Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum

The kids are alright?

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Anonymous:
The end does not justify the means, Jimmy. Otherwise, Thanks for a thoughtfull post.

 Forcing someone into a personality cult because they have behavioral problems opens up a whole new pandoras box of problems for many of the children. Sure, some will get the desired result, at least in the short haul. Others? Psychologist in Ft Lauderdale were getting Art's ranting anger and disrespect in the press. Why? Because they were treating Seedlings as they came out of the Seed program with a myriad of pysc problems that were exacerbated or created while under the duress of behavior modification. Art's response, paraphrased here  was to the effect of "Psychologists can't do a damn thing with kids on drugs", thereby dismissing offhand every problem they were experiencing with these kids.

No Jimmy, it is extremely imprudent to take a kid with one problem, lock em up in a cult and hope to sort out any additional created problems at a later date. Sometimes, as in the case of suicide,broken families, shattered self image or mental illness, that date never comes. Look at some recent threads or talk to my good friend Wes Fager about his personal experiences post TC trauma with his child.

Antigen:
Wally, kudos to your friend for trying to help these kids.

As to whether to teach facts or abstinance (science based or shame based instruction), that's easy! Go with the facts! As you note, these kids are already sexually active and emmersed in a culture that has already gone a long way toward defining their sexual attitudes and behaviors. But a little science based education can never hurt.

The trouble is that we're trying to use a public mechanism to do something it can't possibly do. You wouldn't want some stranger who teaches your daughter a health class once a week or so to sit her down and discuss the intimate details of her internal and external romantic life. But that's what she needs, at some point. So, if you can't do it, she'll need to find a solid confidant who can earn and keep her confidence and who can help her understand the whole incredibly subjective and complicated issue.

From a public health pov, the first and most important thing we can do for inner city families would be to quit helping them so damned much! A dad who smokes pot, even one who sells it sometimes, can be far better than one who's in prison and/or carries a felony conviction for life. If not him, then maybe an uncle or a big brother or a grandparent. Right now, we're locking up roughly 1/3 of all adult inner city males. The fastest growing segment of prison population now is made up of women; many who take the fall for long terms because they're afraid to testify for the prosecution (more afraid than they are of the prosecution)

So all the fine advice about spending time and paying attention to your kids is really quite insulting to some people.

I think these kids have really had just about all the government help they can stand.
In order to live free and happily you must sacrifice boredom. It is not always an easy sacrifice.
-- Richard Bach

--- End quote ---

cleveland:
Ginger, clearly we have failed many children and families in our society. I went thru a lot of failure with my own family, and turned to the Seed as a last resort. Well, I would have been one of those who proclaimed the value of the program, as did many on this site today, but then I left.

So yes, our society has failed in some respects, but the solution is not cults, fundamentalism or coercion, as you note, but reason, encouragement, and respect.

I've just read a post here (below) about Resource Realizations training for parents - what a horrible crock of shit that people are still subjected to. I've been following these threads and the EST/Lifesrings training where the end justifies the means. Everyone who defends 'coercive therapy' should read it.

http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... eaking.htm

Stripe:
This is all interesting - but it seems like we are only looking at kids after the fact.  You guys are talking about teen problems - but those problems are created by the parents when the children are babies.

Personally, I don't think it's enough to be the empathetic, listening, do-good parent once the shit hits the fan.  Those should be skills that were employed from day one - when the privilege of having a child was bestowed upon us. Some may view it as a biologinal imperative but I'm of the opinion that it's really a privilege to be responsible for another life.  

I saw this in my own life when the child mimicked the father and mother - taking on every good and bad behavior we exhibited. Everything from fingernail biting to kicking, hitting and screaming - all were behaviors exhibited by myself and my ex-husband. And it was so shocking to me to watch a child less than three years old kick me and tell me I was a fuck - the exact behavior his father exhibited. Frightening to realize how much damamge I had done and had allowed to happen by my own "powerlessness" in just that short time my child was alive.  

Children learn good and bad behavior from their parents. (On a personal note - yeah, I broke the law, a bench warrant was issed and I and refused to allow contact and paid dearly for that.) But, my son, who is now 22 years old, is one of the kindest, most compassionate young men you'd ever have the pleasure to know. I have bent over backwards to undo that damage we caused and allowed to happen. I took every opportunity I could to show him, time and time again, what it meant to be a kind, honest, non-violent, person. It cost me but it was worth the sacrifice.  

Children learn from what their parents do. When the good learning doesn't come into to equation until well after the child has taken those bad behaviors to heart, the end result is a very confused person and the damage is already done.  It can be undone: it's very difficult for the child, and it takes a lot of outgoing energy - to show them by example - the value and results of other choices and options.  But I know it can be undone.

I truly believe that a good society begins at home with the parent or parents (and I'not referring to the "Bush family moral values" where it's all perfectperfect church/bible oriented and we don't talk about what we did before age 38.) It begins with the elders/parents. Maybe it might make a difference for some very lucky children to have positive role models after the fact to help them understand abstinance or responsiblity and take those teachings to heart- but it's a small, small minority of kids who are lucky enough to make that connection.

Most times, the scenario repeats itself, over and over again.  Why else would 14 year olds have babies; why else would kids use drugs or steal from their neighbors or each other or run in gangs or kill ? Because they see their elders doing the same thing with no personal accountablity.    

As adults and now parents, if we continue to look outward, to lay blame on addictions and give up our personal power to choose and master our own behavior  - give it up to some exterior entitiy, what the hell will our kids learn?

The meassage they get is this: Go ahead and fuck up because you can go do 30 days in treatment, do some 12 stepping and everything will be ok -forgiven ... because you're powerless.  No, I don't think so.  That just perpetuates the problem.

Places like the Seed may have operated as parental input for some, but in the end, we still go back to what we were raised with- that's the core essence of who we are, who our parent's raised, good, bad, or otherwise.

I think everything we do in this life is purely a matter of personal choice.  No one forces us to do anything.  Our children see our choices  and they behave accordingly.  

Love and peace to you all.

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