Hello

[Dantari]

Hello I saw this link and just thought I'd browse a bit, cant resist posting a message.

   I came to the Seed thru the Tropical Park location at age 19 in 1973.  I was ordered through the Dade County court system.....  or else go to Raiford for 5-10 years for a conviction on sale and possession charges.  
   After having graduated my program and stayed in touch for many years.  Yes I remember all of the people whose names I have seen mentioned, John U, Suzie, Pam, Nick, and all of the others. And I its kinda funny but I was a trucker too,  and yes I remember even the Mother Trucker haha.
   I remember the singing and the baseball games out back of SR 84 and the football on Dania beach.

   Anyway Im doing quite well in my life, Ive been almost 30 years with the same company and have climbed the ranks.  Youll never hear me say an unkind word about the Seed or any of its people, because they did me right.  At age 19 I had no skills and my only aspirations were to live on a commune somewhere and shoot darvons. :sad:

   Thanks for hosting the website Greg, and I hope you dont mind my posting a differing opinion than what seems to be the norm here.

   [email protected] if ya dont have an axe to grind.

   Best of luck to all of you.

[GregFL]

Hello,and welcome. And your thoughts are encouraged. Even the home page says we encourage all opinions.

For some reason, there is a culture of having to pick a side. My vision for this website has always been something a bit different.

You are very welcome here, and I would love to hear your stories. Thank you for your kind words.

BTW, since you were involved all those years, did you ever hear the story about Art by the pool at the apartment complex on 441? I would love to hear it from the Seed's perspective.  This is it from the perspective of the other guy (me).

http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... &forum=8&4


Also, this is the first post in the Seed discussion forum, if you are interested in starting from the beginning.

http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... forum=8&23


 The way the forum self formats, you can't chronicalogically scroll thru because new posts bring topics to the front.

Isn't it amazing how we all process our time at the Seed so differently?  No matter what your opinion of your time there, we all share a common experience that bonds us in a way.  Welcome again. If you are in touch with anyone now, tell them about the forum. We would love participation from one of the senior staff members here...

[GregFL]

One thing I have observed here and find interesting is the kids that were in and younger seem to be real upset with their time in the seed and some of the older kids seem to view it more favorably... Who knows, but the differences in the way we all process our seed experience are blantant and further this is a general observation. Eveyone had a unique experience.

Dantari, thanks again for joining our little exploratory project here. I am looking forward to your participation.

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-08-15 19:07 ]

[Filobeddoe]

Greetings Dantari,
We have a similar story.... I was 17 & had been arrested a few times & dropped out of hs in 10th grade. The last time I was arrested it was for possession & battery on leo and was given the choice?? of trial or some kind of treatment. I think it may have been a bogus choice but I knew deep down that I was screwed up & was really going downhill.

While I didn't particularly like the program on a day to day basis, it "modified my behavior" (brainwashed if you will) so I could turn my life in a different direction.

I was very fortunate in that there were MANY neat seed kids in my town to hang around with for a couple years after the Seed. They took the place of my druggie friends & were alot better. We hung out together drinking coffee for hours at Denny's, went hunting, scuba diving, water skiing, etc.

Eventually, we went off into the world & did our own thing and I have lost touch with them long ago but we were really close for a while & most of us "stayed straight" for a long time. It took about 10 yrs before I had my first beer!

Generally speaking, I think a person with a problem (drug addict/abuser or alcoholic) has to "reach bottom" before they can really accept the indoctrination offered by a program like The Seed. I had reached bottom.

Alot of the kids in The Seed with me were younger & had problems... but maybe the program was more intense than they needed? All I know is that it WAS a part of my life because of it (or maybe inspite of my experiences there) I changed for the better.

Overall, it had more of a "positive" effect on me but there were some negatives too.....

[GregFL]

Well, I have a hard time understanding how anyone "needed" brainwashing, food and sleep deprivation, cultic mind control and general weirdness and social isolation.

I do understand however how someone who was self destructive and hurting themselves with drugs may have stopped at this juncture in life and then credited the experience to the seed.

Something I don't think you are taking into account, tho. I personally know many many people that went into the seed smoking a little pot or with "druggie attitudes" and then got out and used all sorts of drugs but now had additional problems. One of my good buddies died with a needle in his arm, Seed graduate. If you credit the Seed with saving you, don't you then have to blame them for this? I say neither applies, the blame or the credit.  How many people do you know now that never went thru the Seed yet quit drugs and are now drug free for years? I know many...who gets the credit for that?

My opinion is that the few that think they were helped in no way justifies the thousands who feel the experience was negative. Nor does it justify the suicides and broken families, the physc damage and the feelings of worthlessness so common..

All that being said, I am genuinely glad you both feel you weren't harmed by your seed experience.  I certainly don't share that sentiment.

[Dantari]

Hmm guess it turns out Im really in the wrong place.   I had thought this was a spot for where old friends were just saying hello.   Turns out this is where all the losers, misfits and fuck-ups ended up.

   I dont think Ive ever seen anyone with such a big axe to grid as yourself Greg.  I had always wondered where the people went to who couldnt make it at the seed.   Guess now I know.  Hope you manage to find some treatment somehere.

   Ciao.

[Filobeddoe]

Hello GregFL,
I am not in disagreement with any of your points. I know people who were screwed up as teens (my old "druggie" friend) & eventually got their stuff together & are great people (without The Seed).

Then there are alot who didn't get help & died or are still living self destructive lives now.

I had two best friends from the Seed. One of them was older than me (let's call him Rick) & graduated a year before. When we would hang out with 4 or 6 guys fishing, camping what have you... he was the leader, the funny one, the guy who was the happiest that had his shit together & we all liked him & looked up to him. He was going places! I found out a couple yrs after we drifted apart that he dropped out of college & was doing hard drugs & on the run from the law. To this day I don't know what happened to him. He may well have died with a needle in his arm??

My other friend was from a very religious family who had done alot of missionary work (Steve) who wasn't listening to his parents & was sent to the Seed to straighten him out. He was also a really neat kid and good friend! Anyway, he graduated the program & the path his life took was in the opposite direction. He went to a bible college & is now married & happily serving God as a missionary.

Can we give the Seed the credit or the blame? I really don't know... probably not.

My "personal" opinion is that God (a higher power than the Seed) was in control. If we turn TO him we do better than if we turn AWAY from him. I realize that this is grossly over-simplified however true in my case.

Your point about a person getting help? from the Seed at a juncture where they are self destructive and hurting themselves is a good one. It was a jolt that turned some away from that path.  

As to your point about voluntary brainwashing- an example came to mind of an example.. The Marine Corps basic training. A recruit is subjected to every sort of physical, mental, psycholical abuse imaginable. They are called maggots (or something similar) constantly ridiculed & their self esteem taken away. They are then slowly indoctrinated into this group (cult?) of the Marine Corps & are eventually told they are the greatest! The point being to tear them down then rebuild into them a certain mindset. You can question whether it is good or bad to be brainwashed in this way.... some would think it's good others wouldn't.

For me, I felt like I was being brainwashed at the time & afterward by the set of beliefs I was being instilled with. No doubt about it!

Funny thought, can you imagine getting up in a rap and talking like this :lol: Probably wouldn't be able to finish the 1st sentence.

[Filobeddoe]

Greetings Dantari,
I just found this site a week or so ago & can tell you that it's not a Seed Reunion lovefest but it is unfair to characterize it as totally one-sided (or worse as you did).

If you read a little closer (including the response by Greg to your first post) I think you'll find while there is a difference in opinion & experience there is also tolerance for all views. All views are in fact welcomed.

Think of it as a "friendly" debate or relating of experiences.

The moderator, GregFL seems to welcome other stories & opinions without attacking the motives.

He will probably defend himself... but I would ask you to read other's experiences & share your opinions... even if they seem to be the minority view. Some others may respond to your comments & be in agreement with you. There probably are alot of people who have a favorable view of their time with the program (myself included to some extent).

[GregFL]

I am a bit bewildered, but not really surprised at your reaction Dantari. You are not the first "pro seed" person to be welcomed here with open arms to then turn nasty for no apparent reason other than your long held beliefs are challenged. In fairness, not all have..witness trucker who seems to be able to state his pro seed views without resorting to ad hominem attacks.

Oh well, you are still welcome and I would thank you  for the feigned concern about treatment if it was truly genuine. Further,  I Don't need treatment (except maybe a little washin for a "druggie attitude") as I don't do drugs and rarely drink. Come to think of it, even as a 14 year old "druggie" i never had a substance abuse problem. I had a family problem that couldn't be solved with cultic voodoo. Further, I am self employed for 20 years, a single dad and I travel extensively.

But according to you, I am a loser misfit and fuck-up because I don't agree with you.  Hmm...ever stop to think where you developed that sort of judgemental trained attack come down on ya attitude?

Welcome again....and I mean it. I hope you find something worthwhile here and I look forward to your participation.

[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-08-17 13:08 ]

[GregFL]

   I dont think Ive ever seen anyone with such a big axe to grid as yourself Greg.  I had always wondered where the people went to who couldnt make it at the seed.   Guess now I know.  Hope you manage to find some treatment somehere.



   Ciao.



"

Couldn't make it at the Seed?  I was the first of 5 kids in my family to "graduate". I was considered for junior staff but really wasn't interested. I helped catch escapees and stood guard. I had newcomers.

I "made" it as long as I wanted to my friend. It was I that rejected the Seed, not the other way around.

I have no axe to grind..I am interested in the truth. I have no ill feelings towards anyone who was there,not Art Barker, not Libby, no one.
 I would love to sit and talk with any one of them, but knowing what I know about the nature of cults, the sentiment does not go both ways. You see, cult personalities cannot handle criticism, can't handle disention, can't handle any one else's perspective if it doesn't tow the cult line.


"he even knows what I am thinking right now".  

Robert Chun, speaking to a reporter about Art Barker while driving in a car about 1 1/2 years ago.

[GregFL]

On 2004-08-15 09:16:00, Filobeddoe wrote:

"Hello GregFL,

I am not in disagreement with any of your points. I know people who were screwed up as teens (my old "druggie" friend) & eventually got their stuff together & are great people (without The Seed).



Then there are alot who didn't get help & died or are still living self destructive lives now.



I had two best friends from the Seed. One of them was older than me (let's call him Rick) & graduated a year before. When we would hang out with 4 or 6 guys fishing, camping what have you... he was the leader, the funny one, the guy who was the happiest that had his shit together & we all liked him & looked up to him. He was going places! I found out a couple yrs after we drifted apart that he dropped out of college & was doing hard drugs & on the run from the law. To this day I don't know what happened to him. He may well have died with a needle in his arm??



My other friend was from a very religious family who had done alot of missionary work (Steve) who wasn't listening to his parents & was sent to the Seed to straighten him out. He was also a really neat kid and good friend! Anyway, he graduated the program & the path his life took was in the opposite direction. He went to a bible college & is now married & happily serving God as a missionary.



Can we give the Seed the credit or the blame? I really don't know... probably not.



My "personal" opinion is that God (a higher power than the Seed) was in control. If we turn TO him we do better than if we turn AWAY from him. I realize that this is grossly over-simplified however true in my case.



Your point about a person getting help? from the Seed at a juncture where they are self destructive and hurting themselves is a good one. It was a jolt that turned some away from that path.  



As to your point about voluntary brainwashing- an example came to mind of an example.. The Marine Corps basic training. A recruit is subjected to every sort of physical, mental, psycholical abuse imaginable. They are called maggots (or something similar) constantly ridiculed & their self esteem taken away. They are then slowly indoctrinated into this group (cult?) of the Marine Corps & are eventually told they are the greatest! The point being to tear them down then rebuild into them a certain mindset. You can question whether it is good or bad to be brainwashed in this way.... some would think it's good others wouldn't.



For me, I felt like I was being brainwashed at the time & afterward by the set of beliefs I was being instilled with. No doubt about it!



Funny thought, can you imagine getting up in a rap and talking like this :lol: Probably wouldn't be able to finish the 1st sentence.

"

great post filabee. You are obviously thinking about this stuff and that is good.

 Your comparison to the marine corps is one that has been made before. Upon further examination, it doesn't really hold up.  Lets discuss.

First, when you join the military you do so usually voluntarily. We were mostly deceived and lied to upon our intake at the seed (except in the case of court order. I was told I could leave in 48 hours if I didn't like it. HA!

In the military, your family supports you and  you are in contact with them via letters. In the seed, your family affection is used as a behavior modification reward. You are yelled at in public meeting by your parents if you do not comply.

In the military, your brainwashing is for a set amount of time, you can basically maintain your sense of self and wait it out. In the seed and other cults, complete surrender of your personality is mandatory or your time in is unending. Once you submit,  you are rebuilt in the image of the cult.  Your belief system is picked for you.

In the military, you can speak your mind to your friends. IF you did so in the Seed, you were immediately punished severly.

In the military, you are encouraged to make friends. In the seed cult, you were isolated from everyone until you earned the "priviledge" to talk to other new people.

The differences go on and on. The military uses behavior modification but it is much less severe than cultic mind control.

[GregFL]

Funny thought, can you imagine getting up in a rap and talking like this :lol: Probably wouldn't be able to finish the 1st sentence.

"

You woulda been torn apart personally for a few hours and then started over. The truth was never allowed, only their version of the truth. Independent thought was immediately severely punished, and thinking was deemed "getting into your head", it wasn't allowed.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-08-15 08:52:00, Dantari wrote:

"   Hmm guess it turns out Im really in the wrong place.   I had thought this was a spot for where old friends were just saying hello.  

hello :wave:



"Turns out this is where all the losers, misfits and fuck-ups ended up."
_____________________________________________





And here you are....hello again! :wave:



"Hope you manage to find some treatment somewhere."
________________________________________________


Hey, how about here... click this link and click on the "bingo" video

   http://fornits.com/anonanon/video/

....this "treatment  meet with your approval? Ring a bell?

 :grin:  :grin:  :grin:

[Filobeddoe]

Greetings GregFL,
Your points about the differences between the brainwashing/indoctrination/behavior modification of the Seed vs the Marine Corps while true ... miss the point.

Both groups have a system with the goals of 1) modifying behavior to fit the group 2) Instilling a esprit de corps/pride of belonging to the group 3) "breaking" the trainee/newcomer & eventually building him up to fit the desired mold, etc. The methods of this brainwashing/indoctrination are also similar as I mentioned.

If I were to say: "Home Depot & Lowe's are both building supply stores" .... someone could point out a dozen differences between them but they would still be building supply stores.

Just because there are differences between The Seed & the Marines doesn't mean that they aren't very similar in their goals to shape young minds.
Personally, I believe my Seed experience was much like a Marine grunt.

[Antigen]

The primary difference between the Marines and The Seed is the intended outcome.

The Marines have to produce men who are strong minded, independent, self reliant, confident and able to think for themselves and make ethical decisions. After all, the final goal is to equip them with high powered weaponry and killing skills. We can't have them going off all neurotic.

Art's goal for Seedlings has always been to have a following of helpless, broken, incomplete people who can't wipe their asses w/o him and so they'll do absolutely anything he tells them to. That's how he managed to go from an unseaworthy boat tied off on the Intracoastal to a mansion in Venician Isles.

Moralizing, with the force of law or coercion, is a
far greater crime against the constitutional principles of our nation than unauthorized euphoria, regardless of the substance involved, be it chocolate or heroin.
--James