How about some damn ANSWERS.

[Nihilanthic]

I've bitched and asked enough times in other threads to make it officially redundant...

So heres the OFFICIAL THREAD.

Perrigaud, "one who cares", any supporter of these programs.

State explicitly, just how they do their 'magic'. I dont want generalities I'd read in a press report, I dont want vague words, I want just what, exactly they do as 'therapy' (or whatever) to make the kids so repentant, submissive, obedient, and 'hard working'?

What do they do, how do they do it, why is total isolation and captivity and submission and control necessary for SO long to facilitate this?

Being 'scared', 'in your face', and 'shocked' (aka suffering) to make them better through fear and epiphany is not a valid reason.


I'm REALLY looking forwards to finally getting something substantial out of this, but I doubt I will.

P.S. - Ginger, would you moderate this thread? or is this forum still explicitly unmoderated?

...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana
is its effect on the degenerate races.

http://www.heartbone.com/no_thugs/hja.htm' target='_new'>Harry Anslinger

[Carey]

Ginger what Nil is really asking when he asks you to moderate this thread is "don't let someone say something I don't want to hear."  

I specifically told him how one of my twins felt it helped him...they took things away from him that he took for granted, and more importantly, he was able to see by the actions of others what he did not want to be.

[Anonymous]

Niles - Are you really open to hearing it again?  Or would you rather continue think that the kids are beaten and scared into submission?

No matter what someone says positive, you've continually called them liars, brainwashed and evil.

The program is not MAGIC, so to answer how they work it a waste of time.

There is no total isolation, they're around peers and staff 24/7.  Do you mean they can't pick up the phone, or come and go as they please?

It takes what it takes, it isn't up to "the program" it's up to the kids to prove to themselves they are committed to standing for their lives.  Like Carey said, one of her son's got something out of it, the other one didn't.  Two kids, same program.  

Your language is so negative - control, submission, captivity?  You've been reading too much ISAC propaganda.  

Since you have no personal experience, won't even go to an adult personal growth seminar (OMG!  I'll be brainwashed!) answering your questions again and again is redundant.

[Anonymous]

The argument has never been that the program wouldn't create change in a child. The question is, and always has been... do the means justify the end.
And again... is it that the program works like when someone has a near death experience? I think so. Are there less abusive and more respectful ways to interact with human beings? Yep. Some people just don't know how to do that and thus must resort to harsh and austere methods.

Every argument ends here. We must agree to disagree because we have different definitions of 'abuse', respect, rights, manipulation, etc, etc, etc.

[Nihilanthic]

Dodging again. I used "magic" metaphorically.

Give me some fucking answers godammit. Whats the therapy?

I asked for moderation so we dont get some troll coming in, or meaingless arguements between people. I just want the damn facts stated here.

I have STILL not seen any. All I've seen is dodging, accusations at me, and "go to a seminar".

Well, I'll take what we've got so far:

***I specifically told him how one of my twins felt it helped him...they took things away from him that he took for granted, and more importantly, he was able to see by the actions of others what he did not want to be.***  
So, all they did is take 'things' away from him, and make him be in an environemnt full of 'people he did not want to be'. So, loss of freedoms and being around bad apples. Thats why you send kids to programs? Thats why you spend so much money? Restricting freedom/fun/pleasure? hah.

Now, for the OTHER anon:

***There is no total isolation, they're around peers and staff 24/7. Do you mean they can't pick up the phone, or come and go as they please? ***

The isolation referred to is from the outside world and their parents without censorship or punishment for speaking bad of the program, and an almost total elimination of any credibility for any complaint or grievance of a child in the program against it. Yes, they are around the other children if not in OP or Dial 9 or whatever they call it at that place.

There ARE facilities where they can come and go as they please, and/or can pick up a phone. Whats wrong with that?

***It takes what it takes, it isn't up to "the program" it's up to the kids to prove to themselves they are committed to standing for their lives. Like Carey said, one of her son's got something out of it, the other one didn't. Two kids, same program.***

Its dependant on them to accept the programs teachings? Fair enough. I still havent seen what they're supposed to be doing to teach them.

***Your language is so negative - control, submission, captivity? You've been reading too much ISAC propaganda.***

:silly: oh please...

***Since you have no personal experience, won't even go to an adult personal growth seminar (OMG! I'll be brainwashed!) answering your questions again and again is redundant.***

Ok, let me set this straight again. I've read a lot of credible evidence that the seminars are nothing more than group regressional therapy. Being put into a different state of mind, and broken down, so you can be convinced of things.

Yet again, I will repeat for you - everyone has the same damn complaint. The emotional/psychological BS. I'm not up to putting myself through that kind of experience to be convinced of the wonders of the program. Maybe someone should make a video of a seminar.

Also, yeah, I dont have personal experience, I dont have kids to put in nor the desire to use them as a guinea pig, and thankfully I was never in one of those dman places. I'm trying to find OUT whats going on. Thast the purpose of this.

Now, AGAIN... WHAT DO THEY DO IN THE PROGRAMS?

Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein

[Anonymous]

You've been given this information but you said it was trolling.  Since it's not one size fits all, there are MANY things the program offers.  If you would take the time to actually READ the inhouse magazine, The Source, you would have your questions answered in more ways than can be explained here.  Sorry, I know it's not the quick fix answer in a box you're looking for.

[Nihilanthic]

I was not accusing anyone of trolling! I said I wished to safeguard against it because I want to get answers.

Now, with that out of the way....

***You've been given this information but you said it was trolling. Since it's not one size fits all, there are MANY things the program offers. If you would take the time to actually READ the inhouse magazine, The Source, you would have your questions answered in more ways than can be explained here. Sorry, I know it's not the quick fix answer in a box you're looking for.***

Okay. So... you want me to read their magazine? Oh, and you had to throw in a few insults. :roll:

I just want a straight answer.

Why wont you give me one?

Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous

[Anonymous]

Nihil, it's hopeless. WWASPies will never give you a straight answer because they won't even give themselves a straight answer. You ask them to be honest with you about the program when they can't even be honest with themselves. That is why they refer you to all kinds of WWASPie propaganda.

Thinking about it, I doubt that they know for certain for was done to their children. All they know is that it must have been something that was good and necessary, because it was done by WWASP (remember, the program is perfect and it makes no mistakes) and it turned their kids into submissive robots.

[Anonymous]

Be careful responding to Cary Bock.
She is bought and paid for by WWASP.
In My experainced opinion, She is trolling for responces that will help them find grounds to come after the forum and the indiviguals on it.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-26 10:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Be careful responding to Cary Bock.

She is bought and paid for by WWASP.

In My experainced opinion, She is trolling for responces that will help them find grounds to come after the forum and the indiviguals on it.



"

Seeing thw way she's defending Dundee and trashing Amberly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out this is true (I'm not accusing you of lying-- just saying that I haven't yet seen any evidence).

[Nihilanthic]

Ok, the moderation I was referring to was to try to prevent this and get a straight answer...

I'm not trying to shut you people up either, I just wanted to try to get *SOMETHING* detailed from a program supporter! Dammit, I dont want to read a magazine for people who already signed, on or go to some superexpensive seminar with credible accusations of manipulation.

What I do want is to hear from a parent or a previous student what was done with or to them as 'therapy' and treatment.

Why is it so hard to tell? Whats the deal? You're escorted there, and theres intake. Whats intake? You're kept in there and you do stuff. What stuff? Is it listening to those tapes and being in regressional seminars that make you want to fix yourself?

Why cant I get a straight answer?

Oh, and P.S. - you cant do SHIT to this forum or anyone here. WWASPS vs PURE demonstrated that. Not that I'm fond of PURE either.

Plus, why would she have to go out to sue dissenters if the programs REALLY help? Hmm? Its not like ISAC is selling a competiting product.

WWASPS suing ISAC or an activist is like a Tobacco Company suing those 'Truth' commercials for saying  smoking is addictive and causes cancer.

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679728953/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> H.L. Mencken, 1923

[Anonymous]

Niles - Only the therapist and the teen know what the process was during therapy.  That's confidential as it is with any patient/client realationship.  If a student wants to share this, fine.

This was MY personal experience:

We went to the program together, no transport services.

Toured, met with staff, met with students. Saw every nook and cranny of the school. Met the student who would be his "buddy" for the first few days.

Said our goodbyes - very emotional for both of us.

Wrote letters to begin the process of rebuilding our communication - The first letters were angry and manipulative. we got the full uncensored venting.

Weekly contact with family rep - talked about the challenges of the week - talked about how "we" were doing, not just teen.

We all began the personal growth seminars at the same time.  Wrote about what we learned about ourselves, identified key areas that weren't working, what choices we were making that contributed to the breakdown, being good enough to be happy, moving from the past to right now, goals and trust. This was an ongoing process throughout.

Therapy calls once a week, all of us on the phone (this was well over 5 years ago, so unsure if this is still the process) Talked about whatever we felt needed addressing.

After completing the seminars, I assisted on a regular basis to gain more personal insights and to help new parents in whatever way I was asked.

Regular visits (usually about once a month) -first on grounds, then off grounds, then overnight.

Parent weekend - this is where we were in a workshop together for 2 days gaining even more communication skills.

Parent/Child 1 - more indepth than the parent weekend, defined personal and family values, how to apply what we learned about each other, respecting our differences, more goals, beginning the process of a home contract. Getting to the heart of anything we felt was still unresolved in our relationships - us and other family members, old friends and choices.

Parent/Child 2 - the graduation workshop. I call it the "no sugar coating" workshop - leaving no stone unturned.  Talked about the fear of having old behaviors come up, what to do about it, separating normal teen choices from the old stuff, a commitment to stay true to ourselves but to work together as a family.  A commitment to continue asking for help when needed.  We acknowledged that mistakes happen, it's what we learn from them that makes the difference.  Defining what success means in our family.

He was at grade level, making straight A's with all his credits transferring to his home high school. Close to 4 years home, graduated high school and remains drug free.  Learned to control his anger and believes in himself. We continue to have "respectful" communication even if it's not what we want to hear.  He's still the same kid, minus the attitude and drugs, making choices that he owns.  I'm still the same person minus the blame and anger that contributed to what happened.  Lots of deep, inner soul searching and work.

[Anonymous]

P.S. - Love and respect - learning that we each wanted and needed that above all else was what gave us the desire and motivation to get where we are now - with the help we so desparately needed.

[Nihilanthic]

Ok, it seems I've actually gotten somewhere! Merry Christmas Anon.

Ok - so you put the child into the program, and then rebuilt communication through it. You both went into seminars.

Then, built up to more visits.

So, its seperation (and isolation of the child), the seminars, and work your way to eachother with the program in the middle. It appears the point is to make some sort of a bond with child/parent via program's isolation and controlled environment. aka Behavior modification. Still lacking in specifics, though.

I still dont know exactly what the child has done to them While confidentiality needs to be respected there has to be some sort of general mode of treatment that exists - when there are accusations of abuse, things like this need to be taken seriously. Is anyone who was a child in a program here willing to tell us what the treatment is?

What I said in the initial post in this thread still hasn't been answered! What do they actually do in the program/seminars? Why does it take so long? Why is isolation and captivity necessary?

Saying programs/seminars and step by step reconnecting the child/parent communication is how it works, is like saying a engine works by pushing the gas pedal. Engines work by sucking in air and fuel, squishing it, exploding it, and blowing it out the exhaust. Your foot only controls how much fuel and air get in. Its not what makes the engine 'go'.

What makes the program's engine 'go'? The regressional seminars that are often said to resemble brainwashing? Wanting to get back out so you conform?

None of Nature's landscapes are ugly so long as they are wild.
-- John Muir

[spots]

If you would take the time to actually READ the inhouse magazine, The Source, you would have your questions answered in more ways than can be explained here.  

When a serious question is asked ("EXACTLY what...anything...specifically helped you"), only a non-thinker cultist would answer "Just read our propoganda".  This type of answer would not occur to a "normal" person.  Ask a teacher, "Exactly what makes an apple fall to the ground", and would you respect that teacher if he said, "Just trust me...an apple always falls at a 45° angle from the tree"?  One would probably figure out that the teacher either 1) wasn't interested in taking the time to explain the reason, or 2) was on such shaky ground about the forces of gravity that he *couldn't* explain it.  Suggesting reading the party publication like The Source for a true explanation is a sign of a small mind...or a lazy one.

Further Quote...

***There is no total isolation, they're around peers and staff 24/7. Do you mean they can't pick up the phone, or come and go as they please? ***

I consider isolation being "around peers and staff" but not allowed to communicate, either by spoken word or hand signals.  This is isolation of the cruelest kind.

So many sad and touching anecdotes are revealed in the long months and years after WWASPS. Our WWASPie should listen to kids finally home, about the everyday reality children endure there, and it has to do with way more than being denied phone and partying privileges with teen friends.  Yesterday, my kid told us about "saying goodbye" to graduates.  Twice, the graduate girls at Casa simply disappeared from population, never saying goodbye or sharing their "success" even though some had been there going-on 3 years.  However, once, about 15 girls were graduating at one time, and for some reason they were allowed the final "goodbye".  They came into the dorms and hugged several girls, bade good wishes, etc.  The lower level girls receiving these hugs could not respond, because they were not allowed to talk.  This is cruel, and negates any teaching/love/mentoring the graduate girls may have had to offer.