The smoking gun - do survivors lie?

[Gonzotherapy]

I am still curious Whooter. Where exactly have you found a lie. It seems a little ridiculous that you start a thread about survivors lying, and of all the posts you have made have not identified one single lie. Even the post I made, the only post in this entire thread that cited a real example, still could be my perspective over someone elses, there were about three hundred kids there that day. In addition, that really wasn't about abuse, it was about a dog. I have witnessed and experienced myself many levels of abuse. And since we seem to keep going back to the kidnapping versus escort, I think the only reason it is not legally considered kidnapping because of the loophole they've been able to exploit in respect to classifying kids as mental patients. If a parent put their kids in handcuffs or zipties they would be charged with abuse, no matter how out of control that kid was. As far as comparing it to cops arresting kids, if they had broken the law they would be arrested, and prisoners are treated better than the kids in these programs. It is a loophole they've been able to use, that doesn't make it right. I think you said it best yourself when you remarked that Nazis called the rounding up of Jews into concentration camps as "relocation". I'm sure you don't see it that way though, you sound like the kind of person that supports Naziism and you probably think the Holocaust wasn't real.

[Whooter]

The Nazi's shipped millions of Jews to death camps, but they called it "relocation". Why is that?

If you study the Nazi relocation program and systematic  extermination of the Jews you would read that these people were asked to pack up their personal belongings (what they could carry) and hop on a truck or train to be relocated.  They were not Kidnapped, they went willingly.

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EXACTLY!  Parents willingly hire "escort services" to take their kid away to a totalitarian thought reform camp.  Just like the jews who thought they were just being relocated, they are completely oblivious to reality until it is too late.

So we finally agree "Escorts".  If you ever listen to a Jewish survivor of the holocaust you will notice that they dont try to lie about what happened to them.  They dont tell everyone that they were kidnapped or say things that are not true.  Most of their stories have been confirmed through records and document seized from the Germans.

If you took the stories of survivors here on fornits you would stumble on finding any documented evidence that the person was kidnapped.  There would be no FBI case no amber alert, no police records and no kids reporting kidnappings after they left the program.  So their whole story just falls apart and the kid loses what  credibility he/she had.

@ Anne Bonney: Regarding changing the story from 12 hours to 6 hours (and the rest of the quote), if you read my post you would understand why that was done.  



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[Anne Bonney]

So we finally agree "Escorts".  If you ever listen to a Jewish survivor of the holocaust you will notice that they dont try to lie about what happened to them.  They dont tell everyone that they were kidnapped or say things that are not true.  Most of their stories have been confirmed through records and document seized from the Germans.

If you took the stories of survivors here on fornits you would stumble on finding any documented evidence that the person was kidnapped.  There would be no FBI case no amber alert, no police records and no kids reporting kidnappings after they left the program.  So their whole story just falls apart and the kid loses what  credibility he/she had.

So, you're still playing the semantics game I see.

@ Anne Bonney: Regarding changing the story from 12 hours to 6 hours (and the rest of the quote), if you read my post you would understand why that was done.  

Explain it to me like I'm a complete idiot (like you don't already consider me to be so), cuz I still don't understand why you did it.

[Gonzotherapy]

I thought I just went over that, no there are no reports, because their parents the, legal guardians, hire someone to kidnap them. I am sure that cooperative kids were treated better than uncooperative ones, throughout the program I saw that to be true. My point remains though, the mental patient loophole. If a parent handcuffed their kid in the back of a car and got caught, they would get arrested. Just because they found a way around the law, doesn't make it right. I still don't see how this constitutes as a lie. The reason people went to brightway before going to Samoa is so they could effectively break them first, I guarantee you things would have not gone so smoothly for them if they tried to put kids straight on a plane over to Samoa against their will. Just because they are intelligent enough to find ways to legally kidnap, doesn't make it any less wrong. Where is the lie? You started a thread about Survivor Lies, but you have shown nothing to prove a single lie. A broad generalization, how about one specific instance. If what they do is so benign, why is there no videotape of these "escorts". Why wouldn't they show that they are doing nothing wrong, especially because they are facing millions of dollars in lawsuits over the allegations. I know why they don't have videotapes of it, because if they showed what really went on, they would not only be facing civil suits, they would be facing criminal charges for kidnapping, because that's what it is.

[Whooter]

I am still curious Whooter. Where exactly have you found a lie.

I posted them on page 8 and then again a page or 2 back.

 

It seems a little ridiculous that you start a thread about survivors lying, and of all the posts you have made have not identified one single lie. Even the post I made, the only post in this entire thread that cited a real example, still could be my perspective over someone elses, there were about three hundred kids there that day. In addition, that really wasn't about abuse, it was about a dog. I have witnessed and experienced myself many levels of abuse. And since we seem to keep going back to the kidnapping versus escort, I think the only reason it is not legally considered kidnapping because of the loophole they've been able to exploit in respect to classifying kids as mental patients.

So someone catches you in a lie and says: why did you call your escort kidnapping?  and then you go on about some loop hole because you are classified as a mental patient the reader is going to think you are some kind of nut.  Why not just tell them you were hog tied and taken to the program by an escort service?  Why risk getting caught lying or having them think you are a mental patient?

 

If a parent put their kids in handcuffs or zipties they would be charged with abuse, no matter how out of control that kid was. As far as comparing it to cops arresting kids, if they had broken the law they would be arrested, and prisoners are treated better than the kids in these programs. It is a loophole they've been able to use, that doesn't make it right. I think you said it best yourself when you remarked that Nazis called the rounding up of Jews into concentration camps as "relocation". I'm sure you don't see it that way though, you sound like the kind of person that supports Naziism and you probably think the Holocaust wasn't real.

I think it was ShaddyAcres who called it "relocation" originally but it doesnt matter.  Why do you make broad statements like that against people you dont know in the middle of a discussion?  Now you consider me a supporter of the Nazis who thinks the holocaust never happened.  So now when you turn around and try to sell us on the idea that you were abused in a program or tell your story what are we to believe?  That you are mad at the program and believe them to be evil like you think I am (because the program didnt agree with you) and therefore you feel justified in making up  stories about your program to make them look bad like you just did to me?



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[Gonzotherapy]

Why don't you mention that to your program buddies. It's cheap to tape everything now, so why don't they do it. Cops do it to protect themselves from lawsuits. Maybe the programs should as well. You would think, since they are doing nothing wrong and all these accusations are lies, that they would be happy to do so. If not to appease the doubters out there, they should do it to save their own asses. Real easy to prove that these kids (who you still have not identified or quoted one single instance of a lie) are liars. Programs are still operating, still "escorting" kids, why not prove to the courts that are breathing down their necks as we speak, that all of this is legal and these accusations are lies?

[Gonzotherapy]

Oh, I'm sorry, where did I lie? I'm the one making things up? Where's your proof of that. My program was shut down for allegations of abuse (Paradise Cove, Brightway, look that up), the sister programs in Mexico, Jamaica, and Costa Rica shut down because of allegations of abuse. Lets not forget that some of these programs are in third world countries and were shut down by their governments. Don't you think it is a little odd that a program that is perfectly within the law gets shut down? Over and over and over and over. The only way they are able to re-open is by switching up ownership and playing little legal games. Their tactics are so shady that they are facing a 100,000,000 dollar lawsuit. Prove that one word of what I said is a lie.

Yes allegations. I know that's where you are going. But if these allegations are so unfounded, why are these programs repeatedly getting shut down. They could easily prove their innocence by letting authorities in, or by videotaping to prove these kids are lying. Do you think that will happen? Of course not. You know it and I know it. They could prove these kids are lying in a heartbeat, IF THEY WERE LYING!!! But since they're not, that makes it a little more difficult.

And I am so sorry for calling you a Nazi, if you didn't sound like such a fascist I wouldn't have made the remark. Your wordplay and attempts to discredit are very indicative of Mein Kampf, of course without the intelligence.

[Gonzotherapy]

O.K. I reviwed your posts on pg. 2 and 10. I see you making a statement and then calling that statement that you made a lie. So, why do survivors need to lie? Can you please quote one lie and show some evidence to support that, all I see is what you said, thats it.

[Whooter]

Why don't you mention that to your program buddies. It's cheap to tape everything now, so why don't they do it. Cops do it to protect themselves from lawsuits. Maybe the programs should as well. You would think, since they are doing nothing wrong and all these accusations are lies, that they would be happy to do so. If not to appease the doubters out there, they should do it to save their own asses. Real easy to prove that these kids (who you still have not identified or quoted one single instance of a lie) are liars. Programs are still operating, still "escorting" kids, why not prove to the courts that are breathing down their necks as we speak, that all of this is legal and these accusations are lies?

I am sure you have more program buddies than I do, Gonzo.  But I am not sure what you mean?  Tape what?  I don't think the programs have any problem with the kids calling the escorts services kidnapping.  I dont think they care that they are called Gulags.  These are names that the kids who didn't do well in programs call them.  The majority of the kids, which did well,have no reason to try to discredit the program or risk discrediting themselves.

The courts dont need to look far to find the escorts.  They can do a google search like this... Escort



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[Whooter]

This is the 3rd time so I may get tagged for flooding:
 Here are a few of them:

Link
My daughter's best friend was kidnapped at the end of August 2004 and taken to Aspen. We just got a letter from him. He hates the place. His father says he will be there for THREE MORE YEARS. His name is Jesse Zipperman. Did you meet him? How can we communicate with him, GET HIM OUT OF THERE. His father is a psycologist with a very smooth-talking story.
Link
My particular ordeal began with being kidnapped and shipped there as so many.

Link
I am reaching the end of my teen years, but already, kids from that age range, look like babies. I can't understand the twisted thinking that goes into having a 13 year old-- this girl weighed about 70 lbs, and was 4 feet ten---kidnapped and institutionalized. Every time I see a kid I know is her age at the time of the abduction and torture, I get physically ill. not just sad, physically ill.

Link
Kids are kidnapped and forced into agrarian labor all the time.



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[Gonzotherapy]

And why are those lies. Kidnap-verb (used with object), -napped or -naped, -nap·ping or -nap·ing.  
to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud.

How is it again that these are lies?

[Gonzotherapy]

And I am sure that they don't have a problem with these accusations. Especially because they enjoy all of the effort involved in shutting these programs down, relocating their captives, and jumping through hoops to re-open under different names and ownership. I know plenty of people who left the program on higher levels, myself included, that KNOW these programs are abusive.

I'm sorry, where is your proof that these are lies?

[Gonzotherapy]

I graduated both seminars, they called them Discovery and Focus when I was in, I staffed seminars and was one week from moving up to level 4 (junior staff) from the family leader position when I left. And that was actually doing pretty well for a 1 year stay. So for you to say that all people who lie about this abuse, which you accuse me of, were people who didn't do well. I did very well. So what is your new story?

[Whooter]

And I am sure that they don't have a problem with these accusations. Especially because they enjoy all of the effort involved in shutting these programs down, relocating their captives, and jumping through hoops to re-open under different names and ownership. I know plenty of people who left the program on higher levels, myself included, that KNOW these programs are abusive.

I'm sorry, where is your proof that these are lies?

Where are you getting the idea that I think these places are not abusive.  I understand that there are programs that are abusive.  What I dont understand is why people need to exaggerate or lie about their experience.  If the truth was that bad why not tell the truth?  



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[Gonzotherapy]

It has been established throughout the Troubled Teen industry that the graduates and non graduates who did not do well have a need to embellish or lie about their time spent at one or more of the programs.  


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Who has established this? I guarantee I can find more kids that would testify that the truth is kidnapping, abuse, brainwashing, etc... Than you could find saying they were liars. Or are we just going to take the word of staff that these kids are liars? The people who have everything to lose if the allegations are true. Of course, if they had actually been abusive they would just admit it, right? They wouldn't try to discredit the accusers by hiring somebody to sit and babysit forums twisting words and making incredibly broad unfounded allegations of lies. I think I should call them up and let them know they are over-paying you. You are a miserable failure at discrediting anything.