Author Topic: We are not alone!  (Read 20729 times)

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Offline Carmel

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« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2004, 10:49:00 AM »
You want facts? Well, I guess depending on who you talk to...the facts can be defined and interpreted ad nauseum.

FACT is...no one can really say what the FACTS are.  Because I dont believe anyone has enough of them to be taken seriously.  THAT however, does not mean that there isnt some truth to the explaination of an otherworldy phenonmenon.  

I hate it when people bust out the physics issue talking about how it is impossible to do this or that, space travel ...la la la.  Not too long ago we thought the earth was flat, and even after that we were certain that the sun revolved around us. Ironic that.  Humans would tend to place themselves as the center of the Universe.  If we havent harnessed the power of the black hole yet, how could anyone or anything else possibly have?  Rubbish I say!  Gimme a break.

Anyhow, what we DO know at this point in history is only a modicum of what we COULD know in the future   ...and it is ignorant and conceited to think that we can apply todays definitions of our universe to things we have yet to understand.  Because, well, because we dont really have ALL the FACTS do we?  Its also very narrow that we could presume to understand any intentions of an alien race in doing anything.  As if what they arer doing should mirror our own thought processes and actions

I dont think it should take a dead alien body or a videotape to be open the idea that for whatever reason we have indeed experienced something not of this world at some point or another.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2004, 03:38:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-05-24 07:49:00, Carmel wrote:

"You want facts? Well, I guess depending on who you talk to...the facts can be defined and interpreted ad nauseum.



FACT is...no one can really say what the FACTS are.  Because I dont believe anyone has enough of them to be taken seriously.  THAT however, does not mean that there isnt some truth to the explaination of an otherworldy phenonmenon.  



I hate it when people bust out the physics issue talking about how it is impossible to do this or that, space travel ...la la la.  Not too long ago we thought the earth was flat, and even after that we were certain that the sun revolved around us. Ironic that.  Humans would tend to place themselves as the center of the Universe.  If we havent harnessed the power of the black hole yet, how could anyone or anything else possibly have?  Rubbish I say!  Gimme a break.



Anyhow, what we DO know at this point in history is only a modicum of what we COULD know in the future   ...and it is ignorant and conceited to think that we can apply todays definitions of our universe to things we have yet to understand.  Because, well, because we dont really have ALL the FACTS do we?  Its also very narrow that we could presume to understand any intentions of an alien race in doing anything.  As if what they arer doing should mirror our own thought processes and actions



I dont think it should take a dead alien body or a videotape to be open the idea that for whatever reason we have indeed experienced something not of this world at some point or another.  



"



Well, thanks for the, er....evidence.

Carmel, no one said facts, I said show me evidence. No one has, only crap. Just in this thread alone you can find examples of the UFo community at large...to put it nicely, I will call it miscommunication and manipulation of events. Take Buzz Aldrin's statement about what happened in apollo for example, then we have a poster (and the "UFO community" I might add) extrapolating a probable panel off the spaceship into a lunar alien base, being surrounded by aliens,coverup consopiracies,  fabricated conversations, etc. etc.  It is unbelievable the level of nonsense that flies from a simple statement easily looked up from Buzz Aldrin.

I never said space travel over huge distances was impossible, only unlikely, and especially unlikely that said travelers would hide their existence once undertaking the momunental task of overcoming the limitations of time/space travel. Not to mention overcoming said limitations then crashing.

It is not that we don't have "All the facts" it is that no real evidence has been presented for alien visitors. Have they been here? Hell, I don't know and apparently neither does anyone else. What the UFO people have is a bunch of bullshit nonsense and unreliable eyewitness accounts.

I would be the first to embrace real evidence of alien visitors, but no one will provide it. Apparently, they can't.

And as far as ignorance goes, it is ignorance to proclaim things as fact when  they are unknown. It is ignorant to accept at face value stories of superfantisical from a group of people that have been proven frauds and nutcases. It is ignorant to claim things such as travel thru Blackholes when there is no indication that this is possible.


Again, unknown lights in the sky are no more evidence of alien visitors than they are of flying witches or glowing supernatural beings. Until such things (and up till now it hasn't happened) are shown to be of a other world source, you are just blowing smoke.

Provide some evidence please.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2004, 11:36:00 AM »
Carmel, no one said facts, I said show me evidence. No one has, only crap. Just in this thread alone you can find examples of the UFo community at large...to put it nicely, I will call it miscommunication and manipulation of events. Take Buzz Aldrin's statement about what happened in apollo for example, then we have a poster (and the "UFO community" I might add) extrapolating a probable panel off the spaceship into a lunar alien base, being surrounded by aliens,coverup consopiracies,  fabricated conversations, etc. etc.  It is unbelievable the level of nonsense that flies from a simple statement easily looked up from Buzz Aldrin.


I agree, people..well, most people who are involved in the UFO community are freak-os and are looking way too far for a spectacular explaination for something that is probably very basic.  If not completely natural phenomenon (most of the time).


I never said space travel over huge distances was impossible, only unlikely, and especially unlikely that said travelers would hide their existence once undertaking the momunental task of overcoming the limitations of time/space travel. Not to mention overcoming said limitations then crashing.



1000 years ago, the technology of the automobile would have seemed ludicrous, impossible, unattainable, and completely unexplainable...to the people of that time...otherwordly phenonmenon would be the order of the day if someone saw you driving through a field in your Chevy back then.  However, these days we all drive all the time and take the technology behind our ability to do so completely for granted.  We crash our cars daily, and even on purpose occasionally.  Nothing spectacular about that.  This is why I say its narrow to try and fit something like an alien presence into the parameters of our own perspective, such as it is, at this point in time.  


It is not that we don't have "All the facts" it is that no real evidence has been presented for alien visitors. Have they been here? Hell, I don't know and apparently neither does anyone else. What the UFO people have is a bunch of bullshit nonsense and unreliable eyewitness accounts.


I agree

I would be the first to embrace real evidence of alien visitors, but no one will provide it. Apparently, they can't.



So would I, but again...I dont need hard evidence to be completely open to the possibility that there are indeed other civilizations or forms of life in this Universe.  According to our own laws of probability, this is so.


And as far as ignorance goes, it is ignorance to proclaim things as fact when  they are unknown. It is ignorant to accept at face value stories of superfantisical from a group of people that have been proven frauds and nutcases. It is ignorant to claim things such as travel thru Blackholes when there is no indication that this is possible.


No indication that this is possible at our current level of understanding...try to think outside the box on this one.
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Offline Triumvirate

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« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2004, 11:53:00 AM »
This coming from a guy that cannot even single post.
 You, sir, lose at the intarweb.
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Offline Carmel

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« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2004, 12:55:00 PM »
Sorry, that was me..I dont have the hang of cutting and pasting quotes.  I wanted to respond to several points and I dont do it in that format too often.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2004, 02:15:00 PM »
-------------------------------------------------
Carmel;
So would I, but again...I dont need hard evidence to be completely open to the possibility that there are indeed other civilizations or forms of life in this Universe.  According to our own laws of probability, this is so.
-------------------------------------------------



And I too Carmel, share that sentiment with you. I just don't think they are flying around here, sneaking about and harrassing hysterical people. When the evidence appears that this is happening, I will consider it. Until then, it seems as if it is mass hysteria and very uncredible.


-------------------------------------------------
Carmel;
No indication that this is possible at our current level of understanding...try to think outside the box on this one.

--------------------------------------------------


I acknowldege all types of possiblities, Carmel. I just refuse to accept as fact things that are speculative, and you should also.

Now, anyone got any EVIDENCE of UFO's to share?



ps, I too just had an "otherwordly" experience trying to cut and paste. I have corrected it to the best of my ability.




[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2004-05-25 11:29 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2004, 03:36:00 PM »
Through the looking glass
The world of the UFO "believer"
Personal observations of Royston Paynter


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Broadly speaking, there are two flavours of UFOlogy - a serious kind, practiced by means of the scientific method, and what I shall call "popular UFOlogy", the kind one finds on the bookshelves in the "New Age" section. There can be no doubt that UFOs really do exist - but "UFO" means "unidentified flying object", and as far as I am aware, there is no tangible proof that any UFO was an alien space ship. But it is undeniable that some people really do see (or think they see) things in the sky that they do not recognize. To call these things "UFO"s is perhaps prejudicial - because the words "flying object" imply a nuts-and-bolts apparatus such as an alien space ship. A better term would be "unidentified aerial apparition", the scientific study of which has led to the discovery of a number of unusual natural phenomena, such as "Earth lights", a kind of atmospheric discharge caused by geomagnetic activity.

In this essay I want to address popular UFOlogy, which, in North America, means the belief that some UFOs are alien space ships. Why do so many people (at least half of Americans questioned) believe such an incredible thing, and on the basis of such scant evidence?

The simple answer is that they believe it because they do not consider it to be incredible, or the evidence to be scant.

How so? To find the answer we must step through the looking glass into the world of the "believer", where we will find a self-consistent universe full of alien life forms, science-fiction technologies, and political intrigue.

Possibility is inevitability
We must start with the question of the existence of alien life, for without a belief in that popular UFOlogy could not even get off the ground. What are the facts as we know them?

If we put aside the claims of popular UFOlogy itself, we find that there is no evidence whatsoever that intelligent alien life even exists. The various SETI (search for extraterrestrial intelligence) projects, that sweep the sky with powerful radio telescopes, listening for alien signals, have turned up nothing. Whereas Mars may once have harboured unicellular organisms, according to the Viking probes that landed there, it is now a dead planet. As far as science is aware, therefore, we are alone in the universe.

Nonetheless, one would be hard pressed to find an informed scientist who is willing to argue that life is unique to the Earth. On the contrary, most scientists believe that alien life probably does exist, out there, somewhere, because, the universe is so darned BIG. Even if intelligent life is a one-in-a-billion proposition, there are so many billions of stars out there that it would frankly be astonishing to find that alien life did not exist.

The believer takes this to mean that alien life definitely does exist. His next challenge is to get his aliens to Earth.

One can construct arguments about how difficult interstellar travel would be based upon physics as we know it. Frank Drake, for example, argues that the expenditure of energy and resources required to move 100 aliens to a nearby star system would provide a luxurious standard of living for 100,000 aliens were they to stay home, and that therefore, any alien race that could count would figure it a waste of resources to attempt an exploration of the galaxy (except by radio communication.) One can also argue that the distance between stars is just too great to be traversed in a meaningful time.

However, in the view of the "believer", such arguments are closed-minded. To the "believer", the "light barrier" will some day be broken, just like the sound barrier. He might even point to Alcubierre's "warp drive" paper and conclude that, because possibility is inevitability, aliens have access to "exotic matter" and use such a trans-light technology. His final argument will be that "science does not know everything", that the laws of physics as we now know them are a transitory approximation to a set of laws known to, and exploited by, our alien visitors.

It is undeniably possible that aliens exist, and that they could even visit the Earth. There is no point to arguing that such a feat of technology would be impossible for humans, because, well, these are aliens, and who is to say that they do not have a "warp drive" or 10,000-year life spans? Skeptics must concede the possibility of alien visitations, I believe, but not their inevitability. The proof, surely, must be found in the pudding. The crucial question that popular UFOlogy must answer is: where is the physical evidence that aliens are visiting the Earth?

Where's the beef?
The lynch pin of a belief in alien visitations has to be a conspiracy theory - the notion that the physical evidence of alien visitations is being kept from the general public by the government or by the aliens themselves. Without a conspiracy theory of some kind a belief in alien visitations is simply untenable, because, in the public domain there is no physical evidence whatsoever that aliens are visiting the Earth.

"Believers" will argue that there is a mountain of evidence - sightings, reports, and even physical evidence like crop circles, mutilated cattle and marks on the ground. But all of these examples of "evidence" are really just claims - it is claimed that what was seen was an alien space ship, or it is claimed that a cow was mutilated by aliens, but there is never any properly scientific proof that aliens were actually involved.

In fact, popular UFOlogy consists entirely of claims, and it is only these claims that are available for study. We simply cannot study the UFO itself (it is unidentified by definition and a transitory phenomenon) and we cannot reproduce the sighting in the laboratory. But we have a mountain of claims about aliens and no physical evidence whatsoever that aliens even exist!

How can we reconcile the claims with the lack of evidence? Skeptics adopt an open-minded approach and put aside the claim of aliens in order to determine the true nature of the phenomenon. The problem, as I have said above, is that most of the time the only "phenomenon" left to study is the claim itself, the UFO having long since departed.

To a "believer", however, there is no distinction between the words "claim" and "evidence". If somebody claims to have seen an alien space ship the "believer" simply asks "is this a reliable witness?", whereas the skeptic would ask "was what he saw an alien space ship?". The "believer", knowing full well that aliens exist and can visit the Earth, takes it for granted that a police officer, or fighter pilot, can recognize an alien space ship when he sees one.

But can he? Try asking somebody that claims to have seen an alien space ship, how he was able to determine that what he saw was (1) a space ship and (2) alien. A small minority will claim to have good reason to have drawn such a conclusion, for example, a conversation with the alien occupants, or a visit in the space ship to an alien planet. But the vast majority of claimants simply saw a light dancing in the night sky, and have no basis whatsoever for concluding that they saw an alien space ship. When questioned they will become defensive ("I know what I saw") or even mildly abusive ("you are closed-minded".)

It is unfortunate that the small minority that do get to meet aliens close-up never, ever, come away from the encounter with any tangible proof that it really happened. Even the "abductees" never manage to swipe so much as an alien ash tray from the interrogation room. It is the complete absence of physical evidence that perplexes skeptics - surely there ought to be something alien left lying about as proof of all these alien visitations?

But the "believers" can explain it easily, and tie everything up in a self-consistent bundle that encompasses everything in a manner that supports their belief. There is a world-wide conspiracy to conceal these alien visitations, operated by the aliens themselves or by a secret government, or both. Every scrap of physical evidence is immediately seized by the agents of this awful conspiracy (perhaps the sinister "Men in Black") wherever it may turn up around the globe. People with dangerous knowledge of this truth are intimidated into silence or made to disappear. Of course, the government denials of knowledge about any alien visitations (such as the recent congressional investigation into the Roswell incident) are simply a part of the cover-up and any evidence that turns up to weaken the cover-up theory is "disinformation".

A skeptic might well be excused for considering this idea to be a little paranoid and for objecting that it constitutes a non-falsifiable hypothesis, but once the "believer" has swallowed this magic pill then he is free to believe anything he wants. It does not help the skeptics that thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, proponents of the conspiracy theory now have access to documents that mention UFOs, written in a time during the cold war when paranoia about the "communist conspiracy" was very real in American politics and in the military. One must expect the American military to have taken a special interest in reports of unusual craft in the skies during the cold war period, be they real, misapprehended or imagined, but "believers" seize upon them as proof of a cover-up and of alien visitations, for there is no smoke without fire.

Ten million flies can't be wrong
At the heart of popular UFOlogy exist a few dedicated individuals. Some of them genuinely believe that aliens are visiting the Earth, based upon a personal experience. Some of them are cynically milking UFOlogy for what they can get out of it. But most "believers" are not like either one of these prototypes. They have simply read a number of books about UFOs, in which claims are presented as fact, and have reasoned that with so many books and magazines and TV shows about alien visitations and with 50% of Americans believing them, there must be something to it.

What harm does it do to believe such a thing? In the majority of cases, probably none. Personally, I don't see a real difference between somebody who writes about alien visitations and somebody who casts horoscopes or runs a "psychic hot line" as "entertainment for adults only". People really want to believe such things for some reason, and are willing to pay to be told what they want to hear. In the final analysis it does not really matter whether 50% of Americans believe in alien visitations or not. If we are not, as some of them think, on the brink of an alien invasion, and if our tax dollars are not being wasted on tin foil hats to keep out alien brain waves, then I see no harm in a bit of fun about little green men, or grays, or whatever.

Furthermore, the notion of a universe teeming with alien voyagers is downright entertaining, and has led to entire genres of art and literature that have been enjoyed by skeptics and believers alike.

There are a couple of exceptions that I would mention, however. The first is the practice of "recovering" memories of alien abductions by hypnosis. If these tortured souls are not really being abducted by aliens (and I note that not a single one has managed to prove it yet) then one has to question the methods and ethics of their hypnotists. One would have hoped that the practitioners of hypnosis themselves would have taken steps to regulate its use, especially in a society as litigious as the United States of America.

The second, and more obvious, case in which the claims of popular UFOlogy do actual harm to people is that of "UFO cults". Of course, UFOlogy is not the only religion to have led to a mass suicide, but unlike most religions UFOlogy claims to have a grounding in scientific research. In fact, there is much to criticize in what passes for "science" in popular UFOlogy, and the advocates of the notion that alien visitiations are supported by properly scientific evidence need to pay attention to what such exaggerated claims can lead to.
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Offline Carmel

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« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2004, 05:49:00 PM »
Anon..

I totally agree with everything you have mentioned.  I guess what I am trying to get across is that...although I may fall into your "believer" category....I tend to view even my own belief as you describe it as rather amusing but unfounded in and of itself....BECAUSE,

Although I believe in the idea of aliens and space travel and abductions and the whole shebang....I know that there is no sitution in our world or in our society that isnt untainted by the deception, exaggeration, falsification and miscommunication of the masses.  A few examples are a little more down to earth, such as religion, I beleive in God (somehwhat), but not  because anyone on this planet conviced me God existed.  People arent qualified to make that call.  But you have a whole slew of priests, pastors, monks, or otherwise swearing up and down and all around that they most certainly are qualified.  I try to keep it simple and see past the "hysteria" as you put it, and maintain the integrity of my belief for my own peace of mind.   I just cant beleive that a God so powerful as they say would be so short sighted so as to function in any way near how your average Christian claims he does.   I just know its beyond my comprehension, and I am more comfortable with that.  I dont know what God really is, but somewhere in all the mess and muck out there....little pieces of purity might very well shine through.  Same with UFOs , I am not going to claim anything isnt possible because as a human I am not qualified to do so.   But whatever is going on cant be all swamp gas and ball lightning.   Doesnt make it alien, but that remains to be seen.

I know, you are asking for evidence, I am only providing a perspective...but I think its important to have a belief along with your request.  Because if evidence ever did materialize...where would you stand, how would you determine that the evidence was sufficient??
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2004, 07:03:00 PM »
Carmel, that was my anon post above. i forgot to log on. To be fair, I must tell you I have more than a little experience debating this topic. It is a hobby of mine, debating things from a skeptical perspective.

I have no problem with someone like you that says "I believe but can't really explain my belief." I share a common trait with you on some issues. For example; life on other planets. I believe with no real evidence only because it seems likely to me. However, to profess it as fact is wrong and illogical.

Further, If I was to start FABRICATING evidence of life on other planets, lying, twisting, and forming a pseudo-religion around my belief, I would then resemble UFOlogists in my methodology.

That is what the "UFO community" has done. You apparently aren't a member of said loose community evidenced by your well thought out responses, so our only issue here is a difference of opinion. I love differences of opinon, they give us something to discuss.

Now, would somebody please post some evidence of Aliens? Pretty Please?
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2004, 07:19:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-05-25 14:49:00, Carmel wrote:

 Because if evidence ever did materialize...where would you stand, how would you determine that the evidence was sufficient??"


Carmel, a perponderance of the evidence would cause me to believe. Right now, the perponderance of evidence is sorely lacking, only conspiracy theories, magical thinking, and claims, not evidence.  I am interested in an analysis of the Mexican UFO, but you must find interesting, after reading my take, the fact that the original poster (you?) declared "WE ARE NOT ALONE" after posting that link, and declared "THIS IS OUR GOVERNMENT TALKING". It was actually a link to a news site, and the quotes from the goverment said no conclusions had been drawn yet. We also had people post that "thousands of people get abducted, the government is concealing this because they have the solution to energy problems, etc etc. All claims no evidence.

You see where I am going with this?
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Offline Carmel

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« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2004, 09:53:00 PM »
I agree 100 percent. Shouldnt be called fact. Buttons missing on keyboard so I will be brief. :roll:

Didnt make original post.

More later.
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Offline RTP2003

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« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2004, 01:50:00 PM »
Quote

They are no more evidence of aliens than they are of flying zombies


You mean you haven't seen the flying zombies?
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Offline RTP2003

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« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2004, 01:55:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-05-20 17:06:00, LeighBright wrote:

"RTP did you know that Scripture says that God's people are aliens to this world?



Seriously, it really says that!



And it also says that the believer's kingdom is a heavenly kingdom. And where is heaven, RTP?



Somewhere OUT THERE in SPACE!!!!!



I'm just messing with you, man. Don't get mad. We aren't here to hurt you, RTP. We only want to colonize your planet. :lol: "


Jesus is coming back at the helm of an alien battlecruiser and he is PISSED!  We must stop him!
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2004, 08:22:00 PM »
There used to be a  cartoon website that showed jesus sitting in an alien ship going around zapping people with an x ray.

funny shit 2003, now tell em how you really feel, sarcasm aside...
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2004, 03:17:00 PM »
And as those less inclined towards drawing immediate conclusions and accepting the superfantiscal at face value start to examine the EVIDENCE (in this case a film of lights in the sky by Mexian air force pilots), you start seeing that possibly, just possibly, we are alone....



CNN Transcript Of The Anderson Cooper Program
5-17-4
 
COOPER: Well the Mexican Air Force is releasing infrared video of unidentified flying objects surrounding a surveillance plane. There it is.
 
Some say the shapes appear to change direction. The pilots who saw these images could be heard yelling, quote, we are not alone?
 
So, what do you think, is this a close encounter from a UFO as some are claiming? Joining me now from Los Angeles is Michael Shermer, publisher of "Skeptic" magazine. Michael, thanks for being on the program. You have seen the videos. What do you think was really going on?
 
MICHAEL SHERMER, SKEPTIC MAGAZINE: Well, first of all, a couple interesting things about this clip is that you'll notice the symmetry of the image, the three dots are exactly parallel to each other on the right and then there they are on the left and the one on the far right matches the one on the far left. So that's an in lens, or in camera effect there. That isn't 6 objects, that's 3 being mirror imaged.
 
This is an infrared camera and, in fact, as I got the reports, the pilots didn't see that when they were up there. They saw it later. When they were shown the footage of the infrared camera. Of course, you are not looking at infrared when you're in the cockpit.
 
COOPER: So, you don't think it's something in the sky, you think it's something in the camera or in the plane?
 
SHERMER: I think there's probably something in the sky that's being duplicated. What that is probably a flare or a series of flares or possibly one of these pilotless drone planes that the military are using these days. And I think it's probably being duplicated that way and then being reported. It's hard to say, because the images are hardly blurry.
 
COOPER: I know you're a skeptic, you think this reminds you of this incident I think back in 1997 the famous Phoenix light incident. What happened there?
 
SHERMER: That's right. The Phoenix lights turned out to be a series of flares launched by the local Air Force base and there you go, they kind of seem to appear out of nowhere and hovered for quite a long time. And later it was determined that's what they were.
 
But to people at dusk and at night, it's really hard to tell how far away something is. How big it is, how fast it's moving or not moving. And so what happens when the mind is not clear, it fills in with its own imagination as to what is going on with size, movement, that sort of thing. Then these stories get exaggerated with the retelling.


My note:  The film does show three objects that are obviously repeated making six objects....
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