Author Topic: People who are against the Teen Help Industry - Real Hatemon  (Read 11104 times)

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Offline Word of Wisdom

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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2004, 11:55:00 AM »
Dear Ginger.

Corrections.  You may be older but somehow you have managed to not grow up.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2004, 11:55:00 AM »
Hate can be healthy.

I hate the misnamed "teen help industry" because I love freedom and the rights of children. Do some homework and you will see many sources reporting on rampant abuses coming from this travesty and understand that the people here have first hand knowledge and years of clarity on the subject.

I hate ignorance because I covet knowledge. Read a book or two and gain some real wisdom because so far you aren't showing much here.

I hate abuse because I am a childhood survivor of it, in several ways, not just in abusive treatment. Open your mind to what it is like to be 14 and locked in thought reform before you vomit your ignorant swill around this website.

I hate religious idiots who hide behind Jesus's skirt to justify their cruelty because huge and vast evils against humanity are commited in the name of religion, more so in fact than for all other causes combined. Get your head out of the sand and out of the dark ages before you hurt someone or yourself. You want to Debate religion?...any time any place.

Your initial post here is idiotic. Most people rallying against the teen help industry are doing so out of love and hate. Hate for evil and injustice, and love of freedom and humanity.

I think you stumbled into the wrong place, or your post was just meant to incite.  Either way, get lost....
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2004, 12:07:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-03-28 20:49:00, Word of Wisdom wrote:

"I told you... that is two hate mongers in just a few minutes after I posted my little experiment.  I knew that I was right, but it is still shocking to see it become a reality.  Keep it up!  This time next week we shall see just what kind of people hate those who work with teens. Even though they read that this thread is an experiment they cant help themselves, as they just have to write their hate (even though they might classify/define it to be disapproval)."


You remind me of a street preacher "Brother Jim" who would X people out and accuse all the young men of "masturbation" for directing their (ahem) organ while urinating to do so neatly and in the normal male fashion in normal mens' rooms.

By redefining "masturbation" in much the same way you have redefined "hate," he could accuse virtually every male of that act.

You've essentially redefined "hate" to be disagreement with your position and "hatemongers" to be anyone who disagrees with you.

You know, my family used to play a game on long car trips where we'd take the letters in license tags and try to form words that included those letters in that order, where the person with the shortest word won.

My mom looked at one, we'll say BCC for the sake of argument and said, "Back, if you don't care about spelling."  My reply was, "Cat, if you don't care about spelling."

The point was that once you throw out the rules of spelling in the game, *any* three-letter word wins---because the rules of spelling were crucial to defining the game.

Once you throw out the conventional English-language definitions of the words "hate" and "hatemonger" in calling people a name or accusing them of a vice (this holds true of accusing people of *any* vice), you can accuse anyone of anything.

You've fallen down the rabbit hole into the wonderland, with the Mad Hatter, the Queen of Hearts, and Alice---essentially, you're asserting, "When I use a word, it means just what I want it to mean, no more and no less."

Unfortunately for you, that logically fallacious debate strategy only works when you're debating people stupid enough to let you get away with it instead of calling your illogic what it is.

Are you so used to only associating with and matching wits with stupid people that you're actually used to getting away with that sort of sophistry?

And you call yourself a "social scientist"?

I don't "hate" you, sir.  But I don't respect your mind or your ability to formulate a logical argument to advance your position, and since that ability is ordinarily a prerequisite for becoming a social scientist, my initial impression is that you're not only a poor debater but also untruthful.

For the sake of clarity, if you haven't either earned a PhD in one of the social sciences from an accredited post-secondary institution *or* published an original piece of scientific research in a peer-reviewed journal of one of the social sciences, you are *not* a social scientist.

You may be an amateur with an interest in the social sciences, but to be a "scientist" you have to do original, rigorous research that adds worthwhile discoveries to the body of scientific knowledge in  your field.  Either having a dissertation approved by fellow scientists, or publishing in a peer-reviewed journal, meets those basic criteria.

For the sake of argument, Webster's 1913 defines "hate" in the following way:

1. To have a great aversion to, with a strong desire that evil should befall the person toward whom the feeling is directed; to dislike intensely; to detest; as, to hate one's enemies; to hate hypocrisy.

---------------------

I don't have a great aversion to you or wish you ill, I just don't have any respect for your intellectual prowess or your truthfulness (or, more precisely, your probable lack thereof).

You aren't significant enough to my life to arouse any emotional intensity even remotely approaching hate.
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Offline The Butcher

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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2004, 12:14:00 PM »
Singled out the kids who are mean to me
Get straight A's but they still make fun
I don't give a ____, I'll laugh last

Stayed in every night
Do my homework so I'll be smart
Girls all say I'm a little fucked

Mommy I'm a good boy
Mommy I'm a fuckin' savior
Mommy I'm alive

Rip the veins from human necks
Until they're wet with life
Razor-blades love teenage flesh
An epidermoty
I'll bring back a souvenir
For it's my mommy's dream

Can I go out and kill tonight, kill tonight

Killed a girl on lovers' lane
I kept her toes and teeth
Every night I stalk around until I find my keep
I'll bring back a souvenir
For it's my mommy's dream

Can I go out and kill tonight, kill tonight

Killed a girl on lovers lane
I kept her toes and teeth
Every night I stalk around until I find my keep
I'll bring back a souvenir
For it's my mommy's dream

Can I go out and kill tonight, kill tonight
Kill tonight, kill tonight, kill tonight, kill tonight
Kill tonight, kill tonight

Can I go out and kill tonight, kill tonight
Kill tonight, kill tonight, kill tonight, kill tonight
Kill tonight, kill tonight
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2004, 12:20:00 PM »
I've noticed that there's a certain subset of people who claim to be Christians who, rather than focusing on visiting the sick, or studying their Bibles, or helping charities like the Red Cross, or volunteering in soup kitchens, or feeding and clothing the poor, or being kind one to another, spend a large amount of their time and energy in trying to be obnoxious to non-Christians to try to elicit a negative response from them, so they can feel they're being "persecuted" for their faith.

Basically, the habit of trolling for flames was old long before the advent of the Internet.

The person who started this thread is trolling for flames, so he can feel "persecuted" for his professed Christian faith---which relieves him of any responsibility to actually go out and do good deeds.  

Annoying people so he can feel persecuted when they react to his provocation is easier and cheaper than actually living a Christian life.

He's addicted to that feeling of being persecuted for his faith.

Please don't give this persecution-addict his fix.

If he doesn't get his fix here, he'll be more annoying in the short run trying to get that fix, but eventually he'll go away someplace where he finds an easier source.

Please let him.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2004, 12:44:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-03-29 08:53:00, Word of Wisdom wrote:

Thank you for proving my point.  You have done an excellent job in helping parents to decide to send their son or daughter to a program.  No parent wants their child to turn out like you.  


Uh, Craig? The Butcher is a Program graduate.

The only voluntary urine sample they'll get from me is a taste test
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Offline The Butcher

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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2004, 01:02:00 PM »
Mooo-hoo-ha-ha-ha!!!

Oh, GOD forgive me for wanting to brutally MURDER this TURD of WisDUMB.  :skull:
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2004, 01:02:00 PM »
I dunno. I have quite a bit of faith in people to reach reasonable conclusions if given all the info. It's fairly obvious that Craig is 1) baiting and 2) changing the subject.

After all that, Craig, would you please answer a question for me?

Is it true that you never accept/hold students against their will or is it true that you don't force anything down their throats? One or the other, please.

The clearest way into the Universe is through a forest wilderness.
-- John Muir

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2004, 01:11:00 PM »
Well, that's it. I am not sending my child to any christian fundamentalist program that torments them into accepting Jesus as their savior. Nor will I send my child into the wilderness for a $20,000 wake up call when it would be just as effective and considerably less expensive to take the entire family to some remote outpost where we can sit around the campfire and talk about our issues after a hard day of hiking through the badlands of Utah. These therapeutic boarding schools I hear so much about are reserved for kids with a diagnosable mental illness and parents who can afford to keep them under lock and key under the guise of treatment. The same appears to be true of the rudimentary behavior modification programs which I don't believe any parent in their right mind would consider a viable option.

So thanks, Words of Wisdom. My teen may be a pain in the rear but you have convinced me to throw away the brochures, videos and dozens of emails I have received from these so-called teen helpers and to inform the educational consultant referred to me by a parent I met on the Internet, I won't be needing their services (sic) either.

What I will do is invite my 17 year old son to visit this forum and read the propaganda from both sides of the controversy surrounding the teen help industry. If he has any brains at all, he will quickly realize what I have come to understand about the industry and the kind of people who make a living *helping* troubled teens. They are predators of the worst kind and no matter how concerned a parent is about their child's attitude and behavior, keeping them a safe distance from these vultures is a step in the right direction.
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Offline Troubled Turd

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« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2004, 01:13:00 PM »
In the beginning there was the TURD. And the turd shall set you free. Free from the risk of growing up without "help" from a behavior-modification facility. Praise Jesus!
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Offline Antibody?

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« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2004, 02:10:00 PM »
?Proud to be an American.? Proud to indoctonate Christianity into kids before they can think for themselves. Tyrants, Idiots!!!)  

Why does the government pay these crazy people and house them? Well, I suppose they are paid to keep them from living in your garage, backyard, or to prevent them from staling from you. That is why, and, most ?welfare? is corporate welfare ? but it is easier to pick on the weak, sick and the mentally ill instead, isn?t it.

Open your eyes people. When a human being can?t get acceptance and love from anyone, when there is no altruism and, nobody even talks to you then you act out. Why? Because society has left ypu  out for being different, left you out to die of loneliness, pushed them aside and, you don?t understand why they have the right to live next to you, christian or not. Trade places with them. You would act out too. Most of the money goes to the military, not to welfare and I?m sure you support war. That?s more humane than welfare? Less humane then boarding schools ? maybe? You moron.

Six trillion of debt is what we rich parents are passing on to our kids and grand-kids - to purchase our temporary prosperity. Yes, it all "trickles down" to that. We, however, never admit we are selling our kids, grandkids, the sick, our elders, our vets, the mentally ill and the developmentally disabled for our own temporary comfort ? do we? Nah, because they inconvenience us. How dare they live next to US?  How dare them inconvenience you with their, so called, right to exist? Send them off to be saved. You moron.

You all say our "value" is ?family and freedom,? You say that we are "Proud to be Americans," but the truth is, for all who know true history (not what those propaganda textbooks said in the 50s and 60s), we don't give a hoot about freedom or liberty unless it is ours alone and it includes money. We think capitalism is a word that means Democracy. Capitalism is exactly what it says ?capital? (money) ?ism? (belief in). Democracy is equality and liberty ? Really, It is...

Yes, democracy would be great, but it does not exist. It never existed. A perverted form of imposed Christianity exists - yours. "I am one of those wierd christians who believes people like you who are without sin should cast the first stone." We abound in silence, and we know what you really are. As George Carlin put it "yeah, this country was founded by slave owners that wanted to be free." What kind of democracy, hordes and wages war while innocent children are imprisoned and beaten? ??um US?? Yeah, you idiot.

And, we are ?Proud to be Americans.?  Well then, we must also be ?Proud to be citizens of the most hated country on earth,? Proud to be the most violent society on earth.? ?Proud that people hate us because we are greed-infatuated tyrants with smart bombs and a dumb president.? Sorry, but I admire Canada, Costa Rica, New Zealand and several others that are smart enough not to threaten anybody. There is nothing to gain by bombing them. They don?t need to spend half their gross domestic product on bombs and wars. They spend it to bring people up instead of tearing them down. (Yes I am going to move there ? so don?t ask). We say, ?Oh, it?s the terrorists.?

Look, we created those terrorists with our financial support. Then, after having them fighting our war with Russia for us, we abandoned them. Now they hate us. And why would they not hate us? We have everything, and, they have nothing. We use them to fight our wars for resources - while we suck their oil. Then we ask them to give up their beliefs and culture for "democracy" and industry - "US industry." And, if they refuse, we "save them" with smart bombs and "Imposed Democracy" We are so "Christian"

?Capitalism.? ?Duh that is right, Joe.? ?Duh, each bomb tells them how to vote, duh, right Joe?? And people write letters to the editor. ?Why do we have so much depression?? Why does the government pay for welfare and housing for my demented psycho neighbor? Why are people agains indoctanating children into Christianity with imprisonment, torture, and beatings?  We'll we did it to the Native Americans and maybe stealing their culture, beliefs and turning them to booze was the Christian thing to do after all.

Well, We are a "Christian nation" arent we? You fundamentalists are not my idea of Christians. Rather, it looks to me like, one head of "the (metaphorical) beast" was cut off in New York. Looking for the antichrist are you? ? Well, ?My Fundamentalist Fellow Americans.? Then ?look in the mirror."
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Offline Troubled Turd

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« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2004, 02:36:00 PM »
You obviously don't comprehend the need for a solid cohesion of church and state.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2004, 03:08:00 PM »
ha ha ha ha ha ha "good one turd." bait em again baby.

Hey, Anybody who wants to vomit repaetedly can go to this site. http://www.gjrinpa.org/

Ginger shared it with me a while back. These are the assholes the want to have church and state joined in the fuck of a lifetime.

They have "Words of Wisdom" blaaaahhhhhuummph.

That's right - ladies and gentlemen, Introducing "George Junior Academy" - He just happens to have the same name as the president. You know, the guy with Cheny's dick in his mouth and his right hand up the crotch of Lady Enron and with his left is banging Jerry Fallwell's mother fundamantalist church.

But, hey, I'm not political or anything like that - pppppphhhhh.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2004, 03:19:00 PM »
Religous nuts frequently say that our "founding fathers" supported Christianity exclusively and that we are a "christian nation." BULLSHIT
Check out this site Quoting them en masse.

[Quote)
Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363)

Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

No man complains of his neighbor for ill management of his affairs, for an error in sowing his land, or marrying his daughter, for consuming his substance in taverns ... in all these he has liberty; but if he does not frequent the church, or then conform in ceremonies, there is an immediate uproar. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 364.)

In the Notes [on the State of Virginia] Jefferson elaborated his views on government's keeping its distance from all religious affairs and religious opinions. "The legitimate powers of government," he wrote, "extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, pp. 42-43. )

Life is of no value but as it brings us gratifications. Among the most valuable of these is rational society. It informs the mind, sweetens the temper, cheers our spirits, and promotes health. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, February 20, 1784. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 305.)

[W]e have solved by fair experiment the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 16, 1786, according to Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 47.)

... shake off all the fears of servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first the religion of your own country. Read the bible then, as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature does not weigh against them. But those facts in the bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from god. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong as that it's [sic] falshood [sic] would be more improbable than a change of the laws of nature in the case he relates.... Do not be frightened from this enquiry by any fear of it's [sic] consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in it's [sic] exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a god, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement. If that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a god, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat that you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject any thing because any other person, or description of persons have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness but uprightness of the decision.... (Thomas Jefferson, letter to his young nephew Peter Carr, August 10, 1787. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, pp. 320-321.)

I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 499.)

To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Green Mumford, June 18, 1799. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 341.)

"I know," Jefferson had written, ... "that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his [George Washington's] secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system [Christianity] than he himself did." (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 85. Jefferson's comments were written in his journal, Anas, in February, 1800, according to Boller, p. 80.)
Quote
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2004, 03:23:00 PM »
This is the one I dig. Hi Ginger.

Quote
On 2004-03-29 12:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Religous nuts frequently say that our "founding fathers" supported Christianity exclusively and that we are a "christian nation." BULLSHIT

Check out this site Quoting them en masse.



Quote

Subject opinion to coercion: whom will you make your inquisitors? Fallible men; men governed by bad passions, by private as well as public reasons. And why subject it to coercion? To produce uniformity. But is uniformity of opinion desirable? No more than of face and stature. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363)



Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)



No man complains of his neighbor for ill management of his affairs, for an error in sowing his land, or marrying his daughter, for consuming his substance in taverns ... in all these he has liberty; but if he does not frequent the church, or then conform in ceremonies, there is an immediate uproar. (Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 364.)



In the Notes [on the State of Virginia] Jefferson elaborated his views on government's keeping its distance from all religious affairs and religious opinions. "The legitimate powers of government," he wrote, "extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, pp. 42-43. )



Life is of no value but as it brings us gratifications. Among the most valuable of these is rational society. It informs the mind, sweetens the temper, cheers our spirits, and promotes health. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, February 20, 1784. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 305.)



[W]e have solved by fair experiment the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to James Madison, December 16, 1786, according to Albert Menendez and Edd Doerr, compilers, The Great Quotations on Religious Liberty, Long Beach, CA: Centerline Press, 1991, p. 47.)



... shake off all the fears of servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. You will naturally examine first the religion of your own country. Read the bible then, as you would read Livy or Tacitus. The testimony of the writer weighs in their favor in one scale, and their not being against the laws of nature does not weigh against them. But those facts in the bible which contradict the laws of nature, must be examined with more care, and under a variety of faces. Here you must recur to the pretensions of the writer to inspiration from god. Examine upon what evidence his pretensions are founded, and whether that evidence is so strong as that it's [sic] falshood [sic] would be more improbable than a change of the laws of nature in the case he relates.... Do not be frightened from this enquiry by any fear of it's [sic] consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in it's [sic] exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a god, a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement. If that there be a future state, the hope of a happy existence in that increases the appetite to deserve it; if that Jesus was also a god, you will be comforted by a belief of his aid and love. In fine, I repeat that you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject any thing because any other person, or description of persons have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness but uprightness of the decision.... (Thomas Jefferson, letter to his young nephew Peter Carr, August 10, 1787. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, pp. 320-321.)



I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, January 26, 1799. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 499.)



To preserve the freedom of the human mind then and freedom of the press, every spirit should be ready to devote itself to martyrdom; for as long as we may think as we will, and speak as we think, the condition of man will proceed in improvement. (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Green Mumford, June 18, 1799. From Adrienne Koch, ed., The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society, New York: George Braziller, 1965, p. 341.)



"I know," Jefferson had written, ... "that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his [George Washington's] secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system [Christianity] than he himself did." (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 85. Jefferson's comments were written in his journal, Anas, in February, 1800, according to Boller, p. 80.)


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