The Final Days

[Antigen]

On 2005-02-06 21:39:00, Thom wrote:

"A note to those looking around the internet for recovery support ? fair warning:

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

See? This is what I'm talkin' about, brother! You know you didn't have a drug problem when you were 14 (which, btw, is not what you were saying last time we talked or the time before that or when you were posting here before) And you say you've been sober for 13 years now (aside from.... well, better not, it's your private business) And yet, for some reason, you seem to have made a lifestyle of the Program.

Why would you expect this site to be about "recovery support"? Is it labeled as an AA support group? Or is it just that you expect the whole world to share your perspective on the matter?

Just like The Orange Papers http://www.orange-papers.org/ is about and not a part of AA, this is a site about various treatment facilities and TBSs. This site is not a part of any of them.

And yes, there is quite a bit of hostility around here lately. But have you notices that, for the most part, it's coming from you? And, btw, I don't know if Fred Rogers would apreciate having that sort of tone affiliated w/ his image. Your other idea was much more apropos.

In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[GregFL]

Thom, I went back and read your post again.


You enetered the Seed voluntarily, at age 14, for a maturity problem?

You seem to think I have reading comprehension (and spelling) issues. Therefore, correct me here.

Your major problem was "maturity" and you voluntarily went in the seed?

Why? Were you already a seed sibling? What prompted this voluntary surrender of your 14 year old freedom?

Thanks.

[Antigen]

Yeah, come to think of it, I've always wondered how it all began. I know you and I have tried to have this conversation in private. But somehow it always winds up in a brawl.

I have to tell you, too, that I almost look forward to it. It's about the only kind of communication I've had w/ you in decades now and ... well, nobody does it better. Blow for blow, there's just nothing like a good old morning sermon and none but us goddamned kids and mom ever learned the lingo.

Maybe we can both be on our best behavior here with all the guests?

And I would like to know who went first, why, did Billi recruit Mom or was it the other way around? What's our history, big brother. I really want to know.

After all, who wouldn't prefer Middle Earth, unless they've been corrupted by a Ring of Power?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/elkins/elkins73.html' target='_new'>Jeff Elkins; Tolkien's Libertarian Vision

[Stripe]

Did anybody notice the use of the word "seedation". I've not seen that used here before altough it may have been.  That's a good word to describe what happens to children who ARE NOT addicted and get programmed to be beleive they are. It makes one a zombie.  

Seedated people go through life, searching, living on the edge and running with the big dogs but never really making it in phase of life.    For some reason I was never able to truly get addicted to anything but I sure as hell did try to live up to that label for a few years.

None of the "seedation" became apparent to me until I realized I was programmed to believe I was an addict.  My life has not been a waste by any means, although I have been what might be termed "a late bloomer" all my life. Who knows what I might have accomplished by now if I had not been "seedated".

Hey Thom, you don't know me, but I can almost guarantee you that there is nothing inherently wrong with you. You were never brokern or damaged until you were "seedated".  

I was asleep at the wheel for 30 years.  Man, it's great to be awake. :wave:

[Thom]

Hey Stripe,
  I was wondering if anyone saw that (seedation). I think I made it up, but someone may have used it somewhere. Although I don't feel wordy to be called a 'writer', I do get enjoyment out of wordcoinagization. Thanks for noticing.
  My experience was a bit different. I never really felt like an addict until in my 30's when I wanted to stop a behavior, and could not. I never really identified with the 'drug addicts' at the Seed, except that I did beleive my casual drug use could conceivably escalate to a higher level. I had never even been exposed to coke, speed, heroin, and stuff like that up to that time. Watching the way some of the staff acted, kind of brain damaged, put a good scare into me for a while, and probably helped to keep my drug use reined in. So, I quess what I was thinking when I used the word 'seedation' was that my experience at the Seed slowed me down abit in the area of drug use.
   As far as feeling like I was broken or damaged, I didn't and don't. That's just a theory Ginger seems to be fixated on for the last 20 years or so. I do wish she would move on from it. It makes engaging in any normal dialog nearly impossible. It always gets around to 'Thom, there is nothing wrong with you, stop beating yourself up' stuff. I'm almost 50 now, and don't really see much value in re-hashing stuff that happened 30 years ago.
   I just popped in last week to wish Ginger a happy birthday, since last time I checked, she had my email address blocked, and I don't know a phone number or address, and then Greg, 'the monster at the side of the group' jumps in wanting to stir up discussions we had a couple years ago...I really don't have time for this these days. I pretty much live in the 'now' (although now and then in the then, but I won't deal with that now)
Take care, and thanks for picking up on 'my' word  :wave: have a good life![ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-08 13:10 ][ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-02-08 13:25 ]

[GregFL]

Sorry you perceive things like that Thom. Your perception isn't always shared by everyone else tho. You have a way of saying things that begg to be discussed/challenged and then getting all indignant when people do so.


But more importantly, you have a sister here that I think is pretty cool. That you two cannot have an extended civil moment, and it seems to mostly surround program dogma issues, is evidence of the way the seed destroyed families.

Thanks for popping in from time to time to provide evidence of that in real time.

Wishing you the best, and a power enabled future.


GregFL

[Thom]

Yea, just like that, see what I mean Stripe?

[Anonymous]

Thom:

It's tough all the way around the seed place - now and then.  My brother and I were in Ft.Lauderdale from March of 73 till sometime in 1974.  He was 19/20, I was 14/15.  

Being in there did not kill our friendship, but I can see how in the case of entire families, rigid program dogma might have some really negative impact.  I surely don't know what I can say to make anything any difference for you and your sister.  Forgiveness is one word I would stress.  
     
For me and my brother, the experience sucked the life out of us and sent us down some long, hairy roads.  But through it all we managed to stay kind and watch out for each other.  

I've only been hanging out in this forum since November '04. I don't think Greg is looking to hurt you or jump on you.  There is some history I obviously am not privy to that might make everyone's reactions more understandable to an outsider, but those are private matters.  Forgiveness.
 
It took me a while to get used to reactions from people about statements I make - some times my comments make people react and frankly,sometimes people make react.  But I like to think I'm an open-minded person, so I have to consider other's view points.  I don't have to believe them, use them,  or take them to heart - just consider them.  That's the beauty of it all - the discussion.  Resolution will eventually come for us all.  
 
I have one Seedling friend I dearly love - but she and I are like oil and water on some of this stuff, but it still doesn't change the fact that she has also been a friend for many many years. We have just agreed to disagree about some stuff.  I don't think it makes eitehr of us wrong.

Can you see that idea in relation to your family?  Hope I see and read your words again.
Stripe

[GregFL]

I think the thing that triggers this whole thing off for me, other than the fact that I count Ginger a close friend, is that my family was also shredded by the Seed right along pro/con issues.

I was the con. I absolutely rejected everything seedling as soon as I could, and I paid a dear price. I lost my father for the remainder of my teenage years. My sister ended up having a close relationship with him which further seperated us. As I went into adulthood, no one would listen to me. In college I researched the seed and came up with all sorts of interesting stuff, but no one would hear it. I almost got in a fistfight with Art, and my family dismissed the whole thing offhand.  

As I got older any discussion ended up with it was bad and hurtfull/it saved your otherwise deadinsaneinjail life. I remained frustrated and on the fringe of the more accepted dogma embracing people in the family.  

This crap hurt. Finally it stopped but only because my anger left and my argument is too strong for them to challenge it anymore. My sister came around and stopped buckling under my fathers efforts to squelch examination of what happened.

However, I see remnants of my situation in this discussion and I somehow just wish it would fix itself.

Thom, you are always welcome here, I don't care how you feel or what your opinion of me is.  I also wish you would understand it is sometimes a tad uncomfortable to watch this unfold in public for others, including me.

[GregFL]

And yes Thom, I picked up on the "Seedation" word also in your post.

It is a creepy word attached to a creepy place.

[Anonymous]

Thom I hope you and your sister can just agree to disagree and move on from all of this. I was in tears reading your posts. Life is too short to stay estranged from loved ones.

[Antigen]

I'd just really like to know where it all started. But I guess I never will. Oh, and Thom, I have a spam filter. It sends out a challenge response that explains it. You seem to be one of about 5 people on the planet who have any trouble getting in touch w/ me ever.

If once [the people] become inattentive to the public affairs,
you and I, and Congress and Assemblies, Judges and Governors,
shall all become wolves.  It seems to be the law of our general
nature, in spite of individual exceptions.


http://laissezfairebooks.com/product.cfm?op=view&pid=FF7485&aid=10247' target='_new'>Thomas Jefferson to Edward Carrington, 1787

[Anonymous]

Hey Wtaylorg,

I may remember you even thoug I was a kid when you were down, you can email me at [email protected] if you want to discuss more.  

Hope to hear from you.

[Anonymous]

Hey John  :wave: are you a glofer or a golfer?

[Anonymous]

"I heard about the Seed when I was 7. that was 1975. I wnet into the program when I was 14 then again later because I had a "relapse", basically I had a couple of beers on Friday after and was an alcoholic.


 Staff at the end tried to play innocent and , but really they ran the Seed at the end and didn't tell Art most things, he was gone by then. It's a shame, because I know a lot of people who dedicated most of their lives thinking they were doing the right thing only to feel like they were swindled and confused at the end. <[/quote]


Anon, what do you mean that "staff was also gone by the time they "blasted art"? Please, explain for those of us who have been disconnected from The Seed?