Ivy Ridge/WWASPS Sensationalized News Reports

[Anonymous]

Antigen - you are twisting what I wrote.  Ever consider being a newspaper journalist?  

No, of course I don't think it's okay to be physically or emotionally abused.  Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive.  

What I'm saying is that, for example, a 15 year old who has had control of the home, the parents, abusing them emotionally, doing whatever they wanted, absolutely would think they were being emotionally tortured because they couldn't leave and had to learn the world doesn't revolve around their every whim destructive or not.  I truly believe they think they are being emotionally abused because I was in a similar situation as a teen.  

I believe they think they are being abused because they are in a place where they are asked by their peers and their therapist, their parents and others in their family to take a look at what got them there in the first place.
They are asked to take responsibility for "THEIR" actions and instead want to blame everyone around them for what got them there.  

I don't know of a single parent were the motivation was to "get rid" of their kid and pay out of pocket what monetarily for adds up to a new car.   I look at it as an investment in a kid's life.  The old car can always be replaced later.
 
Go ahead and blame others for what you all say never happened (life destructive behavior.)  One day you will look back, and you will at some point, and see what motivated your parents to give you this gift. I can only say this about WWASPS as I have zero experience with the other programs out there.  

As for why WWASPS is in the news a lot.  I see most of it being instigated by the competitors.  Would the competitors say anything GOOD?  NOT! Would they want to bring WWASPS down?  YES!
I suspect that the Aspen group schools could very well have the same allegations, so why are they in the news with good stuff being said about them?  Because they are successful in working with kids from what I know of them, just different. That doesn't mean the allegations aren't the same.  They are, almost word for word.    

The riot at Ivy Ridge is the only riot I know about in a WWASPS program in the 6 years I've been around that wasn't instigated by Costa Rican or Mexican federales.  THe IRA riot was handled in a very short period of time.  That is newsworthy and true.  What else am I missing since you (Antigen) think it happens all the time?
 

PHX

[Anonymous]

Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive.  

That's a lie.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-21 15:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Antigen - you are twisting what I wrote.  Ever consider being a newspaper journalist?  

I don't think I am.

No, of course I don't think it's okay to be physically or emotionally abused.  Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive.  

I'm sure you believe that. None the less it's false.

What I'm saying is that, for example, a 15 year old who has had control of the home, the parents, abusing them emotionally, doing whatever they wanted, absolutely would think they were being emotionally tortured because they couldn't leave and had to learn the world doesn't revolve around their every whim destructive or not.  I truly believe they think they are being emotionally abused because I was in a similar situation as a teen.  

By the same token, a normal kid who's been blessed w/ idiots for parents would certainly consider a forced strip search to be abusive.

And that's just the initiation. How about reading private journal entries out loud in front of all the other kids? Or coercing false confessions from the kid and sending them along to mom-n-pop?

Any sane person would consider the normal, day to day operation of these programs to be quite abusive.

I believe they think they are being abused because they are in a place where they are asked by their peers and their therapist, their parents and others in their family to take a look at what got them there in the first place.

I think they think they're being abused because they're forced to denounce themselves as whatever the untrained staff and other unfortunate teenagers accuse them of. And if they don't, they never go home.

I was in a similar situation as a kid. Believe me, it sucked!

They are asked to take responsibility for "THEIR" actions and instead want to blame everyone around them for what got them there.  

No, they're not asked anything. You know that. They're told what they are, what they've done, who they are and required to agree. That's not the same as taking responsibility for one's actions. That's taking the blame for someone else's highly unpleasant imagination.

I don't know of a single parent were the motivation was to "get rid" of their kid and pay out of pocket what monetarily for adds up to a new car.   I look at it as an investment in a kid's life.  The old car can always be replaced later.

Sure, that's what they say. But people manage to justify and rationalize all sorts of messed up things. Not all Program parents are just trying to get rid of their kids. But I have run into a few where it was more than obvious. I know a few kids who's parents actually moved and left no forwarding address while the kids were in the programs. Just plain out abandoned them.

But most are just delusional about your newage god-in-a-bottle cure for all their parenting worries, no matter how trivial or skewed.

Go ahead and blame others for what you all say never happened (life destructive behavior.)  One day you will look back, and you will at some point, and see what motivated your parents to give you this gift. I can only say this about WWASPS as I have zero experience with the other programs out there.  

Dude! I'm 40 years old! I have kids older than I was when I went into a program. How long does this take to start working? I understand very well what motivated my parents to put me in the Program. And I understand why you advocate it. It's just that you lack the perspective of the kid and also that of a parent who did not ship her troublesome teenager off.

As for why WWASPS is in the news a lot.  I see most of it being instigated by the competitors.

You guys just keep on telling yourselves that, but nobody else believes it. Are the governments of Mexico, Czeck Republic, Costa Rica and New York all somehow in competition w/ WWASP? The only competition I can' think of that you'd be refering to here would be Sue Scheff. In case you haven't kept abrest of current events, Sue is not exactly our friend anymore. Not since we started to find out about Whitmore and New Horizons.

You're absolutely tripping your brains out on this one. I don't think there's a single quote from any competition in any of the news on the Ivy Ridge Riot or Thayer or a whole lot of the other well publicized stories. Hell, this goes back to like 1998 when 48 Hours did that early expose. You think CBS is secretly running teen gulags or something?

I suspect that the Aspen group schools could very well have the same allegations, so why are they in the news with good stuff being said about them?  Because they are successful in working with kids from what I know of them, just different. That doesn't mean the allegations aren't the same.  They are, almost word for word.    

Maybe Aspen is not quite so over the top as to generate the kind of stories WWASP does. I don't know. There's a little bit about them posted around here. Hopefully we'll get more info.

The riot at Ivy Ridge is the only riot I know about in a WWASPS program in the 6 years I've been around that wasn't instigated by Costa Rican or Mexican federales.  

Do you hear yourself? Isn't it a little paranoid to think the authorities are all against you like that? Doesn't WWASP get the results they intended? How come when a kid lands in a program, they definitely, 100% deserve it but when WWASP gets a spankin' in the media, it's always someone else's fault?

THe IRA riot was handled in a very short period of time.  That is newsworthy and true.  What else am I missing since you (Antigen) think it happens all the time?

PHX"

You probably know more than I do. I would imagine it doesn't always make the news. I know of several riots in Straight locations that never got any ink at all. They were able to put a lid on it w/o outside help, so no one outside ever knew about it.

I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist

[BuzzKill]

//Being in a WWASPS program, is not physically abusive nor emotionally abusive. //

Sure it is. It is always emotionally abusive and often physically abusive. Do you not think it emotionally abusive to prohibit conversation for months and months? Did you know lower level kids are not allowed to Talk? Do you realize how long some kids remain on the lower levels? This is not a day or two of holding one's tongue. This is months of what amounts to isolation in a crowd.
And, I am sure you Think you know how restraint is used; but if you don't think it abusive, then you do Not know - or, your one cold and callous brute.
These are just a couple of the methods used in the program that are abusive - there's more.

// I believe they think they are being abused because they are in a place where they are asked by their peers and their therapist, their parents and others in their family to take a look at what got them there in the first place.
They are asked to take responsibility for "THEIR" actions and instead want to blame everyone around them for what got them there. //

This is the crap and pabulum they feed you to keep you satisfied and manageable.
Yes, kids, and people in general, tend to confuse privilege with necessity; but the lack of sanitation, and the crowding, and the very poor diet, are not cutting back on privileges - but necessities.  
I recall how when ever a parent on the BBS voiced concern about some of the program's stark and rigid methods, they were reminded it was the kid who put themselves there. "He/She put themselves there"  is a common refrain. I think they teach this to the parents, in much the same manner as the pigs taught the sheep to chant ,"four legs good - two legs better!" in Orwell's Animal Farm. So much of the program speak seems like this - mindless repeating of words that only serve to keep people under control.


// I don't know of a single parent were the motivation was to "get rid" of their kid and pay out of pocket what monetarily for adds up to a new car. I look at it as an investment in a kid's life. The old car can always be replaced later. //

I don't know any either - but you can be sure they do exist. Keep in mind, for some people, the price of a new car is pocket change. The cost is irrelevant to such people.
But I agree, Most are looking for help with a child they love and they think they found an answer. In My Opinion, They think this partly due to the desperation dulling their ability to think clearly;  some slick marketing and some out right fraud.

// As for why WWASPS is in the news a lot. I see most of it being instigated by the competitors. //

This is just to silly to be believed. Antigen gave you a good reply - I hope you'll read it over several times and let it sink in.

// The riot at Ivy Ridge is the only riot I know about in a WWASPS program in the 6 years I've been around that wasn't instigated by Costa Rican or Mexican federales. //

Now, WHY would the MX or Costa Rican officials want to start a riot?  Hummm? Come on now - thats just goofy. But in light of the fact the governments were beginning an investigation, there might be motive for others to have a little rioting take place. Things get lost and destroyed in riots. If a riot was instigated, as you say, I do Not think logic points to the Federales . . . No, I think it points off in another direction altogether.
But apart from instigation, (Which there is no indication of at Ivy Ridge or any were else for that matter) it is pretty well understood what kind of conditions cause rioting  - and I know I would not be happy about paying thousands of dollars a month, to house and educate my child in under such conditions.

[Anonymous]

While googling my mother's name I come accross this (yes, I was bored).  I'm the editorial's author's son, and my sister was in the program (well yeah you can see that from the letter).  She graduated a short while ago, and she's living at home now.

My sister was in the program for about 1.5 years.  Graduating from the program, I can't really say she's been brainwashed in any way.  Her personality remains unchanged; she's the same person that she was before minus the tantrums and running away.  She still speaks her mind, is still the same ambitious girl, and still has occasional arguments with our mother.

Another idea that seems to be in some of your heads is that the parents are just trying to get rid of their kids.  I'm not saying that isn't the case for some, the only program parents that I've met are those who are actually trying to work the program with their kids.  Obviously they're not expieriencing it 24/7 like the students, but they try their best.  For most of the program parents I met, the tuition of these schools is not merely pocket change; most of them (that I have met) had to go through a lot to obtain the financial means of sending their children to this school.

I can see why many wouldn't like the program; I don't know what I would do if I had so many things I take for granted taken away from me (i.e. permission to speak).  I doubt the purpose of this is to simply emotionally abuse the studnets, but rather to give them an environment completely opposite of what they're used to.  They put them in an environment where they have no priviledges, and they work up from there.

I'm not saying the program is perfect, and I'm not saying all their ideas and practices work all the time.  I'm not saying people who didn't enjoy the program are just lying about any kind of abuses to give it a bad name.  I'm just saying what I've observed.

//"He/She put themselves there" is a common refrain. I think they teach this to the parents//
Actually, the parent seminars also put acountability on the parents too.  I don't know if it used to be, but it's not just a blame-the-kid program.

//Kids who have graduated the program have already been brainwashed to believe the program has saved their lives nad that it is not abusive. Therefore, their opinion doesn't really mean much, because it is not based on an objective consideration of facts.//
That sounds like a very cheap attempt at pointing out fallacies in opposing arguments.  It's pretty easy to win the argument when everyone opposing you is either brainwashed or threatened to not tell the truth, eh?

[Anonymous]

^ Same poster as above.

I just realized this is a pretty old thread, so don't get mad at me for bumping it.

[trnsz]

Davie, FL, huh?

I'm about a 3 minute ride from there.

You can read my thread at http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12812&forum=44 and my desperate plea for the mother of the girl in this thread (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=12820&forum=9&5) to contact me.  I haven't slept but I'm going stay up waiting.  That is how strongly I feel against the programs in all but the most dire consequences - and even then I'd never recommend a WWASPS program.

Maybe your kids were helped by the program, and if so, that is fantastic.  Unfortunatey, I really believe the damage might not be apparent for many years, possibly many decades to come.

I know my parents, and parents in general.  You might disagree with everything I have to say, and you will always defend your decision as I'm sure you have done what you think is right.  But maybe you'll remember reading this, and if my suspicions are correct, in a few years from now, you'll be dealing with bigger things than you bargained for!

Maybe you (or your son that posted here) want to talk over coffee or something one day?  Knowing other program(-ed) parents, probably not.

[Anonymous]

The son again

Maybe you (or your son that posted here) want to talk over coffee or something one day?  Knowing other program(-ed) parents, probably not.

I doubt she's reading the thread though since the post was just quoted from an editorial, and not actually posted by the author.  Or at leaset that's how it seems.

I'm not sure about my mother, but I can talk.  I'm living out of town at the moment for school, but you can still IM me at Jimiisama on AIM or Yahoo or at [email protected] on MSN if you'd like.

[Anonymous]

***Actually, the parent seminars also put acountability on the parents too. I don't know if it used to be, but it's not just a blame-the-kid program.

Well you got the rhetoric down.
What I understand is that the parents are encouraged to take a vacation and send a letter stating what a good time they're having without their kid.

So, both parties need to be 'accountable' for the difficulties...  but one is rewarded with a vacation and the other is punished with placement in teen gulag warehouse?

The scales will never balance in program-land.

[Anonymous]

I think all of this debate still misses the point about WWASPS and programs. I read notes about efficacy, abuse, and coercion but few seem to really get to the heart of what makes these programs unethical and even evil. It is really about dissent.
 
 I am old enough to remember the youth movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s. Civil Rights, Womens' Rights, Gay Rights, and an end to a war came about because young people rebelled against the established adult order. Many positive changes were made; not the least of which is the greater transparency that the government and large corporations and other organizations must now operate under. The slogans included "Question Authority."

 The point here is the combination of young people and dissent. What makes all these programs wrong is the simple fact that they allow no dissent. In this way, they are no different than Soviet or Communist China style re-education camps.

 What I see happening in these programs and the country as a whole is growing intolerance towards dissenting youth. Young people are sent into programs for talking back and not respecting authority. This is exactly what young people are supposed to do! If they stop, progress stops.

 It does not matter if the programs 'work.' So what if some people come out of them accepting the views of the program? Maybe they were brainwashed or maybe the reasoning just makes sense to them. That is not important. Whether or not some people are helped and some are not or how many fall on each side of the line is not important. What is important is how those young people who disagree with the program and its methods are treated. The programs do not allow for any dissenting opinion without retribution. They are forced to adopt the Party Line. In this country that is considered a great evil; period.

 We have some basic rights in the USA. One is freedom of speech (the right to voice dissenting opinions without fear of retribution). Another is that our lives, liberty, and property cannot be denied us without due process of law. The young people in these programs are being denied both of these basic rights and the only reason the programs can do this is because of the age of the victims. Those that promote these programs are openly advocating that it is okay that young people are denied these basic freedoms.

 No one has the right to forcibly strip search someone, steal their property, and force them into isolation and silence just because they disagree with their views or behavior. Not even that young person's parents. Not without due process of law. Without due process, these acts are abusive and unethical by the general standards of our society. Program supporters don't get this.

 Now comes the great hypocrisy. Young people are denied these legal rights with the intention of protecting them. It is accepted by society that young people are not always in control and therefore not always responsible for their actions. We should not criminalize juvenile behavior. Therefore, we remove minors from the adult legal system so that parents can parent and, if necessary, the juvenile justice system can intervene to protect or rehabilitate. The philosophy states that incarceration should be a last resort, in the least restrictive form possible, and for the shortest possible time. Programs use this 'protection' to do just the opposite. They hold young people completely responsible for their actions, they incarcerate at any opportunity to do so (show me one young person a program has ever turned away because their behavior was not bad enough), and they have a vested (monetary) interest in the most lengthy incarceration they can get away with.

 The icing on the cake. Placing a young person in an isolated environment in which these apparent sadists and potential pedophiles take complete control over that young person's life, without allowing them any safety measures at all (free communication, oversight), is simply irresponsible and asking for abuse to occur. The sadists convince the parents that the 'troubled teen' is lying and are able to do whatever they want. How parents can agree to this is incomprehensible. It defies common sense. And yet, they do.

 Only in America can you create a successful business model based on abusing children. Simply horrifying.

[AtomicAnt]

Oops! Forgot to sign in. The post on dissent is mine.

[Anonymous]

Well, can you tell me how skipping school, self mutilation,breaking the law(stealing)lack of respect for family and self all are given rights? I am a believer that the next generation will do better,more than the last, but you have to perform in society,do what is 'normal' like get up, bathe go to school and love yourself.

Those things were missing in my 15 year old..how could he be a leader in a 'dissent' if he was desenting from life?

If I had not put him in Cross Creek, my fear was he would be in jail or the mourge,,,,,,and that is not program speak.


I am not sure about working the program till graduation but I know it was necessary to save him from himself at that time.


A hopeful Mom

[Anonymous]

Have you tried therapy at the hands of a professional. Someone educated enough to psychologically work with your child.

The wwasp facilities do not provide any professional mental assistance (ie psychologist) unless specifically requested and paid for by the parent.

Wwasp does not have ANY effective drug treatment in place whatsoever. There is no 12 step program, NOTHING. Incarcerating a child at a compound will keep them of drugs while they are there. However  once they return home and the fear of being sent back wears off, they are likely to relapse. The addiction was never treated and since there are NO qualified mental health professionals at these facilities whatsoever the majority of the children who are acting out because of being emotionally disturbed, never get any real help at all. They are simply warehoused. Yes they are off the streets. Just waiting until the day they get out and can relapse.


 I say this as someone who went through the program, did the parent child seminars and everything. The majority of the boys in my parent child seminars , the ones I was in the program with, relapsed. They relapsed HARD. Some lasted 3 weeks some a couple of months some even 6 months to a year. A good portion of those who relapsed even moved on to heavier drugs and one boy from Dallas that I was there with had overdosed on heroin in less than a year after having graduated the wwasp program. He was in the program for two years.


 Wwasp is lying about the statistics unless they are doing the success survey the immediate following day after the boys are released from the progeram and have'nt had a chance to relapse yet.

Actually I don't think wwasp has had a survey done. I'm talking about an independent survey company to interview groups of graduates of the parent child seminars one year after the program. Maybe to study the long term effects they should do a five year study as well.  I know why they have'nt though, being in the program it would always make it back to us how our friends that had gone home were doing. Sadly often times they were doing worse than they were before the program.

You will have to take wwasp's word that their success rate it so high. And that their methods which they designed are better than what psychologists with degrees can do for your child.

Here is something to chew on. Why is the tuition so expensive when the cost of renting the facility is nearly free after dividing it amongst all the students. They buy the food in bulk which is cheap divided amongst all the students. And then their abundance of untrained, unqualified , minimum wage staff ( who are working there with no background check just a drug screening test which many of the teens can tell you how to beat.) Mix that with the fact that the upper level students are acting as non-paid staff. The costs of running these places is relatively low and they are extremely profitable. If they really wanted to help kids they could easily cut their tuitions in half and still turn a LARGE profit. But that's just it, it's not about helping the kids, it's about warehousing the child and seeing how long they can keep the parent hooked so they can milk them.

[Anonymous]

If I had not put him in Cross Creek, my fear was he would be in jail or the mourge,,,,,,and that is not program speak.

Yes, that most certainly is program speak. If you want you son to develop self-confidence, respect toward authority and himself, etc., why did you put him in an abusive environment that teaches the exact opposite? Most former prisoners of WWASPS come out of the program behaving worse, not better (yes, graduates included)-- and they have a whole new line of psychological issues to deal with as a result of their treatment and the cultic, abusive nature of the program. If you are afraid for your son's life, putting him through WWASPS is a great way to make sure he lands in even bigger trouble once he's back in the free world.

You are paying a program to hurt, abuse, terrorise, and indoctrinate your child. No matter how much you try to deny it, that is the reality. Way to go, "mom".

[Leaga]

I'm sure that she is legitamately worried about her son. If he really needs to be intervened with though; a wwasp facility is not the place"in my experience" as I've been to two of them. The program is often given credit for "changing" children enrolled. I think that oftentimes they are taking credit for simply warehousing the teen until they grow out of the self-destructive phase they are in. The majority of wwasp students fail upon return. I know this because I've talked to many. Some do do well probably because they just grew out of their old behavior patterns and realized they wanted more out of life. I am successful but I do not credit wwasp with that. I credit myself. WWASP is a cult they try to break you down and then make you conform to their doctrine. Many people become so institutionalized while under their care that that are barely able to function in the real world afterwards. Some go running back and apply as staff to the program because they are scared to face the world and fear living out of the program eviroment. I wanted to at first and was even offered a job but eventually I found my own way. They have no effective treatment plan for drugs or severely disturbed children. They are a for profit warehouse. [ This Message was edited by: Leaga on 2005-11-30 09:07 ]