Whitmore Academy in Utah?

[Anonymous]

This is so funny. I guess it's the American way to scructinize, nit pick, dissect, and criticize every single thing on the face of the earth. I was at the Whitmore Academy from Jul 03 to Jul 04 and the place is perfectly fine.

[caitlynloggins]

I'm surprised no one has yet mentioned the fact of this kid's behavior on the few hours before he left the Whitmore Academy. He had spent time at a local boy's house drinking alcoholic beverages, and when he did return, he only acted like he was drunk after someone told him that they thought he was. Then, he exaggerated drunken behavior by falling all over the place. If he truly had been that messed up, he would have been acting like that from the time of his return to the Whitmore (at least 15 minutes before).

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Here's something I believe we should pay some attention to; the boy left without permission, drank alcoholic beverages, and attempted to manipulate by making himself seem wasted (when it was obviously was not true).
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Knowing of this local boy who drank with the kid, we called the police, hoping to find out what we could do about this underage drinking. When the cop arrived, the kid attacked him, swinging and just about going crazy, resulting in the police having to restrain him.

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Okay, there's another thing everyone in the universe seems to have forgotten to include in their accusations and assumptions. The kid in question assulted a police officer, which if you do not know is a very serious thing.
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That night, this same boy left again without permission for the final time by running away. We have not seen him since.

Something else interesting about this, by the way, is that the day before all this went down, this boy wrote us all a letter. In this letter, he described the games he plays with people's heads. It is quite ironic that only a day later, took it upon himself to give us a little display of what he was talking about. He knows what he did. He meant to do it. Yeah, he's messed up, and yeah, he's got his problems. However, there is still no excuse for that, and there is also no excuse for you all to feed into this little monopoly he thinks he?s running. You have your opinions, I have mine. Jourdan has hers, Chris has his, as does the other Chris. Want to believe us? Good, I encourage it. Want to continue to make false accusations? Sucks to be you, but you can think for yourself. It?s not like you?re still in diapers or anything (at least, I hope not).

By the way, for those of you with less common sense, I am currently enrolled in this school, and I like it just fine. If anyone has a problem with that, I am politely asking you to please refrain from assuming, criticizing, accusing, or judging any of us until you know the facts ? all the facts. Since this is very near to impossible unless you know us personally, I?d like to simply suggest the option of leaving us be.

Just a question, but how would you like it if someone came into your house and searched for anything from a piece of mouse poop to a set of boxing gear, or even a video camera used to make home movies? How would you like it if one day, cops came into your home, dragged your siblings to the station and interrogated them about things like abuse and neglect? What if several of your brothers and sisters were taken unwillingly from your home and put into another? How would you feel about that? What would you do ? what could you do ? if suddenly there were a bunch of people talking crap about your family, comparing them to others completely unlike it?

Testify of what you know is true, right? And that is just what we are doing.

Yeah, you?ve been through crap. BFD. Get over it. That was over twenty years ago. There are bad things going on now, but what is sitting at a computer talking about it with other ?victims? going to do but increase your anger towards the situation and people involved not to mention deepen self-pity and possibly depression? Writing articles like you do is a good idea. Writing to congressmen and such is also a good idea. Telling CPS or DCFS on those evil places is also a good idea. However, just make sure you?ve investigated, have firsthand experiences to prove something is up, and know what you?re doing.

I don?t doubt those things about you. I believe that all this crap-talk going down on this forum about the Whitmore is nothing but that; talk. Rumors, gossip, whatever you want to call it? it isn?t truth, and you have no proof it is. We do have the proof, however, that all these bad things being said about us are lies. Two witnesses make a fact, and we have just about twenty times that. You?ve seen a few of us tell you what?s up. Still, it seems you persist with your futile argument of what you so strongly believe is true, yet have never seen a bit of it with your own eyes, nor have any proof or evidence that it is real.

Must I go on? I think you see my point.

However ridiculous this ongoing, chaotic debate has been, you do put up a good argument with some things. There are good excuses behind your assumptions and insults on some things. It doesn?t fly, though. We?re a good place, no matter who believes us on that. I know it in my heart, and if you look in yours no matter how broken it may be, you too will see this.

Sorry, but the horrible things said about the Whitmore Academy are wrong. I?d know. I live there.

Peace. ::rainbow::
Caitlyn Loggins

[Anonymous]

Hitler thought his intentions were 'good' too.

Survivor stories are 'good'. They inform the public and they can be very cathartic for the victims... quiet contrary to your assumption that telling stories creates depression. 'Anger toward the situation' could also be just what the dr ordered !! You make some pretty wild assumptions in your attempt to silence the opposition.

[Antigen]

On 2004-12-01 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Hitler thought his intentions were 'good' too.

Exactly. And so did good ol'e "Uncle" Joe Stalin. And so, I'm thoroughly convinced, did Art Barker and his merry band of cultic followers. And so do all of these people who run these programs.

Think about it. If they were only in it for the money, they could leave out all the mind bending and just, litterally, warehouse the kids and feed them bon bons while bilking the parents for big bucks.

But there's something else going on here. It might well be just as benign and even helpful as some participants say. But then again, there are some aspects of the program that raise some red flags. What's the story w/ the Canadian property and the animals? Who was it that talked about kids getting in trouble for showing kindness toward the animals? Any coroboration there? And what's with the daily reports written by students about other students? What's with the subliminals?

I asked a Whitmore proponant a couple of these questions before and I have never gotten any answers. Any of you care to respond to them now?

The most important question, though--the one I really would like for you to respond to--is this:

How does the program work? By what process or method do Mark and Cheryl convert unrully, troubled, "bad" kids into entheusiastically cooperative, positive influence type kids?

I'm not asking if the program has this effect or not. You've already said that it does. I want to know how that happens and if you understand how it happens.
 

I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb

[Anonymous]

I agree with the most recent post.  Those of us questioning the validity of certain aspects of the Whitmore are not, as you may say, sitting around looking for something to complaing and nitpick about.  We are concerned about some red flags that have been raised regarding HOW the work is being done.  

Look, based on what I've heard and dealt with regarding my sisters experience there, there are a lot of mixed messages.  On the one hand, I can see that Mark and Cheryl do seem to have a heart for these kids and obviously there is a real sense of family about the place.

But self growth and self discovery also tend to include an aspect of critical thinking.  Is that being taught?  Those supporters of the program seem to accept it without question.

Also, if there are kids there with REAL psychological conditions, there should be someone there with REAL mental heath certification, education AND experience helping them.  If the place only wants to take on teens that need a straight path, got caught up in the wrong crowd/wrong thing, maybe they are fully capable of that, but are they capable of dealing with a real disorder?  I'm starting to wonder.

I also wonder why all of the support here comes from the students.  Why aren't staff members talking or even more parents?  I asked a mundane question recently to the "inquiry" link on the website only to get a very suspicious reply from a student.  That again raises a flag for me regarding professionalism.

Please, don't take our critiques as any more than just that.  I beleive that many of us on this site are truely concerned about making sure that our kids and families who find a need for such services are aware of the pros and cons of each place.  We care about them and want the best for them.  There is nothing at all wrong about that.  Fortunately in this society we have the right to investigate and look at every aspect of the places that take care of our own.  Its an important thing to do and a sign of just how much we love them.  Thats not a bad thing.  Its coming from the same place where students who feel the place is being attacked are coming from.  A place of love, not fear and hate.

[Anonymous]

The problem is that in my sisters case they did NOT remove her from the program.  They accepted her and acted as if they would be able to help her.  I appreciate the desire to help, but if you don't have the training, please don't offer.  I felt it was very unprofessional and unrealistic of them.

[Anonymous]

Jourdan, I urge the same of you.  We are not stupid, we are very concerned people who love our own.

[caitlynloggins]

Here are some answers to your questions.

What's the story w/ the Canadian property and the animals?
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That was a complete injustice that occured many years ago. The Canadian government is completely screwed up. They might as well be communists. It was as Eric said; everyone who was supposed to be caring for them thought someone else was. This was a horrible case of miscommunication.

Who was it that talked about kids getting in trouble for showing kindness toward the animals? Any coroboration there?
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I don't know what you're talking about right there. Tell me what you mean, and I will answer your questions about it.

And what's with the daily reports written by students about other students?
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This teaches the kids responsibility because they have to follow through with their specific job each week. They write a report each Sunday on their responsibility and send it in to be posted on the website for parents to read. A good example is the reading intern. This person makes sure no one talks during our reading time each morning, and also reads over book reports at the end of the week to make sure they meet standard qualifications like five paragraphs, at least five sentences per paragraph, etc. This does a lot because they learn to make sure responsibilities are filled; both theirs and that of the group. Life skills are taught by this because some time in life, most people have at least one job where they are over other employees, and they must know how to be a leader. So this is for responsibility and leadership skills.

What's with the subliminals?
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Subliminals are positive affirmation tapes we listen to each morning by Karol Truman. These tapes include things like, "I choose to be happy. I feel happy. I am happy." It improves our attitude throughout the day, but doesn't 'make' us be that way. The choice at the beginning links together the thoughts and the feelings. It is not brainwashing, and we aren't forced to listen to them.

I asked a Whitmore proponant a couple of these questions before and I have never gotten any answers. Any of you care to respond to them now?
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If I had seen your questions prior to this posting, I would have answered them right then and there.

How does the program work?
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It is a family environment here. Everyone who comes to the Whitmore has family-related issues, so this helps to deal with things like that. We learn to work together as a family, and we respect Cheryl and Mark as our parents. This also develops unconditional love and acceptance for one another, which is desperately needed in a family environment. We love and respect each other here just like any other family.

By what process or method do Mark and Cheryl convert unrully, troubled, "bad" kids into entheusiastically cooperative, positive influence type kids?
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Well, we don't have any punishments for one thing. We only have rewards. Some of our rewards are going on trips, to the movies, or out to eat. We learn responsibility and leadership through jobs as intern, prefect, or monitor. If someone has a problem, we have a meeting on it and everyone offers their input. When kids come here, they want to listen and they want to try because of all the love. Like I said before, we love each other unconditionally. That can't be stopped. We help out each other with everything we can because we care.

I'm not asking if the program has this effect or not. You've already said that it does. I want to know how that happens and if you understand how it happens.
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I do understand. It happened to me.

If these answers are not what you were looking for, tell me and I will elaborate on the ones in question.

[caitlynloggins]

Anonymous, here are the answers to your questions, as well.

Look, based on what I've heard and dealt with regarding my sisters experience there, there are a lot of mixed messages. On the one hand, I can see that Mark and Cheryl do seem to have a heart for these kids and obviously there is a real sense of family about the place.
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What is your sister's name? Chances are, I know her, and could reply to you more accurately if I know who the girl is you are talking about.

But self growth and self discovery also tend to include an aspect of critical thinking. Is that being taught? Those supporters of the program seem to accept it without question.
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Are you asking if critical thinking is being taught? I don't quite understand your question, but yes, we do both teach and practice critical thinking here.

Also, if there are kids there with REAL psychological conditions, there should be someone there with REAL mental heath certification, education AND experience helping them. If the place only wants to take on teens that need a straight path, got caught up in the wrong crowd/wrong thing, maybe they are fully capable of that, but are they capable of dealing with a real disorder? I'm starting to wonder.
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We do have therapists here. It is true that one does not work here anymore, but he was immediantly replaced and things remain this way. It is my belief (I am not representing the Whitmore Academy in this) that a lot of 'disorders' come from kids being kids, and psychologists/therapists/doctors wanting to make something out of it (like a bunch of money). Look at that woman in Texas who drowned her five kids in the bathtub a few years ago, for example. Her doctor prescribed her some crazy medication she didn't need, and look what ended up happening. Also, when someone is told they have a condition, they begin to act a lot more like this accusation is true. This is why we have disorders most of the time. However, I also believe there are some who do have disorders, and yes, I also believe that we are capable of dealing with them. We have before, several times.

I also wonder why all of the support here comes from the students. Why aren't staff members talking or even more parents?
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The staff are busy dealing with other things. They really don't have the time for something like this right now. A lot of parents don't know about this forum, and I'm not going to be the one to spread the word. We don't want to bother them with something like this, anyway.

I asked a mundane question recently to the "inquiry" link on the website only to get a very suspicious reply from a student. That again raises a flag for me regarding professionalism.
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Please further explain this to me. What question did you ask, and what did the reply say? How was it suspicious, and how do you know it was a student?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-01 18:29:00, caitlynloggins wrote:

 A lot of parents don't know about this forum, and I'm not going to be the one to spread the word. We don't want to bother them with something like this, anyway.

Nah, wouldn't want to bother them with anything like legitimate questions that people raise about the manner in which their children are being "treated".   :roll:  Better to treat them like the proverbial mushroom and keep them in the dark and feed them a bunch of shit.

[Antigen]

So how does this unconditional love for relative strangers come about? There's something missing here. You take a bunch of rebellious, self destructive kids--some brought there by paid 'escorts', obviously against their will--and.... what? What exactly happens to make them all love each other unconditionally and cooperate w/ this program?

And how do these bad kids become qualified to supervise other kids? Is it something in the water? Cause it just doesn't add up the way you're describing it.

You say there is but one way to worship the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it?
--Chief Red Jacket, Seneca Indian Chieftain

[caitlynloggins]

On 2004-12-01 20:00:00, Anonymous wrote:

Nah, wouldn't want to bother them with anything like legitimate questions that people raise about the manner in which their children are being "treated".   :roll:  Better to treat them like the proverbial mushroom and keep them in the dark and feed them a bunch of shit. "

Actually, I don't believe they should have to deal with unneccesary worry and stress. They know their children are safe here. For that to be questioned as it is on this forum, it would cause them to be stressed and worried over untruths.

[caitlynloggins]

"So how does this unconditional love for relative strangers come about? There's something missing here. You take a bunch of rebellious, self destructive kids--some brought there by paid 'escorts', obviously against their will--and.... what? What exactly happens to make them all love each other unconditionally and cooperate w/ this program?

When kids first arrive, we love them because we see how they really can be; we can see their potential to be awesome people. It is at first unconditional acceptance for their true self, and they begin to want to work with us because of this. In teamwork, we understand each other a lot better and from this understanding comes love. If you adopted a kid, would you love him or her right off from the start, even if they didn't want to go with you?
By the way, less than half of the kids here were brought by escorts. Most came with their families, and some even by themselves.

And how do these bad kids become qualified to supervise other kids? Is it something in the water?

First off, please understand that there aren't any bad kids. There are only good kids  who have made some bad choices. When someone becomes more responsible, accountable, etc., through fulfilling normal responsibilities like book reports, daily journal, etc., this person can have an intern or prefect job to kind of test them and through tests like that, they learn more.

Cause it just doesn't add up the way you're describing it.

I don't expect you to understand fully. It isn't something one really can't understand from words; it is more something one must experience firsthand to really 'get.'[ This Message was edited by: caitlynloggins on 2004-12-02 05:26 ]

[Anonymous]

Actually, I don't believe they should have to deal with unneccesary worry and stress. They know their children are safe here. For that to be questioned as it is on this forum, it would cause them to be stressed and worried over untruths."

It's for you to decide what they should and shouldn't hear?  Fucking AMAZING.  If my kid was in one of those and there were people out there raising some serious questions about the manner in which these kids are being treated, I would want to hear EVERY opinion and then base my decision my own powers of observation and deduction.  They're only getting one side of the story.  They're hearing how wonderful it is but they're hearing that from PROGRAM PEOPLE.  What is everyone so afraid of?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-12-02 05:25:00, caitlynloggins wrote:


First off, please understand that there aren't any bad kids. There are only good kids  who have made some bad choices.

Believe me, she knows that.

I don't expect you to understand fully. It isn't something one really can't understand from words; it is more something one must experience firsthand to really 'get.

I think those of us who have been through this type of "treatment" "get it"  sweetie. :roll:   Once again the program people have something mystical and spiritual that we poor souls just can't understand. :roll:  :roll: