Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > The Seed Discussion Forum
Seed Psychology
Anonymous:
okay, you go ahead and believe that god creates people and then throws them in a lake of fire for all of eternity because he gave them free will to choose him, yet he knows in advance they won't, yet they still can choose this if they want, yet he knew before they were born they wouldn't, yet they can choose them if they will only believe, yet it was known before they were born they wouldn't and therefore predetermined, that god hates sin yet is the creator of all, including sin. That a band of other gods that we call angels pulled a coup in heaven and left the place and will one day be beaten down by the forces of heaven, That god placed the "pillars of the earth" up, that a race of magical giants once upon a time roamed the earth because the angels had sex with women, that god sent bears to kill children who dared to taunt one of his prophets because he was bald. That during revelation an angel will be placed in the four corners of the world, Ad nausem rediculous impossible logic and magical stories all contained within the bible, which is proclaimed by the believers as "scientifically and historically accurate".
As we slowly descend down the spiral of absurdity, people realize that their beliefs aren't compatible with current knowledge. Oh sure, they fight it, just as people were killed by the early church for believing the earth was flat or that the earth really wasn't the center of the universe, or for example why during the reformation when people questioned the interpretation of the bible they were killed, and why currently the christians are inventing competing "science" and waging a war against scientific knowledge to squelch the voice of those who know the earth isn't 6000 years old. In spite of these efforts by believers in the supernatural, eventually knowledge replaces belief and the old gods die out and new beliefs more compatable with known knowledge replace them.
This is why the god myths of old went by the wayside and why the current gods will one day go into mythological storybooks as well.
cleveland:
I'm not so sure that we will progress from fairy tales to rationality. It seems that we have left the Enlightnment and the Age of Reason behind and are returning to magic, mystery and irrationality. People believe in angels, fate, creationism and destiny and other forms of 'magical thinking'...
We on the left do this just as much as those on the right, but we beat drums and call ourselves pagans while they go to mega churches and call themselves 'born again.' We just have different stories we tell ourselves but it is equally dangerous is my conclusion to abandon reason for this stuff, fun as it may be.[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-11-01 08:54 ]
GregFL:
you beat drums and call yourself a Pagan?
I think if you look at the world 2000 years ago and then now, we have made tremendous progress towards reason. However, individuals will always duck into religion because it explains the unexplainable, our mortality and death. It in essence gives you a free ticket to immortality, at least in your mind.
As far as the christians being right wing, it is only because that is currently where they are getting their political support.
AtomicAnt:
--- Quote ---On 2005-11-01 07:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
This is why the god myths of old went by the wayside and why the current gods will one day go into mythological storybooks as well."
--- End quote ---
I love these discussions, so I can't help butting in.
I doubt religion will go away anytime soon. Too many people believe in them and they cannot be swayed.
Meantime, science, in a sense, is also a faith. It depends on some unproven hypotheses. For example; The world exists in a state of order and humans can understand at least part of that order.
Another is Occam's Razor. When Copernicus came up with his view of the solar system, his new system was less accurate than the old Ptolmeic system. This was because he used circular, not elliptical, orbits. When asked how he knew he was right with a less accurate system, his response was, "Because God would create the Universe in the simplest, most harmonic, manner."
Then, of course, there is always Max Stirner who pointed out that once God is removed, any higher values one holds above oneself become arbitrary. The concept of 'legitimate authority' cannot stand. Even Democracy tumbles; "A slave to the majority is still a slave."
Jefferson justified (and legitimized) the Revolutionary war by proclaiming that God gave Men 'unalienable rights.' Not even the King can take these away. Thus the foundation of the United States as a legitimate country rests on a religious assertion.
Those that believe in God are not necessarily idiots. In Europe, for instance, there is no raging debate between evolution and creationism. They seem to be able to see it both ways without an issue. I once had a philosophy professor who stated that science and faith had nothing to do with each other. He also stated that when Christianity became an institution, it ceased to be a religion. I never figured out what that meant. All I know is that the guy was a biblical scholar and a leading phenomenologist. He held degrees in physics as well.
GregFL:
Science is not faith, no matter what the religious propaganda machine would have you believe.
there are simple but fundamental differences between faith and science that makes the two incompatible.
Faith starts with a conclusion and rejects all new information that tends to disprove it. It relies on dogma and belief.
Science never deals in absolutes (which is why all science if framed in theories)but instead relies on emperical data and evidence, is subject to peer review and accepts change with new information. As such science is self-refuting.
Thus, "creation science" is a misnomer, the draq queen of science, faith all dressed up as science.
creation science, intelligent design, christian science...all of them belong in theology or philosophy class, not science class.
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