Let Spring Creek Lodge locals know the truth.

[Anonymous]

I am from the area of SCL, so i guess i would be a "local". I know people who have worked for the organization and its hard for me to believe that if they had witnessed any kind of abuse that they wouldnt do the right thing by reporting it. Dont get me wrong, i am not saying you all are lying, just saying its hard to believe. But heres a question: if there are so many kids treated as bad as the forum suggests, why hasnt SCL and other places been closed, subject to criminal and civil charges, or the parents of these kids freakin' out and blowing them up? How do you shut an organization down that is this bad? YOU GO TO THE MEDIA, YOU DOCUMENT AND JOIN TOGETHER AS A GROUP TO GO AFTER THEM IN THE COURT SYSTEM. If the catholic church has to respond and take action for molesting children, these organizations do too. They are not above the law.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-16 16:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I am from the area of SCL, so i guess i would be a "local". I know people who have worked for the organization and its hard for me to believe that if they had witnessed any kind of abuse that they wouldnt do the right thing by reporting it. Dont get me wrong, i am not saying you all are lying, just saying its hard to believe. But heres a question: if there are so many kids treated as bad as the forum suggests, why hasnt SCL and other places been closed, subject to criminal and civil charges, or the parents of these kids freakin' out and blowing them up? How do you shut an organization down that is this bad? YOU GO TO THE MEDIA, YOU DOCUMENT AND JOIN TOGETHER AS A GROUP TO GO AFTER THEM IN THE COURT SYSTEM. If the catholic church has to respond and take action for molesting children, these organizations do too. They are not above the law."

The groups already exist, people speak out all the time. Time, and various other mainstream news sources have done numerous pieces on the abuse of WWASP, yes it is abuse. The reason why they aren't shut down? Because most people have the same naive beliefs in "government should have solved it already if something was wrong" just like you. Dig a little deeper if you are interested. Find out why these programs are so prevelant in states like Montana, Utah and Nevada. Find out why WWASP is the largest political contributor in the state of Utah. Find out why so many politicians own their own program, for political and financial benefit. They are very much above the law when the states refuse to enforce the law already on the books. Everything you suggest has been done many times over. I'm sure this horrible treatment will not last forever, just like it took the Catholic church decades to own up to it's misdeeds. I am curious, what qualifications did your friends have to work with children?

[Anonymous]

or the parents of these kids freakin' out and blowing them up?

 :lol:  :lol:

You'll have to ask them.

[Anonymous]

First off, I do not believe that the "'government should have solved it already if something was wrong' just like you". What i do believe is that no person, organization or politician is above the law even if they want to pretend to be. Sorry if I am an optimist. The people I have known to work at SCL: some are highly qualified (BA or MA degrees in pscyh or social work), and some had high school diplomas. I know exactly how corrupt the local officals are--remember i am from the area and have went to school with kids from similiar organizations. I know why places like Montana, Utah, Nevada and Idaho are used to store the 'wayward youth'--its remote, easily concealed, lack of respectable authority to respond to complaints, and parents have the opportunity to send their kids to rural location thinking they wont have access the same things urban kids have. But they are only kidding themselves.
 My overall point is not to argue, but to remind people that the law doesnt stop at local and state level. We have superior courts too; i.e., federal level. If abuse is happening, keep fighting the system. They cant ignore it forever--even tho' it may seem that way. I only stumbled on to this site by accident (typos) and wanted to give a locals opinion. And after reading a lot of the commentary, it seems like some people are more concerned with bickering than striving forward. Honestly, i dont have a stake in this forum, so either listen to what the outsider has to say or continue to argue and get no where with it. Peace.

[Antigen]

Thanks, local. I, for one, really apreciate your taking the time to comment. Please understand that a lot of the bickering happens between pro and con program people. I don't censor or ban anyone for any reason except for spamming, flooding or hacking (and those can be suprisingly ambiguous terms, b'lieve it!)

So you've bravely stepped into an extremely contentious situation. Please don't take it personally if people are a little raw, suspicious or sometimes downright paranoid.

The other anon is quite correct, though. People have gone to the courts, sued, pursued criminal action, gone to the press... just about anything you can think of.

But you're also right that, eventually, it'll do the trick.

Personally, I think the inception and growth of the industry directly reflects the political and social shift toward authoritarianism in this country over the last 30 years. Note I didn't say left or right; both color teams are up to their eyebrows in it, even though the Dems tend to use kinder, gentler words to describe what they do.

I think we'll see this particular brand of sadistic lunacy phased out as we return to our senses in general. Ok, IF we're able to regain our senses and autonomy again. But here's hopeing!

"Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against."
--Thomas Carlyle

I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist

[Anonymous]

The main reason the programs are in Utah, etc., is that they are parent friendly states - by that I mean that if a kid doesn't want to get off drugs, doesn't see they have issues, etc., they can refuse to go to programs in other states that give kids rights like that.  Can you even imagine a drugged out kid saying, sure I'll go!   :rofl:

[Anonymous]

Can you even imagine a drugged out kid saying, sure I'll go!

Yes, I surely can, and it happens everyday. Believe it or not MOST teens that get help, do so without being forced in day treatment and other drug therapies and clinics. Can you imagine a teen wanting to try all the fun things his friends told him about while being locked up for two years when he gets out? I can.

[001010]

To extinguish the free will is to strike the conscience with death, for both
 have but one and the same life. -- William Ellery Channing

_________________
EST (Landmark/Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88

[Antigen]

On 2006-03-17 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

"The main reason the programs are in Utah, etc., is that they are parent friendly states - by that I mean that if a kid doesn't want to ...

Marry some old perv w/ 14 wives, get beaten on a regular basis, pretend to believe in John Smith's magical eyewear, etc., why that's just okee-dokee w/ the saints.

Yeah, we know what "parent friendly" means in Utah!

...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana
is its effect on the degenerate races.

http://www.heartbone.com/no_thugs/hja.htm' target='_new'>Harry Anslinger

[001010]

On 2006-03-17 16:57:00, Eudora wrote:

"

On 2006-03-17 12:38:00, Anonymous wrote:


"The main reason the programs are in Utah, etc., is that they are parent friendly states - by that I mean that if a kid doesn't want to ...

Marry some old perv w/ 14 wives, get beaten on a regular basis, pretend to believe in John Smith's magical eyewear, etc., why that's just okee-dokee w/ the saints.



Yeah, we know what "parent friendly" means in Utah!

...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana
is its effect on the degenerate races.

http://www.heartbone.com/no_thugs/hja.htm' target='_new'>Harry Anslinger

"

Well, I didn't want to go there, but... :wstupid:

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-17 10:08:00, Eudora wrote:

"Thanks, local. I, for one, really apreciate your taking the time to comment. Please understand that a lot of the bickering happens between pro and con program people. I don't censor or ban anyone for any reason except for spamming, flooding or hacking (and those can be suprisingly ambiguous terms, b'lieve it!)



So you've bravely stepped into an extremely contentious situation. Please don't take it personally if people are a little raw, suspicious or sometimes downright paranoid.



The other anon is quite correct, though. People have gone to the courts, sued, pursued criminal action, gone to the press... just about anything you can think of.



But you're also right that, eventually, it'll do the trick.



Personally, I think the inception and growth of the industry directly reflects the political and social shift toward authoritarianism in this country over the last 30 years. Note I didn't say left or right; both color teams are up to their eyebrows in it, even though the Dems tend to use kinder, gentler words to describe what they do.



I think we'll see this particular brand of sadistic lunacy phased out as we return to our senses in general. Ok, IF we're able to regain our senses and autonomy again. But here's hopeing!

Thanks for that vote of 'confidence'. I hope my point got across and people read it. I just wanted to say keep up the fight. I know these places will get shut down but it wont be done by bickering but by spreading the word. More bee's with honey!

[Anonymous]

"The other anon is quite correct, though. People have gone to the courts, sued, pursued criminal action, gone to the press... just about anything you can think of. "



So people have taken all these actions, and gotten no results? Doesn't that indicate that even after the kind of scrutiny that comes with lawsuits and criminal prosecution, there's not really much of a case?

These programs look terrible when you read all the entries at sites like this, but when you actually get specific and address the allegations one by one, and require non-anonymous witnesses, you see that the programs in general just aren't what many of you claim.

The same odd impulse that causes people to lump all the programs together is the one that ultimately weakens your entire argument. They aren't all alike, they vary enormously in their approach and their level of quality, and many are in fact doing a great job.

Any campaign that relies on sentimentality and dramatic antics for its effect can't be sustained because real life requires hard facts and evidence.

In contrast, the few cases out there that showed evidence of real problems demonstrate that the system actually works fine. Bad programs should be closed, or forced to improve; that's already happening.

[Troll Control]

Any campaign that relies on sentimentality and dramatic antics for its effect can't be sustained because real life requires hard facts and evidence.

I agree.

Can you please show the hard evidence in the form of a clinical study that shows that the programs you support do any good whatsoever?

Thanks.

[Antigen]

On 2006-03-21 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

So people have taken all these actions, and gotten no results?

No results? ROFL  :rofl:

Program after program shut down
Directors and employees beating the pavement
Corporate reorganizations and name changes as a way or life
Legal bills that must rival the public debt of many mid sized cities

Granted, it's a uphill battle. We're working against a mighty strong desire for a silver bullet solution to the myth of out of control kids. It doesn't help, either that the people currently squatting in the White House and several governors' mansions around the country are up to their eyebrows in the child abuse business.

But we are making some progress.

Here's the thing, though. If these kids really were half, even one tenth as dangerous and deranged as you fuckers like to say, you'd all have died violent deaths already. So are you sure you want to complain about the lawsuits and criminal investigations? I can think of  worse things than finding yourself bunking w/ Charles Long III. Not many, but some.

O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!
--Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist

[Anonymous]

On 2006-03-21 14:42:00, Eudora wrote:

"

On 2006-03-21 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:


So people have taken all these actions, and gotten no results?

No results? ROFL  :rofl:



Program after program shut down

Directors and employees beating the pavement

Corporate reorganizations and name changes as a way or life

Legal bills that must rival the public debt of many mid sized cities



Granted, it's a uphill battle. We're working against a mighty strong desire for a silver bullet solution to the myth of out of control kids. It doesn't help, either that the people currently squatting in the White House and several governors' mansions around the country are up to their eyebrows in the child abuse business.



But we are making some progress.



Here's the thing, though. If these kids really were half, even one tenth as dangerous and deranged as you fuckers like to say, you'd all have died violent deaths already. So are you sure you want to complain about the lawsuits and criminal investigations? I can think of  worse things than finding yourself bunking w/ Charles Long III. Not many, but some.

O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!
--Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist

"

Nah, you can't have it both ways. Either the results aren't there--in which case there isn't that big a problem, and this stuff is mainly sensationalism--or the results are there--in which case the system is working. This is a logical conclusion based on your point about all the things people have tried.