LEAST one a month. It's harder to be successful while still in the program- no access to sharp items, high buildings, etc.
Post by: Anonymous on January 22, 2006, 07:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-19 10:30:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
God, where were you when I needed you?!! I would've been livin' LARGE! Too late now! But, do you think it's possible other kids out there could choose to do this?"
If we can show the parents did know or at the very least have some suspicion in the program was abusive and you would be left there to be abused. The yes you can sue your parents for paying for you to be abused. Like in Alexes case there are public post on the board that show Alexes family has doubts and still he is in there. He could have a case.
And yes it is open for all former program kids to sue as long as they are withing the statue of limitations and that starts after you turn 18 and goes generally till you are 23 in federal court and state court the time limits is usally 21.
If we start holding parents accountable who ship their kids off then they may not ship them off as much to places like WWASP. Even if WWASP was to close tommorrow there would always be another WWASP like school to take its place as long as there are parents willing to pay to have their kid locked away and abused. If we hold the parents respnsiable all schools and would dissappear forever.
Dev
Post by: Antigen on January 22, 2006, 08:32:00 PM
Having a generation of kids raised by parents and grandparents who understand the Program and aren't buying would have the same effect on the industry. Call the goal demand reduction, if you will, and then we can talk about effective strategies to bring it about.
You're advocating demand reduction through coercion while I think it's better to use persuasion and education. And these are pretty nearly mutually exclusive objectives. If you sue and prosecute, they obey from fear and it pretty much shuts down anything about reason and understanding. If you use reason and understanding, people change their ways out of love and personal dignity.
TC was nothing but a quack idea adopted from Korean reeducation methods and picked up and endorsed by Robert DuPont on behalf of his boss, the Mad Monk in the whitehouse. It should go the way of ice pick lobodomies and Dr. Laura Hazzard's starvation cure.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
Why I Live at the PO (http://art-bin.com/art/or_weltypostoff.html)
Post by: Anonymous on January 23, 2006, 10:47:00 AM
http://www.alternet.org/story/31000/ (http://www.alternet.org/story/31000/)
...........The lobbying seems to have paid off. Seeing as how the National Mental Health Association has categorically condemned juvenile boot camps as counterproductive "bullying," the goal would appear to be keeping oversight out of the hands of mental health experts. Like some timber companies and others, a number of "troubled teen" companies have promoted the idea that they should be their own watchdogs. While the rules are tightening this year in Utah, a frontier is opening in Montana. As Michelle Chen reported in the NewStandard, a pro-WWASPS plan is winning out in the state over a tougher one, coinciding with WWASPS school Spring Creek Lodge Academy's $50,000 lobbying push to water down the rules. Instead of the state Department of Health, the new plan lets industry insiders watch over schools such as Spring Creek and others. And there will be exemptions for "faith-based" schools........
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 23, 2006, 11:51:00 AM
Thank you!
Randi
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 24, 2006, 07:17:00 AM
I sent you an email. Any news?
Leslie
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 24, 2006, 10:02:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 25, 2006, 12:31:00 AM
It's only six months. If he's smart he'll be able to make it out alive.
Damage will be done...but atleast there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Post by: Anonymous on January 26, 2006, 12:23:00 PM
Is he staying until 18?
Should we expect an 'Exit Plan 2' here sometime soon?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 26, 2006, 05:01:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on January 27, 2006, 02:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-26 09:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So.... anything yet?
Is he staying until 18?
Should we expect an 'Exit Plan 2' here sometime soon?"
Nothing new. Alex is still at SCL, and will be until he turns 18, from what I understand. The lines of communication are opening up, and I hope this continues.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 01:44:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 01:50:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 01:52:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 28, 2006, 02:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-28 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are forgetting to mention that the trouble that he got into was getting a couple of felonies. I love how people bend the truth to make others see what they want them to...."
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 28, 2006, 06:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-28 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys are rediclious... Running around trying to start fires.. you make me sick... half the stuff you are talking about is rediclious. I graduated from there and I was and still am fine... get a life"
And if the other half is true?
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-28 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys are rediclious... Running around trying to start fires.. you make me sick... half the stuff you are talking about is rediclious. I graduated from there and I was and still am fine... get a life"
Your spelling is atrocious, and you serve as a living testament that WWASP's educational program is RIDICULOUS. You won't be fine- you'll have to take remedial college English courses if you're ever going to graduate.
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 09:03:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2006, 09:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 10:29:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-28 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-28 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys are rediclious... Running around trying to start fires.. you make me sick... half the stuff you are talking about is rediclious. I graduated from there and I was and still am fine... get a life"
Your spelling is atrocious, and you serve as a living testament that WWASP's educational program is RIDICULOUS. You won't be fine- you'll have to take remedial college English courses if you're ever going to graduate. "
Actaully I am in a big state college with a 4.0 in the nursing program...
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 12:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-29 07:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-28 17:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-28 10:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You guys are rediclious... Running around trying to start fires.. you make me sick... half the stuff you are talking about is rediclious. I graduated from there and I was and still am fine... get a life"
Your spelling is atrocious, and you serve as a living testament that WWASP's educational program is RIDICULOUS. You won't be fine- you'll have to take remedial college English courses if you're ever going to graduate. "
Actaully I am in a big state college with a 4.0 in the nursing program... "
Unreal...I wouldn't defend myself starting with "actaully". Nurses must have spellcheck. I'm glad your college is big, because your intellect is obviously not.
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 08:36:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2006, 08:41:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on January 30, 2006, 07:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-29 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's funny to me that since you cannot attack what I have said you are going after me instead.. seems like you are out of material.. what a relief :wave: "
What you said, if you're the same anon, is that this kid, Alex, was all fucked up on hard drugs and facing multiple felonies. I only asked if you knew him by way of finding out the basis for that statement. Either you know him and found out from him, you don't know him, but you heard some shit talk about him from other WWASPies or you just made it up.
So, which is it?
Nobody writes curriculum for self-determined spiritual individuals and expects to sell it in the public school market.
John Taylor Gatto
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2006, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 08, 2006, 12:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-30 16:09:00, Eudora wrote:Actually this girlfriend posted something on myspace that had more info and that's where I heard all these things
"Quote
On 2006-01-29 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's funny to me that since you cannot attack what I have said you are going after me instead.. seems like you are out of material.. what a relief :wave: "
What you said, if you're the same anon, is that this kid, Alex, was all fucked up on hard drugs and facing multiple felonies. I only asked if you knew him by way of finding out the basis for that statement. Either you know him and found out from him, you don't know him, but you heard some shit talk about him from other WWASPies or you just made it up.
So, which is it?Nobody writes curriculum for self-determined spiritual individuals and expects to sell it in the public school market.
John Taylor Gatto
"
Post by: Anonymous on February 08, 2006, 12:46:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 08, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-08 09:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteActually this girlfriend posted something on myspace that had more info and that's where I heard all these things"
On 2006-01-30 16:09:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-29 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It's funny to me that since you cannot attack what I have said you are going after me instead.. seems like you are out of material.. what a relief :wave: "
What you said, if you're the same anon, is that this kid, Alex, was all fucked up on hard drugs and facing multiple felonies. I only asked if you knew him by way of finding out the basis for that statement. Either you know him and found out from him, you don't know him, but you heard some shit talk about him from other WWASPies or you just made it up.
So, which is it?Nobody writes curriculum for self-determined spiritual individuals and expects to sell it in the public school market.
John Taylor Gatto
"
Actually, there wasn't anything more posted on myspace that wasn't posted in this thread. Her Myspace did not have nearly as much written about this kid than the 71 pages to this thread. Seems like your just trying to start something by stirring up old info.
Post by: Anonymous on February 08, 2006, 01:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-08 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I look forward to seeing you all here when you have out of control teenagers.
"
Reality check, most posters are adults who have adult kids. Most posters here are straight survivors. So, no, you are absolutely wrong in fact -- it's been proven many times over.
Post by: Anonymous on February 08, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 08, 2006, 07:15:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 12:42:00 AM
From Myspace:
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:52 PM
anyone know anything about brett bins.. got his .. or anything??
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 3:02 PM
i tried to get a hold of him but the last time his friends heard about him he went to juvie for drunk driving.
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2006, 09:53:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 09, 2006, 11:14:00 AM
Well, she started climbing a radio tower, and reached it mid-way (40 ft.up) we were yelling at her.........you're not going to do it, stop trying to get attention, etc. etc. well she jumped. I have never seen anything like that in my life. I will never forget it. She survived somehow though she was parylized (she hit a beam on the way done that broke her fall just enough so she didn't die. I heard after years of physical therapy she walks with a cane.
I'll never do that to another human being. We all felt responsible.
Post by: Anonymous on February 13, 2006, 12:49:00 AM
One of the biggest myths out there about suicide is that people who talk about suicide don't do it or that people who talk about suicide or make failed attempts are just trying to get attention and aren't really going to kill themselves.
The truth is that anyone who is talking about suicide is high risk for completing a suicide.
There are mentally ill people who will talk about suicide before doing it because they'd rather have their pain stop than die. But if their pain doesn't get alleviated somehow, they'd rather die than live with it.
Anybody whose life sucks so bad and is in so much pain that getting stuck in a mental hospital for evaluation is a step up---anybody whose life sucks that bad needs a better life.
Someone who attempts suicide or threatens it "just to get attention" needs that attention---in the form of evaluation in a mental hospital with the pdoc's recommendations for treatment being followed up.
The idea that someone would put a child in a situation so horrible that the child would "manipulate" to get sent to a mental hospital for evaluation---because the mental hospital would be a *better* place---the idea that someone would put a child someplace like that horrifies and revolts me.
Seeing program people come on Fornits and prate sanctimoniously about why it's okay to treat kids that badly---not merely okay, but *necessary*---alternately makes me sick and makes me wish I was sitting on the jury trying those evil bastards.
:flame:
Julie
Post by: Ashley's Mom on February 13, 2006, 10:24:00 AM
"Thank God for this wonderful forum. I was "googling" the name of my son's former program, Spring Creek Lodge School in Montana, and found this website. I sent my son to SCL a year ago and should have seen the writing on the wall sooner. His story is directly in line with all the other horrible accounts I've read here. SCL is most definitely an abusive school. If you are not willing to believe the kids, believe me and all the other parents speaking out. I went to discovery seminar and should have known then what type of people run WWASPS and why my son was in so much danger, both emotionally and phsyically. I pulled my son due to financial difficulties after a year, and he is so much worse off now than he ever was, it breaks my heart. We made a mistake. A huge, life-altering mistake and I implore all those walking down this path to reevaluate their decision. I know now WWASPS is not a proper treatment facility for a kid with special needs, which my son needed. The stories he tells me give me chills down my neck, and I don't want to believe them, but I know he is telling me the truth --- even though I want to pretend he is lying to me. I know my son, I know his eyes and he is being truthful. He was abused. Just pulling my son out before he was finished was difficult. In my opinion Spring Creek School runs itself like a cult. There is no treatment whatsoever, they simply watch the kids and hope they outgrow their behaviors. I didn't need to spend four thousand dollars a month to have someone babysit my kid and emotionally and physically harm them. This is not what I paid for, but it is what I received. I notice there are a couple pro-WWASP posters here, and please be aware of something. I called WWASP and asked them about fornits, and asked if so many kids and parents were unhappy, why had they not changed their ways. They told me they monitored this forum, and post regularly. I wouldn't be surprised if the pro-WWASP posts are from WWASP employees themselves. This sounds ridiculous, until you realize how insidious and crazed the WWASP staff are. I wish I had never heard the word WWASPS and should have known right away what kind of organization they were just from choosing a name like WWASP. I was wrong, and now my son will pay emotional costs for the remainder of his life. Luckily we can speak about it and we are doing better, but he is still angry, anxious and worried all the time. Now we are pursuing proper treatment and therapy and he is doing much better. I wish we had taken this route all along, because it is actually helping him. WWASPS made him worse, and besides losing out on his entire college fund, it is now taking more money out of pocket to pay for therapy to help him get over the PTSD he now suffers from due to being mistreated at Spring Creek School. I wish I had never heard of that place, that horrible, horrible place."
I found this on the other forum topic "Let's stage a protest". Found it quite interesting.[ This Message was edited by: Ashley's Mom on 2006-02-13 07:25 ]
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 09:09:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-13 07:24:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:I am sorry to hear that your son had a bad expirence. I am a former student.. for real, not posing as one... I was in TB in 2000 and then transfered to SCL and graduated in early 2001. I didn't have a bad expirence. I think that is why the place remains open. There are a lot of people out there that didn't. I have a lot of friends that won't post on here because it hurts them to see people talk bad a bout a place that they hold so dear to their heart. I will say that I know that that place can be a bit like quick sand.. the harder you fight it.. the more it hurts. I conformed.. not afraid to say it. I learned a lot and I graduated in 16 months. It's all about how you go about it I think.
"Copied from other topic:
"Thank God for this wonderful forum. I was "googling" the name of my son's former program, Spring Creek Lodge School in Montana, and found this website. I sent my son to SCL a year ago and should have seen the writing on the wall sooner. His story is directly in line with all the other horrible accounts I've read here. SCL is most definitely an abusive school. If you are not willing to believe the kids, believe me and all the other parents speaking out. I went to discovery seminar and should have known then what type of people run WWASPS and why my son was in so much danger, both emotionally and phsyically. I pulled my son due to financial difficulties after a year, and he is so much worse off now than he ever was, it breaks my heart. We made a mistake. A huge, life-altering mistake and I implore all those walking down this path to reevaluate their decision. I know now WWASPS is not a proper treatment facility for a kid with special needs, which my son needed. The stories he tells me give me chills down my neck, and I don't want to believe them, but I know he is telling me the truth --- even though I want to pretend he is lying to me. I know my son, I know his eyes and he is being truthful. He was abused. Just pulling my son out before he was finished was difficult. In my opinion Spring Creek School runs itself like a cult. There is no treatment whatsoever, they simply watch the kids and hope they outgrow their behaviors. I didn't need to spend four thousand dollars a month to have someone babysit my kid and emotionally and physically harm them. This is not what I paid for, but it is what I received. I notice there are a couple pro-WWASP posters here, and please be aware of something. I called WWASP and asked them about fornits, and asked if so many kids and parents were unhappy, why had they not changed their ways. They told me they monitored this forum, and post regularly. I wouldn't be surprised if the pro-WWASP posts are from WWASP employees themselves. This sounds ridiculous, until you realize how insidious and crazed the WWASP staff are. I wish I had never heard the word WWASPS and should have known right away what kind of organization they were just from choosing a name like WWASP. I was wrong, and now my son will pay emotional costs for the remainder of his life. Luckily we can speak about it and we are doing better, but he is still angry, anxious and worried all the time. Now we are pursuing proper treatment and therapy and he is doing much better. I wish we had taken this route all along, because it is actually helping him. WWASPS made him worse, and besides losing out on his entire college fund, it is now taking more money out of pocket to pay for therapy to help him get over the PTSD he now suffers from due to being mistreated at Spring Creek School. I wish I had never heard of that place, that horrible, horrible place."
I found this on the other forum topic "Let's stage a protest". Found it quite interesting.[ This Message was edited by: Ashley's Mom on 2006-02-13 07:25 ]"
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 14, 2006, 09:28:00 AM
you conforming made your stay better. It would be
nice if your friends did post. Do you have a forum where we can ask questions to ease our minds? Sounds to me that this kid had problems that didn't fit this school. IMO SCL and others should choose there students better to fit there program.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on February 14, 2006, 09:36:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-14 06:28:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Thank you for posting. It is nice to here that
you conforming made your stay better. It would be
nice if your friends did post. Do you have a forum where we can ask questions to ease our minds? Sounds to me that this kid had problems that didn't fit this school. IMO SCL and others should choose there students better to fit there program. "
I agree - so far I am unable to find a forum with positive feedback on these programs. It would be nice to be able to read somehthing positive.
CIM - give me a call when you get a chance.
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 09:43:00 AM
Quote
I am sorry to hear that your son had a bad expirence. I am a former student.. for real, not posing as one... I was in TB in 2000 and then transfered to SCL and graduated in early 2001. I didn't have a bad expirence. I think that is why the place remains open. There are a lot of people out there that didn't. I have a lot of friends that won't post on here because it hurts them to see people talk bad a bout a place that they hold so dear to their heart. I will say that I know that that place can be a bit like quick sand.. the harder you fight it.. the more it hurts. I conformed.. not afraid to say it. I learned a lot and I graduated in 16 months. It's all about how you go about it I think.
Yeah right... why don't you guys start your own forum then, or a myspace groups, or something. As of now, there is no representation of any PRO-WWASP alumni. So far.... all there is, is a couple anonymous posts on this forum. So which side would you believe?
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 09:44:00 AM
Quote
I am sorry to hear that your son had a bad expirence. I am a former student.. for real, not posing as one... I was in TB in 2000 and then transfered to SCL and graduated in early 2001. I didn't have a bad expirence. I think that is why the place remains open. There are a lot of people out there that didn't. I have a lot of friends that won't post on here because it hurts them to see people talk bad a bout a place that they hold so dear to their heart. I will say that I know that that place can be a bit like quick sand.. the harder you fight it.. the more it hurts. I conformed.. not afraid to say it. I learned a lot and I graduated in 16 months. It's all about how you go about it I think.
And why is it, the same poster who comes back here and praises SCL, spells the same words wrong... everytime? THen when questioned, turns out you DIDNT go there. Your credibilitly in this thread is, well, nill.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 14, 2006, 10:39:00 AM
Quote
I am sorry to hear that your son had a bad expirence. I am a former student.. for real, not posing as one... I was in TB in 2000 and then transfered to SCL and graduated in early 2001. I didn't have a bad expirence. I think that is why the place remains open. There are a lot of people out there that didn't. I have a lot of friends that won't post on here because it hurts them to see people talk bad a bout a place that they hold so dear to their heart. I will say that I know that that place can be a bit like quick sand.. the harder you fight it.. the more it hurts. I conformed.. not afraid to say it. I learned a lot and I graduated in 16 months. It's all about how you go about it I think."
You know, you all are becoming better and better at disgusing yourself (WWASP Staff). I read this post, with an open mind, and sit back to think about it.......
You have some nerve coming on here, and saying oh....it hurts me and my friends so much to come on here, and read hurtful things about the place we love so much! Do you really think I liked going through what I did there? I wish it had been different too, but it wasn't.
There is something else I don't get.....how did you manage to stay in contact with all these former students from these places? You're not allowed to take personal information, such as emails, phone numbers, or addresses, of other students with you when you leave? Oh no, did you break a rule????
By the way, this is my 16 year anniversary of being gone from Cross Creek Manor. 16 years ago around 10:30pm I dangled out of the top floor window of the manor hanging by a vacuum cord. I was scared to death because I couldn't hold on anymore, so I had a couple of the girls (each one had a hold of one of my arms) trying to pull me back up into the window. I remember telling the girls "fuck it, let me go" they did just that, and I fell, hitting the asphault of the parking lot pretty hard. I got up, grabbed my bag, and to my surprise had landed in front of a window in the manors formal meeting room that was holding a late night staff meeting (just my luck!). The staff all saw me, and scrambled to their feet, and out the manors front door to chase me into the night. I ran, duck, and dived into bushes while they had the spotlight from the vans searching for me. I am deathly afraid of spiders/bugs, and here I was in my PJ's in the dirt! I was in, and out of irrigation ditches, making my way across open land with barbed wire fences, praying to not get shot by some hill billy farmer!!! I made my way back to a street that had a few houses on it. I found one, that looked like a cabin, and it had all these bottles in the windows. I thought it would be the easiest to get into. Here I stood on the porch, scared to death. There was a dog underneath the porch that sounded like it wanted to make me it's midnight snack. I was shivering. I'm not sure if it was from the cold, or my nerves?
I tried the front door, and it was open. I went inside, and this place was a mess! I was trying to find a phone, but there was so much crap thrown all over the place. I didn't think anyone was home, so I thought I would go in search of money. I saw a light on in a room, and peeked in. There was a man asleep on his bed. I couldn't tell his age, but I was desperete so I woke him up. He freaked out, and to my surprise he was only 19 or 20? He agreed to help me, and he had me sent to a house in Hurricane, UT. with 4 guys. It was a duplex that had no heat. On the other side was my old therapist Bob's son and his wife who either lived there, or were they slumlords? I can't remember! Sending those guys to the grocery store to buy me black hair dye was a challange. I think they may have had to steal it, the first time they came back they had the wrong stuff!!! Anyway, it doesn't matter, I never went back.
Wow, 16 years ago!?!! It's my life, and unlike this other person who had the nerve to write this nonsense above. Mine is a true story. My experiences are all over this forum. They are all real things that did happen to me.
The whole time I was at CCM, I never knew of one single person that said their lives were better because of their time spent there. NOT ONE!!!! So parents, please think twice. Really think about what you are doing to your kids. I have done everything in my power to be the best person possible. I wasn't given very much, but I am a survivor. People look up to me in my every day life. People respect me, and like me. I try and be the best wife, daughter, and friend I can be. All we can do is try, and be the best we can be. Nobody is perfect, and sometimes I don't say or do the right things! But, I am here because I don't want parents to make the same mistakes mine did. All I can do is warn you. You'll do what you want.
Happy Valentine's Day everyone! I hope you have someone special to share it with. Even spending it alone (which I did a number of years) make sure and do something special for you!
Peace,
Miranda
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 14, 2006, 12:19:00 PM
I have a few questions. Is it possible that things have changed in 16 years? or that maybe kids that are more rebellious, strong willed, and defiant have a harder time. Most of the stuff I have read seems to have happened years ago or over seas. I am trying to get a better understanding. Maybe it does help kids with certain personalities. I have met a few kids at a support group for families with kids in these programs. That said they hated being there and where pissed there parents put them there.
But now they feel there life is better. I understand they are part of a support group could be getting paid or what ever from these schools. I am not convinced either way because there is so much info from both sides that is why I ask. You want me or parents to believe you and not them they want us to believe them it is hard. They did say there were kids there that got into a lot of trouble and didn't benefit. That is why I wonder if it has something to do with personality. I have a pain in the ass daughter myself and her name is also Miranda..lol I feel she would be like you looking for any chance to get out. She wouldn't take shit from anyone no matter how they hurt her. The more you push her the harder she pushes back. So I don't believe she has the personality from what I have learned to go to this place. I sure wish I could figure out what would help her I don't know how much more I have in me to take the shit she gives me. What type of things happen to you? Where you physically abused, Mentally abused, raped or were you just pissed because you were there and wouldn't back down? Do you feel looking back now that you are older and wiser that if you would have just went along with what you were suppose to do that these things may not have happened to you? I do believe there must be something to all this or there wouldn't be people on this forum and my space. I am just wondering if these kids that say they benefited from this program maybe were more laid back and had a personality that aloud them to open there mind more or to just deal with it waiting for the day they get to leave. I am also hoping that Alex being a respectful kid will benefit. I won't know until he gets out.
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 12:26:00 PM
http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=4970 (http://www.missoulanews.com/News/News.asp?no=4970)
Spring Creek's Short Leash
by John S. Adams, photos by Chad Harder
Above: With around 450 students, Spring Creek Lodge is the largest of Montana?s approximately 35 teen behavior modification and therapeutic programs. Students there are not allowed to fraternize with members of the opposite sex.
Below: Spring Creek director Chaffin Pullan, left, and program director Mike Chisholm, seated, say that ?intervention? rooms like this one are used to ?cool down? disruptive students. Former students say they are used as solitary confinement.
Montana?s behavior modification programs watch their troubled teen charges like hawks. Recent lawsuits and allegations of abuse raise the question: Who?s watching them?
By the summer of 2004 Janet Larson was at her wit?s end. Her 17-year-old daughter Christina (both names have been changed) was drinking, smoking, sneaking out, doing drugs and lying. Her parents were worried sick she would drop out of school, end up in jail, or worse.
So they made a difficult decision that summer, a decision they hoped would change their daughter?s life: They decided to send Christina to a private behavior modification program in Western Montana. Like thousands of parents around the country who send their children away in hopes of saving their lives, Christina?s parents were convinced they had no other choice.
Her experience at Spring Creek Lodge in Thompson Falls did change Christina?s life, but not in the way her parents expected. Less than two months after enrolling in the program, Christina was back home in southern California, dealing with what her mother calls the ?shock treatment? she received at Spring Creek, as well as the news that a bunk-mate and friend at the school had killed herself just days after Christina?s departure.
?Basically a pretty good kid?
Christina?s problems began in the seventh grade when she was 12 years old. Prior to middle school, Christina had been an honor-roll student in the 99th percentile in her class. Then her grades took a dive and she began hanging out with a girl her mom considered bad news. She and her new best friend tried to run away. (They were gone for a day.) She started smoking cigarettes and drinking. When her eighth-grade year rolled around, her grades went from bad to dismal.
Janet enrolled Christina in a private school and things improved for a while, but it didn?t last.
?We started getting calls from school,? recalls Janet. ?They said she?s not putting out her best effort and she was late to class all the time.?
By her sophomore year, Christina was dating an 18-year-old drug dealer.
?She was in love with that guy,? Janet says. ?She was only 15 and he was 18 and he was dealing drugs. We didn?t want our 15-year-old associating with this person. But she is a very stubborn young woman. I love her dearly but she is stubborn.?
Her parents hired a therapist but progress was slow, and soon Janet realized it wasn?t getting through to Christina.
When Christina was expelled her junior year for smoking dope, Janet was distraught and enrolled her daughter in a drug treatment program. Janet knew the situation was worsening, but she wasn?t desperate yet.
?She was still basically a pretty good kid. Maybe I was in denial?I don?t know?but it wasn?t that bad.?
By the end of the summer, however, Christina pushed her parents? trust to the breaking point.
She was caught skipping a friend?s funeral to get high. That?s when Janet decided to do something drastic.
?I started looking into wilderness treatment programs,? Janet says. ?I didn?t want to be with her any more. She was lying, coming home smelling like alcohol and cigarettes all the time. She didn?t care what we thought. She just lost all respect for us. She didn?t care anymore.?
Christina?s parents had learned about a school in Thompson Falls, called Spring Creek Lodge, from a counselor in Christina?s drug program. The counselor gave Janet a phone number and Janet made the call.
She made arrangements for Christina to enroll at Spring Creek in late August. Christina?s counselor warned the teen she could run and have the police track her down and arrest her and then send her by paid escort service to Spring Creek, or she could go willingly.
?My counselor told me there was a gym there and I?d be going hiking and swimming and kayaking,? Christina recalls. ?It sounded like a great place where I could get away from everything and turn myself around. All I wanted to do [was] finish high school and work out.?
Christina?s parents thought it sounded too good to be true. Spring Creek was located in a beautiful mountain setting in Western Montana, far from the influences steering Christina into trouble. Marketing materials pictured smiling kids taking part in fun activities amongst towering conifers and quaint log buildings.
A woman named Glenda at Spring Creek assured Janet over the phone that the program could help. She said all the right things and had all the right answers. In hindsight, Janet realizes the school never interviewed Christina or did any kind of psychological examination of her daughter. They took Janet?s word that Christina was a mess and said they would help get her life back on track.
The next thing Glenda did was hook Janet up with a loan officer. There was no discussion about Janet?s financial situation or whether she and her husband could afford the $3,390 monthly tuition the school charged (not counting enrollment fees, therapy costs, incidentals and uniform expenses).
Looking back, Janet says she should have sensed something was wrong when Spring Creek was so quick to square the loan away, but she was now desperate.
?I couldn?t stop worrying at night,? she says. ?She was going out at night and I didn?t know what she was up to. She was not progressing in school. I was worried she was going to end up a heroin addict. I was afraid for our daughter.?
So Christina and her dad flew to Spokane, where they rented a car and drove to Spring Creek Lodge.
?Every time we stopped somewhere to get gas or something to eat I wanted to just run,? says Christina. ?I remember thinking, ?I can?t believe I?m getting dropped off in Montana.? I was pissed off, but I kept telling myself, ?I?m only going to be here for four months. I am going to get out of here. It?s not going to be forever.??
She had good reason to think that. Her mother had promised her she would pick her up in a few months if everything was going okay.
Christina was terrified when she arrived at Spring Creek. After checking in she was given two tearful minutes to say goodbye to her dad, and then she was alone. For the next 42 days, Christina says she was told her parents weren?t coming for her like they said they would, that she would have to graduate the program or stay at Spring Creek indefinitely. Christina says she was made to believe that her parents had lied to her.
Janet says she saw her first red flag when her husband returned from dropping Christina off and told her they wouldn?t be able to talk to their daughter for three months.
Then, just days after Christina?s arrival at Spring Creek, Janet and her husband were instructed to sign a ?commitment letter.?
?I did not want to [send] that letter, because it wasn?t true,? Janet recalls furiously. ?That?s what the program does; it makes you lie to your kids.?
The commitment letter said Christina was expected to complete all phases of the Spring Creek program, a process that takes at least 18 months. The letter confirmed their commitment to the program, no matter how long it took.
Both parents signed.
?A lot of things set off bells in our heads,? says Janet. ?We told her three or four months. I mean, basically, she?s a pretty good kid. Now I was lying to her. We don?t want her to lie to us and now we?re lying to her.?
The letter was delivered to Christina, who was devastated.
?I thought my parents had lied to me. I thought I was going to be there until I turned 18.?
Janet was concerned about her daughter?s state of mind, but she wasn?t allowed to talk to her. Program rules explicitly deny parents contact for the first two months, and even then, only monitored phone contact is allowed, and only if the child has achieved ?advanced? status in Spring Creek?s program.
Students enrolled at Spring Creek, and other member facilities of the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS), follow a strictly regimented points-based program and are organized into ?Families? with names like ?Integrity,? ?Serenity,? ?Eternity? and ?Innocence.? Families consist of 20 to 30 students and a staff member known as the ?mother? or ?father.? Students spend nearly every waking and sleeping moment with their Family. Families walk from classroom to cafeteria to their dorms in lockstep unison. According to news reports and families of students, a child can?t graduate the program until she demonstrates to the satisfaction of Spring Creek staff that she has taken responsibility for the actions that put her in the school in the first place. She must appear to believe that the program has saved her life. As reporter Decca Aitkenhead described the program at an affiliated facility called Tranquility Bay in Jamaica in a 2003 article in the London newspaper The Observer, ?They must renounce their old self, espouse the program?s belief system, display gratitude for their salvation, and police fellow students who resist.?
The WWASPS program is based on the theory that behaviors can be modified by the enforcement of consequences. Inappropriate behaviors, therefore, are met with swift retribution.
When a child arrives at Spring Creek, she starts at Level 1. In order to graduate the program, she must accumulate merit points. Points are hard-earned and easily lost. Speaking out of turn, looking at a member of the opposite sex, or horsing around?according to a card the students wear around their necks?can cost a student a day?s worth of points. Insubordination or fighting can result in the loss of three levels.
Level 1 students are prohibited from talking to Level 2 students.
?If your levels add up to four you can talk to one another,? says one Spring Creek student.
According to Christina, advanced, or upper-level students, Levels 4, 5 and 6, have more freedom than lower-level students. Girls, for example, might get to wear some make-up. For three days each week, upperlevel students work as ?junior staff.? They become the eyes and the ears of the staff when staff are out of sight, and they ?consequence? other students who step out of line.
Students who are disruptive or have outbursts are placed in ?intervention.? They are taken, sometimes by force, to a room students call ?the Hobbit,? where they sit in chairs. Some kids have reported being put in intervention for days, even months. The school maintains that a student is put in intervention for 30-minute ?cooling off? periods. If they fail to cool off or remain disruptive, they may stay longer, under the watchful eye of a staff member.
Christina says she tried to steer clear of trouble while she was at Spring Creek, because she believed she was only biding her time until her mother came to get her.
While she wasn?t allowed to talk to her daughter, Janet was paying an additional $75 per week for Christina?s therapy sessions. Then, one day in late September, she received a call from a therapist at Spring Creek, a woman she had never met. The woman told Janet that after only her second session with Christina, she was convinced Christina was depressed. The therapist said she wanted to prescribe anti-depressants.
?They wanted me to put my daughter on anti-depressants without even letting me talk to her,? Janet says, disgusted at the memory. ?Put her on drugs? That was the breaking point for me. I have read a lot about antidepressants in children and a lot of kids commit suicide while taking them. I didn?t even know who was prescribing these drugs. That was it for me.?
So Janet drove from southern California to Thompson Falls. Christina?s dad notified Spring Creek only hours before Janet got there, and when Janet arrived Christina?s things were boxed and waiting for her.
Unbeknownst to Janet or Christina, a mother from a community just a short drive from their California hometown was also on her way to Spring Creek. After hearing the news that Mexican authorities had raided and closed Casa by the Sea?an affiliated teen behavior modification facility located about 50 miles south of San Diego?that mother decided it was time to take her child out of the Spring Creek program. Her daughter was one of Christina?s Family members.
On that day in early October 2004, Spring Creek lost two students, and with them about $80,000 per year in tuition and fees.
Three days later, the school lost another of Christina?s Family members. Karlye Anne Newman, a 16-year-old girl from Denver, hanged herself in the bunkhouse that she?d shared with Christina only days earlier. She died just days before her 17th birthday.............continues at Missoula News, link above
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 12:40:00 PM
?The population you are speaking to is definitely a biased group that really fervently believes what they are saying,? Manning says.
Manning maintains that parents and students who left Spring Creek and today denounce its practices are in denial about the problems in their own families.
?Part of it is to protect themselves from the pain of the reality of what they?ve gone through,? says Manning. ?As far as the kids are concerned, they are going to manipulate to the hills, because that?s what these kids do.?
?That?s pretty much the program line,? counters Dr. Roderick Hall, a San Diego-based clinical psychologist who specializes in child psychology. ?You hear the exact same thing at all of the schools. They say the kids are liars and manipulators and they convince the parents that that?s true.?
Hall says parents and kids may see results from the type of behavior modification that takes place at facilities like Spring Creek, but in the long run, they do more harm than good.
?It?s not therapy at all,? says Hall. ?I haven?t heard anything that goes on in those facilities that has anything to do with therapy. It?s more like scaring the heck out of them so that they fall in line. That will work, temporarily.?
WWASPS, Hall says, catches parents ?when they are vulnerable, desperate. They provide what looks like an easy solution. I think their facilities are nothing more than private prisons.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 14, 2006, 12:55:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 12:57:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 01:03:00 PM
Amazing how you pick the suicide and the possiblity that she 'could' have done it if not at SCL as the ONE thing about the article that you'd comment on. When you read the description of daily life there one can easily see how this kind of an environment might well produce suicidal feelings. I also noted that there were about 4 other suicide attempts in the weeks leading up to the girl that succeeded.
and they talk about us[/b] being 'in denial'. :roll:
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 14, 2006, 02:28:00 PM
Thank you again Exit Plan the way you explain things did make me look at a few things in a different way. I find it amazing that parents send there 12 year olds there for 2 years or longer. I could not do that.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 14, 2006, 03:44:00 PM
Anyway, I see you are from Sunny California.........but wherabouts? I forget is it LA?
I went in, and read your blog. That was such a good read. A little emotional for me since I have spent years trying to forget what happened to me there. The little things....the arrival...the writing of a million letters to my parents....realizing that they were under the spell of WWASP by saying it was just me trying to manipulate them......nothing bad was happening to me there! The whole thing of admitting what you did wrong in the seminars....and still getting in trouble for it! I remember we had some Vivarin (caffiene pills) floating around, and some people had taken them, and admitted it. A couple of us admitted to sneaking a cigarette out in the middle of the yard. God, just the little things......little funny things I have totally forgotten about.
One thing I will never forget, and let me make this very clear. The day I went into Robert Lichfields office and said look here, I am going to tell everyone what is going on between us, the shopping, the test driving of the car, the promises of moving me down to the vacant house near yours, the promises of giving me Peanut Butter (one of your horses), the talk of marriage when I got a little older, the touring around the country together doing these seminars, and being able to spend time together alone at the hotels, unless you let me out of here!!!
You sat back in your chair unphased, overweight, with this smug look on your face, and told me to go ahead and tell anyone I wanted to. Nobody would believe me. If I remember you correctly it was you saying, who are they going to believe someone like me, or someone like you, that has years of proof of lying, and manipulating. You'd have me sent off to wilderness camp before I knew what happened.
You're right, who was going to help me behind the closed doors of Cross Creek? Well, nobody did. We sat down in front of Dr. Dave Goodwin, Brent Facer, and each told our stories while we looked at eachother(while telling yours, I just wanted to punch you in the face for lying). I told many specifics, you couldn't. All you could say was that I was a liar, and a manipulator. Those guys were employed by you, it wasn't until I was at the Social Service office and told them in a video taped interview that you were banned from stepping foot onto Cross Creek. I wish they would've done a polygraph at that time, I would have passed with flying colors.
The fact you have gone on to open all these places, and that you financially benefit from them. It makes me sick. Your thought process about things is sick. The fact you are still hurting all these kids, makes me sick. You seem to hook up with others that have the same sick thoughts as you. I look at pictures of you, and surprise surprise it makes me sick!!!!!!!
I don't know how much more of this I can take!!! If someone doesn't do something soon, I just don't know what I'll do? It is so frusterating, it is so wrong. These kids are hurting, and the people who have the power to do something about it, are doing nothing!!!
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 14, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
:grin:
Post by: The Liger on February 14, 2006, 05:46:00 PM
You know, CIM, it is entirely possible that people do not benefit BECAUSE of SCL, but IN SPITE of it. I mean, someone who goes from age 15 to age 18 is probably going to mature a bit regardless of whether they're locked up in hell or at home with their parents. Those programs just engrain it into your mind that you would be nothing without them. Those of us who take any time to think critically about such claims eventually realize the truth.
I have a friend who was raped and beaten up by her stepfather for 5 years. She now works with kids in similar situations. She says that she is good at her job because of what she went through. So, CIM, maybe you think we should allow children to be raped and beaten because some of them benefit from it.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 14, 2006, 06:54:00 PM
You left out the fact that she could have done that without going there. I had said that because I have read most of the links that have been put on this web site. So I must be paying attention. I also have said that at this time in my life I could not put my child in a school like this. I have never been put to the point where I feel my daughter is in danger and needs to go some where for help. I hope and pray that I never am. I have never personally known anyone in one of these programs to be sure what happens there. I will find out one day. Wish I never had to. I don't no any of you. I am sorry that these things happen to you. I think it is horrible. I also don't believe that kids should be locked up that long. (unless it is prison with a trial) But again I have not lived anything with my child to put my to that point.
I don't know if I could/would ever reach a point where I felt I had to or wanted to. I will say that I can see why parents send there kids there I have seen it first hand with wonderful parents who really do want the best for there kids. I hope if all this stuff is still going on some how you all can come together and do something about it. Sorry if it upsets you when I ask questions maybe to you they are dumb questions.
Maybe I ask only because my nephew is in there and I want some hope or to believe he is ok. Not because I don't want to believe you.
"maybe you think we should allow children to be raped and beaten because some of them benefit from it."
Now come on that is really sick. She didn't benefit from it in any way. why because she works with kids that it also happen to. Who is to say she would have worked with kids in any way. That is a nice way to help someone Why treat me like that. I didn't put you in that place or do anything to you. Just asked a few questions.
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2006, 11:47:00 PM
Post by: AtomicAnt on February 15, 2006, 01:14:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-14 09:19:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Miranda,
I have a few questions. Is it possible that things have changed in 16 years? or that maybe kids that are more rebellious, strong willed, and defiant have a harder time. Most of the stuff I have read seems to have happened years ago or over seas. I am trying to get a better understanding. Maybe it does help kids with certain personalities. I have met a few kids at a support group for families with kids in these programs. That said they hated being there and where pissed there parents put them there.
But now they feel there life is better. I understand they are part of a support group could be getting paid or what ever from these schools. I am not convinced either way because there is so much info from both sides that is why I ask. You want me or parents to believe you and not them they want us to believe them it is hard. They did say there were kids there that got into a lot of trouble and didn't benefit. That is why I wonder if it has something to do with personality. I have a pain in the ass daughter myself and her name is also Miranda..lol I feel she would be like you looking for any chance to get out. She wouldn't take shit from anyone no matter how they hurt her. The more you push her the harder she pushes back. So I don't believe she has the personality from what I have learned to go to this place. I sure wish I could figure out what would help her I don't know how much more I have in me to take the shit she gives me. What type of things happen to you? Where you physically abused, Mentally abused, raped or were you just pissed because you were there and wouldn't back down? Do you feel looking back now that you are older and wiser that if you would have just went along with what you were suppose to do that these things may not have happened to you? I do believe there must be something to all this or there wouldn't be people on this forum and my space. I am just wondering if these kids that say they benefited from this program maybe were more laid back and had a personality that aloud them to open there mind more or to just deal with it waiting for the day they get to leave. I am also hoping that Alex being a respectful kid will benefit. I won't know until he gets out. "
I'm usually not very blunt on these forums, but the line of thinking going on is, well frankly, pissing me off.
Someone states that if you conform they go easier on you. Duh?! Doesn't anyone else see how stupid that remark is? If a slave does what his master tells him to do without complaint and perhaps with a smile, maybe the slave will have an easier time. Does that make slavery okay?
Also, all this talk about efficacy. If torture 'works' does that make torture okay? Once again, I must state that whether the program actually helps teens is completely, one hundred percent, irrelevant. Let's not begin thinking or suggesting that perhaps we only need to have the teens screened. It is wrong to treat people this way, period.
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 15, 2006, 02:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-14 20:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I see your point, CIM, about the "only one suicide" comment and others' reaction to it. I think everyone keeps harping on that point because there is very little measureable evidence of what went on at SCL. When it's a counselor's word against a kid's, they say the kids are manipulating. When former students, who number over 1,000 on anti-WWASP sites, complain with consistency about the treatment they received, the program continues to deny it. So that "one suicide" is one of the only pieces of proof we have about what is going on. How do you measure abuse? Apparently not by the thousands, because we have that in numbers of former WWASP kids who are on the internet voicing their opinions. I personally experienced that some kids were treated worse than others in the few programs I was in. And of course everyone interprets that and reacts to it differently. Honestly, I really hope that Alex is not too shook up when he gets out since he knew he was a short-timer all along. I would not wish deep-rooted psychological damage on anyone, including Alex. It's just that, like people have pointed out, there are zero pro-WWASPers other than the program's anonymous posts we periodically see on here."
Actually, I can prove WWASPS is abusive right here:
WWASPS uses Resource Realizations seminars. This is factual and easily demonstrated if you have web browser and an IQ over 80.
Resource Realizations seminars are LGAT seminars. This has been proven by Gilcreases links to other orginizations that use LGAT seminars and by people who have been through them and tols us about it.
LGAT seminars are abusive, dont provide any real help, and merely result in a pathological effect from all of the emotional and psychological trauma, and arguably the physical draining from it. This is backed up (and is the opinion of) study of them by psychologist. Also, Erhard Seminar Training (one of the 'pioneers' of LGAT) was debunked a long time ago.
WWASPS themselves admit that the seminars are draining and damaging by having a short list of who should not come (due to medical, psychological, or health issues such as surgery or heart conditions, or pregnancy) and that they anticipate people to be physically drained AFTER the seminar in the brochures they make for the sliblings of program children trying to explain why mom and dad are acting so fucked up and 'different' and why they cant talk to their sibling.
To reiterate. LGATS are abusive. WWASPS uses LGATS. That alone is reason enough not to put anyone in a WWASPS program.
Q.E.D.
Also, the known censorship, restriction (if not outright denial) of communication between a child and their family and friends, and the lack of allowance for a child to reach advocates, the authorities, or legal representation is abusive, and Im sure in some cases illegal.
I'd say we have a pretty good case built on that alone, nevermind the fraud they do with getting education grants/loans from the likes of Merryl Lynch to their nonexistant program that ISAC found out, other than just the fact that thousands of people are coming out consistently saying the exact same thing, which is compelling enough to cause an investigation in and of itself.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 15, 2006, 01:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-14 22:14:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-14 09:19:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Miranda,
I have a few questions. Is it possible that things have changed in 16 years? or that maybe kids that are more rebellious, strong willed, and defiant have a harder time. Most of the stuff I have read seems to have happened years ago or over seas. I am trying to get a better understanding. Maybe it does help kids with certain personalities. I have met a few kids at a support group for families with kids in these programs. That said they hated being there and where pissed there parents put them there.
But now they feel there life is better. I understand they are part of a support group could be getting paid or what ever from these schools. I am not convinced either way because there is so much info from both sides that is why I ask. You want me or parents to believe you and not them they want us to believe them it is hard. They did say there were kids there that got into a lot of trouble and didn't benefit. That is why I wonder if it has something to do with personality. I have a pain in the ass daughter myself and her name is also Miranda..lol I feel she would be like you looking for any chance to get out. She wouldn't take shit from anyone no matter how they hurt her. The more you push her the harder she pushes back. So I don't believe she has the personality from what I have learned to go to this place. I sure wish I could figure out what would help her I don't know how much more I have in me to take the shit she gives me. What type of things happen to you? Where you physically abused, Mentally abused, raped or were you just pissed because you were there and wouldn't back down? Do you feel looking back now that you are older and wiser that if you would have just went along with what you were suppose to do that these things may not have happened to you? I do believe there must be something to all this or there wouldn't be people on this forum and my space. I am just wondering if these kids that say they benefited from this program maybe were more laid back and had a personality that aloud them to open there mind more or to just deal with it waiting for the day they get to leave. I am also hoping that Alex being a respectful kid will benefit. I won't know until he gets out. "
I'm usually not very blunt on these forums, but the line of thinking going on is, well frankly, pissing me off.
Someone states that if you conform they go easier on you. Duh?! Doesn't anyone else see how stupid that remark is? If a slave does what his master tells him to do without complaint and perhaps with a smile, maybe the slave will have an easier time. Does that make slavery okay?
Also, all this talk about efficacy. If torture 'works' does that make torture okay? Once again, I must state that whether the program actually helps teens is completely, one hundred percent, irrelevant. Let's not begin thinking or suggesting that perhaps we only need to have the teens screened. It is wrong to treat people this way, period."
I'm sorry CIM, I didn't see this post until AA re-posted it!
All I can say is that the treatment of kids in their programs in my opinion just plain sux. I see kids that are acting out, and I believe they need to be loved, and listened to. Not given harsh treatment, and even more rules, and more punishment, followed with isolation. It's so wrong!
I believe if you find out what a childs interest are, whether it's sports related, acting, art, or whatever, you as a parent can help them with their dreams, and make the teenage years very productive.
In my personal opinion, parents drop the ball when it comes to a child turning 11-12. It's like before that, they stimulate their minds to death through, toys, games, videos, reading of stories, sports, they basically bend over backwards for the kid! Then they neglet to follow through. Now this kid of theirs is becoming his/her own person and you treat them like they are an adult. I can understand why, in a lot of ways they are acting, and thinking like one. But, the emotional maturity is just not there! You as parents take everything so personally, like when your kids tell you they hate you! Oh my god, you are upset???? Why?!! Yeah, I know it hurts....but they don't mean it! This is an akward stage for them too!
My belief is, teenagers get into the most trouble because of bad parenting. Sorry, but it's true. Parents spent all this time taking classes, and edjucating themselves before a baby comes into their lives. But, they don't prep themselves for the teenage years? How come? We all know it has to be the most difficult years of ALL of our lives!!!
You as parents need to get real with yourselves. I want you to take responsibility, instead of sticking it all to your kids, then sending your poor kid off to a WWASPS facility. Do you really think they can do a better job then you? If you answer yes, then I guess you don't think too highly of yourself!
I want you to learn that there is a transition process when becoming an adult. During those akward teenage years take try to take the same role as you did when you taught them to ride a bike. Taking off those training wheels, helping them on to the bike with lots of emotional support (you can do it!!!), running with them while holding onto the seat for balance, hey there is always that chance they may fall, but you gotta let go sometime! You release them, and just keep your fingers crossed, and they do it! In fact, you can't seem to get them to get off!!!! It's such a great feeling, for you BOTH!
Look, I was a difficult teen. But, I had horrible parenting. They did okay in the pre-teen years. I excelled in sports. I started soccer when I was 5, and continued till age 12 (till I got shipped away). They took me to all my games, which was a lot of work when I started making the Spring Select teams which they hand picked you for. Which meant I had 2 seasons of soccer a year. I picked up Track, and was doing very well, even beating a good portion of the boys. I was even good at swimming, and belonged to the swim team at the Long Beach Yaught Club. I had good grades, the whole 9 yards then oh shit the teens rolled up on me, and suddenly I was going through all these changes. I was staring to experiment with smoking, I was sneaking some wine out of the gallon jug of Gallo in my parents fridge!!! (hahaha you know the one I am talking about!)
Oh my god, I started getting C's, I got in a couple fights at school. My punishments got worse, the parents stopped taking me to soccor, they didn't feel like I deserved to have the right to my activities. What a huge mistake! See, if they would've just held on through these years....and continued on the path I was on....just holding onto my bike seat letting me wabble a bit, I would've been fine.
You parents, and you know who you are! You have totally overreacted, placed your own flesh and blood into the hands of complete strangers where you run the risk of something really bad happening to them. Hey, I don't neccesarily mean at the physical hands of a staff member (even though it does happen more often then is reported) I'm talking about the emotional abuse (which can lead to frustration and suicide for a kid). You have no idea parents out there, what they are doing to your kids emotionally. It's irreversible damage. It does not go away. I am 32 years old, and it has not gone away.
I am growing rather tired of trying to explain to you parents out there, why I want you to take your kids outta WWASPS. If you can't figure it out for yourselves with all the information that has been provided by me, other former students, parents of students, and the countless others that know all about programs like these, then quite frankly you deserve every bit of shit that will end up happening to you, and your family.
I really feel sorry for the kids who have been labeled the problem, and sent off. Them, and the siblings they have. You parents are, and will be the last ones I feel sorry for. It's your choice, it's your doing.
For those of you out there who have asked for my help in giving statements, please continue to message me through private messages. I am going to give this all a rest for atleast a week! I am frusterated, and I am tired of parents out there, who I know have brains, but are not using them.
Best,
Miranda
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 01:47:00 PM
There are many followers of this program who have become programized. There is many like myself, and more waking up daily. Dateline, Primetime, 48 Hours & Inside Edition has done segments on this organization that paint the same picture of negative experiences. There are many newspaper and magazine articles (including People, Forbes, New York Times, LA Times, News Day, Miami Herald, Sun Sentinel, Guardian, Jamaican Observer, YM Magazine, Salon, Time Magazine, Spin, etc.) and lawsuits pending against WWASP that they are struggling to keep silent. Where there is smoke, there is usually fire. Why take a chance with your child?
http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm (http://fornits.com/anonanon/docs/wwasp/toc.htm)
http://www.helpyourteens.com/news/press ... giant.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/news/press_release_mom_defeats_corporate_giant.html)
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg2-desperate.shtml)
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg4-desperate.shtml)
http://helpatanycost.com/reviews.php (http://helpatanycost.com/reviews.php)
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 02:17:00 PM
Parents who use programs don't realize how much anger they're taking out on their child for not living up to the parents' dreams.
Parents who have been here on Fornits and know what facilities like Spring Creek Lodge are really like---what keeps the kid at SCL is a huge load of hostility and bitter anger at the kid.
They'll tell you they aren't hostile, because they truly aren't hostile at all to the imaginary kid they wish their kid was and dreamed their kid was going to be. They are brutally hostile to the real kid they actually have.
Alex is a drug abusing wild child who cuts school and has a lot of other habits his parents find unsavory.
They flat hate him for that.
They'll tell you they love him, but the person they're thinking of when they talk about how much they love Alex is that imaginary kid they wish Alex was instead of the kid he is.
They hate him, and leaving him in a bad place is an attempt to kill off the real Alex---the drug abusing wild child who cuts school---and replace him with the Alex of their dreams.
Sure, they'd probably be satisfied with an Alex that was just a lot closer to their dreams, but the real Alex has just got to go.
The parents who pick strict programs pick them because they don't want to admit it, but deep down they *want* the program to be incredibly harsh to the kid to punish the kid for not being what they wanted.
The parents who pick strict programs have such a high satisfaction rate with the program, even when the kid comes out and behaves worse than before, because the program did what they wanted---it wreaked their vengeance and vented their hostility on the kid for crushing their dreams, and did punitive things to the kid that the child welfare authorities would never be allowed to do to the kid at home.
A Program is a last ditch attempt to kill the kid that is and replace him with a kid who's a lot closer to dream kid. But even if they don't get dream kid, they got their revenge and they got to vent their hostility, so they're satisfied.
That's what I think.
The parents who hear what the programs are like and then go pull their kid out are usually just gullible people who really didn't know what the program was and were duped by deceptive marketing.
If a parent has come here and knows what's going on and still leaves their kid in the program, then on some level it's because the parent is deriving satisfaction from what is being done to the kid.
Parents who say they've never, ever punished their child in anger are lying. The parents I've seen claim this were people who were pretty good across the board at lying to themselves.
Ultra-punitive, ultra-strict programs sell, even with the parents knowing full well that's what their kids are in for, because that's what the parents want. They don't care about any of the studies that say these punitive facilities don't work. They will rationalize all day long lying to themselves that the facility has a chance to whip their kid into shape---because what they really want is to whip their kid.
Alex's parents can't closely restrict his diet, can't make him walk nut-to-butt everywhere, can't throw him in a place like the hobbit, can't keep him from talking to people at school or in the neighborhood that they don't like, can't "ground" him for months at a time. Their neighbors and Alex's teachers would report him to child welfare. Child welfare would take Alex out of their home in a heartbeat if they did those things to him.
But they can pay SCL to do it, and oooohhhh, there's that stroke to their sense of self-righteousness to be able to really sock it to him for not being the kid they wanted.
I'm sure if they read this, or anybody who knows them reading this, will deny it to the hilt.
I think that at some point, actions speak louder than words. They know this facility is doing things to their kid that, if *they* did them at home would get Alex yanked out of their home and placed in foster care. From reports of how the hobbit smells, and the temperature, and the inadequate blankets, it would get them criminally prosecuted if they had a "hobbit" in their backyard and put Alex in it for days at a time.
They know that's happening to him now. They know they'd go to jail if they did it themselves, but won't go to jail for having SCL do it to him.
The only logical conclusion is that he's still there because his parents *want* SCL to be locking him in the hobbit if he persists in being defiant.
Alex's parents are not duped innocents who don't know what's going on. They've been told. They know now. Alex is getting all this done to him because his parents picked this place and they *want* this abuse done.
The old lie of, "This hurts me more than it does you, son." That is a self-deception and a contemptible lie, no matter what parent utters it. It's a lie. When a parent's kid does wrong and acts like a little monster, especially if the kid acts the opposite of what the parent wants him to be, the parent gets mad. Really mad.
Most of us try to calm down before punishing.
But whenever you have a parent punishing a child to an abusive level, and denying it's abuse, you have parents who are not calming down before punishing, but are acting from rage and hostility.
That's what I think, and think very strongly.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 02:46:00 PM
Thank you, and good luck to you in all of your endeavors.
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 03:05:00 PM
I have to disagree with you. Parents are also brain washed by these people. I had my child in SCL. I found this site while he was there. Some parents are brain washed easier then others. I was afraid of finding my son in a ally dead from drugs. When I called the teen hotline they directed me to SCL. You think it must be a good place if you get them from the hotline. chances are Alex's parents do love him and don't want him punished but want to get him help so he can have a good life. There was a time where I didn't want to believe or see the things that you talk about happening. I had to keep faith that my son was getting the help he needed. After 3 months I missed him and he sounded like he realized what he had done wrong so I decided to go get him. He is doing good. We do go to therapy. This program is bad I now see that. He wasn't physically abused but the whole being locked up and so controlled and the fear of what could happen was bad. I have read that CIM would never put her child there now that she has read all of this. That is great! The problem with Alex's parents IMO is when given this info he was already there and they are hopeful that before he turns 18 he will get the help he needs. They will find out when he gets home how much damage it did to him. Keep up the great work!
Best Wishes, Denise
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 03:18:00 PM
I think Julie refered to parents like you in her post:
Quote
The parents who hear what the programs are like and then go pull their kid out are usually just gullible people who really didn't know what the program was and were duped by deceptive marketing.
I think that says a lot about what kind of parent you are ... one who cares for the well-being of their child -- even if it means admitting wrongdoing! Something a lot of us wish our own parents were capable of doing, even after all these years. Thanks for posting your perspective as a parent. :nworthy:
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 04:27:00 PM
Denise
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 04:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-15 12:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Julie,
I have to disagree with you. Parents are also brain washed by these people. I had my child in SCL. I found this site while he was there. Some parents are brain washed easier then others. I was afraid of finding my son in a ally dead from drugs. When I called the teen hotline they directed me to SCL. You think it must be a good place if you get them from the hotline. chances are Alex's parents do love him and don't want him punished but want to get him help so he can have a good life. There was a time where I didn't want to believe or see the things that you talk about happening. I had to keep faith that my son was getting the help he needed. After 3 months I missed him and he sounded like he realized what he had done wrong so I decided to go get him. He is doing good. We do go to therapy. This program is bad I now see that. He wasn't physically abused but the whole being locked up and so controlled and the fear of what could happen was bad. I have read that CIM would never put her child there now that she has read all of this. That is great! The problem with Alex's parents IMO is when given this info he was already there and they are hopeful that before he turns 18 he will get the help he needs. They will find out when he gets home how much damage it did to him. Keep up the great work!
Best Wishes, Denise"
You cared and you were duped. You didn't know. I'm not surprised it took you three months to believe that the place really was bad.
I think that even if you didn't consciously realize it, that after those three months you weighed what he was telling you against what you had heard about SCL and decided he'd be better off home.
You had to have. Even if you didn't consciously believe it, you had to know it was *possible* that all the people telling you it was horrible were telling the truth. A parent can't help but have that knowledge of the possibility sink in.
So you went and got your kid. Whatever reasons you told yourself why you were doing it, even if they *were* some big reasons why were doing it, you got him and brought him home.
That was a big act of love.
The cumulative weight of all the people who have been at SCL and say it's bad grows larger and more credible all the time.
All the time, it's getting to where there's less and less excuse for parents postponing bringing their kid back home.
All the time, people are getting more used to the idea that, "Google is your friend." More and more, it's getting to where there's no excuse for parents not checking it out beforehand.
It took you a little while, but you did the right thing, because you were duped by the marketing.
Maybe Alex's parents will do the right thing, but right now, they know, and they're not doing it. There are pictures of "The Hobbit" at SCL up on the internet. I wouldn't lock my kid in a place like that for 24 hours, much less 72 hours, no matter *what* she'd done. Add to that the smell of the urine in there.
That's pitifully easy for a parent to check out. They can fly up there and say, without giving them advance notice, "I want to see the hobbit." If they don't show it to you, you know something is very wrong. If they show it to you and it really is unheated and un-air-conditioned, and it really does smell like urine, then you know something is very wrong.
You could not build one of those in your backyard, pee in it for a week and then clean it out, making sure you *didn't* get all the urine smell out, then lock your kid in it for 24 to 72 hours at a time, with light meals, few bathroom breaks, and a thin blanket, in the wintertime (or if you're in a hot climate, in the heat of summer)---you could not do that without child welfare removing your child from the home and probably prosecuting you. If you tried that, or I tried that, it would make the national news as a child abuse horror story. Even if my kid was smoking ice, sneaking out, and having sex with every boy in town, it would make the national news as child abuse.
The parents could *check* this. Easily. Going up there, unannounced, and asking to see the hobbit is a perfectly reasonable request.
If we're mistaken and the hobbit is clean, if they have a schedule of bathroom breaks that's reasonable, if, on a surprise visit, there are adequate clean linens on the bed, if there's a reasonable shower schedule, if the hobbit has heat (since SCL's problem is cold, not heat), then we're wrong about that and the parents could feel somewhat reassured.
There are other concerns, of course, from all the things people who were at SCL as kids have to say about it. However, the allegations about the hobbit are dead easy to check.
Most likely, they'd give you an excuse instead of showing it to you or make light of your objections and try to convince you that it was really okay.
My point is maybe your kid was there for three months because nobody pointed out to you that there were things you could verify yourself pretty quickly and without a huge amount of sleuthing.
We had a lady whose kid was at Carolina Springs and I and others suggested concrete things she could check, reasonably, to check up on the allegations and get the idea of what was true.
She checked, she didn't like what she found out, she brought her kid home quickly.
I understand why parents duped by the marketing don't want to believe they were duped, but if there are things they can check out to get some evidence quickly, one way or the other, there's no excuse for failing to check.
At some point, "I didn't want to believe it," quits being an excuse.
If there's nothing to check out, that has some merit as an excuse.
If the parents are distraught and don't happen to think of how they could reasonably check it out, that has some merit. Having a kid whose having problems is scary and shakes you up---I know first hand.
But if you've been told ways you can check and you just don't check, then you don't want to know---and rage is the only reason that makes sense for that.
There are good inpatient drug rehab programs that last a few weeks to three months. There are multiple good drug rehabs that use different methods to get their results. Parents can try 12 step, education, or aversion. There may be more methods, I don't know, but there are at least those three. If the first drug rehab doesn't take, you can use another that works by one of the other two methods. If that doesn't work, you can try the third method.
There are good drug rehabs they could put Alex in, inpatient, that work, that last a few weeks to a three months. There's no excuse for not moving him to one of those.
Money is no excuse, because since most Programs don't tell you in advance how they do what they do, and their marketing is misleading, they've materially breached the contract with the parents. I've never heard a parent come back here and say they got sued or anything for not paying the Program another red cent--probably because the programs know that if the parents got a good lawyer, the program would lose.
Insurance is just as likely to pay for real drug rehab as they are to pay for SCL. Probably even more likely.
There's no good excuse for failing to check out at least the hobbit, then move the kid to a good drug rehab facility that actually works---by using the same methods rehabs use for adult patients who can up and walk out if the treatment is abusive instead of helpful.
I'm not anti-treatment. I'm pro-treatment. There are people who really need treatment for various things. Parents are paying Programs for Rolls-Royce treatment and getting exploding Pinto station wagons. I think families should get the quality care they're paying for.
Bootcamps and behavior modification facilities that are punitive like bootcamps just don't work.
Rehab works---the kinds of rehab they do for adults. There are plenty of high quality rehab facilities. They aren't juvenile behavior modification facilities.
Families deserve quality care.
It's a damned shame to waste precious time sticking a child in a confrontational-model juvenile behavior modification facility when he could be getting high quality, supportive-model care that really has a decent clinically proven success rate, for the same money or less.
It's a damned shame.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 05:12:00 PM
So in a way I was guilty as your parents. I may have not been totally pulled into the program. I am thankful for what ever made me go get him. It scares me that I could have left him there. Because I truly believed that is where he belonged and things would be so much better when he graduated.
Maybe this can help ease some of the bad feelings you have for them. So you can feel better. If that is what you need. Part of them will always feel maybe they did something wrong. Not all will be able to admit it. It is human nature and differences in personality's. We can't always control that stuff.
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 05:23:00 PM
http://southcoastrecovery.com/?CFID=271 ... N=27051630 (http://southcoastrecovery.com/?CFID=271942&CFTOKEN=27051630)
I don't know for sure that they accept teens, I don't know anything else about them, but mainstream rehab *is* out there.
I know I for sure don't hear about them abusing their clients.
Here's another:
http://choicesrecoverycenter.org/?CFID= ... N=27051630 (http://choicesrecoverycenter.org/?CFID=271942&CFTOKEN=27051630)
Another:
http://www.azureacres.com/substance-abu ... atment.asp (http://www.azureacres.com/substance-abuse-treatment/residential-treatment.asp)
Here's another that specifically says they take both adolescents and adults---and I haven't seen people all over Fornits saying, "I was abused there!" Also, it's in California, which has some pretty good rules and oversight--compared to other states---to prevent abuses.
http://www.camprecovery.com/index.asp (http://www.camprecovery.com/index.asp)
Quality residential rehab is out there. Without the baggage of WWASPS track record of myriad serious and credible allegations of abuse.
There's really no excuse for not moving your drug addicted teen to a *good* residential drug rehab facility.
None of these people are paying me, I do not work as an ed. con., I do not provide any warranty, express or implied, about the nature of their services.
I'm just saying that there *are* residential drug rehab facilities that *don't* have people screaming of abuse all over the internet.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 15, 2006, 06:33:00 PM
Then he wasn't willing to go. So none of these places would help. That is how they get most parents to go with the program. I did google the school that is how I researched it after calling a teen hotline. I didn't find this site or anything bad. Someone that I worked with brought this forum to my attention. I am not even sure how she found it. When I googled Spring Creek Lodge I found nothing bad.
Denise
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 12:27:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-15 15:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You make very good points. Hopefully you can stop a lot of kids from staying in this type of environment. I do know how it feels to be on the other side and I wanted to point that out. It appears maybe with Alex. He was escorted right?
Then he wasn't willing to go. So none of these places would help. That is how they get most parents to go with the program. I did google the school that is how I researched it after calling a teen hotline. I didn't find this site or anything bad. Someone that I worked with brought this forum to my attention. I am not even sure how she found it. When I googled Spring Creek Lodge I found nothing bad.
Denise"
If you mean none of the rehab programs would work because he didn't want to go, you are mistaken. Prior to leaving, if you read any back postings, he wanted to be put into an inpatient treatment center.
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 12:36:00 AM
http://www.helpyourteens.com/news/impor ... wasps.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/news/important_notice_of_lawsuite_against_wwasps.html)
http://www.voy.com/58570/ (http://www.voy.com/58570/)
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 12:37:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 09:15:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 09:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 06:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Back to the topic at hand, SCL is NOT a certified drug treatment center. I don't even know if it is a drug treatment center. It doesn't sound like it in their own brochures. It states it is not recommended for children with drug problems and suicidal tendencies. How ironic, since this seems to be one of the main reasons parents stick their kids there. This is NOT a place where you put teens needing drug rehabilitation. This is NOT a place where you put ANY teen! Why can't people see that!"
I think this goes a long way towards answering that question. It's from an article written on the recent death of a 14 year old in a Florida boot camp but it completely speaks to the mentality of behavior mod and thought reform as it applies to RTCs and the rest of the 'theraputic communities'. It directly answers why America in general continues to tolerate this. I think it's a really important point.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... =30#173875 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13885&forum=9&start=30#173875)
Quote
On 2006-02-16 06:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 06:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13883103.htm (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/13883103.htm)
But failure has no bearing on the political popularity of anti-crime programs. No one would dare redirect those billions into softy concepts that lack military terminology or get-tough promises.
WASTE OF TIME
''Why do we still have the DARE [Drug Abuse Resistence Education] program in schools after 20 years when everybody knows it's a waste of time and money?'' asked Aaron McNeece, dean of the Florida State University College of Social Work. It was a rhetorical question. McNeece knows that symbolic solutions to crime count more than results. The DARE program, putting uniformed police officers in classrooms to warn against drugs, has been an especially resilient failure.
In 2001 the U.S. Surgeon General reported that studies of the DARE program ``consistently show little or no deterrent effects on substance use.''
The next year, National Academy of Sciences slammed DARE. The GAO reported ``no significant differences in illicit drug use between students who received DARE and students who did not.''
Three-strikes-and-you're-out may be a popular sentencing regime among politicians. Three strikes against DARE didn't matter.
Boot camps evolved from Scared Straight, the original shock-the-kids program based on the assumption that taking children on tours of jails would scare them into lawful behavior. Scared Straight didn't work. Failure didn't matter. It just inspired the next step in shock therapy.
WIDE APPEAL
''Boot camps appealed to everybody,'' said Jeanne B. Stinchcomb, a professor of criminology and criminal justice at Florida Atlantic University. She published a paper last year in the Journal of Offender Rehabilitation, entitled, tellingly, From Optimistic Policies to Pessimistic Outcomes: Why Won't Boot Camps either Succeed Pragmatically or Succumb Politically?
She said conservatives liked the get-tough image. Liberals liked an alternative to prison. Boot camps were cheap to operate. The idea simply had too many powerful stakeholders for failure to matter.
And the public, Stinchcomb said, embraced boot camps with an ''intuitive faith'' that this was the quick fix for juvenile crime. Everyone loved the images of ''little urban wretches'' marching around like soldiers.
Oh, how we love to combat crime with military metaphors. Unless some brave political leader declares a War on Useless Policies, the failures just won't matter.
"
Wow. I think this is the most important point to be made out of all of this. I hope everyone really reads and understands this. It explains a whole lot of why these places came about and why they continue to exist."
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 11:56:00 AM
makes ya think.
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 12:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 08:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I noticed that. Then why do they accept these kids when they are told that the parents are sending them because of drug abbuse? HMMM
makes ya think. "
I'll tell you why.....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
It makes me sick!
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 12:35:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 01:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-15 15:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
" You make very good points. Hopefully you can stop a lot of kids from staying in this type of environment. I do know how it feels to be on the other side and I wanted to point that out. It appears maybe with Alex. He was escorted right?
Then he wasn't willing to go. So none of these places would help. That is how they get most parents to go with the program. I did google the school that is how I researched it after calling a teen hotline. I didn't find this site or anything bad. Someone that I worked with brought this forum to my attention. I am not even sure how she found it. When I googled Spring Creek Lodge I found nothing bad.
Denise"
According to the people who know him who have posted here, Alex agreed that he needed to get sober, and he wanted to get sober.
He wanted an outpatient drug rehab, which suggests he would have been willing to negotiate reasonably on a reputable inpatient drug rehab.
My child has pediatric bipolar disorder. Like other children with PBD she can very often be oppositional and defiant. She is less so with me, because I hit on the methods of handling opposition and defiance correctly, in the way the experts on ODD (which she doesn't have) recommend.
When I told her therapist how I handle her when she gets oppositional, the therapist held up a book on ODD and said, "Interesting that you should say that, because that's exactly how the experts recommend parents cope with that problem."
When a kid is oppositional, their brain is "stuck." It's all locked up, like a rusted lock or badly tangled hair. It's extremely counter-productive to force it. If you force a rusted lock, your key breaks off in it. If you insist on yanking a comb through bad tangles in long hair, they snarl up so bad you can rip out whole hunks of hair, or have to cut the knot out of the hair.
What you do with an oppositional kid is you get them to agree that they would rather not have whatever problem they have. Whether it's behavior or bad grades or interpersonal problems or whatever. A good parent only wants to alter a child's behavior for the child's good, anyway. All you have to do is gently and kindly appeal to the child's self interest to help the kid realize they would be happier without the hassle of whatever problem it is.
Then you make yourself the child's ally in fixing the problem. You solicit the child's ideas on how to fix the problem. After all, it doesn't matter whose idea it was as long as the problem gets fixed. You don't reject the child's ideas out of hand or put them down by flat telling them that won't work. You don't go into opposition yourself and lock heads with the child.
Instead, you talk through the possibilities of the child's suggested solutions and use them as a starting point to negotiate a workable approach.
The parent also has to be open to the possibility that the child won't see whatever it is as a problem even after discussion, and has to pick their battles carefully. If on minor things the child and parent can reason together and the parent always respects and sometimes accepts the child's point of view, then when the parent picks an issue that they just have to go to the mat on, the child is much more tractable. It has to be reason, not wheedling.
"I wish you'd do this differently, and I know you don't see it as a problem. Truly, this one issue is not that big a deal. We can try this your way and come back to it if it starts causing bigger problems. Is that a deal?" If the child is reluctant to make a deal, "Hey, you've got a victory. If I were you, I'd take it and quit while you're ahead."
When you make yourself the child's ally, when you quit trying to force it, you win on the big things. Even if you do have to take something to the mat and force the issue because you can't agree and it's a battle you have to win--because it's one of the *big* issues--if you have a long established habit of being your child's ally, your child gives in easier and gets over it quicker.
Alex had already agreed that he had a problem, that he wanted to correct the problem, and that he needed professional help to do it.
Wanting an outpatient problem was a heaven-sent opening to negotiate with him and persuade him that a *quality* inpatient rehab was a better idea.
If the parents had found three quality, supportive, inpatient rehab facilities, with programs of reasonable duration--three weeks intensive, minimum, to 100 days or less at a more measured pace--and let him pick from the three, he would have gone for it. That's the way kids work. If he had still been reluctant to go for it, then sit him down in front of Google and let him look around for a comparable inpatient facility that would take him that he liked better.
A three week intensive inpatient program that then followed up with the outpatient care he wanted would have been entirely reasonable. Three weeks of intensive inpatient care can do a *lot*---far more than most people would think. That's provided they're followed with outpatient care that takes rehab out to the longer 90 day or so duration.
They could have *easily* gotten this kid to buy into a three week intensive program and then the outpatient program he wanted as long as he stayed clean. They could have hedged their bets by getting him to agree, in advance, to a specific three month inpatient program *if* he went to the three week intensive and then didn't stay clean and sober on the outpatient program he wanted.
All they had to do was be reasonable.
As the situation stands now, the best thing they could do would be to pull him out and say, "Son, you were right, we were wrong, the outpatient care you want is a better choice as long as you can stay sober on it. This place is not a reputable rehab and was a huge mistake." Say it, be sincere, and mean it. "I'm sure you are confident of your success in that outpatient program or you wouldn't have picked it. We really want you to succeed at that, just like we know you are determined to succeed. Son, we've been in touch with *reputable* experts, not these bozos. They tell us long-term drug rehab is hard. We think you'll succeed, but because it's so hard, you need a backup plan--but not one with sadistic, power-tripping quacks." Wait for that to sink in.
"The inpatient rehabs adults use---adults who can leave any time they want if the treatment isn't what was advertised---have proven track record. Doesn't that make sense, since the adults can leave any time if they're with quacks. The *adult* rehabs don't have to tell family members to ignore allegations of abuse, because they're not run by abusive quacks." Wait for that to sink in.
"Strictly for a backup if *you* decide outpatient isn't helping you, we've gotten a list of *reputable* inpatient rehabs that serve primarily adults of all ages, not just young adults. People who can leave if it's a bad place. The particular ones we've got will also take an almost-adult like you. The decision of whether outpatient was working or not would be totally your call, as long as you were still attending outpatient. That's because we know we made a huge judgment error, and frankly, son, you couldn't choose much worse than we did." Wait for that to sink in. The parents *did* make a huge judgment error, and to get Alex to listen, they're going to have to eat loads of humble pie over it.
"You need a backup plan, but if you decide to use it, it would always be your choice if you wanted to call and have us come get you. The adult rehab facilities don't keep patients from making a phone call to leave. We want you to pick out one of these *reputable* adult inpatient rehabs so that if *you* discover outpatient isn't enough to support your sobriety, you have a backup plan waiting. For your backup plan, if there's an inpatient rehab not on the list that you would prefer, that's okay, too. It couldn't cost a bazillion dollars, but most reputable rehabs are comparable cost or less than what we were paying these quacks." Wait for that to sink in.
"Son, you're old enough now to take responsibility for your own sobriety. We just know you wouldn't be able to afford rehab on your own and want you to know that we'll support you and cover the costs of what you decide I want you to get and keep your sobriety. We made a terrible judgment call, so now, as long as you're going *somewhere* to help you with sobriety, we're going to go with *your* judgment calls about where and how."
If he relapses, the parents might have to ask him to move out so they don't enable the addiction, but they should let him know that helping him out with the costs of rehab is a standing offer.
He may be totally resistant to treatment when they go get him, because they have really screwed up and he'll be rightly paranoid about treatment.
The very best thing the parents can do to get him to go into and stay in *reputable* treatment is to make themselves his ally and recognize that whatever he chooses for help cannot possibly be worse than what they chose for him.
Admitting how badly they screwed up and eating double helpings of crow, while being extremely supportive of any efforts *he chooses* to pursue sobriety---those are the best chances they have for Alex to develop and maintain a clean and sober life.
He may go on a wild binge of drugs and bad behavior after they bring him home. If so, if they've handled it as I've recommended, then it was probably unavoidable. The good thing is that since he already wanted to get sober before, after the binge wears itself out--and it will--he'll want to pursue sobriety again.
All the parents have to do to get Alex sober is to grow some new and more appropriate parenting skills and learn to build a supportive alliance towards good behavior with their son instead of knocking heads with him.
I do it. By all rights, given what she has and how most kids with it funcion--or more accurately, don't function--my daughter should be much more of a handful than she is. What I do *works*, at all ages, with difficult, oppositional children.
The times my parents got the best results out of me as a teen was when they pursued exactly this strategy. The times they got the worst results was when they knocked heads with me, instead. I was a very difficult teen, my parents had excellent reason to fear for my life. I had PBD just like my daughter does. I have never met a difficult, oppositional teen for which alliance didn't work. I have met oodles of defiant teens for which parental oppositional, knocking heads was disastrous.
What I'm telling you is what the best experts--the experts the reputable, effective therapists listen to--recommend for how to handle oppositional and defiant teens.
It works.
Alex can still be induced to save himself, but his chances of success are a lot better if his parents go remove him and apply some more effective parenting techniques.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 01:57:00 PM
I love reading your posts. Every post you have written makes so much sense. One small problem, Alex's parents are sure that what they have done to him is the best for everybody, and when he gets out he will be entirely grateful to them for saving his life. So, them going there to pull him out is never going to happen. We will just have to see what happens when he turns 18.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 16, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
I wish I could figure out how to handle my daughter she is 13 and is ADHD ODD one dr. even said when she was around 10 it could be early signs of bipolar. I am at work and can't read your whole entree but will when I get home. She is such a mouthy little bit** it would be nice to be able to communicate again without a fight. I can't remember a time when if I said no or told her to do something that it wasn't a argument. She has wore me out.
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:05:00 PM
Alliance isn't the Programs' "Agreement" and "Out of Agreement."
Programs coerce teens into "agreeing" that they have all sorts of problems, or that all sorts of things are problems when the teen doesn't really agree that they are problems. So then "consequences" for being "out of agreement" are just Program-speak for punishment.
Alliance doesn't mean compliance.
Alliance can't and shouldn't be used to correct a whole laundry list of problems at once.
The kid should be presented with the one or two issues that the kid is most likely to be really grieved by. The kid might be embarrassed about his temper. Or not like his drug use. Or want to quit smoking. Or wish he and his stepparent could be civil together (which almost always isn't just a problem on the kid's side). Or be embarrassed about his grades and maybe not want straight A's, but might wish his grades were a bit higher than they are. Or maybe the kid hates that his room is a mess but doesn't want to admit that he doesn't know how to keep it clean without going to an overwhelming amount of trouble---maybe he'd like to have a cleaner room, but only if it wasn't so much hard work--and doesn't want to admit he isn't organized. Or maybe the kid hates always having his parents ride his ass for rulebreaking--like curfew---and might be more able to handle the remaining rules if some others were relaxed or if the few necessary rules were listed and the enforcement consistent but not draconian.
When a kid has an unpleasant behavior, the parent should find a positive behavior or a neutral behavior that the kid cannot possibly perform at the same time as the bad one. Make the neutral behavior into a virtue. Praise and express sincere appreciation for the kid's efforts and successes. Make every effort to catch the kid doing something right. Treat the kid as a person you respect who, deep down, wants a happy, low-hassle life and will pursue doing the right things if you appeal to his self-interest correctly.
Do not treat the kid like a puppet on strings to be rewarded or punished like a monkey in a cage. Appreciate the kid's thoughtfulness and efforts and virtuous behavior genuinely--any thoughtful, virtuous effort or behavior deserves respect and appreciation--it's not just your due or just what he should do, each such act is an effort to be nice and decent. Appreciate it and let him know.
Understand, for a teen, that the reason the kid no longer respects your judgment is because, no matter how screwed up he is, occasionally his better judgment really is better than yours. This is the root of the kid's opposition as he becomes an older teen and the times his judgment is better for his legitimate self-interest than your judgment is. It may not be in line with what you want for him, but it may be in line with what he, as the genuine person moving towards independence, wants for himself.
He will overestimate the percentage of the time his better judgment is better than yours. If he is opposing you too much, take a hard look in the mirror for your own errors of judgment.
Your job is to guess what he will want for himself as the adult *he* is becoming, not what you want for him. Then when you have to make a decision for him, or overrule a bad judgment he makes, you have to make the judgment that agrees with who *he* wants to be, not who you want him to be.
I knew a mom who actively interfered with her kid's desire to learn guitar. I don't mean just not paying for it, she absolutely didn't want to allow him to learn it because she didn't want him to be in a rock band when he grew up and she meant to make sure he wouldn't have the skills to follow that dream. Because it was something she wanted him not to have, she deliberately acted to foreclose the options he would have when he was an adult making his own decisions.
Then she wondered why the kid smashed his skateboard into her car and made a $500 dent.
Duh.
She tried to, by proxy, extend her power over his life to past the age when he would be choosing himself. Of course he was hostile.
If you don't avoid making judgments for a teen when you can, and when you have to make judgments, make them according to the kind of adult the teen wants to become, not according to the kind of adult *you* want him to be, then you get a resentful, rebellious teen. Your teen, rightly, won't trust your motives, because you're manipulating him beyond what you have any right to do. You don't own him, you don't have the right to deliberately foreclose the options he will have as an adult.
If the judgments you do make are counterproductive and have worse results than the teen's better judgments----and I'd be willing to bet $100 that this *isn't* the first time the Alex's parents judgment has been horribly worse than Alex's better judgment---you get a resentful, rebellious teen. Your teen, rightly, won't trust your judgment.
When your teen has real problems, you ally with him to overcome them one or two at a time, tackling the ones the teen finds most serious first. You don't try to handle a whole laundry list at once, it overwhelms the teen and is demoralizing and ultimately ineffective.
When your teen starts becoming alarmingly rebellious, you look hard in the mirror. You're either trying to manipulate him into an adult life you want and he doesn't, or your judgment is worse than his too much of the time.
Teens of divorce are so often rebellious because, one way or another, a failed marriage came from a sequence of huge judgment errors on the part of the parents that seriously adversely impacted the kid. They trust their better judgment more than they trust their parents---completely understandably.
If you have a history of judgment that sucks, I want you to consult an adult your child admires and wants to be like, or a family therapist who wants the kid to grow into the adult he wants to be instead of rubber-stamping your vision of him as an adult, before you make major judgments for the teen, or countermand his judgments on major issues. I want you to consult that advisor adult every once in awhile to see how you're doing.
If you can't accept that your teen has the right to grow up to be an adult *he* admires who is as close to what *he* wants to be as his abilities, talents, and hard work can take him; if you can't accept that your teen has the right to begin following his dream towards the adult *he* wants to become--if you can't do all that, then your teen will be rebellious and hostile. Your home during your kid's teenage years will be a living hell.
Alex probably admires Ashley's parents. They are probably a lot like the man he wants to be when he's grown. Alex's parents should have listened, *hard*, to Ashley's parents' advice, and they should have taken it. Or they should have gotten a family therapist that empathizes with and respects Alex's vision for himself and wouldn't rubber-stamp his parents vision for him and run their judgments for Alex by the therapist and *listened* to the therapist and taken the advice to heart.
Cause and effect.
Parents are leaders, perforce. For any leader, whether of a corporation, a platoon, a club, a church, or a charity, if your followers rebel, it's because they've lost confidence in your judgment. It can be because you dither, because your judgment has sucked in the past, because you're draconian or a martinet, or because they don't trust your motives.
If you are a leader and your followers quit following, it's your own fault unless the kid's a psychopath. Parent-child bonds are strong. The situation is seldom irretrievable. However, to retrieve the situation, the child either has to get old enough to ignore the parents' bad judgment with impunity, or the parents have to fix their leadership flaws.
Alex is not a psychopath. From his relationship with Ashley, we know he is clearly capable of empathizing with others. From his willingness to attend outpatient care, we know he is clearly capable of regret or remorse. Empathy and remorse are completely broken in psychopaths---they can't do it.
As long as the parents refuse to admit their own poor judgment is creating and maintaining this problem, and as long as Alex is dependent on them, his problems will continue.
The parents have probably owned that they must have made some mistakes, and they probably have their own theories about what those mistakes are.
Alex owns the part of his problems caused by the *way* he chose to rebel.
Alex's parents own the problem that he rebelled at all, because their poor judgment in too many instances, judgment that had worse results for him than his own better judgment would have had--in his opinion--caused his rebellion.
Many times he Monday morning quarterbacked their decisions and thought, "If we had just done this the way I wanted to do, it would have worked out better." Many times they didn't take responsibility for their bad judgments and repair that judgment problem by listening more closely to him and taking advice from other adults with better judgment than theirs.
Now their kid and their relationship with him is in one hell of a pickle, and they haven't taken responsibility for the *real* cause of their part in it yet.
They make serious judgment errors when deciding things for Alex that hurt him.
They made another huge one when they sent him to Spring Creek, and they haven't made it right by bringing him home yet.
They're still doing the same thing that got them in this pickle in the first place.
It's sad as hell.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:25:00 PM
But if a teen is not a psychopath and his rebelliousness has made the home a war zone, the parents' track record of bad judgment or other leadership errors caused it.
Leadership is a learned skill. It is the art of motivating people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. Good leadership does this without undermining the ability to motivate those folks in the future.
There are some parents out there that couldn't lead a platoon of hungry US Army Rangers to Burger King.
Leadership skills are fundamental, irreplaceable parenting tools. When parents don't have those skills, their home life with their kids will be dysfunctional and miserable. Their kids will have worse problems than the range of "normal."
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:37:00 PM
Julie -
You are amazing! Do you have an email address? I would like to have more indepth convo with you.
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 11:52:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Julie,
I wish I could figure out how to handle my daughter she is 13 and is ADHD ODD one dr. even said when she was around 10 it could be early signs of bipolar. I am at work and can't read your whole entree but will when I get home. She is such a mouthy little bit** it would be nice to be able to communicate again without a fight. I can't remember a time when if I said no or told her to do something that it wasn't a argument. She has wore me out."
Disclaimer: I am neither a medical doctor nor a licensed clinical psychologist. This is not medical advice. See your doctor.
That said, pediatric bipolar disorder is almost indistinguishable from ADHD. One of the ways they tell the disorders apart is to put the kid on a mood stabilizer. Mood stabilizers will help bipolar kids, but won't help ADHD kids. There are some drugs, like Risperdal (iirc) that have been helpful with both, but not every kid can take it. It's an atypical antipsychotic with mood stabilizing properties, but the weight gain side effect is the one that most commonly causes doctors to switch drugs. Some people gain weight on it, others either don't gain or don't gain unmanageably.
Manic episodes do brain damage. If your child is bipolar and you don't treat it with the proper medications, it gets worse.
Get a second opinion and make sure you rule out bipolar conclusively, because bipolar disorder (especially in children) is very frequently misdiagnosed as something else.
Bipolar children frequently have ADHD, too. Some doctors classify ADHD symptoms in bipolar children not as comorbid ADHD, but symptoms of bipolar disorder itself that may not respond completely to mood stabilizers. It's just a difference in how different doctors want to label the same cluster of symptoms.
My daughter, for example, is on abilify to stabilize her moods and strattera for the ADHD symptoms.
The stimulants normally used to treat ADHD can frequently (but not always) cause a bipolar child to go manic, and worsen the child's long term prognosis.
I am not trying to scare you, I'm just saying that if you haven't already gotten a second opinion from a good psychiatrist who's seen a lot of pediatric bipolar disorder, I want you to get that second opinion to ensure your child has been properly diagnosed.
Pediatric bipolar disorder isn't extremely rare, but it's rare enough that if you just go to any psychiatrist and don't check to make sure he's seen a fair bit of it, he might not be able to make an accurate call as to whether it's PBD or ADHD.
One thing you want to look at is that both bipolar disorder and ADHD are heavily genetically influenced. You want to look at your family history. PBD is frequently misdiagnosed as ADHD in children--because ADHD is so much more common. Bipolar disorder is frequently misdiagnosed as major depression in adults. If you have a lot of close relatives with a history of depression, you want to look at the bipolar diagnostic criteria and see if you think any of them have had manic episodes.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:42:00 PM
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:45:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 03:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JULIE :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I love reading your posts. Every post you have written makes so much sense. One small problem, Alex's parents are sure that what they have done to him is the best for everybody, and when he gets out he will be entirely grateful to them for saving his life. So, them going there to pull him out is never going to happen. We will just have to see what happens when he turns 18."
I guess I'm just pointing out, in a long-winded kind of way, that their serious judgment error in sending Alex to a place like SCL is almost certainly of a piece with serious judgment errors that caused him to lose confidence in them and rebel in the first place.
I'm not surprised that they still think their choice was right. Most people with very bad judgment compound initial bad decisions by refusing to honestly revisit them and question themselves about whether something that initially seemed like a good idea really was one.
Being rigid and unduly wedded to your initial judgments is one frequent cause of big judgment errors.
Most people with good judgment are flexible enough to solicit and be guided by the advice of others, and to correct initial judgment errors before their results snowball into major disasters.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JULIE :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I love reading your posts. Every post you have written makes so much sense. One small problem, Alex's parents are sure that what they have done to him is the best for everybody, and when he gets out he will be entirely grateful to them for saving his life. So, them going there to pull him out is never going to happen. We will just have to see what happens when he turns 18."
I guess I'm just pointing out, in a long-winded kind of way, that their serious judgment error in sending Alex to a place like SCL is almost certainly of a piece with serious judgment errors that caused him to lose confidence in them and rebel in the first place.
I'm not surprised that they still think their choice was right. Most people with very bad judgment compound initial bad decisions by refusing to honestly revisit them and question themselves about whether something that initially seemed like a good idea really was one.
Being rigid and unduly wedded to your initial judgments is one frequent cause of big judgment errors.
Most people with good judgment are flexible enough to solicit and be guided by the advice of others, and to correct initial judgment errors before their results snowball into major disasters.
Julie"
Julie,
Do you know Alex? His parents? Have you talked to ANYONE who knows him, besides his girlfriend?
Have you ever seen SCL? Have you talked to anyone there? Have you closely examined their policies and practices for yourself?
What extraodinary hubris to assume everyone who took part in the decision regarding how to help this young man has made a "serious error judgment!"
You're obviously intelligent, but your actions and declarations here seem incredibly disrespectful and arrogant.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 16, 2006, 06:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-15 21:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"oh sorry I thought he wanted an outpatient treatment center?
Outpatient was what he was checking into. He was not interested in inpatient and would not even discuss it with his parents
http://www.helpyourteens.com/news/impor ... wasps.html (http://www.helpyourteens.com/news/important_notice_of_lawsuite_against_wwasps.html)
http://www.voy.com/58570/ (http://www.voy.com/58570/)"
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 06:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JULIE :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I love reading your posts. Every post you have written makes so much sense. One small problem, Alex's parents are sure that what they have done to him is the best for everybody, and when he gets out he will be entirely grateful to them for saving his life. So, them going there to pull him out is never going to happen. We will just have to see what happens when he turns 18."
I guess I'm just pointing out, in a long-winded kind of way, that their serious judgment error in sending Alex to a place like SCL is almost certainly of a piece with serious judgment errors that caused him to lose confidence in them and rebel in the first place.
I'm not surprised that they still think their choice was right. Most people with very bad judgment compound initial bad decisions by refusing to honestly revisit them and question themselves about whether something that initially seemed like a good idea really was one.
Being rigid and unduly wedded to your initial judgments is one frequent cause of big judgment errors.
Most people with good judgment are flexible enough to solicit and be guided by the advice of others, and to correct initial judgment errors before their results snowball into major disasters.
Julie"
Julie,
Do you know Alex? His parents? Have you talked to ANYONE who knows him, besides his girlfriend?
Have you ever seen SCL? Have you talked to anyone there? Have you closely examined their policies and practices for yourself?
What extraodinary hubris to assume everyone who took part in the decision regarding how to help this young man has made a "serious error judgment!"
You're obviously intelligent, but your actions and declarations here seem incredibly disrespectful and arrogant."
Oh please!!!! I think Julie knows what she's talking about. As far as I am concerned anyone who sends their kid off to a WWASPS facility needs to have THEIR head examined.
You're the one whose made a huge mistake letting this happen to Alex. I guess we'll just look for you down the line like the rest of the folks who come back after they realize the HUGE mistake they've made letting this happen.
Shame on you Aunt Shelly.
Post by: 001010 on February 16, 2006, 06:52:00 PM
Quote
"You're obviously intelligent, but your actions and declarations here seem incredibly disrespectful and arrogant."
Disrespectful?
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 16, 2006, 08:12:00 PM
Julie, you are intelligent in a lot of ways.
How is your relationship with your parents? You must hold alot of angry. You should talk to someone about that! Books can't tell you everything.
You have never met any of these people but you feel you are qualified to judge? Seriously!!
I have nothing against his girlfriend or family. Ashley is also very smart in a lot of ways. She can even spell better then I and word things she writes better then I. She is also from what I hear very talented in Art. I talk to her mom a few times a week. Alex's mom also talks to them. But Ashley is also a normal teen she is immature in some ways. (Sorry Ashley I mean it in a normal progression of life kind of way.) I understand why a lot of things were said earlier on in this forum. There was no communication she was scared she wasn't sure what the plan was or where he would end up. Now there isn't many post from them in a angry way. I sure she would rather have him out of SCL. I respect that.
Ashley's mom is aloud her feelings on how she would have done things. I may be wrong and I will talk to her later about this. But with the communication open I think she understand a little more why Alex's mom put him there. Even if it is still and will never be her way. If I am wrong she will let us know. (Hi Leslie!)
There is a lot of things that you don't know. Maybe because your parents put you in one of these places for to long when you were a teen that it has made you angry and that is ok, but I want you to work through it. Trying to put people down by saying things like they want to punish him because he didn't turn out the way she wanted him to. Please!!
I understand how you feel about these places and I respect that. Maybe that is how you felt when your parents put you in one of these places. Some parents probably do. When I see kids in there for 1 2 or more years. They are sending there kids away because they are selfish, probably never bonded with them in the first place and like life better without theme. This world if full of all different kinds of people.
Maybe you should really get to know someone before you judge like that. It reflects on you.
Sounds like you have some history you haven't worked through. I believe this is one of the times you are making an judgment errors.
Anonymous,
"Oh please!!!! I think Julie knows what she's talking about. "
SOME PEOPLE REALLY SHOULDN'T THINK. HOPE YOU DIDN'T HURT YOURSELF.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 16, 2006, 08:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 15:44:00, Anonymous wrote:I responded to the question about if Alex wanted inpatient treatment and my answer went in the quote box by mistake. I am not the one who posted this message to Julie. If I have something to say, I am signed on under my screenname so there is no mistaking who is saying what.
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 13:47:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"JULIE :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I love reading your posts. Every post you have written makes so much sense. One small problem, Alex's parents are sure that what they have done to him is the best for everybody, and when he gets out he will be entirely grateful to them for saving his life. So, them going there to pull him out is never going to happen. We will just have to see what happens when he turns 18."
I guess I'm just pointing out, in a long-winded kind of way, that their serious judgment error in sending Alex to a place like SCL is almost certainly of a piece with serious judgment errors that caused him to lose confidence in them and rebel in the first place.
I'm not surprised that they still think their choice was right. Most people with very bad judgment compound initial bad decisions by refusing to honestly revisit them and question themselves about whether something that initially seemed like a good idea really was one.
Being rigid and unduly wedded to your initial judgments is one frequent cause of big judgment errors.
Most people with good judgment are flexible enough to solicit and be guided by the advice of others, and to correct initial judgment errors before their results snowball into major disasters.
Julie"
Julie,
Do you know Alex? His parents? Have you talked to ANYONE who knows him, besides his girlfriend?
Have you ever seen SCL? Have you talked to anyone there? Have you closely examined their policies and practices for yourself?
What extraodinary hubris to assume everyone who took part in the decision regarding how to help this young man has made a "serious error judgment!"
You're obviously intelligent, but your actions and declarations here seem incredibly disrespectful and arrogant."
Oh please!!!! I think Julie knows what she's talking about. As far as I am concerned anyone who sends their kid off to a WWASPS facility needs to have THEIR head examined.
You're the one whose made a huge mistake letting this happen to Alex. I guess we'll just look for you down the line like the rest of the folks who come back after they realize the HUGE mistake they've made letting this happen.
Shame on you Aunt Shelly."
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 09:02:00 PM
Perhaps, when his parents get elderly....he'll dump them off at some horrible urine smelling old folks home? Hey, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. :lol:
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 16, 2006, 09:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 18:02:00, Anonymous wrote:Whoever wrote this is not helping the situation at all. Your suggestions are real insightful!!
"The only reason he wouldn't do that is because it is time consuming. Let's just keep our fingers crossed, that he gets home safe. Screw his family, they are hopeless.
Perhaps, when his parents get elderly....he'll dump them off at some horrible urine smelling old folks home? Hey, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander. :lol: "
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 16, 2006, 09:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 10:07:00 PM
hmmm sounds like what your parents were thinking about you.
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 10:09:00 PM
Does anybody know of any elderly transport services? Look, I am half playing.........but see how it feels?
I want you to wake up.
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 10:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"His parents are hopeless?
hmmm sounds like what your parents were thinking about you."
Yes, his whole family that stands by, and lets him rot at SCL are hopeless. H-O-P-E-L-E-S-S
Anything else you would like to say?
Post by: Antigen on February 16, 2006, 10:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-15 11:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
They'll tell you they aren't hostile, because they truly aren't hostile at all to the imaginary kid they wish their kid was and dreamed their kid was going to be. They are brutally hostile to the real kid they actually have.
I actually said something very like this to my mom sometime between age 18 and when she quit sending me plaid wool pant suites as gifts.
If we had been born in Constantinople, then most of us would have said: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." If our parents had lived on the banks of the Ganges, we would have been worshipers of Siva, longing for the heaven of Nirvana.
--
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 16, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
I am not in any way bashing Ashley or her Mom.
I never claimed to be perfect. Neither has anyone in my family.
I find it interesting that you without knowing anyone took the teenage girls side.
That is basically what I was trying to get at.
Anonymous,
You are such a creak head. Come up with something interesting to say. Ya we are hopeless.. did you forget that not all of us can go get him out. I think that was covered in page 5. Try to keep up. Why should I believe someone like you. Maybe nobody has ever told you, but when you talk to people the way you do. All of a sudden they don't hear you anymore.
POOF gone.. Anonymous who...... [ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-02-16 20:35 ]
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 16, 2006, 11:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 19:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry I am just saying how I feel! I'm not calling you names, or being disrespectful. I am just letting Alex know that when his family starts getting older, and really needs him most (like he needs you now, instead he gets strangers) that he dumps you at the old folks home. Actually, I think he should have you woken up in the middle of the night, and transported.
Does anybody know of any elderly transport services? Look, I am half playing.........but see how it feels?
I want you to wake up."
You want to know how it feels. It feels great! That is the best idea I bet you have ever had. I would rather be in a nursing home then interupt my kids lifes. I don't want them changing my diapers. So try again my Anonymous friend.
Maybe the kids should take care of there parents. So they can abuse them right. Now see how much better you could have done. keep trying you might get there.
Post by: Antigen on February 16, 2006, 11:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 19:57:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
I find it interesting that you without knowing anyone took the teenage girls side.
The teenaged girl is not keeping this kid locked up in a known abusive facility while lying to the courts that he's receiving substance abuse treatment.
Besides, we're not all child haters. Some of us actually like teenagers and presume them innocent unless they prove otherwise. I don't know where you get the idea that being old gives you a pass.
You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles Austin Beard
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 11:37:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 16, 2006, 11:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 20:35:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 19:57:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
I find it interesting that you without knowing anyone took the teenage girls side.
The teenaged girl is not keeping this kid locked up in a known abusive facility while lying to the courts that he's receiving substance abuse treatment.
Besides, we're not all child haters. Some of us actually like teenagers and presume them innocent unless they prove otherwise. I don't know where you get the idea that being old gives you a pass.You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence.
--Charles Austin Beard
"
I couldn't have said it better.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 16, 2006, 11:57:00 PM
Interesting!
I don't hate teenagers. I just realize now that I am older, how much I have learned and how silly I was. We all go through it. Like I said I am not in any way trying to bash or put down Ashley. I just remember that age. Plus I know a lot more then you do about what both kids were doing. I know I know..What teenagers do. Maybe even a little more then some.
Who said they were lying to the court? Have you been in court? When is the next hearing? Can you save me a seat please?
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2006, 12:38:00 AM
Anywayzzzz..........it's pretty simple:
Alex has a drug problem. I know what it's like to have a drug problem. The first thing you do when you are in a drug rehab, after you detox, is learn what it is that triggers your drug use. Then you try to find other more positive ways of dealing with your emotions. It's so easy when you are an alcoholic or a drug user to use drugs when your emotions trigger them.
SCL has no clue how to deal with substance abuse. They try to kill your spirit with fucked up mind control games. You come out of there hungry for drugs. If I were Alex, and was a "drug addict" I would be instantly looking for something to numb my brain after I just got out of a place that fucked with it for the last 8 months.
That's what he'll end up doing, because you sent him to a behaivor modification camp, and not a real rehab that deals mostly with drug abuse.
Who's fault? Yours. You had a few months before he turned 18 to make an impression, instead your going to make things worse. We've all told you, but you are morons.
Sorry, but you asked for it.
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2006, 01:55:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 17, 2006, 06:58:00 AM
OK I sent him there... Shows how much you pay attention. :wstupid:
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2006, 09:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 20:57:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Who said they were lying to the court? Have you been in court? When is the next hearing? Can you save me a seat please?"
Nope. Don't need to go to court. Public information. Click on Case Look-up - its in black and white. Read for yourself.
http://macombcountymi.gov/circuitcourt/ (http://macombcountymi.gov/circuitcourt/)
Post by: 69 on February 17, 2006, 09:33:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 19:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sorry I am just saying how I feel! I'm not calling you names, or being disrespectful. I am just letting Alex know that when his family starts getting older, and really needs him most (like he needs you now, instead he gets strangers) that he dumps you at the old folks home. Actually, I think he should have you woken up in the middle of the night, and transported.
Does anybody know of any elderly transport services? Look, I am half playing.........but see how it feels?
I want you to wake up."
That old folks home comparison never gets old, it really shows how ridiculous this whole thing is, doesn't it? What if an adult child had their parent kidnapped in the middle of the night, in the same way the teen transports do? Then sent then to some isolated old-folks home where they receive the bare minimum of care, and are forced to attent LGAT seminars to make them appreciate how much we do for them at home. It wouldn't fly, not for one second, but it does with teenagers for some reason.
As much as I still resent my father for sending me to an abusive facility, and then refusing to believe me when I told him so, I could never do the same to him. We are not the same type of person, which I GLADLY accept. I know a lot of traumatized people can go on to become the abuser themselves (i.e. ex-students who work for programs), but I really want to break that cycle for myself. I hope this is the last generation of parents who goes screaming to a group of unqualified lifespring cult members with fancy brochures and slick salespeople when their teen smokes pot or talks back to teachers. I assume the cycle of ignorance can't continue on forever. So the more attention brought to this topic the better, IMO.
And the anon who says his drug use will only get worse as a byproduct of SCL couldn't be more right. That's why I get so sad to see other kids sent there, not just because I know of the possible abuse they might receive, but knowing that there is better, and real treatment options out there, and some kids are really getting screwed over by not getting access to that real treatment. Hopefully one day they will if they truly need it. Any kid sent their with a psychological or drug problem (most?) are getting royally screwed, there is no other way to say it, sorry parents -- no disrespect, it's the truth.
No laws, however stringent, can make the idle industrious, the thriftless provident, or the drunken sober
--Samuel Stiles
Post by: Anonymous on February 17, 2006, 09:40:00 AM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on February 17, 2006, 10:21:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-16 17:12:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Ashley's mom is aloud her feelings on how she would have done things. I may be wrong and I will talk to her later about this. But with the communication open I think she understand a little more why Alex's mom put him there. Even if it is still and will never be her way. If I am wrong she will let us know. (Hi Leslie!)
Hi Pam!
Yea, you are right. We have discussed this over and over. I do not agree with what was done, and would never do it; but Alex is not my kid. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't be concerned for him and how he will be when he does come home. Hopefully, things will be the way Jacki and Joe are hoping for, but I guess we won't know until he gets home.
In the meantime, hang in there with your daughter! Things will get better, just keep the lines of communication with her open, even if she keeps shutting you out. Eventually, in my opinion, she will come around. Nobody ever told us it would be easy! Be strong!
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 17, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
I realize one day she will love me again. I also know she loves me know she just doesn't know it..lol
I will never give up. I was a lot like her it took until I moved out on my own before I seen half the things my parents said to me.
I do miss having a fun loving relationship with her though. It feels as if I never have had it. I am reading and have read so many books. I just hope soon I find what works for us, and find the right therapist that she will connect with.
When they are cute little babies you sure don't think about the teen years.
Post by: Antigen on February 17, 2006, 10:58:00 AM
Let me tell you a little about how my family came out of cultland. We're divided, to say the least. I went through a longer and more abusive program than my older brothers and sisters did. They really never did understand that till fairly recently when I started documenting and hawking news on the issue.
So, for decades, my family just couldn't understand what I was so upset about and just concluded that I was a whiney brat who couldn't get over it.
Straight in the early `80's was just many orders of magnitude more militant and fanatical than the Seed in the early to mid `70's in Ft. Lauderdale. And yet my mother still thinks I deserved every bit of it and should be grateful. To this day, she probably believes that, because I never completed the program, I must now be some kind of junkie. Any evidence to the contrary, well she just dismisses that as clever deception.
So I just don't talk to her. No point. On a good day, she's patronizing. If she ever finds me vulnerable or needy she's downright dangerous to my sanity and liberty.
So my mom got sick. My sister, the nurse who pretty much took charge of her care and advocacy, asked me around that time if I wanted to have anything to do w/ decisions regarding our mom. I told her no, not really, but let me know when you're ready to pick out a nursing home. I wasn't kidding, either.
Florida, where I come from, has some notoriously abusive adult care facilities. Ironically enough, former Straight spokeswoman, Joy Margolis, was (maybe still is) spokeswoman for Lutheran Services of Florida, which generated some buzz and scandal a few years ago for Sr. Abuse.
There are a great many questions concerning The Seed that need to be answered. Both the methods of "obtaining" Seedlings and the method of indoctrination need to be aired so that all can see how close 1984 really is.
John Henninger Attorneys and Counselor at Law, Clearwater, FL
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 17, 2006, 12:39:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 02:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-17 06:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-16 20:57:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Who said they were lying to the court? Have you been in court? When is the next hearing? Can you save me a seat please?"
Nope. Don't need to go to court. Public information. Click on Case Look-up - its in black and white. Read for yourself.
http://macombcountymi.gov/circuitcourt/ (http://macombcountymi.gov/circuitcourt/)
"
It is down until Tuesday 2-21-06. I did however send out a letter snail mail to the judge. It was 3 pages long, and handwritten (printer is broken!).
I hope everyone is doing there part.
Post by: 69 on February 20, 2006, 04:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-17 09:39:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"This world is messed up in many ways. All we can do is move on. Realize now that we are adults it is up to us to put the past aside and move forward. "
It would be easier to move on if the systematic mind-fucking would cease, but this is a business that seems to be growing, fast. What's wrong with spending some free time typing about our experiences on the 'net talking to other survivors... is that not moved on enough in your opinion? Take this as example, what if your father would lock you up in the backyard in a small homemade dungeon, fed you limited meals, and kept you in there for 3 days at a time when you misbehaved. He didn't allow any contact with the outside world, no tv, no phone, no newspaper, nothing. Every couple months he'd keep you up for three days with only a few hours sleep each night bombarding you emotionally. First he'd tear you down until you were a crying, pathetic kid just wanting to be loved. Then he would mold you into the child he wanted you to be, and he would "love" you if you acted a certain way. It was unnatural, but at least you got attention from him, and felt like a human being. If you didn't, you'd be locked up in the dungeon, or locked in your room all day and have to write 10,000 word handwritten essays about what you did wrong. After two years of this treatment, he felt you were ready to go outside. But you had to sign a strict contract (aren't contracts for people who don't trust each other?) and if you broke any rule, you'd be put back into the "program" at home, dungeon and all.
Once you reached the age of majority, and left your father's house, I'm sure there would be some lasting negative effects. People in your life might even say "you are an adult now, it's time to move on." Okay -- that's fair enough for someone who hadn't lived through the experience themselves. But, please, imagine -- if you are that child -- and now you know your father has adopted four children from an orphanage overseas. He is now the legal father of these kids. It suddenly becomes a lot harder to ignore doesn't it? Knowing how he treated you, what he had done to you, knowing after all these years you still have nightmares... it would be a lot harder to ignore then... wouldn't you agree?
Now, let's say your 'father' is a group of paid staff members, and your 'home' is a privately run facility in the backwoods of Montana called Spring Creek Lodge. Would this make the story any less horrifying? It shouldn't. But for some people, it does, I'm not sure why. Maybe they trust organizations with fancy brochures, and assume if all the abuse allegations were true, somebody would have already done something about it.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 05:08:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 20, 2006, 05:53:00 PM
I was talking about the hateful mean things that are said about Alex's parents without really knowing them.
When you want to get your child help, you call a teen hotline you get WWASPS phone numbers you call they tell you all the great things that will come out of the program your hopeful, scared, depressed. Because this is the hardest decision you have to make. You have people telling you everything you want to hear. Then you get to this site. Your being put down things are being made up. Your mind is already f*ck*d up. Most people will at this time when it is really needed go to the nicer more understanding people. Isn't that how they get kids in these programs?
I can't even image exactly how I would feel. I use to say I would do this if this happen. Then when it happens I have never done exactly what I thought I would. So I have learned in my life that If/when put in this position I have no idea what I would do. The mind is a mysterious thing
Not all parents look at there kids and say look at you, you are a embarrassment to the family. You are going here to become what I wanted. This is your punishment for not having the personality or values I wanted you to have. You will stay there until you are molded, programmed what ever.
So to say the things that Julie and the Anonymous poster said. All it would do is turn people off. Not take it as serious. It would be more productive if said in a more kinder way at first then tell your story and see what they get from it.
I understand these things happen to all of you and I can't even begin to understand how it makes you feel or how you can't let things go.
I was trying to say if you are trying to reach parents to get their kids out of WWASPS. That is not the productive way to treat a parent looking for answers. I want you to tell people but at least do it so they will listen.
Just as I can't understand what you went through. Or how it would make me feel. Because I have never been there. I and many others can't imagin what parents are going through and how they feel. Because I have never been in this position. I am sure it would affect you different because of your life experiances.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 20, 2006, 06:28:00 PM
The problem I am having is that there really is
parents that are not trying to get rid of their kids they are trying to get them back on the right track that are finding these places and it isn't productive for them to be treated that way.
I know it wasn't right for you to be treated the way you were. But they haven't had time to understand it or hear half the stuff before they leave and never come back. Maybe the difference would be how it is delivered to them.
You want them to understand what you are/did go through but you don't care to try and understand what they are going through. To me this is the problem with the communication.
"Saying something like I know it is hard you feel like your loosing your kid that is ok. But please before you do anything else please read these story's before you send or leave your child there. Understand that there are a lot of schools associated with WWASPS. Here are a few tips on finding a better place.....
I am not the best at writing or saying all the right things. I can only tell you that this experience for me took longer to get an oppinion on WWASPS program's because I felt like I always had to defend myself of family. Waisted time instead of getting the answers needed. If I was the parent I don't know if in that mind set of emotions going on if I would have stayed long enough to get an opinion.
Post by: BuzzKill on February 20, 2006, 06:35:00 PM
As for the forums - I'm afraid it is just the nature of the beast that people will be insulted. This is true of even the most gentle and moderated forums. On a forum like this one - you have to expect a few punches to the face - especially if you go aggravating the natives.
There are plenty of sites were you can gather tons of information, with out being burdened by unpleasant verbal attacks. However - if your child is in the program - you will have to face many an unpleasant truth.
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 08:51:00 PM
I really have to bite my tongue after reading posts like this, and I notice a pattern with the parents who post here. That is, they seem to want to shift the responsibility away from themsleves regarding sending their child away. They were "duped" by marketers, this forum is too "scary" to stay and read, etcetera. Parents, step up and take some responsibility for your own kid! If a few bad words over the internet scares you away from information so important to the well being of your kid, you need get real and wake up! The kid is locked up being berated with negativity 24/7, and you can't deal with a few baghead trolling comments? Come on, reality check folks. Seriously. These posts make me want to scream, because they lock up the kids in such a horribly negative environment, fornits is a tea party compared to a long stay at SCL. You cannot even begin to compare. So to hear a parent complain about fornits, while their kid is locked up in SCL is disheartening to say the least.
When this thread first began it started to become clear to me Alex wasn't coming home until he turned 18. The parents who are sincere about keeping their kid safe are the ones who spend a day or two on this site reading and asking questions, and then immediatley go and pull thier kid out. They are the parents who are genuinely surprised at what we survivors are saying, they truly were in the dark. But a family who has kept a kid locked up for months now, still claiming if this forum was just a little bit nicer to them, then maybe he would come home is a complete fallacy. And a waste of a lot of people's time.
Post by: 69 on February 20, 2006, 08:51:00 PM
I really have to bite my tongue after reading posts like this, and I notice a pattern with the parents who post here. That is, they seem to want to shift the responsibility away from themsleves regarding sending their child away. They were "duped" by marketers, this forum is too "scary" to stay and read, etcetera. Parents, step up and take some responsibility for your own kid! If a few bad words over the internet scares you away from information so important to the well being of your kid, you need get real and wake up! The kid is locked up being berated with negativity 24/7, and you can't deal with a few baghead trolling comments? Come on, reality check folks. Seriously. These posts make me want to scream, because they lock up the kids in such a horribly negative environment, fornits is a tea party compared to a long stay at SCL. You cannot even begin to compare. So to hear a parent complain about fornits, while their kid is locked up in SCL is disheartening to say the least.
When this thread first began it started to become clear to me Alex wasn't coming home until he turned 18. The parents who are sincere about keeping their kid safe are the ones who spend a day or two on this site reading and asking questions, and then immediatley go and pull thier kid out. They are the parents who are genuinely surprised at what we survivors are saying, they truly were in the dark. But a family who has kept a kid locked up for months now, still claiming if this forum was just a little bit nicer to them, then maybe he would come home is a complete fallacy. And a waste of a lot of people's time.
In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution."
--Thomas Jefferson 1798
Post by: 69 on February 20, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
To regard Christ as God, and to pray to him, are to my mind the greatest possible sacrilege.
--Leo Tolstoy, Russian revolutionary
Post by: Antigen on February 20, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
I really have to bite my tongue after reading posts like this, and I notice a pattern with the parents who post here. That is, they seem to want to shift the responsibility away from themsleves regarding sending their child away. They were "duped" by marketers, this forum is too "scary" to stay and read, etcetera.
Well, you're not wrong. And, of course, I'd still have you over for dinner if my daughter were single and looking. :wink:
But there's something to the bit about the industry duping parents. But it's not just the active players in the industry. It runs much deeper. Social commentators like Mike Males have a good deal to say about why Americans, particularly, fear their own children and fear for them. Other researchers, like Asch talk about the stealthy power of peer pressure, even on adults.
Then there's the Stanford experiment, well they couldn't even complete it because the researchers were fond the effects of that environment on the subjects as well as on themselves as observers so deeply disturbing. That has a lot to do with it. The reason why the staff, edcons and parents are so convincing is that they believe in what they're selling, just like the coke dealer I used to know.
Point is, there is a pervasive false perception of kids as a dangerous, dead end generation of social monsters that leaves the relatively normal anxieties of past generations of parents in the dust. And the TOUGHLOVE Hategroup has a huge following of impressive, pillar of society type people. It's pretty compelling, and yet entirely misguided.
People do need to understand this. It's worth discussing.
Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the
tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason.
Why I Live at the PO (http://art-bin.com/art/or_weltypostoff.html)[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-02-20 18:29 ]
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 20, 2006, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 10:05:00 PM
Quote
I didn't relize this was just a forum for everyone to complain or talk or what ever.
from the front page:
This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk.
Warning: this website promotes anonymous posting and parent/ program bashing without accountability. Have at it!
Post by: 69 on February 20, 2006, 10:16:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 18:51:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
""Coddle the parents." I knew that was exactly where someone would take it. It kills me how many times I have said this... I DO NOT HAVE A CHILD IN WWASPS PROGRAM! So the parents are not complaining. I am !!!! I didn't relize this was just a forum for everyone to complain or talk or what ever. I thought this was a forum to inform people. If you were serious about getting your word out maybe taking some criticism would help. So go back to normal talking to each other reaching nobody but the x students that will get the program's closed real quick. Good luck on everyone journey."
There is over 800 posts in this thread, have you not been thoroughly informed? It's obvious many people are serious about getting the word out. This thread contains more infromation than any one could ask for about SCL and the risks and dangers of the program. If you are offended by a couple nameless anons rude remarks and want to leave, that is your loss. We've all had to deal with it on this forum.
What makes you think programs will ever be closed if parents can be presented with 800 posts of information showing that this program is abusive, ineffective and damaging and still nothing is done? What does that say? It's not about a lack of information.
When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
--
Anonymous . . . for obvious reasons
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 20, 2006, 10:45:00 PM
GOOD LUCK TO ALL AND THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION GIVEN.
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 11:32:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 11:34:00 PM
Quote
I often worry that I am permenantly messed up by those seminars
You are not the only one.
BTW - I've read this post word for word in another thread, did someone just copy/paste this?
WHen were you there BTW?
Post by: Anonymous on February 20, 2006, 11:36:00 PM
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 100#173871 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13071&forum=44&start=100#173871)
What family were you in?
When were you there?
Post by: Antigen on February 21, 2006, 12:10:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I probably wouldn't say I'm grateful for my time spent there at all - but I don't regret it. If I hadn't been there I woulda gotten worse and worse - I even relapsed after the program but not on any of my problem drugs - I still say away from them. It helped me realize that I am not invinceable and bad things can happen to me. I had no concept of that as a teen. Also - the ability to be blatantly honest with my mom and work out our problems is something I am definitely grateful for. Before getting arrested and being sent to SCL I hadn't spoken to my mom in almost a year. We had a really bad falling out. I was in a bad situation in general and I never would've gotten out without something to help me realize that. I don't agree with everything they do at all, and I often worry that I am permenantly messed up by those seminars, but I had no sense of self worth or dignity before going there and I attribute that positive change to the program."
Oh, dear God, PLEASE bust yourself. I won't explicitly state where this is coming from, but I certainly will never read anything you ever say from here on out w/ even a modicum of credulity. That certainly will show in my responses.
In Straight, we had a hard rule. It was the first and most impotent rule, Honesty. We all knew that that term in that Twilight Zone environment had a preverse definition. What's yours? Whatever it is, use it now! But use it according to the more commonly accepted definition.
When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd
Post by: Antigen on February 21, 2006, 12:13:00 AM
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry
Post by: 69 on February 21, 2006, 12:25:00 AM
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trust either of them
P.J. O'Rourke
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2006, 06:43:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2006, 08:17:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2006, 08:51:00 AM
http://maxweb01.macombcountymi.gov/pa/p ... lst?640319 (http://maxweb01.macombcountymi.gov/pa/pa.urd/pamw2000.docket_lst?640319)
"in housing drug treatment" ???
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 21, 2006, 11:41:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-20 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I probably wouldn't say I'm grateful for my time spent there at all - but I don't regret it. If I hadn't been there I woulda gotten worse and worse - I even relapsed after the program but not on any of my problem drugs - I still say away from them. It helped me realize that I am not invinceable and bad things can happen to me. I had no concept of that as a teen. Also - the ability to be blatantly honest with my mom and work out our problems is something I am definitely grateful for. Before getting arrested and being sent to SCL I hadn't spoken to my mom in almost a year. We had a really bad falling out. I was in a bad situation in general and I never would've gotten out without something to help me realize that. I don't agree with everything they do at all, and I often worry that I am permenantly messed up by those seminars, but I had no sense of self worth or dignity before going there and I attribute that positive change to the program."
Sorry thought I logged in. Just a post I found. You said this forum was open to both views.
I found this one so I posted it.
"This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."
Post by: Anonymous on February 21, 2006, 11:44:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-21 08:41:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-20 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I probably wouldn't say I'm grateful for my time spent there at all - but I don't regret it. If I hadn't been there I woulda gotten worse and worse - I even relapsed after the program but not on any of my problem drugs - I still say away from them. It helped me realize that I am not invinceable and bad things can happen to me. I had no concept of that as a teen. Also - the ability to be blatantly honest with my mom and work out our problems is something I am definitely grateful for. Before getting arrested and being sent to SCL I hadn't spoken to my mom in almost a year. We had a really bad falling out. I was in a bad situation in general and I never would've gotten out without something to help me realize that. I don't agree with everything they do at all, and I often worry that I am permenantly messed up by those seminars, but I had no sense of self worth or dignity before going there and I attribute that positive change to the program."
Sorry thought I logged in. Just a post I found. You said this forum was open to both views.
I found this one so I posted it.
"This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."
"
Oh but it's a very different thing to pass yourself off as a kid who went through there and just happened along here to post. Why the need to post it in different locations? Did you forget both times to log in?
Post by: 69 on February 21, 2006, 11:49:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-21 08:41:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-20 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I probably wouldn't say I'm grateful for my time spent there at all - but I don't regret it. If I hadn't been there I woulda gotten worse and worse - I even relapsed after the program but not on any of my problem drugs - I still say away from them. It helped me realize that I am not invinceable and bad things can happen to me. I had no concept of that as a teen. Also - the ability to be blatantly honest with my mom and work out our problems is something I am definitely grateful for. Before getting arrested and being sent to SCL I hadn't spoken to my mom in almost a year. We had a really bad falling out. I was in a bad situation in general and I never would've gotten out without something to help me realize that. I don't agree with everything they do at all, and I often worry that I am permenantly messed up by those seminars, but I had no sense of self worth or dignity before going there and I attribute that positive change to the program."
Sorry thought I logged in. Just a post I found. You said this forum was open to both views.
I found this one so I posted it.
"This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."
"
You've shown your true colors. ::noway:: ::noway::
The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure.
-- Albert Einstein
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 21, 2006, 11:59:00 AM
I don't care if you believe me or not. I am not that stupid I know there are people checking web addresses or what ever you call them. So why would I do it on purpose. You told me you were checking ip addresses so why would I do that. You should be smarter then that. :exclaim:
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 21, 2006, 12:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-21 08:49:00, Exit Plan wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-21 08:41:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-02-20 20:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I probably wouldn't say I'm grateful for my time spent there at all - but I don't regret it. If I hadn't been there I woulda gotten worse and worse - I even relapsed after the program but not on any of my problem drugs - I still say away from them. It helped me realize that I am not invinceable and bad things can happen to me. I had no concept of that as a teen. Also - the ability to be blatantly honest with my mom and work out our problems is something I am definitely grateful for. Before getting arrested and being sent to SCL I hadn't spoken to my mom in almost a year. We had a really bad falling out. I was in a bad situation in general and I never would've gotten out without something to help me realize that. I don't agree with everything they do at all, and I often worry that I am permenantly messed up by those seminars, but I had no sense of self worth or dignity before going there and I attribute that positive change to the program."
Sorry thought I logged in. Just a post I found. You said this forum was open to both views.
I found this one so I posted it.
"This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."
"
You've shown your true colors. ::noway:: ::noway::The strength of the Constitution lies entirely in the determination of each citizen to defend it. Only if every single citizen feels duty bound to do his share in this defense are constitutional rights secure."
-- Albert Einstein
WHATEVER it is ok for you to do it. Because you noticed right away sorry I went to bed. Get over yourself :exclaim:
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 21, 2006, 12:56:00 PM
I don't know what you are talking about posting as a student in another forum? I have never, you can go back and check ip addresses. I don't know how to do these things so how would I know what you may have said without signing in?
If I would have gotten caught I would have just never posted again. Don't you think? Don't you remember the day I was told I believe it was CMM was tracking ip addresses? I do! So again why would I do that?
I guess that is your choice to believe or not.
If you check like I just did in the forum I found that post. I asked when they graduated and what family they were in. I wasn't signed in sorry it was late and I get up at 4 am for work. I didn't notice. Check that ip address to the one that posted it in that forum. It wasnt me pretending to be a student.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 21, 2006, 06:16:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 22, 2006, 10:04:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 22, 2006, 10:31:00 PM
Tools, you think he has gotten tools from SCL? Are you being serious? I give that place zero credit. I don't want to be negative, but unless he is given real treatment he will most definately relapse. So, be prepared, and prepare his parents for yet another let down! Damn you Alex, what the heck is wrong with you boy?!!
He needs to be in real treatment, near his home so his parents can participate.
As far as him telling you what really happens at these places........I'm sure he wants a roof over his head when he turns 18. If he's smart he will not rock the boat.
Look we all do crazy shit in our youth. For example, when I turned 18, I was at a party in Atherton, CA. I got into an arguement with my boyfriend (he was scamming on another girl, but I was doing the exact same with the boy whose house it was). Anyway, we had a couple beers in us.......I went to leave the party..........I got in my car........backed outta the driveway with my boyfriend chasing after me.......I put it in 1st gear to go towards home.........he laid down in front of my car......I paused......put it in reverse......I thought he was just laying infront of my car...........but his legs were rapped around my tire! I ran over one of his legs........OUCH.........he was pissed!!!! I stopped when I realized I ran over something...........he ran and did a flying leap onto my car hood, and wrapped his arms around my windsheild............he was yelling and screaming at me.........I couldn't think clearly....I was scared........I drove all the way home to Portola Valley with him on the hood of my car. How stupid of me, I could've accidently killed him! Shit happens, I got home, he started breaking everything in sight, cops were called he went to Juvy. We made up the day after :smile:.
What I am trying to say, is we all do stupid shit! I got a little off track.......sorry! I doubt he deserved what he got.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 22, 2006, 10:59:00 PM
He knows after 18 his Parents, Aunt Shelly or I or his Girlfriend wouldn't leave him there.
We will see how things went for him when he gets home until then it isn't worth chatting here. We have never been in a program like this or knew someone in a program like this. So I guess we can not completely relate to anyone on this forum.
Post by: AtomicAnt on February 23, 2006, 12:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-22 19:04:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Received a letter from Alex. He is worried about coming home and facing everyone. He won't have to worry about that because there is no one here that will judge him. I'm sure when he reads all of this posted here he will see how many people care about his welfare, even those he doesn't know. That seems to be the whole of all of this, his welfare. Everyone involved here wants what is best for him. It's just everyones perspective is different. We all come from different situations and are looking at this from different points of view. Parents, family, friends and all who have posted here are coming from different sides of this. NOT to make light of all that some of you have gone through, Alex has made no impression that he is being abused. He is smart enough to get through to one of us in his letters or phone calls. Even if they are monitored there would be some sign. He is opening up to his parents and communicating. That is something that has not happened in a long time. He also realizes all the things he took for granted when he had them and the things drugs took away from his life. I don't believe that would have happened had he stayed home. He is also sober. That in itself is HUGE. There may be a time when he comes home that he will relapse. Just maybe now he will have the tools to help himself. There are success stories. I hope Alex will be one of them. "
One of the most insidious aspects of these programs is that one can never tell what is real, what is situational adaptation, and what is outright acting. When phrases like "...realizes all the things he took for granted..." show up, this sounds like the program putting words into his mouth, so to speak. He may or may not believe them. It is the program's defense for their use of deprivation. Keep in mind, Alex cannot progress in the levels unless he writes things like this, so of course he will write things like this.
One problem with the "tools" that these programs provide is that they are so very fragile. They are fragile because there is no balance. In a program environment where dissenting views cannot even be spoken, the graduate has no 'tools' to defend his new thinking against outside critics. The new behaviors were brought about by force, not by reason and so usually cannot stand against a good counter argument. The program's views only stand up when the subject is isolated. Inside the program, the isolation is obvious. Outside the program, the rules are to stay away from 'negative influences' which means any dissenting opinion. This is a form of isolation. The program would say this is avoiding negative influences. But is it really a means to avoid valid opposing views? If the program is really so strong and so right, it would not fear opposing views, but would welcome debate with confidence.
"Alex has made no impression that he is being abused." Abuse is a loaded term. To me, anyone forced into this kind of incarceration and forced to endure others exerting this level of control over him is already being abused. Physical assaults are not required, but an ever present danger given the programs' penchant for 'restraint.' Since he has completed a seminar, he has suffered verbal abuse whether he or you recognize it or not.
Post by: BuzzKill on February 23, 2006, 12:36:00 PM
This is why you must ask very specific questions.
Such as:
What did you have to eat today? For the past few days?
Have you been physically hurt in any way, for any reason? Have you witnessed anyone else being hurt?
Have you heard others screaming b/c they are being hurt?
Explain what a "stress position" is - and ask if they have ever been forced to maintain one - or, are they aware of others who have?
Have you been called derogatory names? Shamed in front of others? Made to confess embarrassing secretes?
Do you feel pressured to accept ideas that are not your own? Are you fearful of the consequences of speaking your mind?
How much sleep do you get a night? Is it uninterrupted and restful?
How many kids are in your dorm/room? Does everyone have their own bed?
Are you afraid?
Hungry?
Tired?
Stressed / anxious?
Embarrassed / Humiliated?
Sick and unattended?
Aware of others who are?
And, you must keep in mind - if you ask these questions in the presence of staff, you will get responses "supportive" of the program; Because the kid will be far to concerned with the consequences of manipulating, to tell you anything non-supportive of the program.
In fact, this fear can run so deep, and the paranoia be so profound; the trust between parent and child so eroded, that even in private, they may not feel safe confiding to the Program Parent what is going on.
And this is assuming they recognize what they are being made to endure, is abusive thought reform to begin with.
The problem is, these kids are conditioned to believe they deserve this kind of treatment, and that this is what it takes to save them from death or prison.
The parents too, are conditioned to accept treatment and behavior they would never have agreed to, had it been explained up front at the beginning.
Its is a diabolically clever little scam these folks got going.
Program parents - *Please *Please * Please, get yourself a copy of "Help at Any Cost" and Read it!
Do it today.
Post by: out for a cause on February 23, 2006, 03:34:00 PM
WWASP schools are doing damage to our children
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 24, 2006, 11:24:00 AM
Then you have WWASPS, and it's a complete different story..........it's splashed all over the net. Kids are starting groups all over the country to have these places shut down. Newspaper articles are done on them on a regular basis, TV shows, they are in court all the time trying to put out fires.
Sorry, but it just seems so obvious to me that there is something wrong with these programs.
What do you guys think?
Post by: Anonymous on February 24, 2006, 02:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-24 08:24:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"You know what I find really strange, is I went to a program called Heritage School located in Provo, Utah. Anyway, they opened in 1985. They are considered a theraputic boarding school.........they have a level and point system. They have hundreds of kids in their program at a time.........why can I not find one website, or any cases or tales of abuse???
Then you have WWASPS, and it's a complete different story..........it's splashed all over the net. Kids are starting groups all over the country to have these places shut down. Newspaper articles are done on them on a regular basis, TV shows, they are in court all the time trying to put out fires.
Sorry, but it just seems so obvious to me that there is something wrong with these programs.
What do you guys think?"
I think everyone's jumping on a bandwagon, frankly. Big fat target, so the thinking is, Gee let's shoot this one down and the others will follow.
Good example: CAICA---no experience with WWASPS whatsoever. They actually had a beef with someone else, but when that didn't work, they jumped on the bandwagon about wwasps. They've still never seen any of the wwasps schools.
If you look closely, the many stories out there are mostly repetition of one or two things--very old events that never even stood up in court-- or stories about people writing stories. There's cause for caution here: the number of times something's repeated or told another way is no indication of truth or accuracy.
Post by: out for a cause on February 24, 2006, 05:16:00 PM
As a mother to you I say ..........You do not have a clue want you are talking about. Parents take their kids out of WWASP schools everyday and are afraid to tell others how terrible the schools really are.
CHECK THEM OUT
The more BORING a child is, the more the parents,
when showing off the child, receive adulation for
being GOOD PARENTS -- because they have a TAME
CHILD-CREATURE in their house.
--Frank Zappa
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 11:13:00 AM
Since I have been to a WWASPS program, I know exactly what I am talking about. When I tell my story, it doesn't change??? So, it may be on more then one website? It doesn't mean that I am trying to make it sound like it's happened to multiple kids. It only sounds that way because it has, and because there are so many children out there that have had similar experiences.
Whatever, I know that what I am saying is the truth. The WWASPS schools, and the way they are structured, is just wrong. The more I read about how they handle these teens, the more I get upset. Their fault, not mine, and nobody else's. They created the program the way it is, and hired the people they did, and everything was done with them knowing of it, and giving it their approval.
I don't feel sorry for what happens to them. They didn't feel bad enough for me, when my parents were using them to just hold me until I turned 18. They just took the money my parents gave them. They are not as selective as they should be, about the kids they take. It's all about the money, it always has been.
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 12:04:00 PM
Did anyone send this link?
Post by: Ashley's Mom on February 27, 2006, 12:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-27 09:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"How many people sent letters to the judge?
Did anyone send this link?"
I have no idea, but I really wish someone could have sent the Judge "Help At Any Cost", and I hope she reads the letter/letters she received!
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 12:37:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 12:38:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 12:42:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 03:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 04:33:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 04:56:00 PM
http://maxweb01.macombcountymi.gov/pa/p ... lst?640319 (http://maxweb01.macombcountymi.gov/pa/pa.urd/pamw2000.docket_lst?640319)
You can receive updates through here. I believe what it says, is that court will not proceed without defendant being present. It looks like court is rescheduled for 3/6/06 at 8:30am. I hope that we were able to help. Good luck Alex.
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 05:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-27 13:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He was orderd home. Or the Montana police will be ordered to get him and send him home."
A tiny little smile just crept across my face. :smile:
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 05:31:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 05:47:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on February 27, 2006, 06:03:00 PM
Yep, you read it right. The judge ordered Alex home, if not, she said she would issue a bench warrant and have him brought home. I just want to thank all of you who wrote letters to the judge, as she did bring that up in court and I think that played a big part in her decision to get him out of that place. I believe he has to be here for his pretrial on March 6th. I guess there is some justice after all! Now, we all have to just pray that Alex is okay, and is ready to deal with the courts! If you have any other questions, just ask and I will try to answer.
I must say there were tears of joy today! Thanks again!
Leslie
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 27, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 08:17:00 PM
Hopefully the judge will have a better handle on Alex's best interests than his parents have.
It's sad that sometimes family court judges know better than the parents, but that's the whole reason we have to have family court, isn't it? *sigh*
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 27, 2006, 10:50:00 PM
for heroin. Not family court. They
want there money and a piece of him
also.
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 10:55:00 AM
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 11:10:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 03:00:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 03:02:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 05:48:00 PM
Post by: The Liger on February 28, 2006, 05:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 12:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"scrape him off the street when he kills himself or someone else"
And you guys criticize Alex and Ashley for being into goth? Ironic.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 06:07:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 06:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 14:56:00, The Liger wrote:I didn't understand you reply to this one.
"Quote
On 2006-02-28 12:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"scrape him off the street when he kills himself or someone else"
And you guys criticize Alex and Ashley for being into goth? Ironic.
"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 06:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 15:07:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:"butt"
"There is so much that I would like to say and I know that it would be pointless here. I know you are all on a major crusade and truly beleive in what you are doing. I also understand the horror some of you have gone through just from reading here. Wouldn't it be something if you were all wrong. There is nobody here that knows how he is really doing except his family. You are projecting other peoples stories and assuming that is what he is going through. Do you really know? No you don't. Just because it is not what you would do, doesn't mean it is not working for Alex. Also, why were most of the letters to the judge annonymous? You all have so much to say and the time to but into this families lives, don't you can't be brave enough to sign your name? "
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 06:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 15:07:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:Also, if I can get a screen name and take what is dished out here, you can sign your name to a letter that states something that you are not even sure about.
"There is so much that I would like to say and I know that it would be pointless here. I know you are all on a major crusade and truly beleive in what you are doing. I also understand the horror some of you have gone through just from reading here. Wouldn't it be something if you were all wrong. There is nobody here that knows how he is really doing except his family. You are projecting other peoples stories and assuming that is what he is going through. Do you really know? No you don't. Just because it is not what you would do, doesn't mean it is not working for Alex. Also, why were most of the letters to the judge annonymous? You all have so much to say and the time to but into this families lives, don't you can't be brave enough to sign your name? "
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 06:30:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 06:45:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on February 28, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
Quote
Wouldn't it be something if you were all wrong.
Awaiting Alex's post telling so...
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 28, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on February 28, 2006, 06:51:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 07:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 15:47:00, Anonymous wrote:The way things get twised here, even if he does post his side of things, you will come up with an excuse as to why he is saying what he is saying.
"QuoteWouldn't it be something if you were all wrong.
Awaiting Alex's post telling so..."
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 07:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 15:47:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:Glad you did what you did. Others talk the talk but cant find a pen.
"I'm not afraid of anything, and I signed my name. I also gave the judge my telephone number. I know what I am talking about. Do you? I don't think so!"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 07:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 15:47:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:Also, I do know what I am talking about. Have you any contact with anyone in this family? With Alex? No. So there is now way you can know what he is experiencing.
"I'm not afraid of anything, and I signed my name. I also gave the judge my telephone number. I know what I am talking about. Do you? I don't think so!"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on February 28, 2006, 07:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 15:51:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:Again, you think you know what is going on because of what you experienced. That may not be so here and there is no way you can know that.
"BTW, I would not feel the least bit guilty if Alex kills himself. I did the best I could. Sorry, I did not birth this child myself. I should not be held accountible for anything! It's his parents who don't know how to raise their own kid, and had to farm out their parental responsibilities to complete strangers. "
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on February 28, 2006, 11:14:00 PM
I want him to be happy and heading in the right direction. We also can't wait to see him, because we miss and love him.
I hope he is in the percentage of kids that get something out of this program. Nothing I have seen from him so far would indicate anything else.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 10:59:00 AM
Quote
I hope he is in the percentage of kids that get something out of this program. Nothing I have seen from him so far would indicate anything else. "
From my personal experience, and going back many years..........the only thing that program will do for Alex is put fear into his mind. You're thinking, great that's what we want! But, the problem is, these programs don't get inside you to fix what it is that is really troubling you. Not only that, but it really screws up the trust between parent/child forever. Your kid will never forgive you.
I am sure Ashley will tell him about us here. Or it'll get to him one way or another. We look forward to hearing his side of the story. I'm not sure we'll get it as long as he is depending on his parents for food/shelter/college.
What about the hundreds of other kids in these programs?
What are we going to do about them?
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2006, 11:13:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 12:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its criminal court that he is dealing with, not family."
Families can be crueler than any court, particularly the relatives in dysfunctional families who are convinced they're doing something "for your own good."
I've seen it about a gazillion times.
With relatives like his, Alex doesn't need enemies.
At least a court is neutral.
Julie
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 12:53:00 PM
What are you going to say if he gets home and doesn't feel the same way as you do?
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 01:18:00 PM
It is very apparent that you families was very dysfunctional. The seed doesn't fall far from the tree as they say.
Not all parents throw their kids in there for years and don't participate. They have talked to Alex on a couple of occasions, I guess things have changed a little seeing you say you can't talk to your kid on the phone.
I even wonder if your name is really Julie?
hmm maybe I will check ip address :lol:
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 01:21:00 PM
Quote
What are you going to say if he gets home and doesn't feel the same way as you do? "
If he feels like it made a huge (possitive)impact on him, and really helped him out..........well then I guess he can tell the judge that, and go back. There are lots of other programs WWASPS has he can enroll in too. Hell, if he really supports the program encourage him to start an I love WWASPS group, it'll be the first of it's kind.
Just playing, anyway...........I would be shocked if he was anything but completely grateful for us all (most of all the judge), for getting him the hell out of there.
Now he can receive real treatment.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 02:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"It amazes me how you can continue to assume you know his parents/relatives. Still waiting to see the degree you have that gives you all this knowledge to label and say you know people you haven't met.
It is very apparent that you families was very dysfunctional. The seed doesn't fall far from the tree as they say.
Not all parents throw their kids in there for years and don't participate. They have talked to Alex on a couple of occasions, I guess things have changed a little seeing you say you can't talk to your kid on the phone.
I even wonder if your name is really Julie?
hmm maybe I will check ip address :lol: "
You're right, and all of us are wrong. Blah blah blah........something about us being from dysfunctional families..........seeds not falling far from the tree........blah blah blah.
I came from a dysfunctional family, I am not disfunctional myself. NO, I do not credit Cross Creek Manor for making me functional. I do not credit God either (if there were a god, I wouldn't have been in that hell hole to begin with).
Hey, I don't have kids right now. But, I promise you I will do a much better job then Alex's parents did with him.
I would never farm out my parental responsibilities to a complete stranger. I would take care of things myself.
To the rest of the family that just sits by, and lets this happen..........you're not off the hook.
The law is the law. He will come home, and face the judge in court. All we ever wanted was him to be able to have the chance to speak. He's getting that chance now, and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.
What's that song?
I fought the law, and the law won!!!
I forget who sings that, but it popped into my head!
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 02:56:00 PM
Unless he likes the program or what if he doesn't like it but he got something out of it. Then you wont want to hear from him. You will probably call him a troll... :lol:
I am not unhappy he is coming home I can't wait to see him so there isn't a damn thing I want to do about it.
By the way my post was for Julie or whoever.
She always tries to say what kind of family he has even though she has never met them. I may not know about these programs seeing I have never been in one or even known anyone in one. I will soon find out. Maybe I should try to act like I know what I am talking about. Just like thoughs of you who don't know us but pretend you do. How sad.
But I do know his family and she is sooo far off.
Remember Alex will read this. Even if he wasn't happy there, I believe he will remember the deep love our family has, and we will get through it.
There are kids who re connect with their families. I really am sorry you didn't that must be awful. IMO it is wrong to see every family in the same way you see yours.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 03:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 07:59:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:First of all, his parents will be telling him about this site. There is no way they could possibly not tell him. And secondly, didn't I say that even if Alex posts here and states that he is well, you will come up with something to explain why he feels that way. Not that anything done to help him maybe worked, it's because he still depends on his parents etc. Nothing but an awful experience on his behalf will satify you because you can't be wrong can you?
"Quote
I hope he is in the percentage of kids that get something out of this program. Nothing I have seen from him so far would indicate anything else. "
From my personal experience, and going back many years..........the only thing that program will do for Alex is put fear into his mind. You're thinking, great that's what we want! But, the problem is, these programs don't get inside you to fix what it is that is really troubling you. Not only that, but it really screws up the trust between parent/child forever. Your kid will never forgive you.
I am sure Ashley will tell him about us here. Or it'll get to him one way or another. We look forward to hearing his side of the story. I'm not sure we'll get it as long as he is depending on his parents for food/shelter/college.
What about the hundreds of other kids in these programs?
What are we going to do about them?"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 03:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 08:13:00, Anonymous wrote:You know Julie Ive been impressed by some of the insightful things you have said. But the above is just plain stupid. If you knew the relatives you were referring to you would feel like a retard on the short bus.
"Quote
On 2006-02-28 12:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its criminal court that he is dealing with, not family."
Families can be crueler than any court, particularly the relatives in dysfunctional families who are convinced they're doing something "for your own good."
I've seen it about a gazillion times.
With relatives like his, Alex doesn't need enemies.
At least a court is neutral.
Julie"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 03:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:21:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:Now Alex is the enemy because he may feel the program helped him? What happened to helping him no matter what? If he feels it helped him thats bad because nothing good can come from this right? God your an ass too.
"Quote
What are you going to say if he gets home and doesn't feel the same way as you do? "
If he feels like it made a huge (possitive)impact on him, and really helped him out..........well then I guess he can tell the judge that, and go back. There are lots of other programs WWASPS has he can enroll in too. Hell, if he really supports the program encourage him to start an I love WWASPS group, it'll be the first of it's kind.
Just playing, anyway...........I would be shocked if he was anything but completely grateful for us all (most of all the judge), for getting him the hell out of there.
Now he can receive real treatment."
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 03:15:00 PM
Of course I want to hear from Alex. As long as it is really him posting, and there is no gun pointed at his head when he tells us what is going on at SCL these days.
Your comment about Julie.......well, I really enjoying reading her posts. I think she has a lot of great/positive things to say. I know we don't know your family, but I promise if I ever make it to Michigan, I will make it a point to meet you, and Alex, and the whole gang.
Maybe, by the time that happens..........you all will of had time to sit back and reflect upon what happened, and what you did.
I have a feeling once emotions have calmed down, you'll be okay admitting you were wrong for sending him away to strangers to behaivor modification camp, and hopefully Alex will forgive you, and not hold it against you.
It took me 15 years to forgive my Father. I will never forget though. Just so I make myself clear.....I WILL NEVER FORGET.
I do hope that the family heals, and the relationship is strengthened between Alex, and his family. He needs them, not some stranger. Come on, you know I am right!
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 03:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 11:08:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:Excuse me again, but nobody has to bring him home and the state will not spend the money to do it themselves since he is not a murderer. If he does come home it will be because his parents think that is best. Also, he may be grateful for all the wonderful help you have given him, but he may also not appreciate his life story being on the internet for all to see. Did you think about that Ashley and Leslie?
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"It amazes me how you can continue to assume you know his parents/relatives. Still waiting to see the degree you have that gives you all this knowledge to label and say you know people you haven't met.
It is very apparent that you families was very dysfunctional. The seed doesn't fall far from the tree as they say.
Not all parents throw their kids in there for years and don't participate. They have talked to Alex on a couple of occasions, I guess things have changed a little seeing you say you can't talk to your kid on the phone.
I even wonder if your name is really Julie?
hmm maybe I will check ip address :lol: "
You're right, and all of us are wrong. Blah blah blah........something about us being from dysfunctional families..........seeds not falling far from the tree........blah blah blah.
I came from a dysfunctional family, I am not disfunctional myself. NO, I do not credit Cross Creek Manor for making me functional. I do not credit God either (if there were a god, I wouldn't have been in that hell hole to begin with).
Hey, I don't have kids right now. But, I promise you I will do a much better job then Alex's parents did with him.
I would never farm out my parental responsibilities to a complete stranger. I would take care of things myself.
To the rest of the family that just sits by, and lets this happen..........you're not off the hook.
The law is the law. He will come home, and face the judge in court. All we ever wanted was him to be able to have the chance to speak. He's getting that chance now, and there is not a damn thing you can do about it.
What's that song?
I fought the law, and the law won!!!
I forget who sings that, but it popped into my head!
"
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 03:23:00 PM
Quit being such a bitch! You are really on my last nerve.
CCM girl 1989
Ps-Congats, you are the first person I've called a name like that on this site.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 04:19:00 PM
Quote
Excuse me again, but nobody has to bring him home and the state will not spend the money to do it themselves since he is not a murderer. If he does come home it will be because his parents think that is best. Also, he may be grateful for all the wonderful help you have given him, but he may also not appreciate his life story being on the internet for all to see. Did you think about that Ashley and Leslie?"
Wow, did you hear that judge? No respect for your orders. Great family, huh?
Printing as we speak........it will be mailed tomorrow morning.
Thanks for the post.
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2006, 04:32:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 04:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 12:23:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:Why am I a bitch? Because I question some of your words regarding family you dont even know? Because some of what you say is so far off the wall? Maybe your parents left you there and didn't care about you, but that is not the problem with this family. Stop projecting what happend to you onto every other person. WWASP may not be the wonderful place they want you to beleive but also not the place you describe. Could it be the people who are working with Alex are different from the people who were there with you? If I am a bitch then fine. I am also not afraid to post here anymore and do not care what you think. I will challenge all of the stupid things that you say.
"Aunt Shelly,
Quit being such a bitch! You are really on my last nerve.
CCM girl 1989
Ps-Congats, you are the first person I've called a name like that on this site."
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 04:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:19:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:See how you twist what is written. You have no idea what is going on with all of this. Mail what you want, you are to dumb for words.
"QuoteExcuse me again, but nobody has to bring him home and the state will not spend the money to do it themselves since he is not a murderer. If he does come home it will be because his parents think that is best. Also, he may be grateful for all the wonderful help you have given him, but he may also not appreciate his life story being on the internet for all to see. Did you think about that Ashley and Leslie?"
Wow, did you hear that judge? No respect for your orders. Great family, huh?
Printing as we speak........it will be mailed tomorrow morning.
Thanks for the post."
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 04:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:34:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"QuoteWhy am I a bitch? Because I question some of your words regarding family you dont even know? Because some of what you say is so far off the wall? Maybe your parents left you there and didn't care about you, but that is not the problem with this family. Stop projecting what happend to you onto every other person. WWASP may not be the wonderful place they want you to beleive but also not the place you describe. Could it be the people who are working with Alex are different from the people who were there with you? If I am a bitch then fine. I am also not afraid to post here anymore and do not care what you think. I will challenge all of the stupid things that you say."
On 2006-03-01 12:23:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Aunt Shelly,
Quit being such a bitch! You are really on my last nerve.
CCM girl 1989
Ps-Congats, you are the first person I've called a name like that on this site."
Wake up Shelly, it's obvious you haven't done much research. The same people who ran Cross Creek, run Spring Creek Lodge. Staff are taught by the same people. Please take your smart pill, and stop playing dumb.
There are more stories of abuse everyday coming out of WWASPS. You'd have to be deaf, blind, and stupid not to realize that.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 04:46:00 PM
[/quote]
Correction.......
too dumb for words.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 04:48:00 PM
Quote
Hey, I don't have kids right now. But, I promise you I will do a much better job then Alex's parents did with him.
I would never farm out my parental responsibilities to a complete stranger. I would take care of things myself.
To the rest of the family that just sits by, and lets this happen..........you're not off the hook.
:question: What can I do? He isn't my kid. I do not have power of attorney over him.
Who is to say I wouldn't do the same thing I really don't know because unlike you I am smart enough to know that unless put in this situation I have know idea what I would do.
I am not off the hook yet?
What are you going to do to me? Or do you think I have it coming from Alex? Hate to say it but he is more mature then you. I am not worried. He knows I love him and I hope we have an even closer relationship after this.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Gee, do you think three months was enough time to brainwash him into forgiving his parents for having him kidnapped? I don't know, I think it would take alot longer than that!"
Just want you to know I do know who is posting Anonymous. Gotta love the internet I learned how to read IP's You should just sign in on your screen name. Wow how stupid
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 05:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:19:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"QuoteExcuse me again, but nobody has to bring him home and the state will not spend the money to do it themselves since he is not a murderer. If he does come home it will be because his parents think that is best. Also, he may be grateful for all the wonderful help you have given him, but he may also not appreciate his life story being on the internet for all to see. Did you think about that Ashley and Leslie?"
Wow, did you hear that judge? No respect for your orders. Great family, huh?
Printing as we speak........it will be mailed tomorrow morning.
Thanks for the post."
Print this crack head. It isn't her kid she could care less what happens to him. If he gets back into drugs it is job security for her. More money for the county. I bet things would be different if it was her kid. Maybe like you she is just ignorant because she doesn't have any.
I never hear your mom mentioned. Could it be possible your father didn't know what to do with an out of control girl?
I will agree with you. Kids are put in these programs for to long. I can't agree yet with the abuse I will find out. There are parents who put here kids in these places to get them out of there lives I believe that. Sorry not this family as much as you want every family to be like yours there not.
So if Alex's posts here when he is ready to and it isn't what you want to hear then what I understand is. He will either be a troll or we will be holding a gun to his head. That is great I am sure after reading that he may feel there is no reason to post. Because if he didn't have a bad experience like you then you wont believe him. Nice I thought that both sides where welcome on this forum?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 05:28:00 PM
I realize you are one of two Aunts. I didn't think you would take a screen name like CaughtInTheMiddle unless you were duh, caught in the middle.
When I have kids, would I attempt to take out their tonsils??? What kind of question is that?!! Look, I know where you are going with that. Did the school put that in your head? I bet you they did. I guess I am lucky because my Dad had his own dental practice, and had a lot of close friends that were doctors. Not to mention my grandfather who was a pediatrician. Oh and his brother who was also a doctor who delivered me. So, even though I am not qualified to perform such procedures, I would have direct links to people who do. There would be a good chance I know this doctor PERSONALLY that would be performing this surgery on my child.
I'm not going to back down to you either. Keep coming at me, with whatever you want to say. I will not stop.
BTW-it was my Aunt and Uncle that saved me from a life of hell. So, you are not off the hook. Family is family. It's funny, I love my Aunt more then my Mom and Dad put together. My Aunt was my Mom's only sister. She's great. Even though we are now seperated....she's in Florida (but, does more travel then anyone I know), and I am in California we make it a point to get together whenever possible. You may be just the Aunt, but if you are the one that can develop a close relationship with Alex, then you should. His parents, might not be able to after they did what they did. He may have a lot of resentment.
I think that's all for the moment?
Ps-Wake up!!!!
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 05:35:00 PM
As far as the crackhead comment........please! I bet you I live a better, healthier lifestyle then you. Not only do I work out 2 hours a day, watch what I eat, I live in a million dollar home, and have it all going on. Don't be jealous, and don't be hating on me either.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 05:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:46:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:You are sooo smart. Thank You.[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-01 16:04 ]QuoteSee how you twist what is written. You have no idea what is going on with all of this. Mail what you want, you are to dumb for words."
Correction.......
too dumb for words.
"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 06:05:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Then why do you keep saying things like?
"I have a feeling once emotions have calmed down, you'll be okay admitting you were wrong for sending him away to strangers to behaivor modification camp, and hopefully Alex will forgive you, and not hold it against you." Talk about duh!
"I would have direct links to people who do.There would be a good chance I know this doctor PERSONALLY that would be performing this surgery on my child" What the same family members that just let you sit in CCM and rote for 2 years hmmm.
" I bet you I live a better, healthier lifestyle then you. Not only do I work out 2 hours a day, watch what I eat, I live in a million dollar home, and have it all going on. Don't be jealous, and don't be hating on me either." Oh Please you have no idea what I do. Big deal a million dollar home get over yourself if that is true why don't you sell it and take your millions and go after these schools? Is it not worth you money?
I also work out 2 hours a day have 2 kids have a career. Nobody gives me money I make it all by myself. I also watch what I eat. As I put it in my mouth...lol
"Don't be jealous, and don't be hating on me either." You don't have to worry about me being jealous or hating on you. You do nothing for me.
"Did the school put that in your head?" I don't know how they could have seeing I have never been there.
So how did your aunt get you out? She couldn't have walked in and got you. It seems funny you just mention this now. There has been many time I have asked what you think I could do being an Aunt? Nothing was ever said. Because there is nothing I can do. Did you run out of things to try and use against me. You really don't scare me. I do feel sorry for you though I don't know if the school made you this way or maybe you have always been this way that is why you were sent to CCM
PS I AM AWAKE.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 06:25:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 06:55:00 PM
Listen, because I really don't like having to repeat myself. When I was in Cross Creek I shared an inappropriate relationship with the owner of the school. I was going to be in there no matter what until the age of 18. I basically told the owner I would tell everyone what was going on unless he had me transferred to a real boarding school. I had already been in these types of schools for 4 1/2 years. I had 1 1/2 years to go. It was either me killing myself, or blackmailing him for my freedom. So, yes I blackmailed him, okay?!! Anyway, he told me I could say whatever I wanted because he would have me shipped off to Wilderness Camp where nobody would hear from me. So, I told my therapist. Which led to an investigation, which lead him to being kicked off the property of CCM. Then when I heard preperations for my departure, I ran.
They looked for me the first night, I know this because they were chasing after me! After that, I don't think they tried. I say this because they seemed to find every other person who ran. As far as I know I am still the only one that has gotten out that way. After a couple weeks, I called my therapist. He told me to call home. I spoke with my parents, and they agreed to send me money. I guess I wasn't sure what to do at that point. I had been incarcerated since I was 12. I knew nothing about the real world. I never have been in trouble with the law.....but I was now drinking, smoking, experimenting with drugs, and god forbid SEX! I admit, I was on my way to a miserable life.
My Aunt wanted to adopt me starting when I was 9, because she saw that my parents (Dad and Step-Mom) weren't good parents. My Dad was 53 when I was born, and had very little patience. My step-mom was a school principal, and ran our house like a school. I was miserable. I think she got off on punishing us (my older brother and I). I was sent off to school, and when my brother died in a freak drowning accident at the club we belonged to it sealed my fate that I was never to return home.
Back to it, my parents didn't want my Aunt and Uncle to adopt me, god forbid she did a better job of raising me then them. Not only that, but what would their friends say?!!
So, my Aunt tracked me down. I am not sure how? I was so bad off when I was 16 and on my own, I had no telephone. I was surprised when I had a neighbor knocking on my apartment door telling me my Aunt was on the payphone. So, I came to Norcal to visit for Christmas. A couple months later I moved in with them, and my life has been nothing but positive since.
I am proud of where I am in life. I look forward to hearing from Alex. It's kind of weird you say you read other peoples stories about their experiences in these places, but you don't think they listen to his conversations with his parents? You don't think the therapist would report on Alex's convo's with his parents? You think they would just let him say whatever he wanted to without consequences?
Wake up!
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 15:25:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"CCM Girl, How old are you? I actually feel very immature being on this site and arguing with you as in the scheme of things it makes no difference to the outcome and that is what is important. I do take issue with all the family bashing. This family is obviously very different then yours. Your comments are related to your life experiences not this families. I need to keep that in mind when you make me crazy with some of the things you say. "
I am not ashamed to admit my age, I am 32 years old. How old are you? Look, it's really simple. I have a thing against ALL parents who send their kids to schools that are run by WWASPS. With all the information out there, how could you let his parents make this decision?
I'm not meaning to drive you crazy lol even though you are driving me absolutley nuts!!!! Look, I don't see why you are posting on here? You seem to think you know it all!
You talk about how great exitplan is for not talking shit about Alex's family. He's been fighting you the whole way, trying to get you to see the light. So, he's not calling you a bitch, so what? He's signed out. Read his last post. He's frusterated, and is taking a break. Which is what I may do to, because you're a lost cause!!!
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 07:35:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 07:43:00 PM
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 01, 2006, 08:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 15:05:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Dear Mr. Exit Plan, You are one of the few people on this site who did not bash the family. Thank you. Your information and personal story were very hard to read because your pain comes through each word, but it was also very informative. I have been having a very hard time with some of the really stupid things said here about this family. Do the people here really think that if these things were going on with Alex his parents would just leave him there? There has been contact with him and he is not being hurt or brainwashed. And I also don't think there was a gun at his head during the 45 minute conversations. Not to mention all of his personal letters. His sense of humor seems to be intact also. You should continue to spread your word because the information is invaluable."
Shelly, what you have to say really do not do much to sate our fears.
One of the things we've said from the get-go is they manipulate parents and communication so they think anything that is negative is lying or manipulation. So them thinking its all great and being told from the beginning not to believe us or their own kid so they think it IS all great when people have something to say otherwise and theyre told to ignore it doesnt really mean a lot, does it?
The seminars, which are rehashed Erhard Seminar Trainings (EST) being held in a LGAT form are simply unacceptable, period. Have you read up on them?
You say (as if you'd know...) that 'nobody had a gun to his head during phone conversations'.
They dont NEED one! The threat of more time in the program or dropping levels and losing more rights and dignity, and understanding that your parents WONT believe you if you tell them anything bad is going on does a pretty good job to make people keep in step in the line the program painted for them.
Furthermore, you call any sort of criticism "family bashing" and dont seem to accept what anyone has to say who has been in a program that DIDNT like them.
And another thing. These programs are EXTREMELY secretive, its damn near impossible to get any info out of there that isnt spun, controlled, censored or biased - dont you have a problem with that?
PS - youre using my old icon.
:lol:
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 08:18:00 PM
I just ordered Maia's book Help At Any Cost. Would you like me to send it to you when I am through? Seriously, I am more then happy to pay the postage.
Let me know, and provide your mailing information via private message.
It might help you to have a better understanding of how these programs work, because right now you don't have a clue.
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 01, 2006, 08:28:00 PM
Help a poor college kid? :cry:
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 08:28:00 PM
Alex's Parents are not like that. This I do know. Yes I have a good relationship with my sister. She knows how I feel about this place and I understand how she feels. She isn't sending him away for a step dad she wants him to get help because she loves him and wants to see his life to be better then drugs. He is a great kid and will go far when he gets over this hump. She would never send him away that long. She also thinks 2+ years is to long. and 12 is to young. If I felt he was with parents that were not good parents as your Aunt did that would be a different story. Also when she found you and moved you in you were already out. I remember you saying you were dangling from a vacuum out the window and ran away that is why I didn't understand how your Aunt saved you. I will always be here for Alex I have let him know that and will continue. So it isn't like I am just leaving him there as you keep saying.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 08:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 17:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Dear Aunt Shelly and CIM,
I just ordered Maia's book Help At Any Cost. Would you like me to send it to you when I am through? Seriously, I am more then happy to pay the postage.
Let me know, and provide your mailing information via private message.
It might help you to have a better understanding of how these programs work, because right now you don't have a clue."
I purchased a copy already. It was next to the books that promote the program
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2006, 08:36:00 PM
To the aunts, I see you being attacked and I think you are also being a bit immature by swearing at posters. I, too, would want to defend my family. However, you don't have to demean yourself by responding in a similarly childish manner.
Let's raise the bar, people. There was some really useful information shared over the past few months. Don't give the naysayers more reason to discredit this site- it takes away from its purpose, which I would hope is to End Institutionalized Child Abuse by spreading awareness.
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 08:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-28 16:03:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Also, I do know what I am talking about. Have you any contact with anyone in this family? With Alex? No. So there is now way you can know what he is experiencing.
No, of course not! He's in a WWASP program, you igit! Nobody has any contact with him, except for his parents and then only if he and they stick to the script.
Put down the kool aid! :roll:
A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.
Arthur C. Clark
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 08:55:00 PM
Contact CIM, I believe she has a copy that's doing nothing but collecting dust.
That's my .02
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 09:16:00 PM
I don't have to share everything here.
"To the aunts, I see you being attacked and I think you are also being a bit immature by swearing at posters. I, too, would want to defend my family. However, you don't have to demean yourself by responding in a similarly childish manner."
The only time that I have swore was after listening to total nonsence it takes it's toll. I have tried to be far if you noticed most things I have posted in asking how I could help ex.. Has always went unanswered. It just turns back into a reflection of CCM's parents onto me. The Aunt. It isn't affective I have said that before.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 09:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:16:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Like always your .02 is wrong again. I have also read a book about seed or seedling. There is alot about me I haven't said and you don't know.
I don't have to share everything here.
"To the aunts, I see you being attacked and I think you are also being a bit immature by swearing at posters. I, too, would want to defend my family. However, you don't have to demean yourself by responding in a similarly childish manner."
The only time that I have swore was after listening to total nonsence it takes it's toll. I have tried to be far if you noticed most things I have posted in asking how I could help ex.. Has always went unanswered. It just turns back into a reflection of CCM's parents onto me. The Aunt. It isn't affective I have said that before.
"
I was being factitious, I apologize. From what I heard about this book, it paints a very realistic picture of what these places are all about. So, if you did read it cover to cover I am just a little surprised you say the things you do!
That's all! I will be looking forward to receiving this book in the next few days.
BTW-Do Alex's parents need a copy?[ This Message was edited by: CCM girl 1989 on 2006-03-01 18:47 ]
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 09:32:00 PM
Just answer the question, are they, or aren't they?
It's real simple, and I know you know the answer.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 09:43:00 PM
*crickets*
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 09:47:00 PM
I did post that I felt immature. It's funny when you are pushed how easy it is to regress.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 09:53:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 10:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
It amazes me how you can continue to assume you know his parents/relatives.
Well, you have made it more than obvious that you've bought into the Program scam. Never mind the Alex you used to know. The WWASP version is better. And right now, after a couple of months of constant brow beating, he's singing your tune, denouncing himself. You're fucking thrilled!
You think the old Alex is dead and buried and you can't wait to trot him out to denounce himself. But that only works if you can be successful at turning all of his friends and family against him. That's not working. Even the courts, that final arbiter of community consensus, are not on your side.
Well, what can I say? You get the results you intend through your actions. Not happy? Maybe you're wrong!
You're some sick fucks, that's all.
Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:53:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Answer the question please."
Why don't you send the judge another letter and ask her? This time though enclose your picture also.
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 10:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 12:12:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Now Alex is the enemy because he may feel the program helped him?
No, not at all. We've all been there. We all had to stick to the script for dear life. Most of us had to do it for so long we half convinced ourselves. Most of us said and did things we now regret as a result. If you believe absurdities, you will commit atrocities.
If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:19:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
It amazes me how you can continue to assume you know his parents/relatives.
Well, you have made it more than obvious that you've bought into the Program scam. Never mind the Alex you used to know. The WWASP version is better. And right now, after a couple of months of constant brow beating, he's singing your tune, denouncing himself. You're fucking thrilled!
You think the old Alex is dead and buried and you can't wait to trot him out to denounce himself. But that only works if you can be successful at turning all of his friends and family against him. That's not working. Even the courts, that final arbiter of community consensus, are not on your side.
Well, what can I say? You get the results you intend through your actions. Not happy? Maybe you're wrong!
You're some sick fucks, that's all.Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
"
I've received letters from the old Alex. I do know who he is. Nobody has bought into anything as stated before, but you will see what you wish to. The only new Alex anyone would like to see is a sober one. Why can't you seem to understand that?
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 10:25:00 PM
Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:22:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 12:12:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Now Alex is the enemy because he may feel the program helped him?
No, not at all. We've all been there. We all had to stick to the script for dear life. Most of us had to do it for so long we half convinced ourselves. Most of us said and did things we now regret as a result. If you believe absurdities, you will commit atrocities.If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
"
He has only been there a short time. I'm sure to him it seems a lot longer. Most of posts here seem to state that you all spent years there. Don't you think there is a difference? Really, I'm curious.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 10:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:23:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:19:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
It amazes me how you can continue to assume you know his parents/relatives.
Well, you have made it more than obvious that you've bought into the Program scam. Never mind the Alex you used to know. The WWASP version is better. And right now, after a couple of months of constant brow beating, he's singing your tune, denouncing himself. You're fucking thrilled!
You think the old Alex is dead and buried and you can't wait to trot him out to denounce himself. But that only works if you can be successful at turning all of his friends and family against him. That's not working. Even the courts, that final arbiter of community consensus, are not on your side.
Well, what can I say? You get the results you intend through your actions. Not happy? Maybe you're wrong!
You're some sick fucks, that's all.Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
"
I've received letters from the old Alex. I do know who he is. Nobody has bought into anything as stated before, but you will see what you wish to. The only new Alex anyone would like to see is a sober one. Why can't you seem to understand that?"
Then why didn't his parents send him to a drug rehab? BTW-you STILL haven't answered the question!
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 10:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:34:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Why am I a bitch? Because I question some of your words regarding family you dont even know?
No, because you think adherance to WWASP's quack dogma puts you above the law; both the letter law of the land and the natural law that should compel you to love and support your nephew despite what some crack pot in Montana may say about him.
It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
--Abraham Lincoln
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 10:30:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:27:00, Eudora wrote:Nobody is above the law. And love and support him I do. You may be able to ask him that one day and he will tell you how he is like one of my own.
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:34:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Why am I a bitch? Because I question some of your words regarding family you dont even know?
No, because you think adherance to WWASP's quack dogma puts you above the law; both the letter law of the land and the natural law that should compel you to love and support your nephew despite what some crack pot in Montana may say about him.It has ever been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues
--Abraham Lincoln
"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:33:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:36:00 PM
Why don't you read back at earlier posts. I believe that was answered a few times.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 01, 2006, 10:37:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 10:39:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 10:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:48:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
What are you going to do to me?
We're not going to do anything to you. You'll have to live with your conscience as you grow older and wiser.
- A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
- A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.
- But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.
--A Patriot
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 01, 2006, 10:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:37:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Goodnite, I can't take anymore."
Good riddance!
PS-I hope the judge reams his parents for having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law.
See ya tomorrow!
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 11:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 12:15:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
Also, he may be grateful for all the wonderful help you have given him, but he may also not appreciate his life story being on the internet for all to see.
Trust me on this one, I've been there and you haven't. Ever heard the phrase "we shrink their world"? They do. It's as real as it gets. When every face you see, every word you hear, every hug (oh yeah, hugs are verboten) every gesture you are allowed to see and hear comes from that tiny little world on the compound, that becomes your whole world.
You don't understand this. I know you don't or you wouldn't be so fucking glib about it. Right now, Alex is in a place where the whole world consists of the WWASPbots and the other allegedly fucked up kids interred in that compound. They're everything, except for the scripted, monitored phone calls and letters he's allowed w/ program approved family.
WWASP requires that he divulge intimate details of his drug, family and sexual history and even thoughts and fantasies, before the whole of this bizarre tiny little world. And then those other fucked up kids, suffering the same torment for months or years on end, and those staffers who never left the Program because they were so broken after graduation that they couldn't get by flipping burgers on the outside, those profoundly fucked up people get to (have to, really) comment, criticize and judge his intimate, private, thoughts and deeds.
Not only are they Unqualified to provide responsible, helpful counsel, they're about the most fucked up people you could find to help this nephew who you say you love. And he can't walk away. Fuck! He can't even pick up the phone and call a sane and understanding friend when he needs to. He's isolated with these self righteous, sanctimonious lunatics.
THAT is what you're defending as "help". If he uses those "tools" he's getting" I'd move and lose contact if I were you, auntie. The last thing you want is for this kid to come back home and work that black magic on you and yours. I get the impression from his real friends that he would never do that. You're lucky, in that respect. Far more lucky than Timothy Nixon's mother
Quit while you're not too far behind, auntie. Cut your losses. Quit defending what you don't understand.
Creationists make it sound like a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:14:00 PM
As far as how he is being treated when he gets here he will be away from the school and if he was acting on their account we will find out then. [ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-03-01 21:03 ]
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:19:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 10:18:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
It amazes me how you can continue to assume you know his parents/relatives.
Well, you have made it more than obvious that you've bought into the Program scam. Never mind the Alex you used to know. The WWASP version is better. And right now, after a couple of months of constant brow beating, he's singing your tune, denouncing himself. You're fucking thrilled!
You think the old Alex is dead and buried and you can't wait to trot him out to denounce himself. But that only works if you can be successful at turning all of his friends and family against him. That's not working. Even the courts, that final arbiter of community consensus, are not on your side.
Well, what can I say? You get the results you intend through your actions. Not happy? Maybe you're wrong!
You're some sick fucks, that's all.Always try to do things in chronological order; it's less confusing that way.
--Unknown
"
how smart are you. We want the old Alex back duh. not the drugged out Alex. The happy funny Alex. How can we buy into the program if we are not part of the program. It kills me on how you talk around the truth. We do not have kids there. We have not attended discovery or any other seminar.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:22:00, Eudora wrote:
No, not at all. We've all been there. We all had to stick to the script for dear life. Most of us had to do it for so long we half convinced ourselves. Most of us said and did things we now regret as a result. If you believe absurdities, you will commit atrocities.If we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion by education
--Thomas Jefferson
"
I believe that is one of the big problems and maybe the way most of you are the same at this site. You were left there way to long and at to young of an age. Again I am also waiting to see what Alex has to say. The horrible things you try to say about my family that you don't even know makes it hard to have total belief in you. Sorry again but my family isnt like yours this I can tell by what you have told me.[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-02 13:18 ]
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:53:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Answer the question please."
I guess you will find out when he posts here. If you believe it is even him.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:25:00, Eudora wrote:
" :rofl: Just had to drop this on ya. The google ad that turned up somewhere around page 89 offered "Lawyer direct". Evidently, the Google AI routine thinks we all ought to lawyer up. ROFLMAO!!!Cops; you wake `em up you gotta dance with `em. They lead.
-- Jack McNulty
"
Couldnt be the lawyers just want to get your money like the school wanted your parents.
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 11:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:50:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Gotta love the internet I learned how to read IP's
ORLY! Care to tell me how you're hacking my server to get that confidential info?
By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz
Post by: Antigen on March 01, 2006, 11:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 14:05:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
So if Alex's posts here when he is ready
You mean when the family liaison decides he's ready to tow the party line?
Been there. Straight used to send us out to do speaking engagements when they were confident we knew how fucked we were if we didn't tow the party line. Alex seems like a smart, articulate, obviously very wealthy kid. They'll want to use him. I think they'll lose that gambit.
Tough Love: Abuse of a type particularly enjoyable to the abuser, in that it combines the pleasures of sadism with those of self-righteousness. Commonly employed and widely admired in 12-step groups.
--Chaz Bufe
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2006, 11:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 20:30:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:53:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Answer the question please."
I guess you will find out when he posts here. If you believe it is even him."
and when will that be?
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:45:00 PM
Quote
QuoteNo, because you think adherance to WWASP's quack dogma puts you above the law; both the letter law of the land and the natural law that should compel you to love and support your nephew despite what some crack pot in Montana may say about him.
lol do you people only read and take in what you want to. did I not just go over this? Ok Eudora
you tell me this how could we help him? Don't dodge the question with something I have alread heard over and over again. Is he my kid? NO! Do I have power to go get him? NO!
Ok, the judge ordered Mr. and Mrs. Azzopardi to bring Alex to his own hearing at 8:30 Monday next. One of you two dotting, loving aunties responded pretty quick to the effect that these fine people have no intention of doing that, unless they (or the people they're paying to do their thinking for them) determine for Alex that it would be in his best interest to attend his own arraignment on felony charges.
So, how do you interpret that in such a way as to not mean they think they're above the law????? Please???
[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-02 14:02 ]
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:36:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Then why didn't his parents send him to a drug rehab? BTW-you STILL haven't answered the question!
Why don't you read back at earlier posts. I believe that was answered a few times."
It was just not a good enough answer for them.
Wonder why people don't listen to them...hmmm could it be most people dont believe and shut out rude mean people?
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:49:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:44:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:48:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
What are you going to do to me?
We're not going to do anything to you. You'll have to live with your conscience as you grow older and wiser.- A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
- A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.
- But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.
--A Patriot
"
I wish you would grow wiser. I think my 13 year old gets it better then you.
Post by: Anonymous on March 01, 2006, 11:50:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 01, 2006, 11:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:46:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:37:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Goodnite, I can't take anymore."
Good riddance!
PS-I hope the judge reams his parents for having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law.
See ya tomorrow!"
You are sooo funny. You respect the law. What has the law done for you. In one breath the laws suck that is why this is happening to kids in the next breath.... having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law. Make up your mind. If you have one. Maybe you can buy one with your millions. You still havent answered my question. Is it not worth your money to get these places closed?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 12:00:00 AM
My Aunt had NO CLUE what type of place I was in, and what was happening. She thought I was at boarding school having a great time, and since I could call no one except for my parents once a week, I couldn't tell her where I was.
Furthermore, I didn't run away with an address book in hand. Address books don't exist in these places.
I lost touch with my family over the four years I was in these hell holes. I thought everybody had disowned me. I thought nobody loved me. I felt alone. It was horrible.
Back then, there was no such thing as the internet. Cross Creek (WWASPS first school) had just opened, so nobody knew much about it. You have the ability to research anything, and everything you want about these places, and you do. The funny thing is you are in denial. These places are as awful as everybody says.
This time, I swear, is all folks!!!
Goodnight!
Surprised to learn my pare
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 12:02:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 12:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 20:54:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:46:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:37:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Goodnite, I can't take anymore."
Good riddance!
PS-I hope the judge reams his parents for having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law.
See ya tomorrow!"
You are sooo funny. You respect the law. What has the law done for you. In one breath the laws suck that is why this is happening to kids in the next breath.... having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law. Make up your mind. If you have one. Maybe you can buy one with your millions. You still havent answered my question. Is it not worth your money to get these places closed?"
Compared to the millions WWASPS has made off these parents, I have mere peanuts. To others I am rich. Think what you want to. I don't give a shit.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 12:05:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 20:36:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:50:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Gotta love the internet I learned how to read IP's
ORLY! Care to tell me how you're hacking my server to get that confidential info?By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz
"
I have friends in low places
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 12:05:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 12:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 21:00:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Okay, I have a few minutes to respond since my hubby is having me Tivo Deal or No Deal in the bedroom, and I prefer American Idol.
My Aunt had NO CLUE what type of place I was in, and what was happening. She thought I was at boarding school having a great time, and since I could call no one except for my parents once a week, I couldn't tell her where I was.
Furthermore, I didn't run away with an address book in hand. Address books don't exist in these places.
I lost touch with my family over the four years I was in these hell holes. I thought everybody had disowned me. I thought nobody loved me. I felt alone. It was horrible.
Back then, there was no such thing as the internet. Cross Creek (WWASPS first school) had just opened, so nobody knew much about it. You have the ability to research anything, and everything you want about these places, and you do. The funny thing is you are in denial. These places are as awful as everybody says.
This time, I swear, is all folks!!!
Goodnight!
Surprised to learn my pare
"
This is what I mean she dodge it again. soo agian how did her Aunt save her? She thinks I can save Alex the same way. what wait until he gets out and I learn what has happened to him. duh what do you think I am doing. I dont care how rich you are you can't buy brains.
I love how you can jump on me for doing nothing when there is nothing I can do. But you seem to just egnore the fact that I do think it is wrong the way you were treated I want you to call your dad and tell me he is a dick for choosing a wife over his daughter. I agree really you should have never spent 4+ years there nobody should. I also believe that 12 years old is way to young and a bad time in a kids life to be sent to one of these places. Unless he was killing and raping people. Do you give me credit for that hell no. It is all your way or no way.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 12:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 21:05:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"CIM ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: ::unhappy:: "
this really shows how much you have grown up. in your 30's you say...hmm
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 12:51:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 17:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Dear Aunt Shelly and CIM,
I just ordered Maia's book Help At Any Cost. Would you like me to send it to you when I am through? Seriously, I am more then happy to pay the postage.
Let me know, and provide your mailing information via private message.
It might help you to have a better understanding of how these programs work, because right now you don't have a clue."
Yeah, buy that book! Maia has light experience w/ the troubled parent/substance abuse industry, but her real strength is as an investigative journalist. She tells a few stories in detail, backing her conclusions it w/ samples from the rest of the industry. The real strength of the story, though, is in how she ties it all together.
Aunties, you're being had. You want so badly to believe that WWASP has The Answer® to all of Alexe's problems. But you've been rooked out of even considering that maybe his problems are not so insoluble, maybe his angst is just a healthy, sensible response to what you have put on his plate.
Trust him, damn it! You always knew they would critique your work. Now comes the time to stand scrutiny. You can do it. Have faith. He can do it, and he loves you. Have faith in that.
Fuck those self appointed self help gurus who can't help themselves! They're lying to you to save their own egos. Don't fall for it!
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him to use the Net and he won't bother you for weeks.
--Anonymous
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 01:15:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:16:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Like always your .02 is wrong again. I have also read a book about seed or seedling. There is alot about me I haven't said and you don't know.
I don't have to share everything here.
If you were in Ft. Lauderdale, I was the little blond super Seedling on the parents' side. They called me "the chicklett". Were you there? You might want to hook up w/ your fellow travelers in The Seed Discussion Forum.
There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in
everlasting ignorance- that principle is contempt prior to investigation.
--Herbert Spencer
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 01:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:32:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I have a question..........are Alex's parents going to follow court orders, and bring him home?
Just answer the question, are they, or aren't they?
It's real simple, and I know you know the answer."
Or will they see themselves as being above the law and agree to have him shipped to Jamaica or Costa Rica? Ya know, when people think they're working for a higher cause, they'll even kill for it and expect God's blessing for it. That's what makes them so damed dangerous!
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid
of the dark. The real tragedy of life is
when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 01:31:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:23:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
The only new Alex anyone would like to see is a sober one
Maybe he was more sober than ever, more sober than you ever dared to be, by challenging your paint by numbers world view. Do you dare think it? No, I guess not. Far easier to think that he lacked the "tools" to see things your way.
Meanwhile, while Alext is being broke down to sing your tune and pretend he likes it, his olddruggiegirlfriend is winning hard fought academic awards and career starting merit in the real world. Just like that olddrugieboyfriend of mine who was in Berkely school of music by the time I found myself knocked up and friendless after all the "help" I got from the Program.
His dad was none too keen on my hooking back up w/ him. After all, I had been through rehab. Olaf was doing very well. I never pressed it. I didn't have the confidence after all that.
Think, please!
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 07:38:00 AM
I don't see her as an old druggie girl friend. I see her and Alex as young adults that got caught up in some bad drugs. You only know what they want you to know about her. There is a lot you have know idea about. It isn't my place to put that info here. Nobody would benefit from it. Just as nobody benefited from the things they said about Alex's mom to get your attention. It isn't my place to state some things that really happen. Things she chooses to lie about or chooses not to say. She will have to live with these things. It is between her mom and her, and Alex and her.
"Maybe he was more sober than ever, more sober than you ever dared to be, by challenging your paint by numbers world view. Do you dare think it? No, I guess not. Far easier to think that he lacked the "tools" to see things your way."
What are you talking about. Wow some things you say. Ya he was sober we just didn't wanted him anymore. Like your family. Is that what you want to hear?
"Or will they see themselves as being above the law and agree to have him shipped to Jamaica or Costa Rica?"
I guess we will just have to see.
"I was the little blond super Seedling on the parents' side. They called me "the chicklett". Were you there?"
Well lets see hmm I have only said like 100 times that I have never been in one of these programs and didn't know anyone who was so I guess the answer would be NO. But you already knew that didn't you? Are you reading the things I write? If you were the chicklett then this was a long time ago. Let's hope some things have changed.
"He can do it, and he loves you. Have faith in that."
I know he can and I hope he loves me and hopefully through all this we will have a stronger relationship.
"They're lying to you to save their own egos. Don't fall for it!"
Sorry but they are not lying to me because I have never talked to them![ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-03-02 04:40 ]
Post by: Ashley's Mom on March 02, 2006, 09:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-02 04:38:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
""old druggie girl friend is winning hard fought academic awards and career starting merit in the real world." That is great if she keeps it up.
I don't see her as an old druggie girl friend. I see her and Alex as young adults that got caught up in some bad drugs. You only know what they want you to know about her. There is a lot you have know idea about. It isn't my place to put that info here. Nobody would benefit from it. Just as nobody benefited from the things they said about Alex's mom to get your attention. It isn't my place to state some things that really happen. Things she chooses to lie about or chooses not to say. She will have to live with these things. It is between her mom and her, and Alex and her.
Okay, I guess this is where I come in and tell everyone that Yes, Ashley was using drugs too. This was never denied. Which drugs and to what extent was kept from us. I don't feel I need to list all the drugs, whatever Alex was using, she was using too. She was afraid to tell us everything. We know now, and that is what counts. At this time, she is not using and I believe her when she tells us she has learned a hard lesson. You know, there are still so many things my parents never found out about me, and they probably never will. I was never caught, so why tell? These kids got caught and had to fess up to some pretty heavy stuff. Fear plays a pretty big role in confession. Ashley was not locked up and forced to confess everything to us. It took her three months, a little at a time, it was hard to take, but its over. We move forward.
Life deals some hard lessons. Some learn from them and become better people.
Anything else you want to know about? Let me know if I am leaving anything out.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 12:18:00 PM
Okay, here is the thing..........we believe that WWASPS do outright lie to parents. Even though you haven't talked to them directly, I'm sure you talk to Alex's parents. It's a trickle down effect. So, what we are saying basically is WWASPS lies to the whole world. They are out to deceive, and do a pretty damn good job of it. The people who have been there, that know exactly what they're all about, are fed up. Not only former students, but their parents. I can't imagine a parent figuring this out, and still having 10-15+ years of writing that check for the monthly payment on the loan they took out to incarcerate their kid(I'm not sure of the percentage of parents that take out the 20 year loan, but I am sure it's pretty high). I have to say overall though the kid got the worse of it.
It sounds to me like Alex's parents feel like they are above the law. It's funny, WWASPS feel like they are too. We'll just see what happens I guess? In the end, the law always wins. Don't forget that. If I were you, I might remind your sister that.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 12:23:00 PM
Sorry about the ::unhappy::
It should've been a ::bangin::
I just get frusterated, it's obvious that Alex deserves to be in a place closer to home, that better suits his needs.
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 01:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 16:35:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"I don't know it all. But I do know things regarding this situation that you don't. I am 44."
Funny, but that's what my friend's mother said when they sent *her* away to one of these places.
She's out now, and emphatic that it was a horrible misjudgment on the part of her mom to go along with her stepdad and send her there. She's emphatic that she and everyone else was mistreated there. She's grateful that people didn't forget her while she was in there, that people told her mother what an idiot she was being to her face, she's grateful that people who knew what really goes on in those places spoke up for her when she was locked away and couldn't speak up for herself.
She's also grateful that she can know her experience helped get at least one other kid rescued by motivating her friends to become aware of the issue and involved in persuading parents of how stupid it is to send their kids to these hellholes.
While she was gone, people were saying, "Yeah, what if she gets out and says it was fine. She says she's doing just fine now. She's not going to thank all these people for getting in her business and telling her personal business all over the internet."
Well, it wasn't fine, and she was only saying she was fine because they'd hurt her worse if she didn't and she was *grateful* people didn't forget her and were getting her story out there. Grateful.
So I've been through this before. And the place she was sent was a hellhole, but it wasn't nearly as bad a hellhole as the people who've been in Spring Creek say it is. Her hellhole had no nut to butt walking everywhere, and no hobbit, and better protection from the weather at least most of the time.
Don't kid yourself. You may not be able to get him out, but the place isn't fine, Alex isn't fine, and the people he's going to be most thankful for when he gets out are Ashley and her mom for kicking up a fuss and not letting him be forgotten while he was gone, and for being a voice for him by proxy while he can't use his own to speak the truth about what is happening to him.
Although, like others, he may or may not be drinking the kool-aid for a little while after he gets out, until he gets confident he's safe and financially independent from his parents and can't be sent back either directly forcibly or by "intervention" manipulations. Once he's sure he's safe, he's going to be just like I said.
The one thing you could be, and should be, doing differently is depriving the parents of all moral support and sanction for what they're doing. You should be telling them he's being abused, that keeping him there is a gross error of judgment on their part, and that yes, they are being absolutely horrible parents right now.
You should stand up for Alex even if it has no tangible effect now, because when he gets out, it will mean the world to him that you did. You should do this even if telling his parents a straight no-shitter and refusing to give them acceptance and moral sanction for their bad acts estranges you from them.
You should be the voice for Alex to tell his parents what they don't want to hear, the things that he *can't* tell him, to be his voice now, while he doesn't have one himself.
That's what you could do, and should do, that you aren't doing, and that's why you're catching crap from everybody here.
You have the power to be his voice to his parents. You may not see the use in it, but it will mean the world to him when he finds out you did. It will tangibly help him when he gets out, because it will help to rebuild his trust in the world that not all people are as destructively gullible as his parents.
Kids come out of these places with their trust in their parents' judgment irretrievably shattered. They also come out with a lot of their trust in the rest of the world shattered, frequently irretrivably, that this kind of thing can happen in the world.
You can speed his recovery from the trauma, once he gets out, by giving him a foundation he can build on to restore his trust in the rest of the world so that he won't think trying to make something of himself is useless, pointless, and doomed to failure.
You can't get him out, but you aren't doing even what you could do, and that's why you deserve a lot of the crap you're catching.
His own voice has been stolen for him. You could give him back some of what is being stolen by being a voice for him, but for your own selfish reasons of not rocking the boat that much with your sister and brother-in-law, you won't.
As for why you're still here talking to everyone else, that's obvious. You feel guilty and conflicted for *not* being his voice, like you know you should, so you're seeking moral sanction from us. You want us to sympathize with you and by sympathizing with you to say that it's okay for you to fail to acknowledge what's being done to him and be a steadfast voice for Alex.
It's not okay.
Part of what you're doing staying here and talking to us is flagellating yourself over those guilty feelings and wallowing in self pity, because punishing yourself like this is easier than doing the right thing.
You know what you're doing by keeping your mouth shut and only timidly criticizing his parents to their face is wrong, it's cowardly, it's the easy way out. You know it.
You'd just rather go round and round with us seeking, if not our approval, at least for us to give you some kind of permission for what you're doing by sympathizing with you.
No.
Alex needs you to be his voice to his parents saying that what they're doing is *not* okay, and you're failing him.
That's horrible, and you get no sympathy from me for it.
Go do the right thing, and then I'll be glad to sympathize with you when his parents stop talking to you.
Stop being part of their moral support, even if only lukewarm moral support, for this horrible choice they've made and are continuing to make over and over again every single day when they get up in the morning and decide to leave him there one more day.
You're doing the wrong thing every day you get up and decide not to give your sister a real no-shitter about how rotten she's being. She may not usually be a rotten person, but she's being one right now. And every day you don't tell her, you're doing the wrong thing all over again.
No sympathy.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 01:29:00 PM
It's because they're proxies for Alex for you. You're seeking their understanding in the hope that *he* will understand and think well of you.
The reason you're now insisting that they aren't so very much like Alex, having been there longer, and that their parents aren't so very much like Alex's parents, is because they aren't giving you that tacit permission to fail Alex like you're doing.
Since they won't give you permission to fail, you're trying to tell yourself that they're not so very much like Alex after all and therefore that their reactions to your behavior are unrepresentative of what Alex would and will think of you.
And all this comes from your guilty conscience because you know you shouldn't be taking the easy way out. You *know* it's a bad place and know you should be telling your sister and brother-in-law off. You know you should confront them in no uncertain terms and let them know that *you* have no sympathy for the horrible thing they're doing, and that you will not continue to make excuses for them.
You are enabling their bad behavior, and you know damned well you are, and you feel guilty. As you should.
You're here because it's the closest you can come to explaining yourself to Alex, and you're distressed because all these people who have been where Alex is now aren't buying your excuses and enabling *you*.
Julie
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 01:53:00 PM
Thanks for stopping by. I'm always impressed with the way you are able to acticulate yourself. I'm obviously getting knowhere with his Aunties, and it's my fault partially, because I am too frusterated. I always enjoy it when you post, because you have a lot of great things to say.
Thanks again!
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 04:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 19:23:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
The only new Alex anyone would like to see is a sober one. Why can't you seem to understand that?
Oh, I do understand it very well. I even tend to think you believe it. But I don't believe it.
Why? Cause WWASP is not in the business of providing substance abuse counseling. That's just not what they do. They don't even bother to employ people educated in substance abuse or to provide the inmates w/ decent reading material on the topic.
Here's a fairly good run down of what they do:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#177887 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14173&forum=24&start=0#177887)
Now, I ask you, why can't you understand that?
If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves. It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions.
Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 02, 2006, 04:14:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 04:19:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 05:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 21:05:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 20:36:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-01 13:50:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
Gotta love the internet I learned how to read IP's
ORLY! Care to tell me how you're hacking my server to get that confidential info?
I have friends in low places"
And, once again, no respect for the law or ethics.
But, of course, you're probably just full of shit. It's no trivial matter, either technically or legally, to hack into my server.
I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-01 18:47:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
""To the aunts, I see you being attacked and I think you are also being a bit immature by swearing at posters. I, too, would want to defend my family. However, you don't have to demean yourself by responding in a similarly childish manner."
I did post that I felt immature. It's funny when you are pushed how easy it is to regress. "
Think about that statement for a minute. Now think about it in context of what Alex is going through.
Post by: Antigen on March 02, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-02 04:38:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
You only know what they want you to know about her. There is a lot you have know idea about. It isn't my place to put that info here. Nobody would benefit from it. Just as nobody benefited from the things they said about Alex's mom to get your attention. It isn't my place to state some things that really happen. Things she chooses to lie about or chooses not to say. She will have to live with these things. It is between her mom and her, and Alex and her.
So... what changed your mind? Was it that I didn't buy your lies about posting from the library? Or was it when we started checking up on all those far fetched claims you guys made early on in this thread? Go back and read it. Really, it's amazing how much and how little has changed since this conversation started.
The most serious parody I have ever heard was this: In the beginning was nonsense, and the nonsense was with God, and the nonsense was God.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 02, 2006, 06:47:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 07:54:00 PM
I wasn't trying to say bad things about you or Ashley I was pointing out that they don't know all of it. Sorry you felt I want you to explain. It really isn't these people business.
If you are happy and willing to take the consequences (should it fale) on how you handle this with Ashley that is great! You know how I feel about that. She is your daughter it is your choice you know her best.
Same goes for Jacki.
Even though I have talked to you a lot I really don't know you. Just like these people don't know Jacki but judge her only on the fact that Alex is at SCL.
"Ashley was not locked up and forced to confess everything to us."
She had to it was put there and Alex was coming home. But I am sure you believe it was because of you open communication. That is probably what I would see if it was my daughter. What ever works for you.
You also didn't have people like her boyfriends parents getting overly involved. I do find this strange. I would never I don't really know because I haven't experience it yet but I don't think my daughter would be talking to her boyfriend until he figured things out with his family and could show maturity and progress. Plus I would be 2 busy taking care of her. To get so involved in someone else's family. At least that is how I think I would handle it. I also believe if put on a site of all the things I do know and in hateful content. I could find people to disagree with how you seem to be more of a friend then a parent and how this can back fire on you.
I do wish you and Ashley the best of luck. I don't want to see any teenager screw up their life. I really have nothing against you or her. I understand that people handle things different. I guess I wished you understood also. I know you have only been nice to me to get info on Alex and I am ok with that. I have been doing it more for Alex then anyone.
I guess I am no longer needed for now. We will see how things turn out. Lets just pray that he has figured things out and now clean will continue to move forward.
Post by: Ashley's Mom on March 02, 2006, 08:13:00 PM
No, you are right. Ashley had to tell us before Alex came home. She knew that. I told you before, I knew she was hiding something from us, and I told you that. Bottom line is she did tell us. You even agreed that you knew she must have been scared. I'm sorry if you feel we are more of a friend to our daughter than parents, but up until this point she has turned out pretty damn good, and we are very proud of her. I am sure she will continue to do well. I hope all turns out the way you all hope for with Alex. At one point you were also wanting him out of that place just as much as us. I don't know what happened over the last couple of days.
I know we have never met, but I thought we were getting somewhere. I am sorry if you feel I was using you. Maybe one day, when this has all calmed down, we will meet. Good luck with your daughter.
Leslie
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 02, 2006, 10:28:00 PM
I guess what I was trying to say was there will always be people that don't agree with the way other people do things you can always find people who think the same thing is good and others think it is bad.
I re read my post and still haven't figured out why you think all of a sudden I don't want him out. I am very happy he is coming home. I wont see him right away seeing it fell on my vacation. But that is ok he needs time with his parents.
I guess we will see what happens with us. I guess that when you say things like ..Ashley was not locked up and forced to confess everything to us. It feels like a cheep shot. maybe I am not sure how to take it. I have never told you I felt you were wrong on the way you handled things with Ashley. I have always said it is your choice she is your daughter. I am sure things will work out with her she is a smart kid.
Well I have a bad headache again and my little one is fighting going to sleep and I have to get ready for my vacation. I hope that cleared things up if not we will talk later.
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 11:14:00 PM
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PS-I hope the judge reams his parents for having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law.
Honestly I can't see any judge addressing aunts, who are not legal guardians, by reprimanding their comments posted on a forum.
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 11:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-02 20:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
PS-I hope the judge reams his parents for having the same type of attitude, and disrespect that you show here for the law.
Quote
Honestly I can't see any judge addressing aunts, who are not legal guardians, by reprimanding their comments posted on a forum."
I think they meant that they hope the judge reams the parents out for trying to hide their son out, thus showing disrespect for the law. Much as you have shown here in support of that decision.
Post by: Anonymous on March 02, 2006, 11:22:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2006, 06:51:00 AM
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On 2006-03-02 20:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just hope the judge realizes that the kid has more rights in jail than he does at SCL. I hope she reams them out for abdicating their parental responsibilities to a bunch of quack snake oil con men."
Would it be different if the courts put him there?
Post by: Anonymous on March 03, 2006, 08:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-03 03:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-02 20:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I just hope the judge realizes that the kid has more rights in jail than he does at SCL. I hope she reams them out for abdicating their parental responsibilities to a bunch of quack snake oil con men."
Would it be different if the courts put him there?
"
In what way?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 03, 2006, 12:52:00 PM
I think all people involved with RTC's are distancing themselves from them. WWASPS is giving them all a bad name, even though they are in no way connected. So, I don't think you will see the legal system recommending these places.
Enjoy your vacation CIM.........I myself am leaving shortly for Tahoe for the weekend. I think we are all in need of a little R & R!!! I hate batteling it out with people, but I just want you to understand what these places are all about. I wish it was different. I wish WWASPS was different. But, the truth is they are not.
I hope that everyone has a wonderful weekend.
:wave:
Post by: Antigen on March 03, 2006, 07:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-03 03:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Would it be different if the courts put him there?
"
Yes:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 49&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14149&forum=9)
It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples
--Charles Dickens
Post by: Anonymous on March 04, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 05, 2006, 01:21:00 AM
...the coercive collectivist State is distinctly uninterested in the cultivation of intelligence and wisdom. This is understandable...for the State has no uses to which persons of intelligence and wisdom can be put.
--Albert Jay Nock.
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2006, 12:07:00 AM
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On 2006-03-02 10:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Oh, by the way Aunt Shelly, do you know why it matters so much to you that you get the sympathy or at least some understanding from all the survivors here?
It's because they're proxies for Alex for you. You're seeking their understanding in the hope that *he* will understand and think well of you.
The reason you're now insisting that they aren't so very much like Alex, having been there longer, and that their parents aren't so very much like Alex's parents, is because they aren't giving you that tacit permission to fail Alex like you're doing.
Since they won't give you permission to fail, you're trying to tell yourself that they're not so very much like Alex after all and therefore that their reactions to your behavior are unrepresentative of what Alex would and will think of you.
And all this comes from your guilty conscience because you know you shouldn't be taking the easy way out. You *know* it's a bad place and know you should be telling your sister and brother-in-law off. You know you should confront them in no uncertain terms and let them know that *you* have no sympathy for the horrible thing they're doing, and that you will not continue to make excuses for them.
You are enabling their bad behavior, and you know damned well you are, and you feel guilty. As you should.
You're here because it's the closest you can come to explaining yourself to Alex, and you're distressed because all these people who have been where Alex is now aren't buying your excuses and enabling *you*.
Julie"
Julie, What is this, a drive-by psychoanalysis?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 06, 2006, 11:27:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 06, 2006, 12:19:00 PM
I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!!!
ALEX! ALEX! ALEX! ALEX! ALEX!
Post by: Antigen on March 06, 2006, 02:42:00 PM
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On 2006-03-05 21:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Julie, What is this, a drive-by psychoanalysis?"
Just what I was thinking. But probably more acurate than the drive by psycholalysis that landed you in that cult of yours.
It is wrong to leave a stumbling stone in the road after it has tripped you.
Hands Out Light
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2006, 02:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-06 11:42:00, Eudora wrote:..
"Quote
On 2006-03-05 21:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Julie, What is this, a drive-by psychoanalysis?"
Just what I was thinking. But probably more acurate than the drive by psycholalysis that landed you in that cult of yours.
:tup: Well said.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 06, 2006, 02:59:00 PM
http://maxweb01.macombcountymi.gov/pa/p ... lst?640319 (http://maxweb01.macombcountymi.gov/pa/pa.urd/pamw2000.docket_lst?640319)
Can someone tell me what all this means? Was he there or not? All the legal shorthand, I am not making much sense of it.
Thank you!
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2006, 03:02:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 06, 2006, 03:59:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
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On 2006-03-06 12:59:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"God would you people just go get a life!!"
So he's not home then, correct?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 06, 2006, 04:21:00 PM
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On 2006-03-06 12:59:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"God would you people just go get a life!!"
Let me help you get it through that thick skull of yours, and into your tiny brain ::bangin::
WE ARE NOT LETTING UP!!!!
Now, if you choose to, you can get the fuck off this site, and continue on with your life (and I really wish you would, since it's obvious you have no interest in helping Alex)! But, we are here to stay.
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2006, 05:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-06 11:43:00, Anonymous wrote:..
"Quote
On 2006-03-06 11:42:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-05 21:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Julie, What is this, a drive-by psychoanalysis?"
Just what I was thinking. But probably more acurate than the drive by psycholalysis that landed you in that cult of yours.
:roll:
Post by: Anonymous on March 06, 2006, 07:53:00 PM
Post by: Shlee on March 06, 2006, 10:52:00 PM
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On 2006-03-06 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, we won. Alex is home. We really showed his parents. They lose and I win. He's living with me now. ha ha Alex's mom and aunts"
Alright, this is ridiculous. Whoever wrote this is very immature and I know it wasn't me. So does everyone else on this damn forum. Especially Eudora and the ones that can read IP addresses. And, I would also like to say that, when I write, I sound much more intelligent than that. That is an insult. I'm not that ignorant, and I know how to use proper punctuation and capitalization. Very childish and I pity you for that. Maybe, you will grow up someday...
P.S. I know how to sign in under my screen name and not try to get away with posting anonymously, and blatantly making it sound like myself. *shakes head* Stupid
Post by: Shlee on March 06, 2006, 10:56:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 07:02:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 07:56:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-06 16:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, we won. Alex is home. We really showed his parents. They lose and I win. He's living with me now. ha ha Alex's mom and aunts"
That's how you guys have been looking at this situation from the beginning. Win/lose for you. What a shame. It's about doing the right thing for Alex, not who "wins" between you guys and Ashley. :roll:
And I have to say that she's shown much more maturity here than any of you have.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 09:53:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 10:21:00 AM
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On 2006-03-07 06:53:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"I did not post what was written, check ip address if you want. It is easy to act mature when you always get your own way. As for staying off this site, I will do what I please just as you do CCM girl. I am interested though to hear about the abuse you all said he suffered through. Also the hobbit is no longer. That was supposed to be what this was about. That he was in an abusive place being mistreated. So now that has changed and any of the things that we stated have not been addressed because you have no answer.
No, they haven't been addressed because we'd like to hear from Alex himself what his experience was like. We'd rather not hear it filtered through anyone.
Quote
I will see them as they really are."
You'll see them as you'd like to see them.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 10:45:00 AM
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On 2006-03-07 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:I would never presume to speak of his experiences there. He is responsible for that if he chooses to post here. And again I will see things as they really are. What I would like and what is real are two different things. I do know better. If there was no abuse, then all this has been blown out of porportion but will never be admitted here. That was what I meant to get across.
"Quote
On 2006-03-07 06:53:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"I did not post what was written, check ip address if you want. It is easy to act mature when you always get your own way. As for staying off this site, I will do what I please just as you do CCM girl. I am interested though to hear about the abuse you all said he suffered through. Also the hobbit is no longer. That was supposed to be what this was about. That he was in an abusive place being mistreated. So now that has changed and any of the things that we stated have not been addressed because you have no answer.
No, they haven't been addressed because we'd like to hear from Alex himself what his experience was like. We'd rather not hear it filtered through anyone.QuoteI will see them as they really are."
You'll see them as you'd like to see them."
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 10:47:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 10:54:00 AM
Hopefully Alex got out before too much damage was done. I've said here before that I'm much more concerned about the emotional and psychological fallout of being in there than I am about the physical abuse, although that obviously concerns me too.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 07, 2006, 11:13:00 AM
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On 2006-03-07 06:53:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"I did not post what was written, check ip address if you want. It is easy to act mature when you always get your own way. As for staying off this site, I will do what I please just as you do CCM girl. I am interested though to hear about the abuse you all said he suffered through. Also the hobbit is no longer. That was supposed to be what this was about. That he was in an abusive place being mistreated. So now that has changed and any of the things that we stated have not been addressed because you have no answer. I hope that Alex makes wise choices about his life, as he is in charge of it now. I really think he will because he is very smart and realizes what he does will affect the rest of his life. You can swear at me all day long, and that will not change what is. You see things as you want because of your awful years at CCM. That is fine. I will see them as they really are."
Are you kidding me? Just because they got rid of the "hobbit" means that SCL is no longer abusive?!!! :smile:
Post by: Antigen on March 07, 2006, 12:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-06 12:59:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"God would you people just go get a life!!"
When you get a traffic ticket, do you annoy the cop by suggesting that he should be going after someone else?
Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877
Post by: Antigen on March 07, 2006, 12:26:00 PM
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On 2006-03-07 06:53:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"I did not post what was written, check ip address if you want.
If I had to guess, I'd say it was his mom or dad. But I'd only be guessing.
Quote
It is easy to act mature when you always get your own way.
Oh yeah! It's a charmed life this gal is leading! Born with a silver spoon in her mouth, everything handed to her.
She may look like just a creative, angst filled teenaged girl, but that's just a clever ruse!
She planned this whole thing right from the beginning. See, Alex was starting to see through the gothic deception and take interest in other girls. So, genious that she is, Shlee knew that if he were abducted and held captive in some creepy place in Montana, it would give her that opportunity to play the heron and that would seal it.
She's the one who called posing as an edcon and put the idea into Alex' parents heads in the first place. Actually, she's not even a teenager at all. That's all part of the act. She's really an 80 year old devil worshiping master of Gothic deception and her mother is actually her great, great grandaughter. They all come from a long line of Illuminatti breeders.
Tell yourself whatever I want you to, I guess. But could you at least show us enough respect to be a bit creative and entertaining about it?
Quote
As for staying off this site, I will do what I please just as you do CCM girl. I am interested though to hear about the abuse you all said he suffered through. Also the hobbit is no longer. ...
... called the hobbit. It's called the quiet room now, or some such.
Quote
That was supposed to be what this was about. That he was in an abusive place being mistreated. So now that has changed and any of the things that we stated have not been addressed because you have no answer. I hope that Alex makes wise choices about his life, as he is in charge of it now.
I think he probably will. But I don't know the guy. I hope you and his parents will grow the humility and courage to realize how you've been punked, to burry the hatchet for real and come back together as a family w/ genuine respect and forgiveness all around.
Quote
I really think he will because he is very smart and realizes what he does will affect the rest of his life. You can swear at me all day long, and that will not change what is. You see things as you want because of your awful years at CCM. That is fine. I will see them as they really are."
Yeah, exactly. I was never at CCM, I was in another couple of Synanon based cults. I see things as they are because, unlike you, I've been there.
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."--
Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See
God is inconceivable, immortality is unbelievable, but duty is peremptory and absolute.
--George Eliot, author
Post by: Antigen on March 07, 2006, 12:29:00 PM
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On 2006-03-07 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
No, they haven't been addressed because we'd like to hear from Alex himself what his experience was like. We'd rather not hear it filtered through anyone.
Not me. This kid has just been through a series of disorienting, mind bending events. If he'd like to drop a line or three, I'd be rivetted! But no pressure. Enjoy your relative freedom, Alex, while you go about setting right this little mess. And it really is only a little one, as messes go in this life. It may not seem so right now, but it is.
Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 12:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 09:29:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-07 07:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
No, they haven't been addressed because we'd like to hear from Alex himself what his experience was like. We'd rather not hear it filtered through anyone.
Not me. This kid has just been through a series of disorienting, mind bending events. If he'd like to drop a line or three, I'd be rivetted! But no pressure. Enjoy your relative freedom, Alex, while you go about setting right this little mess. And it really is only a little one, as messes go in this life. It may not seem so right now, but it is.Peace and abstinence from European interferences are our objects, and so will continue while the present order of things in America remain uninterrupted.
--Thomas Jefferson
"
Picky, picky! :wink: Yes, agreed. My hope is that Alex sees this as a bump in the road and is able to move on. What I meant was that I wasn't going to take anyone's word but Alex's that he wasn't abused.
So there! :razz:
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 12:33:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
Picky, picky! :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 09:26:00, Eudora wrote:Quote
It is easy to act mature when you always get your own way.
Oh yeah! It's a charmed life this gal is leading! Born with a silver spoon in her mouth, everything handed to her.
She may look like just a creative, angst filled teenaged girl, but that's just a clever ruse!
She planned this whole thing right from the beginning. See, Alex was starting to see through the gothic deception and take interest in other girls. So, genious that she is, Shlee knew that if he were abducted and held captive in some creepy place in Montana, it would give her that opportunity to play the heron and that would seal it.
She's the one who called posing as an edcon and put the idea into Alex' parents heads in the first place. Actually, she's not even a teenager at all. That's all part of the act. She's really an 80 year old devil worshiping master of Gothic deception and her mother is actually her great, great grandaughter. They all come from a long line of Illuminatti breeders.
:rofl: :rofl:
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 07, 2006, 01:05:00 PM
A little copy, and paste :razz: !!!!
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 04:16:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 04:22:00 PM
Are you kidding me? Just because they got rid of the "hobbit" means that SCL is no longer abusive?!!!
That wasn't what was said. Can't you comprehend what you read?
I'm curious to know if your IQ has ever been tested Aunt Shelly? Would you care to tell us what it is? I mean if you are on the slow side of things (which it seems you are), I might cut you some slack!
Resulting to insults again. My IQ was tested when my daughters was for school. I fell in the 158 range. You?
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 04:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 13:16:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Amazing how what is said here can be twisted to such a creative response. Yes, you have been there. I thankfully had a wonderful childhood. I was not left at an abusive place to rot. That has to shadow the whole rest of your life and how you think."
What about the fact that they used the Hobbit in the first place? Does that not concern you? It's no use asking you if you're bothered by the isolation, deprivation etc because it's obvious you're just fine with it. Even if Alex was lucky enough not to be subjected to the Hobbit, even if it's no longer used (as I said, not ready to believe that, but for argument's sake) how in the hell can anyone justify sending a kid to a place that would employ such measures.....at all?
Quiet room. What, because they change the name of it that makes it all OK now huh? :roll:
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 05:17:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 05:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 05:58:00 PM
What's so complicated about that?
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 06:13:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 06:14:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 15:13:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"If you read back to earlier posts, they were really in fear for his life. Having him removed from the situation was what they felt remained left. "
Yet when they were made aware of the situation there, they did nothing and fought even harder for him to remain there.
Sad. Hope he can forgive them one day.
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 06:17:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 15:14:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"All the negative things were found out after he was started in the program and doing well with it. "
So, no matter that this program has been proven to be abusive. No matter that at least one kid died while in their custody, no matter that they have a fondness for locking kids up in tiny little holes...as long as he's walking and talking like a good little boy he's "doing well".
:roll:
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 07, 2006, 07:23:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 07:36:00 PM
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On 2006-03-07 16:23:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"No matter what is said there will be no understanding between the people here. Alex is home and safe. That is all that matters."
Yeah, well that and the broken trust between he and his parents. Before you start in on how he broke the trust....he's a kid. That's expected. It's not of parents, at least not to this degree.
Post by: Antigen on March 07, 2006, 07:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 13:16:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
That has to shadow the whole rest of your life and how you think."
No, not really. It just adds dimension and color to how I view shady purveyors of quack therapy; most especially the LGA variety.
I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! But I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!
-- Monty Python
Post by: Antigen on March 07, 2006, 07:58:00 PM
:roll:
The place doesn't matter. Even if they had changed the name of the whole compound, not just that one little shack. It's the same PEOPLE.
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.
--Philosopher, Blaise Pascal
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 09:33:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 09:37:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 11:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 18:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is it any different? Why the name change?"
No, it's most probably the same old shit. The name doesn't matter. In Casa, they called it R&R. In TB, they call it OP. In SCL, the official name was "Special Needs Room", and now it's "intervention" ("hobbit" is a slang term used by the prisoners). It doesn't matter. It's all the same thing.
Post by: Anonymous on March 07, 2006, 11:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 20:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-07 18:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is it any different? Why the name change?"
No, it's most probably the same old shit. The name doesn't matter. In Casa, they called it R&R. In TB, they call it OP. In SCL, the official name was "Special Needs Room", and now it's "intervention" ("hobbit" is a slang term used by the prisoners). It doesn't matter. It's all the same thing. "
Yeah, I know. I was just wondering what they're saying the difference is, how they're trying to pass if off and explain it away to parents now.
Post by: Antigen on March 08, 2006, 12:18:00 AM
Same shit, different dressing. Even a pickle on the side won't help.
Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
Post by: Anonymous on March 08, 2006, 09:12:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 08, 2006, 11:40:00 AM
The answer to your question, he is a child, that is quickly becoming an adult. He should be able to make his own choices, and nobody is perfect, and we ALL make mistakes!!!! So, he is expected to make a few mistakes along the way. The most important thing when someone makes a mistake............did you learn from it? If you are making the same mistake over, and over, and over..........then something is wrong?!! But, most of us learn from our mistakes.
Who's asking this question? It sounds like an angry parent question!!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on March 08, 2006, 11:44:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-08 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Question: Is he a child who is expected to make mistakes or is he an adult who should be able to make his own choices? You can't have it both ways. The aunts are right in that respect that certain things have never been answered here. Lets see if this question is swiped under the rug and not acknowledged."
It's not a black and white issue. At all. That right there is how the majority of these places view things w/r to kids. It's either this way or that way. That's not real life. He's both. In some ways he's immature and immature behavior is to be expected, but that doesn't mean he gives up the right to have a say in his own "treatment" and what ultimately happens to him. Christ, kind of barbaric if you ask me.
Post by: Anonymous on March 08, 2006, 12:56:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-08 06:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Question: Is he a child who is expected to make mistakes or is he an adult who should be able to make his own choices? You can't have it both ways. The aunts are right in that respect that certain things have never been answered here. Lets see if this question is swiped under the rug and not acknowledged."
Society has it both those ways all the time.
At somewhere between ten and sixteen, most people become biologically adult in the sense of being able to make babies. People ordinarily can't have their parental rights to their biological offspring signed away by their own parents no matter how young they are when they make a baby.
At 14, judges start ordinarily taking a person's request for which divorced parent he wants to live with.
At 16, someone can get a job without parents' permission, can usually get a drivers' license (although some states have changed some rules), can usually quit school without parents' permission, can frequently get an abortion without parental notification or consent.
At 17, someone can join the military *with* parental consent.
At 18, someone can join the military without parental consent, get a wider range of jobs with fewer restrictions, can legally make contracts, can move out and live wherever they want without parental consent, can marry without parental consent.
The age of sexual consent varies between sixteen and eighteen depending on the state.
In my home state, a girl as young as 14 can become an emancipated minor if she gets pregnant and gets parental consent to marry and marries. From that moment, she's emancipated under the law.
In California, especially, there are emancipation of minors issues that revolve around kids in show business that have the clear ability to support themselves and have Mommy or Daddy trying to live big on junior's money. Teenage actors or singers can and do get emancipated to get Mommy or Daddy's sticky fingers out of the kid's bank account.
At 21, someone can drink legally.
Adulthood has just about always been a gradual process of increasing rights and responsibilities, and increasing numbers of areas where the person becomes legally able to go against one or both parents' wishes.
And, of course, in the matter of crimes, whether an accused is tried and punished (if convicted) in the adult or juvenile justice system depends a whole lot on the details of the alleged offense.
For the justice system, a person isn't either absolutely a kid or absolutely an adult---it depends on what act or decision you're talking about and the particulars surrounding it.
Our society "has it both ways" all the time on how much of an adult a person is between the ages of 14 and 21.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 08, 2006, 01:16:00 PM
I wish him luck with his court date and all the best as he goes on with his life.
Alex, even if your court date works out as the worst case, which I doubt it will, another poster was right in saying that in the big picture of your whole life, it's a small mess.
Well, a felony charge isn't all that small, but as felonies go, this is small and something you *can* easily choose to move on from.
What's the old saying, today is the first day of the rest of your life?
I'm glad you're out and free.
Best wishes with your life now as you move on and decide what you want to do with it.
Even if the worst case happens and you end up having to do a little time in jail, you can use it studying for your GED or whatever other school options you plan on pursuing. You'll at least get visitors and get your mail.
Hopefully, they'll go easier on you than that and you won't have to go at all. Maybe you'll get community service or something, or even beat the rap.
Either way, now that you're out of that place, and among friends who are obviously good people, you're gonna be okay.
Best of luck.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 08, 2006, 02:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-07 21:18:00, Eudora wrote:
"In Straight it was the Timeout Room or TR, in Elan it was the corner (litterally, they'd sit w/ their faces in the corner for hours or days)... I think it may have been the Roloff ones that called it the quiet room...
Same shit, different dressing. Even a pickle on the side won't help.Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
"
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 08, 2006, 03:15:00 PM
At Heritage it was called CRISIS!
hahahahahahahaha :lol:
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 09, 2006, 12:48:00 AM
:lol:
Post by: Antigen on March 09, 2006, 11:16:00 AM
Can you believe it? Feels good! Everybody daydreamed about this when they were stuck in their gulags. This is so cool! I wonder how many hundreds or thousands of such stories I'll read before it gets blase.
What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?
Henry Kissinger
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 09:16:00 AM
Quote
The answer to your question, he is a child, that is quickly becoming an adult. He should be able to make his own choices, and nobody is perfect, and we ALL make mistakes!!!! So, he is expected to make a few mistakes along the way. The most important thing when someone makes a mistake............did you learn from it? If you are making the same mistake over, and over, and over..........then something is wrong?!! But, most of us learn from our mistakes.Quote
Make his own choices, when he gets his own place to live that he pays for. Guess he cant because even if he had his own apartment there are still rules.
And you know he hasn't made them over and over?
How about this! He is a young adult that will make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. He still needs some guidance. Guidance from his parents that know him best. Not someone who has known him for only 7 months this person sounds like a easy push over.
Problem one sounds to me like someone is getting to involved and hasn't let the parents and Alex have time together. Had to rush right over. They have known him for like 7 months but they know what is better for him then his parents? LOL They are strange people.
Good luck Alex! Don't live with girl friend not a good idea. Work it out Alex I am sure they are not the only ones that like you. Get you balls out of your girl friends purse and become a man. You do not have to do what she wants you to do I want you to do what you want or what feels right to you. You are the one that will pay for anything that can happen It is your choice. Sounds to me like you need a new start.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 11, 2006, 09:27:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-08 21:48:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"It got awfully quiet!!!!!!! It's kinda nice though. Those Aunties of his can go back to their boiling caldron.
:lol: "
Your such a BITCH you knew I was on vacation. But I am back guess what it may stay quite. Back to our boiling caldron? Ya I am the bad Auntie sorry but you still have no idea half of what has happen.
I can see why step mommy had you sent away!
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 09:36:00 AM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 11, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
Problem one sounds to me like someone is getting to involved and hasn't let the parents and Alex have time together. Had to rush right over. They have known him for like 7 months but they know what is better for him then his parents? LOL They are strange people.
Good luck Alex! Don't live with girl friend not a good idea. Work it out Alex I am sure they are not the only ones that like you. Get you balls out of your girl friends purse and become a man. You do not have to do what she wants you to do I want you to do what you want or what feels right to you. You are the one that will pay for anything that can happen It is your choice. Sounds to me like you need a new start."
Great post to the person who wrote this. I couldn't of said it better myself. Unfortunately, it won't be appreciated here. Welcome back Pam. Hope you had a great time. Well, back to casting spells.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 11, 2006, 10:52:00 AM
Read it again!!
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 01:17:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 02:39:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 11, 2006, 02:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-11 06:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
How about this! He is a young adult that will make mistakes and hopefully learn from them. He still needs some guidance. Guidance from his parents that know him best.
How about this; never take advice and guidance from someone who has paid to have you kidnapped and held captive in a remote compound run by creepy cult people.
When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 02:46:00 PM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 11, 2006, 03:11:00 PM
He mentioned no abuse to me. When he is ready he will post if what he says by then changes well then it does but as of now he said there was no abuse. Which should be a good thing. But not on this site! I am done for now.
Alex, if you do read this. I love you and will always be here you can call anytime. I know I told you that on the phone a few hours ago. Just so you remember! Keep up the great work on moving forward you can do anything once you set your mind to it.
over and out,
THE FUN COP
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 11, 2006, 03:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-11 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eudora, what part offended you? What part have you contrubuted to helping the young man? Other than your past experiences. If you can't bring anything to the table, then get off. This is where your forum is screwed up. A narrow minded mentality. "
I SECONED THIS. Just a way to try to get back at her parents maybe? Who knows.
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 03:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-11 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eudora, what part offended you? What part have you contrubuted to helping the young man? Other than your past experiences. If you can't bring anything to the table, then get off. This is where your forum is screwed up. A narrow minded mentality. "
She gave you all a forum to discuss all this stuff, if it weren't for her you wouldn't be here. So CIM and A.S. are you grateful to those who provided you with information here or not? Didn't Eudora help you in this way? You say -if you didn't bring anything to the table, then get off- she owns the table you are eating on, get a clue!
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 03:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-11 12:14:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-11 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eudora, what part offended you? What part have you contrubuted to helping the young man? Other than your past experiences. If you can't bring anything to the table, then get off. This is where your forum is screwed up. A narrow minded mentality. "
I SECONED THIS. Just a way to try to get back at her parents maybe? Who knows. "
Did anyone force you to come here? This site mostly attracts program survivors but then there's the small group of parents who come here DAY AFTER DAY and insist how much they hate this forum. IF you don't like it leave, what is so hard to figure out about this?????????
Post by: Anonymous on March 11, 2006, 03:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-11 12:11:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
" This is stupid. I just talked to him. He is doing good. He has goal set and is moving towards them. He will post when ready. One of his goals is to be with his parents. They are talking and working towards it. Of course Alex has things he has to deal with right now, and always will it is called life. We all do. So saying things about his parents and aunts I don't believe is helping you at all. He does no us and if he doesn't agree he still realizes that we do love him will always be here for him no matter what. Sorry you didn't have that with your family.
He mentioned no abuse to me. When he is ready he will post if what he says by then changes well then it does but as of now he said there was no abuse. Which should be a good thing. But not on this site! I am done for now.
Alex, if you do read this. I love you and will always be here you can call anytime. I know I told you that on the phone a few hours ago. Just so you remember! Keep up the great work on moving forward you can do anything once you set your mind to it.
over and out,
THE FUN COP"
Why are you still obsessed with this forum? That kid should move on with his life and not worry about posting on this forum. Nobody here needs to hear from him, he's out, thats good. Now he needs to get on with his life. Why bring him into your web of internet hate?
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 11, 2006, 06:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-11 12:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-11 11:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Eudora, what part offended you? What part have you contrubuted to helping the young man? Other than your past experiences. If you can't bring anything to the table, then get off. This is where your forum is screwed up. A narrow minded mentality. "
She gave you all a forum to discuss all this stuff, if it weren't for her you wouldn't be here. So CIM and A.S. are you grateful to those who provided you with information here or not? Didn't Eudora help you in this way? You say -if you didn't bring anything to the table, then get off- she owns the table you are eating on, get a clue!"
I do understand that she runs this site. Never said any different. Yes, the information here was helpful in some ways and detrimental in others. I am here to defend things that have been said about this family. Awful things that had no business being said here. Having done that I will make CCM girl happy and be done with it. There is nothing to be accomplished here by me anymore.
Post by: Anonymous on March 12, 2006, 12:48:00 PM
There.
Post by: Anonymous on March 12, 2006, 03:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-12 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You all need to shut the fuck up. According to his girlfriend, Alex is being brought back to Michigan.
There. "
Dah he is already here
Post by: Antigen on March 12, 2006, 05:50:00 PM
This entire project of mine, forums, mainstream media contact, lists, protests, books, art, music, concerts and every other damned thing I ever have or will do in regard to the Program are all themed on the same rediculously simple idea.
Every single high demand cult ever in all of history depends on controlling communications. They cut the inductee off from the world, in many ways even from self (no time to reflect, always on eggshells, etc.) they're cut off from friends and family while the Program devout go about the insidiously sick game of convincing themselves and everyone they contact that the kid who's locked up is a horrible, dangerous person who's not to be fully trusted EVER, but most especially if they diviate from program Dogma in word or deed or even subtle jestures like hairstyle, fashion or taste in music.
I seek to undermine that control and let the chips fall where they may. That's the whole thing. RAMPANT talking out in group is the key to undoing the whole mindfuck.
Now, I would LOVE to hear from Alex, either privately or publicly. But I don't presume any claim to compel him or you or anyone to speak to me at me or about me or not. It's entirely up to him if and how he wants to engage here.
I would imagine the kid's got a whole lot to think about these days. I know I did when I was in similar circumstance. I didn't even KNOW what I thought, I really had to take a good long while and sort myself out. Maybe he's a good deal smarter and more adept than I was. I sure can't say. But I certainly respect the prerogative of the individual to do and say as they see fit.
I do have to throw just one more brick bat, though. Aunt Shelly said " I am here to defend things that have been said about this family. "
Bwoohahahahaha!!! OMFG! Do you have any idea how completely hypocritical a statement that is? My God, woman! Go back and look at some of the fucked up things you and/or your family said about these nice people early on in this thread. And let's assume that it really was just the sibs and cousins spouting off. In what kind of environment does a kid get the idea that that's a proper, decent way to treat their cousin? Fuck! Talk about a kick em while they're down mentality.
You people have NO room to talk about trashing someone's character or family. But then, that's what the entire troubled parent industry is all about; scapegoating kids who are too "disordered" to be compliant little sychophants, eager to support your illusions.
Of course, it doesn't work so good when everybody's got access to all the info and plenty of time to think and check your stories.
:rofl:
There are two kinds of people; those who's lives have been somehow touched by harsh tragedy and those you don't know very well.
-- Ginger Warbis
Post by: Anonymous on March 12, 2006, 10:54:00 PM
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 12, 2006, 11:00:00 PM
Whichever, it's good that he's home and doing well.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 07:11:00 AM
Quote
Go back and look at some of the fucked up things you and/or your family said about these nice people early on in this thread. And let's assume that it really was just the sibs and cousins spouting off. In what kind of environment does a kid get the idea that that's a proper, decent way to treat their cousin? Fuck! Talk about a kick em while they're down mentality.
You really make yourself look stupid. You don't know these people you only know they wouldn't send there kid into a WWASPS program. Which makes you like them! They are liars, losers, FUCKED UP people. Half of the shit they put in early in thread where major lies but lets over look that. Lets only look at what the family of Alex said. Talk about closed minded.
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 10:55:00 AM
You did point out that they *didn't* send their kid to WWASPS. That is one positive data point.
Their postings online have seemed reasonable and moderately educated. Ashley and her parents seem to get along with each other and seem supportive of each other.
I think for anything else about them, I'll reserve judgment. Especially since it doesn't really matter to anybody what I think of them one way or the other.
Julie
Post by: Antigen on March 13, 2006, 01:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-13 04:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
Go back and look at some of the fucked up things you and/or your family said about these nice people early on in this thread. And let's assume that it really was just the sibs and cousins spouting off. In what kind of environment does a kid get the idea that that's a proper, decent way to treat their cousin? Fuck! Talk about a kick em while they're down mentality.
You really make yourself look stupid. You don't know these people you only know they wouldn't send there kid into a WWASPS program. Which makes you like them! They are liars, losers, FUCKED UP people. Half of the shit they put in early in thread where major lies but lets over look that. Lets only look at what the family of Alex said. Talk about closed minded."
I don't know these people and I don't know you, except what I can gather based on what you've all written and done. Are you trying to tell me that all those nasty lies and slander didn't come from you and yours? If you like, I could clear this up right quick and just tie all those anon posts from your ISP accounts to your username. Would that help?
Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.
--John Adams, U.S. President
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 01:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-13 10:12:00, Eudora wrote:
I don't know these people and I don't know you, except what I can gather based on what you've all written and done. Are you trying to tell me that all those nasty lies and slander didn't come from you and yours? If you like, I could clear this up right quick and just tie all those anon posts from your ISP accounts to your username. Would that help?
Don't know about her, but it would help me. How 'bout it? That certainly would clear things up and prove you're telling the truth, correct?
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 05:34:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 05:51:00 PM
Quote
I don't know these people and I don't know you, except what I can gather based on what you've all written and done. Are you trying to tell me that all those nasty lies and slander didn't come from you and yours? If you like, I could clear this up right quick and just tie all those anon posts from your ISP accounts to your username. Would that help?Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.
--John Adams, U.S. President
"
Go for it. I have no user name. I am sure you could lie and blame one of the Aunt's nobody can see it but you. Earlier I was signed on some where else with a network I know it uses different addresses a lot like AOL it could be 1 out of say 4. Now guess where I am. You can't match me up with any user names. I have none. I do know this family I was close to them at one time. The mother is overly involved and should be ashamed of herself. She feels like she has saved him she is prolonging his progress by showing him he can run from his problems with his parents which will just start a pattern. She should have not allowed him to move in. Who lets there daughters boyfriend live with them. Not me. He would have had to work his feelings out this way he can continue to hide them
Post by: Antigen on March 13, 2006, 06:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-13 14:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
Go for it. I have no user name. I am sure you could lie and blame one of the Aunt's nobody can see it but you. Earlier I was signed on some where else with a network I know it uses different addresses a lot like AOL it could be 1 out of say 4. Now guess where I am.
Probably using an offshore proxy, but maybe actually in Antioquia. Now who are you? That's the million dollar question. My guess would be that you're just the typical WWASP troll and never knew the family irl. Maybe you think having gone through the same seminars is just the same, but it's not.
Or maybe it's both. Maybe you're the WWASPie who recruted these parents. Who the hell knows? But no, I would never lie and say your posts belong to someone else. I think it would be helpful to all readers, though, if I could tie this other(?) anon's posts to their username.
- A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
- A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.
- But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.
--A Patriot
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 07:33:00 PM
Why come here and threaten people. What kind of site is this where the moderator give i/p addresses out or points out who is who? Why have anonymous at all? Why not show us what you typed under anonymous or Ashley's family? Shows the type of person you are.
Is it that hard for you to admit that you really don't know either family?
That all you know is what the people you see as good said. Or what parts you choice to remember and how you choose to see them.
Does it make you a good parent to allow your daughters boy friend to move in with her in your home? His parents didn't kick him out did they?
Post by: Antigen on March 13, 2006, 07:40:00 PM
It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat
Post by: Antigen on March 13, 2006, 07:42:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-13 16:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
Does it make you a good parent to allow your daughters boy friend to move in with her in your home? His parents didn't kick him out did they?
Boy is there a lot of mitigating context left out of that!
Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.
--James Madison, U.S. President
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 15, 2006, 11:54:00 AM
It's amazing to me how quickly Alex's family claims the victim role. They were talking all kinds of smack and still are. Then when they realize they are out numbered they whine about how WE attacked their family blah blah blah. I don't feel sorry for you. You've slung enough mud.........to erect a whole village of mud huts!!!!
BTW, I lived with my boyfriend, and his Mom. I was 19 and he was 18 and a senior in H.S., she caught all kinds of grief from people but she stood her ground. After he graduated, and attended JC for 1 year she bought us a great condo in Boulder, Co. smack dab on Pearl Street. Which is downtown. He attended university, I went into shock of being out of my element, and 2 months later returned to California.
So, I don't think there is much wrong with Leslie letting her daughters boyfriend live with them temporarily. Especially when Alex's parents have screwed up the trust between them. I think it's a natural reaction for Alex to want to go home. But, then he gets there, and probabley feels this isn't right either?!! It's tough, and I feel for him. In time it'll work out. But, there was a better way of going about this. Don't send away your child to strangers, and expect them to perform miracles.
Post by: Anonymous on March 15, 2006, 02:02:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 15, 2006, 06:58:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 15, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-15 11:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
"CCM- start your own myspace group! I'd join it. The problem with myspcae groups is one person is in charge, so they can ban at their whim and delete posts you worked all day on (happened to me). "
I got robbed! Oh well, I think it was cause this guy let out the "C" word! The girl that ran the site wasn't down with that. On her profile she said she was bi, but I think more lesbian if you read her profile! Definite manhater, and a Miranda hater too :lol:
You can't make everyone happy I suppose!
Post by: Anonymous on March 15, 2006, 08:05:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-15 15:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=14064181&categoryID=0&IsSticky=0&groupID=100272570&Mytoken=134A0DC8-DA3C-1372-CDB779ABFE1FEB6C13481116"
:rofl: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 03:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ahh, I was wondering how long it would take. Every "normal" teen does it so it is ok. With that kind of reasoning I can justify doing anything I want."
:question: :question: :question: :question:
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 12:49:00 PM
I am a former student of Spring Creek Lodge and of Mr. Keith Wood. He was definitely an amazing and compassionate man. He was always there to help and cared about each and every one of his students. Spring Creek Lodge was one of the best experiences of my life. It was a difficult journey but what do you expect a recovery program to be, easy? I don?t think you should post things that you have no personal experience of, because if it weren?t for SCLA myself and a lot of other successful former students would be lost. Spring Creek Lodge and Mr. Keith Wood along with many other of the staff have helped hundreds of confused lost and lonely young adults to find their true selves. they have assisted in bringing broken families back together. they assisted me in finding my purpose and setting up a values system for my life, as well as assisted me in repairing the relationship with my parents and family. Who I love very dearly to this day. Keith Wood was a good man, We all make non-working decisions in life, and no one knows what went on that night when this horrible tragedy happened. I am not saying that his choice was a good one because I don?t think that it was at all, but you cant blame SCLA for his actions. All I know is that at SCLA Keith Wood was a great person to be around and was always there to help. He had faith is each and every one of his students, and held them to a high standard for success. Keith Wood was a devoted man to his students and friends and he will be missed by many. He made a non-working decision but we will always love
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 01:49:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 02:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-18 09:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8118&forum=9&51
I am a former student of Spring Creek Lodge and of Mr. Keith Wood. He was definitely an amazing and compassionate man. He was always there to help and cared about each and every one of his students. Spring Creek Lodge was one of the best experiences of my life. It was a difficult journey but what do you expect a recovery program to be, easy? I don?t think you should post things that you have no personal experience of, because if it weren?t for SCLA myself and a lot of other successful former students would be lost. Spring Creek Lodge and Mr. Keith Wood along with many other of the staff have helped hundreds of confused lost and lonely young adults to find their true selves. they have assisted in bringing broken families back together. they assisted me in finding my purpose and setting up a values system for my life, as well as assisted me in repairing the relationship with my parents and family. Who I love very dearly to this day. Keith Wood was a good man, We all make non-working decisions in life, and no one knows what went on that night when this horrible tragedy happened. I am not saying that his choice was a good one because I don?t think that it was at all, but you cant blame SCLA for his actions. All I know is that at SCLA Keith Wood was a great person to be around and was always there to help. He had faith is each and every one of his students, and held them to a high standard for success. Keith Wood was a devoted man to his students and friends and he will be missed by many. He made a non-working decision but we will always love "
This was posted over a year ago---what made you do it again? Why post anonymous if you cared about him?
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 03:44:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 03:56:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 04:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 10:20:00 PM
My question is hypothetical. If you have been
abused in an RTC then I emphasize with your pain.
And I emphasize with your anger. I have written
my congressman and others and asked them to
HR1738. If you have been abused I urge you to
seek legal help and give survivor statements.
If you really want to close RTC'S then channel
your anger into something more meaningful than
your suggestions I forgo my constitutional right
to free speach. You see that is exactly what they
do at some RTC'S and now you want to use the
same methods they use physical violence and
restrictions of constutional liberties. How are
you any better than them.
Great Post ::rocker::
Post by: Anonymous on March 19, 2006, 01:07:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-18 13:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=102277816&MyToken=85f1e4c5-653a-4498-a366-677365bb5bec"
wow.. 11 members... :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on March 19, 2006, 01:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-18 12:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=13285410&groupID=102277816&adTopicID=29&Mytoken=A139D8A2-D6E6-B0E5-0DF2AE4A477DE8A629076320"
dont you have anything to say or do you just post links to other peoples stuff??
Post by: Anonymous on March 19, 2006, 01:19:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 11:30:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 20, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
A new, pro-wwasp site has been started. Please take action against this by forwarding the following message to customer service [located on the control panel at the bottom of the screen].
I would like to compain about the formation of the group http://groups.myspace.com/wwaspnotantiwwasp (http://groups.myspace.com/wwaspnotantiwwasp)
This group supports cult activity, which inflicts abuse to minors, of which I have personally experienced as a teenager. This group has personally assaulted me and several hundred of other members of myspace who now particiapte in groups which actively promote against WWASP, because of their personal experiences.
I am personally offended by the formation of this group, and feel as if my personal security is being disrupted.
The following is a link on wikipedia, a free and independent information source, which defines WWASP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWASP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWASP)
I am asking this group to be removed.
I TOOK THIS OFF OF MY SPACE, I GUESS SOMEONE STARTED A PRO-WWASP GROUP? I AM NOT SURE WHO WOULD BE WACKO ENOUGH TO DO THIS, BUT OBVIOUSLY THIS PERSON IS! TO EACH THEIR OWN.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 20, 2006, 03:54:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 04:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 12:54:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I think it's now 16! God, where do they find these people?!! They are misrepresenting having there friends join, that never went to WWASPS."
Plus theres those of us who are really anti-wwasp joining to share our views!
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 20, 2006, 04:40:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 05:43:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 08:28:00 PM
Why don't you leave them alone and let them enjoy talking to each other? You have your lets complain and fight, bitch site. Why can't they have theirs? They were thrown in there also shouldn't they have the same rights as you?
A post from there.
Quote
SCLA... june o3 to nov o4. Graduated.
I'm glad you made this site, I was getting tired of all the Anti-WWASP shit goin on in the others. It's sad how some people just don't learn. Hell, I'm not programized.. Far from. I accepted the reality that it happened and just moved on that's all..
Take Care. Love Ya'll.
LCpl. Baker
USMCQuote
He is someone fighting for our country.
I have also spread the word to give reasons why there forum should stay and a few other things and links.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 08:39:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 08:44:00 PM
So how is Alex doing?
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 08:54:00 PM
Quote
or maybe the program fucked with us so bad that we feel the need to be spiteful.
FUCK WWASP fucking money guzzling fake twisted bastards
Quote
Its not blaming our mishaps its the fact that were all standing up for what we believe and the majority of this group believes that WWASP was a money guzzling child abusing (not physically) Facility that we think needs to be shut down.... nobody on here is like "oh im so depressed cuz i got sent to SCL" Fuck that shit im not fucking depressed im fucking ticked off that a place can take away two years of your life for absolutely nothing i mean ya some people need it but im no different then i was before just cus my parents thought i was doing some fucked up shit well ya but maybe that fucked up shit in itself taught me about how i want to live my life..... not being fucking stuck in some room with 30 other kids like how fuck the only way im gonna get outta this bitch is to act like a zombie and get people to like me that i dont give a flying fuck about ...... fuck that shit fuck scl and fuck chaffin thats my fucking right so fuck you
Quote
You mentioned that it's not physically abusive, but let's not forget WWASP's other programs, such as TB
Quote
um excuse me, but just about my whole college fund (30g) was spent on sending me there. so....... dont speak unless you know what you're talking about.
Quote
Shut your bitch ass up. That is not the point, the point is if i wanted to go to college, I now have to figure out a way to pay for when i had done that in the first place. "College Funds" is designed for college, not a behavioral modification school.
Quote
exactly... its such a bitch having to pay for it all over again.
Quote
At any rate, my parents didn't pay for it- oh no, they suckered my poor, generous grandma into the deed. My grandma, who loves me as my parents never did, was the one who bore the brunt of the costs. She ended up paying for my parents' inability to handle what they got themselves into: actually having to raise their own kid!
I got kicked out of the house recently, and what do you know, my life has been rather pleasant ever since! Perhaps I was not the problem at hand? Perhaps, contrary to the beliefs of my "infallible" parents, THEY had the dilemma that needed to be solved! Maybe I was actually right- my mom is a psychotic bitch who thinks only of herself and the delusional life she lives! I mean, suddenly, right after being kicked out, I�m fine! I wonder if that means anything? What do you think, Kelly? That is, assuming you possess the ability to do so?
I have no idea what kind of person you are, or what kind of strange lifestyle you go by, but your views are absolutely insane. Stop embarrassing yourself and shut up.
Quote
Get off Chaffin and the programs nuts. Is david gilcrease paying you to say that or are you having to suck him off just so that you you can make your statement on his/thier behalf, cause that is what i think of your opinion.
Quote
you are a stupid bitch, straight up.
my parents spent my college fund too and now i have to work two jobs while going to school full time because of it. yeah, not fun.
just because you were brainwashed like an ignorant chess piece doesn't mean that you have to tell us that we're using spring creek to excuse our "mishaps" or our lives now. i don't regret spring creek because i refuse to regret anything that has brought me to this spot in my life, but i hate it more than anything.
think spring creek can't be negative? wait until you have nightmares every night and get diagnosed with ptsd.
god i hate people.
Quote
Lol. The program didnt save you- YOU saved yourself. c'mon now...be accountable. Either that or your just really dramatic.
My parents spent our House on that stupid shit and all I learned was how to restrain someone without leaving any marks.
So take your positivity elsewhere- it's not welcome here...lol.
Quote
And you can sleep and night knowing that hes taking the freedom of others in return.... Hes taking peoples wealth and all.......... Programized people and People in the armed forces piss me off.....
Quote
That shithole stole two years from me, and I can't get them back. If the program were no longer around, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if Kelly and people like her supported it. But as long as that place is alive and thriving, more and more people are going to be subjected to the same shit I had to go through.
Now, I see a lot of people on here with the attitude of "Who cares, it's not us; let them be, " and I guess they're lucky in a sense because obviously they don't get disturbed very easily. Well unfortunately for me, apparently I DO get disturbed, whether easily or not.
You mentioned that I "spread misery, " but on the contrary, I could never hope to be as much of a burden on the world as WWASP, even if it were my ultimate goal in life. (Which it isn't, though I'm sure a couple of you may disagree.) I probably can't do much to change things (at least not by myself), but when I see bull shit about how great WWASP is, the very least I can do is stomp it out. To ignore it would be sheer laziness. And if I happen to piss off a program-lover, all the better.
So go ahead, support the demise of Tucker and his superior car. Support the Salem witch trials. Support whatever the hell you want; I don't care how evil or stupid it is; just DO NOT support anything that continues hurting innocent people to this day, and will continue to hurt people for what could be a very long time. That is what pisses me off, and if you don't understand why, that sucks.
Quote
And yeah, while we're on the subject of that, I also get nightmares and have PTSD. You can call me a loser, a baby, whatever, but it is how it is; and if you think it's an indication of weakness, that only shows your lack of understanding for human psychology even further. (I'm not talking to you ET lol)
If you want to know why I hate that place so much (on a broader level), read "1984" by George Orwell; watch Braveheart; do research on the Comintern brainwashing techniques. It really shouldn't be hard to understand how two years of such hell could very easily scar someone for life.
Quote
i totally agree with you, sean.
i wish i could burn the motherfucker down.
Hey look, I can find quotes and paste them here too!! Do you really want to play this game?? Because I can find a LOT more than you can. I was at a WWASPS facility, were you?
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 08:58:00 PM
Quote
It just kills you that someone benefited from this place.
OH GOOD - an armchair Dr. Phil, thanks for the diagnosis via internet posting, that's better than Bill Frist can pull off!
Quote
How sad, you feel you are above everyone and can talk about your stay but nobody else's matters.
Thanks for clarifying that, you sure are good are diagnosing the feelings of others, perhaps you should start your own practice??
Quote
Maybe you just are not a likable person?
Awwww... that's not nice!
Quote
Why don't you leave them alone and let them enjoy talking to each other? You have your lets complain and fight, bitch site. Why can't they have theirs? They were thrown in there also shouldn't they have the same rights as you?
Glad you asked! It's because they came into the anti-wwasps groups and posted about their group, inviting us all there! If they wanted the group to be private, or screen members, they can do this - isn't myspace great?! So you'll have to take it up with the person who started the group.
So, what WWASPS facility were you at?
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 09:03:00 PM
Quote
You have your lets complain and fight, bitch site.
::both::
Quote
Why can't they have theirs? They were thrown in there also shouldn't they have the same rights as you?
Do you think myspace makes special rules for anti-wwasp groups? They could have made a group at any time, and have the exact same set of rules every other group has. Are you implying that the pro-wwasps groups are treated differently somehow? Your statement doesn't make a lot of sense!!!! I am glad they made it because you can see a real comparison .. 15 pro wwaspies, over a thousand anti!
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 09:52:00 PM
Someone started it so they don't have to be interrupted by anti people and you don't have to be interrupted by pro people. I don't understand why you are complaining?? With the groups separated everyone involved gets more out of it.
My post was for CCM girl saying she is going to right to have it shut down. Appears anti group is the bully here!!! The pro group never tried to shut the anti group down.. They wanted there own place to feel ok to say what they felt without being beat up over it.
They shouldn't have different rules then a anti wwasps forum. (I don't follow you on that one) That is my point. You have your anti they want there pro forums. So why should the pro forum be shut down but the anti wwasps should stay on?
Sounds more like you think anti wwasps should have more rules then pro?
The group started like what 1 month ago. I don't care if there was only 5. They should be able to have a group of people that they want to talk with.
Alex, sorry don't know him. Hopefully he is doing good and moving in the right direction.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:01:00 PM
If they wanted to be left alone, they should stay out of the anti-wwasp groups. They invited everyone to join and need to deal with what happens. You are saying they should be able to start their own group? They Did! So what is your point?!?! Why do you think wwasp is so great, did they save YOUR life? :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:03:00 PM
Quote
They shouldn't have different rules then a anti wwasps forum. (I don't follow you on that one) That is my point. You have your anti they want there pro forums. So why should the pro forum be shut down but the anti wwasps should stay on?
They DON'T have different rules. They DO have a pro-wwasp group now. It WON'T be shut down. Why do you argue a moot point? :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:08:00 PM
Quote
Glad you asked! It's because they came into the anti-wwasps groups and posted about their group, inviting us all there! If they wanted the group to be private, or screen members, they can do this - isn't myspace great?! So you'll have to take it up with the person who started the group.
This is what you are talking about?
Quote
Hey everyone! I posted a new group that is called WWASP not anti-wwasp, for some reason if you search wwasp in the group forum it doesn't come up, so for anyone that would like to join, you can either search for the full name or search under schools and alumni. I would like to keep this group for people who feel positively about wwasp. I understand majority of people feel negatively about wwasp and that's fine, that's your right to feel that way, there's many groups where people can freely talk about what they don't like about wwasp, now I want people to feel they can freely talk about why wwasp worked for them or their memories, etc. Thanks
Sounds very nice to me. I see nothing against you.
Quote
I understand majority of people feel negatively about wwasp and that's fine, that's your right to feel that way, there's many groups where people can freely talk about what they don't like about wwasp,
Now a group that will work for a few, like I said even if it is 5 people they also have rights.
Quote
I want people to feel they can freely talk about why wwasp worked for them or their memories, etc. Thanks
She sounds nice. You sound like you are hating on these people. Why should they have to put a password on it. You should respect them as they respect you. There is a lot of people that only come here to read and don't post that can see how you think twisting things around works to your advantage. Let me tell you most see right through it.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:12:00 PM
Quote
Now a group that will work for a few, like I said even if it is 5 people they also have rights.
Oh yes, they are soooo oppressed, puhlease. Are you kidding? They haev every right to make a group and did.
So what is your point? Seriously.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:15:00 PM
Quote
Sounds very nice to me. I see nothing against you.
Quote me whree I am 'hating' please. Quote anyone who posted in their group something 'hateful'.
WTF are you arguing about? Seriously, what is your point? They have their own group, complete control over it, and you are still here complaining.
remember when you said THIS
Quote
You have your lets complain and fight, bitch site.
Ironic coming from you, bitching about nothin.
:lol:
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:16:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:17:00 PM
I SEE THROUGH YOUR TWISTING OF THINGS
TRY SOMETHING NEW.
I'M BORED :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 19:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
" :question:
I SEE THROUGH YOUR TWISTING OF THINGS
TRY SOMETHING NEW.
I'M BORED :rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 17:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
or maybe the program fucked with us so bad that we feel the need to be spiteful.
FUCK WWASP fucking money guzzling fake twisted bastardsQuote
Its not blaming our mishaps its the fact that were all standing up for what we believe and the majority of this group believes that WWASP was a money guzzling child abusing (not physically) Facility that we think needs to be shut down.... nobody on here is like "oh im so depressed cuz i got sent to SCL" Fuck that shit im not fucking depressed im fucking ticked off that a place can take away two years of your life for absolutely nothing i mean ya some people need it but im no different then i was before just cus my parents thought i was doing some fucked up shit well ya but maybe that fucked up shit in itself taught me about how i want to live my life..... not being fucking stuck in some room with 30 other kids like how fuck the only way im gonna get outta this bitch is to act like a zombie and get people to like me that i dont give a flying fuck about ...... fuck that shit fuck scl and fuck chaffin thats my fucking right so fuck youQuote
You mentioned that it's not physically abusive, but let's not forget WWASP's other programs, such as TBQuote
um excuse me, but just about my whole college fund (30g) was spent on sending me there. so....... dont speak unless you know what you're talking about.Quote
Shut your bitch ass up. That is not the point, the point is if i wanted to go to college, I now have to figure out a way to pay for when i had done that in the first place. "College Funds" is designed for college, not a behavioral modification school.Quote
exactly... its such a bitch having to pay for it all over again.QuoteAt any rate, my parents didn't pay for it- oh no, they suckered my poor, generous grandma into the deed. My grandma, who loves me as my parents never did, was the one who bore the brunt of the costs. She ended up paying for my parents' inability to handle what they got themselves into: actually having to raise their own kid!
I got kicked out of the house recently, and what do you know, my life has been rather pleasant ever since! Perhaps I was not the problem at hand? Perhaps, contrary to the beliefs of my "infallible" parents, THEY had the dilemma that needed to be solved! Maybe I was actually right- my mom is a psychotic bitch who thinks only of herself and the delusional life she lives! I mean, suddenly, right after being kicked out, I�m fine! I wonder if that means anything? What do you think, Kelly? That is, assuming you possess the ability to do so?
I have no idea what kind of person you are, or what kind of strange lifestyle you go by, but your views are absolutely insane. Stop embarrassing yourself and shut up.Quote
Get off Chaffin and the programs nuts. Is david gilcrease paying you to say that or are you having to suck him off just so that you you can make your statement on his/thier behalf, cause that is what i think of your opinion.Quote
you are a stupid bitch, straight up.
my parents spent my college fund too and now i have to work two jobs while going to school full time because of it. yeah, not fun.
just because you were brainwashed like an ignorant chess piece doesn't mean that you have to tell us that we're using spring creek to excuse our "mishaps" or our lives now. i don't regret spring creek because i refuse to regret anything that has brought me to this spot in my life, but i hate it more than anything.
think spring creek can't be negative? wait until you have nightmares every night and get diagnosed with ptsd.
god i hate people.Quote
Lol. The program didnt save you- YOU saved yourself. c'mon now...be accountable. Either that or your just really dramatic.
My parents spent our House on that stupid shit and all I learned was how to restrain someone without leaving any marks.
So take your positivity elsewhere- it's not welcome here...lol.Quote
And you can sleep and night knowing that hes taking the freedom of others in return.... Hes taking peoples wealth and all.......... Programized people and People in the armed forces piss me off.....Quote
That shithole stole two years from me, and I can't get them back. If the program were no longer around, I wouldn't give a rat's ass if Kelly and people like her supported it. But as long as that place is alive and thriving, more and more people are going to be subjected to the same shit I had to go through.
Now, I see a lot of people on here with the attitude of "Who cares, it's not us; let them be, " and I guess they're lucky in a sense because obviously they don't get disturbed very easily. Well unfortunately for me, apparently I DO get disturbed, whether easily or not.
You mentioned that I "spread misery, " but on the contrary, I could never hope to be as much of a burden on the world as WWASP, even if it were my ultimate goal in life. (Which it isn't, though I'm sure a couple of you may disagree.) I probably can't do much to change things (at least not by myself), but when I see bull shit about how great WWASP is, the very least I can do is stomp it out. To ignore it would be sheer laziness. And if I happen to piss off a program-lover, all the better.
So go ahead, support the demise of Tucker and his superior car. Support the Salem witch trials. Support whatever the hell you want; I don't care how evil or stupid it is; just DO NOT support anything that continues hurting innocent people to this day, and will continue to hurt people for what could be a very long time. That is what pisses me off, and if you don't understand why, that sucks.Quote
And yeah, while we're on the subject of that, I also get nightmares and have PTSD. You can call me a loser, a baby, whatever, but it is how it is; and if you think it's an indication of weakness, that only shows your lack of understanding for human psychology even further. (I'm not talking to you ET lol)
If you want to know why I hate that place so much (on a broader level), read "1984" by George Orwell; watch Braveheart; do research on the Comintern brainwashing techniques. It really shouldn't be hard to understand how two years of such hell could very easily scar someone for life.Quotei totally agree with you, sean.
i wish i could burn the motherfucker down.
Hey look, I can find quotes and paste them here too!! Do you really want to play this game?? Because I can find a LOT more than you can. I was at a WWASPS facility, were you?"
It's Alex's Aunts or family who troll this forum still. If this troll had any idea of what it's like at WWASPS, why would they only quote other people? Because they have nothing to add themselves. Let them troll away, the longer this thread gets attention the more parents will read the truth of SCL - look how many pages and views this thread has. :tup: :tup:
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:29:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 13:40:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I refuse to even go there! I would never even want my face posted as a member of that group!!!
"
"I'm not into censoring people. I think you should be able to say whatever you like unless your threatening someones life, or something like that. People need to learn to get a tougher skin. People should have a certain amount of respect for others, but not everyone does. I find it a little humorous that there is now a pro-wwasp group! But, whatever............different strokes for different folks. I am not going to stop you."
This was on the Pro Wwasp site...isn't this you CCM Girl?
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:40:00 PM
I benefited from SCL. I needed and wanted change. I didn't get programmed or fall under there spell. I found good things here and there from the program and seminars and used it to my advantage.
But I wasn?t dropped off there and left for years.
I don't see anything wrong with taking every thing away from a kid and making them earn it back.
I also don't believe kids should be locked up for years if it isn?t working in 6 months then it wont work. I think the families should be able to visit twice a week.
My parent could have never done what was needed to be done themselves like some will say here.
"it is your job as a parent" I was totally out of control I would have hurt or even killed my mom if she tried taking everything away from me.
So it did work for me. But I can see how it may not for others. I wish someone would open a place were kids can be sent. but with rules.. on outside time. Parents must visit at least once a week or the kid is sent home. I noticed a lot of parents didn?t play much of a role in a few kids life?s. Review in 3 months to see if kid should stay next 3 months or go home. Stay no longer then 6 months total. Instead of break down build up seminars there should be self help or maybe self esteem groups. I never really figured it all out. All I do know is if I didn?t get sent there very bad things could have happen.
So if I weighed my options as these programs are today. I would want them closed.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:44:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
Quote
So if I weighed my options as these programs are today. I would want them closed.
As do I. But it's up to parents to make that decision and right now WWASPS is building more and more facilities so it doesn't look likely. The more 'armchair' supporters of WWASPS there are who claim it's not harmful, the more kids will get sent.
Post by: Antigen on March 20, 2006, 10:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 18:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
The pro group never tried to shut the anti group down..
I can quote people too!
Quote
Spring Creek Lodge, Inc
1342 Blue Slide Road * Thompson Falls * MT * 59873
Business # 406-827-4344 Fax # 406-827-4346
"January 16, 2004
To Whom It May Concern;
Please be advised as of the above date that legal counsel will be sought regarding formal litigation against your company should you fail to cease and desist all posted attempts at defamation, false statements, slanderous accusations, and person assaults against Spring Creek Lodge Academy and WWASP on the Fornits Forum which you host.
Unless these posts are removed immediately, you will receive communication from our legal counsel and legal proceedings will begin as of February 1, 2004. ...
--
Cameron Pullan, Director
Chaffin Pullan, Assistant Director
Spring Creek Lodge Academy
http://dchfans.org/dchfans/SCL002.rtf (http://dchfans.org/dchfans/SCL002.rtf)
Quote
Silvester & Conroy
Attorneys at Law
A Utah Limited Liability Company
Fred R. Silvester
230 South 500 East, Suite 590
Salt Lake City, Utah 84102
Tel (801) 532-2266
Fax (801) 532-2270
fred@silconlaw corn
January 16, 2004
Ms. Ginger Warbis
Host Fornits.com
##########
##########
Dear Ms. Warbis:
As you are well aware, this firm represents the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. We have followed the postings on your Fornits website for sometime. The commentaries on programs and schools that are members of our association have been false, misleading, and libelous. Now we find that your posters are also threatening witnesses, employees and others associated with the programs and the Association. We have informed BareMetal that your site violates their rules of conduct, and has been used by competitors in an unfair and unlawful manner....
Full Text: http://dchfans.org/dchfans/SCL001.rtf (http://dchfans.org/dchfans/SCL001.rtf)
Quote
January 21, 2004
Ginger Warbis
http://dchfans.org/dchfans/JFinlinson001.rtf (http://dchfans.org/dchfans/JFinlinson001.rtf)
More: http://dchfans.org/ (http://dchfans.org/)WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION
-- Ethiopian Proverb
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 19:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have seen you come here and post quotes from other people, but never have you ever contributed to the discussion yourself. Were you sent to a WWASPS facility? Were you a parent of a kid sent? Did you work there? Usually people who post on this forum have some knowledge of the programs they discuss, it would appear you have none. Why do you argue for abusive programs you know nothing about? I was abused at a WWASPS facility, so was a lot of other people that post here. Now, please tell me why you advocate a program that abused me. I really want to know. "
I have posted here a few times. I do not post here a lot. Not sure were you get that. when I seen CCM post....
Quote
On 2006-03-20 09:54:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Posted: Mar 20, 2006 8:34 AM
A new, pro-wwasp site has been started. Please take action against this by forwarding the following message to customer service [located on the control panel at the bottom of the screen].
I would like to compain about the formation of the group http://groups.myspace.com/wwaspnotantiwwasp (http://groups.myspace.com/wwaspnotantiwwasp)
This group supports cult activity, which inflicts abuse to minors, of which I have personally experienced as a teenager. This group has personally assaulted me and several hundred of other members of myspace who now particiapte in groups which actively promote against WWASP, because of their personal experiences.
I am personally offended by the formation of this group, and feel as if my personal security is being disrupted.
The following is a link on wikipedia, a free and independent information source, which defines WWASP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWASP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWASP)
and felt the urge to reply.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 10:59:00 PM
Quote
This group has personally assaulted me and several hundred of other members of myspace who now particiapte in groups which actively promote against WWASP, because of their personal experiences.
I am personally offended by the formation of this group, and feel as if my personal security is being disrupted.
This sounds reasonable to me. If someone raped you and then started a group for supporters of said rape, how would you react? ::noway::
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 11:01:00 PM
Quote
As you are well aware, this firm represents the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. We have followed the postings on your Fornits website for sometime. The commentaries on programs and schools that are members of our association have been false, misleading, and libelous.
I'll keep that in mind when bothering to address anon program trolls. It's probably WWASPS employees who are paid to come here and 'follow the postings'. :lol: :lol: Thanks for posting that Eudora, it says a lot about the place...
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 11:10:00 PM
They should be able to have a forum of there own.
Do you think they will not shut them down because 10 or 20 % said it worked for them.
they also say it sucked and was hard mentally to be locked up. That they didn?t agree with the program and how it was ran.
Keep up the fight, people would like and believe you more if you show respect for others. (NOT WWASPS FACILITY WORKERS)
Nobody is going to believe that the pro kids were just programmed. The % is still higher on anti wwasps people. So you are still winning.
These kids never said they agreed with everything about the program. It isn't completely the program that helped them. Maybe the reality check of being sent away and everything taken away. Having kids like them that realized the same thing. They probably weren?t left in there for years.
Just felt it was wrong to attack the pro group for starting a group just because they don't want to be beat up by anti group. No reason they can't have a place to talk. I am sure it wont be all great things but they should have a place they fell comfortable.
No point in me going on.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 11:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 20:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
As you are well aware, this firm represents the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. We have followed the postings on your Fornits website for sometime. The commentaries on programs and schools that are members of our association have been false, misleading, and libelous.
I'll keep that in mind when bothering to address anon program trolls. It's probably WWASPS employees who are paid to come here and 'follow the postings'. :lol: :lol: Thanks for posting that Eudora, it says a lot about the place..."
Ya I am a troll. Never heard them disagree with program at all.
I want you to find a better way out then to say I am a troll. You same 4 people who know the anonymous could be Eudora or CCM girl.
2 bad you couldn't just change a little more people might listen.
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 11:27:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 20, 2006, 11:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 20:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Try reading exactly what I wright and not what you want to here. We are talking about kids like you that were taken from there homes and put in these places not the facilities themselves.
They should be able to have a forum of there own.
Do you think they will not shut them down because 10 or 20 % said it worked for them.
they also say it sucked and was hard mentally to be locked up. That they didn�t agree with the program and how it was ran.
Keep up the fight, people would like and believe you more if you show respect for others. (NOT WWASPS FACILITY WORKERS)
Nobody is going to believe that the pro kids were just programmed. The % is still higher on anti wwasps people. So you are still winning.
These kids never said they agreed with everything about the program. It isn't completely the program that helped them. Maybe the reality check of being sent away and everything taken away. Having kids like them that realized the same thing. They probably weren�t left in there for years.
Just felt it was wrong to attack the pro group for starting a group just because they don't want to be beat up by anti group. No reason they can't have a place to talk. I am sure it wont be all great things but they should have a place they fell comfortable.
No point in me going on."
You are right, there is no reason to go on because you argue a moot point. They have a group, and always will. They won't be shut down. CCM can share her views, don't you agree? She can even email myspace admin if she wants, right? So what is your point exactly? They have their group, and anyone can join. Am I missing something?
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 21, 2006, 08:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-20 19:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-20 13:40:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I refuse to even go there! I would never even want my face posted as a member of that group!!!
"
"I'm not into censoring people. I think you should be able to say whatever you like unless your threatening someones life, or something like that. People need to learn to get a tougher skin. People should have a certain amount of respect for others, but not everyone does. I find it a little humorous that there is now a pro-wwasp group! But, whatever............different strokes for different folks. I am not going to stop you."
This was on the Pro Wwasp site...isn't this you CCM Girl?"
I do believe that they can have their own group. But, as others have let them come into their anti-wwasp groups, they should let them come into their pro-wwasps group.
It is a little ass backwards to have a pro-wwasp group. I find it so fricken bizarre I can't even tell you, but whatever........I've always said different strokes for different folkes.
It's a little hard to follow all this stuff! With all the ANON postings, I wish people would get a screename.
Ummm........obviously this ANON does not follow my postings in myspace too closely. Somebody created a topic, which I quoted here about going to complain about this pro-wwasp group. I had replied to her by saying they should be able to have their group.
I have never asked for anyone's group to be removed from my space. Truth be told.....I could really give a fuck less if they have a pro-wwasp group! I basically think it's a few individuals that just want to be different. Just like there are people who dream of being a cop.
When I post, 99.99999% I have always been logged in. I am not afraid to speak my mind. When it comes to my past, and my experiences that I had with WWASPS, sometimes I do get fearful. But, I have never said anything that wasn't true.
So, anyway........who gives a shit.........let them have their group. I checked it out, and I don't see anything great there. I mean there are no good examples of what part of the program they took with them. If the program was so great, and it saved their lives, I want to hear these people speak it, and be specific. But, like I said before most of them won't be able to. It's a group that wants to be different, and it's a small group of people that were probably picked on by the majority of the school.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 21, 2006, 08:54:00 AM
Posted: Mar 20, 2006 12:38 PM
"I dunno, people are entitled to start whatever group they like! However, I think they are whacked?!!! Hey, some people like being beat, and verbally abused, and punished. Not me, not most, but there are those out there that do!"
Post by: Ashley's Mom on March 21, 2006, 10:23:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 21, 2006, 11:12:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-21 07:23:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Alex is doing great. He is still staying with us. He and his family are trying to work through things. In the meantime, he is getting back into school to get his diploma and looking for a job. He seems pretty focused on what he wants to accomplish. "
That's good to hear. Pulling him out of SCL was the best thing then it seems, props to that judge who made a decision the parents seemed incapable of making themselves.
Post by: Anonymous on March 21, 2006, 11:21:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 21, 2006, 11:30:00 AM
On a different note, I am annoyed that my 2 posts on that pro-wwasp site were pulled. I didn't even say anything that bad!
I think they don't like me over there? Oh well, I am not losing sleep over it. But, now I am pissed because even though fornits is not my own, I know they come over here and post their b.s.!!!!!
Post by: Antigen on March 21, 2006, 11:33:00 AM
As to the anti-pro-wwasp countermovement, I'm w/ CCM here. I understand completely the impulse some people feel to want to shut them down. I think it's just leftover fear, but not paranoia.
In one way, a group that identifies as "not anti-wwasp" can be intimidating. It's a lot like a Klan rally. But there's really no need to go out of your way to stop them. But then, I'm one of those people who firmly believe that even the Klan or Black Panthers or anyone espousing any philosophy has the same God given right to expression as I do, no matter how strenuously I may disagree.
All we have to do is just take them up on their offer to engage in dialog.
To the not-anti-wwasp ppl, of course you all are still welcome to read and post here if and when you please. Same as it ever was, though, you're also entitled to any response anyone else wants to make.
Whenever you open a discussion on WWASP, you're going to get some extremely negative feedback. The only way to prevent that is to strictly screen, moderate and censor your discussion. At the end of the day, you wind up w/ a small handful of people who all agree and, therefore, have little to talk about. And how interesting is that? That's why Lon's forums are always so dead. Who wants to spend time and energy engaged in discussion where the conclusions are predetermined?
The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 09:01:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-21 07:23:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Alex is doing great. He is still staying with us. He and his family are trying to work through things. In the meantime, he is getting back into school to get his diploma and looking for a job. He seems pretty focused on what he wants to accomplish. "
That's great to hear he is able to get away from his parents!! From what we read on here they sounded like real nut-jobs. It's cool he has such good friends with sane parents. :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 10:22:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 10:24:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-22 07:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Let's talk again in a year"
Hey why dont you tell us what happens to a cake that isn't finished when you remove it from the oven, wwaspie. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 10:25:00 AM
Quote
Randall Hinton, admits to the camera and the interviewer that he pepper-sprayed the boy several times a day for months at a time. Hinton also hog-tied the kid for hours on end in solitary confinement, dragged him, busted his chin, chipped a tooth, made him wear a diaper made out of a trash bag, and scrubbed his genitals with a toilet brush covered in pepper-spray. Ken Kay and another staff member were also present and helping when this incident happened, according to the boy's sworn testimony.
All this documented and proven to be true, and Alex's parents still go after this program to send their kid to. Obviously they could give a shit about Alex's well being and safety.
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 10:46:00 AM
This is not an endorsement of Spring Creek. I would not have chosen SL for any child. However, Alex is no longer there. He should be home working things out with his parents. Girlfriends come and go and don't have a history with the boy. His parents will always be his parents. If they are willing to have him at home and work thru the problems to correct the relationship. That is what is best long term. No parent is perfect and most are willing to admit it. It seems as if Alex's parents love him very much and were pushed to react in a stressed situation. Now, maybe the pressure has released some and they can work together towards a healthy relationship.
It is also possible that the parents would prefer to have Alex somewhere else while they work things out because he being back in the house may start the build up of pressure again, which is not healthy for Alex or his family. My prayer is that all involved adults are working together and are on the same page, not putting Alex in a tug of war. He needs support and he needs his parents.
From watching friends go thru this, it took less than a year for the child to prove to other concerned adults that the parents were right about their child. Some of the interfering adults have gone back and apologized to the family for stepping in and causing harm to the family by interfering. Others, just hide and are obviously embarassed by their actions.
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 11:02:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 11:32:00 AM
When people are desparate, they will do desparate things, especially for those they love. If you were desparate and at the time all you had to go on was the website and an education consultant, there is no telling what you would do. The problem is with wwasp playing on parents' fears and with the industry, not necessarily the scared, desparate parents looking for help. Hindsight is always best. But when you are awake all night searching websites for help and every search takes you to a WWASP school and then the ed cons call and start to calm your fears and then send you to parents and chat rooms that confirm what the ed cons and wwasp parents tell you, you want to believe. You want help for your desparate situation.
These people are like drug dealers looking for confused hurt teenagers that will do anything to feel better. Don't blame parents, blame the system and continue to work to fix it. There will always be rebellious teenagers and desparate parents. These people do need help. Real help needs to be provided. This sight does SOME good for that. It stops doing good when parents that already feel attacked get attacked even more.
As seen too many times, parents don't find this site until they have already made an agonizing decision. Don't shut down parents, shut down abusive TB schools.
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 11:35:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 11:46:00 AM
Quote
Hindsight is always best. But when you are awake all night searching websites for help and every search takes you to a WWASP school and then the ed cons call and start to calm your fears and then send you to parents and chat rooms that confirm what the ed cons and wwasp parents tell you, you want to believe. You want help for your desparate situation.
What percentage of program parents admit they were wrong? Even if their kid was abused at the program?
Not many, I've only spoken to a handful. You can't claim you were tricked into the program and then preach it as the word of god. It just doesn't equate.
Post by: Troll Control on March 22, 2006, 12:09:00 PM
Quote
Come on....no parent chooses a TBS because they want to! That is silly! They are too expensive and it is certainly not socially acceptable!
This is totally untrue. I was an intake counselor at a TBS and I have personally heard several parents say "I'm going to keep him/her here until s/he's 18 and then s/he's on his/her own." Or, "I just want him/her gone. I can't live my life like this." Some parents had THREE KIDS in the program at once.
So, I can tell you from first hand experiencer that there is a significant percentage of program parents who just want their kid "gone." Usually in these cases the kids are pretty good kids, but were raised so badly that they came to have problems surrounding their parental relationships. In a sense, the parents created the problem and then got rid of the problem.
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 12:12:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 12:21:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 22, 2006, 12:22:00 PM
Most kids are not perfect little angels who always demonstrate sage-like wisdom and forethought. That's why we don't let them vote, hold public office or own real estate. But they do grow up. Girlfriends and boyfriends don't always go away. Sometimes they become wives, husbands or lifelong friends.
When a kid starts to really grow up, nobody knows enough about them to take drastic steps like locking them down in a thought reform program. Not even the kid knows because they're in the process of re-inventing themselves as an adult. We all did it. When I was 17 and taking my leave of childhood, I can tell you it would have been a whole lot easier if I could have gotten support and practical advice from my parents instead of having to stick by my state appointed body guards for fear of their having me kidnapped again.
Can you see how that makes some sense?
You want to talk about a year from now? Ok, go on over to the Struggling Turkeys site and look over all of their advice about "detachment" and exit plans. Notice how those threads do not go on for weeks and months. Lon cuts them short when they get a little too "unsuportive" and demonstrate an unwillingness to "trust the process" on the part of the parent who, after spending all the money and having their kid held incommunicado for months may want to know what it all was for and how many others get the same result.
Hint! That's why there are so few regular users on Lon's site; he bans them when they quit towing the party line.
At the end of the day, most families who do complete the program wind up back in the very same situation with the added complication of the parents having taken a firm position against their kid unless they continue to swollow the noxious Program version of reality with a big smile.
The Program tears familys apart. This is not usually the parents' intention (except for those few freaks who make a career of it long past the time the grown kids lose their number and move to the other side of the continent) But it's almost always the result.
So what's this detachment and exit plan stuff they're so fond of recomending after they've got all your money? Well, it boils down to doing just what Program vets and this kid's friends have been advising all along; quit trying to strong arm the kid into adopting your conclusions about life, the universe and everything. Quit being so damned scared. Have a little real, honest to goodness faith in the kid to sort things out WITH the freely given help and support of honest to God family and his chosen friends. Quit listening to these creepy sanctimonious strangers who want to get paid to medal in your lives.
Trust me, they won't be there for you if things go badly. They won't even acknowledge that you ever were a part of their Utopia, unless you're good for their PR. All their self rightious diatribes about the evils of "non working" friends and lifestyle choices is nothing but projection.
A celibate clergy is an especially good idea because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism.
--Carl Sagan, American astronomer and author
Post by: Antigen on March 22, 2006, 12:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-22 09:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
The families I know that have had to send kids somewhere only did so out of desparation and with the advice of a therapist.
Well desperation never made a good bargain and therapists can often be wrong.
What are the names of the therapists who are recomending SCL? I think their licensing boards ought to be informed.
That's all marijuana is, after all. It's just a plant, a common and easily grown one at that. In many cultures, its consumption was lawful for millennia. And in all that time, the bond between thugs, mayhem, murder and marijuana that we see today did not exist.
Dan Gardner, CanWest News Service
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 12:54:00 PM
With this family, the child was bent on a life on the streets. That is what he knew and was most comfortable with. (These were not his first set of parents) Legally, parents cannot allow that. Where we are from, if your minor child says he is going to run and you do nothing to prevent it, the parent can be charged with abandonment. Years of counseling, several episodes of running, looking into alternatives and compromises did nothing. I know you would like to blame the parents, but there are some extenuating circumstances that were out of the parents control. Without giving details, I just want to say that not all parents seek a TBS just to throw away a child or torture them. Some are truly seeking help for their child and their family. Again, my plea is that you continue to expose the programs that are evil for what they are, and not assume that the parents are always the evil ones.
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 05:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-22 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The family has sent the family counseling program the articles and information regarding SCL and wwasp in general. This group responded with big thank yous and said they no longer include them with their list of alternative living arrangements. They truly work to keep families together.
With this family, the child was bent on a life on the streets. That is what he knew and was most comfortable with. (These were not his first set of parents) Legally, parents cannot allow that. Where we are from, if your minor child says he is going to run and you do nothing to prevent it, the parent can be charged with abandonment. Years of counseling, several episodes of running, looking into alternatives and compromises did nothing. I know you would like to blame the parents, but there are some extenuating circumstances that were out of the parents control. Without giving details, I just want to say that not all parents seek a TBS just to throw away a child or torture them. Some are truly seeking help for their child and their family. Again, my plea is that you continue to expose the programs that are evil for what they are, and not assume that the parents are always the evil ones."
The parents do have another choice. They can seek the option of helping the kid get emancipated status. Usually, the biggest thing the courts are concerned about is whether the parents are trying to get out of their obligation to support their minor child.
Since the child usually doesn't have to actually be entirely supporting himself with a job, if I had an adopted child who actively wanted back out, where I was otherwise going to spend $60k-$80k to send the kid to a program, instead I would stick a sum of money in a trust fund for the kid with people other than me and hubby as the trustees, with the trust set up to pay certain of the kid's bills (like rent, utils and limited phone minutes) directly, and pay the kid a small allowance from the trust. Then the kid only has limited stuff to support himself from out of a job.
The emancipation rules usually only say that the child doesn't need ongoing support from the parents, not whether they ever needed it. The trust satisfies the court that the parents are not just trying to get out of support obligations for the kid.
The parents can allow a kid to live independently. That's not against the law. By emancipation, the parents can be relieved of liability for any of the kid's future torts, or crimes. If the emancipated kid keeps drugs in the apartment the trust pays for, neither the trustees nor the parents are liable.
Parents *do* have another option than RTCs.
Frequently when people say "on the streets" they don't mean homeless, they mean living in a poor, urban neighborhood and associating with poor, urban people.
Incipient poverty isn't a good reason to lock someone up in what amounts to a private prison.
Julie
Post by: Troll Control on March 22, 2006, 05:28:00 PM
Quote
Without giving details, I just want to say that not all parents seek a TBS just to throw away a child or torture them. Some are truly seeking help for their child and their family.
This is true I would say in the vast, vast majority of cases. I don't think that anyone can dispute that.
It's a shame that the purveyors of these type of BM programs use such deceptive and unethical methods to rope in fresh marks. They're unscrupulous.
The other side of coin is that the parents aren't doing their research and proper consultations with reputable disinterested parties before they send their kids to these institutions. Parents are not doing their due diligence.
The combination of these two factors combined with the solemn fact children in our society have no rights and no voice has led to shattered lives - and even deaths - for far too many at the hands of unethical, untrained, uneducated and greedy profiteers looking only for the monitary enrichment of the business.
Post by: Antigen on March 22, 2006, 06:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-22 09:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
The family has sent the family counseling program the articles and information regarding SCL and wwasp in general. This group responded with big thank yous and said they no longer include them with their list of alternative living arrangements. They truly work to keep families together.
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it. An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I'm agnostic.
--Carl Sagan, American astronomer and author
Post by: Antigen on March 22, 2006, 06:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-22 14:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
Frequently when people say "on the streets" they don't mean homeless, they mean living in a poor, urban neighborhood and associating with poor, urban people.
Incipient poverty isn't a good reason to lock someone up in what amounts to a private prison.
Julie"
I quite agree. In fact, probably half or more of the source of trouble in our family had to do w/ my parents' differening backgrounds and priorities. Mom was raised by a maid (or, rather, a succession of them) while my dad had a dirt floor to come home to. We all probably had just a tad too much fun fuckin' with her by going out of our way to emulate Dad. But then, she had a good lot of it coming to her, imho.
I don't think she ever understood how unkind and unhelpful it is to insult and degrade a kid's other parent right in front of them. Dad did. I will never know what he thought of that woman. He refused to discuss her in anything but respectful tones, or even allow anyone else to in his presence. So Dad never said much about her at all. There just wasn't much to say. Mom finally quit with the "You're just like your father!" as an insult when I finally came up with a fitting retort; "Why Mom, thank you! That's the nicest thing you've said to me ... in years!"
Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.
--Julius Caesar
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 07:57:00 PM
I think this is the point Anonymous is trying to get across.
I understand there are family's that send there kids away because they have had enough that is horrible!!!!!
Good luck on having them closed
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 24, 2006, 12:50:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 24, 2006, 08:18:00 AM
Who knows he may never be.
Post by: Anonymous on March 24, 2006, 08:48:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 24, 2006, 10:30:00 AM
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 24, 2006, 12:06:00 PM
He is doing good from what I see and he
tells me. He told me he isn't ready to
read everything or post yet. Maybe someday.
Post by: Anonymous on March 24, 2006, 12:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-24 09:06:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Yes he is living with Leslie and Ashley.
He is doing good from what I see and he
tells me. He told me he isn't ready to
read everything or post yet. Maybe someday."
Thats good to hear. I dont see a reason to push him into posting here either. This will be archived and whenever he feels like it, if ever, he can do so. I didn't start to think about my stay for years, I wanted to leave it behind me. Maybe he'll want to do the same.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 24, 2006, 01:12:00 PM
Eventually, he will talk about it. It's just a matter of when the time is right for Alex. I can, and will totally respect that.
I will ask every so often how he is doing though, and hopefully one day he can maybe tell me/us himself.
Post by: Anonymous on March 24, 2006, 02:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-24 10:12:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I understand as well. It is a very traumatic thing for a kid to go through. Sometimes, you get out, and you just don't want to talk about it. Sometimes, you want to pretend it never happened.
Eventually, he will talk about it. It's just a matter of when the time is right for Alex. I can, and will totally respect that.
I will ask every so often how he is doing though, and hopefully one day he can maybe tell me/us himself.
"
When I was raped and otherwise abused, I literally could not talk about it for years. It was like the words were paralyzed down in my throat.
A friend who was hideously abused by a real-life wicked stepmother had taken years and years to be able to talk about it at all.
My brother in law doesn't talk much about combat in Iraq. He's with the 101st Air Assault, training Iraqis, so he's seen quite a lot of it, as the Iraqi troops are a big target of the terrorists. He's gotten a purple heart and had multiple IEDs blow up under trucks he's been in. Fortunately, only one of them got through the truck to actually wound him. He's already told my father in law that he won't want to talk about it much when he comes home.
Whether Alex can't talk about it yet, or is just so busy with his real life that he's not interested in logging on and talking to total strangers about his life, it's great to hear that he's back in his hometown and doing well.
Julie
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 24, 2006, 02:55:00 PM
He said he hasn't read the site yet.
He will when he is ready and has 2
or 3 days.
I think he hasn't because he has been
told about all the crap in the beginning.
I don't think he wants to deal with that
yet. I could be wrong. I haven't asked
why he hasn't I am just assuming.
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 24, 2006, 08:52:00 PM
Post by: Nihilanthic on March 24, 2006, 09:59:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-24 17:52:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"He knows when he reads all of this he will have to deal with many of the lies told by the family he is living with now. Especially the bridge lie. That was a big one. Also, the many things said about his family who he does still love. He does know this. But you are right CCM girl he wants to get started with his life and put this behind him. "
(http://http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/N/T/fleischer_spins_away.jpg)
Post by: Antigen on March 24, 2006, 10:05:00 PM
Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
Thomas Jefferson, 1787
Post by: Anonymous on March 24, 2006, 10:26:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-24 17:52:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"He knows when he reads all of this he will have to deal with many of the lies told by the family he is living with now. Especially the bridge lie. That was a big one. Also, the many things said about his family who he does still love. He does know this. But you are right CCM girl he wants to get started with his life and put this behind him. "
Over a long time, I've noticed that "truth" about engineering or murder is definite, but "truth" about interpersonal issues often has a lot to do with perspective and who you ask.
There is an absolute truth about the actual words and actual events, and then there are all the nuances of the *way* people say and do what they say and do.
A lot of the time, when two people tell you about some disagreement, the person who tells you exactly what was said and done, word and action perfect, is being actively misleading about *how* it was done, in a situation where how it was done radically changes the context of the whole situation.
Notice I said *actively* misleading---active doesn't mean intentional. A lot of the most misleading people in the world just live in denial or are very good at lying to themselves.
Alex's experiences have diverged so much from the experiences of anyone else who knew him before that I don't think anyone can truly predict how he's going to feel about anything or anyone involved.
Julie
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on March 24, 2006, 11:10:00 PM
can assume. I didn't try to say I knew
exactly why. Like I said I haven't asked
him.
[ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-03-24 21:04 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 24, 2006, 11:39:00 PM
Quote
At this point in time I don't really
care what you people think. You mean nothing
to me.
:roll: :lol:
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 25, 2006, 09:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-24 19:05:00, Eudora wrote:No I wouldn't be surprised. As stated earlier in this thread, when I found out what was coming from my home computer I put a stop to it and got myself a screenname so there would be no mistake who was saying what.
"Oh, for god's sake, Shelly! Yes, this was getting to be a very big, very ugly brawl there for awhile. I hope that, one day, all parties will OK my tying their anon posts to usernames. You'd be damned surprised and enlightened yourself to find out who was actually throwing guns into that fight, I'm sure.Were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers, or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter.
Thomas Jefferson, 1787
"
Post by: Antigen on March 25, 2006, 10:30:00 AM
I do have one serious question that maybe you could answer. How did WWASP get their hooks into this family? Did they go looking on the net? Or did one of the evangelical toughlove devout recruit them personally? Do you know?
An Animated Cartoon Theology:
1. People are animals.
2. The body is mortal and subject to incredible pain.
3. Life is antagonistic to the living.
4. The flesh can be sawed, crushed, frozen, stretched, burned, bombed, and plucked for music.
5. The dumb are abused by the smart and the smart destroyed by their own cunning.
6. The small are tortured by the large and the large destroyed by their own momentum.
7. We are able to walk on air, but only as long as our illusion supports us.
-- E. L. Doctorow "The Book of Daniel"
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 25, 2006, 01:13:00 PM
Post by: Aunt Shelly on March 25, 2006, 05:25:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 26, 2006, 01:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-25 10:13:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"Sorry I misunderstood. Are you saying the lies are coming from the schools?
Yeah. Some of them. A lot of people affiliated with WWASP and other industry members read these forums. And a fair many of the edcons and others post pretty frequently too.
This particular thread was, for obvious reasons, of great interest to them for awhile. And so one or more of these folks dropped in and did their usual song and dance, talking about Alex asif they knew all about him. I'd have to dig those out, but it's just the sort of comment that's apt to set off an angry response and a cascade effect ensues. So you got the brunt of a lot of that from ppl who may have assumed you said it or one of your family, not some total stranger who's probably never laid eyes on any of you.
This is one definition of the term 'trolling'. Just don't anybody fall for it.
The most fundamental fact about the ideas of the political left is that they do not work. Therefore we should not be surprised to find the left concentrated in institutions where ideas do not have to work in order to survive.
--Thomas Sowell
Post by: Antigen on March 26, 2006, 01:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-25 14:25:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"In addendum to my earlier post, there are also people that work there that genuinely want to help the kids sent there. Not everyone there is in it for the money. The highups are the ones getting rich. Also, from what Alex said about 80% of the kids there are from California."
Well, yeah. And even the higher ups who are getting incredibly wealthy probably believe that they're doing the right thing. That's what makes them so dangerous and so convincing. This is how witch hunts and inquisitions gain and keep momentum.
At the end of the day, though, the very basic methods they use are harmful and ineffective. No amount of good intentions will ever make that any better. The only thing I know of to remedy this is education and dialog on the issue. Whenever that happens, it makes the true believers very uncomfortable and, well, they act like this.
If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
Post by: Anonymous on March 26, 2006, 08:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-25 14:25:00, Aunt Shelly wrote:
"In addendum to my earlier post, there are also people that work there that genuinely want to help the kids sent there. Not everyone there is in it for the money. The highups are the ones getting rich. Also, from what Alex said about 80% of the kids there are from California."
Trust me when I say that I, for one, wasn't working there for the money. If you knew what they paid you'd know that was a definite...lol.
Post by: Antigen on March 26, 2006, 10:32:00 PM
What matters is what you do with it from here.
Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 28, 2006, 01:43:00 PM
Trust me when I say that I, for one, wasn't working there for the money. If you knew what they paid you'd know that was a definite...lol."
[/quote]
Maybe you weren't there for the money. But in the middle of goddamned nowhere what else are your options........chopping down trees? So, whatever....it was probably an easier alternative for you. What did you think it would pay twice as much because the head honchos are raking it in? NOT!!!!
Post by: Anonymous on March 28, 2006, 07:32:00 PM
Quote
QuoteOn 2006-03-28 10:43:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
Trust me when I say that I, for one, wasn't working there for the money. If you knew what they paid you'd know that was a definite...lol."
Maybe you weren't there for the money. But in the middle of goddamned nowhere what else are your options........chopping down trees? So, whatever....it was probably an easier alternative for you. What did you think it would pay twice as much because the head honchos are raking it in? NOT!!!!"
When I went to work out there I went with the intentions of maybe doing some good, but after over a year I couldn't stand being there anymore. It had nothing to do with money. I didn't need to work, but I wanted to. I had plenty of other options, so maybe you should just cut the attitude. I wasn't standing up for the program at all I was just pointing out that it's funny to say someone was there for the money when they obviously don't pay well. To some this may be really good money, but where I come from it's not.
I left because I didn't agree with a lot that was going on and after I started reading a lot more about WWASP I knew it wasn't the place I wanted to work. Yeah a lot of people in this town work there because it's the only "semi-decent" paying job around...I just didn't happen to be one of them. It wasn't an easy alternative for me. I had to be away from my son for shifts of 48 and 72 hours straight. That was another reason I left, so please don't pretend to know anything about my life just because I made the mistake of working for a WWASP organization.
Let me guess, you've never made the mistake of taking a job then finding out it was the wrong move??? Yeah, right.[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-28 17:59 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 28, 2006, 07:41:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 28, 2006, 08:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 16:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If it took you a year to figure out that WWASPs methods are abusive, you really must be a Montana inbred. One glance at the Hobbit pictures and the rest of the world feels their stomach churn with disgust at the thought of what children inside must have felt. No wonder CCM girl is calling you out. You saw abuses and kept that job for an entire year until the long shifts finally wore on you. Shame on you."
Of course that's the whole point, isn't it? The "hobbit" pictures create such a great opportunity for dramatics, but the reality is that there isn't anything abusive going on. The photos posted are probably around seven or eight years old, and I doubt that anyone who works at SCL would even recognize them. (BTW, why does anyone call it that? Aren't hobbit homes warm and inviting?)
SCL may use an approach you don't agree with, but abuse is an entirely different thing, and this person doesn't claim that's what s/he saw. You've never been there, and neither has CCM girl, but you're both posing as authorities on the whole thing. Shame on YOU.
Post by: Anonymous on March 28, 2006, 08:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 16:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If it took you a year to figure out that WWASPs methods are abusive, you really must be a Montana inbred. One glance at the Hobbit pictures and the rest of the world feels their stomach churn with disgust at the thought of what children inside must have felt. No wonder CCM girl is calling you out. You saw abuses and kept that job for an entire year until the long shifts finally wore on you. Shame on you."
God, you people are unbelievable! I never said I was proWWASP or anything like that, in fact, I feel just the opposite. I was just making a comment about the poor wages there and then I get comments like I must be a "Montana inbred"? Come on, that was totally uncalled for.
I stayed there because I thought maybe if there were enough people that felt like me( and there are people working there that do), maybe we could do something to help instead of just posting our dislike of the system on here. I tried to get changes made by keeping records and hounding the Administration to make changes. At least I was out there trying to make a difference instead of just talking about it and coming on here and making fun of people.
I loved the kids that were there. I loved being there and if I left then who knows what type of person would take my place. Would you rather I had quit and just sat at my computer making "I hate WWASP" posts? It didn't take me a year to see that it was abusive. I stayed longer to try to do something positive.
Unfortunately, or maybe it's fortunately, I never saw anyone being physically abused. That doesn't mean it did or didn't happen, it only means "I" never saw it. I even talked to some of the kids I worked closely with and none of them ever said anything about being abused. They complained about the food and such, but then what teenager doesn't complain about food? In case you haven't heard the Hobbitt no longer exists. Get your facts straight before you go mouthing off. I have been working with CPS and unfortunately I can't go into what was reported because, as you know, they do troll this site and I don't want to cause trouble for other people that are still there and still working with CPS.
There is no "shame" in what I did. I started working out there with the desire to help these kids. I had no idea what was actually going on until I had been there a while and started asking a lot of questions. I had never heard of this website or WWASP until I went to work out there. I just thought it was a school for troubled kids and that's the area I wanted to work in. After hooking up with some other people out there that told me about this site I decided to check it out, and I'm glad I did. The only thing I do regret is wasting time to explain myself to someone that doesn't know anything about me or my reasons for what I did.
Let me ask you when the last time you actually did something to put a stop to these programs besides just mouthing off about nothing?
Post by: Anonymous on March 28, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 17:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-28 16:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If it took you a year to figure out that WWASPs methods are abusive, you really must be a Montana inbred. One glance at the Hobbit pictures and the rest of the world feels their stomach churn with disgust at the thought of what children inside must have felt. No wonder CCM girl is calling you out. You saw abuses and kept that job for an entire year until the long shifts finally wore on you. Shame on you."
Of course that's the whole point, isn't it? The "hobbit" pictures create such a great opportunity for dramatics, but the reality is that there isn't anything abusive going on. The photos posted are probably around seven or eight years old, and I doubt that anyone who works at SCL would even recognize them. (BTW, why does anyone call it that? Aren't hobbit homes warm and inviting?)
SCL may use an approach you don't agree with, but abuse is an entirely different thing, and this person doesn't claim that's what s/he saw. You've never been there, and neither has CCM girl, but you're both posing as authorities on the whole thing. Shame on YOU."
Agreed! Until you've even gone there and checked it out for yourself, keep your mouth shut about things you don't know are true or not. All you have to go by is hearsay
Post by: Antigen on March 28, 2006, 08:37:00 PM
Quote
Some years ago, from his remote jungle hideout, Jim Jones wrote:
Agreed! Until you've even gone there and checked it out for yourself, keep your mouth shut about things you don't know are true or not. All you have to go by is hearsay"
Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission
Post by: Anonymous on March 28, 2006, 09:35:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 17:37:00, Eudora wrote:
"Quote
Some years ago, from his remote jungle hideout, Jim Jones wrote:
Agreed! Until you've even gone there and checked it out for yourself, keep your mouth shut about things you don't know are true or not. All you have to go by is hearsay"Government operates best when it allows all messengers to offer their views, allowing the American people to decide which take root and which wither away.
--Harold Furchtgott-Roth, member of the Federal Communications Commission
I'm done with trying. All you do on here is twist things to suit yourselves. No one can have an opinion different from yours or then they are wrong. I was just pointing out that you shouldn't take things just on what you hear, but maybe take the time to actually check it out yourself. I had always thought that even in a court of law, hearsay isn't allowed...maybe I'm wrong. The funny thing is that I agree with you in regards to stopping WWASP programs, but I guess it's more fun to mock people for using the wrong words...must make you feel important.[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-28 18:41 ]
Post by: Antigen on March 28, 2006, 09:45:00 PM
How, exactly, do you suppose one would go about getting firsthand experience w/ a program that employs total isolation in the way WWASP programs do?
And what did I twist? I only commented that, like it or not, that sure does sound like what every cult leader down through history has ever said.
There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the enemy.
--George Washington
Post by: 69 on March 28, 2006, 10:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 17:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-28 17:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-28 16:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If it took you a year to figure out that WWASPs methods are abusive, you really must be a Montana inbred. One glance at the Hobbit pictures and the rest of the world feels their stomach churn with disgust at the thought of what children inside must have felt. No wonder CCM girl is calling you out. You saw abuses and kept that job for an entire year until the long shifts finally wore on you. Shame on you."
Of course that's the whole point, isn't it? The "hobbit" pictures create such a great opportunity for dramatics, but the reality is that there isn't anything abusive going on. The photos posted are probably around seven or eight years old, and I doubt that anyone who works at SCL would even recognize them. (BTW, why does anyone call it that? Aren't hobbit homes warm and inviting?)
SCL may use an approach you don't agree with, but abuse is an entirely different thing, and this person doesn't claim that's what s/he saw. You've never been there, and neither has CCM girl, but you're both posing as authorities on the whole thing. Shame on YOU."
Agreed! Until you've even gone there and checked it out for yourself, keep your mouth shut about things you don't know are true or not. All you have to go by is hearsay"
I spent close to a month in the hobbit, and know it well. I'd say I have thoroughly 'checked out' the hobbit. Have you spent a week straight locked up like an animal? It's not fun. Yes, abuse occured at SCL while I was there, I was on the recieving end on many occasions.
The burden of proof is on you Spring Creek Lodge. You have abused enough of us that it isn't just 'hearsay' anymore. Nobody has pity for the employees of SCL, good intentions or not. What we care about is innocent children being locked away by crazy parents with money who think they are doing a good thing too. Everyone thinks they are doing such a great deed, but you are not, do not fool yourselves.
This is from an earlier post of mine, because I've had this conversation too many times before on this forum and don't feel like typing it all again. Everytime the pro-wwaspies get in a bind, they say 'you dont know nothing you haven't been there', etc. I spent almost a month locked up in the shitty isolation cell. SCL destroys children, all while thinking they are doing good. It's fucking pathetic, sadistic and needs to be stopped.
Quote
If a parent were to treat their child the way WWASP staff do, they would be imprisoned. Yet, it occurs continuously at WWASP and similar programs. What gives them the right to hold a child in isolation, submission and humiliation with absolutely no oversight?
There are strict rules and guidelines in our country's correctional system when an inmate is being placed in isolation. It is a relatively rare, and heavily documented event, and the inmate has rights and access to an advocate. Why not at SCL? SCL is at the same level as the recently reported CIA secret prisons. Out of sight, out of mind.
The hobbit was almost always occupied while I was there. Kids were placed in the hobbit for things as inconsequencial as 'choosing out' of a seminar. (if you don't know what that means, click on the piano finders link below and read about seminars) They throw kids in the beginning of Discovery when they get kicked out, and let them sit 'till the end- three days. Do you think not participating in a psycho cry fest- as many newspapers have referred to it- is reason to be kept in isolation with limited meals in conditions so utterly deplorable? I sure don't.
Do they limit your food for punishment? Yes.
For breakfast we received one peeled banana, and a plain bagel served with a bathroom toiletry cup full of water. For dinner - yes we only got two meals - was a tortilla filled with black beans, and lettuce on the side. No utensils. That's it.
Why would they limit food like this... for treatment purposes? No, I say to punish. So yes, I call this food deprivation. For what other purpose would it serve to limit portions like this and give such plain food with very little/no nutritional value? Prisoners eat better than the kids in the hobbit. Murderers on death row have more rights than the kids in the hobbit.
So yes, you are correct, they don't refuse you food completely, instead they give you the absolute bottom of the barrel definition of what a meal actually is. Just enough to keep from getting arrested.
Were we allowed to shower? No.
We were allowed a thin sleeping bag from the time 9pm-5am. We slept on hardwood in the bag with no pillow. It was cold and extremely uncomfortable.
The staff would sleep outside the doors of the individual cells in the staff part of the hobbit. They would place two or three mattresses on top of each other, and block both doors to the cells, and sleep on that. The staff would obviously feel if either cell door was opening, as they opened outwards. They would bring a ton of blankets and pillows, quite a comfortable bed they had.
We were only allowed to wear one layer of clothes. They say to protect from anyone trying to run, but with a staff posted outside your closed door, this was close to impossible not to mention we had no shoes. It's obvious this was also for punishment (it gets frigidly cold).
The bathroom was a port-a-potty located about 50 yards down in the direction of the 'hungry horse', the cafeteria, a common place for others to be. They had full view of the portapotty. So when you had to go to the bathroom, you had to ask the staff, because they have to escort you down. The staff were always in a bad mood, their job absolutely sucked! They were in the hobbit all day too, and commonly they would pull double shifts because they received a lot of extra pay up at the hobbit. One staff would tell me how much he'd make if he spent two days straight working the hobbit, and it was several hundred dollars. It's pretty stressful after that long, and who do you think they take that out on?
Back to the portapotty though. So, once you managed to convince the staff to let you go to the bathroom, they'd let you out of your room, or cell or whatever you want to call it, to put on your shoelace-less shoes out in the staff area of the hobbit. Then they would parade you down to the portapotty, and of course there would be families walking by, perfect timing for humiliation. Staff sure would get a laugh at the steam coming from the portapotty in the cold winter months. I heard from another student one kid locked himself and wouldn't let himself out. They pushed it over and one can only imagine that mess. Overall, the best situation was to hold it as long as possible. It was freezing, humiliating and gross to go to the bathroom. Again, all part of the punishment.
It's disgusting. Three days straight in sweats a t-shirt and socks, and you can't change any of those items for the entire time. We spent the entire day sitting on the dirty linoleum flooring, which was stained with piss and reeked like ... you get the picture.
There were kids who spent weeks, and months up there. Some kids just can't handle being institutionalized and went crazy. Or as you might put it, 'escalating', except these kids never stopped until they lost it. Why they weren't sent to a psych hospital I will never know. These were the kids who would deficate in the hobbit and smear it on the wall. These were the kids who would carve up their arm like a bloody halloween movie and spread the words 'FREEDOM' across the wall with their own blood.
How is this for reality. I saw these things with my own eyes. I hope this is 'relative and applicable' enough for you to take me seriously.
So, anon wwasp supporter who thinks 'the hobbit' sounds homely :roll: ... perhaps you should take your own advice and not comment on something you nothing about. Or did you spend time locked up in special needs?
How did you put it?
Quote
Agreed! Until you've even gone there and checked it out for yourself, keep your mouth shut about things you don't know are true or not.
Ah, that's the stuff.
The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart.
Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Post by: 69 on March 28, 2006, 10:32:00 PM
On that note, here's something I left out of the blog, among countless other anecdotes.
While I was in one cell of the hobbit, and another kid in the other, we were informed there was a tour coming through, and it was insinuated to us if we did anything other than smile and praise SCL, we would regret it. They gave us some paper towels to clean the rooms up, and a book (the bible ). I sat down on the 'bed' (lower wooden bunk you see in the hobbit picture) and pretended I was politely reading my book. Even I, someone who passively resisted the program, didn't want to piss off the director himself - who knows what would of happened. The other kid obviously concurred with my line of reasoning, because I didn't hear a peep out of him, and normally he never shut up.
Sure enough, the parents roll through with their entourage of escorts. Not only the facility director, and another staff - but also a couple high level kids - you know, the ones who are just about to get out and will sing praise to the program no matter what to avoid being dropped.
I watched out my window as they brought the parents from the office towards the hobbit. The parents are typical looking, what you would expect. They were white, middle age, graying hair on the man - light dusty blond shoulder length hair on the woman. He was wearing slacks and a button up shirt. She was dressed in typical middle-class woman attire, and must of been ten years or more younger than the man. The reason I remember this is because I thought it was so inappropriate for the environment we were in- there was several feet of snow and very cold- yet it looked like these people just got off a flight from Los Angeles. They looked, well, very out of place. Not just their clothes though. When all you see everyday is the faces of caged teenagers, and authoritative staff for months on end, simple things such as a normal looking middle class white couple stand out. Their faces didn't belong, they were too innocent.
The parents peered through the small barred window of the door, as if they were looking at a caged animal. I looked back at them briefly, enough time to make eye contact, but it was too odd, I just went back to staring at my book uncomfortably. The look on their faces was of curious approval. The 'oh that's not so bad' kind of look on their face. The eyebrows up, slow tempo nod of the head, as if they were fit to judge me needing to be in there. I felt truly pathetic at the moment. I know how the animals at the zoo must feel.
They were in and out, very briefly. Nobody asked us anything, or talked to us, completing our dehumanization process. As they approached, came in and left the director kept up his sales pitch, because that's all it was. He had to keep talking- like an infomercial salesman - desperately attempting to alleviate the parents obvious negative intuition about leaving their son. Well -heck, they took the extraordinary step to arrange a tour. Most parents don't even do that. Some hire a kidnapper to do the job for them.
They certainly paid for a good show. SCL is a nice and tidy facility at first glance. Yes, we spent a LOT of time cleaning. We learned how to pretend to be GREAT kids too. The parents seemed convinced with this superficial view of the program. It's not what you can see that is so disturbing about this program. The problem lies where you cannot peer.
So, they were conned. Not only did SCL fool them, they fooled themselves. As many before them, and many after them will be. And you know what; they are just the type of people who get conned everyday. They belong to the class of people who are the targets of con-artists, desperate, in search of quick answers to complicated problems and willing to listen to anybody who will offer to help. Parents, beware!
Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
Post by: 69 on March 28, 2006, 10:40:00 PM
Quote
The "hobbit" pictures create such a great opportunity for dramatics, but the reality is that there isn't anything abusive going on.
BULLSHIT! That is a lie.
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
For some of us, this was our entire reality. 24/7 For anywhere from 3 days to weeks on end. I spent 28 days there total. Think about spending that much time in that tiny cell. You cannot even begin to imagine what kind of torturous hell it is. I know what those carvings feel like under my fingertips as I ran my hand over them. I know the kids who made many of those markings. I know what it looks like staring from the other end of the room. I know exactly what you see when you peer out the window. I know what that room tastes like, smells like and everything in between. I know what it looks like when blood smears that wall.
This picture is very real to a lot of us. For you to say nothing abusive happened is an outright lie. A complete and utter misrepresntation of truth. I WAS ABUSED IN THE HOBBIT. SO WERE A LOT OF OTHER KIDS. I SAW IT WITH MY OWN EYES.
Patient memoirs are a kind of protest literature like slave narratives or witness testimonies.
G.A.Hornstein
Post by: 001010 on March 28, 2006, 10:40:00 PM
_________________
Teen Advocate
est (Landmark/Discovery) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
Post by: 001010 on March 28, 2006, 10:48:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 19:40:00, Exit Plan wrote:
(http://http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/SpringCreekDropout/hobbit_with_kid.jpg)
Yes, that looks like a prison cell to me. In Straight we had "Time-out rooms" which was our version of a "Hobbit." There were carvings and blood on those walls too. No matter how many years pass, abuse is abuse, false imprisonment is just that, and solitary confinement for no reason and against one?s free will is torture.
_________________
Teen Advocate
est (Landmark/Discovery) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
Post by: 69 on March 28, 2006, 10:50:00 PM
The abuse didn't occur in the middle of the facility during a parents tour. It happened up in the hobbit or worksheets when a staff pulling a double shift to get extra money to go elk hunting gets cranky after spending 4 days up in the hobbit babysitting kids who need professional attention. It happened late at night when the families arranged fights and the nerdy kid got his ass beat. It occured when the 12 year old wouldn't stand up for himself and acted, well, like a kid. It happened in worksheets when the 20 year old program graduate worker got tired of sitting in a cabin all day listening to books on tape.
Yes, abuse happens. It might not be policy, it might not be the majority of staff committing it, but it does occur. The very strucutre of the unregulated program encourages it. Employing unskilled, cheap labor promotes it. Giving a staff complete and utter control over another human being promotes abuse. Believing you can 'beat the devil' out of a teen, guess what, promotes abuse.
I am still shaking, it's a disconcerting feeling to have someone tell you, you were not abused in the very place you were. The hobbit is the location of my nightmares, and many other kids I'm sure. Hopefully I'll stop shaking soon.
...to disarm the people (is) the best and most effective way to enslave them...
-- George Mason
Post by: 001010 on March 28, 2006, 11:00:00 PM
You have friends. Unfortunately, we all have enemies too.
May peace be with you as you read these words, and find comfort in knowing that you are not alone.
_________________
Teen Advocate
est (Landmark/Discovery) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 12:36:00 AM
After I started working there I started hearing rumours about this website, so I checked it out. I was trying to find answers to questions I had about things that were going on in the program. Like I said before I never saw any PHYSICAL abuse, so I concentrated on the verbal and mental abuse I saw going on. I wanted to put an end to that, but I wasn't sure how to do it. I called CPS, but all they said was they were watching the situation closely.
The part that got to me was the person that said I should be ashamed for staying on there after I knew what was going on, but you tell me a better way to watch and get evidence of what was happening. Why are you all so quick to judge my intentions when you don't even know me. I don't know any of you, but when I read your stories about the things that happened to you while in these places I didn't immediately assume you were a liar. I listened and I learned. That's exactly what I did while working there. I talked to the girls in my care and tried to be there for them when they needed me. I did try to get something done by contacting the proper authorities and will continue to do so if they need me to.
"Everyone thinks they are doing such a great deed, but you are not, do not fool yourselves."
So do I just quit what I'm doing because you think I'm fooling myself? I don't think I'm doing a great deed, but I feel like I'm trying to do "something" instead of just sitting around making posts to this website about it.
I tried to get the girls in my family to give me any little bit of info about what was happening at SCL that they could, so I could take that to CPS with proof. I didn't want to go there and then have SCL tell them I was just a disgruntled employee. I wanted something to back up what I had to say. Fortunately for the girls in my care, none of them had experienced any abuse while there. Granted, they could have been witholding information for fear of some sort of retaliation against them. I do know for a fact that that shit does happen, not only to the kids but to the staff that dare to cross managment. That, I've seen with my own eyes.
To those that suffered while there, I am so very sorry for what you went through. I don't say that to calm my own "guilt" like someone had said I was doing. I say that with sincere sadness for what happened to you. That's the reason I'm still trying to help anyway possible to get these programs shut down, but I don't know what else to do besides what I've already tried. That's why I started coming here so that I could maybe find a way to do more, but I see that you will never believe in my sincerity no matter what I say. I guess I'm back to trying it on my own again.
Post by: 001010 on March 29, 2006, 12:43:00 AM
Register and PM me, and we'll talk more.
Post by: 69 on March 29, 2006, 01:04:00 AM
I was responding specifically to these quotes:
Quote
The "hobbit" pictures create such a great opportunity for dramatics, but the reality is that there isn't anything abusive going on.
Reality is abuse was commonplace in the hobbit.
Quote
Agreed! Until you've even gone there and checked it out for yourself, keep your mouth shut about things you don't know are true or not. All you have to go by is hearsay"
I am telling them, they are right to criticize the program. The most articulate posters here and the most informed about the WWASPS empire did not attend the program. How do you expect people to check it out for themselves? Is SCL giving guided tours now? This is a ridiculous statment. Nice touch with the program word, "agreed".
Quote
SCL may use an approach you don't agree with, but abuse is an entirely different thing, and this person doesn't claim that's what s/he saw. You've never been there, and neither has CCM girl, but you're both posing as authorities on the whole thing. Shame on YOU."
The approach WWASPS uses IS abuse and causes many children to be abused, while their parents pay good money for it. CCM girl was horribly abused at another WWASPS program... shame on her? Every criticism I've read of SCL is SPOT on, I'd say they make pretty good authorities on the topic. Shame?
I don't know who made these posts I quote above, it's hard to keep track of anons, and I don't try. Whoever made them is beyond hypocritical, claiming other posters don't have authority to post on subjects such as the hobbit, when they go on to LIE themselves about the treatment children receive while being locked up in isolation, no matter what the cage is called.
I am trying to clear up the lies I see for anyone who comes and reads this thread in the future. These lies were too over the top for me not to comment. SCL is abusive. WWASPS is abusive. This is fact.
If you are serious about making change, get together with one of the half dozen organizations formed. Take the bag off your head and put up an email. Write your story out for others to see, here and on other forums. Join forces with others at myspace or other forums. Talk to the people in your town about the truth about SCL. Write letters, come to protests, etc. These are all the things we are doing now. Work to inform parents. They still don't like to believe young people, call us program dropouts, etc.. maybe they would take ex-staff more seriously than 'us'.
Quote
but I don't know what else to do besides what I've already tried.
What did you try?
Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 10:28:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 21:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have tried and tried to tell you all that I am NOT a WWASP supporter. Yes, I worked there, but no I don't support, believe in or agree with what they do there. I was just being honest when I said that I hadn't seen the abuse with "my own eyes", so I couldn't testify to it happening. I never said I doubted that it happened. Why is it so hard for you people to believe that just because someone worked there they can't be trying to make things right? There are more people still working there that are trying to make a difference by staying there and doing the best to help these kids. If you go to the Spring Creekers site on Myspace and look at the topic titled "favorite staff" you'll see that even the kids have found a few staff that are working to make changes by being there for the kids.
After I started working there I started hearing rumours about this website, so I checked it out. I was trying to find answers to questions I had about things that were going on in the program. Like I said before I never saw any PHYSICAL abuse, so I concentrated on the verbal and mental abuse I saw going on. I wanted to put an end to that, but I wasn't sure how to do it. I called CPS, but all they said was they were watching the situation closely.
The part that got to me was the person that said I should be ashamed for staying on there after I knew what was going on, but you tell me a better way to watch and get evidence of what was happening. Why are you all so quick to judge my intentions when you don't even know me. I don't know any of you, but when I read your stories about the things that happened to you while in these places I didn't immediately assume you were a liar. I listened and I learned. That's exactly what I did while working there. I talked to the girls in my care and tried to be there for them when they needed me. I did try to get something done by contacting the proper authorities and will continue to do so if they need me to.
"Everyone thinks they are doing such a great deed, but you are not, do not fool yourselves."
So do I just quit what I'm doing because you think I'm fooling myself? I don't think I'm doing a great deed, but I feel like I'm trying to do "something" instead of just sitting around making posts to this website about it.
I tried to get the girls in my family to give me any little bit of info about what was happening at SCL that they could, so I could take that to CPS with proof. I didn't want to go there and then have SCL tell them I was just a disgruntled employee. I wanted something to back up what I had to say. Fortunately for the girls in my care, none of them had experienced any abuse while there. Granted, they could have been witholding information for fear of some sort of retaliation against them. I do know for a fact that that shit does happen, not only to the kids but to the staff that dare to cross managment. That, I've seen with my own eyes.
To those that suffered while there, I am so very sorry for what you went through. I don't say that to calm my own "guilt" like someone had said I was doing. I say that with sincere sadness for what happened to you. That's the reason I'm still trying to help anyway possible to get these programs shut down, but I don't know what else to do besides what I've already tried. That's why I started coming here so that I could maybe find a way to do more, but I see that you will never believe in my sincerity no matter what I say. I guess I'm back to trying it on my own again.
"
Are you kidding me? You expected abused kids to confide in *you*? One of (to them) the enemy?
Suuuuure you're "the nice guard." You're their old friend old buddy old pal who is going to blunder around in your hopeless naivete and get *their* asses beat into the ground and worse.
When *your* naivete gets somebody horribly, horribly retaliated against *it won't be you*. They know that. They know that full well.
That you have to ask them or prod them to see *if* abuse is going on tells them everything they need to know about you----that you're a naive effing fool who is going to blunder around and get *them* hurt worse and then let yourself off the hook for it (or, more likely, not even notice it happened) because of your "good intentions."
The only right thing to do is to quit being complicit in their abuse by stopping working there.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
When you work for bad people who do bad things, they *use* you---they use your well meaning, innocent naivete as a front, they make sure that people checking them out either encounter the really slick liars or you. People encountering you will feel that you're honest and well meaning and will, on the basis of meeting you, come to the completely false conclusion that it's a safe place to leave their kid.
People like you working for them is the only thing that makes it possible for them to stay in business. Without people like you in it, their whole con would fall apart.
You think people here just post on Fornits and that's all we do?
I'm an author. I pass the truth along to my readers---the truth that behavior modification facilities are terrible places to put children and are terribly unsafe---particularly for children with mental health problems like cutting, depression, bipolar disorder, or borderline personality disorder.
This week, I also passed the truth along to my pshrink, who has a local radio show. I gave him the name of the book _Help At Any Cost_ and went over the highlights of the red flags against these places.
A lot of people on Fornits are often surprised by my insistence that the blanket stopping of the kids' mail is horrible, dangerous, ominous, and highly unethical. For a licensed clinical psychologist or licensed psychiatrist, it's one of the biggest red flags I can say about these places, and one of the easiest to verify.
One of the first things they teach about ethics in the beginning abnormal psychology classes is that inpatient hospitals, facilities, whatever, must not and may not ethically stop patients' mail *except* when a patient's own personal doctor decides, for a very limited time, that getting or sending certain letters would hurt the patient. The usual examples are where the patient is threatening or stalking someone, or some of the patient's obnoxious relatives are sending horrible, abusive letters haranguing him, or are sending him martyred guilt trips and playing destructive head games on him.
When I tell any psychology or psychiatry professional that these places stop the patients' mail across the board, as a blanket policy, while the patient is on "level 1" or the equivalent---that is, until the patient begins to be compliant about saying what the facility wants them to say.... When I tell licensed professionals in the field about that, every red flag they have goes off immediately.
So my doctor immediately knew exactly what these places were like. Just from knowing about the mail, he could pretty much infer the rest. Messing with the patients' mail outside those very narrow and specific guidelines is such an ethics no-no.
How can I explain it so that you'll understand? Okay, put it like this. If you told me a lawyer got drunk at lunch with you and told you all the private business of one of his clients, that's all you'd have to tell me about that lawyer. If you told me a Catholic Priest went and told a husband his wife had said in confession that she was having an affair, that's all you'd have to tell me about that Priest. I'd know that lawyer and priest were shamelessly unethical SOBs.
Screwing around with an institutionalized person's mail, outside of those very narrow and specific guidelines, or stretching those guidelines a lot but saying you're still within them------that is so taboo that when you hear a place is doing it, that is absolutely all a decent professional needs to know about a place to know they're shamelessly unethical SOBs.
You're like the law clerk for the lawyer who drunkenly shares his clients' privileged information all over town. When people think ill of you for working for "that guy" if you could get another job, they're right. Whether you see it or not, they're right.
When you continue to work for someone once you know they have serious ethics problems, you taint yourself with their lack of ethics, because they're getting their money unethically, and you're feeding at that trough. Whether you get paid well or a pittance doesn't matter----your bills are getting paid off of that unethical behavior.
Exit Plan has told us many of the horrible things SCL does. Taking the tainted money they take in is how you pay your bills.
You can tell yourself it's a pittance, you can tell yourself your intentions are good, you can ask what else can you do and rationalize it all you want.
People who do horrible things *usually* manage to rationalize it away and come up with a bazillion empty "reasons" why what they're doing is only what they have to do, from the best of intentions.
So anyway, I told a psychiatrist with a mental health radio show about the "troubled teen" scam and how dangerous it is, and gave him the title of Help at Any Cost---which is a good starting place for someone first learning about this horror.
His listenership is exactly the target market for this industry. Middle-class, mostly white, middle aged parents who are worried about their teenagers.
He'll be able to do a far better job than I would at warning parents away from the scam, and drawing the distinction between the Behavior Modification Program scams versus the real, ethical, medical model, inpatient care for the few patients who are are imminently dangerous to themselves or others and are in dire need of a short term hospitalization to get stabilized.
Sending your child to a facility that routinely stops the mail for all of the incoming kids, for *any* length of time, is like sending your best friend to a divorce attorney who sleeps with his clients.
The scum you see floating on the top merely hints at the corruption underneath those waters.
When you work for viral scum, you get infected.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 10:52:00 AM
We get this line of "at least I'm doing something" from staff at these facilities so frequently that my commentary on why it's bad to work for one of the Programs is general and not just you.
You certainly sound sincere. What you don't appear to realize is that the system jaded you by presenting what you were seeing done there as "not abuse."
A lot of the things they routinely do, like making people walk "nut to butt" everywhere and punishing them if they fall out, depriving them of weather-appropriate attire, blanket interference with their mail-----those are all abusive, and the mail thing is incredibly unethical.
Laymen seem to be not that fussed by it, but as a professional matter it is incredibly unethical and is the scum on the surface that tells the tale of the corruption beneath.
I ended up making it sound like all that was "at you" because I lost track, halfway through the post, of the fact that you don't work there anymore. Sorry, I got distracted.
That really is my *general* response to people working at Programs and rationalizing.
I know *you* don't (or rather, I now remember), and I don't mean to blast *you*.
My whole thing with you is that it would be good if you could come to realize where many of the things you routinely saw *were* abuse---the system just conditioned you not to consider them abuse.
Good lord, if I lived in Pennsylvania or Montana and *deliberately* took my kid's shoelaces away in wintertime, for *any* reason, they'd take my kid out of my home and prosecute me. If I deliberately kept my kid out of climate-appropriate winter footwear (read: snow boots), same thing.
It's neglect when you can't afford it (and don't ask for social services help) or you're just careless. It's abuse when you *deliberately* withhold the necessities.
I know what's setting me off about you saying you didn't see abuse is that so much of the routine stuff is abuse. For you to say you didn't see abuse has to mean that you got so accustomed to seeing certain very shocking things that they didn't register with you as abusive.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 11:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-29 07:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-28 21:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have tried and tried to tell you all that I am NOT a WWASP supporter. Yes, I worked there, but no I don't support, believe in or agree with what they do there. I was just being honest when I said that I hadn't seen the abuse with "my own eyes", so I couldn't testify to it happening. I never said I doubted that it happened. Why is it so hard for you people to believe that just because someone worked there they can't be trying to make things right? There are more people still working there that are trying to make a difference by staying there and doing the best to help these kids. If you go to the Spring Creekers site on Myspace and look at the topic titled "favorite staff" you'll see that even the kids have found a few staff that are working to make changes by being there for the kids.
After I started working there I started hearing rumours about this website, so I checked it out. I was trying to find answers to questions I had about things that were going on in the program. Like I said before I never saw any PHYSICAL abuse, so I concentrated on the verbal and mental abuse I saw going on. I wanted to put an end to that, but I wasn't sure how to do it. I called CPS, but all they said was they were watching the situation closely.
The part that got to me was the person that said I should be ashamed for staying on there after I knew what was going on, but you tell me a better way to watch and get evidence of what was happening. Why are you all so quick to judge my intentions when you don't even know me. I don't know any of you, but when I read your stories about the things that happened to you while in these places I didn't immediately assume you were a liar. I listened and I learned. That's exactly what I did while working there. I talked to the girls in my care and tried to be there for them when they needed me. I did try to get something done by contacting the proper authorities and will continue to do so if they need me to.
"Everyone thinks they are doing such a great deed, but you are not, do not fool yourselves."
So do I just quit what I'm doing because you think I'm fooling myself? I don't think I'm doing a great deed, but I feel like I'm trying to do "something" instead of just sitting around making posts to this website about it.
I tried to get the girls in my family to give me any little bit of info about what was happening at SCL that they could, so I could take that to CPS with proof. I didn't want to go there and then have SCL tell them I was just a disgruntled employee. I wanted something to back up what I had to say. Fortunately for the girls in my care, none of them had experienced any abuse while there. Granted, they could have been witholding information for fear of some sort of retaliation against them. I do know for a fact that that shit does happen, not only to the kids but to the staff that dare to cross managment. That, I've seen with my own eyes.
To those that suffered while there, I am so very sorry for what you went through. I don't say that to calm my own "guilt" like someone had said I was doing. I say that with sincere sadness for what happened to you. That's the reason I'm still trying to help anyway possible to get these programs shut down, but I don't know what else to do besides what I've already tried. That's why I started coming here so that I could maybe find a way to do more, but I see that you will never believe in my sincerity no matter what I say. I guess I'm back to trying it on my own again.
"
Are you kidding me? You expected abused kids to confide in *you*? One of (to them) the enemy?
Suuuuure you're "the nice guard." You're their old friend old buddy old pal who is going to blunder around in your hopeless naivete and get *their* asses beat into the ground and worse.
When *your* naivete gets somebody horribly, horribly retaliated against *it won't be you*. They know that. They know that full well.
That you have to ask them or prod them to see *if* abuse is going on tells them everything they need to know about you----that you're a naive effing fool who is going to blunder around and get *them* hurt worse and then let yourself off the hook for it (or, more likely, not even notice it happened) because of your "good intentions."
The only right thing to do is to quit being complicit in their abuse by stopping working there.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
When you work for bad people who do bad things, they *use* you---they use your well meaning, innocent naivete as a front, they make sure that people checking them out either encounter the really slick liars or you. People encountering you will feel that you're honest and well meaning and will, on the basis of meeting you, come to the completely false conclusion that it's a safe place to leave their kid.
People like you working for them is the only thing that makes it possible for them to stay in business. Without people like you in it, their whole con would fall apart.
You think people here just post on Fornits and that's all we do?
I'm an author. I pass the truth along to my readers---the truth that behavior modification facilities are terrible places to put children and are terribly unsafe---particularly for children with mental health problems like cutting, depression, bipolar disorder, or borderline personality disorder.
This week, I also passed the truth along to my pshrink, who has a local radio show. I gave him the name of the book _Help At Any Cost_ and went over the highlights of the red flags against these places.
A lot of people on Fornits are often surprised by my insistence that the blanket stopping of the kids' mail is horrible, dangerous, ominous, and highly unethical. For a licensed clinical psychologist or licensed psychiatrist, it's one of the biggest red flags I can say about these places, and one of the easiest to verify.
One of the first things they teach about ethics in the beginning abnormal psychology classes is that inpatient hospitals, facilities, whatever, must not and may not ethically stop patients' mail *except* when a patient's own personal doctor decides, for a very limited time, that getting or sending certain letters would hurt the patient. The usual examples are where the patient is threatening or stalking someone, or some of the patient's obnoxious relatives are sending horrible, abusive letters haranguing him, or are sending him martyred guilt trips and playing destructive head games on him.
When I tell any psychology or psychiatry professional that these places stop the patients' mail across the board, as a blanket policy, while the patient is on "level 1" or the equivalent---that is, until the patient begins to be compliant about saying what the facility wants them to say.... When I tell licensed professionals in the field about that, every red flag they have goes off immediately.
So my doctor immediately knew exactly what these places were like. Just from knowing about the mail, he could pretty much infer the rest. Messing with the patients' mail outside those very narrow and specific guidelines is such an ethics no-no.
How can I explain it so that you'll understand? Okay, put it like this. If you told me a lawyer got drunk at lunch with you and told you all the private business of one of his clients, that's all you'd have to tell me about that lawyer. If you told me a Catholic Priest went and told a husband his wife had said in confession that she was having an affair, that's all you'd have to tell me about that Priest. I'd know that lawyer and priest were shamelessly unethical SOBs.
Screwing around with an institutionalized person's mail, outside of those very narrow and specific guidelines, or stretching those guidelines a lot but saying you're still within them------that is so taboo that when you hear a place is doing it, that is absolutely all a decent professional needs to know about a place to know they're shamelessly unethical SOBs.
You're like the law clerk for the lawyer who drunkenly shares his clients' privileged information all over town. When people think ill of you for working for "that guy" if you could get another job, they're right. Whether you see it or not, they're right.
When you continue to work for someone once you know they have serious ethics problems, you taint yourself with their lack of ethics, because they're getting their money unethically, and you're feeding at that trough. Whether you get paid well or a pittance doesn't matter----your bills are getting paid off of that unethical behavior.
Exit Plan has told us many of the horrible things SCL does. Taking the tainted money they take in is how you pay your bills.
You can tell yourself it's a pittance, you can tell yourself your intentions are good, you can ask what else can you do and rationalize it all you want.
People who do horrible things *usually* manage to rationalize it away and come up with a bazillion empty "reasons" why what they're doing is only what they have to do, from the best of intentions.
So anyway, I told a psychiatrist with a mental health radio show about the "troubled teen" scam and how dangerous it is, and gave him the title of Help at Any Cost---which is a good starting place for someone first learning about this horror.
His listenership is exactly the target market for this industry. Middle-class, mostly white, middle aged parents who are worried about their teenagers.
He'll be able to do a far better job than I would at warning parents away from the scam, and drawing the distinction between the Behavior Modification Program scams versus the real, ethical, medical model, inpatient care for the few patients who are are imminently dangerous to themselves or others and are in dire need of a short term hospitalization to get stabilized.
Sending your child to a facility that routinely stops the mail for all of the incoming kids, for *any* length of time, is like sending your best friend to a divorce attorney who sleeps with his clients.
The scum you see floating on the top merely hints at the corruption underneath those waters.
When you work for viral scum, you get infected.
Julie"
Lucid argument, but unfortunately based on the incorrect premise that all these schools stop the mail. SCL doesn't. Only the parents can determine who sends to or receives mail from their kids. And with very few exceptions, no one reads the students' mail, either.
So what if I lied to you about the lawyer breaking confidence? What if I didn't have a clue whether or not that priest really said anything about the affair? If six people said they did, and six said they didn't, would you have the good sense to go ask them yourself?
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 11:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-28 21:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have tried and tried to tell you all that I am NOT a WWASP supporter. Yes, I worked there, but no I don't support, believe in or agree with what they do there. I was just being honest when I said that I hadn't seen the abuse with "my own eyes", so I couldn't testify to it happening. I never said I doubted that it happened. Why is it so hard for you people to believe that just because someone worked there they can't be trying to make things right? There are more people still working there that are trying to make a difference by staying there and doing the best to help these kids. If you go to the Spring Creekers site on Myspace and look at the topic titled "favorite staff" you'll see that even the kids have found a few staff that are working to make changes by being there for the kids.
After I started working there I started hearing rumours about this website, so I checked it out. I was trying to find answers to questions I had about things that were going on in the program. Like I said before I never saw any PHYSICAL abuse, so I concentrated on the verbal and mental abuse I saw going on. I wanted to put an end to that, but I wasn't sure how to do it. I called CPS, but all they said was they were watching the situation closely.
The part that got to me was the person that said I should be ashamed for staying on there after I knew what was going on, but you tell me a better way to watch and get evidence of what was happening. Why are you all so quick to judge my intentions when you don't even know me. I don't know any of you, but when I read your stories about the things that happened to you while in these places I didn't immediately assume you were a liar. I listened and I learned. That's exactly what I did while working there. I talked to the girls in my care and tried to be there for them when they needed me. I did try to get something done by contacting the proper authorities and will continue to do so if they need me to.
"Everyone thinks they are doing such a great deed, but you are not, do not fool yourselves."
So do I just quit what I'm doing because you think I'm fooling myself? I don't think I'm doing a great deed, but I feel like I'm trying to do "something" instead of just sitting around making posts to this website about it.
I tried to get the girls in my family to give me any little bit of info about what was happening at SCL that they could, so I could take that to CPS with proof. I didn't want to go there and then have SCL tell them I was just a disgruntled employee. I wanted something to back up what I had to say. Fortunately for the girls in my care, none of them had experienced any abuse while there. Granted, they could have been witholding information for fear of some sort of retaliation against them. I do know for a fact that that shit does happen, not only to the kids but to the staff that dare to cross managment. That, I've seen with my own eyes.
To those that suffered while there, I am so very sorry for what you went through. I don't say that to calm my own "guilt" like someone had said I was doing. I say that with sincere sadness for what happened to you. That's the reason I'm still trying to help anyway possible to get these programs shut down, but I don't know what else to do besides what I've already tried. That's why I started coming here so that I could maybe find a way to do more, but I see that you will never believe in my sincerity no matter what I say. I guess I'm back to trying it on my own again.
"
Are you kidding me? You expected abused kids to confide in *you*? One of (to them) the enemy?
Suuuuure you're "the nice guard." You're their old friend old buddy old pal who is going to blunder around in your hopeless naivete and get *their* asses beat into the ground and worse.
When *your* naivete gets somebody horribly, horribly retaliated against *it won't be you*. They know that. They know that full well.
That you have to ask them or prod them to see *if* abuse is going on tells them everything they need to know about you----that you're a naive effing fool who is going to blunder around and get *them* hurt worse and then let yourself off the hook for it (or, more likely, not even notice it happened) because of your "good intentions."
The only right thing to do is to quit being complicit in their abuse by stopping working there.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
When you work for bad people who do bad things, they *use* you---they use your well meaning, innocent naivete as a front, they make sure that people checking them out either encounter the really slick liars or you. People encountering you will feel that you're honest and well meaning and will, on the basis of meeting you, come to the completely false conclusion that it's a safe place to leave their kid.
People like you working for them is the only thing that makes it possible for them to stay in business. Without people like you in it, their whole con would fall apart.
You think people here just post on Fornits and that's all we do?
I'm an author. I pass the truth along to my readers---the truth that behavior modification facilities are terrible places to put children and are terribly unsafe---particularly for children with mental health problems like cutting, depression, bipolar disorder, or borderline personality disorder.
This week, I also passed the truth along to my pshrink, who has a local radio show. I gave him the name of the book _Help At Any Cost_ and went over the highlights of the red flags against these places.
A lot of people on Fornits are often surprised by my insistence that the blanket stopping of the kids' mail is horrible, dangerous, ominous, and highly unethical. For a licensed clinical psychologist or licensed psychiatrist, it's one of the biggest red flags I can say about these places, and one of the easiest to verify.
One of the first things they teach about ethics in the beginning abnormal psychology classes is that inpatient hospitals, facilities, whatever, must not and may not ethically stop patients' mail *except* when a patient's own personal doctor decides, for a very limited time, that getting or sending certain letters would hurt the patient. The usual examples are where the patient is threatening or stalking someone, or some of the patient's obnoxious relatives are sending horrible, abusive letters haranguing him, or are sending him martyred guilt trips and playing destructive head games on him.
When I tell any psychology or psychiatry professional that these places stop the patients' mail across the board, as a blanket policy, while the patient is on "level 1" or the equivalent---that is, until the patient begins to be compliant about saying what the facility wants them to say.... When I tell licensed professionals in the field about that, every red flag they have goes off immediately.
So my doctor immediately knew exactly what these places were like. Just from knowing about the mail, he could pretty much infer the rest. Messing with the patients' mail outside those very narrow and specific guidelines is such an ethics no-no.
How can I explain it so that you'll understand? Okay, put it like this. If you told me a lawyer got drunk at lunch with you and told you all the private business of one of his clients, that's all you'd have to tell me about that lawyer. If you told me a Catholic Priest went and told a husband his wife had said in confession that she was having an affair, that's all you'd have to tell me about that Priest. I'd know that lawyer and priest were shamelessly unethical SOBs.
Screwing around with an institutionalized person's mail, outside of those very narrow and specific guidelines, or stretching those guidelines a lot but saying you're still within them------that is so taboo that when you hear a place is doing it, that is absolutely all a decent professional needs to know about a place to know they're shamelessly unethical SOBs.
You're like the law clerk for the lawyer who drunkenly shares his clients' privileged information all over town. When people think ill of you for working for "that guy" if you could get another job, they're right. Whether you see it or not, they're right.
When you continue to work for someone once you know they have serious ethics problems, you taint yourself with their lack of ethics, because they're getting their money unethically, and you're feeding at that trough. Whether you get paid well or a pittance doesn't matter----your bills are getting paid off of that unethical behavior.
Exit Plan has told us many of the horrible things SCL does. Taking the tainted money they take in is how you pay your bills.
You can tell yourself it's a pittance, you can tell yourself your intentions are good, you can ask what else can you do and rationalize it all you want.
People who do horrible things *usually* manage to rationalize it away and come up with a bazillion empty "reasons" why what they're doing is only what they have to do, from the best of intentions.
So anyway, I told a psychiatrist with a mental health radio show about the "troubled teen" scam and how dangerous it is, and gave him the title of Help at Any Cost---which is a good starting place for someone first learning about this horror.
His listenership is exactly the target market for this industry. Middle-class, mostly white, middle aged parents who are worried about their teenagers.
He'll be able to do a far better job than I would at warning parents away from the scam, and drawing the distinction between the Behavior Modification Program scams versus the real, ethical, medical model, inpatient care for the few patients who are are imminently dangerous to themselves or others and are in dire need of a short term hospitalization to get stabilized.
Sending your child to a facility that routinely stops the mail for all of the incoming kids, for *any* length of time, is like sending your best friend to a divorce attorney who sleeps with his clients.
The scum you see floating on the top merely hints at the corruption underneath those waters.
When you work for viral scum, you get infected.
Julie"
You spout off like you're so intelligent, but you didn't bother to read that I NO LONGER WORK THERE you dumb ass! It must be so exciting for you to go on and on calling me a naive because I was trying to do something I thought was good. Wow, maybe I'm not a big time "author" like you Julie, but I was trying to do something to help. Maybe it was the right thing and then again maybe it wasn't, but that's not for you to decide.
As for the girls in my family not saying anything because they were afraid they'd get in trouble, some of them have actually gotten a hold of me to tell me stuff. Since I NO LONGER WORK THERE they are keeping in contact with me other ways and I've been able to get some info, with their permission, to give to CPS.
Again, if you actually bothered to read my post, you'd see that I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT THAT PLACE ACTUALLY WAS UNTIL I WENT TO WORK THERE. When I realized what was happening I was going to quit immediately. I didn't need the job to "pay my bills" as you put it. I was contacted by another staff person out there who was already working with CPS and she asked me to help out. Was I wrong to stay working out there as you said I was...NO! Why is it so hard for you to understand that I was trying to help the only way I could. According to you I should have quit and started writing letters and attending protest, but don't you think that having a better insite into the workings of the place and getting as much info as possible was better?
Because the other staff person and myself stayed on longer we were able to get information for a parent that was going to file a lawsuit against SCL, so even though you think I'm an idiot and naieve for staying, it actually helped someone, so you can go to hell if you don't like the way I handled it Ms. Author.
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
You post this quote and then you damn me for trying to do something, make up your mind! I may not be an "author" who can pass info on to a radio shrink, but I was doing the best with the info and resources I had. I was able to contact a few parents at different times and encourage them to check things out further. I had to be careful what I said because I had heard they listen in on the phones.
You try to make me out to be some evil person out to hurt the kids there because I might get them "retaliated" against. Do you actually think I would have done that on purpose? I never tried to trick them or coerce them in anyway to tell me what was going on. I just asked questions and if they wanted to tell me anything then they would. I would also not screen their mail like I was told to do, because I disagreed with the whole withholding mail shit.
Why is it that your way of handling things is the only right way to do it? What makes you so much better at it than me? Like I said I WAS TRYING TO HELP AND DO SOMETHING TO STOP WHAT I SAW. If you don't like the way I handled it then that's your problem. Maybe I'm not as well versed as you and maybe I haven't expressed myself as well, but we all can't be big time authors. Some of us are just normal people trying to help in whatever way they can.
[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-30 11:26 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 11:23:00 AM
I'm just too outraged at these facilities and what they do to say anything (to anybody) off the cuff without letting it sit for a few minutes and reading it again.
The image of lines of kids trudging along in shoelace-less sneakers, in the cold, just tears me up so much I have trouble not going ballistic every time the subject comes up.
The daily living conditions are abusive in and of themselves. That's why I can't read "staff" and "didn't personally see abuse" in the same post without just losing it.
I get that you're sincere, anon. I do. I just wish that you could get that what you saw every day is abuse.
Julie
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 29, 2006, 11:46:00 AM
As for Exit Plan, if I were closer to you in distance, I would give you a big hug. It pains me to read that you're shaking out there somewhere. Just know I am sending you a long distance hug.
I am thankful we have a place we can all talk. We are learning from one another. I just wish we could do something more about it, so we can make it stop. I don't want to be on here 5 years from now, and have the next generation coming on here posting the same types of things we are posting. That would be a shame.
Gotta go!
Post by: Irish Mom on March 29, 2006, 12:58:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-29 08:46:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I for one, would like you to stick around ANON. I will try not to give you too hard of a time! It's hard sometimes because HELLO didn't you think it was a little odd how they were running things in general? Didn't you think it was a little harsh? I mean, maybe you didn't see students getting beat, those were always things that I am sure were done more privately because they are not stupid. But, the emotional abuse is pretty obvious. As a staff member, I know you could see that. From day 1, not day 2, 3, 1 week, 1 month, etc. from the very start. So, naturally I can't help but wonder what kind of person are you?
As for Exit Plan, if I were closer to you in distance, I would give you a big hug. It pains me to read that you're shaking out there somewhere. Just know I am sending you a long distance hug.
I am thankful we have a place we can all talk. We are learning from one another. I just wish we could do something more about it, so we can make it stop. I don't want to be on here 5 years from now, and have the next generation coming on here posting the same types of things we are posting. That would be a shame.
Gotta go!"
I finally got rid of the baghead, so maybe now you all will see I'm not "hiding" behind it. I just never got around to getting a screename.
CCM you say I should have realized what kind of place it was from day one, but that's not always possible. Maybe I should explain how the process goes when you're hired out there.
You start what is called Observation Week. This is where they throw all the stuff you are supposed to know at you in one week. You go to different families for a few hours a day to see how they are run. While you're doing this you're supposed to be taking notes and asking any question that I want you to. Meanwhile, you're thrown into an enviroment that is totally foreign to some people and expected to know everything within that week. It's very, very overwhelming at times. I didn't even get a full week of training before I was put in charge of 26 girls, who came from all different kinds of background and with all types of problems.
When you first start there they tell you not to believe a word these kids say. They're all liars and terrible brats. I'd better say those aren't my words before anyone jumps on me for it...lol. You're there to enforce the rules, not be their friend. That was the first sign to me that something was wrong. It went against my nature as a Mom to not want to "take care" of these girls like a Mom should. Maybe that was totally naieve of me, but then according to Julie, that's what I was. Yes, I went into it blindly. I thought it was a "boarding school" for kids with "problems" and I thought I could maybe help, but like you said they didn't want me to help the kids...I was there to "guard" them and enforce "consequences".
Maybe we don't see the negative things that are there right away because it's to horrible to realize what is actually going on there. I never said that I didn't see the emotional and mental abuse going on, in fact, I said the opposite. The only thing I had said was that I didn't see the "physical" abuse happening and that's what everyone jumped on.
CCM you say that you wonder what kind of person I am that I stayed past days 1,2 ,3, etc. Does staying to try to make a difference make me a bad person? Maybe it was naieve on my part to think I could actually make a difference, but I did think that. I still keep in contact with some of the girls in my family and they tell me that they are so glad I stayed, even after the shit I got from other staff and managment. I didn't stay for the money or to pay my bills like I was accused of. I stayed because I cared and if that's the wrong thing in your eyes, then so be it. Hearing from them means more to me than what you think of me.
I'm still trying to make a difference out there, but now my hands are really tied, because I'm not out there to keep track of what's happening and report it. People are leaving that place in HUGE numbers! They've already gone through everyone in the community and there isn't anyone left to go work there, so who knows what will happen now.
I'm sorry if I'm not as well versed or as good at getting my feelings across the correct way as some of you are. I'm still learning about all the bullshit that's really out there and I just say what I feel, but it always seems to be taken wrong and I don't know how to change that. If you have any suggestions as to how I can come across better or what else I can do to keep trying to get these places closed, please feel free to email me at [email protected]
Post by: Troll Control on March 29, 2006, 02:59:00 PM
Keep doing what you're doing.
I was a staff member over ten years ago for a facility called "Hidden Lake Academy." It was disturbing and I left after a short tenure.
One day I was searching the net to see what ever happened to that place (I was sure it must have been shuttered) and was greatly surprised to see they were still around.
To make a long story short, I started posting my impressions, experiences, etc. That was over a thousand posts ago...and counting.
Keep educating readers as much as you can.
Post by: Antigen on March 29, 2006, 04:29:00 PM
Where do you think it comes from? Knowing what you know about the Program and how it works, why do you think some of these people would respond in that way?
I think I have a pretty good idea, tough of course I can only speak for myself. And I certainly couldn't articulate it or even really understand it even a couple of years ago when I started this site, nevermind 23 years when I first escaped one of these places.
Everybody in the industry, except a sadistic few, are working from good intentions. Art Barker was, I'm sure of it. Chuck Dederich probably was, at least early on. Hard to believe he still didn't know how fucked up he was toward the end. But then it's not impossible to believe it either. This is the nature of corruption. This is how the Program works.
When I went in, I had good intentions. My intention was to tough it out without compromising my own ethics till I could split, graduate or come of age. I was 15.75 years old when I made that resolution. And, except for a very few, deeply disturbing and very brief lapses of insanity, I thought that's just what I was doing, even right up till the end. I split just about exactly 2 years later, so close to either of two finish lines, when things went really beyond the pale, even for that place.
But I discovered, gradually, over many years how just being in that environment, going through the motions had effected me deeply. It changed my personality, my perspective on many things, even my very perception of things. This not only against my will but also without my notice. I thought I was immune. I thought I understood all there was to understand about it.
And it wasn't so much the things we all put up with on the lower phases, though those are the things most often mentioned and most easily understood by outlanders as bad. It was the things we all had to do in the role of peer staff, as everyone who progresses beyond the very first phase or level essentially plays.
If you want a quick read on how that happens, check out the Stanford Prison Experiment.
http://www.prisonexp.org/ (http://www.prisonexp.org/)
You may be gratified and comforted to know that even these trained psyche researchers didn't see it coming.
So can you see why it might be hard for someone to trust or easily understand how and why a well inteded person could do that job for so long?
Education is a better safeguard of liberty than a standing army.
--Edward Everett
Post by: Anonymous on March 29, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
However, I do stand by the fact that I think staff shouldn't keep working at a place they disagree with. What if they all or even half quit at once? Like many people on here, I refuse to sympathize with staff, it's a ludicrous suggestion given what others have lived through. I was not at SCL, but I was at CCM where they had small locked rooms, and I was also at another program where they also had similar isolation rooms. I've been locked up for nearly a month at the longest and cannot begin to describe the way that changes a person. I'm in my twenties now and can still remember the feeling of having someone, or multiple someones, keeping me secluded from human contact for weeks on end. I would've killed myself on several occasions, rather than endure another day of that, if we were allowed any possessions so I could give it a real try. I was insulted, laughed at, and looked down upon with disgust. I wasn't treated like a human. Animals deserve better treatment.
I do still think that people who've been kept locked up, placed in isolation, and had unreasonable punishments done to them have the right to question their former jailers and ask, What on earth were you thinking? Why didn't you try to save me? How could you keep cashing paychecks and coming to work for an organization that jails kids just because their parents are willing to pay for it?
Post by: Irish Mom on March 29, 2006, 09:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-29 17:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay I can see my comment about the staff being a "Montana inbred" ruffled some feathers. I am not usually a name caller and retract that part of my posting. I'd like to return to participating in this conversation rationally.
However, I do stand by the fact that I think staff shouldn't keep working at a place they disagree with. What if they all or even half quit at once? Like many people on here, I refuse to sympathize with staff, it's a ludicrous suggestion given what others have lived through. I was not at SCL, but I was at CCM where they had small locked rooms, and I was also at another program where they also had similar isolation rooms. I've been locked up for nearly a month at the longest and cannot begin to describe the way that changes a person. I'm in my twenties now and can still remember the feeling of having someone, or multiple someones, keeping me secluded from human contact for weeks on end. I would've killed myself on several occasions, rather than endure another day of that, if we were allowed any possessions so I could give it a real try. I was insulted, laughed at, and looked down upon with disgust. I wasn't treated like a human. Animals deserve better treatment.
I do still think that people who've been kept locked up, placed in isolation, and had unreasonable punishments done to them have the right to question their former jailers and ask, What on earth were you thinking? Why didn't you try to save me? How could you keep cashing paychecks and coming to work for an organization that jails kids just because their parents are willing to pay for it?"
Yes, your comment about my being a "montana inbred" was totally uncalled for, especially since I'm not even from Montana. It will take a lot more than being called names to hurt me, so if it makes you feel any better,go ahead.
I'm not asking for your sympathy at all. I don't need it, nor do I want it. I stayed at my job for a reason, and I was able to accomplish a little of what I realized needed to be done. Maybe it's not up to your standards of what you feel I should have done, but I can't help that. I guess you feel I could have done more by just quiting and doing nothing. That wasn't for me. I wanted to do something, anything to get the word out to CPS as to what was going on. This will be my last time justifying to you my reasons for staying there.
After finding this site and reading what a lot of you have gone through, I'm even more convinced that what I did was correct. If CPS is even able to either get things changed or get this place shut down, because of the info I was able to give them, then I'm happy. There are now a set of parents that have info to help their lawsuit because I was able to get stuff to them. Maybe that's not enough in your book.
I won't even attempt to say that I understand what you've gone through. That would be stupid, but I can say I'm so very, very sorry. Whether you believe me or not is up to you, but I am truly sorry for what you suffered through.
Irish Mom
[ This Message was edited by: Irish Mom on 2006-03-29 18:45 ]
Formatting:[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-30 11:40 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 30, 2006, 12:02:00 AM
The staff are going to be far more credible witnesses of abuse than the teens, who are discredited by the parent handbook and program even before their arrival. Does anyone have any ideas of ways to help staff organize and publicize what they've seen? So many of WWASP staff are family members & family friends, and it seems a shame that one who is actually outspoken has only been heard on Fornits.
Post by: Irish Mom on March 30, 2006, 12:33:00 AM
Families are struggling to stay together and even be able to afford decent places to live and to be able to take care of their children. A lot of the employees out there are related to each other either by blood or by marriage, so what you do out there can affect your family. I was one of the lucky ones who didn't need to work.
Does this make their silence right? No, but I can see why they are so afraid to speak up. SCL has fingers in a lot of pies in this town. They spread a lot of dough around and unfortunately too many people here need it.
The other thing is I don't think this town is exactly known for their activism. I remember reading a post where someone said it was full of "redneck working class stiffs" or something to that effect. That's not far from the truth. They need to be educated on how to take a stand against this, but damn there is so much WWASP brainwashing that goes on I don't know how that will ever happen. Any suggestions?
I have noticed something in the last few months that might seem promising. They are leaving that place in droves! One shift had 5 people walk off that weekend! Maybe that's a start?
Post by: Anonymous on March 30, 2006, 11:57:00 AM
Too many people would rather grasp at a straw than make the hard choice of moving someplace they can move to where they can get a job and pay the rent.
My family on my dad's side has several generations in a community that is similar in a lot of ways.
One of the things people do is get jobs as truckers. Their job is on the road, so it doesn't matter where their family lives.
Some places you have to own a large piece of land free and clear to be able to feed yourself and afford to live there. Sure, you can buy enough land to stick a house or trailer on, cheap. But you can't earn enough to pay your bills and feed yourself on---not without selling your soul to someplace like SCL.
What I want you to do is convince your county officials to go to the state and see if you can develop a plan and get some development money to get it into action.
What your county needs to do is sit down with some bright whiz kids and come up with a niche.
For example, the area where my parents live/family is from, has a lot of small machine shops. They do parts orders for various places that need parts, and since there are a *lot* of small machine shops, if an order is too big for one they can collaborate. If one goes under, the employees have other places to go. The better managed ones prosper, the poorly managed ones go out of business. But because the county has it going as a small industry, businesses who need that know where to look for suppliers to fill their various parts orders. Your usual supplier too full up to get your contract out when you need it? They can refer you to the shop down the street that can---and the shop down the street can refer overflow business back. Upgrading equipment? Somebody wants your used stuff. Can't keep the business afloat? There *is* someone to buy your assets.
You need a niche. Other than SCL.
Practically speaking, I suspect SCL probably keeps on as good of financial terms as they find necessary with your local elected officials. By which I mean that if they aren't on the take now, if the citizenry rocks the boat, they will be.
Small, rural counties often work that way. Even if, now, the benefit to the officials is just occasionally getting taken to lunch, or getting treated with respect by people who look important. And your elected officials can genuinely tell themselves they're doing "the right thing" for the county.
You need a development plan.
For one thing, there are frequently programs that provide money for vocational training. A group of enough of you together could pick up something you could set up as a manufacturing business and run for enough to pay the bills. Given foreign competition, nobody would be getting rich.
Still, you could get a bunch of you getting training with the financial assistance available to fill the needed roles in your desired business, and then get a small business loan to set it up. Put it in the names of the wives in whatever way you have to to fulfill the requirements of a woman-owned business---because it broadens your loan and grant opportunities.
You can't do it in a haphazard way. There's got to be a very solid analysis of the markets available and your competition. Then you've got to have several somebodies smart enough to do the beancounter work, several somebodies hard-nosed enough to do the management work and run it with an eye to the bottom line, not as a charity for local employment. You've got to have somebodies smart enough to keep your costs and prices down and keep you competitive. You've got to have somebodies with the sales and marketing talents to get out there and sell your products.
Failure to plan is planning to fail. You have to have a solid economic development plan.
The people orchestrating the effort and those that ultimately benefit from it also have to be prepared to make lifelong and vicious local enemies of a number of people very interested in the initial idea---interested in emotional buy in, interested in talking about it, sometimes actually getting the training to do some of the jobs.
Because a number of the ones that try will be either incompetent or won't work out as employees for some other reason. Or their wife or husband or kid or parent or cousin won't work out.
You have to have people running it who are hard nosed enough to put the bottom line first, or it will fail. You have to allow some individuals to fail to have anyone succeed.
Even among those who fail, *most* of them will be able to get some kind of job in a shop or food service or cleaning service that doesn't exist now. But they will still hate you, because especially if they went and got training, they'll feel like they deserve something better.
The competent ones who just don't fit in will leave town and get jobs someplace they do fit in. The incompetent ones will bitch, moan, complain, and hate you bitterly.
Capitalism *works*---but you have to have enough faith in yourself to get out and do it. What you *don't* have to do is already be successful---because there are a lot of grant and loan options out there to get your plan working *if* you build the plan.
But nobody can help your community if you won't pull together and plan.
You can even tell people up front (because everybody will say "it won't be me that fails") that some of the people who try won't succeed at their training or won't be able to get the job done as employees for one reason or another. That the plan won't promise to take care of everybody and won't even try. That individuals are going to have to set their sights on what they really can learn how to do, work hard to learn how to do it, and once you start up, work hard at their jobs and work hard to get along with their coworkers.
Your salaried jobs will probably be working sixty hour weeks just so you don't have to hire as many people and can put those salaried jobs in the hands of people with the talents and temperament to do them best.
You may have to bring in talent from outside the county to run marketing, sales, operations, and the top slot. If you do, it's an understatement to say that that will be an unpopular choice.
You'd have to have a cabal of the most level-headed women, and most able to be hard-nosed capitalists, to own the company and take out the loans. Women who can recognize competence and aren't afraid to hire it. Women who either don't have shiftless husbands or fathers, etc., or exceptionally hard-nosed women who will be willing to sacrifice those relationships, if necessary, to avoid putting father, husband, brother, son, son-in-law, etc. in jobs they can't or won't do right.
Or, if your only business talent is men, you may have to take the harder path of getting business loans and assistance for them to own and run your new significant employer.
Some disgruntled people will set up in competition with the main line of the project---or will try. If you picked the best talents (business savvy and work ethic are talents) for the main line effort, it will succeed. The competition will either succeed or fail depending on *their* talents.
Anyway, capitalism works. But only if you're willing to put in the skull sweat, develop a viable plan, and implement it without being a soft touch for schmucks, micromanagers, abrasive assholes who do more harm than good, and other bad employees/managers.
But it obviously has to be an industry that can sell goods or services to the people outside your community, at a profit, and bring an influx of cash.
The Chamber of Commerce, Lion's Club, or Rotary Club--that kind of thing, anyway, in Helena would be a good place to find successful businessmen who might be willing to take on helping you put together a development plan as a charitable project and a way to "give back" to the state. The business-oriented departments of state universities also might have graduate students willing to take on helping you develop a plan as a project for academic credit. Or you might be able to get one of the professors to make helping your county develop a plan a class project for one of their courses.
Instead of leaving it to county government, what you'd really want to do is organize your friends and neighbors into an economic development club.
Blah-blah County Economic Development Society or somesuch.
I suspect SCL will see it (correctly) as a threat and try to sabatoge it. I suspect they'll play dirty. Just don't let them. They can't stop you if you start the club yourself and don't let their influences in the door.
You can develop a business plan for whatever size group of people you get to buy in---from one or two to hundreds or even thousands. Profitable enterprises come in all shapes and sizes.
Your county's biggest problem is the same as the biggest problem of all rural, poor counties. Laying down and giving up and believing the lie that you can't do it. People need stuff. People want to buy stuff. People want to trade with you if you will figure out what they need and want and bring it to the table.
With educational and small business assistance available for government, the only reason for a community to fail in the US is if everybody moves out and leaves it a ghost town (which truly isn't a failure---the *people* are fine, just elsewhere), or if they give up and don't try.
Take the damn grants and loans. The worst that can happen is that you'd have to declare bankruptcy. Go for the grants as much as possible, of course, because student loans are almost never dischargeable in bankruptcy---but there are ways to fiddle with that a lot to ease the pain.
On business grants and loans, the worst that can happen, if you incorporate, is that the business fails.
And if someone learns a useful trade and the business fails (or they get fired or not hired), they don't necessarily have only the option of bankruptcy---they can move and get a job somewhere else in their field.
Your worst case on getting your friends and neighbors together in an economic development club and getting help with a solid business plan is better than your best case of just sitting there and waiting for some business from outside the community to come in and rescue you---or worse, just giving up altogether.
Warning: Don't let the Chamber of Commerce or the elected officials run the thing. It leaves your organization too susceptible to any sabotage efforts SCL might choose to try. Understand in advance that in *some* counties, county officials could be persuaded to fuck with you with zoning problems, construction permits, and other red tape. I don't know if your county is like that, but in some counties there is corruption that is so entrenched that moving is the best choice there is.
Anyway, don't just say how poor your county is. Change it. *You* can do that. All you have to do is stand up and lead---and know *where* to lead. Which I've just told you.
BTW---I ran a just-me consulting business, incorporated, at a very solid profit and just dissolved it when I wanted to do something else. I'm now running a just-me small business as a writer. Again, profitable. It *is* possible to run both kinds so badly you run at a loss or go out of business. Both small (very small) businesses were/are net contributors to my community because they bring in money from outside. In both cases, the difference from being an employee is having to deal with the paperwork and business decisions yourself.
My uncle ran a successful machine shop small business. My mother in law ran a small business that failed. My husband's grandfather has run multiple successful small businesses, some very small, some at the upper end of "small"--he was a developer building condos in Florida. I've seen friends run small businesses that failed, and some that succeeded.
Do your market research. Keep your expenses down--especially unnecessary business trips. Don't buy or rent facilities or office space you can manage without--not until there's a *strong* business case for renting/buying the space. Don't turn away work just because it's uninteresting. Don't run it as a charity. Don't make hard luck loans. Don't make people part owners unless they buy in with cash---but be damned careful about who's holding the controlling interest and who could potentially buy it up. After you're up and running, you can potentially offer valued employees opportunity to buy in at a discounted share price as a reward (new issue shares), but keep the discount small and limit who you offer the opportunity to. Don't hire people who you don't need or who are bad business choices because of family ties, domestic pressure, or friendship. Don't undercapitalize. Don't mistake spinning your wheels in the office at something that's "work" (like sitting at your front desk and answering the phone) if it's not the thing you could do that most contributes to or preserves your bottom line. Don't hesitate to fire deadwood. Don't hire people with red flags of deadwood in the first place. Don't hesitate to hire from outside if those are the talents I want you to have---but make wise cost/benefit decisions about it. Know the difference between salary and profit. Be damned careful who you have doing the books and touching the money, and watch them like a hawk. Sales and marketing are your lifeblood. You can have the best product in the world, and if you can't or don't sell it at a sufficient profit margin, you're screwed.
Ginger may agree or disagree with me on some of this. Listen to her. She and her husband are also running an apparently successful small business. That is, I assume she's in the black and not the red---if you're going to ask her, might be tactful to ask privately. She could always tell you to go to hell, but she seems pretty nice so I wouldn't be surprised if she could give you some good advice.
But don't roll over and play dead and say the county is poor. Fix it. You're obviously smart. Running a business isn't rocket science, it just takes finding out how and exercising the self-discipline to do it.
Julie
Post by: Antigen on March 30, 2006, 03:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-29 21:33:00, Irish Mom wrote:
"Most of you may not understand this, but unfortunately most of the people that work at SCL are afraid to speak up because they HAVE to have their jobs. This is an extremely poor county and jobs are very, very scarce.
Yeah, I get that. Corn Pone Opinions. But there's more to it than just giving lip service to protect ones income or safety. Most people don't really get that because they haven't had to wrestle with it on a personal level. I have. In order to ever look at my father again and not see a monster, I had to understand this. And it also goes to what I was trying to explain about the program vets who are treating you badly or seem to be.
Fear does funny things to ones mind. We all understand that fear can make you do and say things against your own moral code. Think not? OK you just keep on telling yourself that. There are very, very few people who can actually, consistently or even usually stick closely to their moral code when the stakes are really high. But what happens next? How do you deal w/ living in your own skin once you've started down that road that leads away from your own idea of what a good and decent person is?
Most people will revise their ideas about what a good person is, what they do and how they do it to conform to what they are. And one core component of the Program is to offer you--no push upon you, surround you with--that alternative philosophy that you'll be needing.
I understand what might compel the people in that town to go to desperate measures to hang on to home and family and hope for a better future. And how well I understand how and why the Program keeps stroking their hopes and egos if they tow the line.
We all know about the stick that goes with that carrot. But I think, in order to get the locals who support any of these places to get behind any real plans to get rid of these places, they have to come to understand that the carrot is toxic and counterfeit.
I can well imagine how Program influence must have effected views and practices on parenting and other important social relationships in that town over the years. I bet what they're getting out of the deal is not worth the necessary compromises to those ideals that they started out working to save. Can they understand that? Eventually?
One things for sure, we'll never get them to open their eyes to it by classing them all as criminals and cowards in league w/ Robert Browning Litchfield. That's not accurate anyway and the truth is so much more compelling.
Quote
I have noticed something in the last few months that might seem promising. They are leaving that place in droves! One shift had 5 people walk off that weekend! Maybe that's a start?
That's very encouraging! Maybe they're ready to flip?
If you ask the Government for the right to assemble you deserve to be told no .
--Jim Lesczynski, Manhattan LP chair, on "unorganized" gathering @ Central Park
Post by: Anonymous on March 30, 2006, 09:57:00 PM
Post by: Irish Mom on March 30, 2006, 10:49:00 PM
It's sad that they are the biggest employer, yet the pay isn't all that good. They could really afford to pay their staff more if the money was being used properly, if ya know what I mean :wink:
Thompson Falls is not a bad place. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen, but it's only affordable to retired people or those with lots and lots of money. I can't remember who said it, but someone on here said that that's why they put these kind of programs in places like this. It's remote, not much to do, and they can really take over control by being the largest employer around. So very, very sad....
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 31, 2006, 10:50:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 11:05:00 AM
:grin:
Post by: Antigen on March 31, 2006, 11:35:00 AM
This is also something that wife beaters routinely do. Here's the most interesting part. Even the dumb ones restrict resources. It's not asif it takes a genius to pull off this kind of 'prison without walls' kind of control. It's instinctive.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 03:05:00 PM
Post by: The Liger on March 31, 2006, 03:17:00 PM
Thanks for the insight into the local dynamic. It is interesting to learn about the genius of the WWASPS programs and why it is so hard to gain local support against the different facilities.
I also understand that if you were not completely aware of WWASPS as a whole, you would think that you could bring about change in an individual program of theirs. It may take about a year to realize that the way it is set up is on purpose, and not for lack of vision or organization.
You know, many former employees would not even bother to come onto this forum, so thank you. I hope that we can all learn more from your experience at SCL.
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 06:34:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-30 18:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"It was the same way in LaVerkin, where Cross Creek Manor is. It is an extremely small town; one could walk from one side to the other. Bob Litchfield is related by blood or marriage to many of the staff. His wife's maiden name was Peart. His sister in law is Marie Peart, who claims to be a neutral ed con, her son and also husband Blair worked at CCM, his sister Mary Beth worked at CCM and then got married and her husband got a program, brother Narvin worked at Teen Help referral service located in the same building as Brightway when it was open, etc. Karr Farnsworth's wife and daughter also work for CCM. Many staff would get jobs and get their spouses, siblings, or other relatives hired, so they stood to lose all income if they had problems at work. I am very grateful that I live in California and don't have so few options that I have to choose between my income and my morals. However, I do wonder what the families working for SCL did before the facility opened."
Wow, that is just SCARY. Don't any parents actually VISIT the facility they are sending their kids? Doesn't it BOTHER them that there is one big pylogamous family running the operation? Don't they wonder why they pick the most isolated towns where no one questions what is going on? Sometimes I am susprised at how little parents look into these facilities.
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 09:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-31 07:50:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Why would they want to pay their staff anymore then they had too? If they were smart, and obviously they were.....they'd make it so everyone had enough money to just get by. Otherwise, you would have people starting to save their money. With money, comes the power to leave (if you don't like what's going on), and start your own business.......or just move and get the hell outta Dodge! I mean Thompson Falls :smile:!!!!
"
Ah yes, the evil manor lords plotting to keep down the peasants. My, my, these bad boys spend a lotta time thinking up ways to keep the masses from prospering. Obviously, you know them intimately. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 09:25:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 31, 2006, 09:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-31 18:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-03-31 07:50:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Why would they want to pay their staff anymore then they had too? If they were smart, and obviously they were.....they'd make it so everyone had enough money to just get by. Otherwise, you would have people starting to save their money. With money, comes the power to leave (if you don't like what's going on), and start your own business.......or just move and get the hell outta Dodge! I mean Thompson Falls :smile:!!!!
"
Ah yes, the evil manor lords plotting to keep down the peasants. My, my, these bad boys spend a lotta time thinking up ways to keep the masses from prospering. Obviously, you know them intimately. :roll: "
Um, actually I do.........and yes they are smart business men. They are not "bad boys", bad boys to me are hot guys who are commitment phobic, and every chick in town is trying to nail them down.
Sorry, not these guys.......who are old, overweight, and don't know how to dress! Also bad boys don't make money off of kiddie torture prisons........they are the ones out there trying to get these places shut down!!!
Bad boys......please! HA!
Post by: StepLeft on March 31, 2006, 10:35:00 PM
something to watch.
Post by: Irish Mom on March 31, 2006, 10:57:00 PM
[/quote]
::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha2:: ::bwahaha2::
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 07:44:00 PM
Post by: StepLeft on April 02, 2006, 09:42:00 AM
Did anyone see that movie?
Post by: Anonymous on April 02, 2006, 11:00:00 AM
Post by: StepLeft on April 02, 2006, 12:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-02 08:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"yes that is better...baby choo choo
"
Baby choo choo????
Post by: StepLeft on April 05, 2006, 12:45:00 PM
::mecry::
Post by: StepLeft on April 06, 2006, 06:01:00 PM
Ranfranz & Vine Funeral Homes
5421 Royal Place NW
Rochester, MN 55901
The date has not been set, but may be Saturday.
Family of Niki Thomas
552 21st St. NE
Rochester, MN 55906
The Rochester Post-Bulletin April 4, 2006
A Rochester woman and her son, missing for nearly a week in Montana, were
found dead late Monday afternoon near their rental vehicle. The suspected
cause of death is hypothermia.
It appears the pair tried to walk for help after their rental vehicle became
stuck on a snow-clogged mountain pass.
"We know they left the vehicle and were not far from the vehicle," said
George Zahhos, the father of Niki Thomas, 51, and grandfather of Nicholas,
15. "We're still in shock and trying to get more information, but at least
we know they were not alone. They were together."
An autopsy is expected to be performed to pinpoint the cause of death.
Funeral services are pending; arrangements are being made through Ranfranz
and Vine Funeral Homes.
Niki and Nicholas Thomas were found near Superior, Mont., in Mineral County.
Niki Thomas, a paraprofessional in the library at Mayo High School, had
traveled to Thompson Falls, Mont., last week during spring break to visit
her youngest son, who was attending Spring Creek Lodge Academy, a western
Montana boarding school. It was a surprise visit and one paid for by Niki's
family, as a birthday present.
The last time anyone heard from the two was last Tuesday as they were
returning to the school from a dentist appointment for Nicholas in Missoula,
about a two-hour trip.
At some point, they took a side road and became stuck in deep snow. Zahhos
said he was told the rental vehicle was out of gas, perhaps indicating they
had run it to stay warm. It was uncertain how long the mother and son had
been dead.
http://findnickandniki.org./ (http://findnickandniki.org./)
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on April 07, 2006, 01:18:00 AM
Post by: StepLeft on April 07, 2006, 07:48:00 AM
The family and other families that attend the school were there looking also not only SCL employee's.
Post by: StepLeft on April 07, 2006, 07:48:00 AM
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 07, 2006, 08:40:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 07, 2006, 11:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-06 22:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I don't know the area, or the weather conditions....but don't you find it odd that when they were conducting the search and rescue they didn't find the vehicle? It took them a whole week? That's a little odd, don't you think?"
No, not odd if you know Montana. Very heavy snow and fog that week. You'd be lucky to see fifty feet in front of you.
Post by: Anonymous on April 07, 2006, 12:15:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on April 07, 2006, 12:15:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-07 08:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-04-06 22:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"I don't know the area, or the weather conditions....but don't you find it odd that when they were conducting the search and rescue they didn't find the vehicle? It took them a whole week? That's a little odd, don't you think?"
No, not odd if you know Montana. Very heavy snow and fog that week. You'd be lucky to see fifty feet in front of you. "
Thanks for the info.......I didn't want to assume anything........especially when I have never traveled to Montana! I do know about fog though out here in Sacramento. I almost took out a few mailboxes in my development one day it was so bad. I am trying to imagine fog + white snow all around you that must've been like.....
God, that is just awful. I am at a loss for words.
Post by: Anonymous on April 10, 2006, 12:15:00 AM
Post by: Irish Mom on April 10, 2006, 01:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-09 21:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"hey irishmom, i just got pulled from scl, and i'm wondering if i could maybe give you some information."
You can private message me or email me at:
[email protected]
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2006, 09:24:00 AM
I was shocked! :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9640426410 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069094189640426410)
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 12, 2006, 10:27:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2006, 10:29:00 AM
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 12, 2006, 10:35:00 AM
my email address is [email protected]
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2006, 10:39:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-12 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Documentary about WWASPS, no software needed, no downloads.
I was shocked! :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9640426410 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069094189640426410) "
I just watched this again, it is definitely worth watching for parents thinking about sending their kid away to WWASPS, learn the truth and watch this video.
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 12, 2006, 11:38:00 AM
Post by: emaree on April 12, 2006, 05:19:00 PM
http://groups.myspace.com/SpringCreekLodge (http://groups.myspace.com/SpringCreekLodge)
It's a pretty loose group, but over 400 people have joined since it started about a year ago. If you want to talk to graduates or anybody at all who went there, that's definately a place to start.
And this is the best anti-wwasp forum that I know of on Myspace:
http://groups.myspace.com/EndInstitutio ... ChildAbuse (http://groups.myspace.com/EndInstitutionalizedChildAbuse)
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 12, 2006, 05:59:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2006, 09:41:00 PM
"Kelly
F/22
FORT LEONARD WOOD,
MISSOURI
Instant Message
Send Message
Posted: Apr 11, 2006 8:15 AM
Ok, so no one is posting anything anymore so let's see if we can get something started. Tell us about an experience that happenend to you in the program that sucked back then but you find it funny now.
Mine would be, one time all of us upper-level girls were caught laughing at the upper-levels boys because they were struggling to push a grill up the hill at SCL, so Chaffin made us get lotion from the store and wash and massage there feet. Yuck! "
Not sure what I should say.....good times Kelly? Perhaps she has a foot fetish and found this disgusting, humiliating, dirty activity to be a turn on? Does she not consider that to be abusive? When I was in school they couldn't force us to wash and massage boys with lotion.
Everyone who claims to be pro-WWASP is just totally in denial and refuses to acknowledge degradation and humiliation for what it was. Including Kelly, the founder of the WWASP not Anti-Wwasp Myspace group. Come on Kelly, open your eyes or at least start seeing a qualified therapist.
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2006, 09:50:00 PM
"Megan
F/23
Chicago and Boston,
MASSACHUSETTS
Instant Message
Send Message
Posted: Mar 22, 2006 10:21 AM
Because I believe that the ends was greater than the means.... I scooped shit out of an overflowing toilet and when I wrote home about it my case rep told my parents that I was lying..I remember the soup that made my entire family shit their brains out every Thursday night... I showered in the cold... I have felt the frustration that you still seem to feel.. But in the end it was worth it to me.. I met great people and I learned that no matter what I could make it in this world... That is what is important to me"
Again, she acknowledges that her caseworker falsely told her parents that she was lying, she lived with inhumane conditions, etc. Like the others, she says she made great friends. I think we all agree on that point. She feels she is stronger as a result of having lived through the abuse, which is fine, but why on earth is she glorifying it and recommending it to the world for future generations????
I guess we can conclude that "WWASP not Anti-WWASP" means "Programmed not Anti-Programmed". Pray for these girls.
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2006, 07:27:00 PM
::bump::
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 18, 2006, 07:51:00 PM
Could anon please give me the details for that group.
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2006, 07:55:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 18, 2006, 08:11:00 PM
This thread has links to all the threads, including the pro-wwasp group. So far they have something like 30 members. The other WWASP groups have well over a 1000 so you shouldn't have a hard time finding opinions.
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 19, 2006, 05:00:00 AM
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 19, 2006, 06:03:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on April 19, 2006, 10:14:00 AM
Good luck!
Post by: Anonymous on April 19, 2006, 03:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-19 03:03:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"I was hoping my easy charm and rugged good looks would win them over.
"
You elicit hostility by coming across as a gawking tourist.
We've had legitimate journalists come on here and ask to talk to people before. Universally, they've said right up front who they are, what news organization they work for or, if they freelance, where they plan to submit it.
You don't do any of that.
Some of your word choices sound like program speak, e.g. "uniformly hostile and non-constructive."
People here aren't hostile to the reporters who come on here and are open and honest about who they are and what they're doing. On the contrary, Fornits folk have been open and friendly to such reporters.
It's not them, it's your interpersonal techniques and the impressions you convey with your choices of what to say and not say, and how to word it.
I'm saying this not to be mean to you but because I'm a writer (a published and paid novelist). If you are a legitimate freelancer, I'm trying to help you out by pointing out where you're shooting yourself in the foot trying to gather material.
Some of the best writing advice I've gotten along the way has been some of the stuff I least wanted to hear.
Julie
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2006, 09:41:00 AM
Post by: MightyAardvark on April 21, 2006, 09:45:00 AM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on April 21, 2006, 10:23:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2006, 01:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-21 07:23:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Well, hopefully his parents took him to Hawaii for a little R & R ?!!"
One can dream!! :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2006, 01:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-21 06:45:00, MightyAardvark wrote:
"You people didn't get the sarcasm in that post did you?
"
Who is "you people" ?
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2006, 06:42:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 21, 2006, 08:29:00 PM
Quote
I was at Morava Academy in 1998 until the Czech Government shut in down and we were all shipped to either Spring Creek or Carolina Springs. I went to Spring Creek. I'm mostly interested in other people from Morava and am in touch with several of them. It was way better than SCL.
Didn't the czech govt. shut it down for abuse allegations? And she says SCL was worse ... why won't the US govt. act? Mexico and Jamaica and Czech republic all have... makes you wonder.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 11:24:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-21 17:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"this was posted at myspaceQuoteI was at Morava Academy in 1998 until the Czech Government shut in down and we were all shipped to either Spring Creek or Carolina Springs. I went to Spring Creek. I'm mostly interested in other people from Morava and am in touch with several of them. It was way better than SCL.
Didn't the czech govt. shut it down for abuse allegations? And she says SCL was worse ... why won't the US govt. act? Mexico and Jamaica and Czech republic all have... makes you wonder."
It has to do with constitutional rights and due process. Here, you don't get to shut a place down for "allegations." Remember, an allegation just means someone said it happened. In the US, you have to substantiate the abuse. That's the way it should be.
Read "Come Back" by mother and daughter (Fontaine, I think) who were there at Morava. The staff were all cleared of abuse, and the cop who shut them down (and whose staff abused the kids during the raid and afterward) was arrested later for falsifying evidence. There's also a long account of SCL.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 11:30:00 AM
Quote
In the US, you have to substantiate the abuse. That's the way it should be.
Of course you want it to stay that way, so you can abuse kids out of the eye of the public, and pretend it doesn't happen. All so you can add to your already huge pile of cash. Yes, we know your methods and why you so desperately want to keep them status quo. WWASPS is just like an abusive parent, and the programmies are like the kid's teacher who still believes the kid's constant bruising is from random accidents and other lame excuses. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 11:35:00 AM
Quote
Read "Come Back" by mother and daughter (Fontaine, I think) who were there at Morava. The staff were all cleared of abuse, and the cop who shut them down (and whose staff abused the kids during the raid and afterward) was arrested later for falsifying evidence. There's also a long account of SCL."
Glenda & Steve Roach weren't cleared of abuse when they ran Sunrise Beach and it was shut down by the government, and then WWASP gave them Morava, and it happened all over again.
:wstupid:
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 11:40:00 AM
Quote
Here, you don't get to shut a place down for "allegations." Remember, an allegation just means someone said it happened. In the US, you have to substantiate the abuse. That's the way it should be.
An allegation is substantiated by investigating. Why do you suppose that WWASPS donates MILLIONS of dollars to the political party in power? Why do you think John Ashcroft declined to investigate the allegations? Of course they will remain allegations if everyone refuses to investigate!! That is why they reside in states like Montana, Utah, Nevada -- the least regulated states of all. Surprise, surprise. Mexican authorities invesitaged and shut down Casa which was horribly abusive. WWASPS pays the US authorities to ignore what so many people are saying, they abuse kids!!
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 06:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-22 08:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QuoteHere, you don't get to shut a place down for "allegations." Remember, an allegation just means someone said it happened. In the US, you have to substantiate the abuse. That's the way it should be.
An allegation is substantiated by investigating. Why do you suppose that WWASPS donates MILLIONS of dollars to the political party in power? Why do you think John Ashcroft declined to investigate the allegations? Of course they will remain allegations if everyone refuses to investigate!! That is why they reside in states like Montana, Utah, Nevada -- the least regulated states of all. Surprise, surprise. Mexican authorities invesitaged and shut down Casa which was horribly abusive. WWASPS pays the US authorities to ignore what so many people are saying, they abuse kids!!"
Surely you aren't trying to claim they have never been investigated? You can access the numbers on that in the states' websites. The charges don't get proven because most are not true.
The irony? Ranting and raving like yours helps keep the welfare folks from getting to genuine abuse cases because they're chasing around after false claims. That's Tragic.
Maybe we should have the Mexican authorities (with their sterling record of corruption-free law enforcement and internationally acclaimed human rights) lend a hand. Remember, they shut down five schools (one WWASP and four others), even though no charges were ever substantiated at any of them.
Here's a thought: Check out the facilities in those states that ARE highly regulated, by the health and welfare folks. Look at the slew of substantiated charges of abuse, the incidence of injuries (students and staff) and the number of deaths. Then talk about the wonders of regulation.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 09:12:00 PM
Quote
Then talk about the wonders of regulation.
Why does an organization supposively dedicated to helping teens donating MILLIONS of dollars to political parties who decide what type of regulation and investigation is done? Here's a hint: the one you shill for.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 09:14:00 PM
Quote
The charges don't get proven because most are not true.
No it's because they have paid brainwashed people like you to pretend everything is okay, while you abuse kids in the shadows when nobody is looking. You should be very proud of yourself.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 09:15:00 PM
Quote
Remember, they shut down five schools (one WWASP and four others), even though no charges were ever substantiated at any of them.
You are actually claiming Casa by the Sea was not abusive? Wow-- so you don't consider locking kids in dog cages abusive? Making them lay on cement floor for days? I would hate to be your kid. You are a paid liar obviously, and a poor one at that.
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 09:22:00 PM
Quote
Maybe we should have the Mexican authorities (with their sterling record of corruption-free law enforcement and internationally acclaimed human rights) lend a hand. Remember, they shut down five schools (one WWASP and four others), even though no charges were ever substantiated at any of them.
Yes, bring in the mexican authorities, who are yet uncorrupted by the blood money of WWASPS. I completely agree, bring in anyone who is willing to not look the other way for cash. Please.
In R and R you are to sit with your nose one inch from the wall, with your legs folded under the weight of your body, your arms are to be held behind your back, they cannot touch the floor, your back or each other; your back and neck must remain rigid and straight. Sooner than you might think, your arms fall asleep, your legs fall asleep, there is no blood going to them. They ache so badly it puts you into tears. They throb and just when you think you are going to collapse and endure the consequences, you get a bathroom break. 3 bathroom breaks. 3 meal breaks. Many people say, "If I were you I would have just told them to screw themselves" but I've heard the screaming that comes for R and R sometimes. I never found out what happened that made the girls scream like that but I never wanted to find out.
.....
You'll never know whats it's like to be taken from your life against your will; to be brainwashed, stripped of your personality only to have it replaced by something that somebody created and placed in your head; to be abused mentally, emotionally, and in many cases physically; to be publicly humiliated and broken.
http://www.nospank.net/chambard.htm (http://www.nospank.net/chambard.htm)
Yeah, Casa by the Sea is abusive. You come here and parse words as if you are Donald Rumsfeld talking about torturing prisoners in Guantanamo. There is absolutely no difference. You control the environment completely, and the investigation and oversight, and then claim because abuse allegations cannot be proven, they must not be true. Bullshit - your argument is so transparent you are not fooling even the dimmest of minds (other than your own aparently).
How about the dozens of lawsuits brought against wwasps by parents? More unsubstantiated allegations, right? :wave:
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 09:24:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 22, 2006, 09:27:00 PM
Download it forever while you still can
http://www.mininova.org/tor/262269 (http://www.mininova.org/tor/262269)
The World Wide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP) is the
leading provider of behaviour modification programs for American
teens. At the helm of a company which earns $95 million per year is
Robert Browning Lichfield, a Utah resident and Mormon, who has built
his fortune through the numerous WWASP programs that are located
throughout the world. He is in charge of a virtual empire of schools
where complaints of physical and sexual abuse are allegedly ignored
by American authorities.
The school's popularity feeds on the strong level of concern that
parents have for their delinquent children. Parents attend seminars
where they are led to believe that their children can be changed for
the better and then sign contracts with WWASP which specify it is
allowed to use pepper spray, electronic disablers, mace, mechanical
restraints and handcuffs to enforce good behaviour. The contract also
states that the organisation is not liable for any harm the child
should suffer while in its care. There are also allegations that the
schools lack a comprehensive academic curriculum, operate without a
license from the education ministry and offer student qualifications
that aren't officially recognised in America.
At WWASP, punishments are of a physical nature and designed to inflict
extreme pain on the receiver. Misbehaviour such as talking at
inappropriate moments is punished by relegation to the "dog cage" - a
small boxed area where a student is forced to lie face-down for hours,
days or months, in extreme heat conditions. One female student was
subjected to this punishment for 18 months.
Foreign authorities have been sufficiently concerned with the
activities of the schools to shut down establishments in Western
Samoa, Costa Rica, Mexico and the Czech Republic. In total, six out
of twelve WWASP schools have closed amidst allegations of child abuse.
An increasing number of parents who are shocked at the physical and
emotional scars borne by their returning children have started to
speak out against WWASP, under the threat of lawsuits. The film
follows the progress of a defamation suit that WWASP brought against
single mother, Sue Scheff, who set up a website detailing her
objections to the way her son was treated in Tranquility Bay, Jamaica.
The program claims that the profitability of WWASP goes a long way to
explaining why American authorities have not mounted investigations
into its activities. An examination of personal finances of school
executives, such as Robert Browning Lichfield, indicates that they are
amongst the biggest donors to the Republican Party and gave over
$1 million in political donations in 2002-2004 and also fund the
missionary work of the Mormon movement
Post by: Badpuppy on April 23, 2006, 12:10:00 AM
They admit to punishing masturbation.
New York attorney general called one their programs "the largest education fraud in New York state history." They admit to pepper spraying kids on daily basis. Their program in Jamaica uses punishment UNACCEPTED in the civilized world.
They have put kids in freezing cold isolation cells for months at a time. Regardless of having changed their practice due to bad publicity the fact that they would ever do this to a child is testament to their total lack of conscience, dispicably ammoral character, and unmitigated greed. The fact that you would defend these child torturers is temstament to yours.
Post by: Anonymous on April 23, 2006, 11:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-22 21:10:00, Badpuppy wrote:
"They admit that they use troubled minors in their care to give consequences to other troubled minors. These consequences result in the lengthening of incarceration and loss of priviliges. There is no prison in America that will allow inmates to have any part of a decison that lenghtens the stay of another inmate, let alone give a troubled child that kind of power.
They admit to punishing masturbation.
New York attorney general called one their programs "the largest education fraud in New York state history." They admit to pepper spraying kids on daily basis. Their program in Jamaica uses punishment UNACCEPTED in the civilized world.
They have put kids in freezing cold isolation cells for months at a time. Regardless of having changed their practice due to bad publicity the fact that they would ever do this to a child is testament to their total lack of conscience, dispicably ammoral character, and unmitigated greed. The fact that you would defend these child torturers is temstament to yours."
Don't fall off that soap box, friend!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2006, 12:00:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-23 20:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
Don't fall off that soap box, friend!
:rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2006, 02:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-22 21:10:00, Badpuppy wrote:
"They admit that they use troubled minors in their care to give consequences to other troubled minors. These consequences result in the lengthening of incarceration and loss of priviliges. There is no prison in America that will allow inmates to have any part of a decison that lenghtens the stay of another inmate, let alone give a troubled child that kind of power.
They admit to punishing masturbation.
New York attorney general called one their programs "the largest education fraud in New York state history." They admit to pepper spraying kids on daily basis. Their program in Jamaica uses punishment UNACCEPTED in the civilized world.
They have put kids in freezing cold isolation cells for months at a time. Regardless of having changed their practice due to bad publicity the fact that they would ever do this to a child is testament to their total lack of conscience, dispicably ammoral character, and unmitigated greed. The fact that you would defend these child torturers is temstament to yours."
You are spot on my friend!
Post by: Ashley's Mom on April 24, 2006, 02:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-21 15:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You'll probably never know, 'cause if he has returned to any of his old ways and isn't the wonderful, but misunderstood boy his girlfriend painted him to be, she and her mother will never come back here telling you. And....the aunts, if ready to move on and get back to life without turmoil, won't want to come back and tell you either, even it would be an "I told you so!""
Sorry I haven't posted in a long time. There has just been a lot going on. Alex is doing great. He has a job during the day and is going to night school to get his diploma. His court date has been rescheduled to June 12, 2006, so it continues to be a waiting game. He is still living with us and has not "returned to any of his old ways".
Post by: Anonymous on April 24, 2006, 05:40:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on April 25, 2006, 11:56:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-24 11:22:00, Ashley's Mom wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-04-21 15:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You'll probably never know, 'cause if he has returned to any of his old ways and isn't the wonderful, but misunderstood boy his girlfriend painted him to be, she and her mother will never come back here telling you. And....the aunts, if ready to move on and get back to life without turmoil, won't want to come back and tell you either, even it would be an "I told you so!""
Sorry I haven't posted in a long time. There has just been a lot going on. Alex is doing great. He has a job during the day and is going to night school to get his diploma. His court date has been rescheduled to June 12, 2006, so it continues to be a waiting game. He is still living with us and has not "returned to any of his old ways". "
Tell him all these people he doesn't know, who think *nobody* should be sent where he was, are glad for him that he's out and doing well.
It's not like it matters what we think of him, but if it had happened to me, I would take comfort knowing that a lot of people thought what happened to me was wrong.
The outpatient care he wanted would have worked as well or better without the added trauma of being sent away, and his progress at getting on with his life in no way makes him a poster child for those SOB's.
(We know the outpatient care would have worked as well or better because community based care like that has a very good track record, where research shows behavior mod. facilities just don't work.)
I'm sure he loves his parents, but sometimes people we love dearly drive us up a wall if we try to live under the same roof with them. Adolescence is known to trigger this for a lot of people. It's that evolutionary instinct to jump out of the nest and fly.
I'm sure he loves his parents, but not living under the same roof as them may be a large factor in his recovery. I've known all kinds of kids who miraculously started getting their lives together as soon as they moved out from living with their parents. Love their parents? Sure, lots. Able to live under the same roof without going nuts? Not so much.
Julie
Post by: AtomicAnt on April 25, 2006, 11:45:00 PM
Quote
Maybe we should have the Mexican authorities (with their sterling record of corruption-free law enforcement and internationally acclaimed human rights) lend a hand. Remember, they shut down five schools (one WWASP and four others), even though no charges were ever substantiated at any of them.
Having seen the photographs of children chained inside dog cages, under the hot desert sun, taken by Mexican police, I can only ask, what more could possible be required to 'substantiate' the charges? That is enough to convince to me that the facility was rightly closed and those responsible should have prosecuted.
Perhaps it is due the the 'sterling reputation' of the Mexican Police that these criminals escaped prosecution.
Post by: AtomicAnt on April 25, 2006, 11:46:00 PM
Quote
Maybe we should have the Mexican authorities (with their sterling record of corruption-free law enforcement and internationally acclaimed human rights) lend a hand. Remember, they shut down five schools (one WWASP and four others), even though no charges were ever substantiated at any of them.
Having seen the photographs of children chained inside dog cages, under the hot desert sun, taken by Mexican police, I can only ask, what more could possible be required to 'substantiate' the charges? That is enough to convince to me that the facility was rightly closed and those responsible should have prosecuted.
Perhaps it is due the the 'sterling reputation' of the Mexican Police that these criminals escaped prosecution.
Post by: AtomicAnt on April 25, 2006, 11:46:00 PM
Quote
Maybe we should have the Mexican authorities (with their sterling record of corruption-free law enforcement and internationally acclaimed human rights) lend a hand. Remember, they shut down five schools (one WWASP and four others), even though no charges were ever substantiated at any of them.
Having seen the photographs of children chained inside dog cages, under the hot desert sun, taken by Mexican police, I can only ask, what more could possibly be required to 'substantiate' the charges? That is enough to convince to me that the facility was rightly closed and those responsible should have been prosecuted.
Perhaps it is due the the 'sterling reputation' of the Mexican Police that these criminals escaped prosecution.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-04-25 20:47 ]
Post by: Anonymous on April 28, 2006, 07:44:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on April 28, 2006, 08:57:00 AM
Post by: Artemis on April 28, 2006, 09:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-28 04:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
At home he would be watch a lot more then there. That is why he chooses to stay there. "
Gee, you're gonna have to give me some time to mull this over. An 18 year old who was just sent away to what is arguably an abusive place, be it psychologically or physically, doesn't want to return to the people that sent him there, still want him to be there but would settle for him to return home to be "watched" and closely monitored. Hmmmmm. That's a toughie.
Here comes the rest of it. You'll be waiting and watching....ready to throw your hands up in the air, pounce on the first mis-step as proof that it was a mistake for him to leave, you were right, oh dear god he's gonna be deadinsaneorinjail now. ::noway:: etc. etc. etc.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on April 28, 2006, 10:18:00 AM
Whatever, Alex will be fine. He might have a occasional screw up, but we all do. Which one of you out there dares says you're perfect?!!
That's what I thought!
Post by: Shlee on April 29, 2006, 12:44:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-28 04:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If he returned to his old ways she wouldn't know she didn't know about his or her own daughters old ways before like she said she is busy. That is why he is there and not at home. At home he would be watch a lot more then there. That is why he chooses to stay there. "
Wow, I must say, it's been awhile since I've been on here, let alone time to be on the internet in general. Everything is going exceptionally well. Work, school, and then the occasional movie/relaxation time. Alex is doing well, in the hopes of getting a better job than Tim Horton's. But hey, atleast he's in the working force.
It's comments like those that make me shake my head and laugh. Keep living in that mentality. It will get you nowhere, while Alex is getting somewhere. Keep doubting his capabilities, he'll be something.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on May 01, 2006, 10:23:00 AM
Alex I know you read this. Call if you would like to talk about this post. I will be talking to you soon. I have my feelings love ya! Fun Cop
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2006, 10:53:00 AM
Post by: The Liger on May 01, 2006, 04:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-01 07:23:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"It is I the Bad Aunt that posted that. Sorry if you don't like my post. I am very proud of Alex. I also believe he will be successes full in time with some speed bumps in his path. The point of the post was that your mom may not see all the signs if things may start to happen again. Look how long you kept the wool over her eyes it took me telling her. It said NOTHING AGAINST ALEX. Nice how you put a twist on it. He would be successful living at home also. It may even be easier for him. It is not you and your household that is helping or pushing him in that direction.
Alex I know you read this. Call if you would like to talk about this post. I will be talking to you soon. I have my feelings love ya! Fun Cop"
I suppose it must be hard to admit that he could possibly do well without mommy and daddy breathing down his neck. So you have to cast doubt on whether he is really doing well, and how long it is going to last. Maybe you people were just wrong.
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2006, 04:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2006, 07:00:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on May 01, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-01 16:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"He is in a better place than SCL."
Now THAT we can all agree on.
In my opinion, the program scares families and even the teens into believing that they need several more years of parenting. They also recommend that parenting be delivered as an invasive, harsh, threatening, cold dictatorship. Alex is almost 18. He's an adult, and he's acting like one.
Post by: Shlee on May 02, 2006, 04:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-01 07:23:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"It is I the Bad Aunt that posted that. Sorry if you don't like my post. I am very proud of Alex. I also believe he will be successes full in time with some speed bumps in his path. The point of the post was that your mom may not see all the signs if things may start to happen again. Look how long you kept the wool over her eyes it took me telling her. It said NOTHING AGAINST ALEX. Nice how you put a twist on it. He would be successful living at home also. It may even be easier for him. It is not you and your household that is helping or pushing him in that direction.
Alex I know you read this. Call if you would like to talk about this post. I will be talking to you soon. I have my feelings love ya! Fun Cop"
I'm sorry, I try to steer clear of arguements on this site, and if what I say starts one then, oh well. I will tell you right now, I had my mother fooled for probably a whole 6 months. Now, how long did Alex have his parents and family, including you, fooled? I seem to remember the word YEARS in the time frame somewhere...
And don't say that I'm bashing Alex or his family, or anyone for that matter. I just happen to be stating a fact. I'm quite tired of you trying to make it out like we brainwash Alex into everything he says or does. Remember, he is almost an ADULT. Free to make his own choices. I don't understand how none of you can accept that.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on May 02, 2006, 04:40:00 PM
Just wondering............
Post by: Anonymous on May 02, 2006, 10:26:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 05:37:00 PM
One of my students was sent there by his parents. the dad informed me he was specifically looking at out of state placements were the laws were less strict and state supervision was not enforced. This is the same dad who told me that he had to use "physical force" on his adopted son for "looking mean" at the mom. (Knowing these two I would have done more than look mean!)
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 05:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on May 03, 2006, 06:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-02 19:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"why? R U feeling unappreciated? Need a pat on the back?"
That's right! Puhleese!!! You're an idiot! Umm......it's been over a month, I was just curious.
I feel like you are comparing me to my grandparents who get their feathers ruffled if I don't write them a thank you note within a weeks time of my b-day/christmas check!
Not at all, I wanted to know if he was touched by the fact so many fought for his release. or if he would have been happier just left alone.
Post by: Troll Control on May 03, 2006, 06:36:00 PM
Quote
One of my students was sent there by his parents. the dad informed me he was specifically looking at out of state placements were the laws were less strict and state supervision was not enforced. This is the same dad who told me that he had to use "physical force" on his adopted son for "looking mean" at the mom.
You know, I'd like to be shocked or outraged at this, but I just can't be because it's all too common and I just can't be angry that many hours in a day. I have not the energy.
It is this type of Bozo parent who fills the the system with adopted kids because they got a case of "buyers remorse." They're not a pair of slacks that can be returned because you don't like them when you get them home for chrissakes.
Until these children are no longer objectified and have constitutional rights and an intellectual solution is applied to an intellectual problem, these shitholes will be crammed full because of morons like this father.
Post by: CaughtInTheMiddle on May 03, 2006, 07:58:00 PM
Quote
I'm sorry, I try to steer clear of arguements on this site, and if what I say starts one then, oh well.
You started one with this forum and the childish demented lie about Alex trying to jump over a bridge to be able to talk to you. Then your mother makes something up about you dreaming about it. OMG even my 3 year old could have come up with something better then that. This from an ADULT see not all ADULTS are the smartest people. At some point in time don't you think you should just admit when you have lied. Oh I see it is ok for you but not anybody else. It is ok for you to put shit about his family all over the net but if something is said to you then you are owed an apology ::puke:: ask Alex about that he will know and you probably know what I am talking about.
Quote
I will tell you right now, I had my mother fooled for probably a whole 6 months. Now, how long did Alex have his parents and family, including you, fooled? I seem to remember the word YEARS in the time frame somewhere...
Please Ashley I am not that easy. This is the last you will hear from me on this site. 6 months is all you will admit to because that is what you had to fess up to because of getting caught. We all make mistakes remember first part is admitting them. Not only the portion you wont.
If I didn't tell your mother she would have not known unless Alex told her how horrible would that have been for him. Nice girlfriend you are. I am sure you would have told her so he didn't have to. Easy to say now. Now I wish I didn't.
Quote
And don't say that I'm bashing Alex or his family, or anyone for that matter. I just happen to be stating a fact. I'm quite tired of you trying to make it out like we brainwash Alex into everything he says or does. Remember, he is almost an ADULT. Free to make his own choices. I don't understand how none of you can accept that."
The Fact... why? because you say they are. Whatever you say. Your getting tired? It isn't all about you Ashley look around there are more people involved. So when Alex is an ADULT is he moving out? You act like when he turns 18 it is going to be some big deal or something like all of a sudden he will have a great job a house make enough money to marry you and start a ADULT life. It doesn't quit work that way dear. He could do everything he is doing there at his parents house also where he should be. By the
way he is doing it. HIM not you. I am proud of HIM. What ever decision he makes I owe HIM accountable for even if HE chooses to take his advise from YOU. He is his own person.
[ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-05-03 17:05 ]
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on May 03, 2006, 08:10:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 08:55:00 PM
Ashley, you didn't deserve any of that. You also shouldn't have to see your mom bashed, either. Remember, people, this girl is mature but she's still a teen in high school. Let's have some standard for decency.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on May 03, 2006, 08:56:00 PM
Post by: Ashley's Mom on May 04, 2006, 09:50:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-05-03 16:58:00, CaughtInTheMiddle wrote:
"Quote
I'm sorry, I try to steer clear of arguements on this site, and if what I say starts one then, oh well.
You started one with this forum and the childish demented lie about Alex trying to jump over a bridge to be able to talk to you. Then your mother makes something up about you dreaming about it. OMG even my 3 year old could have come up with something better then that. This from an ADULT see not all ADULTS are the smartest people. At some point in time don't you think you should just admit when you have lied. Oh I see it is ok for you but not anybody else. It is ok for you to put shit about his family all over the net but if something is said to you then you are owed an apology ::puke:: ask Alex about that he will know and you probably know what I am talking about.Quote
I will tell you right now, I had my mother fooled for probably a whole 6 months. Now, how long did Alex have his parents and family, including you, fooled? I seem to remember the word YEARS in the time frame somewhere...
Please Ashley I am not that easy. This is the last you will hear from me on this site. 6 months is all you will admit to because that is what you had to fess up to because of getting caught. We all make mistakes remember first part is admitting them. Not only the portion you wont.
If I didn't tell your mother she would have not known unless Alex told her how horrible would that have been for him. Nice girlfriend you are. I am sure you would have told her so he didn't have to. Easy to say now. Now I wish I didn't.Quote
And don't say that I'm bashing Alex or his family, or anyone for that matter. I just happen to be stating a fact. I'm quite tired of you trying to make it out like we brainwash Alex into everything he says or does. Remember, he is almost an ADULT. Free to make his own choices. I don't understand how none of you can accept that."
The Fact... why? because you say they are. Whatever you say. Your getting tired? It isn't all about you Ashley look around there are more people involved. So when Alex is an ADULT is he moving out? You act like when he turns 18 it is going to be some big deal or something like all of a sudden he will have a great job a house make enough money to marry you and start a ADULT life. It doesn't quit work that way dear. He could do everything he is doing there at his parents house also where he should be. By the
way he is doing it. HIM not you. I am proud of HIM. What ever decision he makes I owe HIM accountable for even if HE chooses to take his advise from YOU. He is his own person.
[ This Message was edited by: CaughtInTheMiddle on 2006-05-03 17:05 ]"
Pam,
This is just getting completely out of control all over again! Alex has been home for two months now, and I think it is time for all the of this to come to an end. He is doing good for himself, if you don't want to give us any credit for that, so be it. We are just trying to help Alex along so he can become independent as a young adult. Maybe he would have done just as well at home, but he chose where he wanted to be. I didn't "lie" about Ashley dreaming up the bridge incident, I was just trying to make some sense of the "story" since she woke up telling me this at 5:00am. Did she make it up? I don't know, but I believed her since he was not emotionally stable for some time.
The forum was started to get some advice/feedback after reading up on the "program" he was sent to. It was not started to insult or start a war between the families.
We don't know where this will go in the future. All we know right now is Alex wants to better himself, get his diploma, have a decent job, and have his own place. These are some pretty solid goals for a young adult, and I believe he will accomplish them, with or without his families support.
I am done arguing with you. This is not going to help the situation at all. All of this is very unhealthy for both Alex and Ashley. Good day!
Leslie
Post by: Anonymous on May 04, 2006, 02:51:00 PM
I've been avoiding looking at/posting on this sight for two months out of fear of what i might find. No,i have not read all of it and I dont think i ever will.
No,i most certainly would not have been happy just sitting at SCL, and i nearly peed my pants when i was told i was coming home. So to all those that did send letters i can't expess enough thanks in this little box.
This site was started to help get information about the facility i was at. Information that probably would have been useful before my getting sent there. It didn't end there as you all know.The "school" monitors this webite quite closely, of course and from there my parents were informed about it and so on. It really is a shame that it turned out to be a battlefield more as opposed to a source of information. If only more parents discovered ths site before sending their children there maybe it wouldn't occur as often as it does. There are too many kids there that really don't deserve to be isolated from society. One of them was Nick Thomas. The boy who froze to death with his mother in those goddamn mountains. From everything i heard from him and others a SCL he most certainly was not an "outofcontrol teen". That makes three lifes taken by that place i you count the suicide last year.
but thats all. Like i said this is the end. Thank you to EVERYBODY for caring about me, but I won't let this go on any longer. Aunt Pam if you feel so strongly about something and I want you to vent call me or call my mom, but all you do when you post is cause destruction and i won't let it go on any longer.
Love , Alex.
Post by: StepLeft on May 04, 2006, 07:58:00 PM
I have been reading this site from the beginning.
I understand why a lot of people here are on Ashley and Leslie's side. With them being on our side saving Alex someone that was where we were years ago. What we would have loved to happen to us. I have spent years in therapy. I have learned I believe a lot here and there. My parents went through a lot of emotions and therapy also. They were never sure with any choice they made in my life was the right choice with me or any of us kids was right or not. In some ways they wish they never would have sent me and in some I think they still believe it is what they had to do at the time. I am ok with that now. We all agree now that place should be there but these place need to be closed and schools should be regulated and these seminars should be changed to focus more on self help. I did need a wake up call. For sure. But these parents that put these 12 year olds and kids that sit there for years I am not getting started.. I was luckier then a lot of you. I was only there a short time. It is easy for us to say don't send your kid there we have been there. Sounds like His parents are trying I believe Ashley or her mom said they are going to Therapy with Alex. There is a lot we don't see that goes on behind the seen's we forget about. We should try to be far. Good luck to all
God Bless
http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/vi ... t=90&Sort= (http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/viewtopic.phpmode=viewtopic&topic=12879&forum=44&start=90&Sort=)
Quote
(posted 12-16-2005)
Unfortunately the bridge incident is true. He told us himself, and so did the escort. The vadalism was quite obviously someone else considering Ashley worked that night and then was home with her mother and father all night. Granted the dealer worked with Ashley, but Alex met him all on his own.
Quote
I have a question. Did you actually speak with the escort service or did you hear this from your daughter?"
Quote
Yes, his name was Russ, from 2nd Chance Transport Service.
Post by: Anonymous on July 30, 2006, 06:34:06 PM
Post by: Shlee on September 05, 2006, 11:30:05 AM
~Shlee
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on September 05, 2006, 12:35:52 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2006, 05:11:36 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Be very concerned for his safety and well being. A student succesfully committed suicide there by hanging herself. If he is suicidal, he belongs in a psychiatric setting, not a 'behavior modification' camp.
Because he is 17 1/2, he can wait out his time until he turns 18, which he will most likely do. He is at a lower risk of brainwashing than the younger students, because he has a 'hope' to look forward to due to his age. He will not receive any help at SCL, only discipline, humiliation, and quite possibly physical and emotional abuse. He sounds like the type that might spend time up in the hobbit, and in worksheets, for not complying with the program.
When he turns 18 and wishes to leave the program is when you can REALLY help. The program (via his parents) will offer an exit plan ranging from nothing but the clothes on his back, to possibly some cash and a ride to the closest town. Either way, this is when you can really help him. Otherwise, he will be pressured by scare tactics to stay in the 18 year old program. It is scary to face walking down the street into homelessness at 18!
Somehow, I want you to get letters into him. This will only usually happen if his parents allow this. The best way is to slip in your letters with their letters, because they write a code on the letter or something, or put a sticker on it, I'm not positive. In that letter instruct him to keep quiet about you helping him after he leaves to prevent any actions against you. Give him your phone number and tell him you will wait for his call on his 18th birthday, and you will wire him money and a train ticket, etc. This will give him immense hope, and he will certainly feel better about the future. This is one idea at least. At the very least, it might keep him from hurting himself or running.
You say he escaped his transport, went up on a bridge and threatened suicide, so he should have been placed under a 72 hour watch at a psychiatric facility. Not shipped to a private teen prison with the occasional large group brainwash session to boot. It's crazy his parents believe this place is the best for him... utterly insane.
It reminds me very much of my own situation. Unfortunately, he is in for a shitty experience, especially because he sounds like the type which will reject the program's flawed ideology. At least he will remain 'himself', but he will get some major shit for 'not working the program' and such. He can just wait his time out, but the damage done to him, his family, and everyone who knew him will already be done. This is a fucked up situation for all involved... accept WWASP, they are making out just fine.
Good luck.
Post by: Anonymous on September 19, 2006, 05:24:28 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 19, 2006, 05:33:25 PM
Post by: MightyAardvark on September 20, 2006, 04:44:54 AM
Post by: Covergaard on September 21, 2006, 04:18:48 AM
Happy to see that you are and in a condition so you can write, which as I understand is a luxury not all survivors can enjoy.
Feel free to inform us if you like what the outcome of the case that started it all, fell out to.
Did the court recognize that you had done some harsh prison time although the correction institution was not approved by the state and did they give you credit for the time served or did they just ignore your torments and imposed a sentence as nothing was happened?
I hope the best for you in the future.
Post by: Anonymous on September 29, 2006, 07:12:57 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 29, 2006, 07:51:48 PM
Post by: Anonymous on September 30, 2006, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Why the hell not?? Kids don't deserve no goddamn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! If mine ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out to the woodshed and tear up their uppity little asses!
What is it with you and "niggers"? Ya got some kind of a complex, dumb ass? You sound like a half-witted fool.