Author Topic: Parents, please consider this  (Read 15882 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Parents, please consider this
« Reply #60 on: April 19, 2005, 10:00:00 AM »
or DOUBLETHINK?

Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs
in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.


http://www.orwelltoday.com/doublethink.shtml
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #61 on: April 19, 2005, 01:51:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-18 14:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Well, intersting post. They watched you go to the bathroom? Did many kids cut themselves at your facility? I cant recall any self mutilation. I remember one of my roomates locked herself up in the bathroom and drank withc hazel and shampoo. But not many self mutilations. Now as much of an advocate I am of pot, it is possible to have marijuana withdrawls.

Yes, they watched us every moment on first phase. By "they" I mean kids on the higher phases of the program.

A lot? Define a lot. I remember some people carving signs and words into their arms w/ fingernails or any little sharp thing they could find. And the stock response was to accuse them in harsh and loud terms of avoiding themselves and of the "crime" of seeking attention. Even the girl who was there for having once had a beer was supposedly anguishing over her deep shame and withdrawal from the "druggie lifestyle". Yes, it's possible to have mild withdrawals from MJ. But not suicide and suicidal ideation and self harm. Those things happened frequently in Straight because of the "treatment", not because of any problems the kids had coming in.

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But when my husband and I stopped smoking pot when I got pregnant, he suffered HUGE mood swings, he was depressed, ect. I think it was more his psychological addiction as he uses pot to ignore his feelings about his past. But I have never seen him like that except when he dosnt smoke. He has been smoking alsmost every day since he was 12 so that probably has alot to do wiht it too. Im sure more chronic users expereince stronger effects when they stop.

Or he could be successfully treating some PTSD. Or maybe he just enjoys it. It's not necessarily a dysfunction.

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Even if my boss told me I didnt hav eot do somathing, I woudl do it to show inititative and to show I am reliable.

Whereas I would do it, not to show anybody anything, but because I wanted it done; because it's my job and what's worth doing is worth doing well. By the same token, I would not waste my time for long doing busy work just to make some little tin god feel powerful. I'd find another employer pretty quick; one who sees dollar signs in an employee who takes authentic pride and a sense of proprietorship in their work and sees the sense and self interest in paying for good service.

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In the past...

Jeeze! Is it rap time again? Sorry, I am making fun of you and I know that's mean. But this is just SO like a Straight rap. To paraphrase "In my past, I was horrible in these specific ways ______. Then I came to the Program and learned that I was horrible and chose to be good in these ways ______. And now things are much better, but I'm always looking over my shoulder in case those bad old ways of my past try to get me again!"

Look, the things you describe, the self doubt and all, really are a normal part of growing up. Granted, it's much harder if you don't have adults in your life in whom you can confide and on whom you can depend for unconditional support. But that's not an indication of dysfunction in a kid. That's an indication of slack or illequipped parents.

Before I went into the Program, I remedied that problem by seeking out older teenagers and adults who would give me the kind of support I needed. I didn't always strike gold on the first try. But I was doing OK for myself.

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Synannon method?

Yes. Look into the history of the Synanon Church. It's not hard to find, as the whole thing spiraled out of control, resulting in major national headlines following the attempted murder of a lawyer who represented a member who was trying to get out of that cult.

CEDU is said to stand for Chuck E. Dederich University. Provo Canyon was founded by former Synanon/CEDU people. And the WWASP programs started out from Provo offshoots. Or so the story goes. One aspect of the Synanon method that I can tell you to a dead certainty has carried through to modern day CCM is the basic rap structure and the basic structure of what they called "The Game" and you call a seminar.

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I agree. If your life isnt out of control to the point where you feel you need help, the program is goign to be inneffective.

And if you're at a crisis point in your life and someone comes along to convince you that you're hopeless and can't possibly find your bearing w/o drastic treatment, you'll believe it. But it's not necessarily true.

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I feel the freedom I got in the higher phases helped alot. but it wasnt enough. the college program let the girls go basically live in the real world. No uniforms, no bed time, no what oyu cna and cannot watch or listen to, ect. They went grocery shopping, went to college, lived at a duplex. the only thing similar to the program was they slept there and had group Mon-Fri. But group was more laid back and the rules were too. Ask Ashley. She did it and said it helped her alot.

What I take from this is the less Program influence the better. The program is stone soup made w/ toxic minerals.

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True they probably think it is fine and dandy to do one thing and tell others not to do that. they probably dont even care about the recovery that happens in the program. They just want ot make money.

No, I'm convinced that they truely believe. But they're kidding themselves. It's very like the way a wife beater will force/cajole his wife to constantly tell him how much she loves and needs him, how great he is and how worthless she would be without him. He believes it. He needs to believe it. She believes it to some extent. But it's still not true.

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I agree that seminars can help.

Agree w/ whom? I never said that. I don't think the seminars are all that healthy.

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I had good experiences wiht mine and thought even if I wasnt in the program I probably woudl go to just learn something new.

Ok, I'll grant you that the seminars are effective in making participants believe something. But they're intentionally structured to NOT arrive at those conclusions by anything like measured reason. The conclusions are foregone and success is measured by the participants' acceptance of those forgone conclusions. (i.e. me->past->bad->Program->good... as long as I keep rejecting everything I thought I knew before I received the special enlightenment of the Program)

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I do have friends who talk to me abou tgheir problems and get negative, but I try to help them come up wiht a solution. Thats anothe rporblem I had and still kind of do, is I caretake peopel alot. I try to make them better or happier and sacrafice my own happines for them. i have been workign on that particularly wih tmy husband and my friends. But I learned how not to caretake in the program. It is so important for me to look out for myself first. If I feel I am not in a good place, it owuld be wrong of me and wrong for me to try to help anyone else. Does that make sense?

No! That does not make any more sense to me now than it did 20 years ago when I heard it over and over again in Group. Taking care of the people you love is not a dysfunction or a fault! It's how we build a family, a social net. It's a good thing, an attribute, generousness of spirit! And, except for in the Program's warped culture, is usually well rewarded in normal human society!

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We had group therapy every day and individual therapy 1-2 times a week, depending. Is that not what other places do? I know perrigaud said at CASA she had no therapy at all.

Perri, you were at CASA and never wittnessed any abuse??? Did you sleep through it?

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My therapist told me of the family rep and my moms dissagreement. it was about her not being able to talk to me on the phone. Finally she got to after arguing wiht my therapist and rep for two weeks.


Yeah, that's a common complaint. Here's some discussion about a problem from early last year

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=9&Sort=D

And there's a mother posting lately as FightingIrish who's looking for help and advice to get her kid out of CCM for the very same reason:
http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?m ... &user=2410

Everybody's lost just waiting to be found. Everyone's a thought just waiting to fade.
-- Billy Corgan of The Smashing Pumpkins

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #62 on: April 19, 2005, 03:40:00 PM »
EST and Lifespring and Sensitivity Training are cults.  The seminars, being copied from them, are cult indoctrination.

When I was getting a degree in psychology from Georgia Tech, I took a class (intro. to psych. testing) from a professor emeritus who was the former head of the psychology department at Georgia Tech.

He had also done a great deal of work for the military and industry.

He was an eminent scholar and a brilliant man who never made emphatic statements that he couldn't back up, who virtually always qualified any statement he made with any even minimally necessary scientific caveat.

His class was taught simultaneously as a graduate and undergraduate level class.  The only difference was the graduate students had to do one more report than we undergrads.

He stated, unequivocally, as an aside in class that the "Sensitivity Training" of the 1970's had done a great deal of psychological harm to a great many people.  When we asked how, he said they had stirred up a lot of emotions and feelings and memories that they then had no clue how to resolve, and that that was very damaging.

To the extent that the WWASPS seminars are "Sensitivity Training" all over again, and it is crystal clear that they are, I trust this eminent expert's highly educated opinion that they are psychologically harmful and *for NOBODY*.

To the extent that people who have been through them advocate them to others even after having been told that all the experts in treating psychological casualties and in how the human mind works say that these practices are *harmful*, I infer that those people have been inducted into a cult and are still in that cult mindset.

I infer this because no decent person would recommend that other people participate in something that could do them serious, long-term if not permanent harm.

While I have sympathy for people who have been captured by a cult and had their minds imprisoned within its destructive framework, I cannot allow them to attempt to recruit others into the cult without my speaking up and denouncing that cult for the extremely harmful, deceptive, unethical, and abusive thing that it is.

This includes anyone who has ever been through the WWASPS seminars and still recommends them to others as a positive thing.

WWASP cult members/victims are, in my highly educated and well-informed opinion, ultimately as inherently dangerous as the TM'ers, the Moonies, the Scientologists, the Elizabeth Clair Prophet sycophants, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Branch Davidians, the former Heaven's Gate cult, the Hare Krishnas, or the former People's Temple cult.

I would *strongly* encourage anyone even remotely considering enrolling their child in a WWASPS facility to purchase and read this book:

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/books/r ... gbonds.htm

(_Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves_ by Steve Hassan)

If you can dredge up the money for WWASPS tuition, then for the sake of your whole family's mental health, in case you're wrong, you can dredge up $25 and a few hours to read a book.

If you still choose to use WWASPS (or you're not the custodial parent and the other parent so chooses), make a safety pact before your child goes:

1) Because seminars are required to go home, participation is coerced even if they say it's not.  Because of deliberate peer pressure by the "trainers" that your child will be very vulnerable to, any secrecy oaths are coerced and therefore not binding.

2) Just like you always told your child to tell you if an adult touched their private parts, even if the adult made them promise not to and they had to promise to get away safely, if your child makes any secrecy promise, anything the facility wants them to keep a secret is someone touching the private parts of their mind and is the kind of secret you *tell*---in this case, that they tell you, as their parent, that they've been told to keep a secret from them and everything they've been told to keep secret.

But the most important thing is not to go.

Intelligence is not protection from cult indoctrination.  Often intelligent people are *very susceptible* to being indoctrinated into cults, and may stay in the cult all their lives until they die of old age.

If WWASPS-required seminars are based on EST, Sensitivity Training, and/or Lifespring, as they *strongly* appear to be from the link--earlier in the thread--to the husband and wife account of their seminar experience, then WWASPS is a very dangerous cult.

Do not take the risk that you or your child will be sucked into it and never escape.

Timoclea
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #63 on: April 19, 2005, 03:58:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-19 12:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

2) Just like you always told your child to tell you if an adult touched their private parts, even if the adult made them promise not to and they had to promise to get away safely, if your child makes any secrecy promise, anything the facility wants them to keep a secret is someone touching the private parts of their mind and is the kind of secret you *tell*---in this case, that they tell you, as their parent, that they've been told to keep a secret from them and everything they've been told to keep secret.


After I got out of Straight and my dad had defected physically, he was still in the process of defecting mentally. He once asked me in an accusatory, but also sincerely interested tone, why, if all these horrible things were going on I had not told him at the time. I reminded him that he would have reported me to staff if I had. And he would have, too, and he knew it.

Remember that the parents are required to attend seminars before having any regular communication w/ their kids. There's a reason for that.

The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #64 on: April 19, 2005, 08:42:00 PM »
How familiar is this

http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=D#94917

When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #65 on: April 19, 2005, 09:49:00 PM »
Man, ginger... your parents were really f'd up.  Do you have a relationship with them today?
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Offline Timoclea

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« Reply #66 on: April 19, 2005, 10:21:00 PM »
Did anybody ever notice how similar "Synanist" is to "Satanist"?

Timoclea

What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.
-- Sigmund Freud

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #67 on: April 19, 2005, 11:34:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-19 18:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Man, ginger... your parents were really f'd up.  Do you have a relationship with them today?  "


I got along great w/ my dad after that one conversation. Haven't spoken w/ my mom in years. The point is, though, that, just like Straight, WWASP encourages parents to inform staff on their kids. And just like good, "strong" Straight parents, WWASP parents often do inform on their kids.

I don't believe in Jesus.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Timoclea

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« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2005, 04:08:00 PM »
My friend that went to Swift River---she got to stay at a hotel with her parents over Christmas.

She asked her mom if she could call her best friend and wish her Merry Christmas.  Her mom and stepdad said no.  It was against the Swift River rules.

She asked her dad when she was with him.  Her dad said yes and she called and got her friend's answering machine and told the answering machine Merry Christmas.

Her dad then turned informer on her to Swift River and said "it wouldn't have been right" to *not* inform on her.

Swift River, according to her friend (who is, by the way, legally adult, another girl, a college student, and as clean cut as they come), put her in solitary for *three days* for this and made her write a fifty page paper, by hand, explaining why calling a clean-cut friend on Christmas was "wrong."

So Swift River also obviously encourages parents to inform on their kids to the program.

And the parents are obviously so brainwashed that, just like the communist youth under Stalin, they don't see anything morally wrong about turning informer on family members for minor things that will garner draconian punishments.

That's just plain evil.

But most people, we know from the Milgram experiments, will do horribly evil things if an authority figure tells them they "must."

Which is a sad commentary on the lack of humanity of humanity.

How could someone inform on his own family for anything short of rape, murder, child molestation or grand larceny?

How could anyone be so morally bankrupt and gullible to buy the lie that turning informer on your family is "for their own good"?

But program parents are among the more gullible percentage of humanity by definition.  And self-selected for the ability to rationalize that the end justifies the means.

Sick.

Timoclea

Faith is the commitment of one's consciousness to beliefs for which one has no sensory evidence or rational proof. A mystic is a man who treats his feelings as tools of cognition. Faith is the equation of feeling with knowledge.
--Ayn Rand, Russian-born author

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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2005, 05:20:00 PM »
If intellect isnt protection from brainwashing, then is education? I certainly would give wide berth to anything that feels like a seminar by now, or anything masquerading as something else that is one.

And BTW - Satanists rarely if ever actually have a spiritual faith in "satan" or ANY deity, its just a symbol of individualism and personal power/freedom/responsibility/actualization. Satanists would probably be on *your* side about how bullshit these seminars are. They'd just take it a step farther and call all religions cults and say God is just the biggest rap-leader ofa ll.

Not being a satanist, I don't have much more to say about them.  :grin:

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2005, 05:24:00 PM »
Quote
She asked her dad when she was with him. Her dad said yes and she called and got her friend's answering machine and told the answering machine Merry Christmas.

Her dad then turned informer on her to Swift River

Giving her permission and then ratting on her?  That's more than brainwashed; that's totally fucked up.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #71 on: April 20, 2005, 10:16:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-04-20 14:20:00, Nihilanthic wrote:

"If intellect isnt protection from brainwashing, then is education? I certainly would give wide berth to anything that feels like a seminar by now, or anything masquerading as something else that is one.



And BTW - Satanists rarely if ever actually have a spiritual faith in "satan" or ANY deity, its just a symbol of individualism and personal power/freedom/responsibility/actualization. Satanists would probably be on *your* side about how bullshit these seminars are. They'd just take it a step farther and call all religions cults and say God is just the biggest rap-leader ofa ll.



Not being a satanist, I don't have much more to say about them.  :grin:

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

"


The best insullation against brainwashing is prior preparation for the particular cult.  That is, to be told or find out what the cult is going to tell you, and then to be told or find out what the counter-arguments are against that position---in ADVANCE.  It doesn't work if it's not in advance.

The other thing you have to know is how brainwashing works.

Someone brainwashing you is going to try to control the millieu--they're going to try to exert control over your environment, and then they're going to try to isolate you from other communication and control as much of your communication as possible (hence the no talking rules at seminars and in early phases of teen POW camps), and then they're going to try to get you to agree to something open ended--open ended in some tricky non-obvious way that seems reasonable and use that initial agreement as a foot in the door (if they get you to agree to something small, and then something else small, pretty soon you'll agree to anything), they're going to deprive you of sleep and either deprive you of sensory input *or* bombard you with sensory input to disorient you (or do other things to disorient you), and they're going to try to get you to do at least one small thing (and then little by little larger things) that violate your code of ethics.

If they get you to violate your code of ethics or morals in little, seemingly insignificant ways, then the next increased thing seems like no big deal, and so on.  They incrementally push your limits.

They take advantage of all the Dom tricks Doms use on Subs in BDSM, but with none of the negotiation, no scruples about coercion, no ethics, and no respect for hard limits.

They in fact want to push past so many of your hard limits and get you to compromise them with the little by little technique that you get totally confused about what your moral or ethical code is anymore---at which point they can implant theirs and freeze it in place with implanted phobias.

That's where the "knowing what they're going to tell you and knowing the counter arguments" comes in, by the way.  What a substantial part of that is is a mental defense against the particular irrational implanted phobias the particular cult uses to freeze their implanted cult personality and its implanted worldview on top of your own, while the original you is locked somewhere deep down underneath, screaming.

The early deprogrammers tended to have bad results because they would succeed at reviving the original personality, but the cult personality would still be there and just be suppressed---the cult-induced dissociation in the person's personality was still there, and the person had been "deprogrammed" but not healed.  Which meant they were still in a world of hurt, and weren't really able to think for themselves again---anything that felt like part of the cult personality would be closed off as "bad."

The later generation of treatment for people exiting from cults is similar to the treatment for multiple personality disorder.  You bring the suppressed original personality to the surface and  through the therapeutic process help the person evaluate and process what aspects of the cult personality they like and want to keep and which ones that they can do without, thank you very much.  The end result is a whole person with a re-integrated personality who can think for themselves again and choose for themselves what they want to do and be.

Didn't you say you're a Dom?

Unless you're a switch, I think you'd not only notice the mind games, I think they'd just piss you off.

Timoclea
(Oh, btw--I'm Wiccan.  Since we perpetually have to deal with ignorant people who confuse us with the other guys, we have to know their general doctrine to be able to point out why we aren't them and they aren't us.)
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #72 on: April 20, 2005, 10:21:00 PM »
Oh, and the fact that the brainwashers are essentially playing BDSM games (and the seminar instructors are probably getting a hell of a lot of personal sexual gratification from it) means that the blissful endorphin release is let loose on those poor, uninformed people convincing them that they're having a "transcendent, transformative" experience.

When all they're really doing is having an endorphin high from a fairly common alternative sexual lifestyle practice.

But then just as people mistake sex for love, it's not all that uncommon for people to mistake an endorphin high for a stunning revelation.

Timoclea
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2005, 08:38:00 PM »
Antigen,
Its taken me a long time to get back to you, but here it is. It is true that people develop patterens in life. they learn to deal wiht things in a certain way. In order to stop that learning something different is a good thing to do. Not to replace the old behavior, but to work wiht all knowledge to come up with who you are. It woudl be stupid of me not to use everything Ive learned to make a decision on what I believe. If I just listened to one side of the story and made beliefs on that, that woudl be really ignorant.

I saw several as in 2-3 girls who would self mutilate, but it was always the same few.

When you say successfuly treating some Post Traumatci Stress disorder, do you mean by smoking pot he is dealing wiht that stress? Now, I am all for people having the right to smoke. It is not a very dangerous drug and is deffinetly less dangerous than Cigarettes or alcohol. But running away from his problems by smoking isnt helping him. All it does is makes him more and more depressed about it. That is his ONLY way of dealing wiht his past. and if it wasnt illegal, hey Id be all for it. But i lost him for a few months to jail for driving under the influence of pot and I dont want that to happen again.

It is important to show a boss you are interested in keeping your job and even moving up in position. Hard work does pay off. If you arent self employed then you have to work up the ladder so to speak. Now if I wasnt getting paid alot for workign extra hard, then screw that. But if you are getting paid generously and stuff then you have a good reason to work hard.

I say in the past because I am not the same person I was 1, 2 even 6 years ago. Anytiem I refer to myself as in the past I mean anytime before a year ago.

My parents just got here so i have to go.
amanda
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2005, 11:16:00 PM »
Ok, Im back.
Anyway, like I was saying, when I say in the past, Im refering to anytime before like 1 year ago. I cinsider my time at CCM and even after CCm my past, because I still have the same stuff to deal with as I did before CCM. I also never said I considered my actions or myself horrible. As Ive said before, everything Ive done before durign and after the program has shaped who I am and Im not regretful or ashamed of it. I am greatful for my past because if I didnt go through anything, I would not be the person I am today, and I consider myself ot be a cool person. My past is who I am. I can never turn my back on it. I am not looking back to make sure i dont screw up again or anything. I always knew before the program that the things I was doing were unhealthy for me. The only thing the program taught me about it was to deal wiht it in a different way. Sometimes those ways worked and sometimes not.

See the problem with my personality is I dont try to find peopel who wil help me. I try to find peopel who will accept my behavior and attitude and not try to encourage me to change. When i am wanting to be in a certain state, I dont seek help. That was basically me before i wne tot he program. I also think that goign to the program was not the key thing for me. It helped me to see that i needed to search out different means of help, but I searched for that after the program too.

So the story goes? Is there a site you can refer me to or a book i can read about it?

Sometimes it is true. Is that so hard to believe considering everyone is different?

the less program structure the better, yes.

I was agreeign wiht others who say the seminars can help. In an unstructered program environment do you consider seminars unhealthy?

Taking care of someone is one thing. Accepting an unhealthy person and letting them treat you badly over and over again is another. When I was refering to "caretaking" people, I was refering to when I spend more time focusing on their problems and their issues and not enough time focusing on myself. I get lost in another persons unhappiness and dont focus enough on my own. I hope you can see how that is not good for me or anyone. Like I have a friend who continuously complains abou thte same thing over an over again when I talk to them. I like helping them as much as I can, but it can be very draining. Too much of that is unhealthy. Building a family soly on one persons happiness is unhealthy period.

Amanda
"A man may learn wisdom, even from a foe."
-Aristophanes
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »