Author Topic: Group Think  (Read 14772 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2005, 02:08:00 PM »
anyone else notice that most of the pro seed people have no children, and the anti seed people have children.

Coincidence?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2005, 05:10:00 PM »
I'll bet it's because to have kids you have to play games with a chick(s) and get your head IN the gutter at least for a few minutes.  :silly:
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Offline Stripe

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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2005, 05:49:00 PM »
Yeah, prinson is no place for a child.  A 17 year old in high school is still legally a child - and quite obviously has no concept of consequences.  

Maybe going to the seed doesn't have all the terror of prison, but it quite obviously screws people up or we woudln't be here.  

I have had clients end up in prison - some rightfuly and some wrongly.  But still, not every crime deserves to be punsihed with hard time.  Anons above, you must be nuts to think that a kid who is dumb enough to take hits of acid to school and sell the or give them away is suitable for lockup.

Have you ever been in jail or prison?  Next time your local state attorney office offers tours of the state prison or local jail - take the opportunity to see that environment from the inside out. See if you really mean what you say.
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The person who stands up and says, ``This is stupid,\'\' either is asked to `behave\' or, worse, is greeted with a cheerful ``Yes, we know! Isn\'t it terrific ?\'\' -- Frank Zappa

Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2005, 09:31:00 PM »
the most difficult part of group think is when you finally accepted that you were "invisible" and that those around you were "somebody" because of the status that they held according to the inner circle. There was an inner circle whether some want to admit it or not, and those in it were "supposedly wiser" than those not in the circle. The truth is that people in the "inner circle" had money. Many of those out of the circle could at least provide some service to staff, such as mowing yard or cleaning house. That way staff would not have to pay what any American pays for those service, yet they could save money, lots of it, to be quite secure in thier future. You had to be grateful despite the fact that you had no money, but they did, the idea was that it was "an honor" to clean our house or mow your lawn if you happened to be a staff member or above staff. It was especially "an honor" because you recognized how this person that you were working for for free was a wise, old soul that probably had lived many live before you and now was almost perfect. "After all couldn't you tell by simply noticing that they had a perfect "aura." God forbid you were ever out of line or took for ganted everything staff had done for you. Honestly, where are they today? There were certain lines that were prohibited, like "What have you done for me lately?" Funny, in most relationships it is O.K. to ask that question if one of the spouses is out of line, but not in the group. Many, many, many lies were told over and over again, and from the mouths of hypocrites come the greatest of lies.


With all do respect to any whose life was positevely changes, save what you can from the experience, but to me the "myth" of the personbality cult is dead.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2005, 10:11:00 PM »
are you new here?  IF so, welcome. Please choose a user name and participate often.
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Offline marshall

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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2005, 01:01:00 AM »
http://www.cultsock.ndirect.co.uk/MUHom ... index.html

Excerpts from the link:

"When we find ourselves in groups we inevitably find ourselves in the minority occasionally. Generally speaking, we will feel a little uncomfortable with that situation, which explains why we generally seek out groups with interests similar to our own. Imagine, though, that you are in a group where you are sure you are right and everyone else is wrong. Would you yield to group pressure and go along with everyone else?

In Asch's experiments, a group of people were seated around a table. Of these all but one were actually the experimenters confederates. The group was shown a display of vertical lines of different lengths and were asked to say which of the lines was the same length as another standard line.

One after another, the members of the group announced their decision. The confederates had been asked to give the incorrect response. The subject sat in the next to last seat so that all but one had given their obviously incorrect answer before s/he gave hers/his. Even though the correct answer was always obvious, the average subject conformed to the group response on 32% of the trials and 74% of the subjects conformed at least once.

On the face of it, an astonishing result. The correct answer was entirely obvious. Subjects had to override the very clear evidence of their own senses to give an answer conforming to the others'. Why did they do it?  When interviewed afterwards, subjects all said that they had been influenced by the pressure from the rest of the group. This, on the face of it, may appear to be an example of 'groupthink'.

Many said that they did not want to appear silly. That ties in with Rom Harré's claim that one of our secondary needs is a need for 'social respect', which includes the need to avoid looking ridiculous in front of others, the need to avoid criticism from others. That need would be likely to motivate us to seek compromise with others.

 There have been other experiments which have tended to confirm Asch's results by and large. Crutchfield's lengthier and more complex experiments seem to confirm a correlation between high intelligence and other personality traits and low conformity."

groupthink - the phenomenon whereby members of a group will not wish to risk any danger to group cohesion by expressing 'deviant' opinions. The decision of Kennedy to invade Cuba is often given as an example. Many of his advisers actually disagreed with his decision, but were unwilling to express deviant views. More recently Reagan's Strategic Defence Initiative ('Star Wars') seems to have developed in a similar way."

--------

This experiment (Asch) seems to suggest that we could have been told that black is white or most any outrageous falsehood at the Seed (or other peer-pressure based program) and a large proportion of us would have gone along with the group and agreed. If our need to conform is so basic that most of us will agree with the group even when this contradicts our own senses, those types of programs could indeed be used to sway thinking in any way chosen by the group leaders. I would guess that the effect would be even greater on younger adolescents or children.

Note too that the Asch experiment involved a one-time judgment, not an ongoing series of contradictory information on a daily (10 or 12 hours per day) basis. It's hard to imagine the power of such a concerted effort over months or years. Oh wait. I don't have to imagine it! :silly:
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Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. You must climb towards the Truth. It cannot be \'stepped down\'

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2005, 01:27:00 AM »
Quote
On 2005-12-18 22:01:00, marshall wrote:

This experiment (Asch) seems to suggest that we could have been told that black is white or most any outrageous falsehood at the Seed (or other peer-pressure based program) and a large proportion of us would have gone along with the group and agreed.


Yup, and to some degree, this seperates us from normal folk who have not been served a potent slice of it. But step back and take a broader view. Let's take something that's been in the papers a lot lately; school yard bullying. We all had our opinions and strategies when we were kids. But that all had to fit somewhere within the given social framework. Otherwise, it was a mighty hard row to ho and we all did have at least some choices.

So how did we do that? You must admit that some horrible things happened in school and in the neighborhood. And we all checked each other's faces before deciding what to make of any of it.

The Program, and it's victims/veterans/survivors, are not really that unique and seperate from the rest of society. It's a matter of degrees. We got a potent slice of it served up by a bunch of self important do-gooders. I think we're all (who bother to stay in touch, anyway) either alergic to it and/or addicted to it. But it's really all the same ingredients, isn't it?

Suppose you were an idiot.  And suppose you were a member of Congress.  But I repeat myself.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/external-search?tag=circlofmiamithem&keyword=mark+twain&mode=books' target='_new'> Mark Twain

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Offline Johnny G

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« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2005, 03:06:00 PM »
These are the ingredients for the police state - lack public dissent against the "leadership" everyone (except a few "true believers) has doubts or knows the prevailing view to be bullshit however...

Anyone who questions the status quo is immediately shouted down or worse. Everyone is pulled in to participate in the punishment of the unfortunate dissenter, thereby showing their loyalty.  This prevents any cohesion among the opposition and reinforces the aloneness of the dissenter, and strength of the group.  

The easy path is to not stick out, mouth the party line when spoken to, put the radio by the door so the secret police can hear you listening to the furhers speech.

As said earlier, this is what keeps the group going, the signs and steps are immaterial;  Fear and peer pressure are the main ingredients.  You are either with us or against us, seeling or a druggie...

I think what makes stepcraft survivors different is that we have participated in the Asch experiment writ large, and know what we (and others)are capable of in that situation.  

After a while on the program, the ideals of loyalty, honesty, integrity, and character start to seem pretty hollow as you realize what you are and are not capable of while sitting in the group watching someone you thought was your friend get humiliated in front of the world - and you look like you want join in (you have your hand up, don't you?)  

The sad thing is how many of us felt the same, but were afraid to express it.

We are conditioned thru a year of pre school, a year of kindergarden, 12 years of school, the church (most any church wil do) to listen to the authority (the teacher, staff member, boss) to do as we are told, the authority has the answer - not you.  this creates good little citezens and workers.  

And you thought school was here to teach you to read.

It sounds so simple but how many are really willing to exercise free will when it might hurt?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #38 on: December 20, 2005, 03:36:00 PM »
I guess thats where having balls comes in ::bigsmilebounce::  ::bigsmilebounce::
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #39 on: December 20, 2005, 03:57:00 PM »
Good comments, Johnny G.

It is amazing how hard it is to resist peer pressure.

I was just reading a book by David Sedaris, and he wrote this whole chapter about being a kid and wanting to be cool, and how ashamed he was to be caught trying to be accepted. About how badly he wanted to have this suede vest, and how when he bought it it was imitation, and that when he wore it, the hippy girl he was trying to impress laughed at him.(Book title: Dress Your Family in Courderoy and Denim). He ends the chapter with how much, looking back, he can hardly wait to be the person who can dress as they want, talk as they want, and think as they want without imagining how it is coming off to everyone.

And while the Seed gave me the ability to stop trying to be 'cool,' it set it's own standards of conformity that were even steeper in some ways.

It doesn't take 'balls' to be yourself - it takes having empathy for others and realizing that we're all human. I suppose that is maturity.

[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-12-20 12:58 ]
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Offline Johnny G

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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2005, 04:50:00 PM »
I think we all saw people with "balls" and how that worked out (didn't they have their hands up too?)
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2005, 05:12:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-20 12:06:00, Johnny G wrote:

I think what makes stepcraft survivors different is that we have participated in the Asch experiment writ large, and know what we (and others)are capable of in that situation.
:nworthy:
Dude! I've been trying for close to ten years to write just that.

Quote
After a while on the program, the ideals of loyalty, honesty, integrity, and character start to seem pretty hollow as you realize what you are and are not capable of while sitting in the group watching someone you thought was your friend get humiliated in front of the world - and you look like you want join in (you have your hand up, don't you?)

The sad thing is how many of us felt the same, but were afraid to express it.


Yeah. And I just got done reading about exactly this happening in Nazi Germany. A popular joke at the time was "Oh yes, the master race, blond like Hitler, tall like Goebbels, slim like Goering!" This originated in Germany among Nazi party members. Now, these party members, interviewed at length 8 years into the American occupation, did not at all approve of many of the things the Nazis did. The burning of the synagogs, for example, got under a lot of people's skin. But, of course, the Jewish problem. They were out to destroy and enslave the Germanic peoples, right? And the concentration camps. No good German approved of such things. So, instead, they dismissed the rumors as enemy propaganda.

Now, is it paranoia or prescience to be sooooo sensitive to such things?

Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.

--Thomas Hodgskin

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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2005, 05:15:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-20 12:57:00, cleveland wrote:

It doesn't take 'balls' to be yourself - it takes having empathy for others and realizing that we're all human. I suppose that is maturity.


Yeah that, or true and complete resignation.  lol

Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

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Offline jgar

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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2005, 05:34:00 PM »
The Seed for me was a little more complicated than this. When I realized that it was time for me to be on my way was when I saw how I had replaced my dependency on drugs to a unnatural dependency on the Seed. The Seed had become too much of a crutch and when I realized this I saw how unnatural and debilitating things had become.

It is easy now so many years later to be able to say this but, when this happened it seemed to me to be the hardest decision in my life. It seemed to me that I was questioning the very essence and foundation of who I was and at the very least I was eliminating my only safety net.  I felt like I was questioning my loyalty, my resolve as a person to be able out last any adversity. I wondered if all I had professed to be would be negated by my leaving and I would be nothing more than just another hypocrite.

In truth the hypocrisy was in the overbearing dependence and control the program held over it?s own. This only served to mechanize and control and in essence destroy any progress that was actually made by anyone who was involved and was actually trying to move forward. I can remember old friends accusing me of being brainwashed and how I took pride in being able to shut them out from my life taking comfort in the thought that I knew the truth and the only valid truth.

Time and life have taught me some tough and humbling lessons and through this I have been able to sift through those years and determine what was valid and what was hurtful and destructive, I guess this will be a life long chore. The Seed being that of this world reflected this world in its flaws and its politics and it?s inner complexities but, by no means did this negate it?s truth and it?s sound philosophies. In the end I was able to exercise what scared us the most which; was my own freewill.  
       
The Seed in my opinion through my experience as life can be was both a blessing and a curse . I thank God that I found the Seed and than when the time came I had the ability to walk away. What surprised me the most was in the end what opened the door for me was my overwhelming desire to make my own decisions and live as I choose to live my life.
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Offline cleveland

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« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2005, 09:23:00 AM »
Jgar, well said.

I think that is why it is difficult for me to be all one way or the other when it comes to the Seed. I did feel idealistic, a part of something, connected to other people in a way I had never been before. The ideal of honesty was one that is very important to me. Being able to stand up for myself, or go against the flow of society, was also very important. But there was the flipside - the ideals that got applied differently to different people, the hierarchy or control, the expectations of conformity to the group - and for me the loneliness of not really being able to be myself, open and free. So, I learned lessons, but I really learned them after I left. Not that I am some paragon of virtue or anything.

Leaving the Seed was like leaving a marriage, or a family, or any total ripping away of the past. It reminds me of the person who said something like life only consists of two actions - saying hello, and saying goodbye.
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