Does anyone think AA is a cult?

[RN on Board]

In responce to bandit who asked about encouraging moderation in alcohol consumption - moderation management. True alcoholics can not drink at all - that's why they are alcoholics. It just doesn't work. A true alcoholic will keep drinking until they are DRUNK - that's why moderation doesn't work. I learned a lot about it because my own child became an alcoholic.
It only takes a female 2 drinks to trigger the alcoholic gene - it takes a male only 3 drinks to trigger the gene.

I thought the same - I asked her "why can't you just have one beer or a glass of wine - why do you have to get so inebriated that you loose consciousness."  This comment showed my utter ignorance about the disease that has ruined so many lives. I would have been happy if she could have just had one drink - but she would continue drinking until she passed out.  People who are alcoholic can't just have one drink.  It wont stop there. You need to do some more research about the disease before you encourage true alcoholics to use "moderation management."

AA will not cure alcoholism. One man at an AA meeting said, " There's good news and bad news. The good news is there's a cure for alcoholism. The bad news is - you are the cure." AA does give a lot of support to people who feel all alone.  It sure helped my child - while residential treatment did absolutely nothing except scare the hell out of her.  
Here are the benefits:
1) Support of people in the same boat
2) good advice from others who have quit drinking
3) support for families of alcoholics
4) an outlet to share your story with people who will not judge you - because they have the same problems.
5) IT's FREEEEEEEEEE
6) It has helped many people stay sober

I wont even get into the power of prayer and trusting in a higher power - but it works for many people....just because it doesn't work for everyone doesn't mean it's not worthwhile.

There's no way out for the alcoholic - encouraging them to drink moderately is not the answer.  The only way for them to be cured is to completely stay away from alcohol.... It's the only cure. Obviously one of the posters here quit on his own - bravo.  What works for one doesn't necessarily work for all.  Congratulations to you.....doing it solo is quite an accomplishment.    :wave:  :tup:

Just like to add that every doctor and therapist I know suggests AA to their patients.  The 12 step program can work - if one does it.  It's just like weight watchers - you can loose weight if you follow the program.
The problem with most alcoholics is they can't even reach step one - admitting they are an alcoholic.  
Alcohol is no one's friend.  It will make you feel good and then leave you feeling depressed and sick the next day.  I've seen too many young men die as a result.  They come in confused with abdomens distending out like they are ready to give birth. Their skin is yellow and their livers are shot.  I've seen men in their 30's and 40's die. It's a serious problem in our society.

I support AA because I saw how it helped bring my child back. I think it works.[ This Message was edited by: RN on Board on 2005-05-17 10:44 ]

[Antigen]

RN, as a medical pro, I'm sure you're well aware of the placebo effect or the power of suggestion. Do you think maybe, just possibly, that if you convince someone that they're powerless over alcohol--incapable of moderate drinking--just possibly that might have some placebo effect?

Or, more plainly stated, can you explain how instilling a belief in powerlesness could not have this effect?

Everything that people say to you is personal. Whether it is constructive criticism or not will determine whether it cam from and asshole or not.

----Bill Warbis

[bandit1978]

"Rn on board"-  How are you able to differentiate an "alcoholic" from, say, a "problem drinker"?  (other than the jaundice).  

I *have* looked into this.  I learned about it in school.  Also, when I was 19, I was charged with "Driving after illegally consuming alcohol", which meant that I was *not* legally drunk (for an adult), but because I was a drinking minor, and there was "zero tolerance" at the time, then it was illegal for me to drive cause my BAC was 0.05.  (legal BAC for an adult being 0.08)  My parents thought it was pretty ridiculous (I had just come from my mother's dinner party, where I had had maybe 2 glasses of wine). So they got me a very good lawyer, and all I had to do was go to ASAP (alcohol safety action program), and there was nothing on my record.  

At ASAP, they provide education on how to recognize "problem drinking".  Then they require that we all attend like 8 AA meeting over the 8 weeks of the program (program was like 1 or 2 hours per week).  They admitted that many of us likely were not alcoholics, but that we should go to AA just to know that it is available.  

So we went to AA, and I thought it was really weird.  I was like, okay, so ASAP provides tools to recognize "problem drinking", but offers no real methods for dealing with "problem drinking", just "go to AA"??  

Now, I was quite young at the time, and not in nursing school yet, but I found this to be a disservice.  

So, though people may have "alcoholic genes", still it takes practice to become an alcoholic, right?  Even if one does have serious "alcoholic genes", doesn't it make sense that, if you intervene early on, it is possible to teach these people to moderate their drinking?  

I simply do not believe that this is not viable, as I have seen too much evidence to the contrary.  I know lots and lots of people who have the "alcoholic gene", and provided they had guidance early on (usually from a parent), these people are able to drink alcohol like normal people.

I also think that a Moderation Management (organized) program should be available to people (like Weight Watchers is), and that teenagers should be educated about this at school, and I think this would prevent some people from really going off the deep end, later on.

[Anonymous]

Oh Brother, RN sounds like those in the religion thread!!

No wonder, eh?

AA is more akin to religion whatwith its closely held dogma.


Pffffhhht.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-17 11:37:00, bandit1978 wrote:

I also think that a Moderation Management (organized) program should be available to people (like Weight Watchers is), and that teenagers should be educated about this at school, and I think this would prevent some people from really going off the deep end, later on.

But Bandit,

Alcoholics who hate AA continue down the path that leads to death.

Are you trying to kill all those alcoholics by giving them a way out?

The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-17 10:25:00, RN on Board wrote:

"
It only takes a female 2 drinks to trigger the alcoholic gene - it takes a male only 3 drinks to trigger the gene.

Please cite the research on this.

You need to do some more research about the disease before you encourage true alcoholics to use "moderation management."

You need to do some more research before you lump everyone into the same category.  I drank alcoholically for quite a while.  When I was IN AA I would continue to "binge" drink.  Once I STOPPED believing all the crap about being powerless, lo and behold, I started to be able to leave that label behind and I discovered that I COULD drink like a normal human being.

Here are the benefits:

1) Support of people in the same boat

2) good advice from others who have quit drinking

3) support for families of alcoholics

4) an outlet to share your story with people who will not judge you - because they have the same problems.

5) IT's FREEEEEEEEEE

6) It has helped many people stay sober

You can get the same results from that proverbial "blue dot" and a couple of good friends.

but it works for many people

Again, reasearch please?  Even stats!

There's no way out for the alcoholic

Well, not if you keep talking to them like THAT there isn't. :roll:

 The 12 step program can work - if one does it.

There it is again.  AA's "successes" are credited to AA, but the "failures" are because they didn't work the program enough.  Sounds eerily similar to religion.

 

Alcohol is no one's friend.  It will make you feel good and then leave you feeling depressed and sick the next day.

Are you stating this patently, across the board??  That's an awfully broad statement.  Should we go back to prohibition days then??

 

Distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.
--Friedrich Nietzsche

[`]

I feel that 12-step programs were a continuation of the damaging beliefs that i was taught at the Re-education Gulag to which I was sent. They wasted five years of my life. There is no one to be mad at about this except myself, I guess. Sure it wasn't as extreme as Straight, but the confounding beliefs were all there, what a bad person everyone was, inherently "full of shit". People were always being accused, although often in a roundabout way, of "sitting in their shit", "blaming", or "self-pity". To people in real pain, who might well have been drinking and/or going to meetings in order to have some relief from the pain of abusive relationships past and present, painful life situations and so on, this is very definitely extremely abusive.

There were a couple of books I read toward the fading end of my previously dedicated tenure in the meetings, one was The Truth About Addiction and Recovery. That helped. It also helped to have a buddy out in the parking lot who was also starting to see that the emperor wore no clothes.

[Anonymous]

Ginger,
I just quit smoking, so sorry if I lashed out. And, by the way, I just quit. I bought nicotine gum, but decided that instead of tourturing myself by chewing that crap every half hour, I woudl just stop. And it worked. No steps, no gum, no patch, no support groups, no therapy. Just me. So yes, it can be done. Its hard as hell to quit cold turkey from a pack and a half a day and i can be really irrational and rude and angry, but at least I decreased my chances of dying from cancer and decreased the chances of my child growing up to smoke. Well, the reason I get so angry is that yes people can comment on this all day long if they want as it si an open forum. However, it seems the main reason people on this forum get so pissy and upset is because of the abusive non- voluntary treatment that goes on in the US and elsewhere. AA is a choice. And if it is a cult then that cult has helped people i know and love. It isnt hurting anyone or you or your kids and I fell it is weird that you guys get so down on a form of treatment that is voluntary and not harmful. If the person who goes to AA still drinks after trying it then that is a good reason for them to find alternative methods of treatment or try the stop method. But it didnt psychologically injur them or force them to do anything tthey didnt want to do. So why are you guys so intent on hating it, even as far as saying it shoudl be shut down simply because you dont like it. Im sorry your family is rude because of their involvement with treatment. But not all peopel turn into assholes whent they go into AA. Ive found it is the opposite with the peopel i know. And success, i feel, is defined by the person. It is impossible for you or I to try to see if AA works. You would have to follow that personsentire recovery tilll they die. Some people it works for, they relapse, they go back, they realpse, they go back, ect. YOu dont know how many of those poepel who it didnt work for might go back later and find success. If it is keeping that person sober right now that is success. The fact that Im not smoking right now means more to me than if Im still not going to be smoking 2-3 years from now. Hell I could die tomorrow. All I have is today. Im not even in AA. I just like it because it helps others in a non abusive way. Why do people who arent in AA feel so strongly compeled to critisize it? Because oyu dont like it. And peopel who like it will critisize those who dont. Until we all just let each other alone and let it help those it helps and let those it dosnt get help elsewhere, then we are always going to debate and critisize each other.
Amanda

[Anonymous]

In response to a few things that Cayo said to RN,

Isnt the whole damn point of recovery not to drink? Well, if the person is not drinking then its successful right? Well, like i said to Ginger, do you only determine the success rate of AA by the people who went and drank again? Do you sees tudies of that persons entire recovery program? If not hen how in the world would you know if AA is succesful for them or not? For example, one could go to aa, not drink, drink again, go back ot aa, not drink, drink again, go back, and vnever drink again. Everyone is different. Therefore it is pretty near impossible to prove AA is innefective if you dont look at the persons recovery form the time they joined to the tiem they die.

Amanda
PS, Wouldnt it be better for a person who drinks too much to go to aa and stop drinking then to try nothing at all and possibly die from it? Especially since it is a VOLUNTARY program. And it is free? And it is not abusive? How do you know that some person who was drinking alot tried aa and that little while of not drinking kept them from gettign in a drunk drivign accident, commiting a crime while drunk that woudl have followed them the rest of their lives, or stopped their liver from being destroyed? YOu dont know, so I say kudos for them for trying something. Placebo or not, cult or not, it is helping people stay sober RIGHT NOW.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2005-05-17 17:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"In response to a few things that Cayo said to RN,



Isnt the whole damn point of recovery not to drink? Well, if the person is not drinking then its successful right? Well, like i said to Ginger, do you only determine the success rate of AA by the people who went and drank again? Do you sees tudies of that persons entire recovery program? If not hen how in the world would you know if AA is succesful for them or not? For example, one could go to aa, not drink, drink again, go back ot aa, not drink, drink again, go back, and vnever drink again. Everyone is different. Therefore it is pretty near impossible to prove AA is innefective if you dont look at the persons recovery form the time they joined to the tiem they die.

I'm not trying to prove AA ineffective.  No need to.  The burden is on those who claim is IS effective.  Whenever this debate is brought up someone (or 2 or 3 or more) start yammoring about the "success" rate of AA.  Back it up is all I'm saying.  I talked mainly about how you can get the same "success" as AA claims (5% according to there own, report) from the token of your choosing and a couple of good pals.  

I personally found it harmful for the reason I stated earlier and for what FKA posted.  I found it to be extremely judgmental, contradictory, predatory, self-defeating and controlling.  That was MY personal experience with it.  Never did find that happy, joyous and free feeling until I finally woke up and realized how utterly full of shit it all was.  THAT'S when my life finally began to make some sense and start to improve.  

I hope you click on the links that have been provided for you here.  Ya never know, you may just find a few things in there you hadn't thought about before.  Start with something fun though, try this one...  http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12

watch the video.  The whole show was great.

A student burst into his office.  "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me."  To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler

[Anonymous]

I got to the site, but when I tried to click on the pic of Penn and Teller that says aa video,it wouldnt load. I have that problem alot cuz of a slow computer. Anyway, religion has people brainwashed into thinking a higher power can solve anything. AA touches on that, but as Ive said many times before on this topic, not all AA groups are the same. I was never forced to do ANYTHING the way the Big Book says. My sponser was a really understanding person. Times change and progress is inevitable (hopefully) I have more open mind about it. The things that I feel are good about AA I can hold onto and accept into my life. The things I feel are sexist, religious, or "cultish" if you will about it, I dont accept. As I said, i am not in AA. I was, but am not now. I actually have found that I can just not do it. I am ok with not drinking. I have had alcohol poising so many times I almost puke when I smell alcohol let alone drink it. So I just dont do it. AA has a certain way of doing things. Yes the big book says in order to stay sober you must do everything in it or die. But not all AAers feel that way and not all groups follow the docterine exactaly. I have found inspirational awsome groups that I would go to regardless of wether I was a memeber of AA or not, simply because they have very interesting and smart things to say. AA is not more effective than other treatment. However, it is effective for those it works for. Sorry yall, but you cant go up to an alcoholic in AA who is sober and happy and say, "Yes well, you may be sober and happy but because the success rate is so low on paper and statistically, you really dont count. So sorry, but the statistics proove, you are not really going to stay sober."  You dont know anymore than I do if someone will stay sober or not and wether AA has anything to do with it or not. I agree with the choosing a good frinds thing. Most of my best friends are in AA and I take advantage of their intelligence, humor, and all around greatness on a daily basis. They are good people. They feel AA has alot to do with that. Wether it does or not, Im glad they are who they are and I love them.

I feel bad for you that you found groups that sucked. i did too, till I found some that didnt and werent judgemental, contradictory, predatory, self defeating, or controlling. Theres a whole hell of alot of Aa meetings out there. Not all are the same. Theres at least a meeting evey hour here in Colo. Spgs. And all of them are different. Sure, alot have judgemental assholes, but I wouldnt be advocating AA while not a memeber if I hadnt found some cool meetings. I would have to agree with you if that were the case and say they all suck. But there are smart, cool, witty, awsome peopel in AA out there, who are constantly expanding their knowledge of what works and dosnt work in AA and who are sober and happy because of it.
Amanda

"If you would be loved, love and be lovable."
-Benjamin Franklin

[Anonymous]

I'll have to agree - there are some really good AA meetings - and a person seeking help needs to go to several to find the support group that works best. AA is all about support, fellowship. It's a place where you wont be judged because others there have been where you're at.  It is free for all and it does help some people stay sober. So does therapy.  If AA can help someone gain sobriety even for one day - then it has served it's purpose for that one person.  An alcoholic has a disease - it's not easy to cure.  Unfortunately they end up loosing so much in the end - if AA can help in some way then it is a worthwhile program.

True alcoholics can't just have one drink and drink in moderation - they will - at some point drink too much - too fast.  My neice is now in jail for her second DUI - she never went to AA.  Couldn't admit she had a problem - like many of the posters here who are so critical of a very good program.

[Anonymous]

Some of you sound like you don't want to give up the booze. Truth be told - most of you who are critical of AA probably have problems with alcohol and don't want to give it up.  It will -at some point become your worst enemy.

[Anonymous]

AA is now integrated into youth psychiatric care. I'm talking about hospitals... not just programs and such. I think its counter productive.. a little too black and white IMO.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-17 20:28:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Some of you sound like you don't want to give up the booze. Truth be told - most of you who are critical of AA probably have problems with alcohol and don't want to give it up.  It will -at some point become your worst enemy.  "

Bullshit. You don't even know any of us. My brother (the XA fanatic) once warned me that I could be an alcoholic all my life and never know it! I could work, earn a good living, have my life run smoothly and be happy all the time and never know that, in "reality", I was a pittiable drunk. I told him "Yeah! That's my goal! Now take another Prozac and shut up!"
 :roll:

I think animal testing is a terrible idea;  they get all nervous and give the wrong answers.    
-- A Bit of Fry and Laurie