Does anyone think AA is a cult?

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-17 20:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'll have to agree - there are some really good AA meetings - and a person seeking help needs to go to several to find the support group that works best.

Ok, I've heard about those. And I've heard of the seven cities of gold, too.

AA is all about support, fellowship. It's a place where you wont be judged because others there have been where you're at.  

Unless, of course, you persist in believing that you've never been within 3 zip codes of what these people describe. Then you'll know judgement!

It is free for all and it does help some people stay sober. So does therapy.  

Proof? I know a lot of chronic bingers who attend AA. Don't know too many chronically sober people who do.

If AA can help someone gain sobriety even for one day - then it has served it's purpose for that one person.  

One day? Really? All those people, all those hours, all those slips to sign, but it's worth it if just one of them is too broke for beer for one single day? I think you're getting carried away just a bit.

An alcoholic has a disease - it's not easy to cure.  

Nevermind how hard it is to diagnose! Goodness! It evades every lab test and clinical observation known to mankind on any continent! It's the most stealthy disease ever encountered. As stated above, I've been informed by a veritable XA connoisseur that one can have this disease for a long and happy lifetime w/o ever even suspecting its presence, far less suffering the effects, it's that insideous! Only a fellow stepcraft practitioner can properly diagnose this mysterious and terrifying disease. They are so incredibly prophetic that they can diagnose a dry drunk w/ a blindfold on and only the 2nd hand word of a partial party that the person quit drinking w/o AA.

 :roll:

Unfortunately they end up loosing so much in the end - if AA can help in some way then it is a worthwhile program.

And if it can't (as in the case of around 90% of ppl who try it; according to AA's own publishing) then it's not a worthwhile program.

True alcoholics can't just have one drink and drink in moderation - they will - at some point drink too much - too fast.  

This is starting to sound like a broken record.... or.... worksheets!

My neice is now in jail for her second DUI - she never went to AA.  Couldn't admit she had a problem - like many of the posters here who are so critical of a very good program.  "

And we, very obviously, are not in jail. Ever think that if you had offered her normal, basic familial love and support instead of helping her find her bottom by "not enabling" she might not have landed up in jail?

No, too painful! Better go to an alanon meeting where they can assure you that you owed her nothing, nothing!, once she took that first drink!

Welcome to the turning away...

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[bandit1978]

Amanda-  again, I have to say, if most of your best friends are in AA, then I am worried about you.  

Thats like saying "All of my friends used to be in prison".   Okay, one of my best friends is in prison, but he has a very interesting story, and was convicted of one of those "victimless" crimes.  But if *most* of my friends had been in prison, well, that would just be embarrassing!  It makes you look like... :wstupid:

[bandit1978]

...really, thats nothing to boast about.

[Cayo Hueso]

I knew I shouldn't have gotten into this.  Happens every time, just like the religion threads.  People believe cause they want to believe......period.

Look, I've been to enough meetings (believe me!) to nullify the "you just haven't found the right one" crap.  I have a problem with the BASIC TENETS of AA.  You seem to have a problem with the fact that I have a problem with AA.  Why?  I"m not telling you not to go.  I"m not telling you that horrible things will happen to you if you continue to go but you feel completely justified in telling me crap like this...

Some of you sound like you don't want to give up the booze. Truth be told - most of you who are critical of AA probably have problems with alcohol and don't want to give it up. It will -at some point become your worst enemy.

First, so what if I DON'T want to give up alcohol???  I enjoy it and now that I've realized I'm NOT powerless, I don't have a problem with it.

Second, how the fuck do you know what's going to happen in my future??  You claim that AA is not judgmental etc., but YOU just COMPLETELY judged me!!

A few years back I was out on the boat and a bad storm came up.  I saw a guy that I used to talk with quite a bit at one particular AA meeting that I found.  I ducked into his slip to get out of the storm and the first words out of his mouth were "When are we going to see you at a meeting again?"  I hadn't been for a few years.  I spent the next half hour explaining to him that I just couldn't justify living my life by a set of rules developed BY A CERTIFIABLE LUNATIC and derived out of a religious cult.  He was stunned!  Had no clue as to how to respond.  I then went on to tell him of the harm that I think Straight AND AA did to my family.  My father refuses to talk to me STILL.  This guy is about my dad's age and thinks a lot along the same lines.  He and his two daughters were not on speaking terms at the time.  I ran into him a few months after that.  He THANKED me!!  He said that he spent a few weeks thinking over what I said and looking into AA a little more.  He still goes to meetings occasionally, but not like he used to.  He refuses to sponsor people anymore because he realized tha danger in placing someone in a position of power over another.  He re-thought how he was handling the situation with his daughters and they're now speaking and re-developing the relationships that were damaged by his close following if AA's principles.  Now, bear in mind that this was a 20 year AAer.  Ex-navy, disciplined, hard core AAer.  Hmmm.  Who'd a thunk it??

I"m not trying to convince you of anything.  You like AA, you think its a great concept.  You think its successful.  I've asked you to SHOW me the research that proves it is.  You can't.  Again, I don't need to prove its NOT successful...all I'm doing is giving you my opinions.  Why do you feel the need to provide me with the dire forecasts of my life that you have?  I haven't been to a meeting in I couldn't even tell you how long.  Life is pretty good.  I don't really have any major complaints.  Where is the death?  Where is jail?  Where is the mental hospital?  Why am I not on the streets?  ALL of those things were predicted for me when I decided that I no longer needed people to give me instructions on how I should live my life.  Now those same things have been predicted by a couple of anonymous people on a message board that have NO CLUE who I am or what my life is all about.  

But AAers aren't judgemental or anything.  No. :roll:

If every cigarette you smoke takes seven minutes off your life, every game of Dungeons & Draggons you play delays the loss of your virginity by seven hours.
--Brian Warner - The Long Hard Road Out Of Hell

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-17 20:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I'll have to agree - there are some really good AA meetings - and a person seeking help needs to go to several to find the support group that works best. AA is all about support, fellowship. It's a place where you wont be judged because others there have been where you're at.  It is free for all and it does help some people stay sober. So does therapy.  If AA can help someone gain sobriety even for one day - then it has served it's purpose for that one person.  An alcoholic has a disease - it's not easy to cure.  Unfortunately they end up loosing so much in the end - if AA can help in some way then it is a worthwhile program.



True alcoholics can't just have one drink and drink in moderation - they will - at some point drink too much - too fast.  My neice is now in jail for her second DUI - she never went to AA.  Couldn't admit she had a problem - like many of the posters here who are so critical of a very good program.  "

See???  Perfect example of what I've been talking about.  You are so SURE that I have a problem that I'm not recognizing SIMPLY BECAUSE I REJECT AA.  Do I really need to say more?

Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous

[Cayo Hueso]

Here's another example of the absurdity of the AA mind.  My grandmother is 87 years old.  She was widowed in the early 40s with two small kids to raise and support.  She put herself back in college, became a teacher, retired, bought an Airstream trailer and traveled the country for about 15 years, by herself.  She now has a wonderful b/f (  :roll:  :roll:

Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.

--Abbie Hoffman

[Anonymous]

Dear Bandit,
I am a stay at home mom. I dont have a job or go to school. When i got pregnant and quit drinking and doing drugs, most of my "friends" quit talking to me. They couldnt handle me sober with a child no less. The only friends who stuck around were those in AA and yes a few others. I cant help it that my "friends" took of on me and the ones who stayed happened to be in AA. That is why most of my friends are in AA. And if all my friends had been in prision, if they were good people I would have no shame in saying that. To say I sound like a stupid person for saying most of my buddies are in AA is super judgemental and really you just sound ignorant and mean. You dont know my frinds. You dont know me. Do you think Im friends with them because they are in AA? Did you not hear me? I am not in AA. I dont go to meetings, have a sponser, ect. Just not doing it workes for me. And a couple of my friends were in prison for ridiculous drug shit that shoudnt have been. You make it sound as if peopel in AA and in prison are bad and should be shunned. For shame.

Amanda

[Anonymous]

Oh and bandit,
Did I sound as if I were boasting? Just stating a fact. So yeah.
Amanda

[Anonymous]

Cayo,
I hope you are refering to the other Anonymous posts and not mine. I dotn agree with them. I think AA can be good for some and not others. I never said you had to go either. If you didnt like it then I am glad you have found moderation. I have as well. AA dosnt fit me and I dont go. All I was saying is there are meeting out there that are great even if you are not interested in joining AA. I am glad I went the couple of years I did, if for nothing more than the fact that I met soem very cool people there. They are the friends, by the way, who have stuck by me no matter what. Not sure if that has anything to do with AA, but it has alot to do with the fact that they are not the flakey people they were when drinking. I just hope we can all just find what works for us and move on. Its like with religious people. I am not religious and dont particularly care for religion. My family is full of religious zealots. I love them, but they can drive me crazy. I just dont discuss religion with them. Just because they are a part of a ignorant stupid thing dosnt mean they are bad people. And I appreciate most of them. And I respect their CHOICE to be religious as long as they respect mine not to be. And for the most part, they do. The ones that dont, I dont really care for them and the great thing about being an adult, is I can not be around them if I dotn want to. So if there are peopel who are rude to you about AA and peopel on this forum who are judging you because they feel you need to quit drinking or whatever then ignore them. Who cares what they think? As long as you are happy then thats all that matters. No need to get all bent out of shape about ignorant people. There are too many in the world to get hung up on it. But dotn judge all people who like AA because of a few bad seeds.

Amanda

[Antigen]

Hey Amanda. I missed this the first time through. Congrats on quitting smoking! Never heard anyone ever say "Damn, if only I had kept smoking!"

 ::bigsmilebounce::  :rofl:

Unfortunately, she's representative of a LOT of stepcraft practitioners. Not all of them. Just the ones who can't stand for anyone to discuss the finer points of the Program or to speak publicly about any bad personal experience w/ it.

But, when it comes down to it, it's like any other religion (and the courts have consistently ruled that it is a religion for the purposes of the establishment clause) There are perfectly wonderful people who dig AA and don't go around chastizing the infidels and being rude. But there are also a lot of those other kinds. And those ones tend to be medalsome and quite destructive. Not because they're bad people to begin with. But because they can't comprehend how shoving AA down someone else's throat could possibly be anything but good.

As far as the efficacy of the Program, I'm w/ Cayo and Greg on that. There is research available that suggests (but doesn't prove) that AA is exactly as effective as any other intervention or no formal intervention at all. If you want to quit or better moderate your drinking and you believe that AA will help, then you'll do it. But the same is true of any other talisman. Some people attribute their sobriety to church attendance, taking up a sport or hobby, a vow to a spouse or what have you. My dad decided to go on the waggon for awhile. He took out his pencil, figured out how much he was spending on beer each week and spent that amount on lotto tickets instead. It worked for him because he worked it.

Never let your sense of
    morals get in the way of
    doing what's right
--Isaac Asimov

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[Anonymous]

Oh whatever you judgemental shit head! You dont know me. "You need to get out more." Ha! I feel sorry for you that your that rude and inconsiderate. At least on this forum I try to be kind and understanding of other peoples points of view. I am perfectly happy staying at home with my awsome kid and spending alot of time with my family. Plus like I said before, I love my friends. They are such good friends, in fact, that I dont feel the need to go out searching for more friends. They fufil all my friendship needs on a daily basis. Instead of wasting my time wiht a bunch of flakey ignorant people, I keep the few good friends I have. I would rather have two really awsome friends instead of thirty so-so friends. But Im sure you must be an expert on my life and therefore I wouldnt need to tell you that right?
Amanda

"A true friend is the greatest of all blessings."
-Duc De La Rochefoucauld

[GregFL]

Please tell me someone didn't march out "the alcohol Gene" and not only claim it exists, but claims they can tell when it is "activated".


 :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:



AA is a cultic religion. They adopt dogma, not facts. They present only anecedotal evidence and ignore all facts and figures, science and reason.

AA claims critics are either drunks or dry drunks. Where have we heard this Dogshit before people?


BULLSHIT on AA. AA spawned the entire seed/Straight/kids line of abusive care.  To tell us that have been subjected to AA gone loco that we know nothing about it is typical. Many of us have taken the time to really look into what is going on there Mrs. RN.

Believe your religion all you want, but if you come here making erroneous claims, be ready to chew on them for a while, because we are going to feed them right back to you.

[Anonymous]

Ginger,
Thanks! I have been quit for over a week now. ITs been harder than anything Ive ever had to do, but its proving to be worth it, being that I dont run out of breath walking up the stairs anymore! :lol:

Anyway, I agree. Thats what I just wrote to Cayo. There are alot of religious zealots out there who just cant let others be. As long as someone religious lets me believe what I want and respects my choices I will get along great wiht them. Like you said, theyre not bad people, just caought up in beliefs that get in the way of them being understanding and tolerant of others. And like I said to Cayo, I dotn think AA is the only way. I just feel like along with other options, if it works for a person, good for them. As long as they are respectful of others. And the people that responded on this forum are NOT being respectful of your all choices not to go to AA or believe the doctrerin. They even go as far as to say you just dotn want to quit. Did you ever think maybe Cayo and Ginger and Bandit dont NEED to quit? You know as well as I do that only you can believe you are an alcoholic. And it is a personal thing. If they dont believe they are alcoholics, then that is perfectly fine. They are entitled to believe what they want abou their lives. You are totally out of line to assume anything about them. Well, back to you Ginger. I just think that just because some people in AA are assclowns, dosnt mean they all are. Like I was saying before, my good friends are from AA. I get alot out of our friendship and they never try to get me to go back to AA. They respect my ability to not drink and they repsect my beliefs about pot. They help me alot in my life. Wether AA has anything to do with that or not is one thing, but I do know they would not be the same people if they were still drinking. Quitting has helped them alot and AA just did it for them, and therefore I am happy AA is around, if just for that. (that was a really long sentance!) But I agree wiht you.
Amanda

[GregFL]

On 2005-05-18 08:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Cayo,

I hope you are refering to the other Anonymous posts and not mine. I dotn agree with them. I think AA can be good for some and not others.

Amanda"

Uhh, Sure. Some people, the weak minded and unreasonable, need to grasp onto a dogmatic relgious belief system in order to make it thru this mine-ridden war we call life.

Now, I don't fault them, and some of them are even okay to deal with once subdued with the mind stopping AA dogma, as long as you don't discuss it with them critically.

These people are to be pitied in a sense. They are so weak they can't overcome basic addiction and compulsion issues. Therefore, They have to subscribe to an invented belief system, declare themselves powerless over a substance (when in reality, they are powerless over their own compulsive nature), and then practice said religion "one day at a time".

So sad for them.  Meanwhile, back in reality, AA has a zero percent success rate.

No AA devotee wants to address this elephant in the room but instead wishes to avert the conversation to the AA "success" stories.

JUST LIKE the Seed/Straight dogma!

[Anonymous]

See, but Greg, dont you see you are being just as intolerant as they are? Dont sink to that level. Not all AA people are bad evil bastards from hell. Let the ones that have it right be. Like Ive said AA is different all over the country. Not all AA people are intolerant judgemental jerks. Soem uinderstand that the Big book is not all its cracked up to be and adjust AA to meet their needs. NOt all of it is crap. Just the stuff that sys it is the only way. It is a way, yes, but as with anything in life, what works for one person most likely wony work for another.
Amanda