Author Topic: If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should  (Read 4527 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2004, 10:19:00 PM »
Actually, Antigen, you say something I strongly...
AGREE WITH! :smile:
I think that we should defund the gov't and get rid of a majority of Federal agencies.  A writer stated once that we were overwhelmed with pointless and useless bureaucracy.  We have a dept of education that's never taught a child, a dept of energy that never produced a watt, a dept of housing and urban development that never housed a soul, and so on.  I think a lot of these could be shrunk or removed.  They provide little more than a job for some and a suck on our wallets.  Most of their work is mediocre and pointless as far as I'm concerned.  Studies and ad campaigns telling us to buy eggs or aluminum siding or what-have-you.  I think the states could replace them, if necessary, easily.  They didn't always exist.  I think politics belong at the local level.  Plato, in one of my favorite quotes of all time, is quoted as saying "They who wear the boot know best where it pinches."  That says it all for me.  Enjoy-Polarbear
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Offline Antny

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2004, 10:49:00 PM »
Good point, useless offices surely exist...but isn't that justifieable because it at least provides jobs?  That seems to justify a lot of other injustices.  Here's an interesting factoid, Approximately 50% of Federal budget goes to the military, 6% goes to education.  And to get your little piece of that 6%, your schoold district has to do well enough on the standardised tests...which notoriously favor white children from affluent homes.  So effectively, the rich districts get richer.  That seems to be a common trend lately.  More and more millionaires and more and more lower middle class Americans.  It looks like the system is purposefully broadening the social stratification, even down to the level of Elementary Education.  That's what the Bush Administration cleverly titled "No Child Left Behind"  Heard it put that way before...no, it's about accountability, and diagnosis.  So the cure for bad grades is withholding federal funding for the schools who score low until they can show "adequate yearly progress"??? WoW!!!:-?

And get this, now the Bush Admin's newest plan is to have mandatory psychological evaluations for children at Elementary levels. This one is cleverly titled the "New Freedom Initiative"  Oh yeah, lets make their teachers take the psych eval too.  Who do you think's gonna get rich off that one?  The pharmaseutical industry.  As if we don't have enough kids that are overmedicated and still spend all their time in front of the TV and playing video games.  [ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-28 20:01 ][ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-28 20:06 ][ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-28 20:10 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2004, 11:27:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-10-28 19:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Actually, Antigen, you say something I strongly...

AGREE WITH! :smile:

I think that we should defund the gov't and get rid of a majority of Federal agencies.  A writer stated once that we were overwhelmed with pointless and useless bureaucracy.  We have a dept of education that's never taught a child, a dept of energy that never produced a watt, a dept of housing and urban development that never housed a soul, and so on.  I think a lot of these could be shrunk or removed.  They provide little more than a job for some and a suck on our wallets.  Most of their work is mediocre and pointless as far as I'm concerned.  Studies and ad campaigns telling us to buy eggs or aluminum siding or what-have-you.  I think the states could replace them, if necessary, easily.  They didn't always exist.  I think politics belong at the local level.  Plato, in one of my favorite quotes of all time, is quoted as saying "They who wear the boot know best where it pinches."  That says it all for me.  Enjoy-Polarbear"


Gee what would all you lazy bleeding heart feel good artsy feel sorry for me because I don't work hard enough types, do with no social programs????? that means you would actually have to work....PLATO, that says it all!!!!! unlike YOU I AM A REALIST, PLATO what a fucking joke , you might as well quote Stallin or Mau(or how ever you spell it) Wake the fuck up....no go back to sleep and dream , because that is were PLATO's reality lives...in your dreams. Big cars, big guns, red meat and NFL...that is at least reality...PLATO  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
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Offline Polarbear

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2004, 11:30:00 PM »
Excue me, I failed to log that in correctly.  The next to the last post was me, Good ol' Polarbear.

To Antny-
Oddly enough, I like to think of myself as a student of history as well.  Odder still, I am into reenacting, too-WW II Red Army.  I also got impressions for WWII US Army ETO, and Viet Cong.  
I do see the parallels with Roman history.  And I have operated under the assumption that we were spinning around the drain for some time.  But I focus on the Republic instead of the Empire.  And the corruption of that period wasn't as much the problem as the open nature of the political system.  Many things were codified by tradition, not law.  If the Romans had stayed within their social/cultural confines, things would have continued apace.  But ambition and lust for power were too tempting and force against the politcal process became acceptable.  Anything could be accomplished because rules didn't exist to stop it-just convention and tradition.  I see the similarites much more evident than the Empire.  We don't have much of an Empire urge.  We do have a problem with people exercising the same license to the detriment of liberty as the Romans I mentioned above.

I don't think our international image is as important as you seem to.  Loyalty and honor among nations is about as dependable as with thieves.  Those who like us are almost as big a liability as those who don't.  (You would be surprised just how much our friends spy on us and steal from us.) Just look at the recent attempts to monkey with our internal politics!

Those who don't like us still recognize our strength and our trade value.  Upon our whims and opinions fortunes are made.  At this point the world can't exist without us.  I wouldn't worry about their unhappiness with us.  (Love is fleeting anyway, I would rather have nations fear and respect us than love us.)

If you're talking about the Iraq situation, let me point out that the French, Russians, and Germans are upset with us about it because of what they lost.  They had huge fortunes tied up in debts with Saddam.  They supplied his nuclear programs, weapons and armaments, chemicals, and other resources.  The Saddam regime owed all of them a great deal.  The Russians knew we didn't approve.  Why else did they spirit out of Iraq most of Saddam's high explosives, NBC-related equipment and resources, high-tech weapons, rocket components and so on while destroying thousands of pages of documents showing the connection?  Putin supports Bush even as he deals with our diverging strategic interests.

For now we're on top.  I say enjoy it while you can and prepare for the day the bill comes due.  I figure when the rest of the world realizes we can't pay off the interest on our bills we'll plummet to the bottom, their economies will collapse, and the world economy will hit the crapper.  Dollar bills will be worth less than toilet paper when it happens.  Save up!  :lol:
Enjoy-Polarbear[ This Message was edited by: Polarbear on 2004-10-28 20:31 ]
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Offline Polarbear

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2004, 11:37:00 PM »
What are you talking about Anon?  That quote is one of the most sensible things ever said. Stalin and Mao have nothing to do with it.  Why don't you spend some time composing messages that make sense.  If you put some time into punctuation it would make your posting easier to understand, too.  Enjoy-Polarbear
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Offline Polarbear

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2004, 12:55:00 AM »
Now THAT is an interesting figure.  Eisenhower warned us of the dangers of the military-industrial complex.  One thing I've found interesting is the way that funding gets spread out.  Now, I would love to see the school system do better, but the last time I cared to look our education system spends more money per capita than anyone else in the world.  What's the amount now?  And we get less for our investment every year.  To the point where we have graduates incapable of reading their diplomas.  Even a cruddy 3rd rate school should be able to accomplish that much.  Hell, schools used to be 1 room with all grades mixed and they taught a harder curriculum than we teach today.
 
Want to know why a smaller % is spent on education?  Because no one cares.  I've heard similar statistics all my life.  My teacher complained to me in 6th grade that garbagemen made more than she did.  If a couple decades isn't sufficient to fix it, why worry now?  No one cares.

I think school is important, but the guvvament schools are sort of like your "suggested minimum" when it comes to education.  Sorry, but unless someone clues you in after your done with a day in one of those ignorance mills, you're screwed.  You probably won't get far graduating from one of those.  I've always learned more outside of classes than I did inside.  Even through college.  I learned a great deal more on the outside on my own initiative.  I plan on homeschooling if at all possible.  I'm not convinced that the poor results we get for public education aren't intended anyway.  How can we get such poor results, even with what we throw at schools these days?  

Besides, don't you know what we're developing towards?  An intellectual aristocracy.  A small group of well-educated techno-crats and experts in control of a mass of illiterate, dysfunctional, distracted, tools.  And why not?  Look at the morons we're swamped with now.  Let's embrace it and enjoy our future privileges.  We'll be happy while the gammas do whatever it is gammas do...

As for the military budget-HAHAHAHAH!:lol:
I'm in the army and I never see much of that money.  Most of it goes to massive pointless weapons systems and cosmetic changes. Well, at least the new uniform will be cool.

Enjoy-Polarbear
 [ This Message was edited by: Polarbear on 2004-10-28 22:15 ]
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Offline Deborah

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If the government does not trust me with my guns, why should
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2004, 09:01:00 AM »
I agree with most of what you said, but its horseshit that garbage collectors earn more than teachers. Perhaps that is closer to being true in the poorest of poor districts, but I doubt it. My heart doesn't bleed for teachers. They are paid well, pretty high up there on the pay scale, and they get the summer off.

Regarding those 'tests', the ones that are required every other year to assess the system and student.
My grandson was subject to that in third grade. They claimed he was having problems with 'comprehension'. My daughter paid $500 for a private tutor/consultant only to find out he was right on course. That was a horrible year. The year he decided he hated school and didn't want to go. My daughter and I read some of the practice questions and just shook our heads. So much of it was abstract thinking. Questions that had more than one answer depending on one's perception.

Now this year, fifth grade, the district called my daghter in to say that my grandson was 'at risk'. At risk of WHAT? At risk of failing a test which expects him to already know 50% of the material he will be exposed to this year. She finally took my advice and told the teacher she didn't give a flying f about their diagnostic test. That she wasn't going to put herself or her son through the anxiety and distress they'd been through 2 years ago.
And what a waste of tax dollars and teachers' time. The district pays tens of thousands of dollars for these tests to assess whether or not the kids know 50% of what they are to learn that year.

Education is a money-making racket, and lauded as the 'cure' for poverty. Just read that only 22% of jobs in this country require a degree. If everyone went to college, where will they all work?  And no society could function if everyone was a middle class 'professional'. We need diversity, and a living wage. That's the cure to poverty.

I homeschooled for the first couple of years, then my kids went to Montessori. I really like that system of education. If the public system were to adopt it, we'd see many of the 'problems' corrected immediately. But, then school is not about what's best for the kids or education, but social conditioning.

John Taylor Gatto's work 'The Underground History of Education' is great on that subject:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm
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Offline Antny

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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2004, 09:45:00 AM »
Quote

On 2004-10-28 21:55:00, Polarbear wrote:

"Now THAT is an interesting figure.  Eisenhower warned us of the dangers of the military-industrial complex.  One thing I've found interesting is the way that funding gets spread out.  Now, I would love to see the school system do better, but the last time I cared to look our education system spends more money per capita than anyone else in the world.  ""

Yeah, just like you said about the military, and all that money that goes to where???  Pointless weapons systems...right, the coorporations like Haliburton, etc...

In education, it's sort of similar, a huge portion of the funding goes to the publishing coorporations that develop and grade the "standardized tests".   They are the same coorporations that get the huge contracts for statewide adoption of textbooks.  Who gets to pick first?  Texas and Florida do.  The textbooks are whitewashed and watered down to the point where kids think we were "nice" to the Indians and have never heard of the "Holocaust".

Can you believe those bleeding heart liberal who fought for the right to teach "evolutionism" in school.  Remember that argument, the creationism v evolutionism argument.  That's the kind of control the conservatives would like to have over the information available.  It's the same phoenomena going on with the mainstream media coverage of current events.  We only hear what they want us to hear.  That's why it's so important to give horrid new bills cool sounding names like:
"Healthy Forest Initiative" = Clearcutting
"Clean Air Act" = Rollbacks on emmissions standards
"No Child Left behind" = bad poor kids!
"New Freedon Initiative" = Mandatory psych evals.

"The Patriot Act = uhh American KGB? - you guys see the "Lone Star Clause" within the Patriot Act? - the President has the right to redraw state lines in case of "National Security" - which Bush obviously thinks is Him remaining President.  Really?  Texas could annex it's neighboring states, and pool the popular vote so that the Electoral College votes from all the states go to one candidate (presumably Bush if his Texas base holds fast) - NOT ME!
Gerrymandering on a National Level in a Presedential Election.  That's how the Republicans got control in Texas, thankl you for the ass rape, Mr Delay!

[ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-29 07:08 ]
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Offline Antny

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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2004, 10:06:00 AM »
To Polar Bear,

I strongly agree with the vast majority of what you say.  One place that I haven't lost my faith completely (though I have serious doubts) is in the Ability of America to reform and change.  

My point Internationally is basically that we can't really afford to give such a large percentage a valid reason to unite against the U.S.  You're right, we're on top now, and by playing the Game of Houses wisely, we could stay there indefinately based on the resources at our disposal.  However, acting unilaterally and as a big bad bully "Team America, World Police" we will have more enemies than we can deal with simultaneously.

The Romans, as I understand it, basically incorporated the cultures of the peoples they conquered into their traditions.  They "assimilated", and spread a constantly morphing Christianity around the Empire (after Constantine made it officially the "Religion") Obviously that was a long process, but in the end, we ended up with this collage of different faiths under one umbrella.  Funny how modern day Christians think that it was always that way, and Christ made it that way.  Look at the influence of Druidism on Christianity.  Even many of today's "Holidays" are adaptations of Celtic traditions of Druidism. Easter, Halloween, etc...

Hence my argument:  The hipocracy, and righteousness at the top of America is small minded, and uninformed in the realm of reality.  Bush truly believes in the "End of Days", and thinks this is it. That may very well become a Self-fulfilling Prophecy if he is allowed to make it so!  I say that we, the few informed intellectual types who believe that we can inhabit this planet indefinitely, are obligated to dispell the fanaticism of Bush!
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Offline Polarbear

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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2004, 04:41:00 PM »
I don't think you can hold his religious beliefs against him.  Bush will not drag America into collapse to serve his beliefs.  I probably have similar beliefs to Bush, but I'm not ready to commit hari-kari right now.  If the world is about to end, so be it.  I'm going to live my life and burn that bridge when I get to it.  If Bush wanted to operate in the manner you seem to indicate, why run for president?  There would be no reason to-the world's coming to an end.  Shoot, why not retire, quit seeking profits and working and just relax on the ranch and wait it out???  And he didn't state exactly what time frame these end times are, did he?  Seems to me that in some cases the "end times" are believed to last a thousand years.  
Enjoy-Polarbear
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Offline Deborah

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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2004, 06:59:00 PM »
Well, those who understand our utterly dependence on the Earth that sustains our every need certainly do hold his religous beliefs against him. I don't want him making policies based on his interpretation of the bible. Excerpts from a very lengthy article.

For many leading Republicans, dying coral reefs and melting ice caps are welcomed as signs of the Rapture.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15814

Why Ecocide Is 'Good News' for the GOP

The federal government -- with Republicans in control of the White House, Congress and the judiciary -- has launched the largest rollback of environmental laws and regulations ever. The Bush administration seems determined to undo much of the good done since Earth Day 1970, when 20 million Americans defended the planet in the biggest mass demonstration of U.S. history.

The reasons behind Republican anti-environmentalism have often been stated but deserve review: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are former oil men who believe in the efficiency of the marketplace. Market conservatives tend to see environmentalists as either frivolous tree-huggers or dangerous monkey-wrenching eco-terrorists. They dismiss good environmental science as the doomsaying of the loony left.

Almost by definition, they lack an understanding of such concepts as sustainability, carrying capacity, biodiversity or webs of interdependence. And of course, promoting any policies that go against immediate economic goals would put the administration up against strong corporate interests. The American auto industry, for example, remains a powerful economic engine in many states; if SUV sales are keeping domestic automakers afloat, the automakers will resist spending millions to impose tough new fuel efficiency standards on these vehicles.

Nevertheless, beyond all these more obvious anti-environmental motivations there lies a more deep-seated inspiration. Difficult as it may be to believe, many of the conservatives who have great influence in the Bush administration and now in Congress are governed by a Higher Power.

In his book "The Carbon Wars," Greenpeace activist Jeremy Leggett tells how he stumbled upon this otherworldly agenda. During the Kyoto climate change negotiations, Leggett candidly asked Ford Motor Company executive John Schiller how opponents of the pact could believe there is no problem with "a world of a billion cars intent on burning all the oil and gas available on the planet?" The executive asserted first that scientists get it wrong when they say fossil fuels have been sequestered underground for eons. The Earth, he said, is just 10,000, not 4.5 billion years old, the age widely accepted by scientists.

Then Schiller confidently declared, "You know, the more I look, the more it is just as it says in the Bible." The Book of Daniel, he told Leggett, predicts that increased earthly devastation will mark the "End Time" and return of Christ. Paradoxically, Leggett notes, many fundamentalists see dying coral reefs, melting ice caps and other environmental destruction not as an urgent call to action, but as God's will. In the religious right worldview, the wreck of the Earth can be seen as Good News!

Such misinformed viewpoints would be of little import except that, in the 1980s, they began permeating the Republican Party. That's when Republican strategists -- eager to broaden the party's narrow base of wealthy corporate supporters -- partnered with religious right leaders such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, who agreed to politicize their followers and bring them into the GOP, according to Bokaer.

As it turns out, politicians who ally themselves with the religious right are also rabidly anti-environmental. Those who score high with the Christian Coalition almost invariably score low with LCV.

For those who think the teaching of environmental science is safe in our schools, or that evolution vs. creationism is a dead issue, listen to this comment from Tom DeLay, one of the most powerful men in Congress. He suggested that the Columbine, Colorado school shootings occurred "because our school systems teach our children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial mud."

DeLay agrees with Ford executive Schiller that, despite the fossil evidence, the Earth is only thousands of years old. Such willful ignorance of science informs the religious right approach to the environment, and the embattled Earth will bear the consequences.
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Offline Polarbear

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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2004, 07:41:00 PM »
That's a sad story.  I didn't feel challenged much in school.  I was easily distracted and always found more interesting fare outside of classes to learn from and study.  Thank God my parents were happy to let me follow any pursuit I was interested in.  I was raised with so many options and opportunities.  
My thought for some time has been that we need to either dump this education system or go back to the basics of reading, writing, and arithmatic (sounds crazy, doesn't it?) and maybe even dig up the really insane stuff they used to teach kids.  Stuff like Latin, citizenship, music or chorus and so on.  I only say so because the old standards of the turn of the century were insane compared to today.  I've seen a famous test-something like the Iowa 8th grade standardized graduation test. On this test are a range of subjects ranging from history to math to grammar and others.  The test is so hard that I don't think I could pass it.  And most adults couldn't either.  Impressive.  We're used to a very watered down form of education here.  I've seen films on what is expected in English, German, and Japanese schools.  
I only say that we might need to tighten the screws because from what I understand much of education has been eroded by weak-willed and weak-minded do-gooders and bad educators.  I have heard of the new math where the results aren't as important as trying to solve it.  The Ebonics proposal to quit teaching correct English to Blacks and Latinos in California. (seems sort of like a way to insure their inability to operate within the system and the economy) I have also heard of sexual education courses aimed at early grade school kids.  That makes sense to me-teach 8 or 9 year-olds sexuality.  They don't need a childhood anyway.  And there are tons of examples of teachers trying to indoctrinate students with their own political ideas.  Last week it was a school in Montana explaining how a bunch of political party literature went home with kids.  I remember Sidwell Friends school in DC was criticized when they had their kids write an essay in the 90s titled, "Why I'm Ashamed to be White."  That must do wonders for a child's self esteem.  I remember DARE came into schools as I was on my way out.  I never had to do it, thank God.  Well, with all these different programs and alternative ways to confuse your kids what time are they putting into the basics?
Like I said before, there are people graduating who can't read their own diplomas.  

I remember when I was in college years ago there was a major called "Ed Studies."  It was teaching people to be teachers.  The problem I had with it was, aside from the people I met in it who seemed to be incompetent, the idea that you could study teaching and thus be a teacher.  It seemed to me that you should actually be learning real disciplines-like science or math or english or literature or political science and teaching from them.  What can you really hope to teach if you don't know anything about the subjects involved?

I also fault the lazy, selfish, parents of today who take no time to be a part of their kids' education.  Parents have to work with the schools to make sure their kids are learning things.  Actually look at their damn report cards and discuss what they're up to.  Hell, take an interest in their classes.  I remember there were parents who would help out the teacher when I was in school.  These days the wrong parts of their education appear to have been politicized.  And the parents spend little time involved with their kids' schools.  The only time many appear to get involved is to protest or fight with the school for disciplining their kids.  A guy was telling me the other day about a friend of his who teaches.  During a film or something a couple kids decided to go at it in the back of the room.  She caught a girl giving a guy a little oral while no one else was looking.  Of course the parents were upset with the school-their kids are always angels.  As for that one...I got no solution.  Just let me add that's why I want to teach my kid(s) at home.

Now as for the garbage man thing-it wasn't a fact.  It was the complaint of a teacher I had as a kid.  Go figure. :smile:  

Enjoy-Polarbear
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2004, 10:18:00 PM »
As an oldie, retired ex teacher, there are some things that Polarbear says that I find myself agreeing with.(although a hell of a lot of other things in the political sphere that are anathema to me)
But what he has to say has a lot to do with the "dumbing down" of America.  As it happens, I went through a school system in Britain where I was one year too late to take Latin and Greek.  Nevertheless, I was still taught the classical way and was well grounded in logic, mathematics, physics chemistry and biology.  (thank goodness in Britain we didn't have to battle with the creationists and their fundamentalism  -- the Scopes monkey trial, remember?).  I was well grounded in the disciplines of science and art.  Then I came to North America and was shocked upon taking my B.Ed degree that schools were not teaching English, for example, they were teaching ABOUT English as an academic subject.  It seemed that all the things that George Orwell was talking about "group-think", "doublethink" and the like was coming to pass in the N. American education system ofwhich I had become a part.  Moreover, I cringed when I found myself have to teach "Social Sudies" instead of the disciplines of Geography, History and Economics.  And I quickly learned that "political science" was totally political and devoid of any "science"
Education over the last 50 years (since I was in school) has changed, but not all of it is bad.  Certainly, there is much to be said for a more classical approach, and I commend the writings of Thomas Stearns Eliot to you for his thoughts on the subject.  But at the same time, not everything from the "liberal" or "progressive" approach is to be condemned either.  
What I think is a problem is that the schools of Education have too much of an emphasis on pedagogy or the methodology of teaching and insufficient emphasis on the substance, i.e. the essence of what is to be taught.  As a result, teachers graduate without sufficient grounding in the real disciplines of the subjects they are to teach.  
In High School I was fortunate to be taught English Language & Literature by an Oxford Graduate with a master's degree in English Literature, Mathematics by a PH.D  in Mathematics, Religious Knowledge by a PH.D in Theology, German from a PH.D in German and  Geography from a person who's first degree was in Geography.  How many teachers today have first degree's in the subjects they teach?  Not many!  I think it should be a pre-requisite of all teachers, at least in the secondary grades, that they should have a degree in some other discipline before they have their education credentials.
The key to better education lies in better educated teachers in the disciplines, NOT courses in methodology.
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