Those damned seminars, again...

[Anonymous]

On 2004-10-25 12:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
You can always leave -  Please don't make money the excuse."

Yes, you can leave, anyone can leave, but if you are in a program like I was you had to complete these seminars or trainings to move up to higher levels. You didn't have a choice.

We had two different individual trainings we had to go through. Two family trainings and at least one parent had to go through the parent challenge be able to do the family trainings.

There was a girl when I was there that they made go through the first training three times because she wouldn't hit a chair.

They are one of the most humiliating experiences I have ever gone through.

[plomly22]

[Perrigaud]

Relax Niles. I was kidding in a serious way.

[Nihilanthic]

Kidding seriously?

Sorry. You set me off :flame:

Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce

[Anonymous]

What Are Teen Seminars:  Found this site:

http://www.guidingteens.com/Seminars,-W ... inars.html - non WWASPS affiliates.

[Nihilanthic]

Wow thanks for posting a dead link and ignoring my post.

I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

[Perrigaud]

Niles,
 Sounds intense. Well the seminars are intense as well. Personally they helped me. Not every single process but a lot of 'em. It wasn't all about crying and feeling the pain for me. For me it was about releasing all the inner thoughts and feelings I never let out. Because I kept them in for so long they consumed me. They tore at me unitl one day I thought that the only way to get rid of them was to beat 'em out whether it was myself or others.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-01-18 00:50:00, Perrigaud wrote:

"Niles,

 Sounds intense. Well the seminars are intense as well. Personally they helped me. Not every single process but a lot of 'em. It wasn't all about crying and feeling the pain for me. For me it was about releasing all the inner thoughts and feelings I never let out. Because I kept them in for so long they consumed me. They tore at me unitl one day I thought that the only way to get rid of them was to beat 'em out whether it was myself or others. "

You were lucky.  When I was in college, one of my professors who was professor emeritus and former head of the psych department had *very* unkind things to say about the damage done to many individuals by the "sensitivity training" fad that stirred up a lot of emotions and memories in participants with unqualified training leaders who didn't know how to *properly* resolve what they stirred up.

That's what WWASPS and the other Programs reminds me of.  I see the Programs as another psychotherapy cult/fad run largely by unqualified people who, as a result of not really knowing what they're doing, screw a lot of people's heads up in a big way.

I'm glad you're doing okay.

But the problem here is, you were *lucky*.  I mean, I'm glad for you that you were one of the lucky ones.  I just want the industry reformed and improved so there aren't as many psychiatric casualties of the process.

By "psychiatric casualties" I mean suicides (during or after), people who come out with PTSD, and inappropriate placements.

Some places are better than others.  Some places are better some years than others.  Sometimes some kids are lucky enough to get staff that are actually competent through training or naturally talented enough to muddle through.

But systematic reforms, particularly ones that prevent inappropriate placements in the first place and ensure minimum professional standards for training and qualifications of the various employees, could substantially reduce the number of casualties coming out of these places.

I'm glad you were lucky.

I want reforms to protect the ones who aren't lucky now, and the ones next week and next year who won't be lucky like you were.

Timoclea

[Nihilanthic]

T is right... but regressional seminars are not a golden hammer.

You, apparently, were a nail. Lots of people arent.

I saw it screw up two of my friends and the concept of it is attacking someone until they flip out. Only in specific situations, would it be useful. And, only with people who could handle it AND benefit from it.

You managed to handle it and claim you benefitted. Thats very well. But, there is no prescreeining at all to see if it would 1. not hurt 2. help people.

Supposedly, now you have to sign a waiver saying nothing is wrong with you and you are not on drugs, before you enter such a seminar. That speaks for itself.

Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?  
--Economist Milton Friedman

[Perrigaud]

Luck has nothing to do with it. My family knew very well that this was something that would help me and that I wouldn't come out a damaged soul. Luck? No, it's about using your mind and will. I didn't agree with some of the things that went on throughout my  program experience. I also knew what I was up for when I came home. I knew I needed to be a strong minded person and fight for my life. When I say this ("fight for my life") I mean that I was not willing to be dependent on the program and realize that I was completely helpless when I came out.

I have always agreed that this form of therapy is not for everyone. It's for the individuals who are strong minded and need help with what they don't want to ask help for. I aggree screenings should be held as well as a thorough monitering of these places.

It saddens me to know that although the program helped me that it has harmed many. It sucks that it is corrupted. Again, I'll use the comparison of religion. Religion has helped many but has also destroyed many. Some people use it as a weapon against others which totally nullifies it's true purity.

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud, basically you're admitting this is a stark, rough, 'tough' *as if thats a good thing* program that only works on extremely strong willed and strongly constituted humans, but messes up other people, if not outright brainwasing them.

Thats NOT a good thing! You DONT need pain or suffering to help people. Even you! You dont need torture of any sort to get through to people. The only way that this regime of treatment would be acceptable to me, would be if it pre-screened people, and it only took in people like you.

Even still, making a program out of being tough and hard as if those are good or desireable traits in and of themself is ridiculous. The leaders of the programs are upfront about breaking down and reprogramming people. - Something that did not happen to you. -

Something that 'helped' you only because you're very, very strong inside, but hurts others, is ridiculous. I'm very sure legit treatment based on something other than suffering and breaking children down would have worked on you.

Also... I have trouble believing your familly REALLY knew anything about what was going on. They might have been TOLD it would help you. But they probably knew LESS in the way of details than the regulars here!

for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.

--Thomas Jefferson

[Perrigaud]

Niles,
  Yep you're right on the message I am conveying. It's not for everyone. They can and have messed up some minds. I wish there was screening.
My family took a gamble. As far as knowing, well they know how strong my will is and knew that I'd be able to work through it. They didn't know everything all the time.

[Nihilanthic]

Well, perrigaud, sitting here today talking to me IN SPITE of the treatment really says a lot.

I'm pretty sure somone like you was having usual teenage 'problems' growing up and would have fixed it just like a cold, program or not.

Frankly I'm unconvinced of the efficacy of the seminars are all. They only HELP people with a very strong mind and well, and hurt others. Do they help more than other methods of treatment that arent mental S&M? I doubt it.

If they did, then they'd only be useful on strong willed knotheads like yourself :razz:

But, thats just a possible scenario. Frankly, I doubt thats the case, and even if it were, its either useless or harmful to the rest of humanity and is WAY, WAY, WAY overused by these programs.

These programs are central to the programs Perrigaud. Without them, you'd just be put in a stark, pleasureless environment for a few years forced to be extremely obedient and self-denying.  Then it would all boil down to do as we say to get out treatment, which does nothing but teach them how to be manipulative to leave - or break them.

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"

[Perrigaud]

Seminars. Very taboo. Again, they were made extreme for the emotionally shut hard asses such as myself. I knew I was going down fast and hard. I knew it even before the program. I could feel myself slip. Would I have gotten out of it? I don't know for sure but I'm willing to bet no.

[Nihilanthic]

Perrigaud - they werent custom tailored for you or anyone else, It was made by Davild Gilcrease as some sort of psychological equivilant of an overhaul.

Even if you are 'emotionally shut' getting raped psycholgoically before a group is neither ethical or necessary! There are plenty of other ways that more than likely work a lot better.

And I think you would have gotten out. One thing you must remember is part of the program is accepting that without it you would be 'deadinsaneorinjail' - that you are wrong and the only way to be fixed is through the program.

They wouldn't have let you out unless you at least put on a show of that, unless you were 18.

Madness takes its toll.  Please have exact change.
--Anonymous