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[Deborah]

Carey wrote:
Deborah I did not know you were so in the know on what my concerns are. Nor did I think you cared. But just so you can be "in the know" on whether or not I am concerned about what "WWASPS said or didn't say," well I am. I am concerned to the point of knowing what the truth really is. Hey, you learn something new every day, don't ya Deborah? I guess you and I just learned that YOU don't know everything there is to know.***

Carey, just so you KNOW the truth, let me clue you in- You are confused. I didn't make the comment you responded to, an Anon did.

I resent your assinine comment that "you are open to the truth" and I and a few other aren't.  :roll:

I didn't read that anyone felt the counselor "deserved to die". It appears to be a unfortunate consequence of the hotbed created in BM facilities. It was bound to happen eventually, and could likely happen again. When you provoke someone beyond their breaking point and don't have adequate "controls" in place to suppress their potential violent reasctions to the blatant disrespect associated with BM techniques, you have a situation in which this could happen.
That's why prison have guards who tote guns.

And, so you're not confused by that comment; I'm not suggesting that staff tote guns. I do wonder why the sports equipment wasn't locked away? I wonder if the knives in the kitchen were secured?
I can guarentee that if I worked in a house full of unjustly incarcerated young males, and was required to provoke them to anger, I'd be damn sure they didn't have access to anything that could be used as a weapon. Is this not common sense?

These boys had just learned that they were going to be detained longer than expected- very common in programs. Did the ones in charge think they would be happy about that decision? Might some extra "contols", supervision, counseling, been called for until they adjusted?

We're coming up on the anniversary of Aaron Bacon's murder at Northstar. I damn sure wish he'd taken a bat to the idiots who denied him medical care.
http://courtlink.utcourts.gov/opinions/ ... r12_98.htm

I wish Ian August had taken a bat to the counselor/EMT who made him sit in the sun while he slowly died of heat exhaustion.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=662&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2802&forum=9
Skyline Violations of Regs
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... 9&start=20

You think either of these boys would have been charged with  murder if they had been wise enough to know they were dying and taken action to protect their lives, even if it meant taking the counselor's life? Or would it have been perceived as self defense?

Not suggesting that the boys at MLS lives were in jeopardy, but we really don't know. They obviously perceived a threat great enough to act; whether that's rational or not.

[Deborah]

***Bottom line, these are troubled teens, are they not? To suddenly expect (demand) that they be tried as adults is preposterous.***

They were not given the "rights of an adult" when they were unjustly incarcerated and stripped of their rights.
But they will be tried as adults?
Can we say double-standard,incongruent?

[Anonymous]

You think either of these boys would have been charged with murder if they had been wise enough to know they were dying and taken action to protect their lives, even if it meant taking the counselor's life? Or would it have been perceived as self defense?

YOU sure are assuming you know what has happened.

Not suggesting that the boys at MLS lives were in jeopardy, but we really don't know. They obviously perceived a threat great enough to act; whether that's rational or not.

Once again, you are assuming you know what was happening.  How do you know they obviously perceived a threat great enough to act?  How can you state that as a fact?  YOU do not know that.  All you know is what you read.  And what you read is not written by any witnesses who were there.

***Carey, let me clue you in here: DHS has revoked this program's license. Among the 3 violations cited, DHS alleges the program did not do a background check on the counselor. As a parent, I would think this would greatly concern you, not whether WWASPS said or didn't say something***

YOU did not write that?  Then why is your name next to the post?  It is posted by Deborah (from Texas).

[Carey]

that was me.

[tommyfromhyde1]

You think either of these boys would have been charged with  murder if they had been wise enough to know they were dying and taken action to protect their lives, even if it meant taking the counselor's life? Or would it have been perceived as self defense?

    Sadly, I think they would have been. It would
have been too easy for a drug crusading DA to
portray the staff as giving them the "help that
they need" and to pooh-pooh the testimony about
abuse as coming from disgruntled "druggies" who
just want to go back to their "druggie" ways

The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry

[Anonymous]

The teenagers in our disintegrating society who have been thrown into the disfuntional system of group homes, behavioral schools, and psych units are dangerous.  They are too young to understand that life can get any better than the hell that their life has become.  

The world has become a scary place of twisted values and uncertainty.  It is no wonder so many young people choose drugs.  And when you take those drugs away, watch out!  You're taking away the one thing that never fails them.  They have nothing to lose by turning on the society that has failed them.  Call them terrorists and have George Bush dump a billion dollars into fighting it here in this country.

I do not advocate violence.  I do see the writing on the wall.  Until our society provides our children with hope for a future, we can simply expect these frightened, caged, young individuals to rise up at any cost.

So, how do we deal with the wild animals we created?  We don't protect them from the consequences of their behavior #1.  That creates more problems.  Besides, the fore runners of any good revolution are always severely consequenced.  

I understand why these boys did what they did to that man, and it has nothing to do with that man.  They should be punished to the fullest extent of the law if they are guilty, but our society needs to wake up!  We have been anesthsized with homes and cars and cheap goods and more cars, so a few people can get wealthy beyond our wildest dreams at the expence of real values.  The real values are spending time with our children - all of them.  The real values are also spending time in the present enjoying our freinds and family.  The real value is time, but we give it away, so we can have the biggest, newest techno-gadget they come up with or that 100th pair of shoes.  We will be grinding away for the rest of our lives like slaves paying for all this cheap crap while our children die from the inside out because children extinctually know what real values are.  

I, for one, am stepping off this treadmill going nowhere.  I am a contrarian at heart, so it's not so hard.  However, I know that the masses will not change unless they have to.  Do you realize how ugly thing will have to get before the masses will stop?  It's going to be ugly, but that is where we're going.

The Contrarian

[Anonymous]

Update:

Cedar City Mayor and several council members complain that Cedar City has become "a dumping ground" for youth group homes.  A public hearing was held today to address community concerns, one of which is reportedly there are 16 such facilities in the community of Cedar City. Also, a district representative has said he would consider sponsoring a legislative bill "to better control the facilities".  

http://www.teenadvocatesusa.homestead.c ... Ahome.html

[warriorprincess]

:wstupid:
quote:
However, I know that the masses will not change unless they have to. Do you realize how ugly thing will have to get before the masses will stop? It's going to be ugly, but that is where we're going.

It took the death of the counselor AND people to disapprove of 16 such homes in their community and demand regulation.  (community uniting, what a concept!)  
sure hits home when they describe the counselor's physical features.  They are not going to be forgiven for that.  
there was a man who murdered but also sexually assaulted a young man (teenager).  after 4 years in IL he got out and moved to Michigan.  A mother of a teenager was outraged.  He was not on the sex offender registery, he had MURDERED someone.  4 years.  of his life in exchange for the life of someone's son.  HOW BOGUS.  BUT, these young men.  They are in the media.  There will (already is) a FRENZY.  They are toast now.
Will they be made an example?  
I think the people on this forum know that there are "counselors" who are just as cruel as the 2 kids that killed the counselor.

[warriorprincess]

The media will affect the outcome. will it affect it for the good or bad?  who knows.

[Deborah]

Carey,
I know as much as any other person who followed the stories of Aaron Bacon and Ian August and more than the average. Ian was my neighbor.

No one knows exactly what happened except those who witnessed it, but some god aweful information came out in the court testimony in both cases while people were under oath. Did you read the links I provided? If you had you might know a little more. Read their stories and see if you formulate any opinions. While you are reading about their murders, ask yourself what you would want your son to do in a similar situation, to protect his life.

You asked, How do you know they obviously perceived a threat great enough to act?  How can you state that as a fact?

Because that is my belief. That rational and reasonable people (in their right mind) don't kill other people. Period. It doesn't matter to me if it's premeditated murder or spur of the moment.  The person was not in their right mind. I don't and never will believe that people are born malicious killers.

Carey, take a deep breath, slow down, focus, and read page 7 of this thread. Scroll very slowly and notice who first posted that comment. It weren't me. I only responded to it, appropriately I might add.  :grin:

[Anonymous]

why is Carey posting anonymously after screaming at other people for doing the same?

[Anonymous]

I realize my post comes out of left field not knowing the boys, the man, the school, or any facts for that matter.   My post was meant to be generic, and I stand by what I said.  I know how hard it is to look at these issues uemotionally.  I don't think I could if I knew any of these people personally; however,it's very, very important that we focus on what we are dealing with.  Are these horrible boarding schools the biggest waste of people's valuable resources? YES!  Is it possible that these boys were justified in killing this man? Maybe.  The point is what do we do with all of these teenagers who have no where to go?   I wouldn't want most of them in my home.  I know what I am talking about.  I worked at the most despicable boarding school in the country. I would like to think we could re-educate the parents to deal with them at home, but call me the biggest sceptic in world.  I don't think that's going to happen.  I believe that it will take a complete break down of our society for people to wake  up and realize that our non-value based society is killing our kids.

The Contrarian

[Anonymous]

I vote try them as adults and give them the death penalty if found guilty. By the way,I heard the firing squad is no longer an option in Utah as of today. Too bad.
For all of you who don't agree, why don't you volunteer to take them to your house.  After all, the poor little guys have probably been misunderstood their whole lives.  

The unfortunately loosers here are the parents and the family of the counselor.

[Deborah]

Or perhaps you might like to see them sentenced to the military, front line. They could direct their rage at innocent civilians half-way around the world who pose no threat to you or I, AND THEIR KILLING WOULD BE REWARDED !!

Has the threat of incarceration, loss of rights, death penalty been successful at detering acts of violence, or greed? I don't see that it has. Daniel Quinn, "Cultural Mantra: If it doesn't work, do it more."

If these boys are sentenced to prison or killed, how will that improve your life personally, anon? How will that make this country- the most violent on the planet- a better place? What do you perceive to be at stake for yourself, other than the need for retaliation?

I didn't know we were taking a poll, but I vote that you have a lobotomy. Your mind is diseased, probably beyond repair. I think the country would be a better place if people like yourself would voluntarily suppressed their out-of-control fear (manifesting as arrogance, anger, and a need for 'sanctioned' violence) whether chemically, surgically- whatever works to help you find some peace. I hear they have some drugs that are excellent for this purpose if you're opposed to the violence of ECT or lobotomy.

Short of that, you might benefit from some long-term counseling with a hard-line counselor who will force you take a look at your fear. Someone who will keep your feet to the fire while you squirm and writh in your chair attempting to justify your fear-based opinions.

You wouldn't be fearful if there weren't people capable of murder in the world, you say; they must be irradicated. Bullshit. Be thankful there's not a campaign to round up all angry and vindictive citizens- people who might be capable of murder. You just might find yourself in that group, being shuttled toward a concentration camp where you'd be subject to the whims of another group of fearful people. People kill for ONE reason, FEAR. :scared:  And you're full of it.

PS- Give this a read:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... forum=32&0

And this:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/
Gun Homicides:
The U.S. figure of 11,127 gun deaths comes from a report from the Center for Disease Control. Japan's gun deaths of 39 was provided by the National Police Agency of Japan; Germany: 381 gun deaths from Bundeskriminalamt (German FBI); Canada: 165 gun deaths from Statistics Canada, the governmental statistics agency; United Kingdom: 68 gun deaths, from the Centre for Crime and Justice studies in Britain; Australia: 65 gun deaths from the Australian Institute of Criminology; France: 255 gun deaths, from the International Journal of Epidemiology.

Question: Why is the most "POWERFUL" nation the most "FEARFUL"?

Answer: Its "power" is an illusion. Its acts of "power" (violence at home an abroad) are actually acts of fear, designed to instill fear in others- kinda like the spreading of a disease. And the majority of its inhabitants are actually scared out of their minds- as scared as their "enemies".

[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2004-03-18 04:10 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2004-03-18 00:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I vote try them as adults and give them the death penalty if found guilty. By the way,I heard the firing squad is no longer an option in Utah as of today. Too bad.

For all of you who don't agree, why don't you volunteer to take them to your house.  After all, the poor little guys have probably been misunderstood their whole lives.  



The unfortunately loosers here are the parents and the family of the counselor. "

If a jury found that a reasonable person in the same situation would be in fear of their life, and if it turned out these boys were sent off for as little reason as the one person I have personal experience of who got sent to a TBS, sure, I'd put one of them up in the guest room.

And, innocent until proven guilty, not knowing the facts of this case, I'm not going to *presume* that they were in a TBS for a *good* reason or that they *weren't* in fear of their lives before the case even gets to a jury.

Nor am I going to just be absolutely sure their actions were justifiable.

I'm going to reserve judgement until we see what a jury says about it.  *GASP!*  Imagine that!