Memories of being clean and sober

[JaLong]

Ginger, why are you so full of venom? My bad for not seeing the date on the post. Haven't been on in a long time. I wonder why? Don't you dare judge me girl. I am not into any step-craft, just life. Get a life Ginger, and maybe you will find some true happiness inside of yourself to where you don't feel the need to "try" to down almost everything someone has said. I feel you are a very opinionated person, and very judgemental. You might want to think before you "paint's what you see". Everyone has a different perspective of their own reality, and you don't even know me. Personally, I don't even read 3/4ths of your posts, because I know you are doggin someone else. By the way, your words don't bother me at the least. I don't give my power to anyone. I just felt the need to say how I feel about you. Take it or leave it.

[Stripe]

[Antigen]

Uh, Julie, I'm not bitter. Sorry, I just like to call bullshit on program-speak now that I'm free to do so. You're selling not being stoned (or is it the Seed group experience?) like it's the latest, greatest designer drug.

I thought it was friggin hillarious, that's all. Don't take it so personally.

They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=18' target='_new'>Michael More

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-30 08:54:00, JaLong wrote:

"Landyh,

I was told by a counslor that I was an alcholic, a drug addict, and a sex addict(yeah right). Anyhow I did question that because I was drinking on a daily basis with my youngest daughters father. So into the room of AA I walked. I joined a group of women only. I felt very loved and welcomed there from the first day. The values and goals I saw in these women was something I wanted.I soaked things up like a sponge. After 2 wks I chose a sponsor, and from the beginning she kept asking me, " are you sure you are an alcholic"? Well being at a very low point in my life right then, I thought I was. As the years went on she kept asking me the same thing. Then I moved to Gulfport, and joined a group on the beach. There I saw so much bull. Gossiping, 13 stepping, others hooked on gambling, stealing money for their own selfish reasons, and I blew out of there. I tried a beer many months later, and didn't have another one for 2 months. I have a drink on occasion, yet I can take it or leave it. So, do you understand why I am not an alcholic? Thank God!. In the program I did learn a lot about who I was, and what I wanted for my life. I just felt so much negativity in some of the rooms. It just wasn't for me. Lyndyh, as I said before, I still have all my tools in my tool box that I use. Being in the program definatly brought me back to a very close relationship with my Creator. I have that peace that surpases all understanding, and any trials or issues I go through I grow from. I have an addictive personallity, that I know for sure.So I stay away from people, places, and things that bring any kind of negativity into my life. I do have choices, and I use them wisely.

Take care, Julie"

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I can understand that and I am glad that you are not an alcoholic. Glad that AA provided something of benefit to you in spite of that and sorry you had to see how sometimes groups can begin to operate outside of priciple. Thank God there not all like that but none are perfect.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-11-30 06:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Why don't you attack the contents of the post as oppossed to the person who posted ?"

Perhaps because there is absolutely nothing in the post that relates in any substantive way with what any of us were saying. In fact the only thing abundantly clear is that the person posting has an appalling inability to comprehend what they read. 1st grade indeed.

[landyh]

On 2005-11-30 23:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

On 2005-11-30 06:29:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Why don't you attack the contents of the post as oppossed to the person who posted ?"

Perhaps because there is absolutely nothing in the post that relates in any substantive way with what any of us were saying. In fact the only thing abundantly clear is that the person posting has an appalling inability to comprehend what they read. 1st grade indeed. "

I thought it only fair that I point out that I posted the above since I would certainly like you to have an opportunity to respond to the right person. I suggest before you do though that you might wish to consult a dictionary and perhaps a thesaurus this time so that you might have at least a glimmer of a chance of actually making a point. I realize that I run the risk here of making you lose your fear of humans. Feeding you and all but  somthing tells me the risk is pretty small.

[Anonymous]

All you guys took from my post was "first grade".

Can anyone explain to me why, after repeated use of "the Seed or AA tools" and having it work for a while, but then eventually ending up back in the group and essentially starting over, you guys keep trying the same thing over and over?

If something doesn't work, then it just doesn't work and logic would dictate a different approach.  It seems to be very self-defeating to try and use a methodology that, I don't know, perhaps shows that it does not work for you.

I don't know the answer, but I can see from the expereices that are recounted and repeated that whatever ya'll are doing is a process that keeps on repeating and addressing the same or variations ofthe same issues over and over again.

Believe me, I am no stranger to this.  I struggle with this quesiton daily, too.
I know we can't fix every human flaw and be perfect all the time - that would be boring. But I guess I just don't get the whole mentality.

[landyh]

On 2005-12-01 05:54:00, Anonymous wrote:

"All you guys took from my post was "first grade".



Can anyone explain to me why, after repeated use of "the Seed or AA tools" and having it work for a while, but then eventually ending up back in the group and essentially starting over, you guys keep trying the same thing over and over?



If something doesn't work, then it just doesn't work and logic would dictate a different approach.  It seems to be very self-defeating to try and use a methodology that, I don't know, perhaps shows that it does not work for you.



I don't know the answer, but I can see from the expereices that are recounted and repeated that whatever ya'll are doing is a process that keeps on repeating and addressing the same or variations ofthe same issues over and over again.



Believe me, I am no stranger to this.  I struggle with this quesiton daily, too.

I know we can't fix every human flaw and be perfect all the time - that would be boring. But I guess I just don't get the whole mentality.



"

Fair enough but have you read my other posts here? First in my mind that I have had nearly 17 years of sobriety out of the last 20 doesn't seem so terrible to me. You say it doesn't work yet in fact it does for a remarkable number of people. That is a fact. No it doesn't work for everybody. That is inarguable. When I slipped after 14 years of sobriety I was dealing with a son who had lost his hearing to meningitis and his mom who couldn't get over it. And I hadn't really worked the program or sought support from it for a number of years. Does that mean the program failed me? Did I need something? Well perhaps you don't really know what it?s like to be totally obsessed by something that is killing you, robbing you of your values, your family, your health, your freedom and yet not be able to stop. Yes there have been bumps in the road but the funny thing is my life works when I work the program. Keep in mind that I am talking about AA not the seed and there is a huge difference though that wasn't so true at the beginning. If you have never been in the position where you just can't go on drinking anymore yet you still can't stop then you simply can't possibly comprehend what that feels like. For me AA connects me with God and alcohol separates me from him. I have experienced miracles in my life because of that relationship with God. I experienced hell because of my relationship with alcohol. You talk about this cycle of failure seeking redemption and it just isn't the way it is. Though I can confess to sometimes being overwhelmed by the opportunities and success that sobriety brings me nobody would willfully turn away from it to return to the desperation of alcoholic drinking for some pipe dream of forgiveness. The only forgiveness I seek I already have unconditionally. Turning away from that is exactly what the insanity of alcoholism is. It isn't explainable or understandable in any truly scientific way but through experience. If you haven?t had that experience I am glad for you but don't try to boil down my feelings and my own experience which I have expressed unreservedly and un-anonymously here to some narrow viewpoint that fits the way you think things are. Instead of being attacked by you for what doesn't fit into perception of things why don't you share your own experience? At that point I'll listen and take you seriously. In fact it is only because you began to do that in your last post that I responded again, but I'm willing to back up and listen if you?re willing to share your own experience in lieu of attacking mine.

[Anonymous]

Well you are right. I absolutely cannot relate to the continued obsession that some people have. And perhaps that is why I just see it as something that is so black and white - if it's bad for you then its bad for you and you just don't do it.  Period.

I did experience addication with freebase cocaine for a while back in the early 1980's, post-seed.  I saw what it did to my health, my personal realtions, my honor, and least of all my bank account.  I guess I was lucky in that I did stop.  And while I may get slammed for sounding ungrateful to some group or higher power, I just stopped. Period.  There was no back and forth on the issue, no bargaining with god, no groups, no nothing. But I did lie there shaking and sick and sleepless and I never touched it again.  I don't think that makes me any better or worse than anyone else.  I just chose not to use again because the consequences were so fucked up and I could see it was a killer.

Now?  I have way too much to lose now to ever even think about going back, let alone taking a snort or picking up a pipe. The past is the past. I am not proud of it and I had all but forgotten those few months until this time.

I've not meant to be cruel in my statement, but sometimes it seems that the seedlings who go on to AA or other step-type programs really do wear that as some kind of badge of honor - like unless I have lost like you guys I can't possibly understand how complicated your feelings and thoughts are or how important they are. Maybe tht's not the intent of what you or others put out there, but honestly, that's what I perceive.  Somehow, my thoughts and feelings are less valid becasue I don't subscribe to your belief system.  Funny, isn't it that we both make each other feel that way. What is it about us that causes that?

I went to the seed, I smoked pot maybe a half dozen times before my parents got brainwashed and put me in there and I did a hell of a lot more drugs post-seed than I care to remember. But I still managed to walk away because I paid attention to the results.  

What I can't understand is why there would be any question in any persons mind about whether or not he or she could do that again (you drink -me smoke freebase cocaine (is that now crack?)).

Is there a question in your mind that maybe you can drink?  Is there some kind of "want" to do it even with knowledge that you never should because of the results?   Look at what Walter wrote about his sister and the drama.  Is that what it is?    

For me? It's just not an option.  I have have no desire to. Alcohol might be pervasive but like coke, you still gotta make an effort to search it out. And while one is searching, there's time to change your mind.

You also wrote this:
It isn't explainable or understandable in any truly scientific way but through experience. If you haven?t had that experience I am glad for you but don't try to boil down my feelings and my own experience which I have expressed unreservedly and un-anonymously here to some narrow viewpoint that fits the way you think things are. Instead of being attacked by you for what doesn't fit into perception of things why don't you share your own experience?


Sooo...First of all, what difference does it make if I chose to remain anonymous ? I have replied back and put myself out, too.

While you may have perceived my initial post as an attack, I look at your collective stated experiences (and I've been reading here on this  board for well over a year), and then I read what JaLong writes back which I will leave you to review again-then I think on my experience and I wonder why you guys feel the need to get so "strokey" and pet each other for living and getting through life. Isn't that what we should be doing anyway?   Hell, we all live life.  We experience happiness, sorrow, loss, and goodness - everything. It's the human condition.  The sun is still the same and so is the grass, birds and the flowers. Forgive me, but I think it's just a matter of whether you pay attention to what's there.  

If the stove is hot - don't touch it.  It's the lesson I was taught, it's the lesson I taught my kid. I guess I am just that simplisitic. Anyway, that's my experience with addiction. It didn't take much to turn me off of it entirely.

[ChrisL]

Quote "I think on my experience and I wonder why you guys feel the need to get so "strokey" and pet each other for living and getting through life. Isn't that what we should be doing anyway? Hell, we all live life."  

I give the strokes, because I like the strokes, strokes and pets are good, good....

"If the stove is hot - don't touch it. It's the lesson I was taught, it's the lesson I taught my kid. I guess I am just that simplisitic."

Err.. yes that is pretty simplistic...I think the point is that yes some of us (very few) have the ability or the will, or power to do it on our own, whatever the "it" is, give up, sacrifice, change, love, start doing something, stop doing something...  I just always found it so much better, easier, sweeter,(insert adjective) meant more and continues to mean more (to me, no one else) when I made the commitment to a group and shared my success with a group, whether this is your friends, colleagues, AA group, family, church, higher power or yourself (provided of course there is more than one voice...) no seriously though,

Also everyone makes mistakes, slips, screw ups, thats a part of being human, just because something doesn't work the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 8th ... time doesn't mean you just give up... the fun is in the trip not the arrival. Hell it took me 4 times to quit smoking (working on 8+ years this time), but I kept trying, Love you guys & gals!

[landyh]

On 2005-12-01 12:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Well you are right. I absolutely cannot relate to the continued obsession that some people have. And perhaps that is why I just see it as something that is so black and white - if it's bad for you then its bad for you and you just don't do it.  Period.



I did experience addication with freebase cocaine for a while back in the early 1980's, post-seed.  I saw what it did to my health, my personal realtions, my honor, and least of all my bank account.  I guess I was lucky in that I did stop.  And while I may get slammed for sounding ungrateful to some group or higher power, I just stopped. Period.  There was no back and forth on the issue, no bargaining with god, no groups, no nothing. But I did lie there shaking and sick and sleepless and I never touched it again.  I don't think that makes me any better or worse than anyone else.  I just chose not to use again because the consequences were so fucked up and I could see it was a killer.



Now?  I have way too much to lose now to ever even think about going back, let alone taking a snort or picking up a pipe. The past is the past. I am not proud of it and I had all but forgotten those few months until this time.



I've not meant to be cruel in my statement, but sometimes it seems that the seedlings who go on to AA or other step-type programs really do wear that as some kind of badge of honor - like unless I have lost like you guys I can't possibly understand how complicated your feelings and thoughts are or how important they are. Maybe tht's not the intent of what you or others put out there, but honestly, that's what I perceive.  Somehow, my thoughts and feelings are less valid becasue I don't subscribe to your belief system.  Funny, isn't it that we both make each other feel that way. What is it about us that causes that?



I went to the seed, I smoked pot maybe a half dozen times before my parents got brainwashed and put me in there and I did a hell of a lot more drugs post-seed than I care to remember. But I still managed to walk away because I paid attention to the results.  



What I can't understand is why there would be any question in any persons mind about whether or not he or she could do that again (you drink -me smoke freebase cocaine (is that now crack?)).



Is there a question in your mind that maybe you can drink?  Is there some kind of "want" to do it even with knowledge that you never should because of the results?   Look at what Walter wrote about his sister and the drama.  Is that what it is?    



For me? It's just not an option.  I have have no desire to. Alcohol might be pervasive but like coke, you still gotta make an effort to search it out. And while one is searching, there's time to change your mind.



You also wrote this:

It isn't explainable or understandable in any truly scientific way but through experience. If you haven?t had that experience I am glad for you but don't try to boil down my feelings and my own experience which I have expressed unreservedly and un-anonymously here to some narrow viewpoint that fits the way you think things are. Instead of being attacked by you for what doesn't fit into perception of things why don't you share your own experience?





Sooo...First of all, what difference does it make if I chose to remain anonymous ? I have replied back and put myself out, too.



While you may have perceived my initial post as an attack, I look at your collective stated experiences (and I've been reading here on this  board for well over a year), and then I read what JaLong writes back which I will leave you to review again-then I think on my experience and I wonder why you guys feel the need to get so "strokey" and pet each other for living and getting through life. Isn't that what we should be doing anyway?   Hell, we all live life.  We experience happiness, sorrow, loss, and goodness - everything. It's the human condition.  The sun is still the same and so is the grass, birds and the flowers. Forgive me, but I think it's just a matter of whether you pay attention to what's there.  



If the stove is hot - don't touch it.  It's the lesson I was taught, it's the lesson I taught my kid. I guess I am just that simplisitic. Anyway, that's my experience with addiction. It didn't take much to turn me off of it entirely. "

I was in your shoes and I was not ignorant in any way as to the damage I was doing and perhaps that I was so aware of what I was doing made it that much worse, because in spite of all my self knowlege I couldn't stop. I would have given anything to stop but it took me awhile to find a way to do that. I accept that it is black and white for you based on your experience but I for one realize that my own experience was not that simple. All I was asking is for you to realize that the differences in our experiences fail to diminsih the validity of either. Can you see that. I don't in any way devalue your story just because things just didn't work that way for me. I just would appreciate at least the same consideration. I don't mean that to sound harsh either as your last post and the way you shared is something that reaches me. While I believe there are truths that are common to us all those truths lie at a deeper level than the things that happen to us. Those things can be quite different from person to person. You and I are different in our experience with addiction but do you really think any of us went to AA because we wanted to belong to some group? It was my refuge of last resort and I nearly killed myself trying to avoid the fact that it was what this alcoholic needed. Do I still consider drinking? Yes sometimes or a better way to say it would be to say that I sometimes wish I could drink normally and in moderation. On the other hand I am no longer the victim of an obsession to drink and believe me there is an enormous difference.
I hate to say this but "thanks for sharing"

[Anonymous]

Okay.  I wish you the best.  Thanks for your insight.