Author Topic: SURVIVORS & Parents please read...What would you do?  (Read 6779 times)

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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2005, 02:29:00 PM »
Buzz,
My approach to any problem is to find the optimum method of dealing with it, which is not going to cause new problems.
While some people appear to have no effect from the drugs they're taking on a day-to-day basis, they don't know what they are doing to their organs and natural brain chemistry. I guess for some, a few 'good' years are worth it. Not for me.

I prefer alternatives and weeding out the real underlying physical deficiency and/or emotional distress.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2005, 04:16:00 PM »
I just read this post and would like to write to the original poster. I too was in an extremely similar situation to your daugter 5 years ago. I was extremely depressed, suicidal, I didnt take a shower for weeks on end, I dressed in ratty old cloths, got involved in witchcraft and the whold goth scene, did drugs, drank, smoked cigarettes, basically dropped out of school, had insomnia, ect. I was wondering if she has done LSD. I have had expereinces and have had friends who have had expereinces with LSD where even after months after doing it, you still hear voices, have hallucinations, ect. It could be a possibility.

First off, let me say that I think you are very brave and smart to be trying to get your daugter some help. Whatever method you choose, I think you are a good parent and I can understand your concern. My parents tried everything to help me. Therapy, prescription drugs (antidepressants, antibuse, ect) mental hospitals, grounding me, taking privliges away, ect. I ended up going to Cross Creek Manor. Granted it was 5 years ago, but I know it helped me. Alot of people hate these wwasp programs and for good reason. Some of them are horrible. But I expereinced no abuse there, and I really feel it helped me. I have not been suicidal since, I have been sober since, and I am basically a happy person now. I am married and have a daugter, I am in the process of going back to school, and I have a much better relationship wiht my parents now. I havnt been in the program for a while, so if you consider CCM, do research (unbiased) and they would of course let you go there and check it out. I am only aware of how my program was so I cant give any advice on any of the other ones. If you want to ask me questions feel free. I hope you keep faith in your daughter. She loves you but probably has a hard time lovign herself right now. I know when I was like that, I pretended not to care, but truly deep down I loved my parents, I just took most of my anger out on them because I loved them the most. I know that sounds odd, but true. I hope you can find a place, method, whatever that works for her and you. My heart truly goes out to you. I know if my daughter wsa doing that, I would be beside myself. It is hard. You can do everything "right" and still you kids can become unhappy and unbelieveble embarrased by you. I know the program worked for me because I knew I needed help. I was so unhappy in my life, I didnt even cry about leaving my friends, my home, going to a new place, leavign my family, ect. I cried because I knew my life was so out of control that this was the only way for me. I had tried it all and it didnt work. All I know is when I tried the program, it did work.

The best of luck to you.
Amanda
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Offline equestrienne

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« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2005, 05:30:00 PM »
a few thoughts on this post:
1. the lsd issue.
 Some users of LSD experience what is clinically referred to as LSD psychosis, schizophrenic-like disorders that seem to be triggered by using the drug. However, in careful analysis of LSD psychosis patients, it appears that those who have strong family histories of major psychosis or psychopathology are more vulnerable than those who do not (Tsuang et al., 1982). Vardy et al. (1983) reported similar findings, as well as that LSD psychotics have significantly higher rates of parental alcoholism than control groups. In a survey of five-thousand individuals who had used LSD a total of twenty-five-thousand times, Cohen (1960) found 1.8 psychotic episodes per thousand ingestions, 1.2 attempted suicides, and 0.4 completed suicides -- figures consistent with the those of the general population.

 Bad reactions to LSD are almost certainly dependent on the user. It is becoming increasingly easier to diagnose schizophrenics clinically as patients suffering physical disorders -- these people should be very cautious, if not completely avoidant of truly powerful psychoactive drugs like LSD. There are another class of people who use LSD irresponsibly, ignoring important factors like set and setting -- bad reactions, more acute then chronic, are likely to occur here as well.

 The phenomena of LSD flashbacks has been over-sensualized by the media for many years. Flashbacks are associated with highly emotional experiences and often happen to people who have never used psychedelic drugs. A frightening war memory, being raped, or even getting married, can all trigger flashbacks quite some time later. Thus, an emotional experience on LSD can also cause flashbacks. Flashbacks also occur due to post-traumatic stress disorder, associated with victims of disaster and extreme violence -- it is estimated that 1% of the general population suffers from this ("Journey for Better Life," 1992).

i took these excerpts from an article on the psychological effects of lsd. you can read the full text here.

http://nepenthes.lycaeum.org/Drugs/LSD/LSD.psych.html

2. general comments
i had a similar experience as a teen. i did a *lot* of drugs, drank, smoked, cut school, got in trouble, acted out sexually etc, etc. my parents sent me to a wilderness and then a tbs. did i get something out of it? sure. it was a better option than winding up in the legal system. do i attribute my "turnaround" to my experiences at a tbs? nope. i can tell you that most of the growth i did there i attribute to my *individual* work with ONE counselor there (who was subsequently fired)...my family and i were discussing this a month back or so...i had asked them numerous times to remove me from the tbs and put me in a regular boarding school and have me see a therapist weekly, which they did not do because they had been convinced that i could not survive without "completing the program." personally, i think that would have been a much better route. i had a really tough time adjusting to the "real world" after my experience and i often felt very estranged and crazy. i still did a lot of the same shit when i got out as i did while i was there...however, i am now in my mid-20s, have repaired my relationship with my parents, and am doing pretty damn well in grad school. i think that the waning of my drug use and my ability to drink responsibly are a direct result of a very common process: maturing. i have seen a therapist off and on in the 7 years since i left the tbs, but i find the therapy (with a licensed *professional*) i have done on the outside to be much more helpful - i am not expected to follow a particular formula or path in order to grow as a person, and no therapist i have seen has  ever screamed at me or mindfucked me or taken a perverse interest in my sexual past. i understand why my parents sent me away but i still do not feel that it was the best solution...and at this point in time, neither do they. we have discussed this extensively and both of my parents regret it. they feel that they were betrayed and misled by the school (although they admit to willful blindness) and have expressed deep regret about their decision. i think that the best thing about me going to a tbs is that when my little brother started acting out they realized that they needed to deal with the situation differently. they both made a concerted effort to be home a lot more, found a therapist (a *professional* woman who had extensive experience working with teens and substance abuse) that he could connect with, took  weekend "bonding" trips with him, found out what his hopes and dreams were and took him to look at universities where he could study and be passionate and had him talk to admissions counselors who told him what he needed to do to get into those kinds of programs. he is an honors student at the university of michigan now...that *sensible*hands-on* and *caring* approach seems to have worked very well for him. and i can guarantee you it was much cheaper and less painful that way.
Quote
On 2005-04-13 13:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I just read this post and would like to write to the original poster. I too was in an extremely similar situation to your daugter 5 years ago. I was extremely depressed, suicidal, I didnt take a shower for weeks on end, I dressed in ratty old cloths, got involved in witchcraft and the whold goth scene, did drugs, drank, smoked cigarettes, basically dropped out of school, had insomnia, ect. I was wondering if she has done LSD. I have had expereinces and have had friends who have had expereinces with LSD where even after months after doing it, you still hear voices, have hallucinations, ect. It could be a possibility.



First off, let me say that I think you are very brave and smart to be trying to get your daugter some help. Whatever method you choose, I think you are a good parent and I can understand your concern. My parents tried everything to help me. Therapy, prescription drugs (antidepressants, antibuse, ect) mental hospitals, grounding me, taking privliges away, ect. I ended up going to Cross Creek Manor. Granted it was 5 years ago, but I know it helped me. Alot of people hate these wwasp programs and for good reason. Some of them are horrible. But I expereinced no abuse there, and I really feel it helped me. I have not been suicidal since, I have been sober since, and I am basically a happy person now. I am married and have a daugter, I am in the process of going back to school, and I have a much better relationship wiht my parents now. I havnt been in the program for a while, so if you consider CCM, do research (unbiased) and they would of course let you go there and check it out. I am only aware of how my program was so I cant give any advice on any of the other ones. If you want to ask me questions feel free. I hope you keep faith in your daughter. She loves you but probably has a hard time lovign herself right now. I know when I was like that, I pretended not to care, but truly deep down I loved my parents, I just took most of my anger out on them because I loved them the most. I know that sounds odd, but true. I hope you can find a place, method, whatever that works for her and you. My heart truly goes out to you. I know if my daughter wsa doing that, I would be beside myself. It is hard. You can do everything "right" and still you kids can become unhappy and unbelieveble embarrased by you. I know the program worked for me because I knew I needed help. I was so unhappy in my life, I didnt even cry about leaving my friends, my home, going to a new place, leavign my family, ect. I cried because I knew my life was so out of control that this was the only way for me. I had tried it all and it didnt work. All I know is when I tried the program, it did work. b



The best of luck to you.

Amanda"
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Offline Timoclea

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« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2005, 08:47:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-13 10:05:00, Antigen wrote:

"My mind keeps going back to this kid. And I keep returning to the same ole', trite and dim witted seeming response. I have no idea what to make of auditory hallucinations.



The stock response is "go to the experts", and I hate ever saying that to anyone for any reason because "experts" are often wrong. But I suppose if my daughter were telling me she heard voices, I'd dive in and read up on auditory hallucinations from every conceivable angle to try and understand.



The thing that keeps bugging me is that this sounds like a sudden change. Is it related to puberty? Or did something horrible happen? Or is this kid just trying on one of the many available paint-by-numbers identities available in today's social marketplace?



It just seems so overwhelming and there are SO many vulters out there waiting to move in on desperate parents.



My trite, cliche, stock response is that a change of scene might do you good. If you're wealthy enough to afford one of these RTCs, maybe you can afford a trip instead. Something really different and interesting. Ask your daughter to help you choose a destination. Not that it'll magically solve all of her problems or yours. But sometimes, just getting away from everything, taking a break and doing/seeing something different can help anybody gain perspective.

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/sittbull.html' target='_new'>Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877


"


Ginger---mental illnesses often have their first onset in adolescents.

Nobody really knows why.  People have speculated that it might have to do with the upheaval--bodily and socially--of the teenage years, but nobody really knows.

They just know it happens.

I'd encourage any skeptic who doesn't think mental illnesses are real and neurological to google SPECT and Dr. Amen and look at the pictures of people's brains that he's got with different disorders.

It's all fine and well to say that there are alternatives to medication, but that doesn't help you a lot if your kid suicides or kills someone else.

People with garden variety, uncomplicated major depression---there are a lot of them, and they are less likely to commit acts of violence than people who aren't mentally ill.

Psychotic people are much, much more likely to commit acts of violence than people who are not mentally ill.

There are a lot *fewer* psychotic people than there are depressed people.

What that means is when you lump the few psychotic people together with the large number of depressed people and average the acts of violence per person committed by all mentally ill people, mentally ill people are no more likely to be violent than people without mental illnesses.

But lumping all mental illness into the same basket hides a very real danger to, and from, psychotic people.

Most---meaning more than half---psychotic people don't commit acts of violence.  But if you think about "most" as meaning "more than half" and think about the risks, it's just a really bad idea to trust a psychotic patient's health and welfare to "alternatives" to medication.

The risks of pursuing alternatives instead of medications, for psychotic people, outweigh the benefits of avoiding potential side effects.

This is especially true when you consider that there are a whole lot of drugs with antipsychotic effects, and that the atypical antipsychotics are less likely to have serious side effects than the old ones (Thorazine, etc.)

Letting somebody walk around actively psychotic---whether it's a child, another loved one, or yourself----just because you're paranoid that the FDA didn't know what they were doing when *they* evaluated the risks and benefits and said the drugs were safe and effective---is a very poor decision.

It's too late to decide going off your meds was a bad idea when you're in jail.

That it's high risk to leave people walking around actively psychotic---dangerous to them and everyone around them---is not opinion.  It's a fact.

Sometimes psychotic symptoms go into remission for awhile, but they can always come back.  Maintenance doses of the drugs are to stop that from happening and are much safer than just completely going off the meds.  If, because of bad side effects, you take a psychotic patient off the meds in the periods while they're in remission, you have to have someone watching them closely to get them back on the meds and stabilized when the remission period ends and the symptoms come back.

The symptoms can abate for awhile--even years, but that doesn't mean you or your loved one no longer has a mental illness.  There is no cure.

It will be nice someday if and when they find a cure, but right now, there isn't one.

Timoclea

It is criminal to steal a purse. It is daring to steal a fortune. It is a mark of greatness to steal a crown. The blame diminishes as the guilt increases

--Schiller (1759-1805)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 09:04:00 PM »
Im a little confused. Are you saying it is possible but unlikely the auditory hallucinations would be caused by LSD? I think that was the point. Considering it is dangerous to test for LSD and I doubt the girl would tell her mom if she did it or not, it is probably not going to be easy to tell if that is why. If she is deffinety clinically depressed, then she should be on meds. But people can be misdiagnosed and i woudl hate to see someone put on meds they dont need. I hope it is something small like that or something that can go away, but I dont know. I just thought Id put that out there as a possibility.

I dont think the program was perfect. I think a transitional period would be good. We had one in my program and it helped me. They also had the college program where girls done with High School could go to community colledge and basically lived at a duplex near the college and near CCM and slept at the facility. i have a few friends who did that and they say it helped tremendously to transition them to the "outside". Thogh I am not sure if it is still around.

I had good therapists at CCM. I learned alot from therapy and no one screamed at me or made me feel uncomfortable. Actually I havnt found a therapist yet who measures up and I have been looking for 5 years! I have found that alot of my friends who didnt go to any program or really do anything but therapy are doing, well, not so good. They arent dead, but they have the same life they had in high school. I mean they are 5 years older now and still the same. I know alot of people go thorough adolecence and come out of it ok. But for me I needed help to get my head on straight. As I have said before, my parents tried many solutions outside the program and none worked for me. I attribute my success to me. Not the program. But I think the program helped me get to the place I wanted to be. I dont think it did it for me, I worked damn hard to be where I am today, but it certainy assisted anyway. I have an unbelievably good relationship wiht my Mom, Dad, and step mom now that I honestly think the program helped us achieve. I can communicate wiht them now. i have had to continue my path outside the program and consider it to be pretty difficult and also very great. I too have some beef wiht the program, but the proincipal is good. I think the tools I learned there were great. I dont think everything about it was superb, but nevertheless, the main principles and the main points of the program made sense to me and helped me.

My parents did try the sensible caring approach, believe you me. They tried talking to me, giving me creative licence so i could occupy my time with art and music and cooking (my passions) and took me on vacations, spent time wiht me, ect. I just wasnt in the place to listen or care at the time. I look back on who I was then and see a different person. Like it was a dream or something. like i could never have done, said, lived those things. But I understand that if the program didnt work for you it would be hard to see why it worked for me. I didnt feel it was painful or damaging to me in anyway. I dont like everything abou tthe program , but I like what i learned there and am greatful to be who I am today. I attribute that to both myself and the program.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 11:15:00 PM »
http://www.wildestcolts.com/john/voices.html
About 2/3 of the way down.

Hearing Voices

One of the "symptoms" of Stephanie's "mental illness" which most frightened her parents was that she "heard voices" inside her head, so-called auditory hallucinations. Jane and Steve were frightened that she might be violent. Psychiatry was justified in responding to this sign of incipient psychosis by labeling Stephanie with a "major mental illness," and giving her Lithium and Risperdal. This was big-time "anti-psychotic" warfare, using two highly suppressive, adult psychiatric drugs. My own experience is that I continually have thoughts that seem to intrude themselves upon me, coming from apparently nowhere. Sometimes these thoughts have a certain potency, either a distressing or frightening content, or an energy and experience like an inner voice speaking inside my head. Virtually everyone I've ever discussed this with reports similar experiences. It's common talk, really, as people say, "Part of me said to do this, but another part wants this," of "something inside just said "Go for it," or "You better not," or whatever. Sometimes it's called, "I heard my dad's voice warning me not to go down that road," or "telling me what a piece of shit I am." The latter is referred to in psychological parlance as a "shame voice." John Bradshaw, in his book, Healing the Shame That Binds You, helped many to understand the damaging and insidious nature of this voice of internalized shame, this inner critic and put-down artist. We all contend with this, and it is usually worse under times of stress. When we've been shamed a lot, and go into psychological overwhelm, this voice, or oftentimes voices, can take on intense emotional charge, even the quality of a so-called "auditory hallucination" bringing one to tears or compelling action which is self-destructive. It can also be other-destructive. Every parent knows what itÕs like to be possessed by shame, to fall out of loving with your child, to see him as "bad,, and deserving of the shame and punishment you wreak upon her. There is no "bad" child, just as there is no "mentally ill" child; there are children who are hurt, emotionally distressed, out-of-control, and needing our help, not our punishment and shame. It's our job to clear that up for ourselves.

I knew that the distress of Stephanie and her family would show up and need to be faced in a positive way as they went through their healing process. Last week, I got a call from Steve saying they'd had a really hard day. Stephanie had apparently decided not to do an assignment, and had lied about it. She got caught, the parents got angry, she got defensive, then overwhelmed, then reported "hearing voices.. All in all, the parents handled it very well, but understandably their fear came upon them. I listened to Stephanie as she told me very clearly about what happened, about her "bad decision," about Steve's anger that scared her, about having to spend the day handling the assignment, about hearing voices. They were several voices, all clear faces of shame -- "You're no good," "You're stupid," "What's wrong with you,"and worse. Many were rather dramatic, some she recognized -- a "mean " boy at school, a parent, a teacher -- others were more like dramatized characters. Let me assure you that this is the stuff of which psychiatric diagnoses such as "psychosis" and "multiple personality disorder" are made. It is also the stuff we all must face to "heal the shame that binds us;" fortunately, Stephanie is quite lucid and most responsive to encouragement. She will do just fine.

It is interesting that our conversation brought forward another significant piece of information with which to work. I was most concerned about avoiding another psychiatric hospitalization, losing ground on the drug withdrawal, and strengthening Stephanie's dangerous identity as a "mental patient." Stephanie, however, revealed that there were several benefits to Shoal Creek -- a comfortable room, lots of attention, a respite from family conflict, good meals, her choice of ice cream -- and that part of her liked the idea of going back. This attraction, of course, felt stronger when things weren't going well at home. Stephanie was not aware that Shoal Creek is also one of two Austin hospitals that routinely practices electroshock on its patients. Although we managed to outlaw electroshock for individuals under age 16 in Texas, it is being done to children in other states. And it most definitely is the "backup treatment," after drugs, of the practitioners of biopsychiatry. The role of "mental patient" is a dangerous one. Regarding this last week with Stephanie's family, the task was to validate how well her parents handled the situation, and to educate them further about this thing of "hearing voices." I wanted to continue the ongoing reinforcement of the fact that her drug withdrawal and emotional recovery were the most important factors in her life right now, and that they were all doing very well. I let them know how delighted I was that this had happened the way it did. I saw the experience as an important step in reclaiming the naturalness of a child and family's life challenges from the dangerous interpretations and resulting actions of Psychiatry. I encourage all of us to be allies to individual children and families and respond positively to children's needs, even while we challenge the bigger picture of Psychiatric Oppression in our society.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2005, 12:15:00 AM »
This is an awesome report on a study that was conducted at Tx Christian University.
Quote "The little girl?s behavior wasn?t the only thing that was transformed after the program. Simple urine tests showed that Julie?s brain chemistry, wildly out of sync on day one, had improved dramatically as well. These findings dazzled the TCU researchers ? that a child could be pulled back from the brink of mental illness by helping her connect with her mother and teaching her to navigate the world."
NO DRUGS.

.....Purvis agreed to coach the Johnsons through an intensive home program if certain conditions were met. The family had to curtail their daughter?s outside activities, and one parent was to remain within three feet of her around the clock for many weeks. With Purvis? help, the Johnsons developed a list of simple rules for Julie and wrote them on a big chart. (Rules like ?Listen to Mom and Dad,? ?No hurts,? ?No growling,? and ?Use my words.?) The couple were explicitly trained in how to respond when their daughter broke any of them. The discipline was both playful and firm and remained intently focused on retraining, not punishing. Positive feedback and encouragement were given whenever possible.

The researcher taught the parents strategies to help the little girl manage her deep-seated trauma, self-regulate her emotional and physical needs, and gain trust in and respect for her adoptive parents. To interrupt violent episodes, the Johnsons learned a physical restraint that transitions into a nurturing cuddling session once the child has calmed down. The goal is to restore a healthy attachment between parents and child through a careful balance of structure and nurturing.

Julie?s behavior improved tremendously during the course of the three-month program. Her outbursts diminished, and her affection and happiness increased. And these gains have held steady. The only medication Julie needs now, nearly a year later, is a sleeping aid to counteract persistent insomnia.

The little girl?s behavior wasn?t the only thing that was transformed after the program. Simple urine tests showed that Julie?s brain chemistry, wildly out of sync on day one, had improved dramatically as well. These findings dazzled the TCU researchers ? that a child could be pulled back from the brink of mental illness by helping her connect with her mother and teaching her to navigate the world. The findings in Julie?s case dovetail with Purvis and Cross? groundbreaking research into the interaction of brain chemistry and behavior, which is already pointing the way to more effective therapies for troubled youngsters. The professors? work ? an unusual combination of applied field work and research ? has begun to draw national and international notice in the adoption field.

All the North Texas parents interviewed for this story emphasized how difficult it was to find the right diagnosis and treatment for their troubled children. (None of the family members? real names is used, to protect their privacy.) Many visited professional after professional, getting conflicting advice and diagnoses, before coming to the TCU program.

The researchers know that when children get aggressive or can?t sit still, their behavior often masks a profound fear or frustration at their inability to articulate feelings. So the camp works to reduce fear and help the youngsters express themselves ? all in a playful, relaxed environment.

First and foremost, the camp emphasizes an atmosphere of ?felt safety.? Purvis and Cross reason that even though parents or counselors know that the children are safe, what?s critical is that these deeply traumatized children experience the safety for themselves.

****
In 2003, Cross and Purvis were asked to provide local support to a Fort Worth family going through a home program led by Virginia neuropsychologist Ronald Federici. This particular home program, involving an at-risk child called Dane, was documented on an NBC Dateline segment.

Biochemistry researcher Gottfried Kellerman, who saw the tv segment and obtained Dane?s neurochemical profile, contacted Cross and Purvis to share his worry that the boy was currently being abused, because the biochemistry levels looked wildly dysfunctional, especially the levels of neurotransmitters ? substances that control excitability, depression, and aggression. The TCU professors assured Dr. Gottfried that in fact Dane?s adoptive home was loving and stable. They concluded that his neurotransmitter levels were still out of whack because of earlier mistreatment. The three got to considering how abuse can leave a legacy in a child?s brain, and a research collaboration was hatched.

Kellerman is CEO of Neuroscience, Inc., a Wisconsin company that produces nutritional supplements designed to boost and optimize neurotransmitter levels in the body. Neurotransmitters interact in a carefully synchronized dance. Some neurotransmitters stimulate us, while others, like serotonin, soothe and calm us down. The right balance is crucial to good mental health and appropriate behavior.

As part of a collaborative study with Neuroscience, the TCU researchers followed the biochemistry of 97 adopted children. Through urine tests, they tracked eight different types of neurotransmitters and mapped those levels against the children?s behavior. Cross and Purvis say that theirs is the first study to track so many neurotransmitters in this context.

Initial results confirmed what they had found with Dane: The vast majority of the adopted children, even while living in a stable new home, still had the neurochemical fingerprint of their early abuse. Physically, their bodies and minds remained overstressed and were not functioning optimally. For example, virtually every child came into the study with low serotonin levels.

In another striking example, the children averaged three times the normal level of phenylethylalanine (PEA). ?At normal levels PEA has to do with creativity and good thinking,? said Purvis, ?but at high elevation it has to do with psychotic disorders.?

Using Neuroscience products, the children received TAAT (targeted amino acid therapy) treatment, which provides nutritional supplements that can be used by the child?s own body to create the specific neurotransmitters they need. ?These are products you could buy under 20 different names in any grocery store,? explained Purvis.

At first the kids? depleted bodies couldn?t handle the flood of needed neurotransmitters. So they were switched to slower release and more individually customized forms of the supplements, which were tweaked as needed

Over the course of the study, the researchers saw that aggressive, delinquent behavior correlated with certain levels of two neurotransmitters (dopamine and histamine). Other conditions, like attention problems and anxiety also could be predicted by neurotransmitter levels.

Purvis marvels about how much they?ve learned about complicated brain chemistry as a result of the TAAT study. ?It?s really an exponential advance,? she said. Cross has documented the initial results in a report that will soon be reviewed by a panel of experts. A follow-up report will examine the interplay between behavioral treatments and the supplements.

Perhaps the most telling result is that 20 percent of the test families were so delighted with the results that they begged for their youngsters to continue supplementation even after the two-month study was finished. These families have been referred to local certified nutritionists to continue treatment.

Read other's experiences at:
http://www.fwweekly.com/content.asp?article=169

If that link doesn't work, try this:
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:3h ... 9%22&hl=en
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2005, 12:44:00 AM »
Hi, It's me the original poster again. I am overwhelmed with the responses I have received thus far. I had no idea I was opening a can of worms with this.
There are so many posts, & I want to thank each of you for your shared expeiences, theories & advice. I would like to touch on some of the posts specifically though...

Antigen, you suggested using the money we would spend on an RTC to go on a vacation to try to help my daughter improve.... We are not wealthy people at all. My husband is a laborer & I am a full time mom, part time worker. We squeak by on less than $36,000.00 a year WITH 3 kids. If we send our daughter to an RTC it will be at a great expense & financial sacrifice. Most of the programs I have seen cost more per month, than we make. We will have to take out loans, borrow money, get second jobs...we will do all of this in an instant if it is what my daughter needs to regain her life. I won't hesitate to mortgage my very soul to help my daughter. I don't think it is as simple as a few weeks on a beach though. If it were that easy, I would be on a plane tonight.

Anonymous wrote of her experiences with LSD...I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that my daughter has never done LSD. She does not drink or use any drugs at all. We have had her tested at the MD office in the past (as a routine exam), I realize the test for LSD is more complicated, but I can rest assured she has never used any drugs. Call it mother's intuition, call it naiveity, but I am sure. LSD is not the cause of her auditory hallucinations.
As a teen I also had a WILD time with drugs..LSD, cocaine, pot, shrooms, pills, alcohol, etc...
My daughter & I talk openly about drugs & the dangers of them. She has seen first hand (extended family) what the ravages of drug addiction look like.

Someone else (I'm sorry I don't know who) had suggested or pasted an article that possibly her "voices" were a "shame voice" or basically an internal monologue. That is also an interesting theory. My husband & I have discussed this at great length. Her voices are not "shaming" her. They direct her to do things (i.e. cut your arm, cut your leg, push the baby down, kill this person, etc...), they also add to & reinforce all of her paranoid delusions. I must say *****SHE IS NOT ACTIVELY HOMICIDAL AT THIS TIME*****, she has been in the past & was hospitalized IMMEDIATELY. She has not been homicidal since. I don't feel like this is an internal monologue or her subconscious. It has a different feel to it.

Ginger & Buzz Kill, yes, these are new symptoms. We have been dealing with all of these behaviors for approx. 7 months. Her depression has been going on longer (about 2 years), but the suicidal ideation/attempt, self mutilation, hallucinations, etc...have been going on for only 7 months. The EXTREME lying & deceit has only been going on for about 2 months.
It is all so sudden. I went to sleep with a "normal" teen ager & woke up with a very disturbed child. Granted this didn't happen over night, but it seems that way to us.
Alot happened during the first few months of the fall of 2004...she left a very small catholic grade school (she had been there 8 years) & began attending a public high school with more than 1400 students. She started her first year of high school, she had her first REAL crush on a boy, she found an entirely new group of peers (none of her classmantes from grade school went to her high school), she started undergoing EXTENSIVE medical testing for an endocrine problem, she began to enjoy the fun & new freedom of high school (going out to movies with friends ONLY, no parents, going to party's, going to dances, etc..), she suffered the death of a very close family member to suicide, she disclosed past sexual abuse, the list goes on & on. Any one of those things is enough for a teenager to have difficulty dealing with, all of those things combined in such rapid succession is too much for anyone to go through. We have looked into a hormonal link to the problems she is having. Her hormone levels are not at all in line. I will spare you the details, but she is missing some VERY important hormones in her body..they simply do not exist. She has VERY HIGH levels of other hormones that are not supposed to be that high.
As I mentioned earlier in a different post, they cannot adjust her hormone levels with medication, because her psychosis spins out of control when ever they adjust anything. She becomes VERY DANGEROUS to herself & others. They can't effectively deal with her in the hospital when she is like this. Her pediatric gyn. & psychiatrist are working together along with an endocrinologist to try & stabilize her.
here is their plan...Try to stabilize the psychosis (i.e. quiet the voices & paranoia), elevate her mood with anti depressants, get her out of the woods so to speak & then VERY SLOWLY & VERY CAREFULLY add 1 hormone at a time. They will monitor her inpatient as they do this. They are not at all sure this is the cause of her mental illness, but it is a theory.
In the mean time we will continue therapy, family, medications, etc... If her symptoms exacerbate we will treat them accordingly.

As I said earlier, this is only a theory...a good one, but who knows?
There is also the theory that depression runs in my family, as does mental illness. I was spared (thankfully), but possibly she was not.

There is the theory that she is genetically predisposed to mental illness & all of these things triggered her. I have read that Borderline can be triggered in adolescence due to hormones, stress, new environment, etc..., This article indicated that Borderline tends to "flair up" at pretty predictable times (start of high school, college, getting married, having 1st child).
If this is what we are seeing, then she needs treatment & tools to better her quality of life.

Timoclea, you are a wealth of information & I thank you for your input on the medical end of the spectrum.
Deborah, you have also given valuable info. & I thank you for your input on the alternative end of the spectrum.

Thanks again everybody.

Concerned Mom

As her parent I have to look at every possible theory & every possible treatment option.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2005, 01:49:00 AM »
Oh, I forgot to add....

7 months ago when all of this started, my daughter under went what is called a "progesterone challenge" (this was a test performed by her ped. gyn & endo. doc)... she was given LARGE amounts of progesterone for 10 days. After the 10th day, you sit back & see how your body will respond (their is medical neccessity to this, I will spare you the gory details).
My daughter took the progesterone for the prescribed 10 days & then stopped. 3 days after stopping she began self mutilating & having suicidal ideations. I told her ped gyn about this & their response was basically "bullshit"...it is not caused by this test & you need to take care of business at home (bad mom).
After a 2 weeks or so, things settled back down. She was still depressed, but not actively self mutilating or having suicidal ideations.
Then they wanted to start her on Hormone replacement therapy...she started & with in 5 days her symptoms started again...suicidal, cutting,deeper depression, etc...
I again called the ped gyn & she again said NO WAY.
My daughter's psychiatrist discontinued all hormonal meds. & told us to steer clear of them in the future without his consent & constant monitoring. We have steered clear of them, but the symptoms persist.
One of my daughter's therapist indicated that there could be a link here (it could be coincidence)..& if all of her troubles, psychosis, etc... have been triggered by the hormones, that it is unfortunate, because it would not be reversible. The neurotransmitters, neural pathways, brain chemicals, etc... had been pemanenetly altered.Once the switch has been flipped, you can't un flip it. She has had an MRI & a CT Scan of her brain.
 Yes we can improve it, treat it, make it easier to deal with...but never un do it. Never "cure" her.
Again, This is just another theory out there...it could all be coincidental.

In all the research I have done about it, It sounds a whole lot like post partum psychosis (not regular post partum depression)(no she was ot pregnant, or have an abortion).
The biggest difference between my daughter & post partum is, post partum psychosis is reversible.
I have tried to research hormone induced depression, hormone induced psychosis...no luck. I can't find anything out there. Most doctors won't talk to me about it, because they think it could end in a law suit if I find the right information.
I don't want to sue anybody, I want answers & i want my daughter to get better.
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2005, 08:04:00 AM »
One more tidbit, based on my recent personal experience.
I'm peri-menopausal. I have resisted getting onto the estrogen/progesterone see-saw- trying to balance these two hormones correctly.

Here's what my doc told me, fwiw.

The majority of women have problems with estrogen dominance, for a number of reasons.
The body produces hormones when needed. When no longer needed they should normally be eliminated via the liver. If the liver is not working optimally and those hormones cycle through the body all month, you will have problems.
Bottomline, treat the liver so it can eliminate hormones when they are no longer needed.
I am taking Emulsified Cod Liver Oil and have had excellent results!!! Which also is good for the brain.

There are many concerns re: HRT. Equally complicated, in terms of balancing is fiddling with neurotransmitters- seritonin- even when you are using a natural supplement like 5 HTP. If the seritonin doesn't cross the BBB and builds up in the body, one risks developing cardiovascular disease. Too much estrogen, breast/ovarian cancer.
There are safer ways to address these issues.

There are other causes of estrogent dominance as well. Do a search for xeno-estrogens, if you're interested in discovering where she may be acquiring additional, and harmful, estrogen from the foods she's eating and/or the environment. Two big offenders- food microwaved in plastic and certain foods that are canned. Don't take this lightly. This was discovered in Florida when they noticed male alligators had been feminized due to some toxic waste that had been dumped in this particular swamp. It also explains why so many men are growing breast and have low sperm count and why women are having a higher incidence of breast/ovarian cancer.

My research shows that this modern life is slowing killing us and making us crazy.

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2005-04-14 05:22 ]
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Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2005, 11:40:00 AM »
Dear Concerned Mom,
  My heart goes out to you. Sounds like you know more than anybody about your daughter's situation. THAT I can relate to. One of my daughters was critically ill for an extended period. As good and competent and diligent as her medical care providers have been, there is just NOthing like having an advocate right there, helping w/ communication, reading up on everything that's done or even discussed. Sounds like you're right on top of that.

  Now, none of us are medical/psyche professionals. Deb and Timoclea are both pretty knowledgable and have probably given you some good leads on valuable info. But your original question was about RTC. I'm not a professional on that either. But here's the upshot, neither are they! The only reasonably well done study on that method of treatment was done fairly recently by NIDA. And it concluded that RTC style therapy outcomes range from useless to harmful. Bear that in mind along with your own common sense about the potential harm that can come from yet another upheaval, being removed from family and friends (good or bad, new or old) and normal life.

As hard as things are for your family now, putting aside the unbelievable promises you may hear and read from various edcons and program operators (because they're too good to be true and actually are not true), you're probably doing the best that can be done already. There is no magic. If you can't handle your daughter's needs at home w/ the support you describe from local health and mental health professionals, then there's NO chance that strangers in some other state w/ no real expertise will do a better job.

Most of these places that we discuss around here have a nifty trick for dealing w/ mentally ill kids. They stick them in solitary or some other highly restrictive environment, lie to you outright about how the kid is doing and simply don't allow them to talk to you till they tow the line. Though the brochures and sales reps will gladly tell you that this is just a matter of a couple of weeks, it can often drag on for months and months. I've heard of no contact for over a year in some cases.

If that doesn't work, why they just blame the kid. The kid refused to work the program and so, when they kick them out or envoke the "exit plan", it's all the kid's fault and you, having paid the bill, attended the seminars and put your whole family in hock for years, can view yourself as blameless and enjoy a whole chorous of other families to reenforce that view of things.

On that one simple question about RTCs, my simple answer is RUN! They're not equipped to handle a situation such as you describe. And they'll lie convincingly about it because they truely believe that their mojo is a cure for whatever ails ya'.

On the brighter side, this girl is only 14. She's still growing up. If the medical professionals were wrong about the cuase of her problems, they may well be wrong about its permanency as well. Just keep questioning and reading up. But don't send the girl away to a place where you can't check on her, the facility and anyone who has contact w/ her daily.

Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.

--Scott Tillinghast

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2005, 01:35:00 PM »
I will second all this.

Been there, Done That

Quote
On 2005-04-14 08:40:00, Antigen wrote:

"Dear Concerned Mom,

  My heart goes out to you. Sounds like you know more than anybody about your daughter's situation. THAT I can relate to. One of my daughters was critically ill for an extended period. As good and competent and diligent as her medical care providers have been, there is just NOthing like having an advocate right there, helping w/ communication, reading up on everything that's done or even discussed. Sounds like you're right on top of that.



  Now, none of us are medical/psyche professionals. Deb and Timoclea are both pretty knowledgable and have probably given you some good leads on valuable info. But your original question was about RTC. I'm not a professional on that either. But here's the upshot, neither are they! The only reasonably well done study on that method of treatment was done fairly recently by NIDA. And it concluded that RTC style therapy outcomes range from useless to harmful. Bear that in mind along with your own common sense about the potential harm that can come from yet another upheaval, being removed from family and friends (good or bad, new or old) and normal life.



As hard as things are for your family now, putting aside the unbelievable promises you may hear and read from various edcons and program operators (because they're too good to be true and actually are not true), you're probably doing the best that can be done already. There is no magic. If you can't handle your daughter's needs at home w/ the support you describe from local health and mental health professionals, then there's NO chance that strangers in some other state w/ no real expertise will do a better job.



Most of these places that we discuss around here have a nifty trick for dealing w/ mentally ill kids. They stick them in solitary or some other highly restrictive environment, lie to you outright about how the kid is doing and simply don't allow them to talk to you till they tow the line. Though the brochures and sales reps will gladly tell you that this is just a matter of a couple of weeks, it can often drag on for months and months. I've heard of no contact for over a year in some cases.



If that doesn't work, why they just blame the kid. The kid refused to work the program and so, when they kick them out or envoke the "exit plan", it's all the kid's fault and you, having paid the bill, attended the seminars and put your whole family in hock for years, can view yourself as blameless and enjoy a whole chorous of other families to reenforce that view of things.



On that one simple question about RTCs, my simple answer is RUN! They're not equipped to handle a situation such as you describe. And they'll lie convincingly about it because they truely believe that their mojo is a cure for whatever ails ya'.



On the brighter side, this girl is only 14. She's still growing up. If the medical professionals were wrong about the cuase of her problems, they may well be wrong about its permanency as well. Just keep questioning and reading up. But don't send the girl away to a place where you can't check on her, the facility and anyone who has contact w/ her daily.

Step 1. We came to understand that the government is powerless over people's private use of drugs and that the War on Drugs was making the government's life unmanageable.

--Scott Tillinghast


"
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Offline spots

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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2005, 02:28:00 PM »
Quote
... They stick them in solitary or some other highly restrictive environment, lie to you outright about how the kid is doing and simply don't allow them to talk to you till they tow the line. Though the brochures and sales reps will gladly tell you that this is just a matter of a couple of weeks, it can often drag on for months and months. I've heard of no contact for over a year in some cases.


If that doesn't work, why they just blame the kid. The kid refused to work the program and so, when they kick them out or envoke the "exit plan", it's all the kid's fault and you, having paid the bill, attended the seminars and put your whole family in hock for years, can view yourself as blameless and enjoy a whole chorous of other families to reenforce that view of things.


...But don't send the girl away to a place where you can't check on her, the facility and anyone who has contact w/ her daily.


Also a Been There-Done That survivor, whose child experienced this exact situation, including the nearly-a-year without contact with the outside world, including parents.

On a very simple gut level (way simpler than the psychological problems you are dealing with), a great strength you can give to your child is...Just Be There for Her.  A constant behind all the attempts you and her medical professionals make is the fact that YOU are doing something, not off-loading, especially to rank amateurs with an evil bag of tricks.  

One of my child's (custodial grandaughter, actually) greatest struggles now, 18 months after returning from an abusive RTC and coming to live with us, is the crippling feeling of lack of trust and "how could she do this to me?" response to her mother's actions. The mother cannot admit she made a mistake, a lot because that mistake was an "informed" one, a choice between her new husband/The Wicked Stepfather and her daughter.  

Everyone wants a parent.  If you understand that that parent is a toxic relationship for you, it still does not lessen the wish for a parent.  As Grandpa and I work to help our kid reaffirm her goodness (after a good job of character assasination by the RTC for her formative 14th year), our stumbles and ups-and-downs are always cushioned by the fact that we are there for her.  It means a lot.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2005, 03:09:00 PM »
To Concerned Mom:
Without getting into the issue to medicate or not to medicate, let me express one concern with a RTC and a child suffering with mental illness. The whole premise of RTC therapy revolves around conformity and obeying the rules above all else. The completing the different levels will depend upon her following all rules from sleep to food restrictions. (Obviously each facility has different rules I choose those as examples only). This environment is IMHO especially unhealthy for a child with more than an attitude and experimenting with alcohol. I have seen first hand the damage my RTC did to a friend who had schizophrenia. She was told repeatedly to "quit trying to get attention". She often said she felt crazy and different from us (her illness never was diagnosed while she was in the program) to which she was told to "get over it she wasn't that unique". Believe me her parents were told she just wasn't willing to comply. Since they couldn't see her without supervision they had no idea what was really going on.

Mental illness can not be addressed and treated by rules and conformity. I bet none of your doctors have made her stand in a line with other ill patients for an hour until they got it completely straight. Or told her if she didn't quit talking about her imaginary voices her food would be restricted to nearly starvation. Sounds ridiculous I know but this was how my RTC wanted to help my friend. Most simply are not equipped to deal with true mental illness. They are holding tanks for rebellious kids and fed up parents about 95% of the time.
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Offline The Liger

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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2005, 07:08:00 PM »
This is a portion from a sworn statement made by a survivor of a "Christian" behavior modification facility.  I think it shows how these facilities deal with children who have legitimate mental problems:

"There was a girl who I wasn?t supposed to notice because she was on buddy as well [that] had gone mentally crazy.  When I first arrived she was fine.  I can remember her sitting in the bathroom thinking that she was talking on the phone to her family.  For about two weeks she was hel[d] in what they called the closet area.  They only fed her cold baked beans and cold oatmeal.  They let her shower twice a week. [One night in chapel] she started talking and rambling on and on.  One of the Helpers told her she needed to be quiet.  She wasn?t listening.  The staff told about three girls to sit on her.  While they were sitting on her she kept saying, ?
  • h my God? over and over.  The girls were told by staff to sit on her harder and restrain her from talking.  When her parents finally did pick her up one of the staff ladies told me that upon going home she was admitted to the psychiatric ward."
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