For the Guys on Moose Talk

[shanlea]

Hello Guys, As you are aware, we all share similar perspectives on CEDU. For awhile, I was  unbelievably pissed off about Ottawa's total lack of concern (not to mention condescending attitude)toward our first-hand experiences.  

But I still don't understand this most rank vulgarity and abuse directed at them.  It still seems to me that if you decry the abuses of CEDU, then you shouldn't emulate it. Be angry and tackle it on rationale; please don't bring perverse sexual and violent acts into it.

Also O2 is just a kid and shouldn't be subjected to this. With all the presumptuous BS we put up with at CEDU where they rewrote our history and issues to their script, we shouldn't possibly make presumptions about the Ottawas except on the basis of their attitude directed toward us and their argument for CEDU.

All they know is that they had a messed up kid who made a "miraculous" recovery at CEDU.  To them, the proof is in the pudding.  

That is why I asked if it matters HOW the end was procured, and what specific facts they can posit on behalf of CEDU's methodology, and as you can see, they came up with nada so far. (Which I figured.)

Also, for other parents, it may be helpful to understand the long term effects CEDU had on you. I know OD already wrote of it and directly credits CEDU for it. I know SOS and Bryan both said they have very successful lives after going through some tumultuous times.  (Which to me proves they didn't need the "school" to begin with.) But still, parents researching these schools should be aware of the long term effects.  (Or how someone can be seemingly successful when they graduate but still be traumatized.)

But if we talk about moose cocks and call people ugly losers, and make assinine assumptions, then we deflect from the purpose. Do we really want this site to turn into the Elan board which is all puerile invective that doesn't have anything to do with Elan?

I'm coming from a sincere place. Please don't treat me to an extra special double delight of a rap session.

[Antigen]

A few years ago, I got together w/ some friends and picketted a Program location on open meeting night. The leader put on a pretty good show by standing stockily in front of the door, arms folded, face straight forward while we shouted various things about child abuse along with encouragement to the kids inside that we were working on getting them out.

My friend, Kim, took the bullhorn and shouted "Loretta! You're closing off! What are you hiding?!" Loretta snapped her arms down to her sides before she could help herself. (in Straight, we were not allowed to cross our arms or legs, as that's body language for not being receptive) It was frelling hysterical!

Sometimes it's tough to resist giving someone a dose of their own medicine. But I agree, this stuff is hard to watch sometimes. What if O2 really is a kid? Would you talk like that to a kid irl?

Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
http://www.ncpoliticalreview.com/1101/Ervin/cohen.htm' target='_new'>Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution

[Ottawa2]

Shanlea: Thank you for trying to stop some the insain rabbleings (sp?) on this site. Trust me my mother will get back to you, but she want to make sure to give you as much detail as possible. She dose not want to leave anything out so it might take some time. Plus her school work and life out side of this site take up quite a lot of her time.

And yes I am just a kid (well technilly Im an Adult now) but trust me some radom guys on a obscure web site are not enough to upset me. (if anything it make me laugh)
 :wave:

[blownawaytheidahoway]

f it

[Ottawa2]

Thank you Blownaway! :wave: [ This Message was edited by: Ottawa2 on 2004-09-02 18:04 ]

[Son Of Serbia]

O2, Right now your mother is scrambling to find answers that she doesn't have.  She's stalling because she has no fucking clue at this point, how to answer Shanlea's specific questions about the program.

  And yes O2, I truly believe that you are a young, naive, BRAIN DEAD, little girl with no life.  :wave:  

.

[Anonymous]

Dear Prince Serb, read Antigen's post on the Chuck thread---it explains exactly why we should be more civilly disobedient when it comes to the naysayers.

As for O2, she's a kid who did not go through the program and saw her outlaw brother come out smelling like roses. I went through the program and I still resisted viewing CEDU as the unethical, abusive cult that it is.  How could I be smart enough to hightail it outta there and still in denial I'll never know. But brain dead is a harsh description for O2, though entirely apt for some of the staff and students after their brainwashing.  

I will say it would be fun if her brother showed up on this forum because we know that he knows that we know that he knows what the program was all about even if he chooses to think of it positively. After all, he is not deadinsaneondrugsorinjail.........yet.  Hopefully never.  

And who knows? For the life of me I can't figure out why some people insisted that it saved them but maybe they never descended to the same space they were in before CEDU after graduating.  Maybe to them, the ends did justify the means.

[Antigen]

Or maybe http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... miamithem' target='_new'>H. G. Wells

[Oppositional Defiance]

Yup... if ottowa's son ever actually saw this website he would probably experience some of the catharsis that I and most all others felt when they were finally allowed to grieve for what was done to them. I don't think Ottowa wants her son even to look at this site, and if her son actually does, he's probably dealing with some mixed up emotional bullshit right now... there's going to be pandemonium in the Ottowa family, I said it first, I said it right here. Karma is not about a cosmic punishment/reward system. That's a westernized caricature of the real thing. Essentially, karma is the life which grows out of your past. Bad seed, bad karma, stormy weather ahead. That's your free psychic reading by a High Magician who's as real as they come, when he's not preoccupied raving like a madman.

[Antigen]

On 2004-09-03 15:47:00, Oppositional Defiance wrote:

That's a westernized caricature of the real thing. Essentially, karma is the life which grows out of your past. Bad seed, bad karma, stormy weather ahead. That's your free psychic reading by a High Magician who's as real as they come, when he's not preoccupied raving like a madman.

LOL! Yeah, I think it's undeniable. We reap what we sow, or someone else does and then they get even.

I don't know these people, except by way of this forum. And I just don't like to meddle. Both O5 and O2 have chosen to come join this discussion. The son/brother has not.

Now let me show you a little of how dark my heart is and how dark it's not. If things had gone along in Straight, Inc. the way I'd come to expect, my plan was to go along, maybe having to do a stint as staff trainee (it was an offer you couldn't refuse) and then, either upon graduation or coming of age, to book and never darken the doorway again. It was a good plan, I think. It's essentially what all my older brothers and sister had done and it seemed to work out more or less OK for them. I only split because things got more bizarre, beyond the pale. I could no longer believe that we'd all get out one way or another and just shake it off. It became obvious that we were doing permanent harm to some kids and I could neither fight it nor be a part of it.

But if that hadn't happened? I probably would have taken the "free" ride through college (out of town college... waaaaayyyy out of town!) and who knows what might have happened next?

As it was, the best advice I ever got was to just not think about it so much, move on and get my bearing, maybe tackle it later.

Point is, it was a difficult and fragile issue w/ me w/ my tenuous grasp on sanity swinging and twisting in the balance. I wouldn't try to make that decision for someone else. If the dude has no interest in these forums, then he has no interest. He's welcome, of course. But ... no more pressure.

The greater the ignorance the greater the dogmatism.


--William Osler

[blownawaytheidahoway]

Horse shit. If his experience is going to be used to deny my rightful need to show that in my case the experience that caused his supposedly "positive" metamorphasis indeed halted my natural growth; and this ammunition will be used to deny the claims of many here that no matter what the ends DO NOT justify the means, then I do not agree not to pressure him. Silence = Death.
     And as to any claim that because I post here that I feel insecure, that I FEEL incomplete or scared and furthermore- under the general conversation heading of being under the influence of things that were both negative to my future life and detramental to my adolesense, being against my will, that I somehow needed the "program" more- to be honest (and I wouldn't have it any other way since it's my "truth" word) I would rather resent that...
     To be sure, let me clarify: Shanlea, I take it to mean that you posted that because I post here what kind of things I am NOW finally noticing in my life that I am lacking...that bit of confidence that truly allows me to be self reliant or any number of the things that 450 abusive raps slammed into my head (that's NOT including all the profeets, workshops, all day random raps, or knowledge workshop or counselor conferences that I took part in) that I somehow needed the program in a way that others did not. And I am not picking at you, but you sided with Ottowa (and I don't mean sided in a way to create division in ALL of our common ranks) on this point too. And I just want to draw attention to something that I think may have slipped your mind: You also did not go through what I went through. You did not complete the brainwashing workshops and do the amount of raps that I did so...Please know that I am revisiting something that I did not know was effecting me the way it was...It ALL came tumbling down. And yeah, I went to college, I've had a little money once, and I even thought the world wasn't such a shitty place (for an admittedly short amount of time) for a while. But now I know what is wrong with why I don't have a happy life YET. YET, Jah, I pray, and that reason is  a lack of control over my past. CEDU. Nothing else except the issues that THAT therein contain. so...this is the first time I have ever addressed you, and I have no idea what or who you are (except I remember, a young mother (like Kahil talks of in the one on beauty) and someone interested in changing the system with regards to troubled youth) but I want you to know how very much I disagree with the contention that the program, as it was FOR ME, could be good for anyone.
Now I think I am turning into a ranting Psycho. Sorry. I had a great quote in my brain but...it's gone. ohhhh yeahhhh:

"The friend of my enemy is my enemy". Sun Tzu
Disclaimer: Shanlea is NOT my enemy.

as usual, I am
-blownaway

[blownawaytheidahoway]

I just re read the post...it was a glitch on my part. Sorry. But I guess It says what you were telling other parents so I'll let it stay as long as you promise to forget the tone from which it came at ya. I just have gotten less and less blocked in the messages to my hands posting here, it was inevitable that I would misread something...typical of me. I wonder why...

[Anonymous]

Hey Idaho, I have posted a lot on the abuses of CEDU.  My earlier posts, unfortunately, were anon as I was a bit paranoid, but I wanted a list of reasons for other parents to refer back to so they could think twice.  

Also, I ended up getting quite pissy w/O5 as I felt --and still feel--she totally denied our experiences or treated them as isolated.  

The only reason I came to the Os defense at all is because I sincerely believe that our more abusive posts are as bad or worse than some of the raps I've been in (except she has free will to leave.)  I want us to be angry and passionate but I also want us to be heard. That is why I really wanted to make sure we address either her attitude or her logic but not who sucks moose cock etc.  I WANT US TO BE HEARD.

I also am trying to make sense of an experience I will never ever forget and loathed. For years, I have had fantasies of what I would say to these staff members if I ever ran across them.  Everyone here at this forum has vindicated what I always thought was an abusive, bizarre system, but never had anyone to talk to about it until now. And there is a strange isolation in that; I will never totally relate to my friends who have never experienced it in the same way people who went through the program and graduated will never totally relate to me.

Also, I want to understand why people are proponents of this program. I realized that Ottawa and another pro-CEDU chick of yahoo never gave specific reasons why it works. They just believe it does.  She grilled us for what we did not like about the program and I returned the ball.

Part of who I am as a person is just someone who tries to understand all sides. If I were just an anti-CEDU clone, I might just tell every CEDU ite to go suck moose balls.  

But I will never ever ever endorse CEDU because I think it is abusive therapy, bullshit therapy, unethical with students and families, singularly unqualified in most endeavors, and cultists. I really believe that.

I am also a mother of two small children who is doing it alone and I am terrified of any misstep I make as a parent and how it may affect them later.  I have a burning need to understand things and not push it under the carpet.  

I'm not a hater. To me, there is nothing worse than being consumed by bitterness. I've been there and it hurts me a hell of a lot worse than the object of it. And even though I may be dismissed as some stupid Pollyanna (who has nothing to do with moose cocks), there is more of me that relates to Bryan, Son of Serbia, or Idaho than you would imagine.

Six months of CEDU has affected me for half my life--I couldn't imagine what another 2 years would do.

[shanlea]

That was me who just posted by the way.

[blownawaytheidahoway]

Word.
     I am happy that you didn't have to stay another two years...it ruined my life.
     I'm picking away at it now, though.