Author Topic: The ring  (Read 32923 times)

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Offline Becca

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The ring
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2003, 01:31:00 PM »
The ring ended in the fall of 2000.  I was a resident at elan 8 at the time, I was one of the last people to go in the ring.  Although many of you disagree I fell it was probably one of the more productive things at Elan.  I personally learned that there are real consequences for my actions.  I know this may not be the popular opinion aroud here, but I think the students of Elan would be better off if it was still in concept.
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Offline Antigen

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The ring
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2003, 03:14:00 PM »
Becca, serious question.

In Straight, we didn't have the ring exactly like they had at Elan. But we had very similar practices. We had what, in later days, was euphemistically termed 'restraint'. In my day (`80 - `82) they just called it getting sat on, which is essentially what happened. They (well, we who didn't want to go a round on the floor ourselves) told parents and anyone else that the only reason anyone ever got sat on was to restrain them from assaulting others or hurting themselves. (carving was a popular passtime in group at Straight)

The truth, though, was that you could get sat on for refusing to "get honest" (renounce yourself, confess to an accusation... whatever) or for making a run for the door.

Most of the assaults for which people got restrained started out with the allegedly dangerous and violent subject being pushed, hit, prodded and physically made to do things like sit ups or that bizarre ritual that we called 'motivating' (flapping your whole upper body as hard as you could to show how gosh darned motivated you were to get called on to speak) If a defiant newcomer (shot down) refused to do these things, the kids nearest them would grab hold of their arms and legs and simply put the other kid's body through the motions.

Once you were down on the floor with 4 or 5 other kids sitting on your limbs and stomach, very often that was there chance to take out a little pent up agression on you. Sometimes they'd have fun covering the sittee's (yeah, that's really what we called them) mouth and nose till they panicked, which, of course, would draw a response to justify a few good punches or the (usually heavy set) girl on your stomach to bounce a few times.

None the less, the stock response to people who expressed through word or deed that they did not like being sat on was this, "You did the necessary things to get sat on!"

I never saw it this way at all. These were artificial consequences used to control behaviors that, in the real world, would certainly not have drawn anything close to these contrived consequences.

Never the less, by the time I got out after two years, my confused little concience wouldn't allow me to testify against the people who'd held me down and beat on my like that for two hours for calmly refusing to apologize to Group for having run away. "Get honest!" was the angry demand. But, honestly, I wasn't sorry. I was being honest by the traditional definition. And yet I also knew what would happen if I continued to refuse. So, in Program (Concept) sense, it was my fault, right?  

Took me longer than the statute of limitations to sort that one out.

Do you really think going in the ring was a natural, fair and even handed consequence for the kinds of actions for which Elan used it? I'm not going for a 'gotchya' here. I just want to compare notes.


Quote
On 2003-10-31 10:31:00, Becca wrote:

"The ring ended in the fall of 2000.  I was a resident at elan 8 at the time, I was one of the last people to go in the ring.  Although many of you disagree I fell it was probably one of the more productive things at Elan.  I personally learned that there are real consequences for my actions.  I know this may not be the popular opinion aroud here, but I think the students of Elan would be better off if it was still in concept."

Speak gently! 't is a little thing Dropp'd in the heart's deep well; The good, the joy, that it may bring Eternity shall tell.
-- G. W. Langford: Speak gently.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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Offline Paul St. John

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The ring
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2003, 04:28:00 PM »
Quote
On 2003-10-31 10:31:00, Becca wrote:

"The ring ended in the fall of 2000.  I was a resident at elan 8 at the time, I was one of the last people to go in the ring.  Although many of you disagree I fell it was probably one of the more productive things at Elan.  I personally learned that there are real consequences for my actions.  I know this may not be the popular opinion aroud here, but I think the students of Elan would be better off if it was still in concept."


Becca,
     You are probably not gonna hear what I am saying, but there already are real consequences for your your actions.  That is the fact of the matter.  What we have here is people getting the way of the natural cause and effect relationship of the world.  I am sure that you think that you have learned something.  You probably think that you have learned discipline, but that is false.  Discipline is an inner matter.  iT's source is the self.  Disciplne comes from going for what we want.. not avoiding what we do not want.

    Back in the day, Gypsies, use to put children into weird shaped vases and such, and let them grow within these shapes, throughout their life, so that when thye came out, they looked the way, that the people who had put them into them wished.  The use of the ring and other fear tactics, is the same thing..  It is molding a person.. It goes on the idea, that a person is no good as they are, and must be beaten or brought to submission by another.

   Also, as far as it being productive, recieving harm to one's being is the most counter-productive thing in the universe.  Productivity is measured by the amount of benefit or health brought to the individual.  We have no other reference point.. we need no other reference point, but the conscious individual.  Beating the "image" out of a person is extremely counter-productive, and nobody wins.


You may not like what I have written, but it happens to be true.


Paul St. JOhn
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Offline Becca

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The ring
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2003, 05:12:00 PM »
I have heard the ring was different back when Elan was newer, but when I was there it was very only for very extreme cases.  A student would generally get more warnings than could be counted.  They would have to have shown extreme physical violence and not responded at all to the warnings.
The ring was litterally a boxing ring.  Students would be fully padded in the same height/weight class and have to follow boxing guidelines.  
Unless the student receiving the ring refused to commit to stop their violent behavior the ring would never last more than 3 minutes.  Mine lasted 28 seconds.
I hope this clears it up for you.
Becca
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Offline Antigen

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The ring
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2003, 10:00:00 PM »
Becca, I believe folks who say Elan has changed a lot since the bad old days. Not only are there a whole lot of people who saw it then and now, there are even a few who were around for various transitions. That's a good thing! I know pretty much what it was like for my brothers and sisters in The Seed and I wouldn't wish Straight on them.

A lot of the other programs have changed significantly as well, most of them for the better. I think most of the worst ones that let things get way, way out of hand pretty much fall apart because of it. Only some few with very skillfully manipulaive leaders seem to be able to hide the more outrageous practices for long. Miller Newton, for example. Took from the mid `70's till just the last 3 years or so to shut him down.

But I'm not convinced that everything has changed or that they're not still using some very potent and dangerous slight of mind. Some things about Elan concern me very much. A few people who I find very credible tell consistent stories about Marty and Joe. They're not talking just about the ring and making people think they were going to die or the rapes, but that these boys enjoyed this type of thing very much. And I know a few people personally who never were physically harmed, but who were deeply hurt psychologically by the mind games.

I'm glad they reeled in the more outrageous uses of the ring. If it was just as you perceived it when you were there, it actuallys sounds like a perfectly sensible and safe practice.

But you didn't address my primary concern in your response. Like I said, the only time I ever got the end-all physical punishment was when I refused to say what I was told to say. And I'd seen plenty of people just tormented till they lost their temper, as any reasonable person might do under similar circumstances, and then get the treatment for it.

What types of infractions would get someone put in the ring to begin with?

Every act of a delegated authority, contrary to the tenor of the commission under which it is exercised, is void. No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid. To deny this, would be to affirm, that the deputy is greater than his principal; that the servant is above his master; that the representatives of the people are superior to the people themselves; that men acting by virtue of powers, may do not only what their powers do not authorize, but what they forbid."
--Alexander Hamilton    

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Offline Paul St. John

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The ring
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2003, 09:56:00 PM »
Thanks, Art.
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Offline SyN

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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2003, 01:13:00 AM »
I think the ring was good for one reason only.  You could back your words up in the ring.  I have no problem with the ring because of all those trash talkin violent kids that were there in my time.  It gave them a chance to show that either they were or weren't badasses like they talked.  I allways root for the bad guy and i saw many good rounds in my stay. 16 oz gloves and mouth n head gear, i dont know how many of you box but its pretty much a pillow fight. Yes physical violence is bad in most cases but you also need to back up your words in life, and sometimes that will lead to gettin down n dirty.
I allways wanted the "bad" kid to win, show everyone whats up, and i think the ring was the start of the riot that took place, and hey what the fuk ever the school learned what the kids were all about.  For those of you that werent in elan you gotta understand that it was a cyclone of crazyness with or without the ring.  And most of us wanted to see pure anarchy when we were there, it was the only way i could still feel human, and unprogrammed.
thats only my oppinion so dont jump down my fukn throat about it.
SyN
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2003, 03:02:00 AM »
win,,,lol. way back when dinosours ruled the earth, it was never a question of winning. if you were put in against the house,, they kept  goin,, and goin, and going.usually till you couldnt even hold you arms up,, the best u could hope was the crouch and cover,,and they tire themselves  and then maybe get a good shot in..
but then u went another round,,,pillow fight? if by that u mean put a 1 pound weight in a pillow,, wind up and clocked some one in the side,, ok,and as far as the women went,,  our house didnt have a chest protector,,but that didnt stop staff from putting them in anyway. if there was nobody bigger in the house,, they would import   3 or 4 from other houses.. the only way  a guy i saw "win" was  to punch  jim lehman in the nose before he got the gloves on him..  this being the legendary nose he got broke in prison  as he would tell us constantly.. my, my, how he paid ,,but what a hoot :silly:
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Offline Nazi

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The ring
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2003, 06:55:00 AM »
Ken Z always wore a chest protector when he fought in the ring.Ken use to drip hot candle wax on his nipple's in the dorm so his chest was always sore, elan got him a chest protector so he wouldn't get injured.
It is also to be said that Ken would masterbate before going into the ring this way he didnt have a loaded gun on him and wouldn't come on to the victum he was boxing.one time Ken forgot to masterbate before going into the ring and made several passes at the victum before grabbing his balls and sucking on them.
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lan is slowly being torn apart, thanks to me and all the other former Elanites out there that beleive in the destruction of tearing Elan apart. \"Keep up the great work\"

Offline Dee Verry

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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2003, 10:38:00 AM »
I felt humiliated in the ring. I't wasn't scared I felt. I felted dogged! Yeah that's the feeling! I went in for reacting to comment's made about my dad,eye or body movement's got you put in the ring and I remember the house loved it.Back then You didn't have to be violent to go in.Hey I would be angry after being held down over two chairs and have my ass out there for a free for all, yeah I think I was feeling very angry. I wasn't going to stand at attention after that abuse.Over the chairs I would go again. Marty you must have got off watching that bondage and the helplessness of all. The Ring was an act of violence pure and simple!or maybe something more.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2003, 10:57:00 AM »
This is all so interesting (except of course the few who respond with childish statements).

The thing that interests me the most is the connection that the ring has with the seed. I am the moderator of the Seed discussion forum and was in the Seed St. Pete in 1973.

Some of you may know that the Seed was founded in 1970 as a juvenile drug abuse center in Florida, far away from Elan. However, The Seed used many similar techniques and thought reform tactics as Elan did.

Here is the clincher. The seed opened a branch in Ohio that Used the ring. The other branches did not to my knowledge. A friend who experienced the ring in the seed described it as terrifying and said art barker really got off on it.

So, my question is this, and I don't think the answer is here.  There is obviously a thread tying all these programs together.  What was it and why did Art Barker all of a sudden start using "the ring" in 1973? I don't think these places spontaneously thought this brutal shit up on their own....

There is not a "fragment" in all nature, for every relative fragment of one thing is a full harmonious unit in itself.
-- John Muir

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2003, 05:13:00 PM »
hmm ,, i always thought was a tree,, synanon begat daytop and the seed,, elan sprong from daytop and straight sprung from the seed,,ya kno,, teach a man to control his mind and you save his life,, teach a man how to  control other minds and he goes off and starts his own theraputic community. im positive you can follow the trail to the recent place in the news ,, in south america,, that got closed for abuse
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2003, 05:26:00 PM »
unfortunately you can't. Art barker has disavowed any connection to the synanon. I have been trying unsucessfully to link him....

There are just two many similarities between these programs...including the topic of this thread  "the ring".



We need cops.

We can't live without 'em.

But they need to start working for us....

That's no longer an option.

They've pushed it.

They've gone to far.

They've just gone to far.
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Offline Matt C. Hoffman

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The ring
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2003, 01:40:00 PM »
you all had the ring in other programs ?

which other programs used the ring ?

Did any one die in the ring like what happened to Phil, in those other programs .

Blows my mind a weakened blood vessels in the brain (anuerysm) can be made to rupture from a blow to to the head .

It seems that a person experiencing an anuerysm also experiences serious headaches . In my opinion it seems that elan thought that instead of giving medical assistance ,it instead thought it could beat those headaches right out of Phils
head .

Maybe some one should "ask a nurse "if this is the prefered method of treatment for headaches . Or if ther is another more accepted and humane form of treatment ? Like going to see a doctor .

Just wordering and also wondering if this is how your kid could be treated ,why as a parent would you subject them to this kinda lunacy . Ah my bad it was the state o Maine that was Phils  guardians .

Maybe some one should ask the medical association of the state of
maine if this is the prefered and optimum treatment plan for kids with severe headaches .

I must say it does go against any thing I was taught (in college in my anatomy and physiology class) maybe it was something taught on a day  tha I missed. I did get a B in that class though!

Matt
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Offline Anonymous

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The ring
« Reply #44 on: December 10, 2003, 11:09:00 PM »
I have never been in a ring, but I have seen plenty. I was there in 1996 to 1999, so the ring was not used unless people were violent, and when the staff didn't like a student, they would invoke that destruction of Elan property would call for a ring. There was one case: one kid spit on walls. he weighed about 140 lbs, and was put in with a guy who weighed about 200, who broke his nose. They even violated their own rules, and many students were appalled. I think this incident turned a lot of students against the program.
Many of the other students were less sympathetic cases
There was a young Jewish boy from Canada (his parents are rich, so I don't want to get sued) who was always in the corner, Coz was on his SP, he's the kid who jerked off on people. The strength in his ring obviously enjoyed themselves, because they were on his SP a lot. There were some violent female corner people, but I was not allowed to be on their SPs because the staff thought I was too short-tempered. One time I almost beat up Jenn Ferro, but someone came between us before any punches were thrown.
I avoided violence there only to stay out of the ring, but that doesn't mean that I would avoid violence with the people I have in mind out in the real world, fortunately for them, they do not live in New England. I found out that my parents were lied to about the ring; at least my father was. I think my mother would have signed for a ring if it was necessary, Elan mainly dealt with her because they had brainwashed her more successfully than most of the students. She was commenting to him about all the Jaguars that the staff had, and she didn't see a problem with it, but he did. That was about the time that he wanted me out, but the staff had brainwashed my mother into thinking that he was insane, so I stayed there longer, about a year and a half longer. Elan would have encouraged my mother to divorce my father if it would have helped them keep me there longer, there is nothing they won't do for more money.
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