Hidden Lake Academy

[SHH]

You people really need to chill out LOL...

Anyway, I have a question to pose to you. How old is the information you are posting here about the school? Do you know about changes made over the past 5 or 6 years? I do. Do you know about staff who were fired? or staff who were hired? Do you know specifically who supposedly abused the kids? Do you know what is going on at the school RIGHT NOW?  What I find unfair, in my opinion, is that some of the posters here are using old situations over 5 yrs old to state that the school is unfit and unsafe. Ever heard of "growing pains"? Ever heard of improving a program? Maybe they already have addressed whatever concerns you guys might have had in the past. Maybe whatever was going wrong has been fixed. Wouldnt that be enough for you guys? Or would you rather slander the whole school and its employees based on old policies, disgruntled ex employees, and exagerations? I stand by my PERSONAL experiences at the school. It was my home after all.

[Anonymous]

Who needs to 'chill out'? Have you ever heard that you don't answer a question with a question?

Now would be a good time to practice that if you want anyone to answer the questions you posed. If you are afraid of passionate discussion, you're in the wrong place. Or you should avoid certain people. That would include making any comments to them directly or indirectly.

If you're just here to  ::bigmouth:: and avoid serious discussion, you won't be taken seriously or given much respect. Your credibility rating, so far, has taken a dive with each new post.

[SHH]

Look, I really dont care what you think is credible or not, and I have been posting on various boards for over 8 years, so Im not looking for "acceptance". The reason I posted here was to give MY side of experience at HLA. Like I said..I LIVED there..it was my home for 4 years, from 1997-to Feb of 2001. All I am sharing is my view of what I saw at the school. You guys are just upset that I can come up with positive things about the school. I am posting my opinion of things, just like you guys are...and youre slamming me for it. The only "offensive" thing I posted was that some of you are exaggerating things youve either experienced or heard through the grapevine. Especially the "toxic" thing about the lake. That lake is fed by a stream that comes from inside the national forest. The school is surrounded on 3 sides by it. There is nothing toxic about it. I have eaten probably 30 fish out of there as have my husband and kids. If YOU guys want credibility, look at your own posts and think about what is true and what is heresay. My opinion of the school is only from the time frame of when I was there. I am not saying ALL of this on here is lies or anything, but since I KNOW some of it be, you guys dont have much credibility with ME either....alls fair in....etc etc...

[Anonymous]

And like other program supporters, you come here and accuse others of lying and/or exaggerating, but when confronted with proving your claim, you disengage and move to generalities, claim you are only here to share your experience and are being attacked by disgruntled people.

You have not just shared your experience. You have accused other of lying/exaggerating. I would like to see some validation of that. And remember, just because you didn't see it with your own eyes or hear it with your own ears, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

The 'question' about the lake was genuine. If it had been an accusation it would have been stated as such. That was an easy one. You avoid the more difficult questions.

You asked others 'how old' the info they were sharing is and suggest that that it was five years old or older. What did you base that comment on?

I hear that you would like to be considered an authority on HLA because 'it was your home' for 4 years. If you really want to defend the program, answer the questions posed to you and refrain from making accusations about other that you can't back up.

If you walk into someone's house and accuse them of being liars, chances are good that you're going to be confronted or asked to leave. Why does the response surprise you?

[SHH]

I have answered all the questions you guys have posed..which one didnt I answer? and I never said I was an authority...but neither are you...I am sharing MY side of my view of the school....you just dont like what Im saying. What do you want me to share about my experiences? ask me a specific question..and I will try to answer it. Specifically, I was associated with the school from its inception. My ex has been there over 10 years. I know Dr. B personally. I was neighbors with Greg Lindsey, Mike Witherspoon, John Semley, Meredith Burns, and Lee Parham. My ex mother and father in law worked at the school for 6 yrs. I lived on campus in a house by the townhouses for 4 years. My kids sledded with the students down the big hill when it snowed. I participated in the bonfires. I watched the plays, I ate in the cafeteria, I spent almost every thanksgiving dinner with the students in the cafeteria, I fished in the lake, played in the stream, watched most of the buildings being built. When the ice storm shut down the electricity for 5 days in 2000, my husband spent 18 hrs a day helping to get generators set up, gas from town, kitchen up and running, getting all the kids in the dorms with fireplaces. What i know about the school is from a resident point of view. NO I dont know that much about specific counselors or which ones were good and which werent bad, but I know about some that were fired and some admin people fired like Rudy and Jill and Dean and Laura Lynn. If I cant answer specific detailed questions it is because I cant remember very detail from 4-10 years ago, but I am sharing what I do remember. What I see here though is when I am posting about positive experiences that I saw at the school, you people think I have an agenda. What I am sharing is what I saw good at the school. I never saw or heard about kids being abused, or malnourished, or neglected. Its like you cant imagine anything good about the school. Ask me a specific question and I will try to answer. I dont see where I havent answered anything to the best of my ability.

OH and by the way, The reason I know some of the info you people are saying on here is old, is because the kids havent eaten cheese sandwiches on restriction for over 3 years. But you make it sound as if its still going on, and its not. So think not only about MY credibility, but your own as well.
[ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-02-17 05:35 ]

[Anonymous]

You claim to be willing to answer questions. Let?s recap. I know this is lengthy and will require your diligent attention, but it?s your opportunity to clarify some of your incongruent statements and possibly redeem your credibility.

First, who said that kids on restriction are still eating cheese sandwiches?

You said, ?I also witnessed kids making up stuff about counselors that I knew were lies personally to try to get out of the school?.
**Who, when, and how did you KNOW they were lying?

You said, ?I personally was a witness to the school for 7 years and yes they are licensed, and accredited by several organizations now?. You said elsewhere, ?Hidden Lake Academy was my HOME for 4 of the 7 years I was associated with the school?  
**?Personal witness? for 4 or 7 years? Was ?7? and exaggeration?
Who is HLA licensed by? Please post the link that would prove this. They state that they are ?accredited? by two organizations. What does ?accredited? mean?

You said, ?But overall, I never saw abuse, or harassment, or neglect?.
**You admitted to knowing that the kids were given inadequate calories and variety while on restriction. That is neglect. There was obviously a problem with this, otherwise they would not have been required to change it. You were asked previously ?why HLA had to make this change?. You didn?t respond.
You claim kids haven?t eaten cheese sandwiches in over 3 years, and that?s how you know people are posted ?old? information.
Close perhaps, but my son ate them as recently as late 2001.
You were also asked, ?Would you like to give a shot at defending white bread and cheese sandwiches for potentially weeks or months on end? Would you subject your own child to that?? You didn?t respond.
And, ?Do you know the consequences of inadequate protein? Do you know how it affects one's ability to think and process information??
And, ?Was there a dietician when your mil was cook? Or who instructed her on what and how much to prepare and how to determine if it was nutritionally adequate??
You were also given this opportunity, ?Please show me any research that supports the notion that using food as punishment is a useful and humane thing to do. It's not even allowed in prisons?.You didn?t respond except to imply that restriction only last a week and is occasional. That is inaccurate. A blatant lie, or exaggeration, or second-hand information?

You said, ?They werent even allowed to restrain the kids if they ran away off campus?.
**Are you implying that kids were/are not restrained at HLA or that they weren?t restrained when they attempted to run away? Would you be willing to testify under oath that you are absolutely positive that no child was ever restrained at HLA? Hint: you can?t by your own admission.

You said, ?Rudy and Jill were flakes, and were fired because of it?
You were asked, ?Rudy and Jill were fired because they were "flakes"? Ummmm.... wasn't there anything more substantial than that? What did they do that got them fired??
To which you responded, ?I dont remember the specifics of the direct reason they were fired. I just remember alot of folks were glad when they left?  and ?I didnt like him, or his wife? and ?since I did not like Rudy, I didnt hang around with him either? and ?So I dont know much about the guy personally other thatn he lived next door to me?.

And that you knew nothing about the more recent headmaster who was there when you claim to have been, ?As far as Greg Lindsey, professionaly I dont know how he behaved. I knew him through living next door to him and his children playing with mine, so my experience was more on a neighbor sort of level.?

When a program is unlicensed, therefore unmonitored or regulated by the state, it is incumbent on the Owner and/or Director to ensure that the policies of the program are being implimented correctly and that kids aren't being mistreated. If Rudy was there two years, and acting inappropriately, what took Dr B so long to get rid of him? Apparently everyone else disliked him and knew what he was doing.

You asked, ?Why dont you find some people who post about the good things that have come about with the kids? Like some of the ones I met who came out of the program with a new respect for themselves and others and who went onto ivy league schools??
**No one here is obligated to find those who are happy with their experience. You certainly are welcome to share about the kid(s) you knew personally. What problems s/he had before HLA. What problem s/he overcame? Which Ivy League college s/he is attending/attended?  How often do you speak with this person now?

You asked, ?Do you know about changes made over the past 5 or 6 years? Do you know what is going on at the school RIGHT NOW??
**Do you? Or would you be sharing second-hand information from people who are there and have a vested interest in presenting it in the best light? And elsewhere you divulge, ?I knew ALOT about what went on at the school, while I was associated with it. That was from 1994-2000. I can't speak about anything that may have happened after that because I wouldnt have known the details.? Isn?t the latter more accurate?
FYI,  Some of the changes have been reported here by others than yourself.

You asked, ?Ever heard of "growing pains"?
**This is not a case of 'growing pains'. When a program intentionally avoids state licensing and regulations by claiming to be a boarding school, yet advertises to the public as a therapeutic facility... that just smacks of fraud. And if HLA were operating with a license and in compliance with regulations, many of the things that posters here are complaining about, wouldn't have happened. State regs provide guidelines for policies and procedures designed to prevent new facilities from making common mistakes. How arrogant to make the kids guinea pigs for their 'growing pains'.

You asked, ?Ever heard of improving a program? Maybe they already have addressed whatever concerns you guys might have had in the past. Maybe whatever was going wrong has been fixed. Wouldnt that be enough for you guys? Or would you rather slander the whole school and its employees based on old policies, disgruntled ex employees, and exaggerations?
**?Slander? is a strong word. Can you prove that anyone here has done so?
Positive changes are welcomed. I personally won?t be satisfied until they are properly classified as an RTC and monitored by the state on a regular basis; until kids there have reasonable access to a public phone without being monitored or censored; until kids have a right to contact their parents and say what they think- freely without fear of punishment; until their mail is not censored; for starters.

You were given the opportunity to identify which posters you feel are lying/exaggerating and have chosen not to.  You are making general claims and refuse to address specifics. In the event that you haven't read it, here's the link:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=80#82739
I?ll ask again here:
Would you be so kind as to assign each of the people posting here to the category to which you KNOW they belong?  

And the categories are:
some people have an agenda to slander the school because they were fired.

Others are kids who didnt like being put there against their will and want to exagerate what their experiences were.

Other people are parents arent happy with what the program couldnt do for their child.

And still others are only stating what they "heard" from someone else.

[Anonymous]

I graduated from HLA in 2004 and I saw with my own eyes what you are all discussing.  The food served at HLA is unhealthy.  Most meals contain at least one or more deep fried dishes and a miniscule selection of food not containing meat.  The salad bar looked dangerous and the sandwich meat would often sit out uncovered from breakfast till dinner.  The cafeteria reeked of rot and during the summer flies were everywhere.  During weekday lunches, most of the counselors and teachers would come and eat in the cafeteria with us (many of whom brought food from home) and greatly exceeded the seating capacity, forcing many students to eat standing up.  

The worst part of all of this was the hunger.  Whenever we were given trash duty on restictions, everybody would almost jump out of their seats for the oppurtunity.  Those lucky enough to be picked would then race up to the dumpsters and rummage through them for food.  I know this because i used to do it.  A lot of the students would sign up for community service just so that they could eat leftovers at the soup kitchens.  It's kind of funny, I realized the other day that after going to HLA I am very protective of my food.  I have to remind myself constantly that I don't need to eat as much as i can whenever i have the oppurtunity because I'm not at HLA anymore. Eating is no longer a privelage.

The last thing i want to say is just that whather or not it's healthy or of sufficient quanity, the food at HLA is atrocious.  I know that this is not a major issue but i just want to mention it.  If, as a parent you visited the school and everything seemed decent, it's because you're there.  The school is very different whenever parents are there.  They usually take all of the kids who are on restrictions and send them off into the woods with one water bottle each and a little bagged lunch.  The rest of the students are assigned to partake in designated activities all over campus for the day.  Ask you're child what he or she was doing on grandparents weekend and im sure he/she'll tell you the same thing.  After Leaving Hidden Lake all i wanted to do was forget it but now i want to tell people what it's really like.  i will be checking this site regularly now so if you have any questions, please ask.  

One other thing.  The restrictions thing is mostly true.  I say mostly because it used to happen a lot.  Even when i first got to the school, people could be on restrictions for as long as three to four months without being sent away.  Towars the end of 2002 though they started a policy that if you were on restrictions for i think it was either a whole month or 25 days, you would be sent to ridge creek.

I hope this helped a bit.

[SHH]

I did some research...and found that the last time the Health Dept did their inspection on the kitchen, the grade was a 97. That was 5 months ago. Inspections are required and are done by the Health Dept. approximately every 3-6 months, on a random basis. This has been the case ever since I lived there.(The mandatory random inspections). Id have to say that 97 is a pretty good grade(A+).

[Deborah]

What is the HD looking at when they conduct and inspection?

[SHH]

When I was there and my mother in law worked in the kitchen, they looked at the equipment and whether it was working properly, looked at the dishwasher and the temperature it was washing at, the food in the cooler, the utensils, the ovens, the floor, the dumpster area, the eating area, the foodline and its equipment, the lighting, ceiling tiles, fans, and maybe other things, but that was what I remember from those inspections. And its a state requirement that the grade be posted in a conspicuous place just like in restaurants.

[Lynn m]

OK i have to call bullsh*t on a lot of this! Don't hide behind the anonymous tag, give a peer group or initials... first of all, the food is gathered and either tossed or covered an put in a cold box (which yes has passed the heath code inspection for temperture, etc); while a lot of the meals contain a fried selection, it is not the only choice, ever and there is always a vegetarian selection along with a nicely stocked salad bar, lunch meat bar, assortment of breads, cheese selection, fresh fruit and other healthier alternatives.  noted, there are usually a few more carbs then those who do the atkins thing would like.
as far as the flys and the "stench", any time there is food there are flies, they are not in the cafeteria and are usually around the trash that is outside after the meals waiting to be taken to the dumpster, yes by the students who usually have EARNED work assignements for doing silly stupid things - its called consequences, some of you parents may want to commit that word to memory, perhaps then you would not need these types of schools!
The counselors and teacher and staff members do eat in the lodge either before or with the student body and i have RARELY seen anyone bring their own food unless they were dieting.  They are asked to do so to be with the student body and be available for counseling help or academic help...there is more than enough seating for the entire student body plus staff. NO ONE IS EVER REQUIRED DUE TO CROWDING TO STAND TO EAT!  that comment is ridiculous...the students are actually required to be seated durning meals, they can get up and move around freely, so hold the comments about making them keep seated or whatever you are thinking.  As for students "jumping at the chance to do trash duty" first off, again it is a consequence, second, there is a staff member present during the trash runs to assure student safety and they would never and are never allowed to "pick through" the garbage, especially to eat!! that again is just silly! as well as untrue.
to be eligible for doing community service you have to meet certain criteria, to do any off campus events (activities, community service, etc) you have to be eligible and yes, some kids sign up to do these things to get the chance to get off campus, but to eat? no, not true.  again it is called "giving back" which most of these kids have never had to do...most of them just take and their parents give...money, gifts, cars, etc...not usually time, restrictions, consequences and then they send their kids to schools like this at 17 and over and expect them to "do something to make them stay" when they turn 18...when you don't ever tell your kid no, it is hard to start at 16!!
sure, some kids maybe don't need to be there but most of them have truly earned their spots! and some need an even more restrictive program and there are folks out there who are grateful for those, too!
There is one truth i did see in this comment and that is if a student serves to many days on restrictions they are recommended to go to ridge creek.  but it is an exorbanent amount of days!
OH and as for "if, as a parent you visited the school and everything seemed decent, it's because you're there.  The school is very different whenever parents are there.  They usually take all of the kids who are on restrictions and send them off into the woods with one water bottle each and a little bagged lunch.  The rest of the students are assigned to partake in designated activities all over campus for the day." TOTALLY UNTRUE!  there are parents and other visitors that come to the school at all different days and times of day.  they look at the school, the grounds, the cafeteria, the infirmary, the gym and even experience the cafeteria during meal times...unannounced!!  the staff and students do no know when they are having tours.  the only time the school does the special visit days where activities are planned are days like grandparents day so that other family members can see that the school is not a lock down or basement facility!  the thought that everyone's days could be disrupted to "put on some kind of act" is again a silly statement.
and yes, they changed the restrictions policy because obviously a child who spends an incredible amount of days on restrictions, just isn't getting it and sometimes needs a different type of intervention to help get their attention.
i know that there will be backlash, but i don't care, what i have said is true up to THIS day!
so come on nay sayers...bring it on!
On 2005-02-17 17:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I graduated from HLA in 2004 and I saw with my own eyes what you are all discussing.  The food served at HLA is unhealthy.  Most meals contain at least one or more deep fried dishes and a miniscule selection of food not containing meat.  The salad bar looked dangerous and the sandwich meat would often sit out uncovered from breakfast till dinner.  The cafeteria reeked of rot and during the summer flies were everywhere.  During weekday lunches, most of the counselors and teachers would come and eat in the cafeteria with us (many of whom brought food from home) and greatly exceeded the seating capacity, forcing many students to eat standing up.  



The worst part of all of this was the hunger.  Whenever we were given trash duty on restictions, everybody would almost jump out of their seats for the oppurtunity.  Those lucky enough to be picked would then race up to the dumpsters and rummage through them for food.  I know this because i used to do it.  A lot of the students would sign up for community service just so that they could eat leftovers at the soup kitchens.  It's kind of funny, I realized the other day that after going to HLA I am very protective of my food.  I have to remind myself constantly that I don't need to eat as much as i can whenever i have the oppurtunity because I'm not at HLA anymore. Eating is no longer a privelage.



The last thing i want to say is just that whather or not it's healthy or of sufficient quanity, the food at HLA is atrocious.  I know that this is not a major issue but i just want to mention it.  If, as a parent you visited the school and everything seemed decent, it's because you're there.  The school is very different whenever parents are there.  They usually take all of the kids who are on restrictions and send them off into the woods with one water bottle each and a little bagged lunch.  The rest of the students are assigned to partake in designated activities all over campus for the day.  Ask you're child what he or she was doing on grandparents weekend and im sure he/she'll tell you the same thing.  After Leaving Hidden Lake all i wanted to do was forget it but now i want to tell people what it's really like.  i will be checking this site regularly now so if you have any questions, please ask.  



One other thing.  The restrictions thing is mostly true.  I say mostly because it used to happen a lot.  Even when i first got to the school, people could be on restrictions for as long as three to four months without being sent away.  Towars the end of 2002 though they started a policy that if you were on restrictions for i think it was either a whole month or 25 days, you would be sent to ridge creek.



I hope this helped a bit."
[/quote]

[SHH]

Ok Im going to attempt to answer your questions as best I can...here goes:

"First, who said that kids on restriction are still eating cheese sandwiches?"

What I was trying to say was that some of these posts were IMPLYING that the kids still eat differently from the others. But they dont and havent for a long time. For over 3 years now. And I believe the reason for that was that they were keeping the restriction kids seperated from the others and sandwiches were something easily transported to another part of campus.

"You said, ?I also witnessed kids making up stuff about counselors that I knew were lies personally to try to get out of the school?.
**Who, when, and how did you KNOW they were lying?"

I dont remember who or specifically when but I do remember SEVERAL circumstances where Students would accuse staff of doing this or that when it was later found out that the staff werent even on duty that particular time, etc. OMG teenagers lying! What a concept! LOL Remember I have one....he will be 16 in August, so I know all about teenagers and their behavior patterns...and most of it is to be expected of that age group really.No big shock there.

"**?Personal witness? for 4 or 7 years? Was ?7? and exaggeration?"

Ok this one is a no brainer and Ive answered it already...I was associated with the school as the spouse of one of it's main employees for 6 years and 8 months(almost 7 yrs)..the 4 years I referenced was the actual time I lived on campus...and to be specific, it was 3 years and 10 months that I lived on campus in the house next to the townhouses.

"Who is HLA licensed by? Please post the link that would prove this. They state that they are ?accredited? by two organizations. What does ?accredited? mean?"

These are the two organizations they list on their website and I believe one other something like the Georgia private school association or something like that..but not sure their specific name.GEORGIA ACCREDITATION COMMISSION & SOUTHERN ASSOCIATION OF COLLEGES AND SCHOOLS. Also "accredited" means: To recognize (an institution of learning) as maintaining those standards requisite for its graduates to gain admission to other reputable institutions of higher learning or to achieve credentials for professional practice."

 You said, ?But overall, I never saw abuse, or harassment, or neglect?.
**You admitted to knowing that the kids were given inadequate calories and variety while on restriction. That is neglect. There was obviously a problem with this, otherwise they would not have been required to change it. You were asked previously ?why HLA had to make this change?. You didn?t respond

I didnt see neglect or abuse or harassment, and I still dont feel that sandwiches, soup, fruit, juice and milk constitute neglect...they were fed and nobody starved to death or were malnourished. As far as why they changed it I dont know I wasnt privy to that information. But I do know they changed and the kids get the food off the foodline but I think they still go outside..but not sure about that.

"You claim kids haven?t eaten cheese sandwiches in over 3 years, and that?s how you know people are posted ?old? information.
Close perhaps, but my son ate them as recently as late 2001"

Well late 2001 was over 3 years ago...if they changed it 3 years ago that would be logical that he still ate them 3 years and 4 months ago?

"Would you subject your own child to that?? You didn?t respond."

Well since I dont feel that eating sandwiches and soup for a few weeks was neglect and my child needed discipline and part of that discipline meant not getting fried chicken or dessert or cheeseburgers for a few weeks then so be it.

And, ?Do you know the consequences of inadequate protein? Do you know how it affects one's ability to think and process information??

Yes I do know the consequences of inadequate protein...but since no child was ever taken to the hospital as malnourished as you CLAIM they were...it sure doesnt sound as if they were deprived of food so badly to lead them to affect their brains. Starvation does that...they werent starved.

And, ?Was there a dietician when your mil was cook? Or who instructed her on what and how much to prepare and how to determine if it was nutritionally adequate??

I dont specifically remember who set the menu for the school in the early days if they had a dietician or recommendation list..but my mother in law worked for literally years in a public school cafeteria and knew all about dietary needs for children so on her own I believe she was probably qualified..and being the parent of 3 kids and 8 grandchildren as well I am SURE she knows how to feed a family with children. She was no dummy thats for sure.

"You were also given this opportunity, ?Please show me any research that supports the notion that using food as punishment is a useful and humane thing to do. It's not even allowed in prisons?.You didn?t respond except to imply that restriction only last a week and is occasional. That is inaccurate. A blatant lie, or exaggeration, or second-hand information?"

Since I dont believe that they were using food as punishment, simply to make their meals more simple isnt punishment, I dont have to show research that supports that notion since thats not what they were doing. And I didnt imply that restrictions only lasted a week..they normally do only last a week...if they keep misbehaving or something else happens I understand they get another set of restrictions, but as someone else pointed out..eventually they get sent to Ridge Creek if they dont get the point. And since I wasnt a counselor, I did get information second hand...but everybody including you is getting information second hand..so you cant discredit it can you, because you werent a counselor or on campus either.

" You said, ?They werent even allowed to restrain the kids if they ran away off campus?.
**Are you implying that kids were/are not restrained at HLA or that they weren?t restrained when they attempted to run away? Would you be willing to testify under oath that you are absolutely positive that no child was ever restrained at HLA? Hint: you can?t by your own admission"

They were not allowed to restrain the kids it is a hands off facility...anybody restraining kids was reprimanded or fired....the ONLY time I ever heard about it being allowed...in the policy..was if a child was maybe trying to hurt themselves with a sharp object or getting ready to hit another child. It is a hands off facility and it is in their policy. Runaways could only be followed in a car and once they got off campus it was REQUIRED that they call the sheriffs office. They werent doing it to be mean to the kids..it was for their own safety. Any kook out there could pick up the kids on the main road and if they ran away at night there were bears and bobcats and coyotes that would make walking down a dark mountain road quite dangerous. I know all about the critters there was a bear that used to sit on my garbage can on my back deck and eat his midnight snack! But he eventually left for greener pastures.

"You said, ?Rudy and Jill were flakes, and were fired because of it?
You were asked, ?Rudy and Jill were fired because they were "flakes"? Ummmm.... wasn't there anything more substantial than that? What did they do that got them fired??

They were flakes..but I dont specifically remember the one incident that got them fired. I am sure I knew at that time but dont remember now. I just remember that they werent what the owner wanted for his school but that he probably didnt realize that at first. You would have to call up Dr B and ask him, I bet he would remember the specifics.

 "And that you knew nothing about the more recent headmaster who was there when you claim to have been, ?As far as Greg Lindsey, professionaly I dont know how he behaved. I knew him through living next door to him and his children playing with mine, so my experience was more on a neighbor sort of level"

Not sure why you dont like my statement here..I never heard anything specifically bad about Greg...and I really didnt know about his professional behavior because I never heard anybody complain about it...but I knew him more on a social level like at christmas parties..work retreats...cookouts with the neighbors..that sort of thing..and his son played with my kids and his daughter babysat a few times too. But he was there a long time so I can only assume he was ok as an employee and ok at his job.


"When a program is unlicensed, therefore unmonitored or regulated by the state, it is incumbent on the Owner and/or Director to ensure that the policies of the program are being implimented correctly and that kids aren't being mistreated. If Rudy was there two years, and acting inappropriately, what took Dr B so long to get rid of him? Apparently everyone else disliked him and knew what he was doing."

When a program is new...it has to operate a certain length of time to become accredited..and get observed...I remember it being accredited by an organization fairly early on but dont remember which one...and it was monitored by the state..the health department for one..and other groups as well...as far as when Rudy was fired...I am sure it was done as soon as Dr B felt it was necessary..but once again...you need to talk to him about the specifics...Dr B is extremely professional and careful and I bet you could get your answers there.

I dont know any of the kids now.....but I knew some then...I remember a kid early on named Brian who really got along well with my mother in law and father in law..good kid...very bright..and certainly didnt seem unhappy...and a girl named Devon who we talked to quite a bit..and I remember some kids being glad to be at the school because their homelife was so awful. I remember the school going out and buying extra christmas present to give to the kids on Christmas who's parents wouldnt send gifts...so they wouldnt feel left out...and they would special things for those students so they wouldnt feel bad...does that sound like an abusive environment to YOU?


"*Do you? Or would you be sharing second-hand information from people who are there and have a vested interest in presenting it in the best light? And elsewhere you divulge, ?I knew ALOT about what went on at the school, while I was associated with it. That was from 1994-2000. I can't speak about anything that may have happened after that because I wouldnt have known the details.? Isn?t the latter more accurate?
FYI, Some of the changes have been reported here by others than yourself."

No I dont know FIRST hand what is happening there...so yes its second hand...but so is what you are talking about...and the people that I talk to dont LIE. I am telling you what I know..and what I dont know....some things i know..and some I dont...I am not telling you anything that I dont know to be the truth.

**This is not a case of 'growing pains'. When a program intentionally avoids state licensing and regulations by claiming to be a boarding school, yet advertises to the public as a therapeutic facility... that just smacks of fraud. And if HLA were operating with a license and in compliance with regulations, many of the things that posters here are complaining about, wouldn't have happened. State regs provide guidelines for policies and procedures designed to prevent new facilities from making common mistakes. How arrogant to make the kids guinea pigs for their 'growing pains'.

First of all..if a school decides that a practice isnt worked like they thought..or its not getting results...they change it..its called improvement...and thats what all schools do..DUH...the kids werent guinea pigs..they benefited from any changes made I am sure...but nobody intentionally opened that school to make kids guinea pigs...and secondly..nobody intentially avoided regulatioins..they were trying to get organizations to accredit them so how is that avoidance??? another DUH and it IS a therapeutic facility...they have counseling and NA meetings and AA meetings and therapeutic programs and rewards and they do community service and do things for the poor in the area and the elderly.


**?Slander? is a strong word. Can you prove that anyone here has done so?
Positive changes are welcomed. I personally won?t be satisfied until they are properly classified as an RTC and monitored by the state on a regular basis; until kids there have reasonable access to a public phone without being monitored or censored; until kids have a right to contact their parents and say what they think- freely without fear of punishment; until their mail is not censored; for starters.


Slander is when you post "heresay" and things you arent sure about and detrimentally hurt someones reputation..and yes...slander is what I have seen some of you post...so its not a harsh word..its what I am seeing. And the school is monitored by the state..no school that big can be run without being monitored. And as far as having access to a public phone..do you know what happens when you give teenagers access to a public phone??? I do....they call their boyfriends and meet them out at the road and run away with them. Yes its happened..so dont tell me that wouldnt happen. You cant give teens who have a history of running away and getting into trouble access freely to a phone. It makes no logical sense. And if they were in that much fear of their lives I am sure they could find someone to tell their fears to...you make it sound as if not a single counselor or employee is trustworthy..and they have over 160 employees!

Ok theres your answers....feel free to PICK through my statements once again and find fault with my views.

And by the way if I dont answer as FAST as you would like...its not because I am AFRAID to answer..it is because I take care of 2 children, a disabled husband, a disabled father, a 101 yr old grandfather, and I also work fulltime, and I dont have alot of FREE time.


font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: SHH on 2005-02-19 14:40 ]

[RobertBruce]

Lets take some time to clear up a few of the manipulations Shh has tride.

1. But I also witnessed kids making up stuff about counselors that I knew were lies personally to try to get out of the school

She makes mention of this yet fails to mention wittnessing any counsolers lying to parents in order to keep their child in the school.

2. But overall, I never saw abuse, or harassment, or neglect.

She must have had her eyes closed for 4-7 years.

3. They werent even allowed to restrain the kids if they ran away off campus.

True the policy was not to restrain kids off campus, on campus however was fair game.

4.ded with my children and the students down the big hill when it snowed

The students had no sleds, they could have been used as weapons, along with toilet paper.

5. ...I had never heard of a child being on restriction for months...thats ridiculous...the longest restriction I heard was a week or two.

She claims to have never heard of this, perhaps she simply chooses not to acknowledge it. I personally had a roommate who was on restriction for seven months without a break.

6. As far as restriction diets, the kids eat what the other kids are eating in the food line, and have been for several years.

This is a lie. Students on restriction get two travel boxes of cereal and a carton of milk. For lunch and dinner they get a single cheese sandwich and a bowl of soup. Fruit and seconds are handed out at the drill srgnts. discretion to whom they deem worthy of food.

7.Maybe they already have addressed whatever concerns you guys might have had in the past. Maybe whatever was going wrong has been fixed. Wouldnt that be enough for you guys? Or would you rather slander the whole school and its employees based on old policies, disgruntled ex employees, and exagerations? I stand by my PERSONAL experiences at the school. It was my home after all.

If this was true why are more and more people coming out stating the same things people were complaining about when the place first opened? I stand by my PERSONAL experiences at the school. It was my prison after all.

8.You guys are just upset that I can come up with positive things about the school. I am posting my opinion of things, just like you guys are...and youre slamming me for it.

Perhaps we picked up this habit from HLA. You know attacking a person for not going along with our status qou? Or having a differing opinion, or God forbid complaining about anything ever, and stating how you feel.
 

9. I am not saying ALL of this on here is lies or anything, but since I KNOW some of it be, you guys dont have much credibility with ME either....alls fair in....etc etc...

I didnt hear anything through any grape vine, Im basing my opinion on my own experiences. So we both cant be right.
 

10. I never saw or heard about kids being abused, or malnourished, or neglected. Its like you cant imagine anything good about the school.

Theres nothing to imagien. Again though if you never saw or heard about kids being abused, I would say youre propogating your own self delusions to abate your own guilt.

11. I dont remember who or specifically when but I do remember SEVERAL circumstances where Students would accuse staff of doing this or that when it was later found out that the staff werent even on duty that particular time, etc. OMG teenagers lying! What a concept! LOL Remember I have one....he will be 16 in August, so I know all about teenagers and their behavior patterns...and most of it is to be expected of that age group really.No big shock there.

What is a shock is that you and many others there claimed to be there working towards the best interest of children when all you were actualy interested in was our parents money and keeping us there as long as possible. Now that is shocking, but hey, hell was made for somebody right?

11.I didnt see neglect or abuse or harassment, and I still dont feel that sandwiches, soup, fruit, juice and milk constitute neglect...they were fed and nobody starved to death or were malnourished. As far as why they changed it I dont know I wasnt privy to that information. But I do know they changed and the kids get the food off the foodline but I think they still go outside..but not sure about that.

Would sexual abuse. or physical abuse count in your book?


12.They were not allowed to restrain the kids it is a hands off facility...anybody restraining kids was reprimanded or fired....the ONLY time I ever heard about it being allowed...in the policy..was if a child was maybe trying to hurt themselves with a sharp object or getting ready to hit another child. It is a hands off facility and it is in their policy. Runaways could only be followed in a car and once they got off campus it was REQUIRED that they call the sheriffs office. They werent doing it to be mean to the kids..it was for their own safety. Any kook out there could pick up the kids on the main road and if they ran away at night there were bears and bobcats and coyotes that would make walking down a dark mountain road quite dangerous. I know all about the critters there was a bear that used to sit on my garbage can on my back deck and eat his midnight snack! But he eventually left for greener pastures.

Yet they force children to sleep in this wilderness you speak of? As to your claim that any employee who touched a child was fired. Given your time frame im sure you around when Jimsir attacked a student named Blake simply because he made a smart comment to him? Jim is still an employee there is he not? There are other examples if you need them.

13.No I dont know FIRST hand what is happening there...so yes its second hand...but so is what you are talking about...and the people that I talk to dont LIE. I am telling you what I know..and what I dont know....some things i know..and some I dont...I am not telling you anything that I dont know to be the truth.

Well we dont lie either? So how can both be telling the truth? Obviously us since its been shown already youve made several statements which are in fact lies.

14. Slander is when you post "heresay" and things you arent sure about and detrimentally hurt someones reputation..and yes...slander is what I have seen some of you post...so its not a harsh word..its what I am seeing.

Im sure about all my statements, what would you call it then? Oh yeah facts.

15.And by the way if I dont answer as FAST as you would like...its not because I am AFRAID to answer..it is because I take care of 2 children, a disabled husband, a disabled father, a 101 yr old grandfather, and I also work fulltime, and I dont have alot of FREE time.

Disabled husband? Didnt you just get divorced? My that was quick. Are you having a promiscuity issue? Perhaps we should talk about it further.

[SHH]

I will answer most of your questions later..I have to go to work..however I will take issue with your last comment...I didnt JUST get divorced....I got divorced in February 2001. I was separated in January 2001. I got remarried in Late September 2002. Almost 2 years later. I am almost 40 years old. My ex is also remarried. I have 1 child and 3 stepchildren. My ex has 3 children and 1 stepchild. We are HARDLY promiscuous. The rest I will answer later when I have more time. I havent attacked you personally, I said some statements on here werent true..so keep your attacks to my statements and leave me personally out of it. Maturity will show you that Robert.

[Anonymous]

Maturity tells me that RBs post had less to do with you personally and more to do with the double standard modeled for the teens. Serial monogamy is very frequently a cover for ?promiscuity?.
No, his comment had much more to do with normal teen behaviors being labeled ?promiscuous?.  Just as teens who admit to having smoke pot are labeled ?addict? and sentenced to AA for the duration of their stay.
Are you 'promiscuous'? Probably no more than the teens who were 'treated' for it. When one puts themselves in the position of ?judging? others, they will be scrutinized. Your defense of HLA makes you open game. One size does not fit all.
What was HLAs technical, working definition of
'promiscuous'?