Author Topic: Is this illegal or unethical or okay??  (Read 3323 times)

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Offline bandit1978

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Is this illegal or unethical or okay??
« on: May 01, 2005, 08:26:00 AM »
At Provo Canyon School, I personally witnessed several kids convert to Mormonism, and get baptized (though PCS claims to be secular...such BS).

Is it illegal, or what to indoctrinate and baptize minors, regardless of how their parents feel about it?
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Offline Anonymous

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Is this illegal or unethical or okay??
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2005, 10:56:00 AM »
Well for starters, "Mormonism" is a cult...
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2005, 11:31:00 AM »
Usually if they're over 16 or 17--the age varies with state law--it isn't illegal, but in my opinion it's certainly unethical.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2005, 12:45:00 AM »
Well, yeah the Mormon church is a cult, but so is the entire Christian church. :skull:
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Offline cherish wisdom

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« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2005, 01:15:00 AM »
I think I have indicated quite clearly that I AM MORMON. I also have a son serving a mission in Poland.  The rules with children - first of all the missionaries will not teach a child without parental consent. Also the consent of both parents is necessary before they can be baptised. I've been to PCS and there is no baptismal font there.  Baptism in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints requires full immersion and must be done in a pool of water. Most of the churches have these.  Also a child can't be baptised until they have learned about the church. The doctrins of the church are taught by the missionaries.  All baptisms must be approved of by mission leaders and bishops.  Sometimes they do not allow a person to be baptised.  Often they must wait for several months to clean up their lives.  

[ This Message was edited by: cherish wisdom on 2005-05-01 22:19 ]
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Offline cherish wisdom

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« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 01:17:00 AM »
I just wanted to add that my daughter was not ALLOWED to go to the LDS church services at PCS - so it goes both ways.  Also her scriptures were taken away and she was not allowed to read them. So if a child wants to go to church and read scriptures they will take this privalage away as a form of punishment.  The staff at PCS are definitely crazy makers.   :flame:

Religion is just mind control.
--George Carlin, comedian

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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2005, 11:33:00 AM »
//The rules with children - first of all the missionaries will not teach a child without parental consent. //

Well this isn't so when it comes to these programs Cherish. They do indoctrinate the teens, with out parental consent - even in cases where the parent has been very clear no such indoctrination is welcome. It is especially disturbing to me, that this indoctrination is taking place in such an environment - where the indoctrinators have absolute power over these young people.

It seems to me, that very often, Mormon ethics don't extend to the gentiles.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2005, 01:58:00 PM »
I don't know if it's illegal, but it is highly unethical.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2005, 04:31:00 PM »
Buzz - I think its more to do with the fact that they work for a program than they're mormon.

A program with protestants or Catholics, or Muslims would likely do the same thing to some degree or another.

A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it.  That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance

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Offline bandit1978

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« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2005, 05:28:00 PM »
It has been my experience that Catholics and Jews are not out to convert people the same way that Mormons do.  Example-  Catholics and Jews do not normally go on "missions".  

Not that there's anything wrong with that.  But don't be suprised if you go try to preach (under the guise of simply relief work) in a strictly Islamic land, then end up in jail.  It goes both ways, and you have to respect the law in other lands.  

There is no baptismal pool IN PCS per say.  What happens is, the kids are offered the opportunity to attend Mormon services on Sundays.  Even the kids on "investment" unit (the bad girls) were allowed to go, unless they were in isolation.  

From there, the missionaries who run the services offer to meet with kids individually, for bible talk or counseling or I'm not really sure what.  They would come in the evening, and the kid would be allowed to leave their unit to talk to the missionary for an hour or so.

I saw a good number of kids take them up on that offer.

The missionaries would also come and have BBQ and parties and stuff, but the only kids who could go were the ones who attended church.  

After awhile, some of them would get baptised.  This would be done off the grounds of PCS.  

I attended the services a couple of times, out of curiosity (I had never been to church other than Catholic church, which they only had once a month).  I was facinated at how the Mormon church provided the sacrament of communion to anyone who wanted it, because in Catholic church, you must first be baptised and study for awhile before you accept communion.

 I told my therapist that I thought this was strange (he was a bishop or something in the Mormon church), and he agreed, and said that they should not be passing out communion like that.  But apparantely, it continued.  

Really, I found the whole thing creepy, as my parents had been so certain that there was no religious affiliation at PCS, which was one of the reasons they sent me there.
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egan Flynn
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Offline Antigen

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Is this illegal or unethical or okay??
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2005, 06:20:00 PM »
Wow! My dear elderly third cousin was a former nun but my mom sent us to a Presby school. I remember her having difficulty w/ attending my sister's graduation because we held the ceremony in the church. She almost didn't attend, then decided she'd just have to go to confession and pay the pennance.

That's how strong the Catholic prohibition is on attending services in other denominations. Now, personally, I think it's silly. Sorry, I just do. And I understand that most Catholics probably wouldn't let something like that stand between them and an important invent in the lives of the children they love. But it is a serious violation; I guess it might be as serious as forcing someone to eat prohibited food.

The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy.".
--George Washington, Revolutionary War General and U.S. President

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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2005, 06:57:00 PM »
//Buzz - I think its more to do with the fact that they work for a program than they're Mormon.

A program with protestants or Catholics, or Muslims would likely do the same thing to some degree or another.//

Well all kinds of things can happen  - and I am very aggrieved at some of what has taken place in "Christian" programs. However,Most of the Christian programs are very up front about their Christian message. There is no promise made to families that Biblical instruction will not take place - Usually, in the Christian programs it is considered an important part of the therapy and a family opposed to this wouldn't use them.

I am aware of some church operated programs here in town ( not just owned by members of some church - but rather by the church its self) and they are very respectful of their young clients various back grounds.

They tend to operate like completely secular facilities - although in the Catholic homes, it is apparent that they are Catholic - with the statues and stained glass stations of the Cross on the walls of the main building - but the children are not required to attend any service; there is no religious instruction as part of the therapy, or apparent in the living quarters; and they provide a minister as well as a priest for services or requested faith counseling.
I expect they would also have a rabbi around if there was a call for one.

What makes these Mormon programs different - is that when asked: do you instruct the students in Mormonisum - they insist they do not - but they do. Even when it is made clear such mission work would be most unwelcome, they proceed with out regard - and deny it when asked. I know, b/c this very thing happened to my son while at Dundee - and I had been very clear any attempt at indoctrination would be unwelcome and considered a serious breach of trust. So, he was invited to a Bible study, and was there handed a Book of Mormon!

This IS unethical.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2005, 07:22:00 PM »
Ok, thats a crock. I agree with that.

But I dont think that only mormons do that, Buzz. While I personally have no love lost for them (whatsoever...) I think its a bit unfair to single them out when there are plenty of other bullshit religious nuts running programs :lol:

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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2005, 07:26:00 PM »
//I think its a bit unfair to single them out when there are plenty of other bullshit religious nuts running programs//

Fair enough. I did alude to that. But they are the ones I had my problem with, so thats what I am best able to talk about.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2005, 03:23:00 AM »
Fair enough again. Mormons have a habit of showing up in programs or in bullshit therapy it seems.

A 12-step program made by a mormon doctor to stop people from the terrible "addiction of masturbation" pretty much made me lose any respect for them. Then again, WWASPS seems to think porn is an addiction... ho hum  :rofl:

Oh, and supposedly being against caffeine, etc.... PUHLEEEEZE. Like I can take them seriously? And the Garments... LOL.

The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
                                                                     
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm' target='_new'>Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."