It is ok to relapse

[Anonymous]

That I get.  But my point is that the poster who made the subsequent poster "puke" obviously did get something good from being involved with this program.  

Are you going to take on the role of telling this person that his/her experience was "wrong" because it doesn't match your preconceived notions?

Are you so doctrinaire that you cannot even consider that this person gained something positive, motivation, energy, hope, whether you approve or not?

Your premise is that somebody might reasonably "feel sick" at the idea that this person got a postive experience out of this program?? no, I don't get that, it sound like "Get on the bus and buy into the party line of hating AARC, whether it matches your truth or not".  

Personally, I absolutely do not buy that approach.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-25 17:23:00, Antigen wrote:

"Therapy is like sex. Coerced therapy is like rape. Rapists evidently get something positive out of rape. And hearing them talk about it fondly makes some people feel sick. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, most people would agree that there's something very wrong with going all dewey eyed and nastalgic about it.

"

Ginger, I feel saddest of all for you. In your case, at least there is some justification for all your hate and bitterness. Sadly, you are ill informed about the similarities between Straight and AARC. I sure hope you get some peace one day. Those ugly demons of yours must be aweful to carry around. I know I can't convince you of anything, but I still think you are worth more than all that rage, especially when it is focused on an oraganization that isn't what you think.

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-25 19:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

Are you going to take on the role of telling this person that his/her experience was "wrong" because it doesn't match your preconceived notions?

No, I'm going to tell you that it's in bad taste, to say the least to celebrate events that others found to be horrible and traumatic.

You have been spurned! Accept that. It's not an indication of mental illness in the person who has rejected you. Quit trying to force your saccharine epitaph about how wonderful AARC was and how the dearly deceased, if he had not done himself in, would vehemently agree with you. Now that is sickening!

In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-25 19:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

"


Ginger, I feel saddest of all for you. In your case, at least there is some justification for all your hate and bitterness. Sadly, you are ill informed about the similarities between Straight and AARC. I sure hope you get some peace one day. Those ugly demons of yours must be aweful to carry around. I know I can't convince you of anything, but I still think you are worth more than all that rage, especially when it is focused on an oraganization that isn't what you think. "

But my psychologist friend watched "Recovering Crystal" for half the program and then shut it off, he said, "because I couldn't bear to watch it".  That's what makes people want to puke, because  AARC is PRECISELY  what Ginger has experienced.      
As for puking, it's the self-righteous, holier than thou attitude that says "those ugly demons of yours " and "i still think you are worth more than all that rage"  that makes ME want to puke.  Sorry, but I do not see Ginger as being possessed by ugly demons. She's very well informed.  and I do see this treatment modality as particularly pernicious.

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-25 19:24:00, Anonymous wrote:

Sadly, you are ill informed about the similarities between Straight and AARC.

How do you know? Where you in Straight? Cause I've talked to people who were in AARC and who describe essentially the same "treatment" that I remember.

Specifically, I remember talking to a young lady who attempted suicide while in AARC. She said that the staff/Group response was to stand her up in front of the whole group and shame her for it and then to define her problem as wholely owing to substance abuse. And she went on to describe how that made her feel. (yes, we do have the power to make others feel certain ways; especially when we're talking about adults w/ an agenda dealing w/ vulnerable adolescents)

Yup, just as I remember. Ya' can't make this shit up. No one but another Program survivor would even believe you.

Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion, in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-25 21:06:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-02-25 19:24:00, Anonymous wrote:



Specifically, I remember talking to a young lady who attempted suicide while in AARC. She said that the staff/Group response was to stand her up in front of the whole group and shame her for it and then to define her problem as wholely owing to substance abuse. And she went on to describe how that made her feel. ("

It is interesting that you should mention that "suicide attempt". I was on staff, in fact I was in charge that day. I was the one who found the young lady. She had taken the razor out of a disposable, and barely scratched the surface of her wrist, just enough to make a little blood appear. I rushed to get a parent who was a nurse, and the girl was taken to hospital. I am not trying to belittle her event, but the "attempt" caused a lot of chaos and hurt. She ended up graduating, and yes, I know she was angry at AARC, but she is doing pretty darn well now. Did she get confronted on this? Yup. But as I remember it, she admitted it was out of an attempt to get attention. This event is all about perception - yours (Ginger) who wasn't there and read the information of the girl who was, who had her own perception as well. And my perception as well. I still feel that yours is ill-informed, Ginger, because you were not there, and had no idea what is true, or at least the extent of the truth.

[Anonymous]

[No, I'm going to tell you that it's in bad taste, to say the least to celebrate events that others found to be horrible and traumatic.]

So said Antigen yesterday about someone who posted here and was crass enough not to "get on the bus" and tote the party line about how evil and worthless AARC is.


Here's some unasked-for advice for you Antigen:  you'd be a whole lot less bitter and better able to overcome the rigid mindset of "us-and-them" (that you've obviously been stuck in for quite a long time) if you'd consider it.

If you'd just take a deep breath once in a while and ask why people have different opinions on programs like these.  Instead of defaulting to "they must have been brain-washed"position as you always do.

If you'd ask a person (like the one who had the bad manners to talk about a beneficial experience) what was helpful in AARC for her--- instead of being demeaning, lecturing,attacking, guilting, your normal range of interaction with people of other opinions.

You're in a preconceived box Antigen, do yourself a favor and get out of it.  By all means--trust your own experience--but know that it is not necessarily a universal experience.

Who knows---if you took this advice even a little bit(fat chance I know) it could actually make this site a helpful supportive useful place (where people on both sides of the subject actually learned new ways of seeing things) instead of a paranoid fantasy-ridden gripe session.

[JessicaM]

You did belittle it by saying this "barely scratched the surface of her wrist, just enough to make a little blood appear"

As you may or may not recall, I hit my vein, not just scratched my self, hitting a vein with a dull razor takes a lot of work.  The blood just didn't appear, it was pulsing out of the vein.  If you remember correctly my pants and shirt were soaked in blood.  I have very prominent scars to look at ever day.  In fact I have tatooed both of my wrists so I have something positive to look at everyday instead of those ugly scars.  This is a very major event in my life, that to this day effects me.  Yes part of it was done out of attention, but a lot was just the hopelessness of where I was at the time. Being confronted in that state, was not what I needed at the time and did a lot of damage.  The thing that pissed me off even more, was it being used down the road to convince other parents what would happen should aarc not step in.  I will never forget the day when Dr.V said in a Friday night rap (once I was on staff), "remember Jessie, remember when we had to break the door down when you tried to kill yourself, you would have died if we wouldn't have broken in"...  That never happened, but it was used as a scare tactic for the parents.... only aarc can save your kids lives.  I didn't like being used that way.... [ This Message was edited by: JessicaM on 2005-02-26 10:29 ]

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-26 06:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

I still feel that yours is ill-informed, Ginger, because you were not there, and had no idea what is true, or at least the extent of the truth.

But if I agreed w/ you, you'd be (virtually) patting me on the head and telling me how enlightened I am. Of course.

So I have two sides to the story. Which should I believe? The one that's consistent w/ my experience w/ these same groups or the one that flies in the face of all reasonable standards of care for someone who's suicidal?

Oh, how to choose, how to choose!

Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-26 07:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

You're in a preconceived box Antigen, do yourself a favor and get out of it. By all means--trust your own experience--but know that it is not necessarily a universal experience.

And, btw, thanks for the free psychoanalysis and therapy session. Of course, you have no idea what you're talking about. But then, wadaya want for free? I think I'll pass on this one.  :rofl:

Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-26 11:05:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2005-02-26 06:48:00, Anonymous wrote:


I still feel that yours is ill-informed, Ginger, because you were not there, and had no idea what is true, or at least the extent of the truth.

But if I agreed w/ you, you'd be (virtually) patting me on the head and telling me how enlightened I am. Of course.



So I have two sides to the story. Which should I believe? The one that's consistent w/ my experience w/ these same groups or the one that flies in the face of all reasonable standards of care for someone who's suicidal?



Oh, how to choose, how to choose!

Ministers say that they teach charity. That is natural. They live on hand-outs. All beggars teach that others should give.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

"

You will believe whatever keeps your anger justified. Continue to project your experience onto others. As for Jess being suicidal, she was obviously unhappy. No doubt about it. Yet she signed herself in, with no family support. Could have left at any time. Stayed, complied, graduated, and then hung out with others who graduated as well, (I think she was on staff for a while even) and went to AA. She was unhappy before, during, and possibly after. I will continue to to say what her experience were uniquely hers, just as mine was mine. Even some events we shared are seen differently. That is part of being human. I am sorry for all her hurt, before during and after AARC - it just plain sucks when someone you care about hurts, for whatever the reason. For me, compassion for anothers suffering cuts through ideology. Why? Ideology changes (watch and see what opinions have changed, even subtly over the years), but we all suffer, and are all deserving of compassion. If I damaged someone by my behavior, then I do what I can to make up for it, or I end up suffering as well. Again, I intended no pain from telling my side of your story Jess, but it was brought up by someone who was not there, and being used for their agenda of anger and bitterness.

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-26 13:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

If I damaged someone by my behavior, then I do what I can to make up for it, or I end up suffering as well. Again, I intended no pain from telling my side of your story Jess,

But it obviously does cause pain and yet you continue to do it and make excuses for your behavior.

You just never learn, do you?

Honestly, I'm not angry or bitter and I don't have any demons. I don't think I'm illinformed about the similarities between Straight and AARC. In fact our Anon former (former, right?) staffer even confirms that he/she did indeed stand this young lady up in front of group and confront her about a suicide attempt. Not only that, but then to go on and explit the event. That's just exactly what they used to do in Straight.

Nobody who knows anything about real therapy would ever dream of doing anything like that. No one w/ an actual licence to provide therapy would do such a thing because they'd lose their license. Only Program people who think what they're doing is therapeutic, despite all the evidence to the contray, would do that.

And, again, just because I reject your philosophy doesn't mean I'm sick, twisted, bitter or anything like that. It just means I reject your philosophy. Why does that bother you so much? Have you got some demons whispering in your ear or something? I can well imagine that you have.

Is uniformity [of opinion] attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites.
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

All that bothers me is how sad you are Ginger. Every vitriolic post of yours shows that so clearly. As far as traditional therapy for treating addiction, you surely must know that individual therapy, based on Freudian THEORY is sadly lacking. Psychology is an ever evolving, extremely young "science". And it is usually conditional on sinking into and trying to understand the neuroses instead of learning to get past it and be successful and thrive. Anyone who hangs onto their bitterness and pain, however justified by going through a place like Straight or KIDS, is in need of compassion and caring to get past it and move on, hopefully to help others.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-27 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"All that bothers me is how sad you are Ginger. Every vitriolic post of yours shows that so clearly. As far as traditional therapy for treating addiction, you surely must know that individual therapy, based on Freudian THEORY is sadly lacking. Psychology is an ever evolving, extremely young "science". And it is usually conditional on sinking into and trying to understand the neuroses instead of learning to get past it and be successful and thrive. Anyone who hangs onto their bitterness and pain, however justified by going through a place like Straight or KIDS, is in need of compassion and caring to get past it and move on, hopefully to help others. "

[Anonymous]

On 2005-02-27 09:32:00, Anonymous wrote:

"All that bothers me is how sad you are Ginger. Every vitriolic post of yours shows that so clearly. As far as traditional therapy for treating addiction, you surely must know that individual therapy, based on Freudian THEORY is sadly lacking. Psychology is an ever evolving, extremely young "science". And it is usually conditional on sinking into and trying to understand the neuroses instead of learning to get past it and be successful and thrive. Anyone who hangs onto their bitterness and pain, however justified by going through a place like Straight or KIDS, is in need of compassion and caring to get past it and move on, hopefully to help others. "

::puke::
Oh, gawd, spare us, spare us
 ::puke::
Freudian Theory?  Where the hell did THAT come from?
 :idea: