General Interest > Open Free for All
Resuscitation
Matt C. Hoffman:
I don't know where those folks went Che - I am glad that the lunacy went away when the rules of no attacking were enforced by the administrators of this site - and quite frankly I am glad they are gone, and they obviously weren't wanting justice for Elan survivors.
I wonder if they were in Elan - like the person who sent the fax to Angela of heal - If I remember you told the Elan folks that it wasn't a former resident from Elan who sent that fax to Heal/ Angela - It eventually made sense what you wrote and I think I know who sent that fax and you are right it wasn't a former resident from Elan.
Why? you don't want them back do you - lol. I am kidding of course. It was rather stunting to the cause.
Che Gookin:
got your email, unfortunately I deleted it on accident. Yes, I do know who sent the fax, not going to say though, what is done is done. The person who did it will never show contrition and quite possibly doesn't even recall doing it due to a degenerative condition of their mental faculties.
Such is life I guess.
:(
I don't overly wish the Krazy Krewe would come back, to be honest, I'd prefer put most of fornits into archive and start with something new and more relevant to modern survivors. Though, if I had to choose, I'd take an Elan Krazy over a Hyde Krazy any ol' day. I never had an Elan Krazy call my Uncle's house and threaten him because he thought I hacked his computer, which is absurd, I barely know how to turn a computer on. I've been learning more of late, but that is more due to considering a midlife career change that is more conducive to my long term hearing degeneration, meaning, its hard to teach when you can't hear shit, not so hard to fix a computer when you can't hear well.
Take the lessons learned from fornits and apply them to a new venue. Use anonymity, crowd sourcing, and the ingenuity of the users to put an absolute hurting on programs. I'm not a survivor of a program, I'll never know the anger you and Rivers of Shit.. Froddy know.
I do know the anger that comes from being a chump.
Yeah, I said chump.
Am I being hard on myself still all these years later? No, but I am being truthful. I was a complete chump for failing to be the sort of person I should have rather than falling in with what R. Lifton describes in his work that explains how good people end up doing bad shit once they become part of a group that promotes that sort of shit.
While Lifton does explain it quite well, it doesn't excuse it. It none the less makes fucking angry at times that young men and women are going to work for these places thinking they are going to help kids. They end up with a heavy heart and nightmares. I've spoken to a number of former program employees who had very little clue what the fuck they were getting into. They weren't survivors of the program, but kids hired after leaving university and needed a job. Stupid kids like I was when I was just out of college.
I'm angry that they get caught up and end up in situations they never would have ever guessed that'd they'd end up in.
Is it their fault?
That's not a complicated scenario imo, I believe we are all ultimately responsible for the evil we do. No areas of grey to be had, yet I do believe there are some people who I'd not hold it against so much as I would others. Some are easier to forgive, though they still need to balance the scales to be forgiven.
Anyway, I'm rambling. I gotta go hit the gym. Had a really bad weekend of classes, lot of problems. Shit happens, life goes on, got more classes this coming weekend, blah blah blah.
I read your email, it was a delight to read, and yes I know what you mean about teen agers.
Hah.
Matt C. Hoffman:
right on Che - I don't think they will be coming back- moderation is key and the no attack policy is the way to be.
- I think the crowd sourcing idea is fantastic. I saw it on another site and thought- that is truly a good idea. I was surprised how it was just shirked off on another person - if one doesn't know how to do it and one is young enough- they can learn - I am sure they would be able to figure it out - then I am sure there are many other issues as to why it was shirked off - which I truly understand still it should be supported and I am sure some one can be found to put a face on that project, that would be a survivor.
I hope Fornits doesn't get put into archive anytime soon - there are some things that I would like to see play out- that I vigilantly pay attention to. - It is a great resource and as I schlepp thru the various websites/opportunities I find that I post about Elan - it is nice to be able to link back to an active Fornits .
Anyways I am tired just got back from doing a little shopping for the family and stuff - I thank you for letting a former resident of Elan post here, it was cool to be able to post the truth and to clarify - I do have a record of speeding though nothing else in regards to any other serious criminal record - Felice is right I don't have that much of an experience with the inside of a courtroom - And I do think if properly prodded the judicial system can work for survivors.
I am glad you understand what I meant and wrote about my "teen-ager " You know for the life of me I could never place my children in any program to do the work of parenting for me. And since I am not a sadist and I love my children - I know and believe that they are going to be fine- really no worries - they are truly beautiful and amazing growing human beings with so much to offer- though at this stage they can be very interesting - and keep me on my toes - as has been said with out love in the dream -it will never come true.
Che if I don't hear from you, please have a great holiday season and a excellent start to the new year.
Froderik - you do the same and holler soon- and for the other silent readers - y'all have a wonderful holiday season and an excellent start to the new year too.. Ajax if you are reading I hope to continue some of those discussions, the material is interesting and seems like Mr. Sanders has a notion about it also, though because of the powers that be he hasn't a chance sadly as a snow storm happening in hell.
peace
Matt
Matt C. Hoffman:
Che- didn't see the edit of your post until I had finished writing - and man I understand what you mean about folks that leave college need a job and get the bait and switch pulled on them as they get a job working for these places - thinking that they can make a difference with at risk children - and it gets most of them all - I know who Lifton is- though one book I read recently was Philip Zimdardo's book" The Lucifer Effect".
It deals with the Stamford Prison Experiment, which was conducted by Mr. Zimbardo and compares and contrasts what was gleaned from the Stamford Prison Experiment, ( conducted in 1970) with the Abu Graibi prison in Iraq. The prison in Iraq- which resulted in the issues of severe degradation and out right torture of the prison inmates - Sadly only a few at the bottom of the chain of command got in trouble when it should have caused heads to roll and prison terms for many of the rank and file.
Sure what guards did was wrong but there were so many that should have been held accountable and not just the grunts who foolishly took the pictures - The Lucifer Effect -it is a great read.
And Che as a survivor I thank you for the words you wrote - it is not so much anger for me and I speak for myself, and please I hope no one is confusing the notion of "seeking justice" with being angry.
It is the awe that I hold for - Elan- that destroyed so many ,many lives and tore families apart the awe that I hold for Elan as it how it was able to exist for so long and the fact that many former residents of Elan are dead - people I knew and people I didn't know but have confirmed the facts of their demise- is what drives me to seek justice, people like Philip Williams ( who I didn't know ) , Tom Hassel , and I can go on and on with nanes that wouldn't mean a thing to anyone but they are dead in my opinion from just having come in to contact with Joe Ricci , his program Elan and the untrained ,uneducated miscreants that worked there for him.
You know when I was being escorted up to Maine I actually had resigned my self to the fact that this might be a good situation for me-lol- where I would get competent assistance in dealing with my sadistic abusive up bringing - that I was going to get help that I needed in dealing with the monster that was my primary caregiver - and the learned hopelessness that he had schooled me in would be addressed( of course I was not knowledgeable as to just what "learned hopelessness was at the time - I just knew things were not right with in me- hindsight is 20 -20) - I was incredibly and understandably a severely depressed child when I arrived at Elan.
It didn't take long for me to see that this was very bad place, a bad place to say the least - That about a month and some after I got there. I figured that if Elan was the bootcamp of life as it billed itself and all I had known was abuse growing up, and all I was seeing at Elan was crazy sadistic abuse that in my child like mind ( shoot I was a child at 15 and a half years old ) I just figured and put 2 and 2 together that life must be nothing but just this crazy sick abuse/pain that ( and I talked about this at that conference in 2001 ) I then made the decision that if life was nothing but sickness/pain then I didn't want to be part of it anymore.
I attempted suicide in Elan by drinking a bottle of qwell shampoo - a flea, tick and lice poison - Maia Salavitz wrote about that incident and what I related at that conference in her book ,by the name called Help At any Cost.
A friend found me in convulsions, convulsing in my bloody vomit - I had bounced off my top bunk - of course now I am certainly glad I didn't succeed in that endeavor - lol- to say the least - though sadly my friend who found me in convulsions that night - sadly he did succeed in suicide about 8 years ago.
Che I wouldn't consider you a chump - I think you may have been bamboozled and used because I believe you really did want to make a difference in at risk childrens lives and do so in survivors lives to this day - even if as you say you aren't a survivor. You care and folks can see it.
The Employees at Elan made life long careers out of serial criminal child abuse, and they made Ricci a millionaire ten times over and those are the bastards that are responsible - The folks that signed on and quit after a few months to 6 months- they were the ones that knew what Elan was doing was criminal/sick and they wanted no part because they realized that they couldn't make it a better place for the residents - because it truly was a sick fraudulent scam, a golden cash cow that many who had an interest in Elan did everything possible to keep it from being slaughtered.
People like Morris Fink ,Ronnie Evans, Marc Rosenberg are as culpable as the lifetime employees of Elan and what is funny these miscreants can't even apologize for their actions nor can they simply return a phone call from an Elan survivor because they are such cowards - and as much as honesty was part of Elan's spiel - these folks simply can't be honest as to the sickness they participated in and the harm/sadistic abuse they had us do to each other. They were the adults.
Kruglik , Gottlieb , and Sharon Terry - the ones who made life long careers out of being serial child abusers to the nth degree and are alive today simply need to go to prison -where they belong - and it is something that is very possible - the ones that protected Elan as it operated in my opinion as a continuing criminal enterprise for close to forty years in that state of Maine also need some alone time in prison - the wheels of justice turn very slowly but they do turn.
Che the book by Phillip Zimbardo is a really good read - it doesn't explain though, why former employees of Elan kept on abusing Elan survivors post their Elan experience, but I believe that to work at Elan you really had to be sick in the head and enjoyed being paid for being a child abusing sadist.
Again- thank you Che for your words concerning survivors- (of really any program). For me in particular it means a lot because no smoke is being blown, and honesty goes very far in my book.
peace
Matt
Che Gookin:
Zimbardo nailed it dead on.
His work should be required reading for anyone working with vulnerable populations.
Reminds me of an event that happened back in the day, started as an experiment, ended up an embarrassment. A program decided they needed to bring down their level of restraints by forming a committee of administrators to meet every week for a review of restraints of the last week.
The program found that none of the admins wanted to press the supervisors too closely on the circumstances surrounding the restraints because in nearly all of the cases the staff had been in the wrong. They ended up never meeting again within a few weeks. Those sorts of staff should be rounded up and shot.
Joe ricci and his ilk have earned a place in hell, and I don't even really believe in hell. But if its there, I hope those cretins are toasting their chestnuts over a pool of flaming brimstone. Bastards the lot of them.
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