Author Topic: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry  (Read 8865 times)

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Offline none-ya

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 12:51:58 PM »
He's just mad because I got him to admit that he doesn't trust whooter.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 01:00:42 PM »
Errr... I hate to break it to you, Psy has never trusted the whooter.. ever.


I remember when a certain someone changed the whooter's user title to Proud Member of Nambla (national associatio of man boy love or something like that). Psy laughed his butt off as much as the rest of us.

Psy likes these sort of long winded discussions.

I personally find them annoying.

As for the article.

I wonder, where have I heard of this Monarch school before? Isn't it a CEDU clone? I seem to remember reading about it in the context of it being a 2nd Generation of CEDU. Meaning some of the founders and employees came directly from the IDAHO CEDU crime family.

And I see to have made a mistake when I posted about ASR, it was a young man mentioned in the article, not young woman who went to ASR.
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Offline blombrowski

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 03:43:20 PM »
When I started writing all of this I didn't see Psy's response with the quote from the Marcus review.  The thing about the TTI and therapeutic communities in general - is that the level of intervention is the community.  The "treatment" effect is the imposition of community norms and community expectations.  

I don't want to lump every single program in one bucket - but as I'm sure has been noted here many times, programs have more in common with religious rites of passage than traditional mental health treatment.  And as everyone here should know, converts make the strongest believers.

To the extent that rites of passage fit within the context of ones culture, and ones expectation of behavior the harm will be less, and the benefit more (stealing this all from Marcus).  Lon Woodbury's daughter probably was actually helped by her experience - she grew up in the industry culture.  While Kat, same program, same intervention was harmed, because of how bizarre and culturally inappropriate the intervention was.  Lon's daughter talks to her parents and her parent's friends about her experience and they're as familiar with the intervention strategy as the liturgy on Sunday.  For Kat, if she talked to most people in her community circle about it, they would treat her like an alien.

As to the way the industry measures these things, and not the human rights advocates, there are some circumstances that should fairly predict whether or not a program will be helpful to an individual youth.  If I practice heart surgery on someone who has a heart condition, that's treatment, if I practice heart surgery on someone who has a kidney infection that's malpractice.  Likewise, a positive peer culture might make sense for a bored and spoiled youth who is getting into trouble with the law, it should be considered child abuse for a rape victim who is acting out because of their trauma.

Obviously there are interventions that are universally harmful.  Whooter, I'd be interested to know exactly what you consider to never be an acceptable intervention.  

But most of the harm that those in this community have experienced are context specific.  I think we have to admit that there are some interventions that may have harmed us, that have actually helped others - and that the help and impact are real (leaving aside the question of whether they could have been helped in another way).  But on the flipside, there should be some recognition by those who work in the industry, that there are interventions that they use that are likely to cause harm should they be used on the wrong person.  Given the difficulty that even child protection specialists have with discerning the truth when a parent says one thing and a child says another, it's hard to believe that even in the best of circumstances that a parent will always be a reliable communicator of a child's needs and situation.  

Quote from: "Whooter"
That's really the core issue here. Desperate parents are willing to try anything when they feel like their kids are spiraling out of control and programs are more than willing to sell them a solution. The viability or efficacy of the solution doesn't matter. What matters is that it makes the parents feel good and as far as i'm concerned, that's the number one goal of many of these programs -- not helping the kids. Whooter would argue that by helping the kids, the parents are pleased. I would counter that programs need not actually help the kids. All they have to do is get the kids to believe, and openly profess, that they were helped. If they explode later -- well. It's anybody's fault but the program.

The parents are the customers, there's no doubt about that.  But what if there is full transparency about what the parents were getting for their money, I don't think it would make much of a difference.  The parents who are willing to spend the 100,000 or so, I think they would be satisfied with the dismal long-term outcomes.  Even if we could make the argument that the program doesn't help over the long-term, they might take the trade-off of their kids long-term emotional harm for what a program does provide.  

Then again... I can't find this research paper anywhere except for on the conference agenda where it was presented:

But Does it Really Last? Confronting Hard Questions About Transition
Home and the Sustainability of Change. Lessons from 200 Interviews
with Families Years After Youth Residential Treatment
In our recent study of 125 families years after a youth’s residential treatment, we
observed ?ve external barriers to long-term, sustainable change: 1) A college
party atmosphere glorifying drugs and alcohol, 2) The destructive impact of some
boyfriends, 3) An un-changed home atmosphere of parent habits and overall family
patterns, 4) A relapse into severe depression or anxiety & 5) Instability associated with
changing medication effects over time. This presentation summarizes and elaborates
our subsequent efforts as an agency to better equip youth to face these challenges by
ensuring personal (and family) change goes deeper than behavioral shifts.
Presenters: Jacob Hess, Ph.D., Research Director, Utah Youth Village; Eric Bjorklund,
J.D., Executive Director, Utah Youth Village
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 03:44:03 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Apparently, none of these things seemed to shock Dave Marcus in the least -- certainly not in retrospect. Anyway, wasn't he And even if what he saw and reported was completely accurate, it's still anecdote. There is no proof whatsoever that a single kid was ever saved by a program. There are plenty who think they were, but then again, there are plenty who swear by homeopathy, or Scientology, or foul smelling exotic fruits.

The guy is a Pulitzer prized writer and spent 14 or 16 months inside of a program and wrote about his findings.  You cant get much more accurate than that.  He interviewed kids, wrote what he experienced and saw first-hand.

Quote
Speaking of exotic fruits, the Noni fruit, which Whooter is so fond of is not allowed to be sold in Europe as a health product. It's permitted to be sold as a food, but it's not permissible to sell it with any claims about health benefits. Why? Because there is no real evidence there are any. Why then is it OK to send kids to a programs that makes claims about "saving" kids when there is no evidence that has ever happened and there is considerable evidence the methods often employed are harmful? Should parents be able to subject their kids, as their property, to any untested treatment whatsoever?

I dont think they can claim it here either.  It is not approved by the FDA to cure anything, its a fruit juice.  It has not been evaluated yet,  but preliminary evidence is leaning toward it being very helpful for ones health.  I dont think many people really want to wait another 10 to 20 years for the studies to come out.  There are dozens of herbs and berries way ahead in line to be tested and evaluated.

Quote
That's really the core issue here. Desperate parents are willing to try anything when they feel like their kids are spiraling out of control and programs are more than willing to sell them a solution. The viability or efficacy of the solution doesn't matter. What matters is that it makes the parents feel good and as far as i'm concerned, that's the number one goal of many of these programs -- not helping the kids. Whooter would argue that by helping the kids, the parents are pleased. I would counter that programs need not actually help the kids. All they have to do is get the kids to believe, and openly profess, that they were helped. If they explode later -- well. It's anybody's fault but the program.

I disagree, psy, there is evidence that these programs are extremely helpful.  Of just the ones I have heard of there was a limited independent study done by a PhD graduate student and a few of the programs have conducted studies of their own and paid independent agencies to conduct studies.  I believe the findings were in the area of 80% of the reported kids did better after completing the program.



...
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Offline blombrowski

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 03:59:06 PM »
There are residential programs that can't even get the child to make gains between admission and discharge.  So the pre-post gains are something.  But... without those gains being compared to a control group who didn't have the intervention, or a different intervention, it's hard to make a comparison.
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2013, 04:09:55 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
Then again... I can't find this research paper anywhere except for on the conference agenda where it was presented:

[...]

1) A college party atmosphere glorifying drugs and alcohol

C'mon. You know it's not a serious research paper when they start spewing stuff like this. It's like reading an astronomy paper that mentions the angels that push the heavenly spheres. Whether or not there was any research at all or it was pure make-believe is an open question, but either way, it never passed peer review or any serious scrutiny.

Quote
Presenters: Jacob Hess, Ph.D., Research Director, Utah Youth Village; Eric Bjorklund,
J.D., Executive Director, Utah Youth Village

Really curious which collegiate Cracker Jack box these guys got those degrees out of. Some joke of a college or a straight-up diploma mill?

Some of them are finally starting to realize "this really isn't working" when they look beyond the echo chamber. So they try with their limited faculties to determine what's gone wrong. However, the whole foundation on which they do "science" is complete bullshit, so they can't get real answers and wouldn't recognize them if they did.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline Whooter

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2013, 04:23:45 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
There are residential programs that can't even get the child to make gains between admission and discharge.  So the pre-post gains are something.  But... without those gains being compared to a control group who didn't have the intervention, or a different intervention, it's hard to make a comparison.

I agree, if they could some how develop a controlled group of kids who are similar, sending half to a program and the other half allow to move forward the best they can on local services or status quo and then follow them a few years past graduation to say age 22 I think that would reveal a lot about the effectiveness (or ineffectiveness) of the program.  Because many here on fornits feel some of these kids will outgrow their problems naturally (mature) over time without such a dramatic intervention as 16 months in a program.

Still reading your previous post....



...
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Offline blombrowski

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2013, 04:30:35 PM »
Dr. Jacob Hess, (PhD), who received his doctorate in Clinical-Community Psychology from the University of Illinois Urbana Champaign

After watching him present, and also observing what his research interests are, and the fact that he has published other peer-reviewed articles, I don't doubt his sincerity or skill as a researcher.  

As for this study, it was a qualitative research study that followed-up with families I believe 2 years post discharge, and the long-term outcomes weren't that great.  But it did establish some patterns as to which of the young women were successful after discharge and what were some of the contributing factors.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2013, 04:55:33 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Errr... I hate to break it to you, Psy has never trusted the whooter.. ever.


I remember when a certain someone changed the whooter's user title to Proud Member of Nambla (national associatio of man boy love or something like that). Psy laughed his butt off as much as the rest of us.

A guy from China who was partying too much named TSW if I remember correctly.  I thought it was funny too until I needed to explain to my wife why all of a sudden I started receiving NAMBLA membership pamplets in the mail and Thailand getaway vacation packages.  You think having your identity stolen is hard to clean up.



...
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Offline Pile of Dead Kids

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2013, 04:58:48 PM »
Quote from: "blombrowski"
After watching him present, and also observing what his research interests are, and the fact that he has published other peer-reviewed articles, I don't doubt his sincerity or skill as a researcher.

Okay- I'll take your word for it. He's still missing the forest for the trees here, simply by the way he phrased it: "we observed ?ve external barriers to long-term, sustainable change"

Drugs and alcohol are always going to be widely available. These kids' fucked-up families are always going to be fucked up. Some men are always going to look for ways to take advantage of young women, untreated chemical mental illness requires medication, and medication issues need the attention of experienced psychopharmacologists. If any "treatment program" doesn't prepare the people it's "treating" for these influences, then it's fixed precisely nothing. For him to call these "external barriers" instead of the things that actual treatment would have taught them to deal with is simply intellectually dishonest. If "long-term, sustainable change" doesn't survive contact with the real world, it was neither long-term nor sustainable to begin with.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
...Sergey Blashchishen, James Shirey, Faith Finley, Katherine Rice, Ashlie Bunch, Brendan Blum, Caleb Jensen, Alex Cullinane, Rocco Magliozzi, Elisa Santry, Dillon Peak, Natalynndria Slim, Lenny Ortega, Angellika Arndt, Joey Aletriz, Martin Anderson, James White, Christening Garcia, Kasey Warner, Shirley Arciszewski, Linda Harris, Travis Parker, Omega Leach, Denis Maltez, Kevin Christie, Karlye Newman, Richard DeMaar, Alexis Richie, Shanice Nibbs, Levi Snyder, Natasha Newman, Gracie James, Michael Owens, Carlton Thomas, Taylor Mangham, Carnez Boone, Benjamin Lolley, Jessica Bradford's unnamed baby, Anthony Parker, Dysheka Streeter, Corey Foster, Joseph Winters, Bruce Staeger, Kenneth Barkley, Khalil Todd, Alec Lansing, Cristian Cuellar-Gonzales, Janaia Barnhart, a DRA victim who never even showed up in the news, and yet another unnamed girl at Summit School...

Offline psy

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2013, 05:47:25 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Unless of course you are trying to illustrate the absurd lengths programs go to make their already absurd case. If that's the case then sorry None-ya, I agree with Psy.

Personally though, I'm wondering if you've been taking a bit of your vino therapy too seriously or some such thing.

It's an analogy from the other thread I carried over.  As to the pseudo-interrogation related to whether I trust Whooter --  the posts just went on for too long and had nothing to do with the thread and so I moved them.  No. I don't trust him, and parents should trust nobody.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline psy

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2013, 05:50:18 PM »
Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"
If "long-term, sustainable change" doesn't survive contact with the real world, it was neither long-term nor sustainable to begin with.

Any change that relies on thought reform cannot survive outside the milieu of the program -- at least without a support structure of some kind to provide the converts with somewhere they can worship.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2013, 09:56:51 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Errr... I hate to break it to you, Psy has never trusted the whooter.. ever.


I remember when a certain someone changed the whooter's user title to Proud Member of Nambla (national associatio of man boy love or something like that). Psy laughed his butt off as much as the rest of us.

A guy from China who was partying too much named TSW if I remember correctly.  I thought it was funny too until I needed to explain to my wife why all of a sudden I started receiving NAMBLA membership pamplets in the mail and Thailand getaway vacation packages.  You think having your identity stolen is hard to clean up.



...

So you go by the handle of Whooter in real life also?

[Emoticon redacted by Psy]



I'm surprised the industry hasn't tried to buy and pay for more studies given the Miller hearing in which MIller verbally slapped around the NATSAP flunkie Jan Moss on CSPAN. She  just sort of sat there and looked silly while not really being able to respond.

I recall them having that horridly flawed Beherens study that was funded by Aspen, no compromised ethics there of course.. pbbbtt.. lol.
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Offline lifeboat

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2013, 12:54:35 AM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Errr... I hate to break it to you, Psy has never trusted the whooter.. ever.


I remember when a certain someone changed the whooter's user title to Proud Member of Nambla (national associatio of man boy love or something like that). Psy laughed his butt off as much as the rest of us.

Psy likes these sort of long winded discussions.

I personally find them annoying.

As for the article.

I wonder, where have I heard of this Monarch school before? Isn't it a CEDU clone? I seem to remember reading about it in the context of it being a 2nd Generation of CEDU. Meaning some of the founders and employees came directly from the IDAHO CEDU crime family.

And I see to have made a mistake when I posted about ASR, it was a young man mentioned in the article, not young woman who went to ASR.

http://jpstillwater.blogspot.com/2005/0 ... -does.html

"The founder of Monarch, Patrick McKenna, is a graduate of Rocky Mountain Academy, which is a CEDU program; Monarch's Admissions Director, Ranel Hanson, worked for Rocky Mountain Academy for six years and then joined SUWS. (Info pertaining to CEDU & SUWS are at the very end.)"
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Vice article on The Troubled Teen Industry
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2013, 01:12:44 AM »
I need to update my ceduwatch thread.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »