Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones

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ottawa5:
With reference to Son of Serbia's contribution given so energetically a couple of posts ago: just a few points in reply, to keep it simple and useful:

1) Do you have any proof that the great majority of CEDU graduates view their experience as negative?  I am asking sincerely: do you have any proof? I know you have anecdotes and so do I.  I mean any kind of survey, even on an internet site, or research or anything?

Because I see a few posted names here that tend to appear repeatedly, and I personally know a fairly large number of people who do not feel that way, but that still leaves the great majority of people who attended these schools unaccounted for.

It must certainly occur to you that if I am biased because I am brainwashed or whatever, the population that takes the time to post often at a "Hate CEDU" site is not necessarily representative of all the students who attended this kind of school.

I know that RMA's own internal data shows a very high success rate. but understandably internal data is to at least be questioned.  

2) I have never suggested that my experience was the same as my son's--please do not assume that because that's all it is: your assumption.  What I am saying is that the workshops were positive for me--which happens to be true and which is not going to change because it's not P.C. to say so here--if this truth bothers you, I regret it, and perhaps it's a deal-breaker as far as meaningful communication goes, but there it is.

3) On the subject of whether all confrontation is bad, we will simply have to disagree--we can agree that the form and the tone of the confrontation makes a big difference--that may be as much common ground as is possible between me and someone like yourself. Sometimes, that's the way it is when people ascribe to different value systems, have different life experiences, etc.

4) Putting a phrase such as "YOU ARE IN DENIAL" in caps may be useful to illustrate the force of your belief--it doesn't however make it true when it is not.

Look, I am not going to buy into a lot of hostility, I'm not going to be talked into saying things I don't believe, and I am sure not going to get derailed from my purpose because somebody gets upset and "rants" about the fact that I am "ranting".

Actually one or two more rants at this site ought to blend right in. However, do what you have to do, I'll try to take what is positive in what I find here and leave the rest. [ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-23 20:01 ][ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-07-24 22:36 ]

shanlea:
OK. I guess the problem concerns objective truths. I think there are subjective truths and objective truths. If there were no objective truths, there would be no way to have a relatively safe, orderly society.  To me, a place run by cultists (I realize that you don't agree with this definition)who aren't honest and are verbally abusive and encourage this in their "therapeutic" group sessions lack baseline ethics and moral fortitude.  If you think the way these raps are run are subjective, then there is no point in discussion.  I mean, they think its ok to kill women who have been tainted by rape in other societies, so I guess I can say that is their subjective truth.  If I were to apply this "subjective truth" to every evil/unethical action in the world, we would be in deep s*&^.  

The other thing is that after CEDU, even if you split, you are often still CEDU-fied.  THe experiences there are so intense, you can't just shake it off. Even though I split, it was years and years before I ever disclosed fully (even to myself) why I left, because it wasn't to go back to screwing up.  Instead, I over focused on the positive for me (this really entailed the hard physical labor, wilderness, forcing myself to deal w/disability -- not by the staff or by therapeutic measure by by the circumstances there) and suppressed the utter fear and anxiety of the raps and propheets, the falsehood propagated in these forums, the bullies at the school, the isolation and manipulation from and of my parents, the inability to question any part of the very flawed system, and frankly, the dangerous pasts of a few of the students. I know for a fact that it was too scary for most kids to EVER say how they felt about the program to parents, staff, visitors because of the ramifications later...your life would be a living hell. What happens is that this becomes so conditioned that you still follow this code even after you leave.  

On another site some people admit that if you asked them on their graduation day how they felt, it would be more positive than after they are reimmersed in the real world and have time to process it away from the insularity of CEDU. Various people have said they have nightmares ten, fifteen years later.

The other thing is that if you had any history with drugs or low self esteem, you get conditioned to believe you can't beat it without CEDU and see the place as your savior.  Many kids did not have real  drug problems but were conditioned to believe they did or would. I guess if you really did have a drug problem then you might see CEDU as a savior, especially with those tools given to you that don't always seem to work in real life.  

All in all, there were too many kids there who were parked there by their rich parents who never dealt with their real issues because the staff both recklessly mislabled and mishandled you.

These kids get out of school thinking they are OK and then end up swept by a tidal wave when they realize they have to deal with the same, unresolved issues.

Shanlea

mikehunt:
i don't know what percentage of students feel a particular way...
honestly, there are tons of people who couldn't handle cedu because they were unprepared.  there were others that just blocked it out.  either way, everyone was effected in one way or another.
i think that if cedu was actually honest with parents about their methods of treatment, then the parents could make a better choice about whether or not to send their kids to cedu.
for me, it goes back to the standardized approach in which all children are treated in the same way... well, we're all different, and we're all inevitably going to respond in different ways.   we all have different histories, different internal languages, different perspectives.  in order to actually help someone in a way which is most suitable for them, you must build a relationship with the person and decide which approaches would yield the best results.  it actually IS about manipulation, but it must remain ethical (in the therapised's best interest.)  i think that's where the problem lays; most people think that their standard method is the best method for everybody.  and they think that pushing their standards off onto another person in such a harsh manner is the way to get the results they want (which just proves that they're not interested in what the kid wants, it's about the skool's agenda.)  that's a no-no.[ This Message was edited by: mikehunt on 2004-07-24 13:23 ]

CEDU IS A CULT:
Ottawa5  This is a mutual site where we are fighting
the CEDU fascist philosophy.  Do you understand that!

Get out of here.  Why don't you go onto CEDU'S site?

Can't you see that we all share a common goal of shutting CEDU down?

Why can't you just fucking leave us alone?

Why are you fighting us?

Can't you see what you are doing?

Why don't you just go on CEDU's site and convince everyone how good everything is?

What the hell is your motivation?

What are you trying to do?

Leave us alone!!

We already heard ALL about your perspective during our internment at CEDU!!

On a personal note, I fucking HATE you and everyone of your mentality.

On a personal note why don't you just FUCK OFF!!

ottawa5:
Bryan--You may want to try some new words or insults, if you find that the old standbys you favor are either losing their shock value or becoming kind of immature for an adult and a father to use--just a thought.

No, I will not leave this site, not until I choose to.  Although I do not anticipate any meaningful conversation with you, at least not until something changes drastically in your current approach, there may be others that I want to interact with. And there may be new visitors to the site: they can read your comments and mine, and make their own determinations of the relative weight to give to them.

The tone of your post seems to indicate that you see this site as your own personal playpen-- when I hear that from the site's owner, I'll take it seriously. And I will visit other sites also as I have been doing, I thought that I had made pretty clear that I am comparing points of view from different sources, but I guess you didn't understand that.

That's about it, I just dealt with a similar recent post from you on another "Hot Topics" forum--you can refer to that one if my position about your present point of view is not clear.

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