Author Topic: Those damned seminars, again...  (Read 9146 times)

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Offline Perrigaud

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2005, 01:56:00 AM »
Maybe. Then again who knows for sure. Maybe I'd a ended up hitting rock bottom (not jail) and still alive. Maybe then I would've stopped the shit I was doing. Maybe not, maybe I'd be still just getting by (not dead or in jail). The program came along and I happened to decided to do something different. Maybe I would have met someone special that would've influenced me to change for the best. The seminars aren't custom tailored but in my opinion I think that they are not for everyone. The program corruptively would suggest it for anyone and do so. That's what I don't agree with at all. I too have seen some people who ended up being really screwed up emotionally.
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2005, 04:05:00 AM »
The only thing that happened in the seminar was you surviving it, Perrigaud. Thats a good thing - but only for you and people with your constitution psychologically.

As far as "hitting rock bottom" or ending up in jail... you do realize sometime you'd realize what was up and just GROW UP. All teenagers ultimately do this unless something represses them.

Wanna see a fun example of this? My friends mom, 40, I wont name names incase she reads this forum (shes one of my cloest friends!) is pratically still a teenage girl at heart. She got married really, really young. We often finish eachothers thoughts actually. LOL.

And guess what? she has a strong bond with her kids (including my friend) and his friends, and they're doing just fine, even though they have had some troubles.

That right there says a lot. I'm very pro-family but not in the hierarchial, patriarchial cookie-cutter moral-majority kind of way.

The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Perrigaud

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2005, 04:26:00 AM »
I have a lot of friends whose parents can't support themselves as well as their kids. These parents are violent towards each other and their kids. Now, the cops have never been able to help because neither parent will rat the other one out. Not only that but they just don't assume any responsibility. Living on barely anything cause your mom refuses to work is hard. Knowing that there is violence amongst family is not any way to live. Having a 34 year old father that lives with his mother (your grandmother) and you (7 year old boy) but not your sister cause your mother is also a psychotic irresponsible bitch is no way to live. Having parents that can't hold a steady job and depend on others isn't good. I could go on and on. I've seen a lot. Most are my friends. Rock bottom? Some people don't care to dig themselves out because they think they can't. I don't ever want to settle for less than I am capable of. I guess that's why I work my ass off (I've got 3 jobs) and manage to go to college for financial security as well as peace of mind. I also keep my mind open. I will never consider myself done as far as learning goes.

I have also many non program friends that got their stuff together. My old best friend (from the "bad" days) took a good 7 years to finally buckle down on improving her life. She is one that comes from one of those f'd up families. She could easily blame a lot on her childhood. She did for a while. But now she's in medical school and happy. The happy part is the biggest accomplishment in my opinion. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-21 01:28 ]
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Offline Nihilanthic

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2005, 04:38:00 AM »
Perrigaud...

You and your own gumption is what made you into what you are now. The program does exactly the opposite of what youd want to do to make someone have a strong will and drive to do things. They break you down and make you dependant on others for direction.

Yes... having awful parents can do a lot to fuck up a child, but not all have to go down with the parents. My only point was GOOD parents always have good kids - at least as far as I've seen so far.

I doubt a program is going to make you dig yourself out. If it did, then you have it within yourself, anyway, to dig yourself out. It just makes people listen when told what to do.

What those kids who have bad parents need is good realtives or good foster care (though I hear horror stories of foster care too...) or someone like you to help them out.

Not a Gilcreaseian seminar or a stark program lifestyle.

Hell, one night, I had a really awful nightmare. I was back in school and some teacher was being a domineering fuck at the lunch table. I was finishing off my food when he DEMNADS we put our utensils and napkins on our plate, stand up, etc, and do as he says.

I play along and then get fed up due to hunger and try to take another bite. We banter back and forth, and then he says "you need a program childhood". I snapped and stood on the table and roared back down at him a number of threats and insults, and that my parents would never sign off on such a thing.

He says hed get acourt to get an order. So, I snap and decide to attack him. Right when I woke up I was throwing a front kick at his face and he blocked with a sharp edged thing he picked up (a tray I think) and I cut my foot and fell down, and I was about to either buttscoot (get on all fours and pull into your guard, a Brazilian Juujutsu term) towards him or try to get up and press my attack.

I found my conscious self in mid air with my blanket and sheet falling down over my outstretched leg. Ugh.

I havent even BEEN in a place like a program and I have nightmares about them!

He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.

--James Burgh 1774

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Perrigaud

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2005, 04:46:00 AM »
I wish there were something I could do for all the ones that came back hurt and even more fucked up than before. I know that not everyone has a strong mind such as myself to endure such a trying place. All I can do is hope for the best.

Niles,
 Can I pm you? I've got a situation that I know you will be brutally honest with me. And since I trust you'll be helpful or at least opinionated I'd like to bring it up to you. Is that ok?
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2005, 04:54:00 AM »
Certainly.

You can also AIM, YIM, or MSN me anytime.

I even have a cellphone but I dont want to run up the bill.

How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0451524934/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>George Orwell, 1984

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Perrigaud

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2005, 05:09:00 AM »
HMMM. Ok
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Offline Deborah

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #37 on: February 13, 2005, 12:48:00 AM »
Nihl,
There was a link in another forum to an account of writer who got involved in Vistar- an offshoot of Lifespring.

http://www.citypages.com/databank/22/10 ... le9923.asp
Excerpt:
In 1969 John Hanley, a 23-year-old college student, was fined $1,000 by the U.S. District Court in Des Moines, Iowa, and placed on five years probation. The social-science major had been selling franchises for toilet-cleaning routes that didn't exist. In 1974, Hanley invented a three-course "human potential" training series, and then founded a company called Lifespring to sell it. Over the next 15 years, nearly a half-million people took the courses at branches around the country, including one in Minneapolis. The company ultimately raked in some $15 million a year.

More than 30 lawsuits were filed against Lifespring, alleging that the training had caused everything from emotional damage to psychotic breakdowns to suicide. The first unfavorable jury verdict came in 1984, when Deborah Bingham, a 30-year-old blackjack dealer, was awarded $800,000. She said she'd been in a psych ward for a month after attending two Lifespring courses. In 1982, after David Priddle jumped off a building, his family accepted an undisclosed sum; so did Artie Barnett's family, when Barnett, who couldn't swim, drowned as fellow participants egged him on. And Gail Renick's family received $450,000 after she died from an asthma attack during a training session. She had been led to believe her medication was unnecessary. Gabriella Martinez testified that she heard her trainer's voice in her head the night she swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills. Lifespring settled the case out of court.

In 1980 ABC's 20/20 aired an investigation of Lifespring. It included an interview with cult expert Dr. John Clark of Harvard Medical School, who said the group practiced mind control and brainwashing. In 1987 Virginia Thomas, who is married to U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, told the Washington Post she had had to hide out of state to get away from Lifespring. In 1990 KARE-TV (Channel 11) ran a segment called "Mind Games?" that Lifespring claimed was deceptive and sensationalized. (The Minnesota News Council rejected the company's claim.)

While trainings continued until the mid-Nineties in certain parts of the country, the lawsuits and the bad press crippled the company. In Minneapolis many Lifespring grads were sad, angry, and determined that the work should continue. One of them, Sue Hawkes, founded Vistar in partnership with two California-based Lifespring trainers. She ran the company out of her home in Plymouth. It's a good guess that Hawkes's idea was to grow Vistar into a self-help empire like Lifespring, where people took the training seminars in groups numbering several hundred. It never happened. During my involvement, Level I enrollments hovered between 15 and 50 people. Despite ample free labor, the company couldn't have been very profitable. Unlike Hanley, who invented the seminars for profit, everyone running Vistar had been through the program and they believed in it. I sometimes wonder if that's why they failed.

Today, all of the phone numbers associated with Vistar have been disconnected. There are no new directory listings, no Web pages, no evidence that the organization is still active in Minneapolis.

It hardly matters. There are approximately 3,000 groups like Vistar operating in the U.S. today. Exit counseling has become a viable career, and mind control is an academic subgenre, complete with schools of thought, theories, and counter-theories. Most people who study cults conclude that groups like Vistar's, classified as LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings), are pathological, but they disagree about the extent of the damage. Are they cults? Cultlike? In the 15 years since the American Psychological Association released a report condemning LGATs in general, and Lifespring in particular, no one has brokered a clear consensus. This might have something to do with the fact that specificity can be dangerous; lawsuits are an occupational hazard.

Last year the Phoenix New Times reported that Landmark Education, a company that markets a class similar to Vistar's--known as the Forum--was distributing a letter from UC Berkeley's Dr. Margaret Singer stating that their approach does not warrant cult status. The company had sued the professor emeritus of psychology for mentioning Landmark in her book Cults in Our Midst. As part of the settlement, she agreed to write the letter and strike references to the group in later editions of the book. She declined further comment to the New Times reporter, saying, "The SOBs have already sued me once."

Landmark trains 125,000 people annually in 100 cities worldwide, including Minneapolis.
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gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700

Offline Nihilanthic

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2005, 02:57:00 AM »
*sigh* I really hate it when this shit spreads.

I stopped wanting to go to my speech therapist after her boss came in talking about the LGAT she and her daugther went through in the program her daughter went to for depression.... and then subsequently my therapist covered her boss's ass about it.

Trying to reinforce how (valid for most conversations and issues) there are two views, different people have different experiences (perrigaud?) with the same activity, blablabla. Basically cutting me off and shutting me up when I try to bring up the whole fact of if youre being manipulated or BRAINWASHED its hard to say their perception of it is not altered or tainted in some way.

Yeah, just the same as some people respond to rape differently. A rape fantasy being played out with a submissive vs some person off the street will have REAL different experiences wont they?

Some people will just accept what they're told because of who said it.

There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Anonymous

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2005, 05:22:00 PM »
There are "seminars" springing up all over the country discussing the movie "What the bleep do we know".  What most people do not seem to realize or seem to be naive about is who's behind this movie: http://www.rickross.com/reference/ramtha/ramtha14.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/ramtha/ramtha10.html

So, yes, here we go anew!
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Offline cherish wisdom

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #40 on: February 13, 2005, 08:50:00 PM »
I think these seminars are being promoted to the general public as well as program parents. A few years ago some friends of ours said they had gone to some psychological seminars in Utah - and that they had gained quite a bit from them. They then started inviting people over to their homes and tried to get them interested in these seminars. They essentially conducted one in their own home. I went to one and was really uncomfortable. We had to pair up with a stranger and share very privte "secrets" we had.
Does anyone know about this? I can't remember what they were called - but the price tag was high -$500 for a weekend.  I'm just wondering if this was associated in anyway with the WWASP programs.  If so they are finding yet another way to make money.  

For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.

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If you lack wisdom ask of God and it shall be given to you.\"

Offline Antigen

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Those damned seminars, again...
« Reply #41 on: February 13, 2005, 10:08:00 PM »
CW, WWASP is a relatively new organization. I think it was founded in `96 or so? It was based on the Provo Canyon or CEDU program, if memory serves. These, in turn, sprung from Synanon. But Chuck Dederich didn't really invent the method, though he was fond of taking credit.

The basic method is just the same as what was done to American POWs and disidents in Korea during that war. And it's essentially the same as the old time Bible revival preachers. You know the stories, right? They'd come to town to bring the message of the Lord and usually leave a few bastard children behind; taking a good chunk of the town's cash with them.

So I wouldn't assume that these seminars come from WWASP just because they're plying a similar scam. It's as old as the hills, actually. When I first described the program I went through to a friend who grew up in Haiti she said "Yeah, Zombi masters" and proceeded to explain how local "shamen" in her country go about making slaves of vulnerable people there.

All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2005, 07:22:00 AM »
WWASP's main influence is LifeSpring.  Bob Lichfield, WWASP's founder, and David Gilcrease, who runs Resource Realizations / Premier Educational, are both former LifeSpring trainers.  Look at the Resource Realizations web site and you will see several employees who used to work for LifeSpring.  Nevertheless, whoever runs the LGAT, it is only the details that change the overall process remains the same.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2005, 09:39:00 AM »
There is a lot of info about est/Lifespring in this lengthy thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... rt=0&Sort=

Starting around pg4:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=30&Sort=

Can also Search WWF for the term Lifespring.

This thread links to another message board re: the seminars.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 37&forum=9

People pay large sums of money (1500+) for these seminars. In addition to the original, there are many offshoots and bastardized versions out there.
Advertising is usually word of mouth and past participants are relied on to recruit friends and family.
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Offline cherish wisdom

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« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2005, 03:36:00 PM »
Hey thanks for the information. It was interesting - the seminars did cost upwards of $500 a weekend. Most were held in Utah.  Participants were encouraged to recruit people and what was really odd was that my friend was conducting the meeting.  We were asked to pare up with someone we didn't know and then share some intimate detail. It was very weird.  We were taught how to truly listen to someone else. The purpose of all of this was to improve our relationships.  My friends were really taken in by all of this.  I just thought it was really strange. I went to this recruitment meeting in 2000 or 2001.  

God is the Asylum of Ignorance.
--Baruch Spinoza, Dutch-Jewish philosopher

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
If you lack wisdom ask of God and it shall be given to you.\"