Author Topic: WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"  (Read 9316 times)

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Offline FaceKhan

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« on: July 01, 2001, 04:55:13 AM »
Struggling Teens made me sick to my stomach.
I had resisted the urge to take a close look into the msg boards of strugglingteens.org but I finally allowed my curiousity to take hold of my better judgment and desire to sleep well. It only took a few minutes to find boards full of parents giving kudos to one another for sending their kids to programs that I have read terrifying first hand accounts from. So self-righteous, full of this assurance that they are sending a self-destructive teen in and that shortly they will be sent back a devoted, respectful, college bound teen who will be everything they want and more.


I imagine the hand of fate will be circling that board, picking and choosing the parents whose children, will never be able to leave their confinement and stay on as staff, those that will never be able to live with their pain and fall into that downward spiral that was only a scare tactic before the program, and those that won't even make it through the program alive.


The parents are responsible, I do not care if they have been lied to, or mislead, or thought it was the only way. I don't care if they investigated it or were referred by friends or proffessionals. Their attitudes are frightening to me, I wonder if I look hard enough will I find a post made by Alex's mother, will I find a hundred posts supporting her decision. I don't know which is scarier, the first hand accounts of these places or the fairly tales that parents tell themselves to justify their complacency in their own child's psychological rape.  

Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
All of the darkness of the world cannot put out the light of one small candle.\"

Offline Elle

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2001, 09:26:13 PM »
Parents making me sick to my stomach
My mother and I watched a program (20/20?) a long time ago about a behavioral rehabilitation program on some tropical island. When investigated, boys were found locked in closets where they'd spent days, completely bound with duck tape over their mouths. Everyone was ill, everyone had scabes and every other bug that layed eggs in your skin there. No one was allowed an identitiy fo their own, they all wore raps and no shoes. I asked my mother "can you believe it?" and she said "Sometimes you have to go to great lengths to save a kids life." As we argued I realized for the first time that there was no form of abuse harsh enough to make her see that something wrong is happening in these centers. She is so programmed, that if I had been murdered in rehab she would believe it was for the right reasons.

          Elle.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2001, 12:19:57 AM »
Edge of Night
I know, I know. I have a really hard time retaining some details about all of this stuff because I've trained myself so well over the years to tune it out in self defense.


The only historic precedent that I can think of to somehow put it all in perspective are things like Naziism, the witch hunts and frequent, though usually quiate stories of small town mass hysteria. This too will pass. And, somehow or other, we'll need to make peace afterwards. I don't know quite how that's done. But I hope to find time soon to read up on the aftermath of these situations and maybe get some insight.  

-If there's a worse idea going than locking kids up for victimless crimes, it's probably locking them in close proximity to some tyrannical altruist bent on helping them even if it kills them.
http://trebach.org/conference.html'>Saving our Children from Drug Treatment Abuse

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Elle

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2001, 12:44:39 AM »
Parents
Does anyone have parents who have "seen the light" yet? because I'm wondering if it's just me, or if anyone has seen a parent figure out that they were programmed. Most parents I know have said "I don't agree with everything that went on" or "Sometimes they pushed things too far and I don't undrstand why" but none of them have outwardly accepted that the whole thing was fucked.


                       Elle.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2001, 01:17:24 PM »
Wes Fager
Elle, Wes Fager, author of A Clockwork Straight, was a Program parent. Also the man who posts to this board from time to time as BostonBrave and a half dozen former SAFE parents. My own dad was perriferally involved in The Seed and Straight for nearly 10 years. But he figured it out a few years later.


My mother, otoh, recently said to one of my brothers 'I just don't understand it. Of 6 children, the two I've helped the most don't even talk to me...' That was the joke of the month among us kids, even the one brother who graduated The Seed twice and remains steeped in the 12-step culture after 30 years.

-If there's a worse idea going than locking kids up for victimless crimes, it's probably locking them in close proximity to some tyrannical altruist bent on helping them even if it kills them.
http://trebach.org/conference.html'>Saving our Children from Drug Treatment Abuse

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline FaceKhan

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2001, 02:27:45 PM »
Aftermath
Well the aftermath of Naziism was that they all became hunted men, Nazi's who were not needed for their technical knowledge were executed or imprisoned. Still, much like the aftermath of Straight Inc, those who were connected or useful were safe from justice, the former director of NASA was tried at Nuremburg and many others fled to South America.  In regards to those who still cannot admit that what these cults do is wrong, well most of the Nazi's thought they were doing the right thing too, but their nooses did not seem to take notice.  

Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
All of the darkness of the world cannot put out the light of one small candle.\"

Offline Scott W

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM »
Stranggling Teens
Well,


It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people can be.  I went ahead and registered with the intention of posting a few links and responses to these idiots but I reallized it was pointless.  I am just glad we are all here for thier kids if they indeed survive what their parents are putting thekm through.


Note:  We are also here for the parents who figure it out too.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2001, 05:23:05 PM »
Re: Stranggling Teens
Face, I'm not talking about the people who run these programs. As tragic as their personal stories may be, it's far overshadowed by what they will likely do to others if no one stops them. If that means prison, public humiliation or just countering their bullshit so that no one will buy into it any more, I don't have time to consider the consequences to them; they've got all that and more coming to them.


I'm talking about the rank and file proud parents and graduates and all thoe well intended people from NIDA all the way down through local law enforcement, education, CPS and community volunteers who assist in their recruiting and propaganda. For the most part, they're good and decent people just like the rank and file Nazi soldiers, teachers, mothers and fathers who bought into the madness for so long. As I understand it, most of them never fully believed in the existance of the death camps. They believed what their fearless and nobel[sic] leaders told them; that these were degenerate criminals undergoing rehabilitation.


In Germany today, Nazi propaganda is illegal and, as I understand it, they take enforcement very seriously! So what happened to all those good people after the war? How have they come to terms with what they'd done? How did they make peace with the neighbor who's daughter was raped and murdered by SS officers acting on an annonymous tip from them? Or did they.


Question is, what do we do with the Bill Carvey's of the world after the game is over?


Scott, the best use I can find for those recruiting forums is to use them as proof for people who can't take our word for it that TOUGHLOVE is just another hate-group. I can't stomach much of it either. But once in awahile, when I'm feeling pluckey, I like to troll around pretending to be a parent looking for help for a typically rebellious kid. Then I start asking very polite but difficult questions. I don't do this to sway the people dolling out all the hate. I do this to push their buttons and get them to show their asses for the benefit of those folks who are still forming an opinion of the whole thing.

-If there's a worse idea going than locking kids up for victimless crimes, it's probably locking them in close proximity to some tyrannical altruist bent on helping them even if it kills them.
http://trebach.org/conference.html'>Saving our Children from Drug Treatment Abuse

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline Scott

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2001, 07:36:12 PM »
uh
Hey Ginger,


You're right.  I finally felt plucky enough to join in a few of the conversations.  It has been a while since I have had the time to go fishing


Cheers and see ya soon

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline sullyceltic

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2001, 08:02:39 PM »
Re: Parents
yes, elle, i believe that my father has been able to

accept what happened to him during the "straight experience". i live several states away from my

dad now and don't get to see him nearly as much as

i would like to, but through our phone conversations,

i know that he knows.


he is more and more aware now of the specific ways that

both he and my mom were duped, lied to, and pressured into becoming walking infomercials for "straight incorp".


thankfully, my dad has always made baseball and football the number one things in his life. because of that he can see things a little more clearly than your garden variety "straight-preacher", which my mom was for a long time.

my dad is a lot more understanding and smypathetic to

what we kids had to endure in there - and i am to him as well. the parents had no idea what we we're being fed, we had no idea what the parents we're being fed. that along with the "no talking bad about the program" and "no talking behind backs" rules being shoved at us constantly, it's a miracle that my dad and i have even talked about straight at all.


my dad knows. my mom doesn't. so where does that leave me? - right here, waiting for the 2001-2002 NBA season to get underway, and hoping that the Boston Celtics can turn it around, get into the playoffs and make some noise!!!!


it was hell in there. what i respect most is that my dad admits that that is true. if there were still open-meetings on

friday night, my mom would probably go.


love ya mom, love ya dad.


sully's email: [email protected]

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline FaceKhan

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2001, 06:01:31 AM »
Re: Parents
Well, I have this wonderful vision of a squad of liberators going from gulag to gulag, freeing the kids of their slavery and freeing the program operators of their mortal coil. Unfortunately it can't happen today.


I know that most holocaust survivors and their progeny are not too fond of Germans to this day, they don't buy German products, and generally not Ford cars either, because Henry Ford was a big Nazi wannabee. Still, at least the Germans can admit the mistakes made in the past. The Japanese still deny most of the disgusting things they did to the Chinese. There were even Nazi's that served as consulars to Japanese controlled China, who hid Chinese people so that they would not be murdered, while on the other side of the world, Japanese diplomats to Nazi controlled Europe did the same thing by granting visas to Jews and Gypsies.

Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
All of the darkness of the world cannot put out the light of one small candle.\"

Offline BostonBrave

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2001, 06:01:31 AM »
Re:Parents
  Well, it's not pleasant to read the messages of this thread. I have been trying to come to grips with my decision to put my son in Straight in 1987,and what was worse, to keep him there for twenty months.

  As a young person I had often wondered how the German people could have followed Hitler,or how Castro was able to stay in power.Recent reflection on my own decisions in the late 80's have given me some insight.

  When either an individual or a nation is faced with a choice between order and chaos, the pick will be order,almost every time.Germany in the 20's was faced with unbelievable inflation,where a person's life savings would no longer buy a pair of shoes. Social breakdown was endemic and the society and culture seemed about to collapse. Into the breach stepped a man who promised a return to prosperity, an end to strife and a return to greatness for the nation.The price? The people would have to stop thinking for themselves and surrender their wills to him.

  The thousands of American parents who have turned their children over to harmful treatment programs give evidence that what happened in Germany when people suspended their own judgment in favor of "The Program" would probably happen here given a similar sense of desperation. It is a great tragedy whenever an indivdual forfeits his autonomy. I should have had the stones to get my boy out of harm's way. Never again. Never.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline sullyceltic

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2001, 08:09:21 PM »
parents
yeah, i appreciate what you have to say

bostonbrave. i only know my side of the

story. i'm just now beginning to understand
what was going on with my parents that

led them to decide to put me in straight.


i guess my "never again" statement would be

about appreciating my parents and their efforts.


no parent is pefect. no kid is perfect. i think that

my parents did pretty well raising us, despite

the numerous issues that existed between them.


and yes, i was mad for a while. but now i'm just

thankful that i have a decent life. whatever in the

past has occured, i don't arrive here - a happy 30

year old - with out it.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Antigen

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2001, 09:55:17 PM »
Please don't take it the wrong way
We all got sucked into the Twilight Zone for awhile. No one makes a concious decision to quit thinking for themselves. We just concede one point at a time, sometimes, and never notice that we've quit making our own decisions.


Remember that, during all that time, we were busy beating down newcomers (or passively complicit) and surveiling and reporting on parents as well.


When I make the Nazi comparison, I do it with the understanding that the German people are as good, decent and kind as anyone.

-If there's a worse idea going than locking kids up for victimless crimes, it's probably locking them in close proximity to some tyrannical altruist bent on helping them even if it kills them.
http://trebach.org/conference.html'>Saving our Children from Drug Treatment Abuse

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
~ Crosby Stills Nash & Young, Sweet Judy Blue Eyes

Offline FaceKhan

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WInston Churchill on "Sobriety"
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM »
Other examples of Mind Control
Have any of you ever seen the movie called The Wave or read the book? It is about a highschool teacher who decides to run a class experiment to show how Naziism took hold in Germany. His experiment ends up being too successful, his new ideology takes over the entire school, until the few students who are not members are being persecuted.


When you replace a person's pride in their individuality with pride in being part of the group, you have them.

Slavish discipline makes a slavish temper... If severity carry'd to the
highest pitch does prevail, and works a cure upon the present unruly
distemper, it often brings in the room of it a worse and more dangerous
disease, by breaking the mind; and then, in the place of a disorderly young
fellow, you have a low spirited moap'd creature, who, however with his
unnatural sobriety he may please silly people, who commend tame unactive
children, because they make no noise, nor give them any trouble; yet at
last, will probably prove as uncomfortable a thing to his friends, as he
will be all his life an useless thing to himself and others... Beating them,
and all other sorts of slavish and corporal punishments, are not the
discipline fit to be used in the education of those we would have wise,
good, and ingenuous men...
John Locke, 1692

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
All of the darkness of the world cannot put out the light of one small candle.\"