ALA policy

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-10 08:39:00, Anonymous wrote:


I'm sorry Ginger; I don't know what statement of mine your refering to.

The one suggesting that Paige doesn't know the truth about this girl she's known for the past dozen years and hadn't thought about what might happen after the "honeymoon" phase. That sanctimonious statement.

However; I believe I have consistaintly pointed out, we, none of us, know these folks well enough to judge. That includes you; as insightful as you are.



"

See above  :roll:

Do you support drug prohibition because it finances criminals at home or because it finances terrorists abroad?
--Anonymous

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-10 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

 They are there because of choices they have made.

They are there because their parents have paid to have them shipped there.

To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it

--G. Norman Collie

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-10 10:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

Pray for God's will to be done with the girl, not Paige's will to be done.  God our Father knows what is best, not Paige."

Who are you to speak for God in this manner? How do you know it's not God's will for Amanda to move in w/ her brother? Can you explain to me exactly how God went about telling you this?

Ardent advocates of prohibition were obsessed by a zeal that bordered on fanaticism. They supported politicians who voted to outlaw liquor, no matter how much of it they privately consumed, and spurned politicians who voted against prohibition, no matter how sober they were personally.
http://www.ncpoliticalreview.com/1101/Ervin/cohen.htm' target='_new'>Sen. Sam Ervin, Preserving The Constitution

[Anonymous]

Professional teen drug programs-- which actually tend to deal with more serious drug problems like cocaine and heroin injection, rather than the odd joint smokers and kids who annoy their parents that WWASP etc seem to admit-- allow kids to just walk out (though of course, they strongly try to discourage them first), then they call the cops.  

This means they never have restraint deaths or issues related to restraint.  Phoenix House and Daytop, which are the largest teen treatment programs in the US, both follow this policy and do not use restraint or recapture by amateurs or delivery by "escorts."

This has been a very successful policy and it allows those who are trained to deal with escapees to do so, rather than fellow patients or angry staffers with no training.

The notion that kids who are trying to leave a program are a danger to themselves or others is ridiculous:  this determination requires a judge and independent professionals to determine competency and cannot be made by those with a financial interest in keeping kids, many of whom have no psychiatric diagnosis at all, locked up.

Genuine programs require a diagnosis-- not just a questionaire that could diagnose any teen at one time or another before admission.  Genuine programs don't take the parents word for it that the kids are the problem who need to be sent away and the parents, if they need any help at all, only need help in subjugating them via harsh rules and threats of expulsion from the family.

Of course, even these programs have their problems with using overly harsh and confrontational therapies, but at least they are regulated to some extent and don't physically abuse kids as some kind of punishment.

[Cayo Hueso]

Why is it that these Christians always say we should leave it to God when they think someone is trying to interfere with their plans, but when it comes to them interfering....they're doing God's will.  I agree with Ginger, I'd like an answer as to how you know that God isn't working through Paige.  Ya know, he does work in mysterious ways. :lol:  :lol:

Unless we put medical freedom into the Constitution, the time will come when medicine will organize an undercover dictatorship. To restrict the art of healing to one class of men, and deny equal privilege to others, will be to constitute the Bastille of medical science. All such laws are un-American and despotic, and have no place in a Republic. The Constitution of this Republic should make special privilege for medical freedom as well as religious freedom.
--Abridged quote-Benjamin Rush, M.D., a signer of the Declaration of Independence

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-10 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

The prisons are full of individuals who were never shown tough love.

This is a commonly held misconception. One of the heartaches of having gone through a program is that, half the time, when you track down someone you knew back then, you find them in a department of corrections database.

The prisons are full of people who's parents belonged to a toughlove hategroup.

It is wrong to leave a stumbling stone in the road after it has tripped you.
http://fornits.com/wwf/bb_profile.php?mode=view&user=1005' target='_new'>Hands Out Light

[Antigen]

Cayohueso, I'm not being the least bit snide here. I was just out looking at the sky and thinking about this very exchange. And it reminded me of the day I decided against becoming a formal member of my church.

I'd taken the ... can't remember the term, but it's Presbyterian for Catechism (lol!) And I just couldn't get past the requirement that I swear in God's name that I believe in the litteral death of Jesus and that that belief was the only way to Heaven. I just don't think the God I thought I knew was so petty or cruel to condemn someone to Hell just cause their parents taught them to call him Alla or Budah or whatever.

I think that may have been the thing that convinced my mom that I'd lost my mind and needed to be saved if it killed me. But Pastor Taws understood perfectly. He told me he couldn't explain it, but that it wouldn't be honorable to swear an oath that I didn't believe and reminded me that membership wasn't a pre-requisite for any church activities.

That's the difference. Pastor Taws was just a good guy who'd been a missionary, raised some kids and was cruising comfortably toward retirement as a teacher, pastor and all-round nice guy. My mother, otoh, was a fanatic. She believed she was privy to devine knowledge about my impending demise and that her mission to save me trumped everything from common sense to federal law.

I could be wrong, but that sure looks like the story we're hearing here too.
 

Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following
pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them
general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong,
gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises
at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom.  But the
tumult soon subsides.  Time makes more converts than reason.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0679433147/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Thomas Paine, Common Sense

[Anonymous]

Paige, the problem with a situation like yours is its impossible for anyone on the outside to know who's telling the truth.
You might be; and you might not. No body involved with this conversation has any way of knowing, except you.
And about Unconditional Love; I am very familiar with this, believe me. You might actually mean it and be capable of it; but in my experience the average person just isn't. Its like a nice idea - but not actually obtainable. Well, I don't mean that exactly - the love may last irregardless of the circumstances; but living with the Loved one can become impossible with out conditions.

As I  alluded to; I have had up close and personal experience with just such a situation. It was a disaster, b/c the grand ma in this case wasn't able to tolerate the conditions of living with the grand daughter when it came down to it. And she had had Plenty of warning of how hard ad challenging it was going to be. She had stars in her eyes and was sure all that was required was Unconditional love which she was sure she could provide. She was way wrong; and it seriously aggravate the already hyped up abandonment issues; caused a lot of extra pain, anger, stress and grief for everybody; and deprived the girl of much needed social services. Nightmare barely gives an idea of how awful it was b/c this grand Ma wouldn't admit her limitations upfront; and refused to face the reality of her grand daughter's situation.
Experience has taught me this is the rule; not the exception in such situations.  This is why I'm concerned.
I am not saying this will absolutely be the way it goes for you if Amanda move in with you upon reaching the age of majority - but its a risk you may not have thought threw. That is ALL I'm asking you to do.
You write: "Karen, why is it so hard for you to believe that someone would be so willing to take this child?"
Its not - not at all. And it might be a great thing. I don't know. What concerns me is you might not know either.
Cayo writes: "I agree with Ginger, I'd like an answer as to how you know that God isn't working through Paige. Ya know, he does work in mysterious ways"
I don't know, and you have a point.
I actually take great comfort in this on many occassions.  I may judge wrongly. God never does.
Ginger has her jab at me: " The one suggesting that Paige doesn't know the truth about this girl she's known for the past dozen years and hadn't thought about what might happen after the "honeymoon" phase. That sanctimonious statement. "
Ginger, I didn't say that.  I do not know how well Paige knows Amanda. I have no idea. I do know, there is always a "honey moon" phase were everything is roses (or apples as the Aussies say) and then things change. How they change will naturally varry. Paige needs to get her eyes wide open before going forward.

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-10 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

Paige, the problem with a situation like yours is its impossible for anyone on the outside to know who's telling the truth.

That's because the folks at ALA won't allow the kid to talk to anyone outside the cult.

you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown

[Anonymous]

Ginger writes:
"I'd taken the ... can't remember the term, but it's Presbyterian for Catechism (lol!) And I just couldn't get past the requirement that I swear in God's name that I believe in the litteral death of Jesus and that that belief was the only way to Heaven."

We have similar stories. I wouldn't join the Presbyterian church I grew up in b/c the Pastor didn't believe basic Christain doctrin.
Whats the point of joining a 'church' that has abandoned Christain doctrin, was my thinking.

[Antigen]

On 2004-04-10 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

Ginger, I didn't say that. I do not know how well Paige knows Amanda. I have no idea. I do know, there is always a "honey moon" phase were everything is roses (or apples as the Aussies say) and then things change. How they change will naturally varry. Paige needs to get her eyes wide open before going forward

The difference, Karen, is that you've probably never met the kid or the parents or the extended family while Paige has been this kid's family since she was, what, 7 years old?

Didn't your mother ever explain to you that it's rude to give unsolicited advice to strangers, especially advice regarding their very personal lives?

Who at ALA thinks they know more about this family than the family does?

Oh well, Paige, I hope you've gotten a good enough answer to your questions so that you can explain to the judge what's going on. I hope you get a favorable ruliing and a speedy reunion. If you need to verify information posted here, please feel free to have your lawyer contact me.

for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.    
--Alexander Hamilton

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-10 19:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

 Paige needs to get her eyes wide open before going forward. "

OK, Paiges eyes have been WIDE open for quite some time now so drop it already.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-10 19:23:00, Antigen wrote:




Oh well, Paige, I hope you've gotten a good enough answer to your questions so that you can explain to the judge what's going on. I hope you get a favorable ruliing and a speedy reunion. If you need to verify information posted here, please feel free to have your lawyer contact me.

Ginger,  thank you so very much for your help and your input. I would like to thank all of you for information and opinions that you have contributed and I would like to thank Butcher and Turd for not being offensive. I appreciate it. I will be signing off. We have received some very valid and helpful information. The family will be meeting in the next few days and will be proceeding with our plans to file a custody suit and other suits that I will not name on this site because I am sure that Karen is telling the parents.
(No offense Karen)The filing date will be at a future date at the advice of our attorney.

Ginger, thanks for offering the verification it may come in handy. Keep up the good work and best wishes to all of you. I will let you all now the outcome. Of course court battles can be somewhat lengthy but I will log back on when the results are in.

Best Wishes to all of you.


PS. Karen you were being "taped" but this type  has witnesses and can be verified. God love you. Thanks for all of your help.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-04-10 17:15:00, Antigen wrote:

"

On 2004-04-10 10:20:00, Anonymous wrote:


 They are there because of choices they have made.

They are there because their parents have paid to have them shipped there.

To make certain that crime does not pay, the government should take it
over and try to run it

--G. Norman Collie

"

They are there as a result of their choices. It is cause and effect.  If you run out in front of a car, you will get hit.  The girl is there, a direct result of bad choices she has made.  We are so blessed to live in a country where we are all allowed to have our own opinions.  Just because it is your opinion, does not make it true.  Have you personally been there?  Do you personally have a relative who has been there?  If not, then your in put is just that, your input.  Not the facts.

[Anonymous]

Ginger, you are misinformed if you think Paige is "family."
She is not related to the student in question in any way. She is a close aquaintence.
She adopted a little boy and h is her son.
Another family adopted the little girl, and she is their daughter. Paige's son is related to Amanda; but Paige isn't.

Paige, I haven't spoken with Amanda's parents since the day the girls took off. I don't expect to, tho it is possible.

It is also possible they are reading this Forum as well, isn't it?

Don't you think they have a pretty good idea what you all about with out any help from me?

I do hope you folks can get things worked out; and I hope you'll have sence enough to tred lightly on the young lives you may otherwise trample under foot as you do battle.