The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Whooter]

If we look at the escort services themselves they don’t mention kidnapping as part of their service.  There has not been one instance of a person being arrested for this activity nor an open investigation.  No amber alerts.  Besides a few people’s words here on fornits there is no evidence that any kidnapping has occurred which resulted in a child ending up in a program.



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[RobertBruce]

Again, you're ignoring that a person may call it whatever they like. It doesnt change that it fits the dictionary definition.

[Whooter]

Again, you're ignoring that a person may call it whatever they like. It doesnt change that it fits the dictionary definition.

Exactly, RB, thats my point.  People here can call events anything they want.  Being forced to clean their room can be called abusive, being taken to school by escort service can be called Kidnapping, having to stay in their room can be called "Isolation".

But by doing this they risk their credibility.  That is the point I am trying to make.  People shouldn't call things anything they want if they are going to be viewed as credible.



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[RobertBruce]

Exactly, RB, thats my point. People here can call events anything they want. Being forced to clean their room can be called abusive, being taken to school by escort service can be called Kidnapping, having to stay in their room can be called "Isolation".

But by doing this they risk their credibility. That is the point I am trying to make. People shouldn't call things anything they want if they are going to be viewed as credible.

Maybe, but many of the claims the survivors make on here fit not only the dictionary definition, but the legal definition of it as well. Being physically beaten, made to perform back breaking labor for hours on end, having your food rationed, be screamed at incessantly, being spit at and told youre a horrible person, kept in substandard or disgusting living conditions, having your sleep deprived, given hack therapy, having your communication restricted, told "we won't let you go until you give in and agree with us", it all falls under the legal definition of abuse, and it all happens in programs.

The same way being kept in a room alone for days on end with no outside contact fits the legal definition of isolation.

I'll tell you what, if you can find a post made from a person on here who was an actual survivor claiming that they were made to wash dishes, or sent to their room and are calling it abuse then I'll agree with you. Until then I've never seen nor heard of a survivor being such a baby over something so trivial.

[Whooter]

Maybe, but many of the claims the survivors make on here fit not only the dictionary definition, but the legal definition of it as well. Being physically beaten, made to perform back breaking labor for hours on end, having your food rationed, be screamed at incessantly, being spit at and told youre a horrible person, kept in substandard or disgusting living conditions, having your sleep deprived, given hack therapy, having your communication restricted, told "we won't let you go until you give in and agree with us", it all falls under the legal definition of abuse, and it all happens in programs.

There is no doubt in my mind that kids have been abused in programs.  I have read enough of the stories and claims inside and outside of fornits to conclude that some programs are abusive.  But what drives a survivor to embellish their stories with Gulag,inmate, prison etc.?  The GAO investigators or the families never mentioned these descriptors.

If someone screamed and spit at me I would want to say it was Jim Morrison at XYZ Program who did this to me.  Be honest and straight forward and factual about it.  To say I was abused by prison guards while I was an inmate at the local Gulag just lacks credibility to me and I think to most people who would hear this.

Why embellish it further to tarnish your own credibility?



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[RobertBruce]

If the shoe fits......

The fact is the terms these kids are using are appropriate for the situation. They aren't exaggerating, they're simply using relatable words and situations to describe their expereince.

Any luck on finding a post where a child called washing dishes or being sent to his room abuse?

[Shadyacres]

If the shoe fits......

The fact is the terms these kids are using are appropriate for the situation. They aren't exaggerating, they're simply using relatable words and situations to describe their expereince.

Any luck on finding a post where a child called washing dishes or being sent to his room abuse?

 :tup:  :tup:

[Whooter]

If the shoe fits......

The fact is the terms these kids are using are appropriate for the situation. They aren't exaggerating, they're simply using relatable words and situations to describe their expereince.

We have come full circle.......and that is why I started this thread.  I think that survivors are hurting themselves and their credibility by using certain words to describe what happened to them, when in fact the events did not occur.  I understand that you do not agree with me and that is okay.  But maybe someone reading this will understand the next time he is speaking with someone about his/her experience that they choose their words carefully.  Words that reflect themselves and how they want to be portrayed.



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[RobertBruce]

by using certain words to describe what happened to them, when in fact the events did not occur.

That's what you keep missing Whooter. The events did occur.

Were you able ever to find a post from someone claiming washing dishes or being sent to their room was abusive?

[Whooter]

That's what you keep missing Whooter. The events did occur.

We disagree here and thats okay.

Were you able ever to find a post from someone claiming washing dishes or being sent to their room was abusive?

I never planned on looking.



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[RobertBruce]

We disagree here and thats okay.

Yes it is okay. However at the end of the day I was there and you were not. I experienced these things first hand, and I witnessed them happening to others, you did not. My testimony still bears more weight than yours in these matters.

I never planned on looking.

Then it would appear as if you don't have much to go on. If you can't provide an instance of a survivor actually lying about being abused, or even exaggerating, then why are you bringing any of this up?

[Whooter]

Yes it is okay. However at the end of the day I was there and you were not. I experienced these things first hand, and I witnessed them happening to others, you did not. My testimony still bears more weight than yours in these matters.

I dont agree with you on this.

Then it would appear as if you don't have much to go on. If you can't provide an instance of a survivor actually lying about being abused, or even exaggerating, then why are you bringing any of this up?

You are missing the whole point of this thread, RB.  I am not out to prove people are lying about being abused.  I understand the kids have been abused in these places.  I was pointing out that when posters exaggerate about being sent to a Gulag or being kidnapped that it hurts their credibility.  If they follow up with a story that they were abused then they may not be believed .  The person listening may feel they have to take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is risky to combine exaggeration with facts because it is hard to differentiate where the exaggeration ends and the facts begins.

If a person is truly hurt in one of these places why not just state the facts... xyz escort Service, xyz Program, Jim Palny abused me etc.  Why add all the drama about kidnapping, prisons and Gulags?  What is gained by it?


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[RobertBruce]

You are missing the whole point of this thread, RB. I am not out to prove people are lying about being abused. I understand the kids have been abused in these places. I was pointing out that when posters exaggerate about being sent to a Gulag or being kidnapped that it hurts their credibility. If they follow up with a story that they were abused then they may not be believed . The person listening may feel they have to take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is risky to combine exaggeration with facts because it is hard to differentiate where the exaggeration ends and the facts begins.

If a person is truly hurt in one of these places why not just state the facts... xyz escort Service, xyz Program, Jim Palny abused me etc. Why add all the drama about kidnapping, prisons and Gulags? What is gained by it?

I've got to say I'm surprised to hear you say this. It wasn't so long ago that you claimed that all kids who claimed to have been abused in a program were lying. Now you're claiming that they have been abused? Why the turn around?

As to your other comments, again it isn't an exaggeration. If a kid uses a relatable term to describe what he experienced or how he was abused he's not lying. You created this thread in effort to answer your charge that survivors lie, yet now you're claiming that you're not trying to prove that they do lie. Which is it?

[Whooter]

You are missing the whole point of this thread, RB. I am not out to prove people are lying about being abused. I understand the kids have been abused in these places. I was pointing out that when posters exaggerate about being sent to a Gulag or being kidnapped that it hurts their credibility. If they follow up with a story that they were abused then they may not be believed . The person listening may feel they have to take it with a grain of salt.

I think it is risky to combine exaggeration with facts because it is hard to differentiate where the exaggeration ends and the facts begins.

If a person is truly hurt in one of these places why not just state the facts... xyz escort Service, xyz Program, Jim Palny abused me etc. Why add all the drama about kidnapping, prisons and Gulags? What is gained by it?

I've got to say I'm surprised to hear you say this. It wasn't so long ago that you claimed that all kids who claimed to have been abused in a program were lying. Now you're claiming that they have been abused? Why the turn around?

Well, I have always made it clear that some of the programs are abusive and kids do get abused in these places.  I just contend that the number is very small.  I have written a lot of posts here on fornits but I think you would be hard pressed to find one that says no kids have been abused in programs unless it was tongue-in-cheek.

As to your other comments, again it isn't an exaggeration. If a kid uses a relatable term to describe what he experienced or how he was abused he's not lying. You created this thread in effort to answer your charge that survivors lie, yet now you're claiming that you're not trying to prove that they do lie. Which is it?[/quote]

I think in effect the advice will help survivors credibility. I have  heard that they are viewed as lying druggies from survivors themselves here on fornits.  I was pointing out that one of the problems is that they exaggerate too much and should be more truthful with the description of the events in the program.



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[Watchful Yeoman]

I was pointing out that one of the problems is that they exaggerate too much and should be more truthful

I fabricated a son

 :rofl:  :roflmao:  :rofl:  :roflmao:  :rofl:  :roflmao:  :feedtrolls: