Author Topic: Misuse of The Word "Cult"  (Read 3871 times)

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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 11:55:28 AM »
Quote from: "reformed12stepper"
danny you display the kind of mentality I am talking about. I assume you are referring to my first post that indicated my early doubts from that you automatically assumed I walked away even though the same post indicates that I stuck around while these doubts grew and tried a second 12 step group for gay people only. I then left. Why do you care so much that some people from the internet may or may not like the 12 steps and give their opinion on it. I just dont get why this means so much to you.
Psy guys like Danny illustrate my point. This inability to deal with any criticism of "The faith" without dismissing and attacking someone is pretty cult like behavior wouldnt you say. Ive literally met scientologists who are more mellow.

You know exactly what my point illustrates Non-Stepper, that you will go to any lengths to prove a point even if it means putting your sensibility on the line.
All you have proven today is your complete nonsense, stop referring to Psy, he is not going to help you.
As I told you once before your lack of actual AA hard intellectual knowledge is baffling, in all of your posts you have written about your experiences with other AA people, what they have said, how they behaved and possibly what they are thinking.
Which I personally don't have a problem with but this is not necessarily AA. AA is reading the book, practicing the 12 steps and then moving on in life. Not hanging around in meetings trying to pick up lovers, gossiping and wondering where your going out to after the meeting. If you went to AA to fraternize then that is all well and good but don't complain if your expectations were not met. It seems since you found AA unacceptable as a functional place to socialize you want to find fault, so your trying to jump on the band wagon here with your glib comments.
Stepper most of my AA eduction took place at my home and in life. I was taught to spend my time educating myself about alcoholism and drug addiction, go to counseling and learn about myself. This is what I did, most of us did exactly this.
Where you folks are getting all this other shit is anybodies guess, your reading way to much into what Bill Wilson was writing about and you have taken the Book completely out of context.
AA is not a program that you insert, it is a philosophy/a design for living, you want to do or not. Where you are getting this cult, negative mind reform is from fears "you" have created and probably reinforced talking with folks like yourself who were confused.
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Offline psy

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 01:08:08 PM »
Quote from: "reformed12stepper"
Psy I get where you are coming from with this. I admit I am not any cult expert although i did read the margaret singer book. But I would say that some AA groups in my experience are less like a cult than others for sure.  I dont know if you have had addiction issues yourself

Nope.  I do have the "bad habit" of smoking cigarettes, though, but when it gets to the point where it causes me more risk or pain than pleasure, i'll quit.

Quote
but where AA is pretty dogmatic is that anyone for whom their ideas don't work they do dismiss as morally inferior.

I'm not sure what would make you think I disagree.  There is no question that AA can be very very cult-like, as you've pointed out.

@Danny:

You didn't answer my two questions.  You didn't list any specific books at all.  I don't care if you're "not hamstrung by a structured education".  You're capable of reading a book.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 01:32:21 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "reformed12stepper"
Psy I get where you are coming from with this. I admit I am not any cult expert although i did read the margaret singer book. But I would say that some AA groups in my experience are less like a cult than others for sure.  I dont know if you have had addiction issues yourself

Nope.  I do have the "bad habit" of smoking cigarettes, though, but when it gets to the point where it causes me more risk or pain than pleasure, i'll quit.

Quote
but where AA is pretty dogmatic is that anyone for whom their ideas don't work they do dismiss as morally inferior.

I'm not sure what would make you think I disagree.  There is no question that AA can be very very cult-like, as you've pointed out.

@Danny:

You didn't answer my two questions.  You didn't list any specific books at all.  I don't care if you're "not hamstrung by a structured education".  You're capable of reading a book.

 :rofl:  :rofl:
Yes I am capable of reading books, I am reading two right now, "What In The World Is Going On?  by  Dr. David Jeremiah and  The Honor Of Spies (An Honor Bound Novel) by W.E.B. Griffith and William E. Butterworth IV.  I did answer your question, come down to Atlanta. I will show you my impressive collection of books I have read.
 
My dyslexia has a rare twist to it in regards to retaining information, so when I talk with folks about books I have read I need them in from of me, therefore, I can't right now refer to them.
 
I am in Tampa and Englewood on vacation. I will be in Atlanta on "Rosh Hashanah" with friends, I will make the effort to answer your question then, OK. Otherwise to mean I can not think of a book right now of significance to save my life.
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Offline Awake

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2010, 02:41:38 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
According to Margaret Singer, a group must fit three criteria in order to be called a cult.

1. The origin of the group (the intent of the leader, where the beliefs come from, etc).
2. The use of thought reform (Liftons 8, Singer's 6, etc...)
3. The organization must be structured like an inverted "T".  The charismatic leader is on top, and everybody else is on the bottom.  There may be a leadership structure but ultimately all decisions are made by the great, all knowing, leader.

A group can be a "cult like group", "thought reform environment", or "compete and utter bullshit" but unless it fits all three of the above criteria, it's inaccurate to call it a "cult".  AA is not a cult.  It's charismatic leader is dead.  It also has little organizational structure.  It may be a cult like group or a thought reform environment but to apply the term to AA cheapens it (especially when there are programs out there that do fit all three).


I think there is an important consideration to make in this definition. The concept of the corporate entity AS the cult leader, and that legally obligates the organization to organize in an inverted T. The directors of a corporation, under penalty of law, are required to make decisions that will return the most money to it’s shareholders. Corporations are legally recognized as citizens and protected by the same laws as any ordinary person. Corporations will develop an identity or self image, and they have the same rights to protect it as any person, by law, from such things as slander or inaccurate portrayals.  Can’t this “identity” be seen as a “charismatic character”?

Just as a topic of debate here, if it is known within a corporation, or organization, that it would best benefit from using techniques of thought reform, can’t we then assume that it in fact WILL use it under the corporations own inherent obligations? If there are no laws that protect against the use of thought reform, then the direction to use it comes directly from the corporation itself. It seems to me there is a systemic flaw in that a lack of laws in this area actually legally obligate certain organizations, such as troubled teen programs, to practice thought reform.

Doesn’t this qualify under Singers conditions as a cult?

(imo- I actually don’t like using the word cult anyway. I think it turns many people off in a serious conversation and it is stigmatized and stereotyped too much. Yet there seems to be a lack for a better word in many cases.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2010, 02:58:55 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
According to Margaret Singer, a group must fit three criteria in order to be called a cult.

1. The origin of the group (the intent of the leader, where the beliefs come from, etc).
2. The use of thought reform (Liftons 8, Singer's 6, etc...)
3. The organization must be structured like an inverted "T".  The charismatic leader is on top, and everybody else is on the bottom.  There may be a leadership structure but ultimately all decisions are made by the great, all knowing, leader.

A group can be a "cult like group", "thought reform environment", or "compete and utter bullshit" but unless it fits all three of the above criteria, it's inaccurate to call it a "cult".  AA is not a cult.  It's charismatic leader is dead.  It also has little organizational structure.  It may be a cult like group or a thought reform environment but to apply the term to AA cheapens it (especially when there are programs out there that do fit all three).

I hear what you're saying and agree with most of it, but Scientology is a cult and their leader's dead.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline heretik

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2010, 03:06:43 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "psy"
According to Margaret Singer, a group must fit three criteria in order to be called a cult.

1. The origin of the group (the intent of the leader, where the beliefs come from, etc).
2. The use of thought reform (Liftons 8, Singer's 6, etc...)
3. The organization must be structured like an inverted "T".  The charismatic leader is on top, and everybody else is on the bottom.  There may be a leadership structure but ultimately all decisions are made by the great, all knowing, leader.

A group can be a "cult like group", "thought reform environment", or "compete and utter bullshit" but unless it fits all three of the above criteria, it's inaccurate to call it a "cult".  AA is not a cult.  It's charismatic leader is dead.  It also has little organizational structure.  It may be a cult like group or a thought reform environment but to apply the term to AA cheapens it (especially when there are programs out there that do fit all three).


I think there is an important consideration to make in this definition. The concept of the corporate entity AS the cult leader, and that legally obligates the organization to organize in an inverted T. The directors of a corporation, under penalty of law, are required to make decisions that will return the most money to it’s shareholders. Corporations are legally recognized as citizens and protected by the same laws as any ordinary person. Corporations will develop an identity or self image, and they have the same rights to protect it as any person, by law, from such things as slander or inaccurate portrayals.  Can’t this “identity” be seen as a “charismatic character”?

Just as a topic of debate here, if it is known within a corporation, or organization, that it would best benefit from using techniques of thought reform, can’t we then assume that it in fact WILL use it under the corporations own inherent obligations? If there are no laws that protect against the use of thought reform, then the direction to use it comes directly from the corporation itself. It seems to me there is a systemic flaw in that a lack of laws in this area actually legally obligate certain organizations, such as troubled teen programs, to practice thought reform.

Doesn’t this qualify under Singers conditions as a cult?

(imo- I actually don’t like using the word cult anyway. I think it turns many people off in a serious conversation and it is stigmatized and stereotyped too much. Yet there seems to be a lack for a better word in many cases.)

Awake, let me me try a thought on you here. I believe the trouble people would have calling the TTI a cult is for several reasons, one as you said, "just the word" intimidates, second there are to many entities working within the TTI for their to be focused concentration.  Examples; parents, the child, the program and The Corporation, there is the inverted "T" but it is crowded at the top.
I don't know if this made any sense just some thoughts.
I do believe programs march in a "cult like" step with their daily model of thought control.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2010, 06:01:07 PM »
Danny reinventing himself, laughable.
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Offline shakilabarbosa

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2010, 12:28:34 AM »
I get where you are coming from with this. I admit that I have no cult expert Margaret Singer, even though I read the book. But I would say that some AA groups in my experience are less of a cult than others for sure. I do not know if you have an addiction to things myself, but if the AA is rather dogmatic, that all those to whom their doctrines are not active refusal morally inferior.
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Offline none-ya

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Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2010, 10:45:10 PM »
I thought we were real![attachment=0:1xlt9kxk]cult 2.jpg[/attachment:1xlt9kxk]
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?©?€~¥@

Offline Ursus

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yellow t-shirts
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2010, 01:00:57 AM »
Lol. At Hyde, it is yellow t-shirts instead of the orange robes...  :D  

At least, such was the case in 2009... From the Only @ Hyde, HAPA -- an LGAT and On Being a Hyde Parent threads, respectively:


  • Originally posted on 13 Feb 2009:
    Quote from: "Deprogrammed by the Dead"
    Quote from: "Ursus"
    Here's a YouTube clip that includes the material within that Google clip Joe posted above, plus extra before and after material.

      Only At Hyde
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXvwT2Fbhlc
      Hyde School visits Today Show to promote new website.
    Jeez Louise... add the tiniest bit of red tint to all those yellow shirts, and you get...orange. Hare Krishna, Hare potential, Hare char-ac-ter...[/quote]
      I was thinking "Moonies" when I saw the video.[/quote][/li][/list]
    • Originally posted on 21 Mar 2009:
      Quote from: "what a fool believes"
      Quote from: "Nathan Hale Bopp"
      Quote
      Songwriters' Workshop headed by Don Cook and Michael McDonald
      "What a fool believes, no wise man has the power to reason away."

      Tell the truth, who's been foolin' you?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7vImjEQDVc
      From Alumni News, Spring/Summer 2008:

      2007
      . . .
      Dylan McDonald and his band, the Avians, opened for his father, Grammy Award winner Michael McDonald, at the Bank of America Pavilion Theater in Boston in September. Dylan appeared on stage wearing a bright yellow HYDE t-shirt in front of thousands of fans! His band performed an opening set while the big screens flashed our name (and his face) over and over again.
      . . .

      http://www.hyde.edu/ftpimages/107/downl ... 328339.pdf
    • Originally posted on 27 Mar 2009:
      Quote from: "Guest"
      Quote
      It is not uncommon for Hyde families to keep the school shield and the Five Principles posted on the refrigerator door in the family kitchen.
      :rofl:  make sure you get one of those yellow t-shirts to wear when you scream out "go hyde" at public gatherings
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    Offline none-ya

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    Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
    « Reply #25 on: December 18, 2010, 03:09:56 AM »
    Actually, the seed t shirts were white with dark green lettering. And the licence plates were the same color as the t shirt in the pic.
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    Offline none-ya

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    Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
    « Reply #26 on: December 18, 2010, 03:13:17 AM »
    And by the way Ursus,none of the links in your last post work anymore.
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    Offline seamus

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    Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
    « Reply #27 on: December 18, 2010, 09:15:47 AM »
    cult,schmult says I........ :rofl:

                                                    LETS HAVE A SONG!!!!!!

                              If your a cult and you know it,clap yer hands(c'mon sing along!)
                              If your a cult and you know it ,clap yer hands
                              If your a cult and you know it, then my cock you gotta blow it
                              If your a cult and you know it,clap yer hands.


                                                        This has been a public service announcement......with guitars.....
                                                brought to you by the Seamus Republican Army, and sponsered, in part by Guinness stout.
                               
                                                                                                     Go Figure :roflmao:
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    It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad

    Offline seamus

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    Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
    « Reply #28 on: December 18, 2010, 09:24:17 AM »
    What a post....he makes fun of,or reference to: the overuse of cult, a straight song(with parody included,at no extra charge)  The IRA , The Clash......himself AND his own drinking problem.....all in one swipe......and its 8.20 am...wheeeee
    « Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
    It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad